politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LDs just ahead of the Tories in 20 top CON-LD marginals YouGov
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Good one.bigjohnowls said:
Spread shit Phil!Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Wonder if Hammond's comment will have much impact.0 -
If ever evidence was needed that paying by the word encourages indulgiance. What he says is accurate and even perceptive but by the time you get to the appeal at the end you feel you've been conned.Sean_F said:AndyJS said:"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
That's a good article.AndyJS said:"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
I think it's a problem for such campaigners that they are less likely to encounter opposing views than their opponents are.0 -
Plenty of trendy causes will be available to parade self satisfaction and show how unlike those other, awful people you are. Nobody is going to want to revisit a disaster they confidently predicted that didn't happen.Foxy said:
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.AndyJS said:"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.0 -
Not so much the comment,but the willingness to vote against the government, from someone who voted for the WA three times.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Wonder if Hammond's comment will have much impact.0 -
Theresa May bears a very heavy responsibility for the situation. It's been said before that if she made any effort to reconcile Remainers to the situation, we probably would have been outside and, for example, with a Norway type deal, by now. Instead she, like Johnson, assumed that the Leaver wing of the Conservative party was the Patriot party and all Remainers were, by inference, unfit to take any part in discussions.
History will not, I suspect, be kind to her.0 -
This idea that somehow it’s the ERG/Brexiteers fault we’re heading to No Deal is laughable revisionism. The only Brexit MPs I can think of that rejected MV3 and had much prominence in the referendum campaign were Kate Hoey and Priti Patel.
Johnson, Gove, Raab, Davis, Fox, Leadsome, IDS and Frank Field all held their noses and voted for the deal at MV3. Even the then Chair of the ERG, Rees Mogg voted for the deal.
There was a rebel rump of the Bakers, Redwoods and Francoises of this world but you always get that on the extremes for any contentious political issue. Meanwhile, perhaps someone would like to enlighten me outside the Tory Party how many Remain MPs backed leaving with a Deal?
There was a rizzler difference between Labour’s permanent customs union and May’s theoretically temporary but practically permanent customs union. And yet these clowns decided to play fast and loose, either for party interest rather than national interest or because they still held out hope of defying the electorate and stopping the Brexit train.
No Deal is a sub optimal outcome but it looks now like the outcome we’re getting. I know it triggers lots of you to hear it but it’s the conduct of the Continuity Remainers inside (and outside) Parliament that are as much to blame for this as anyone. The likes of Hammond, Starmer, Grieve, Cooper presided over the legislative process for an in/out referendum, Article 50 and then for a No Deal exit to be the legal default. They then did everything they could to tie the government’s hands in securing a deliverable package and made sure that the final package on the table was roundly defeated thrice.
Lots of Remainers are justifiably angry it’s come to this. Well guess what, so am I. But we are where we are and onwards and upwards we must now go.0 -
@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...0 -
Leavers underestimate the backlash that is coming this way. I have always been interested in politics but the article describes Mrs Foxy very well. An apolitical nurse who now is obsessively anti-Brexit.Luckyguy1983 said:
Plenty of trendy causes will be available to parade self satisfaction and show how unlike those other, awful people you are. Nobody is going to want to revisit a disaster they confidently predicted that didn't happen.Foxy said:
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.AndyJS said:"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.1 -
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...1 -
Mr. Gate, May's deal wasn't a hard departure. It tied us closely to the EU for the transition and left the long term future a matter for negotiation.0
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Boris said during the campaing that "we will remain a paid up, valued, participating member of the Single MarketPhilip_Thompson said:
Remainers tried to define after the vote hard and soft that way, but actually during the referendum the SM and CU had been ruled out anyway.Streeter said:Revisionism as usual. ‘Hard’ and ‘Soft’ Brexits were defined soon after the vote as meaning outside or inside the SM and CU. May’s deal is therefore Hard. Norway Plus would be Soft.
No Deal is off the Mohs scale of hardness, notwithstanding the call of Byronic (or some other poster, maybe Sean something) for ‘Diamond Hard’ Brexit.
Anyhoo, seems the fellow’s got his wish, unless the unlikely figure of Hammond can lead us to salvation.
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1155808844024602624?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1155808844024602624&ref_url=https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/07/30/this-clip-of-boris-johnson-talking-about-the-single-market-hasnt-aged-well/0 -
If that was the case, it would have been no problem to make the political declaration a ‘soft brexit’ to appease Remainers.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Gate, May's deal wasn't a hard departure. It tied us closely to the EU for the transition and left the long term future a matter for negotiation.
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Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=210 -
Populist politics is based on failing to accept responsibility, there is always some one to blame.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...0 -
'Everyone knows....'? I didn't know.AlastairMeeks said:Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=21
Did you?0 -
I text a Finnish friend and work colleague a few days ago in frustration saying “this country is a joke man”. His only response: “I know”.
Says it all.0 -
I’ve spent the thread arguing with people who claim that something that the Leave campaign had categorically disavowed now has a mandate. In this Alice In Wonderland world, who knows what we know now?Peter_the_Punter said:
'Everyone knows....'? I didn't know.AlastairMeeks said:Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=21
Did you?0 -
Indeed, I am old enough to remember when Phil Hammond was considered a Eurosceptic.Peter_the_Punter said:
'Everyone knows....'? I didn't know.AlastairMeeks said:Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=21
Did you?0 -
Have we done this one?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/bercow-will-fight-to-stop-johnson-closing-parliament-for-no-deal
Kind of man-bites-dog that the speaker of parliament doesn't think it's OK for the executive to just close down parliament in case it votes against them, but newsy nonetheless.The Grauniad said:The House of Commons Speaker, John Bercow, has said he will “fight with every breath in my body” to stop Boris Johnson from proroguing parliament to force through a no-deal Brexit without the consent of MPs.
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Not sure why anyone believe this. He was an instrumental part of a government that negotiated a deal that was the softest of soft Brexits possible while abolishing free movement.AlastairMeeks said:Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=21
The trade off for this was that the sovereignty issues took a back seat, to the extent that the Attorney General was unable to confirm the UK could ever legally withdraw from the treaty. This was to totally misjudge the mood of Parliament. I’d bet you could count on one hand the number of leave MPs for whom sovereignty wasn’t their number one issue.
He and his PM didn’t listen, they willingly gave up negotiating tools and hence ended up with an undeliverable deal. His solution now is what exactly? Sorry Phil, you had your dance in the sun. Now please disappear back to obscurity.1 -
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...0 -
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I see that MPs who repeatedly voted to leave the EU with a deal are now being attacked as diehard Remainers.
Plus ca change .......0 -
Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
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I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.0 -
"“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve spent the thread arguing with people who claim that something that the Leave campaign had categorically disavowed now has a mandate. In this Alice In Wonderland world, who knows what we know now?Peter_the_Punter said:
'Everyone knows....'? I didn't know.AlastairMeeks said:Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=21
Did you?0 -
It wasn't the softest of soft Brexits. It left free movement, the single market, almost all European rules, the jurisdiction of the ECJ, the CFP, the CAP and the membership fee. The deal was completely deliverable except MPs on the hardcore of both sided are pathetic.moonshine said:
Not sure why anyone believe this. He was an instrumental part of a government that negotiated a deal that was the softest of soft Brexits possible while abolishing free movement.AlastairMeeks said:Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=21
The trade off for this was that the sovereignty issues took a back seat, to the extent that the Attorney General was unable to confirm the UK could ever legally withdraw from the treaty. This was to totally misjudge the mood of Parliament. I’d bet you could count on one hand the number of leave MPs for whom sovereignty wasn’t their number one issue.
He and his PM didn’t listen, they willingly gave up negotiating tools and hence ended up with an undeliverable deal. His solution now is what exactly? Sorry Phil, you had you dance in the sun. Now please disappear back to obscurity.0 -
Nope - no “incoherent abuse” from me. I find it rarely achieves anything.AlastairMeeks said:
I’m sorry that a straightforward statement of fact riles you so. If you googled instead of throwing out incoherent abuse, you might educate yourself. But since you still haven’t deigned to answer a simple yes/no question because you know it holes you beneath the waterline, graduating to analysis of the EU’s negotiating position is too much to hope for.Charles said:
PatheticAlastairMeeks said:
They won’t tweak the current deal. But different deals are available.JBriskinindyref2 said:
No it hasn't - it stated ad nauseam that they're not re-opening WA, i.e not renegotiating.AlastairMeeks said:
No it hasn’t. It has repeatedly said that different deals are available.Charles said:
The EU has said noAlastairMeeks said:
Then the executive need to renegotiate. There is no mandate for a no deal that was expressly and angrily rejected by Leave campaigners.Charles said:
Just respecting the clearly expressed view of Parliament which said an emphatic no, even when given the opportunity to reconsiderAlastairMeeks said:
The deal is still there. It has been abandoned - without mandate - by the death cult.Philip_Thompson said:
We have a mandate to leave.AlastairMeeks said:
You don’t get to claim a mandate for something that you actively disavowed. Black is not white. You want no deal Brexit, you need a mandate for it. You haven’t got one.Philip_Thompson said:Remainers gave them the mandate by rejecting the deal. They could have permanently taken no deal off the table, but they got greedy and its backfired.
This is not difficult stuff but Leavers are determined to undermine Britain’s democracy because they hate the EU so much.
No deal is not a thing. It is just an absence of a deal, since you guys rejected the deal we have no choice, the only way to leave left open to us now is without a deal.
“Different deals” except ones which the U.K. government is open to because in those cases the “deal is the deal and will not be reopened”
Do realise how much of an idiot you make yourself appear? I know it’s guilt swirling around that your machinations have led to this, but it really isn’t healthy
But you should remove the beam from your own eye0 -
The Leave campaign was based around pandering to voters with xenophobic lies. The government correctly took that as its mandate. If Leave MPs had different priorities they should have campaigned differently. They were trapped by their own amorality.moonshine said:
Not sure why anyone believe this. He was an instrumental part of a government that negotiated a deal that was the softest of soft Brexits possible while abolishing free movement.AlastairMeeks said:Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=21
The trade off for this was that the sovereignty issues took a back seat, to the extent that the Attorney General was unable to confirm the UK could ever legally withdraw from the treaty. This was to totally misjudge the mood of Parliament. I’d bet you could count on one hand the number of leave MPs for whom sovereignty wasn’t their number one issue.
He and his PM didn’t listen, they willingly gave up negotiating tools and hence ended up with an undeliverable deal. His solution now is what exactly? Sorry Phil, you had your dance in the sun. Now please disappear back to obscurity.0 -
Where exactly is 'the bottom', Hamilton? It would be reassuring to know there is one, and what it ,ight look like.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
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A William Lenthall for our times.edmundintokyo said:Have we done this one?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/bercow-will-fight-to-stop-johnson-closing-parliament-for-no-deal
Kind of man-bites-dog that the speaker of parliament doesn't think it's OK for the executive to just close down parliament in case it votes against them, but newsy nonetheless.The Grauniad said:The House of Commons Speaker, John Bercow, has said he will “fight with every breath in my body” to stop Boris Johnson from proroguing parliament to force through a no-deal Brexit without the consent of MPs.
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And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.0 -
Scotland suffered the indignity of Celtic being knocked out of the champions league by a Romanian team last night. The world is moving on. Scottish football is too parochial. Living off fading glories of the past.0
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And the disaster capitalists and multi millionaires with offshore tax haven funds will be laughing all the way to the bank.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
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I suggest you reread the post I quoted in response to an entirely factual point and ponder whether it was your finest hour. Meanwhile I continue to await with interest whether you accept that the Leave campaign was built around a disavowal of no deal.Charles said:
Nope - no “incoherent abuse” from me. I find it rarely achieves anything.AlastairMeeks said:
I’m sorry that a straightforward statement of fact riles you so. If you googled instead of throwing out incoherent abuse, you might educate yourself. But since you still haven’t deigned to answer a simple yes/no question because you know it holes you beneath the waterline, graduating to analysis of the EU’s negotiating position is too much to hope for.Charles said:
PatheticAlastairMeeks said:
They won’t tweak the current deal. But different deals are available.JBriskinindyref2 said:
No it hasn't - it stated ad nauseam that they're not re-opening WA, i.e not renegotiating.AlastairMeeks said:
No it hasn’t. It has repeatedly said that different deals are available.Charles said:
The EU has said noAlastairMeeks said:
Then the executive need to renegotiate. There is no mandate for a no deal that was expressly and angrily rejected by Leave campaigners.Charles said:
Just respecting the clearly expressed view of Parliament which said an emphatic no, even when given the opportunity to reconsiderAlastairMeeks said:
The deal is still there. It has been abandoned - without mandate - by the death cult.Philip_Thompson said:
We have a mandate to leave.AlastairMeeks said:
You don’t get to claim a mandate for something that you actively disavowed. Black is not white. You want no deal Brexit, you need a mandate for it. You haven’t got one.
This is not difficult stuff but Leavers are determined to undermine Britain’s democracy because they hate the EU so much.
No deal is not a thing. It is just an absence of a deal, since you guys rejected the deal we have no choice, the only way to leave left open to us now is without a deal.
“Different deals” except ones which the U.K. government is open to because in those cases the “deal is the deal and will not be reopened”
Do realise how much of an idiot you make yourself appear? I know it’s guilt swirling around that your machinations have led to this, but it really isn’t healthy
But you should remove the beam from your own eye0 -
As just one example:Scott_P said:
” the government confirmed last August that organic farmers will lose their access to EU markets in the event of a no-deal Brexit as they could no longer be certified as organic traders. They will have to wait a minimum of nine months to apply for a new certificate which will allow them to resume trading. You can't prepare for that, it just is.”0 -
Mr. Gate, that's not true.
The political declaration is a statement of intent, not legally binding.
As for Remainer MPs: how can they prefer a no deal departure to one that has a deal *and* leaves the permanent arrangements up for debate (including electorally)?
It's just partisan politics.0 -
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
May was one of the few MPs that actually fought for a compromise. Remainers had the option to engage at any time and, outside a minority, most refused to. Saying afterwards "but she said things that hurt my feelings so I couldn't" is childish dodging of responsibility.OldKingCole said:Theresa May bears a very heavy responsibility for the situation. It's been said before that if she made any effort to reconcile Remainers to the situation, we probably would have been outside and, for example, with a Norway type deal, by now. Instead she, like Johnson, assumed that the Leaver wing of the Conservative party was the Patriot party and all Remainers were, by inference, unfit to take any part in discussions.
History will not, I suspect, be kind to her.0 -
The bottom looks like Argentina over the last century. From where there is news:Peter_the_Punter said:
Where exactly is 'the bottom', Hamilton? It would be reassuring to know there is one, and what it ,ight look like.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/argentina-on-brink-of-financial-crisis-market-rout-election-surprise-2019-8-10284432090 -
Like many a Remainer, I nearly voted Leave because I wasn't happy with many aspects of the EU.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
After the vote, I wasn't unduly disturbed because I assumed Leavers would have some kind of coherent plan which they would implement. I imagined, not unreasonably, that this plan would reflect the aims and promises of their referendum campaign.
You know the rest. Blame can rightly be apportioned far and wide, but it is the Government which has the power and therefore the responsibility to see these things through in the best interests of the Country.
Do you really think that is what we have witnessed?
If No Deal is good for the Country, put it to the electorate in a vote. It is NOT what a majority voted for last time, but if a majority vote for it now, no problem.1 -
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
I think it’s more complex and unpredictable than you assume. “Fear of fear itself” and all that has unquestionably played a major role in the past 12-months. But at this moment it’s hard to disentangle investment deferred due to uncertainty, from investment cancelled due to the fact of Brexit.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
What was misunderstood from the forecasts of what would follow the vote itself was the impact of animal spirits. Half the country woke up in June 2016 in a cracking mood and their economics actions reflected this. The same very well may happen again in redux, given that a good chunk of the 48% just want to move on with their lives.
There have been ever hysterical apocalyptic visions of mutton volcanoes, Zimbabwe style medicine shortages and the roads in Kent turning into the world’s largest steel snake. When it’s not as bad as all that, we may well find confidence recovers quite quickly. FDI will be attracted by the cheap sterling price. And this is without the tax cut and spending splurge planned by the government (including not least the positive impact to disposable incomes from a temporary period of across the board zero tariffs).
But I don’t know. And neither do you. That’s the very nature of uncertainty.0 -
No, it’s a false equivalence. The path to no deal Brexit is being set by the executive.Gabs2 said:
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
There are those on here that claim May's deal was a very hard Brexitmoonshine said:
Not sure why anyone believe this. He was an instrumental part of a government that negotiated a deal that was the softest of soft Brexits possible while abolishing free movement.AlastairMeeks said:Mr Hammond has an answer for @moonshine too:
https://twitter.com/philiphammonduk/status/1161397591906689024?s=21
The trade off for this was that the sovereignty issues took a back seat, to the extent that the Attorney General was unable to confirm the UK could ever legally withdraw from the treaty. This was to totally misjudge the mood of Parliament. I’d bet you could count on one hand the number of leave MPs for whom sovereignty wasn’t their number one issue.
He and his PM didn’t listen, they willingly gave up negotiating tools and hence ended up with an undeliverable deal. His solution now is what exactly? Sorry Phil, you had your dance in the sun. Now please disappear back to obscurity.0 -
Just as Mrs May, when it came to it, pivoted to make sure it didn’t happenAlastairMeeks said:
No, it’s a false equivalence. The path to no deal Brexit is being set by the executive.Gabs2 said:
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
Hmmm.....you're quite an optimist then Foxy.Foxy said:
The bottom looks like Argentina over the last century. From where there is news:Peter_the_Punter said:
Where exactly is 'the bottom', Hamilton? It would be reassuring to know there is one, and what it ,ight look like.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/argentina-on-brink-of-financial-crisis-market-rout-election-surprise-2019-8-1028443209
Richard Nabavi and one or two others of this parish think we can get the double whammy - No Deal followed by Venezuela.
I think that is perfectly possible.
0 -
Gabs2 said:
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
It looks to me as if leavers are starting to get scared about the consequences of what they have unleashed!0 -
Simply not true, Parliament is 70% remianAlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
This is not complicated stuff for those who do not choose to actively not follow it.IanB2 said:
Just as Mrs May, when it came to it, pivoted to make sure it didn’t happenAlastairMeeks said:
No, it’s a false equivalence. The path to no deal Brexit is being set by the executive.Gabs2 said:
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
Richard is the issue isn’t people like you. It’s those Remain-supporting MPs who voted against an orderly withdrawal either because (a) they saw it as a backdoor to revoke; or (b) for party political reasons.Richard_Nabavi said:
It's incredibly simple. Those of us who voted Remain, but accepted (and still accept) that the referendum result should be respected and implemented, as best it can be, in accordance with the Leave campaign's platform, were gobsmacked when Steve Baker, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and others gratuitously trashed the deal which had been painstakingly negotiated, and which would have met ALL of their original demands. Since these nutjobs suddenly decided that leaving in the terms they had advocated was worse than remaining, why in the name of heaven should those of us who thought all along that remaining was a better option suddenly switch into becoming supporters of a no-deal crash-out, the most brain-dead, damaging, irresponsible, economically insane and dangerous version of Brexit imaginable? If Leavers don't want to leave in an orderly fashion, fine, let's remain then.Byronic said:It would be good if PB's ultra-Remainers could outline what these Alternative Deals might be, and why they would be more acceptable to the UK parliament than TMay's unhappy botch-job.
I am a leaver. There were parts of the deal I didn’t like. But it was an acceptable compromise I was willing to support (not that that counts for anything)1 -
Indeed. Post Brexit -if the Johnson faction holds- there will be a mighty new opposition. The people the media buyers pay the big bucks for. Where Johnson and his new proto fascist party will get their support from is harder to say particularly if the economy takes a dive. I doubt the traditional Labour supporters will jump aboardFoxy said:
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.AndyJS said:"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.0 -
But in some cases it will be as bad as that.moonshine said:There have been ever hysterical apocalyptic visions of mutton volcanoes, Zimbabwe style medicine shortages and the roads in Kent turning into the world’s largest steel snake. When it’s not as bad as all that, we may well find confidence recovers quite quickly.
As noted upthread, there are some things that can't be prepared for (or wished away).
Bad things will happen. Brexit will be the proximate cause.
The people who are affected, whether they voted for it or not, will not be happy.0 -
As a Remainer, I felt similarly. May negitiated a deal that mitigated most the damage amd filled the referendum mandate. That was the government's duty. It is parliament that also had the power and responsibility to do things in the best interest of the country. They instead played politics, invoking A50 and blocking the deal. They carry as much blame as the new PM for this.Peter_the_Punter said:
Like many a Remainer, I nearly voted Leave because I wasn't happy with many aspects of the EU.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
After the vote, I wasn't unduly disturbed because I assumed Leavers would have some kind of coherent plan which they would implement. I imagined, not unreasonably, that this plan would reflect the aims and promises of their referendum campaign.
You know the rest. Blame can rightly be apportioned far and wide, but it is the Government which has the power and therefore the responsibility to see these things through in the best interests of the Country.
Do you really think that is what we have witnessed?
If No Deal is good for the Country, put it to the electorate in a vote. It is NOT what a majority voted for last time, but if a majority vote for it now, no problem.0 -
Look at the third meaningful vote and move dissident Leavers, including the DUP, from one column to the other. This is simply a point of fact.Currystardog said:
Simply not true, Parliament is 70% remianAlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
I voted Remain and want to Rejoin!IanB2 said:Gabs2 said:
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
It looks to me as if leavers are starting to get scared about the consequences of what they have unleashed!0 -
It is a good summary:IanB2 said:
As just one example:Scott_P said:
” the government confirmed last August that organic farmers will lose their access to EU markets in the event of a no-deal Brexit as they could no longer be certified as organic traders. They will have to wait a minimum of nine months to apply for a new certificate which will allow them to resume trading. You can't prepare for that, it just is.”
"So, be wary of this talk of preparation. The best way of thinking about a no-deal Brexit is a collision with an oncoming vehicle. It's possible you can brace for impact, position yourself in a slightly better way to cushion the blow, but the blow will come."0 -
Then you’re a troll.Gabs2 said:
I voted Remain and want to Rejoin!IanB2 said:Gabs2 said:
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
It looks to me as if leavers are starting to get scared about the consequences of what they have unleashed!1 -
You can say exactly the same about Remainers that voted for Article 50. Funny how you cherrypick your facts.AlastairMeeks said:
Look at the third meaningful vote and move dissident Leavers, including the DUP, from one column to the other. This is simply a point of fact.Currystardog said:
Simply not true, Parliament is 70% remianAlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
https://twitter.com/johnhalton/status/1161533121705185280Peter_the_Punter said:
Hmmm.....you're quite an optimist then Foxy.Foxy said:
The bottom looks like Argentina over the last century. From where there is news:Peter_the_Punter said:
Where exactly is 'the bottom', Hamilton? It would be reassuring to know there is one, and what it ,ight look like.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/argentina-on-brink-of-financial-crisis-market-rout-election-surprise-2019-8-1028443209
Richard Nabavi and one or two others of this parish think we can get the double whammy - No Deal followed by Venezuela.
I think that is perfectly possible.0 -
'Not as bad as all that' is not much of a sales pitch, is it?moonshine said:
I think it’s more complex and unpredictable than you assume. “Fear of fear itself” and all that has unquestionably played a major role in the past 12-months. But at this moment it’s hard to disentangle investment deferred due to uncertainty, from investment cancelled due to the fact of Brexit.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
What was misunderstood from the forecasts of what would follow the vote itself was the impact of animal spirits. Half the country woke up in June 2016 in a cracking mood and their economics actions reflected this. The same very well may happen again in redux, given that a good chunk of the 48% just want to move on with their lives.
There have been ever hysterical apocalyptic visions of mutton volcanoes, Zimbabwe style medicine shortages and the roads in Kent turning into the world’s largest steel snake. When it’s not as bad as all that, we may well find confidence recovers quite quickly. FDI will be attracted by the cheap sterling price. And this is without the tax cut and spending splurge planned by the government (including not least the positive impact to disposable incomes from a temporary period of across the board zero tariffs).
But I don’t know. And neither do you. That’s the very nature of uncertainty.
Remaining in the EU would also have been 'not as bad as all that' and without the prospect of the kind of apocalyptic visions in your parody.
Where's the sense in it?0 -
Ah, we have got to the purge the moderates phase.IanB2 said:
Then you’re a troll.Gabs2 said:
I voted Remain and want to Rejoin!IanB2 said:Gabs2 said:
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
It looks to me as if leavers are starting to get scared about the consequences of what they have unleashed!0 -
No, I am just reading your posts. We seem to have a batch of new accounts on here that appeared around the same time who are trying to troll the discussion.Gabs2 said:
Ah, we have got to the purge the moderates phase.IanB2 said:
Then you’re a troll.Gabs2 said:
I voted Remain and want to Rejoin!IanB2 said:Gabs2 said:
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.AlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
It looks to me as if leavers are starting to get scared about the consequences of what they have unleashed!1 -
Ooh this is a fun little maths game. How about we do the same thing but this time move columns for MPs that were elected in 2017 on a platform to effect Brexit and were signed up to a policy of a customs union (formal or quasi, doesn’t really matter)?AlastairMeeks said:
Look at the third meaningful vote and move dissident Leavers, including the DUP, from one column to the other. This is simply a point of fact.Currystardog said:
Simply not true, Parliament is 70% remianAlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
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Stop traducing me. You continue to misrepresent what I am saying.Gabs2 said:
You can say exactly the same about Remainers that voted for Article 50. Funny how you cherrypick your facts.AlastairMeeks said:
Look at the third meaningful vote and move dissident Leavers, including the DUP, from one column to the other. This is simply a point of fact.Currystardog said:
Simply not true, Parliament is 70% remianAlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
I have simply not commented on Remain MPs. For the very good reason that they are a sideshow.0 -
Considering that a Romanian team won the European cup in 1986hamiltonace said:Scotland suffered the indignity of Celtic being knocked out of the champions league by a Romanian team last night. The world is moving on. Scottish football is too parochial. Living off fading glories of the past.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0NtFjq5Bb4
and that Celtic got beat by a team from Gibraltar three years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9FUNt-jSHY
you seem to be many decades behind the times.0 -
The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.0
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Do as you please. I’m making a meaningful point about Leavers in the run-up to no deal Brexit. You seem to be missing any point to your observation.moonshine said:
Ooh this is a fun little maths game. How about we do the same thing but this time move columns for MPs that were elected in 2017 on a platform to effect Brexit and were signed up to a policy of a customs union (formal or quasi, doesn’t really matter)?AlastairMeeks said:
Look at the third meaningful vote and move dissident Leavers, including the DUP, from one column to the other. This is simply a point of fact.Currystardog said:
Simply not true, Parliament is 70% remianAlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
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The deal that was negotiated reflected the Tory party's red lines, and so it was the responsibility of the Tory party to pass it. If May knew that her party wouldn't support it, she should have compromised with Labour right from the start and negotiated a deal that they could support. Perhaps they would have been cynical and refused to support anything, as you suggest. But since May never sought a genuine compromise, because she put the interests of her party first, we will never know.Charles said:
Richard is the issue isn’t people like you. It’s those Remain-supporting MPs who voted against an orderly withdrawal either because (a) they saw it as a backdoor to revoke; or (b) for party political reasons.Richard_Nabavi said:
It's incredibly simple. Those of us who voted Remain, but accepted (and still accept) that the referendum result should be respected and implemented, as best it can be, in accordance with the Leave campaign's platform, were gobsmacked when Steve Baker, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and others gratuitously trashed the deal which had been painstakingly negotiated, and which would have met ALL of their original demands. Since these nutjobs suddenly decided that leaving in the terms they had advocated was worse than remaining, why in the name of heaven should those of us who thought all along that remaining was a better option suddenly switch into becoming supporters of a no-deal crash-out, the most brain-dead, damaging, irresponsible, economically insane and dangerous version of Brexit imaginable? If Leavers don't want to leave in an orderly fashion, fine, let's remain then.Byronic said:It would be good if PB's ultra-Remainers could outline what these Alternative Deals might be, and why they would be more acceptable to the UK parliament than TMay's unhappy botch-job.
I am a leaver. There were parts of the deal I didn’t like. But it was an acceptable compromise I was willing to support (not that that counts for anything)
I agree with Richard - you can't ask people like him or me to support no deal. But I would go further - you couldn't expect people like me to support May's Tory deal. I would have supported exit on the lines that Labour advocated, although I would have preferred to retain full single market membership, so you cannot say that I don't respect the referendum result or have not been ready to compromise.0 -
Yes, because it's in the nature of things for business investment to grow over medium to long term, in the same way that it's in the nature of things for economies to grow in the medium to long term.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
1 -
So by voting for Article 50 and then voting against the soft Brexit Deal that was on the table is consistent with having no responsibility.?Scott_P said:
It's been running since the day of the vote.FF43 said:The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
The people that argued against it, campaigned against it, voted against it, are to blame for it...
0 -
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?Scott_P said:
It's been running since the day of the vote.FF43 said:The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
The people that argued against it, campaigned against it, voted against it, are to blame for it...0 -
And hopefully better food.CarlottaVance said:
It will be interesting to see how they price the tickets. It is often cheaper to get to Llandudno by buying a rail and sail deal to Dublin via Holyhead, rather than a rail only ticket, and then throw away the ferry ticket.0 -
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...Peter_the_Punter said:Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
0 -
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.Foxy said:
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.AndyJS said:"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.0 -
Sure they have some responsibility. The main responsibility lies with the Government though. It's why they are called the Government. It's because they are governing.Currystardog said:
So by voting for Article 50 and then voting against the soft Brexit Deal that was on the table is consistent with having no responsibility.?Scott_P said:
It's been running since the day of the vote.FF43 said:The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
The people that argued against it, campaigned against it, voted against it, are to blame for it...0 -
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Labour's Brexit was a much more practical proposition than May's very hard version. It was also a lot closer to what the public indicated they wanted by only voting very narrowly for leave. It would not really be very democratic of them to support an extreme version of Brexit.moonshine said:This idea that somehow it’s the ERG/Brexiteers fault we’re heading to No Deal is laughable revisionism. The only Brexit MPs I can think of that rejected MV3 and had much prominence in the referendum campaign were Kate Hoey and Priti Patel.
Johnson, Gove, Raab, Davis, Fox, Leadsome, IDS and Frank Field all held their noses and voted for the deal at MV3. Even the then Chair of the ERG, Rees Mogg voted for the deal.
There was a rebel rump of the Bakers, Redwoods and Francoises of this world but you always get that on the extremes for any contentious political issue. Meanwhile, perhaps someone would like to enlighten me outside the Tory Party how many Remain MPs backed leaving with a Deal?
There was a rizzler difference between Labour’s permanent customs union and May’s theoretically temporary but practically permanent customs union. And yet these clowns decided to play fast and loose, either for party interest rather than national interest or because they still held out hope of defying the electorate and stopping the Brexit train.
No Deal is a sub optimal outcome but it looks now like the outcome we’re getting. I know it triggers lots of you to hear it but it’s the conduct of the Continuity Remainers inside (and outside) Parliament that are as much to blame for this as anyone. The likes of Hammond, Starmer, Grieve, Cooper presided over the legislative process for an in/out referendum, Article 50 and then for a No Deal exit to be the legal default. They then did everything they could to tie the government’s hands in securing a deliverable package and made sure that the final package on the table was roundly defeated thrice.
Lots of Remainers are justifiably angry it’s come to this. Well guess what, so am I. But we are where we are and onwards and upwards we must now go.0 -
What we do know is that the government is setting up a contingency fund to help businesses that are currently profitable that will be harmed specifically as the result of a policy the government is choosing to pursue. Instead of collecting tax revenues from profitable companies, the government is planning on handing them money to keep them going because its policies are going to harm them.moonshine said:
I think it’s more complex and unpredictable than you assume. “Fear of fear itself” and all that has unquestionably played a major role in the past 12-months. But at this moment it’s hard to disentangle investment deferred due to uncertainty, from investment cancelled due to the fact of Brexit.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
What was misunderstood from the forecasts of what would follow the vote itself was the impact of animal spirits. Half the country woke up in June 2016 in a cracking mood and their economics actions reflected this. The same very well may happen again in redux, given that a good chunk of the 48% just want to move on with their lives.
There have been ever hysterical apocalyptic visions of mutton volcanoes, Zimbabwe style medicine shortages and the roads in Kent turning into the world’s largest steel snake. When it’s not as bad as all that, we may well find confidence recovers quite quickly. FDI will be attracted by the cheap sterling price. And this is without the tax cut and spending splurge planned by the government (including not least the positive impact to disposable incomes from a temporary period of across the board zero tariffs).
But I don’t know. And neither do you. That’s the very nature of uncertainty.
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The only person responsible for leaving with no deal is Johnson. It is in his powers to seek an extension in order pursue alternative strategies, an election or referendum or even putting forward a draft of what he wants as a deal. He could also revoke A 50 there is nothing stopping him doing any of those things. Now it may be electorally difficult for him and his party but that’s a different issue. If we leave no deal then ABDP Johnson will be 100% to blame or be 100% able to claim the credit if it goes swimmingly well.Currystardog said:
So by voting for Article 50 and then voting against the soft Brexit Deal that was on the table is consistent with having no responsibility.?Scott_P said:
It's been running since the day of the vote.FF43 said:The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
The people that argued against it, campaigned against it, voted against it, are to blame for it...0 -
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.Scott_P said:
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...Peter_the_Punter said:Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.0 -
I saw (and still do) staying in differently to you. That’s fine, sensible people often disagree on things, especially those things that are hard to foresee or have different winners/losers.Peter_the_Punter said:
'Not as bad as all that' is not much of a sales pitch, is it?moonshine said:
I think it’s more complex and unpredictable than you assume. “Fear of fear itself” and all that has unquestionably played a major role in the past 12-months. But at this moment it’s hard to disentangle investment deferred due to uncertainty, from investment cancelled due to the fact of Brexit.hamiltonace said:Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
What was misunderstood from the forecasts of what would follow the vote itself was the impact of animal spirits. Half the country woke up in June 2016 in a cracking mood and their economics actions reflected this. The same very well may happen again in redux, given that a good chunk of the 48% just want to move on with their lives.
There have been ever hysterical apocalyptic visions of mutton volcanoes, Zimbabwe style medicine shortages and the roads in Kent turning into the world’s largest steel snake. When it’s not as bad as all that, we may well find confidence recovers quite quickly. FDI will be attracted by the cheap sterling price. And this is without the tax cut and spending splurge planned by the government (including not least the positive impact to disposable incomes from a temporary period of across the board zero tariffs).
But I don’t know. And neither do you. That’s the very nature of uncertainty.
Remaining in the EU would also have been 'not as bad as all that' and without the prospect of the kind of apocalyptic visions in your parody.
Where's the sense in it?
The combination of the unstable structure of the Eurozone, the burgeoning Target 2 imbalances and the sort of government that Italy now has, scares the life out of me. I’d far rather the Uk reorientates it’s trade elsewhere while it can. Further, I doubt the above can ultimately be fixed without full political integration. Which might be for some people but not for me, as I prefer power to be as decentralised, transparent and accountable as possible. Finally I consider the UK immigration policy since Freedom of Movement was introduced to be racist. I’ve got plenty of smart friends and family from around the world that are penalised from moving to the UK so that those from white Christian countries can be prioritised.
But these are tired arguments now and don’t really matter.0 -
Mr. Nichomar, whilst I agree Johnson will end up with all the blame/credit if we depart without a deal, it's incorrect to say he's the only person responsible. If Parliament had passed May's deal, we'd be leaving that way.0
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And indeed, was predicted at the time.FF43 said:The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
Anyway, why do “No Dealers” seek to blame Remainers for No Deal when it appears they positively relish the opportunity to fuck the country?0 -
The government has a choice. Today, tomorrow, on any day before 1st November it can choose not to inflict a No Deal Brexit on the UK. Thus, when we do leave without a deal it will be entirely the government's responsibility.Peter_the_Punter said:
Sure they have some responsibility. The main responsibility lies with the Government though. It's why they are called the Government. It's because they are governing.Currystardog said:
So by voting for Article 50 and then voting against the soft Brexit Deal that was on the table is consistent with having no responsibility.?Scott_P said:
It's been running since the day of the vote.FF43 said:The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
The people that argued against it, campaigned against it, voted against it, are to blame for it...
0 -
But what about the campaign that's been running since the day of the vote that everything was a disaster.Scott_P said:
It's been running since the day of the vote.FF43 said:The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
The people that argued against it, campaigned against it, voted against it, are to blame for it...
The campaign that spread endless lies about immediate recession, job losses in financial services, crops rotting in the fields and attacks on foreigners.0 -
I should say by the way Alistair that your article about the abundance of information, using the metaphor of the Sultan of Timbuktu’s gold was pure poetry and was as good as anything I’ve read online all year.AlastairMeeks said:
Do as you please. I’m making a meaningful point about Leavers in the run-up to no deal Brexit. You seem to be missing any point to your observation.moonshine said:
Ooh this is a fun little maths game. How about we do the same thing but this time move columns for MPs that were elected in 2017 on a platform to effect Brexit and were signed up to a policy of a customs union (formal or quasi, doesn’t really matter)?AlastairMeeks said:
Look at the third meaningful vote and move dissident Leavers, including the DUP, from one column to the other. This is simply a point of fact.Currystardog said:
Simply not true, Parliament is 70% remianAlastairMeeks said:
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.Gabs2 said:
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.AlastairMeeks said:
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.Gabs2 said:
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.Gallowgate said:@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.0 -
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).Sean_F said:
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.Foxy said:
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.AndyJS said:"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.0 -
Why?Sean_F said:
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.Foxy said:
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.AndyJS said:"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.0 -
Me too. No regrets.Peter_the_Punter said:
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.Scott_P said:
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...Peter_the_Punter said:Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.0 -
Yeah, their argument seems to be that "no deal is going to be absolutely amazing, and it's all the fault of Remainers."Gardenwalker said:
And indeed, was predicted at the time.FF43 said:The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
Anyway, why do “No Dealers” seek to blame Remainers for No Deal when it appears they positively relish the opportunity to fuck the country?
The reality is that they're shitting themselves.0 -
First Group is shit.
My heart sinks whenever I see they’ve won another franchise.0
