2. The UK is ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and Salvini is set to win a landslide in the autumn in the Italian general election to send migrant boats back to Africa. .
Two points - first, we are already seeing an increase in attempted crossings of the Channel by migrants and no doubt that will continue post 31/10. Second, the aspect of the proposed immigration policy about which I'm unclear is the status of dependants.
It's all very wll saying we need more scientists and that's fine but does the system mean the scientist can bring over 25 of his or her immediate family and allow them to settle here as well?
If the rumours re-Philip Lee are true, the Tories will be down to 311 seats (including Elphicke) by mid- September. Had that been the outcome at the June 2017 election, I wonder whether Theresa May would have responded differently. Would she even have bothered to arrive at an arrangement with the DUP?
'Yes' seems to cover it. Particularly as no other party could have formed a government and she certainly wouldn't have wanted a further election.
Note that this poll, in common with many others, needed to be reweighted because Survation did not find enough Leavers. This may mean that some Leavers are hard to find, it may mean that some Leavers have forgotten or are lying about how they voted or it may mean that some Leavers are now shy.
There is a distinct possibility that Remainers’ views are being discounted too much in such polls.
Last night, Alastair, you said something along the lines of the deal on the table was derailed by leavers. The deal on the table was mostly derailed by Labour, and they've now come out as remainers.
'May's deal' has to be a lesson is how not to negotiate. I'm not quite sure that I've managed to digest that lesson yet.
With regards to your post. Hesitant Remainers are probably under-represented. If so then that would explain stronger LD performance.
The deal on the table would have sailed through if it had not been trashed by Leavers. Remainers had no motivation to invest political capital in it when all that would happen is that they would be setting up the next target of claims of betrayal from the headbangers. The headbangers’ support was needed to ensure it commanded Leaver legitimacy.
Conservative Remainers backed it in the main. Labour Remainers were not going to break ranks when the deal was obviously not going to pass. Why take unnecessary grief?
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
PS I’m getting a bit fed up at the way that death cult Leavers keep claiming I was opposed to the deal. I repeatedly said I would vote for it.
I apologise if I've misrepresented you. I'm not a death cult Leaver though - you can apologise for that implication.
Prepare for all hell to break loose in Totnes in 3...2...1
She'd have a very good chance of retaining the seat imo. The LDs ran a close 2nd to Con in the four elections before 2015.
Nice to have a real marginal fight! She had a big personal vote, but has lost a lot of credibility outside the town with her crazy Brexit swings. There are also a lot of activists pissed that she lied to them in 2017.
Surely they are free to put whatever conditions they want in the way of a free trade agreement?
Personally, I hope they do, I don't want a trade deal with the US (not a slight on the people who are delightful). I object to her making public pronouncements on a British policy matter.
You're a brexiter right? So that's no to the EU and to the US. Tonga awaits.
Surely they are free to put whatever conditions they want in the way of a free trade agreement?
Personally, I hope they do, I don't want a trade deal with the US (not a slight on the people who are delightful). I object to her making public pronouncements on a British policy matter.
You're a brexiter right? So that's no to the EU and to the US. Tonga awaits.
I thought most Leavers wanted a trade deal with the EU? It's the political side they don't want.
And I'm sure the former candidate and entire local party will be utterly delighted about this.
How could I ever doubt it?
I'm quite certain the local party and the national LD party will have had conversations about this and the implications. There will be some discontent locally but, with due respect to Julian Brazil, the best placed candidate to stop the Conservatives holding Totnes is probably Sarah Wollaston and if she wants to fight under LD colours I'm comfortable with that.
Surely they are free to put whatever conditions they want in the way of a free trade agreement?
Personally, I hope they do, I don't want a trade deal with the US (not a slight on the people who are delightful). I object to her making public pronouncements on a British policy matter.
You're a brexiter right? So that's no to the EU and to the US. Tonga awaits.
I thought most Leavers wanted a trade deal with the EU? It's the political side they don't want.
You haven't been paying attention. The merest mention of any accommodation with the EU is a sign of collaboration.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
If the rumours re-Philip Lee are true, the Tories will be down to 311 seats (including Elphicke) by mid- September. Had that been the outcome at the June 2017 election, I wonder whether Theresa May would have responded differently. Would she even have bothered to arrive at an arrangement with the DUP?
'Yes' seems to cover it. Particularly as no other party could have formed a government and she certainly wouldn't have wanted a further election.
But such an arrangement would barely yield a majority at all - being just a defection or by election loss away from losing it. She might have been more inclined, when faced with such arithmetic ,to reach out more to the other parties and so avoid being beholden to the DUP. The problems she encountered with the 'Backstop' might not then have dragged her down in quite the same way.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
And I'm sure the former candidate and entire local party will be utterly delighted about this.
How could I ever doubt it?
I'm quite certain the local party and the national LD party will have had conversations about this and the implications. There will be some discontent locally but, with due respect to Julian Brazil, the best placed candidate to stop the Conservatives holding Totnes is probably Sarah Wollaston and if she wants to fight under LD colours I'm comfortable with that.
And I'm sure the former candidate and entire local party will be utterly delighted about this.
How could I ever doubt it?
I'm quite certain the local party and the national LD party will have had conversations about this and the implications. There will be some discontent locally but, with due respect to Julian Brazil, the best placed candidate to stop the Conservatives holding Totnes is probably Sarah Wollaston and if she wants to fight under LD colours I'm comfortable with that.
I hope you're right. I just wonder what the consequences will be if you're wrong.
Note that this poll, in common with many others, needed to be reweighted because Survation did not find enough Leavers. This may mean that some Leavers are hard to find, it may mean that some Leavers have forgotten or are lying about how they voted or it may mean that some Leavers are now shy.
There is a distinct possibility that Remainers’ views are being discounted too much in such polls.
Last night, Alastair, you said something along the lines of the deal on the table was derailed by leavers. The deal on the table was mostly derailed by Labour, and they've now come out as remainers.
'May's deal' has to be a lesson is how not to negotiate. I'm not quite sure that I've managed to digest that lesson yet.
With regards to your post. Hesitant Remainers are probably under-represented. If so then that would explain stronger LD performance.
The deal on the table would have sailed through if it had not been trashed by Leavers. Remainers had no motivation to invest political capital in it when all that would happen is that they would be setting up the next target of claims of betrayal from the headbangers. The headbangers’ support was needed to ensure it commanded Leaver legitimacy.
Conservative Remainers backed it in the main. Labour Remainers were not going to break ranks when the deal was obviously not going to pass. Why take unnecessary grief?
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
PS I’m getting a bit fed up at the way that death cult Leavers keep claiming I was opposed to the deal. I repeatedly said I would vote for it.
I apologise if I've misrepresented you. I'm not a death cult Leaver though - you can apologise for that implication.
Your claiming of a mandate for a course of action that was expressly disavowed during the referendum campaign by Leavers and which would be hugely damaging puts you four square in the death cult Leaver camp. Your willingness to invent motives for others with different views is symptomatic of the mania.
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
If the rumours re-Philip Lee are true, the Tories will be down to 311 seats (including Elphicke) by mid- September. Had that been the outcome at the June 2017 election, I wonder whether Theresa May would have responded differently. Would she even have bothered to arrive at an arrangement with the DUP?
'Yes' seems to cover it. Particularly as no other party could have formed a government and she certainly wouldn't have wanted a further election.
But such an arrangement would barely yield a majority at all - being just a defection or by election loss away from losing it. She might have been more inclined, when faced with such arithmetic ,to reach out more to the other parties and so avoid being beholden to the DUP. The problems she encountered with the 'Backstop' might not then have dragged her down in quite the same way.
What other parties? The only other parties who would have made a significant difference to the arithmetic were Labour and the SNP, both of whom have consistently rebuffed any attempt to reach out from the Tories. At the same time no other coalition which didn't involve at least one of the Tories and DUP could command a majority.
So it was this form, or fresh elections, even on your figures. And she would not have wanted a fresh election when Labour were riding high.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Most Brexiteers still think Britain is entitled to a successful Brexit, therefore even its evident failure cannot convince them that it was a mistake.
2. The UK is ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and Salvini is set to win a landslide in the autumn in the Italian general election to send migrant boats back to Africa. .
Two points - first, we are already seeing an increase in attempted crossings of the Channel by migrants and no doubt that will continue post 31/10. Second, the aspect of the proposed immigration policy about which I'm unclear is the status of dependants.
It's all very wll saying we need more scientists and that's fine but does the system mean the scientist can bring over 25 of his or her immediate family and allow them to settle here as well?
On HYUFD's point 2 - none of the southern EU states wish for the migrants to be dumped on their doorsteps. The flag of the ships "rescuing" the shipwrecks should really be charting planes to pick the refugees up from the nearest airport.
Yes I know some parts of Northern Africa aren't safe places to be but most of these "refugees" have safely travelled across the entire unsafe area to pay for a dodgy boat to take them to be "rescued". They really should be being sent directly back where they came.
Get used to it. This is how the UK will be treated in future.
I'm not sure it will be (in this circumstance).
Re Pelosi, remember that these are American politicians playing to Irish-American voters, and the still-modestly-powerful Irish American lobby (the lobby is obviously not THAT powerful, anymore, or Trump and Bolton would not feel able to make these breezily pro-Brexit remarks).
At the moment, coming out for the GFA and Ireland is an easy vote-winner, and it sounds morally correct. And quite possibly it is morally correct.
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Most Brexiteers still think Britain is entitled to a successful Brexit.
It just adds insult to injury. It's their project. Own the success, if any, and the failure.
A thing called by MPs because they couldn't decide, and yet now of no importance?
Labour are now completely denying the relevance of the result of the referendum. The LDs have gone one step further - they're completely denying that it ever took place. The SNP are simply a party of traitors (I'm happy that they should be allowed to be so).
Tories could have signed up to Labour's deal, which respected the result of the referendum. They didn't, and they couldn't maintain party discipline to pass their own deal. That is why we are where we are now. Neither I nor the Labour Party have denied that the referendum took place, although personally I wish it hadn't - look what a hole we are in now. To be honest, your post has absolutely no logical connection to mine. Are you sure you are responding under the right post?
Surely they are free to put whatever conditions they want in the way of a free trade agreement?
Personally, I hope they do, I don't want a trade deal with the US (not a slight on the people who are delightful). I object to her making public pronouncements on a British policy matter.
She’s entitled to make pronouncements on the GFA since the US is one of the guarantors.
Get used to it. This is how the UK will be treated in future.
I'm not sure it will be (in this circumstance).
Re Pelosi, remember that these are American politicians playing to Irish-American voters, and the still-modestly-powerful Irish American lobby (the lobby is obviously not THAT powerful, anymore, or Trump and Bolton would not feel able to make these breezily pro-Brexit remarks).
At the moment, coming out for the GFA and Ireland is an easy vote-winner, and it sounds morally correct. And quite possibly it is morally correct.
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
So first the EU is guilty of bluffing and bluster and now the US is. That's some assumption.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
With @Luckyguy1983 and now @Byronic and no doubt many more we are seeing the brexiter agenda. Plus we begin to understand what a brexiter map would like. The UK huge and at the centre with every other nation tiny and sprinkled around us in awe of our divine power and subservient to us.
Surely they are free to put whatever conditions they want in the way of a free trade agreement?
Personally, I hope they do, I don't want a trade deal with the US (not a slight on the people who are delightful). I object to her making public pronouncements on a British policy matter.
You're a brexiter right? So that's no to the EU and to the US. Tonga awaits.
I thought most Leavers wanted a trade deal with the EU? It's the political side they don't want.
We all want a trade deal with the US. Just not one that is to our disadvantage.
If the rumours re-Philip Lee are true, the Tories will be down to 311 seats (including Elphicke) by mid- September. Had that been the outcome at the June 2017 election, I wonder whether Theresa May would have responded differently. Would she even have bothered to arrive at an arrangement with the DUP?
'Yes' seems to cover it. Particularly as no other party could have formed a government and she certainly wouldn't have wanted a further election.
But such an arrangement would barely yield a majority at all - being just a defection or by election loss away from losing it. She might have been more inclined, when faced with such arithmetic ,to reach out more to the other parties and so avoid being beholden to the DUP. The problems she encountered with the 'Backstop' might not then have dragged her down in quite the same way.
What other parties? The only other parties who would have made a significant difference to the arithmetic were Labour and the SNP, both of whom have consistently rebuffed any attempt to reach out from the Tories. At the same time no other coalition which didn't involve at least one of the Tories and DUP could command a majority.
So it was this form, or fresh elections, even on your figures. And she would not have wanted a fresh election when Labour were riding high.
But she might have proceeded simply as a Minority Government on an issue by issue basis. Would the LibDems or Lady Hermon have wanted another election so soon? I am not sure that after their serious reverse in 2017 that the SNP would have been particularly keen either. Admittedly Labour might have put the other parties on the spot by tabling a VNOC!
With @Luckyguy1983 and now @Byronic and no doubt many more we are seeing the brexiter agenda. Plus we begin to understand what a brexiter map would like. The UK huge and at the centre with every other nation tiny and sprinkled around us in awe of our divine power and subservient to us.
How dare an American politician pronounce on a US-UK trade deal, which is clearly a British matter.
Surely they are free to put whatever conditions they want in the way of a free trade agreement?
Personally, I hope they do, I don't want a trade deal with the US (not a slight on the people who are delightful). I object to her making public pronouncements on a British policy matter.
She’s entitled to make pronouncements on the GFA since the US is one of the guarantors.
More to the point, if a US trade deal isn't the business of the Speaker of the US House of Representatives, whose business is it? Some random dude on the internet?
Surely they are free to put whatever conditions they want in the way of a free trade agreement?
Personally, I hope they do, I don't want a trade deal with the US (not a slight on the people who are delightful). I object to her making public pronouncements on a British policy matter.
She’s entitled to make pronouncements on the GFA since the US is one of the guarantors.
So US frat boys can spend their Spring Break manning the checkpoints alongside the British schoolleavers on their compulsory gap year.
At last we have a coherent, workable solution to the border question.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
You're still not understanding the posts you're replying to at all, are you?
No I am even if you dislike any poll showing support for Brexit
You just don't seem to be understanding what other people are posting at all.
No I understand you are a diehard Remainer and I understand you want to stop Brexit, if you don't like a contrary view tough
No, evidently you don't even understand that.
I'm not a diehard remainer, I just think it would be suicidal for us to leave without a deal. I think the best outcome would be to leave with a deal.
Just to clarify, the reason I think that is because both the other courses - No Deal or Revoke - would be absolutely disastrous politically, because about half the population - or at any rate half the people who care about it - would be outraged in each case.
I think, setting aside self-seeking politicians, most people would not be too unhappy for us to leave the political structures but to continue to participate in the economic aspects. It's just tragic that politicians of all colours have been too concerned with their own narrow advantage to arrive at a reasonable compromise.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
With @Luckyguy1983 and now @Byronic and no doubt many more we are seeing the brexiter agenda. Plus we begin to understand what a brexiter map would like. The UK huge and at the centre with every other nation tiny and sprinkled around us in awe of our divine power and subservient to us.
You're having an episode. I said no such thing. I said realpolitik will prevail, as it always does:
Britain is the 6th largest economy, important military ally, owner of crucial American bases, vital intelligence partner, huge economic investor in the US. And, with all due respect to Ireland, Ireland is none of these things.
The Merikans are not going to fight with us over a Border *issue* which will, in all likelihood, be solved anyway, post Brexit. It's not in THEIR interest.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
There's a lot hinging on your "in time".
Suppose a fix doesn't come, at least not before massive damage to the Irish economy and the border communities. Bearing in mind that the Leavers plan for the border is to invite the EU to abandon their Single Market and Customs Union (ie no plan at all) this seems more likely than your optimistic scenario.
The ill-feeling this will generate should not be underestimated.
The Liberal Democrats are propping up the Tories in lots of local councils, not least in Jo Swinson’s East Dunbartonshire. Will they be leaving these arrangements to increase pressure on the Tories regarding No Deal?
There are all sorts of bizarre arrangements in local councils, to ensure that business gets done. When I was a student in the NE, back in around 1960 there was alleged to be an informal arrangement in one council between the local Ratepayers and the Communists.
Liberal Democrats are propping up the Tories in lots of local councils, not least in Jo Swinson’s East Dunbartonshire. Will they be leaving these arrangements to increase pressure on the Tories regarding No Deal?
There are all sorts of bizarre arrangements in local councils, to ensure that business gets done. When I was a student in the NE, back in around 1960 there was alleged to be an informal arrangement in one council between the local Ratepayers and the Communists.
Yes, I do see the squirrel.
However, returning to my original query: the Liberal Democrats are propping up the Tories in lots of local councils, not least in Jo Swinson’s East Dunbartonshire. Will they be leaving these arrangements to increase pressure on the Tories regarding No Deal?
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
With @Luckyguy1983 and now @Byronic and no doubt many more we are seeing the brexiter agenda. Plus we begin to understand what a brexiter map would like. The UK huge and at the centre with every other nation tiny and sprinkled around us in awe of our divine power and subservient to us.
You're having an episode. I said no such thing. I said realpolitik will prevail, as it always does:
Britain is the 6th largest economy, important military ally, owner of crucial American bases, vital intelligence partner, huge economic investor in the US. And, with all due respect to Ireland, Ireland is none of these things.
The Merikans are not going to fight with us over a Border *issue* which will, in all likelihood, be solved anyway, post Brexit. It's not in THEIR interest.
They can make their interest whatever they choose. China is no backwater either and they seem to have no problem fucking with them.
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
There's a lot hinging on your "in time".
Suppose a fix doesn't come, at least not before massive damage to the Irish economy and the border communities. Bearing in mind that the Leavers plan for the border is to invite the EU to abandon their Single Market and Customs Union (ie no plan at all) this seems more likely than your optimistic scenario.
The ill-feeling this will generate should not be underestimated.
I don't underestimate it. This should all have been avoided. I also believe that, in the end, a solution will be found. Vanishingly few want to return to the Troubles.
Britain will not erect Border Posts. Ireland won't. The EU might want to, but surely can't. The solution, of necessity, will be a bureaucratic fudge (if Brexit, or No Deal Brexit, happens at all).
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
The Liberal Democrats are propping up the Tories in lots of local councils, not least in Jo Swinson’s East Dunbartonshire. Will they be leaving these arrangements to increase pressure on the Tories regarding No Deal?
There are all sorts of bizarre arrangements in local councils, to ensure that business gets done. When I was a student in the NE, back in around 1960 there was alleged to be an informal arrangement in one council between the local Ratepayers and the Communists.
Liberal Democrats are propping up the Tories in lots of local councils, not least in Jo Swinson’s East Dunbartonshire. Will they be leaving these arrangements to increase pressure on the Tories regarding No Deal?
There are all sorts of bizarre arrangements in local councils, to ensure that business gets done. When I was a student in the NE, back in around 1960 there was alleged to be an informal arrangement in one council between the local Ratepayers and the Communists.
Yes, I do see the squirrel.
However, returning to my original query: the Liberal Democrats are propping up the Tories in lots of local councils, not least in Jo Swinson’s East Dunbartonshire. Will they be leaving these arrangements to increase pressure on the Tories regarding No Deal?
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
There's a lot hinging on your "in time".
Suppose a fix doesn't come, at least not before massive damage to the Irish economy and the border communities. Bearing in mind that the Leavers plan for the border is to invite the EU to abandon their Single Market and Customs Union (ie no plan at all) this seems more likely than your optimistic scenario.
The ill-feeling this will generate should not be underestimated.
I don't underestimate it. This should all have been avoided. I also believe that, in the end, a solution will be found. Vanishingly few want to return to the Troubles.
Britain will not erect Border Posts. Ireland won't. The EU might want to, but surely can't. The solution, of necessity, will be a bureaucratic fudge (if Brexit, or No Deal Brexit, happens at all).
Ah I see. You don't understand how border checks could come about. All is a lot clearer about your posts now.
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
I don't think this is a fair characterisation of the period of our membership.
At the time of Maastricht, no-one would have said that we'd been lied into our then level of integration. Where it all went wrong was that staying out of the Euro gave many people the illusion that we weren't really in anything much at all, and that separating would merely be a case of saying to the rest, "You carry on and we'll get out of your way."
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
You seem to be forgetting the real issues with executing Brexit are the adverse impacts on trade and the economy. It turns out that the single market and customs union offer significant advantages that the the EU are not prepared to offer unless we agree to abide by the rules. Fancy that.
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
There's a lot hinging on your "in time".
Suppose a fix doesn't come, at least not before massive damage to the Irish economy and the border communities. Bearing in mind that the Leavers plan for the border is to invite the EU to abandon their Single Market and Customs Union (ie no plan at all) this seems more likely than your optimistic scenario.
The ill-feeling this will generate should not be underestimated.
I don't underestimate it. This should all have been avoided. I also believe that, in the end, a solution will be found. Vanishingly few want to return to the Troubles.
Britain will not erect Border Posts. Ireland won't. The EU might want to, but surely can't. The solution, of necessity, will be a bureaucratic fudge (if Brexit, or No Deal Brexit, happens at all).
Ah I see. You don't understand how border checks could come about. All is a lot clearer about your posts now.
Border checks will be done Away From The Border, nitwit. The EU already has a plan. Here, I'll save your sad, rheumy eyes from Googling:
'"Where will the controls be?" said a senior EU official in response to questions at a briefing on Monday. "The controls will have to be done where they belong. But that does not mean that we would want to see physical infrastructure at the border. We are working very closely with the Irish authorities to try and perform controls away from the border, if at all possible."'
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
There's a lot hinging on your "in time".
Suppose a fix doesn't come, at least not before massive damage to the Irish economy and the border communities. Bearing in mind that the Leavers plan for the border is to invite the EU to abandon their Single Market and Customs Union (ie no plan at all) this seems more likely than your optimistic scenario.
The ill-feeling this will generate should not be underestimated.
I don't underestimate it. This should all have been avoided. I also believe that, in the end, a solution will be found. Vanishingly few want to return to the Troubles.
Britain will not erect Border Posts. Ireland won't. The EU might want to, but surely can't. The solution, of necessity, will be a bureaucratic fudge (if Brexit, or No Deal Brexit, happens at all).
Ah I see. You don't understand how border checks could come about. All is a lot clearer about your posts now.
Border checks will be done Away From The Border, nitwit. The EU already has a plan. Here, I'll save your sad, rheumy eyes from Googling:
'"Where will the controls be?" said a senior EU official in response to questions at a briefing on Monday. "The controls will have to be done where they belong. But that does not mean that we would want to see physical infrastructure at the border. We are working very closely with the Irish authorities to try and perform controls away from the border, if at all possible."'
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
You seem to be forgetting the real issues with executing Brexit are the adverse impacts on trade and the economy. It turns out that the single market and customs union offer significant advantages that the the EU are not prepared to offer unless we agree to abide by the rules. Fancy that.
You take it as a given that there are significant advantages. There may be even more significant advanatages of other trading arrangements outside the EU, which you cannot countenance.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
A thing called by MPs because they couldn't decide, and yet now of no importance?
Labour are now completely denying the relevance of the result of the referendum. The LDs have gone one step further - they're completely denying that it ever took place. The SNP are simply a party of traitors (I'm happy that they should be allowed to be so).
Tories could have signed up to Labour's deal, which respected the result of the referendum. They didn't, and they couldn't maintain party discipline to pass their own deal. That is why we are where we are now. Neither I nor the Labour Party have denied that the referendum took place, although personally I wish it hadn't - look what a hole we are in now. To be honest, your post has absolutely no logical connection to mine. Are you sure you are responding under the right post?
Labour's proposals were pitched so that the Conservatives could not sign up to them.
I accept, that is a legitimate piece of low politics, but let's not pretend that Labour ever intended to strike a bargain with the Conservatives on this.
Labour's problem was that they did not expect so many of their supporters to abandon them, because of Brexit.
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
And I'm sure the former candidate and entire local party will be utterly delighted about this.
How could I ever doubt it?
I'm quite certain the local party and the national LD party will have had conversations about this and the implications. There will be some discontent locally but, with due respect to Julian Brazil, the best placed candidate to stop the Conservatives holding Totnes is probably Sarah Wollaston and if she wants to fight under LD colours I'm comfortable with that.
I've never understood why she was not a Lib Dem in the first place. She would appear to have nothing in common with the Conservatives.
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
The problem is not "significant transfers of sovereignty", it is trade. We have a sweet arrangement with the EU and its 27 other countries, and through the EU, we have good deals with most other places, all of which we stand to lose. See @Cyclefree's headers passim on tearing up agreements. And to reproduce those deals from outside, we will have to give up (not pool) even more sovereignty because any agreement will specify standards and rigged tribunals to adjudicate them (can't risk open court because they might go the wrong way).
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
I don't think this is a fair characterisation of the period of our membership.
At the time of Maastricht, no-one would have said that we'd been lied into our then level of integration. Where it all went wrong was that staying out of the Euro gave many people the illusion that we weren't really in anything much at all, and that separating would merely be a case of saying to the rest, "You carry on and we'll get out of your way."
It's a perfect characterisation. Indeed, it's the only characterisation that precisely explains why we are where we are. No British politician was ever wise and brave enough to tell the British people exactly how deep we were sinking into the quasi-Federalist Project. Because they knew it would be rejected. So we kept sinking. Because it suited THEM.
This was seen most acutely over the promised-then-denied referendums on the EU Constitution/Lisbon, when we signed up to the fateful Article 50.
This epic, geohistorical fuck up is all on the Remainers/Europhiles. There is no getting away from the facts.
But the Leavers must admit their own significant lies and huge inadequacies, as well. Especially in the immediate period before and then after the Referendum. I mean. David Davis, not even understanding how the EU works?! Wanker.
After this is all done - however it is done - Britain will need a Brexit Truth & Reconciliation Commission.
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
There's a lot hinging on your "in time".
Suppose a fix doesn't come, at least not before massive damage to the Irish economy and the border communities. Bearing in mind that the Leavers plan for the border is to invite the EU to abandon their Single Market and Customs Union (ie no plan at all) this seems more likely than your optimistic scenario.
The ill-feeling this will generate should not be underestimated.
I don't underestimate it. This should all have been avoided. I also believe that, in the end, a solution will be found. Vanishingly few want to return to the Troubles.
Britain will not erect Border Posts. Ireland won't. The EU might want to, but surely can't. The solution, of necessity, will be a bureaucratic fudge (if Brexit, or No Deal Brexit, happens at all).
Ah I see. You don't understand how border checks could come about. All is a lot clearer about your posts now.
Border checks will be done Away From The Border, nitwit. The EU already has a plan. Here, I'll save your sad, rheumy eyes from Googling:
'"Where will the controls be?" said a senior EU official in response to questions at a briefing on Monday. "The controls will have to be done where they belong. But that does not mean that we would want to see physical infrastructure at the border. We are working very closely with the Irish authorities to try and perform controls away from the border, if at all possible."'
It's a bit more complex than that, I think. Ireland can't afford a hard border. (Northern Ireland can afford it ten times less, but no Brexiteer or government minister cares tuppence about Northern Ireland). So Ireland would, push come to shove, need to partially separate from the EU and the Single Market to maintain that soft border
Ireland doesn't see why it should concede instead of the UK. It's the UK's Brexit policy that is damaging Ireland. As long as Ireland thinks it has leverage and the backing of the EU, it will push hard for its interest.
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
You seem to be forgetting the real issues with executing Brexit are the adverse impacts on trade and the economy. It turns out that the single market and customs union offer significant advantages that the the EU are not prepared to offer unless we agree to abide by the rules. Fancy that.
You take it as a given that there are significant advantages. There may be even more significant advanatages of other trading arrangements outside the EU, which you cannot countenance.
I can countenance it...
I just don't see the point in throwing away an existing arrangement with our near neighbours (where we are equal participants) together with the global arrangements that trading bloc has, for the uncertain possibility of future arrangements with other trading partners (the larger of which will see us as a small, weak counterparty to be taken advantage of).
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
I think the decrease of 6 points in the No Deal figure indicates that the more it's discussed, the less popular it is.
Obviously a danger for Johnson is not just that the figure is so low, but that during an election campaign it would be discussed very intensively indeed, and the figure could drop still further.
It is 46% for No Deal on a forced choice against Revoke or further extension, more than enough for a Boris majority
You're still not understanding the posts you're replying to at all, are you?
No I am even if you dislike any poll showing support for Brexit
You just don't seem to be understanding what other people are posting at all.
Leave him alone. Some people have the oddest hobbies...
Don't look at me
What is your official hobby title? Trainspotter? TrainRider?
I'd describe him as a Track Scratcher or Track Basher.
Take your pick!
Route basher more like. I use a blue or black biro to mark my journeys on an SK Baker Atlas, instead of a QUAIL track diagram.
The very fact you know of the existence of Quail puts you down as a hardcore crank.
And you should be using a yellow pen!
The QUAIL fanatics inhabit the GENSHEET Yahoo group
And why this predilection with a yellow pen? How can you see yellow properly on a white background?? Blue or black is far more prominent!
You have to use a yellow pen, since the act of doing a required route or bit of track is referred to as 'yellow-penning'. Any other colours are plain wrong!
The 30 Labour MPs now probably prepared to back the deal (Save Mann, Flint and a couple of others) are almost beyond bloody belief. Theresa May must be laughing hard at them or crying right now !
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
I don't think this is a fair characterisation of the period of our membership.
At the time of Maastricht, no-one would have said that we'd been lied into our then level of integration. Where it all went wrong was that staying out of the Euro gave many people the illusion that we weren't really in anything much at all, and that separating would merely be a case of saying to the rest, "You carry on and we'll get out of your way."
It's a perfect characterisation. Indeed, it's the only characterisation that precisely explains why we are where we are. No British politician was ever wise and brave enough to tell the British people exactly how deep we were sinking into the quasi-Federalist Project. Because they knew it would be rejected. So we kept sinking. Because it suited THEM.
This was seen most acutely over the promised-then-denied referendums on the EU Constitution/Lisbon, when we signed up to the fateful Article 50.
This epic, geohistorical fuck up is all on the Remainers/Europhiles. There is no getting away from the facts.
But the Leavers must admit their own significant lies and huge inadequacies, as well. Especially in the immediate period before and then after the Referendum. I mean. David Davis, not even understanding how the EU works?! Wanker.
After this is all done - however it is done - Britain will need a Brexit Truth & Reconciliation Commission.
Lol: State a completely unfounded opinion and then declare: "There is no getting away from the facts."
I might as well counter: "I am sure we all agree that Brexit is a monumental clusterfuck from start to finish."
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
The problem is not "significant transfers of sovereignty", it is trade. We have a sweet arrangement with the EU and its 27 other countries, and through the EU, we have good deals with most other places, all of which we stand to lose. See @Cyclefree's headers passim on tearing up agreements. And to reproduce those deals from outside, we will have to give up (not pool) even more sovereignty because any agreement will specify standards and rigged tribunals to adjudicate them (can't risk open court because they might go the wrong way).
It is a sweet arrangement. I wish we could keep it. BUT, it comes at a very, very hefty price.
Essentially, we lose control of our borders. Anyone in Europe can come here (and. boy, do they come). And they can come from countries - like Germany - that unilaterally decide to let 1m Syrian enter in one summer. All those Syrians can THEN come to the UK. Like, say, the Somalians in Holland
On top of that, you have the intuition that political control of our lives is being slowly and surely taken away from the MPs we know and understand, in Westminster, and given to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, who may not have even visited Britain, ever.
This intuition is justified, as it is true.
Add those ingredients together and you have the recipe for Brexit. Despite the sweetness of our trade arrangements.
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
As well as Brexit, Boris is responsible for many more things now that can drag down his share price.
1. The EU are about to do the dirty on UK and explain the grounds the Iranians are held in Gibraltar, for breaking EU law about supplying Syria, only applies to EU vessels, therefore UK and Gibraltar are in the illegal position as Iranians claim.
2. The British voters need reassurance the UK and France have a grip on migrants crossing the channel and illegally entering into Britain, and beating the gangs making a killing running that escalating situation. No one believes the official numbers because those are the ones rescued, there’s not enough being done to stop those paddling across undetected.
3. Boris head turned away from Hong Kong as he does nothing.
4. Boris head turned away from the British registered vessel and others held illegally by the Iranians, as he does nothing.
1. The UK is still in the EU so until we Leave wrong if they are in EU waters then EU law applies.
2. The UK is ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and Salvini is set to win a landslide in the autumn in the Italian general election to send migrant boats back to Africa.
3. Raab personally phoned Carrie Lam despite Chinese protestations to complain about treatment of pro democracy pritestors in Hong Kong.
4. It was on May's watch the Iranian vessel was seized not Boris' and the UK is now set to undertake patrols with US ships in the region.
1. When EU point out EU ban on oil to Syria only applies to EU registered vessels. Does Boris actually have a response to that? 2. I was pointing to the escalating situation in the English Channel, and that the government need to show themselves on the front foot against the evil gangs , thanks for your points but none of them addressed it. 3. To be fair apart from that phone call, what can be done. Politics isn’t fair, it’s Boris who will look weak and whose rating will fall, not a party leader out of power. 4. With reference to 1. happening, that vessel and other captives in Iran will be front and centre of the news and the government reactive, unless they get on the front foot.
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it this way, if Brexit was a roaring success, Leavers wouldn't be queuing up to congratulate Remainers on a job well done.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
Brexit is a fucking shit-show because pro-European elites have lied to the British people for forty years, and sunk us SO deep into the integrationist project, it turns out leaving is almost impossible without dismembering ourselves.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
I don't think this is a fair characterisation of the period of our membership.
At the time of Maastricht, no-one would have said that we'd been lied into our then level of integration. Where it all went wrong was that staying out of the Euro gave many people the illusion that we weren't really in anything much at all, and that separating would merely be a case of saying to the rest, "You carry on and we'll get out of your way."
It's a perfect characterisation. Indeed, it's the only characterisation that precisely explains why we are where we are. No British politician was ever wise and brave enough to tell the British people exactly how deep we were sinking into the quasi-Federalist Project. Because they knew it would be rejected. So we kept sinking. Because it suited THEM.
This was seen most acutely over the promised-then-denied referendums on the EU Constitution/Lisbon, when we signed up to the fateful Article 50.
This epic, geohistorical fuck up is all on the Remainers/Europhiles. There is no getting away from the facts.
But the Leavers must admit their own significant lies and huge inadequacies, as well. Especially in the immediate period before and then after the Referendum. I mean. David Davis, not even understanding how the EU works?! Wanker.
After this is all done - however it is done - Britain will need a Brexit Truth & Reconciliation Commission.
We've all lived through this. We know you are talking nonsense.
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
The 30 Labour MPs now probably prepared to back the deal (Save Mann, Flint and a couple of others) are almost beyond bloody belief. Theresa May must be laughing hard at them or crying right now !
Pointlessly late with PM Bozo.
Even if we had some temporary caretaker post-VoNC PM, they'd just go for an extension.
The 30 Labour MPs now probably prepared to back the deal (Save Mann, Flint and a couple of others) are almost beyond bloody belief. Theresa May must be laughing hard at them or crying right now !
If they have done nothing else the 3 years of nonsense in Parliament since the referendum have revealed how poorly we are represented by our MPs.
I am hanging around for the front pages, if they rally behind BoJo’s collaborators line of attack with “collaborating with Enemy - traitors” it’s going to be another low for this divided nation. 😕
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it thisg the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
before.
I don't think this is a fair characterisation of the period of our membership.
At the time of Maastricht, no-one would have said that we'd been lied into our then level of integration. Where it all went wrong was that staying out of the Euro gave many people the illusion that we weren't really in anything much at all, and that separating would merely be a case of saying to the rest, "You carry on and we'll get out of your way."
It's a per it is done - Britain will need a Brexit Truth & Reconciliation Commission.
We've all lived through this. We know you are talking nonsense.
Your inability to grasp the truth of what I'm saying is an abiding symptom of your affliction. Remainism.
This is apposite reading. Probably the best analysis of the Remainist mindset out there. And in the Guardian no less.
"A woman asked what to do when someone cited sovereignty as a reason for leaving the EU, no matter the economic costs. “I don’t understand it,” she said.
Even here, in a part of the country where remainers are a minority, there was some bafflement about why people might support Brexit"
"That makes Brexit a blip – a glitch in the system, destined to be righted. When I asked remainists if they were worried about what might happen if Brexit were stopped – how leave voters could react to the result of the referendum being rejected – no one seemed too concerned.
"Much as remainists claim to champion complexity, their own optimism is not so different from the kind currently coming out of No 10: it is as if the past three years could be magicked away, Brexit and its supporters bypassed, at little enduring cost."
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
A pleasent choice for Mr Grieve
And, he has only himself to blame for boxing himself into that corner.
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
No way. The only acceptable position is REMAIN. Nothing else will do.
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
That would be the one that Bozo resigned over, then voted in favour of, and now opposes. Or does he still support it?
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
That would be the one that Bozo resigned over, then voted in favour of, and now opposes. Or does he still support it?
I have no idea about Boris but it is the correct thing to do
It would at a stroke restore relations with the EU and Ireland, stop no deal and no brexit, and hopefully move the agenda
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
No way. The only acceptable position is REMAIN. Nothing else will do.
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
Well yes, I'd support that... but Boris can't can he?
Even if he did, he would not get the vote through - half his cabinet would resign, the ERG would vote against, along with most of Labour, the SNP and LDs.
I know everyone here are really big fans of Greta Thunberg so you can all watch her progress here: https://t.co/6nhsBbn73Q?amp=1
Ah, the exciting future of humanity. From being able to be in New York in a little over three hours on the Concorde in '76, to taking sixteen days in 2019. Progress!
There is a recession on the way, with its epicentre in the exporting centres of China and Germany.
If the EU nomenklatura want to drive that into a depression to make a point by destroying the EU's largest market then they will have the voters of Europe to answer to.
They may not care. But Europe's elected politicians will...
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
No way. The only acceptable position is REMAIN. Nothing else will do.
That's why the Swiss and Norwegian economies are in real troub.. oh wait.
Well you're just plain wrong here. Remainers caused it to fail. The people, like you, and like Soubry, that just deny the vote ever happened. Worse by far are Labour. What a surprise - the poison in British veins continues.
Put it thisg the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
before.
I don't think this is a fair characterisation of the period of our membership.
At the time of Maastricht, no-one would have said that we'd been lied into our then level of integration. Where it all went wrong was that staying out of the Euro gave many people the illusion that we weren't really in anything much at all, and that separating would merely be a case of saying to the rest, "You carry on and we'll get out of your way."
It's a per it is done - Britain will need a Brexit Truth & Reconciliation Commission.
We've all lived through this. We know you are talking nonsense.
Your inability to grasp the truth of what I'm saying is an abiding symptom of your affliction. Remainism.
"A woman asked what to do when someone cited sovereignty as a reason for leaving the EU, no matter the economic costs. “I don’t understand it,” she said.
The two sides of brexit debate today don’t agree on what sovereignty is, this has been so since before we even joined.
The leave mentality is sovereignty something unwisely gave away, and now rightly taking back where it belongs.
The remain mentality Sovereignty operates like a currency, you have 100 quid in the bank, put 20 quid to work to your advantage. Such as membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP. Removal of trade barriers and greater trade efficiency’s to 44% of all UK exports.
Are you saying remainers comfortable with pooling some sovereignty means they are stupid?
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
Well yes, I'd support that... but Boris can't can he?
Even if he did, he would not get the vote through - half his cabinet would resign, the ERG would vote against, along with most of Labour, the SNP and LDs.
Stephen Kinnock is talking of 50 plus labour mps and so many want this concluded it may just get through
Corbyn knows full well what he is doing and that, once he has the office for a couple weeks, he won't budge from it. MPs will need to decide if they are willing to legitimize such a person.
Don't be silly - they could VoNC Corbyn out very easily once No Deal has been blocked.
I have a better idea. Accept Stephen Kinnocks offer and get the WDA signed
Well yes, I'd support that... but Boris can't can he?
Even if he did, he would not get the vote through - half his cabinet would resign, the ERG would vote against, along with most of Labour, the SNP and LDs.
Stephen Kinnock is talking of 50 plus labour mps and so many want this concluded it may just get through
Comments
It's all very wll saying we need more scientists and that's fine but does the system mean the scientist can bring over 25 of his or her immediate family and allow them to settle here as well?
I'm not a diehard remainer, I just think it would be suicidal for us to leave without a deal. I think the best outcome would be to leave with a deal.
Brexit is an across the board failure. Leavers naturally blame those that thought it was a bad idea all the long and not themselves for making the wrong decision.
It's human nature to blame others for your own mistakes.
So it was this form, or fresh elections, even on your figures. And she would not have wanted a fresh election when Labour were riding high.
Take your pick!
Yes I know some parts of Northern Africa aren't safe places to be but most of these "refugees" have safely travelled across the entire unsafe area to pay for a dodgy boat to take them to be "rescued". They really should be being sent directly back where they came.
Re Pelosi, remember that these are American politicians playing to Irish-American voters, and the still-modestly-powerful Irish American lobby (the lobby is obviously not THAT powerful, anymore, or Trump and Bolton would not feel able to make these breezily pro-Brexit remarks).
At the moment, coming out for the GFA and Ireland is an easy vote-winner, and it sounds morally correct. And quite possibly it is morally correct.
But imagine if Britain does a Hard or Hardest Brexit. Some fix will be found for the Border, in time. Is America, in that light. really going to antagonise one of its most significant allies, and a serious military player. the UK, in favour of a largely sentimental attachment to Ireland?
Nope. The days of the Kennedys are gone. Realpolitik would prevail. If a UK-US trade deal was in America's interest, it would be dealt.
Neither I nor the Labour Party have denied that the referendum took place, although personally I wish it hadn't - look what a hole we are in now.
To be honest, your post has absolutely no logical connection to mine. Are you sure you are responding under the right post?
I'll get my dressing gown.
Good night,
At last we have a coherent, workable solution to the border question.
I think, setting aside self-seeking politicians, most people would not be too unhappy for us to leave the political structures but to continue to participate in the economic aspects. It's just tragic that politicians of all colours have been too concerned with their own narrow advantage to arrive at a reasonable compromise.
Britain is the 6th largest economy, important military ally, owner of crucial American bases, vital intelligence partner, huge economic investor in the US. And, with all due respect to Ireland, Ireland is none of these things.
The Merikans are not going to fight with us over a Border *issue* which will, in all likelihood, be solved anyway, post Brexit. It's not in THEIR interest.
And you should be using a yellow pen!
Suppose a fix doesn't come, at least not before massive damage to the Irish economy and the border communities. Bearing in mind that the Leavers plan for the border is to invite the EU to abandon their Single Market and Customs Union (ie no plan at all) this seems more likely than your optimistic scenario.
The ill-feeling this will generate should not be underestimated.
The Lib Dems are just as partisan as the Tories.
"There will be no significant transfers of sovereignty". Yeah, right.
Leavers need to own the mess of Brexit. Remainers need to own the decades of putrid lies that went before.
Britain will not erect Border Posts. Ireland won't. The EU might want to, but surely can't. The solution, of necessity, will be a bureaucratic fudge (if Brexit, or No Deal Brexit, happens at all).
Get a grip.
At the time of Maastricht, no-one would have said that we'd been lied into our then level of integration. Where it all went wrong was that staying out of the Euro gave many people the illusion that we weren't really in anything much at all, and that separating would merely be a case of saying to the rest, "You carry on and we'll get out of your way."
'"Where will the controls be?" said a senior EU official in response to questions at a briefing on Monday. "The controls will have to be done where they belong. But that does not mean that we would want to see physical infrastructure at the border. We are working very closely with the Irish authorities to try and perform controls away from the border, if at all possible."'
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0330/1039471-brexit-no-deal-tony-connelly/
You're fully Oirish, now.
And why this predilection with a yellow pen? How can you see yellow properly on a white background?? Blue or black is far more prominent!
I accept, that is a legitimate piece of low politics, but let's not pretend that Labour ever intended to strike a bargain with the Conservatives on this.
Labour's problem was that they did not expect so many of their supporters to abandon them, because of Brexit.
This was seen most acutely over the promised-then-denied referendums on the EU Constitution/Lisbon, when we signed up to the fateful Article 50.
This epic, geohistorical fuck up is all on the Remainers/Europhiles. There is no getting away from the facts.
But the Leavers must admit their own significant lies and huge inadequacies, as well. Especially in the immediate period before and then after the Referendum. I mean. David Davis, not even understanding how the EU works?! Wanker.
After this is all done - however it is done - Britain will need a Brexit Truth & Reconciliation Commission.
An excellent idea. I'd go for that.
Ireland doesn't see why it should concede instead of the UK. It's the UK's Brexit policy that is damaging Ireland. As long as Ireland thinks it has leverage and the backing of the EU, it will push hard for its interest.
I just don't see the point in throwing away an existing arrangement with our near neighbours (where we are equal participants) together with the global arrangements that trading bloc has, for the uncertain possibility of future arrangements with other trading partners (the larger of which will see us as a small, weak counterparty to be taken advantage of).
I might as well counter: "I am sure we all agree that Brexit is a monumental clusterfuck from start to finish."
Essentially, we lose control of our borders. Anyone in Europe can come here (and. boy, do they come). And they can come from countries - like Germany - that unilaterally decide to let 1m Syrian enter in one summer. All those Syrians can THEN come to the UK. Like, say, the Somalians in Holland
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/28/british-dream-europe-african-citizens
On top of that, you have the intuition that political control of our lives is being slowly and surely taken away from the MPs we know and understand, in Westminster, and given to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, who may not have even visited Britain, ever.
This intuition is justified, as it is true.
Add those ingredients together and you have the recipe for Brexit. Despite the sweetness of our trade arrangements.
2. I was pointing to the escalating situation in the English Channel, and that the government need to show themselves on the front foot against the evil gangs , thanks for your points but none of them addressed it.
3. To be fair apart from that phone call, what can be done. Politics isn’t fair, it’s Boris who will look weak and whose rating will fall, not a party leader out of power.
4. With reference to 1. happening, that vessel and other captives in Iran will be front and centre of the news and the government reactive, unless they get on the front foot.
Even if we had some temporary caretaker post-VoNC PM, they'd just go for an extension.
This is apposite reading. Probably the best analysis of the Remainist mindset out there. And in the Guardian no less.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
Crucial paragraphs:
"A woman asked what to do when someone cited sovereignty as a reason for leaving the EU, no matter the economic costs. “I don’t understand it,” she said.
Even here, in a part of the country where remainers are a minority, there was some bafflement about why people might support Brexit"
"That makes Brexit a blip – a glitch in the system, destined to be righted. When I asked remainists if they were worried about what might happen if Brexit were stopped – how leave voters could react to the result of the referendum being rejected – no one seemed too concerned.
"Much as remainists claim to champion complexity, their own optimism is not so different from the kind currently coming out of No 10: it is as if the past three years could be magicked away, Brexit and its supporters bypassed, at little enduring cost."
It would at a stroke restore relations with the EU and Ireland, stop no deal and no brexit, and hopefully move the agenda
Even if he did, he would not get the vote through - half his cabinet would resign, the ERG would vote against, along with most of Labour, the SNP and LDs.
If the EU nomenklatura want to drive that into a depression to make a point by destroying the EU's largest market then they will have the voters of Europe to answer to.
They may not care. But Europe's elected politicians will...
The leave mentality is sovereignty something unwisely gave away, and now rightly taking back where it belongs.
The remain mentality Sovereignty operates like a currency, you have 100 quid in the bank, put 20 quid to work to your advantage. Such as membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP. Removal of trade barriers and greater trade efficiency’s to 44% of all UK exports.
Are you saying remainers comfortable with pooling some sovereignty means they are stupid?