politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » At this critical time reflections on “Cultivating Democracy”
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » At this critical time reflections on “Cultivating Democracy”
Occasionally I have planted a gorgeous looking plant; it has flowered briefly then died. On digging it up I find the dreaded wine weevil or roots which have made no attempt to spread into the soil and find nutrition. It is a reminder that nourishing the hidden roots is by far a gardener’s most important task. A plant not strong and well anchored will be blown away by the winds, destroyed by frost or succumb to malicious bugs and parasites.
Comments
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Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.1 -
Your ambivalence about Brexit shines through every post.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.0 -
Independent institutions who have their own role to play in ensuring good governance, proper scrutiny and a properly democratic culture: the press, the judiciary, all sorts of bodies from Burke’s little platoons to bodies set up by government to scrutinise and challenge and review.
What, like the Electoral Commission?0 -
Well I didn't/couldn't vote in the ref - can't get more ambivalent than that.williamglenn said:
Your ambivalence about Brexit shines through every post.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Being anti-remainiac while holding an Mayite view about it are hardly mutally exclusive.0 -
Yes me. Cyclefree writes with passion, and is logically consistent. One doesn't have to agree with everything she says.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
She is also just about as moderate a Remainer (if she actually has revealed finally that she is) as it is possible to find. Maybe if even the most mild mannered Brexit, meh voter, now appears to you to be ranting, perhaps it is a sign of how badly the Brexit side has ballsed everything up, and utterly alienated and infuriated everyone else?0 -
Like every other post by Cyclefree this is a lucid and far-seeing comment on the present situation. I see JBriskin does not have the patience to read it, never mind think about it, but it is nevertheless true.
Let's hope Boris has the ability to understand grown-up propositions when they are put to him..........0 -
An impatient dismissal of something you claim not to have read is not the best argument.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
As far as I can see....
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Reminds me of the joke-dixiedean said:
Yes me. Cyclefree writes with passion, and is logically consistent. One doesn't have to agree with everything she says.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
She is also just about as moderate a Remainer (if she actually has revealed finally that she is) as it is possible to find. Maybe if even the most mild mannered Brexit, meh voter, now appears to you to be ranting, perhaps it is a sign of how badly the Brexit side has ballsed everything up, and utterly alienated and infuriated everyone else?
I thought I was doing quite well on my wordsearch until I found out it was a Will Self column.
This one is just as impenetrable as the others.0 -
It's remarkable consist with your typical No Dealer though.Nigelb said:
An impatient dismissal of something you claim not to have read is not the best argument.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
As far as I can see....
I note in today's time that IDS wants a bare bones trade deal with the EU. As an trade deal will require the Backstop I'm struggling to work out exactly what he thinks he is asking for.0 -
Pah it's what the term TL;DR was designed for. Btw, I'm a speed reader so have special gifts.Nigelb said:
An impatient dismissal of something you claim not to have read is not the best argument.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
As far as I can see....0 -
I wouldn't mind but it's the second remoaner rant of the day - I'm only here avoiding the golf.topherdawson said:Like every other post by Cyclefree this is a lucid and far-seeing comment on the present situation. I see JBriskin does not have the patience to read it, never mind think about it, but it is nevertheless true.
Let's hope Boris has the ability to understand grown-up propositions when they are put to him..........0 -
Didn't and couldn't are two entirely different conditions. Which was it, if that doesn't strain you ambivalence?JBriskinindyref2 said:
Well I didn't/couldn't vote in the ref - can't get more ambivalent than that.williamglenn said:
Your ambivalence about Brexit shines through every post.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Being anti-remainiac while holding an Mayite view about it are hardly mutally exclusive.0 -
I couldn't vote but I probably wouldn't have anyway.Theuniondivvie said:
Didn't and couldn't are two entirely different conditions. Which was it, if that doesn't strain you ambivalence?JBriskinindyref2 said:
Well I didn't/couldn't vote in the ref - can't get more ambivalent than that.williamglenn said:
Your ambivalence about Brexit shines through every post.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Being anti-remainiac while holding an Mayite view about it are hardly mutally exclusive.0 -
Argumentation not being amongst them, apparently.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Pah it's what the term TL;DR was designed for. Btw, I'm a speed reader so have special gifts.Nigelb said:
An impatient dismissal of something you claim not to have read is not the best argument.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
As far as I can see....
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Oih - take that back - I am a sophist extraordinaireNigelb said:
Argumentation not being amongst them, apparently.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Pah it's what the term TL;DR was designed for. Btw, I'm a speed reader so have special gifts.Nigelb said:
An impatient dismissal of something you claim not to have read is not the best argument.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
As far as I can see....0 -
It is the same thing as the Brexit project - a simple solution to complex problems.eek said:
It's remarkable consist with your typical No Dealer though.Nigelb said:
An impatient dismissal of something you claim not to have read is not the best argument.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
As far as I can see....
I note in today's time that IDS wants a bare bones trade deal with the EU. As an trade deal will require the Backstop I'm struggling to work out exactly what he thinks he is asking for.
An attractive, but utterly illusory prospectus.
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Have you considered that this might say more about you than the article?JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
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She may well write With passion and consistenstly; I want to know what she writes On; I'll have what's she's having.dixiedean said:
Yes me. Cyclefree writes with passion, and is logically consistent. One doesn't have to agree with everything she says.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
She is also just about as moderate a Remainer (if she actually has revealed finally that she is) as it is possible to find. Maybe if even the most mild mannered Brexit, meh voter, now appears to you to be ranting, perhaps it is a sign of how badly the Brexit side has ballsed everything up, and utterly alienated and infuriated everyone else?0 -
Truth be told Ms Brisk has been censoring me a bit lately - but I'd managed to scribble out something for Meek's thread that got approval but this one popped up as I was all prepared to type.Andy_Cooke said:
Have you considered that this might say more about you than the article?JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.0 -
Yup, the Eton thread was more interesting but I had Groundhog day and The Big Short to re-watch.
Is Stewart really the only Etoner in contention. Would make a change.0 -
Did we all watch The Big Short then?
It's good isn't it. I went to bed though; seen it before.
I would have thought it would be right up the high-rolling economists of PB's street.0 -
There are 20 Old Etonian Conservative MPs, iirc. One is Boris; another is Rory; Kwasi a third. The other 17 are left as an exercise for the reader.JBriskinindyref2 said:Yup, the Eton thread was more interesting but I had Groundhog day and The Big Short to re-watch.
Is Stewart really the only Etoner in contention. Would make a change.
Are they in contention? For what?
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Cyclefree is one of the most lucid, rational, liberal and tolerant posters on here. About as far away from a "rambling remainiac" as it gets.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Great post, Cyclefree. As always.
The problem with our democracy is that FPTP grants too much power to a minority. You only need to secure 35% or so of the vote to impact 100% of the country.
In an era when people no longer compromise nor take the country as a whole into account, I fear the long term damage to country, economy and democracy a narrow, ideologically obsessive Brexit Party or Labour Party government could do.0 -
You just have to approach it with the same self-discipline and air of resignation as if you were attempting to read Zettel's Traum.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.0 -
Pb Tories hate The Big Short because it does not blame Gordon Brown.JBriskinindyref2 said:Did we all watch The Big Short then?
It's good isn't it. I went to bed though; seen it before.
I would have thought it would be right up the high-rolling economists of PB's street.
I can't be bothered with a film that does not even mention Gordon Brown.
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Kwasi?????? Isn't he, err, y'know - a bit exotic for an etonian?DecrepitJohnL said:
There are 20 Old Etonian Conservative MPs, iirc. One is Boris; another is Rory; Kwasi a third. The other 17 are left as an exercise for the reader.JBriskinindyref2 said:Yup, the Eton thread was more interesting but I had Groundhog day and The Big Short to re-watch.
Is Stewart really the only Etoner in contention. Would make a change.
Are they in contention? For what?0 -
Coming this week, a sea change in British politics. It’s not merely Tory leader replacing Tory leader as PM as Amber Rudd is trying to kid herself, it’s a profound change. To use a PB metaphor to illustrate, Big G out of Downing Street, HY striding in.
To illustrate it another way, Boris is PM, Javid Chancellor, Priti Patel Home Secretary, Ian Duncan Smith Deputy PM, Shapps Chief Whip, a top job for Williamson too, possibly health if Hancock replaces Hunt at FO.
In terms of policy, the idea we can only leave EU with a deal is on the fire, its gone. Also we’ll have a Downing Street doing a big cuddle up with Trumps White House.
There’s no standing in the hallway blocking this door, the times are a changing.0 -
It's women who are too exotic for Eton.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Kwasi?????? Isn't he, err, y'know - a bit exotic for an etonian?DecrepitJohnL said:
There are 20 Old Etonian Conservative MPs, iirc. One is Boris; another is Rory; Kwasi a third. The other 17 are left as an exercise for the reader.JBriskinindyref2 said:Yup, the Eton thread was more interesting but I had Groundhog day and The Big Short to re-watch.
Is Stewart really the only Etoner in contention. Would make a change.
Are they in contention? For what?0 -
Excellent post .kyf_100 said:
Cyclefree is one of the most lucid, rational, liberal and tolerant posters on here. About as far away from a "rambling remainiac" as it gets.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Great post, Cyclefree. As always.
The problem with our democracy is that FPTP grants too much power to a minority. You only need to secure 35% or so of the vote to impact 100% of the country.
In an era when people no longer compromise nor take the country as a whole into account, I fear the long term damage to country, economy and democracy a narrow, ideologically obsessive Brexit Party or Labour Party government could do.
The FPTP was just about bearable when there’s wasn’t such a polarized electorate . But now fundamental changes to the country could happen with a huge majority against that .
The stakes have become much higher now with Brexit and Trump in the WH.
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The problem is that the European questions are either/or questions. Either we are part of the single market with free movement of people, or we aren’t. Either we are in the customs union, or we aren’t.kyf_100 said:
Cyclefree is one of the most lucid, rational, liberal and tolerant posters on here. About as far away from a "rambling remainiac" as it gets.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Great post, Cyclefree. As always.
The problem with our democracy is that FPTP grants too much power to a minority. You only need to secure 35% or so of the vote to impact 100% of the country.
In an era when people no longer compromise nor take the country as a whole into account, I fear the long term damage to country, economy and democracy a narrow, ideologically obsessive Brexit Party or Labour Party government could do.1 -
Yes if you break it down to that level of granularity, but the question asked was "membership of the EU" YES/NO. We could have left the EU but retained a lot of the relationship and thus limited the damage.tlg86 said:
The problem is that the European questions are either/or questions. Either we are part of the single market with free movement of people, or we aren’t. Either we are in the customs union, or we aren’t.kyf_100 said:
Cyclefree is one of the most lucid, rational, liberal and tolerant posters on here. About as far away from a "rambling remainiac" as it gets.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Great post, Cyclefree. As always.
The problem with our democracy is that FPTP grants too much power to a minority. You only need to secure 35% or so of the vote to impact 100% of the country.
In an era when people no longer compromise nor take the country as a whole into account, I fear the long term damage to country, economy and democracy a narrow, ideologically obsessive Brexit Party or Labour Party government could do.
If the answer to every question of our relationship with the EU is no, then we are condemning ourselves to economic and political weakness. Even Dan Hannam said he wanted to retain membership of the single market.
Since the debate has been framed in this way, since the referendum, there has been a backlash- the No dealers say no to anything and every compromise has been trashed.
The result is that the Pro_EU camp is digging in as a reaction. The battle may well be re-run and this time the uncompromising leavers will be defeated.0 -
Don't speak too soon for the wheel's still in spin.Zephyr said:There’s no standing in the hallway blocking this door, the times are a changing.
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Personally I’m not nearly as worried about FPTP as @kyf_100 - if the Lib Dem’s win a majority on 35% (or less) of the vote, so be it. Likewise the Tories or TBP.Cicero said:
Yes if you break it down to that level of granularity, but the question asked was "membership of the EU" YES/NO. We could have left the EU but retained a lot of the relationship and thus limited the damage.tlg86 said:
The problem is that the European questions are either/or questions. Either we are part of the single market with free movement of people, or we aren’t. Either we are in the customs union, or we aren’t.kyf_100 said:
Cyclefree is one of the most lucid, rational, liberal and tolerant posters on here. About as far away from a "rambling remainiac" as it gets.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Great post, Cyclefree. As always.
The problem with our democracy is that FPTP grants too much power to a minority. You only need to secure 35% or so of the vote to impact 100% of the country.
In an era when people no longer compromise nor take the country as a whole into account, I fear the long term damage to country, economy and democracy a narrow, ideologically obsessive Brexit Party or Labour Party government could do.
If the answer to every question of our relationship with the EU is no, then we are condemning ourselves to economic and political weakness. Even Dan Hannam said he wanted to retain membership of the single market.
Since the debate has been framed in this way, since the referendum, there has been a backlash- the No dealers say no to anything and every compromise has been trashed.
The result is that the Pro_EU camp is digging in as a reaction. The battle may well be re-run and this time the uncompromising leavers will be defeated.
MPs had their chance to secure Brexit, they didn’t, and now they have to accept the consequences, whatever they may be.0 -
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.0 -
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca0 -
The header is not about Remain or Leave or even about Brexit. It is about what distinguishes a liberal democracy from an elected dictatorship or even fascism. If you want the TL;DR summary, try the bullet list at the bottom.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
OT didn't we used to call them blobs before American word-processors came along?0 -
I've always called them bullet points.DecrepitJohnL said:
The header is not about Remain or Leave or even about Brexit. It is about what distinguishes a liberal democracy from an elected dictatorship or even fascism. If you want the TL;DR summary, try the bullet list at the bottom.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
OT didn't we used to call them blobs before American word-processors came along?
And yes I've read them. It's a difficult lead into them though;
Are these good things or bad things.
I'm thinking these are the bad things; they are written by someone who wants to keep weed illegal after all.
I've always been a pro-social democracy kind of guy anyway. If this is a pro-liberal democracy piece then this does kind of explain the verbiage nonsense.0 -
It’s as much about what Labour’s difficulties say about their approach to government as Brexit. Indeed, my point is that if you step back from the immediate policy issues there are some long-term dangers to our democracy which need addressing.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
I hope that is short enough for you.0 -
The quote means that people don't live their lives according to abstract principles, so in practice politics requires compromise rather than simply seeking consensus.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca0 -
I've been reading more and more of it as I re-load the page.Cyclefree said:
It’s as much about what Labour’s difficulties say about their approach to government as Brexit. Indeed, my point is that if you step back from the immediate policy issues there are some long-term dangers to our democracy which need addressing.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
I hope that is short enough for you.
You're not a Rushdie fan are you?0 -
As you see from the universal reaction to your post, you're just speaking for yourself. Most of us appreciate Cyclefree even when we disagree with her (quite often, in my case, though not for this one).JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
But don't let that stop you submitting a header of your own.0 -
Well thanks however that still needs translated-williamglenn said:
The quote means that people don't live their lives according to abstract principles, so in practice politics requires compromise rather than simply seeking consensus.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca
What's the difference between compromise and consensus?0 -
No. I’ve never managed to read one of his novels. But I don’t read much fiction so tend to be very selective in what I do read.JBriskinindyref2 said:
I've been reading more and more of it as I re-load the page.Cyclefree said:
It’s as much about what Labour’s difficulties say about their approach to government as Brexit. Indeed, my point is that if you step back from the immediate policy issues there are some long-term dangers to our democracy which need addressing.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
I hope that is short enough for you.
You're not a Rushdie fan are you?
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I have read all your thread and generally agree with most of your observationsCyclefree said:
It’s as much about what Labour’s difficulties say about their approach to government as Brexit. Indeed, my point is that if you step back from the immediate policy issues there are some long-term dangers to our democracy which need addressing.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
I hope that is short enough for you.
We are in a very unstable place at present and something must happen on brexit to enable politics to move forward.
What that 'something' is must come into view by 31st October as it is the default date in legislation that we leave. As was commented on this morning the date is now UK law and it is also EU law.0 -
A swing and a miss!Cyclefree said:
No. I’ve never managed to read one of his novels. But I don’t read much fiction so tend to be very selective in what I do read.JBriskinindyref2 said:
I've been reading more and more of it as I re-load the page.Cyclefree said:
It’s as much about what Labour’s difficulties say about their approach to government as Brexit. Indeed, my point is that if you step back from the immediate policy issues there are some long-term dangers to our democracy which need addressing.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
I hope that is short enough for you.
You're not a Rushdie fan are you?0 -
What's happening in the Japanese Senatorial elections, EiT? The LDP cruising to another win?0
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My very wise late Father in Law was an avid reader and never read any fictionCyclefree said:
No. I’ve never managed to read one of his novels. But I don’t read much fiction so tend to be very selective in what I do read.JBriskinindyref2 said:
I've been reading more and more of it as I re-load the page.Cyclefree said:
It’s as much about what Labour’s difficulties say about their approach to government as Brexit. Indeed, my point is that if you step back from the immediate policy issues there are some long-term dangers to our democracy which need addressing.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
I hope that is short enough for you.
You're not a Rushdie fan are you?
He maintained that if he read non fiction 24 hours a day through his lifetime he still would not have exhausted the supply of non fiction. He lived to 86, bless him0 -
If Mike ever published a thread of mine I think I might actually die of excitement and I'm not even being sarcastic.NickPalmer said:
As you see from the universal reaction to your post, you're just speaking for yourself. Most of us appreciate Cyclefree even when we disagree with her (quite often, in my case, though not for this one).JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
But don't let that stop you submitting a header of your own.0 -
Good move making IDS deputy PM. .He's the only person who can make Johnson sound sane2
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lol at Hammond "stepping down" before getting fired.....0
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If I thought you might pay attention rather than just hurl abuse I’d quote the passage from which this quote is taken, which explains it far more lucidly than I would be able to.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Well thanks however that still needs translated-williamglenn said:
The quote means that people don't live their lives according to abstract principles, so in practice politics requires compromise rather than simply seeking consensus.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca
What's the difference between compromise and consensus?
But I have an appointment to go to so will check in later.0 -
Well I'm sorry you seem to be under the missapprehension that I'm here to hurl abuse.Cyclefree said:
If I thought you might pay attention rather than just hurl abuse I’d quote the passage from which this quote is taken, which explains it far more lucidly than I would be able to.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Well thanks however that still needs translated-williamglenn said:
The quote means that people don't live their lives according to abstract principles, so in practice politics requires compromise rather than simply seeking consensus.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca
What's the difference between compromise and consensus?
But I have an appointment to go to so will check in later.
Catch ya later.0 -
In a world which gives you google for free, you should try doing some of your own work. You might even find the exercise educative.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca
To get you started, illation is an archaic synonym for conclusion.
Are you someone who finds Shakespeare irritating because of the difficult words ?
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Yes - I fucking hate Shakespere. Home run for you.Nigelb said:
In a world which gives you google for free, you should try doing some of your own work. You might even find the exercise educative.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca
To get you started, illation is an archaic synonym for conclusion.
Are you someone who finds Shakespeare irritating because of the difficult words ?0 -
Yup, solid majority, but probably just short of the super-majority they and their allies would need to amend the constitution.NickPalmer said:What's happening in the Japanese Senatorial elections, EiT? The LDP cruising to another win?
Opposition further consolidated around the Constitutional Democrats, Socialists seem to have lost their last seat, beaten out by the Protect the People from NHK Party, who are operating a callcenter for people who are having trouble with their TV license collector.0 -
Your loss.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Yes - I fucking hate Shakespere. Home run for you.Nigelb said:
In a world which gives you google for free, you should try doing some of your own work. You might even find the exercise educative.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca
To get you started, illation is an archaic synonym for conclusion.
Are you someone who finds Shakespeare irritating because of the difficult words ?
Catch ya later.0 -
Afternoon all
Thanks, as always, Cyclefree for an interesting piece. My late mother always said the end of civilisation began when they got rid of the park keepers because it showed that once the cost of looking after the park was deemed more important than the unquantifiable beauty, sense of community and identity a well looked-after park provided, we were on the long slippery slope to destruction.
"The cost of everything, the value of nothing" - sums up societal and individual attitudes.
I'd argue the systematic centralisation of activities has been a huge factor in undermining democracy - Westminster is all, the local council or authority has little or no real authority but plenty of responsibility. It can't even set its own tax rates but has to build a number of new houses proscribed by Government diktat.
The Mayor of Newham (350,000) is as powerless as the leader of Surrey (1.2 million) for all they are party political polar opposites, they all too often sing the same tune.
It's not even about transparency or accountability important as they are - it's about power, pure and simple. Proper English devolution away from Westminster to existing local authorities (no need for regional assemblies) backed by PR for local elections to try to break down the one-party states (whether Surrey, Newham or Sutton) and get people back into believing their vote/opinion counts not just as a consultation tick-box exercise but as a genuine part of decision making.2 -
Good afternoon, my fellow eggs, small fries, and assorted crack hemps (though I trust we have no three-inch fools).0
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Cyclefree for Prime Minister!0
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Good point - but you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.williamglenn said:
Don't speak too soon for the wheel's still in spin.Zephyr said:There’s no standing in the hallway blocking this door, the times are a changing.
0 -
Why does that not surprise me?JBriskinindyref2 said:
Yes - I fucking hate Shakespere. Home run for you.Nigelb said:
In a world which gives you google for free, you should try doing some of your own work. You might even find the exercise educative.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca
To get you started, illation is an archaic synonym for conclusion.
Are you someone who finds Shakespeare irritating because of the difficult words ?0 -
Why, what a question's that?OllyT said:
Why does that not surprise me?JBriskinindyref2 said:
Yes - I fucking hate Shakespere. Home run for you.Nigelb said:
In a world which gives you google for free, you should try doing some of your own work. You might even find the exercise educative.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Fine.OllyT said:
Some people don't want to engage with the argument and just seek to dismiss anything that doesn't suit their agenda. Perhaps you could construct a reasoned counter-argument to what Cyclefree has said and we could discuss them both.JBriskinindyref2 said:Has anyone actually managed to read a Cyclefree thread without skipping a paragraph or two.
This is just another rambling Remainiac rant as far as I can see.
Can you please translate the nonsense Burke quote for me first so I can get started given I only speak the lingua franca
To get you started, illation is an archaic synonym for conclusion.
Are you someone who finds Shakespeare irritating because of the difficult words ?
Yet 'tis a question
To me that know not
To the games, my friend0 -
The Lib Dems should have made PR for local government their electoral reform goal during the coalition years rather than the humiliation that was the AV referendum. But it goes to show that the Lib Dems are as self interested as any party.stodge said:Afternoon all
Thanks, as always, Cyclefree for an interesting piece. My late mother always said the end of civilisation began when they got rid of the park keepers because it showed that once the cost of looking after the park was deemed more important than the unquantifiable beauty, sense of community and identity a well looked-after park provided, we were on the long slippery slope to destruction.
"The cost of everything, the value of nothing" - sums up societal and individual attitudes.
I'd argue the systematic centralisation of activities has been a huge factor in undermining democracy - Westminster is all, the local council or authority has little or no real authority but plenty of responsibility. It can't even set its own tax rates but has to build a number of new houses proscribed by Government diktat.
The Mayor of Newham (350,000) is as powerless as the leader of Surrey (1.2 million) for all they are party political polar opposites, they all too often sing the same tune.
It's not even about transparency or accountability important as they are - it's about power, pure and simple. Proper English devolution away from Westminster to existing local authorities (no need for regional assemblies) backed by PR for local elections to try to break down the one-party states (whether Surrey, Newham or Sutton) and get people back into believing their vote/opinion counts not just as a consultation tick-box exercise but as a genuine part of decision making.
Chance of greater influence at national level > Real change to the fiefdom of some local councils that just get run into the ground like Northamptonshire
1 -
Lowry bogies on the 8th.
Bet some of you plebs are well jell.
I don't even like golf!!!0 -
Thomas has blown up again...chances of tour defence over.0
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To be honest that is your priviledge. It is not compulsoryJBriskinindyref2 said:Lowry bogies on the 8th.
Bet some of you plebs are well jell.
I don't even like golf!!!
But many of us who have played golf do like it-1 -
Anaphilip blown up....what a tour de france.0
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Okay - no more spoilers from me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be honest that is your priviledge. It is not compulsoryJBriskinindyref2 said:Lowry bogies on the 8th.
Bet some of you plebs are well jell.
I don't even like golf!!!
But many of us who have played golf do like it0 -
Ienos have to put all their efforts into bernal.0
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Cyclefree's headers always make me think. I don't have to agree with what she says to appreciate the quality of what and how she writes. Does anyone know (Cyclefree herself would !) if she is published elsewhere - or is PB her only outlet ?0
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This has to be one of the best tour de frances in a long long time.0
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Dems need to ignore Trump and talk about ObamaCare.0
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Great header Cyclefree. Some slight disagreements at the fringes, though. For example, I am not sure you can absolutely say that over-ruling (which is not ignoring) Parliament's wishes is undemocratic* if those wishes are in opposition to the stated and measured wishes of the electorate.
A leader sometimes has to decide between conflicting advise, and Parliament is not the sole, indeed, it is not the ultimate, source of democracy.
* even if it is unconstitutional, it does not automatically make it undemocratic0 -
Yep. At least 6 possible winners. Alaphillipe's really suffering from a comparatively weak team. If isolated again, he looked beatable today for the first time. Showed some naivety in trying to stay out in front then going backwards, instead of riding at his own pace.FrancisUrquhart said:This has to be one of the best tour de frances in a long long time.
So much better when Sky aren't ahead and closing it down.0 -
Its ok - watching it live.JBriskinindyref2 said:
Okay - no more spoilers from me.Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be honest that is your priviledge. It is not compulsoryJBriskinindyref2 said:Lowry bogies on the 8th.
Bet some of you plebs are well jell.
I don't even like golf!!!
But many of us who have played golf do like it0 -
Pinot looks favourite.dixiedean said:
Yep. At least 6 possible winners. Alaphillipe's really suffering from a comparatively weak team. If isolated again, he looked beatable today for the first time. Showed some naivety in trying to stay out in front then going backwards, instead of riding at his own pace.FrancisUrquhart said:This has to be one of the best tour de frances in a long long time.
So much better when Sky aren't ahead and closing it down.0 -
Best everyone ignores Trumprottenborough said:Dems need to ignore Trump and talk about ObamaCare.
0 -
I know the old saying that democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner, but with FPTP allowing a majority at 35%ish, it's not even that. It's one wolf eating two sheep.tlg86 said:
Personally I’m not nearly as worried about FPTP as @kyf_100 - if the Lib Dem’s win a majority on 35% (or less) of the vote, so be it. Likewise the Tories or TBP.Cicero said:
Yes if you break it down to that level of granularity, but the question asked was "membership of the EU" YES/NO. We could have left the EU but retained a lot of the relationship and thus limited the damage.tlg86 said:
The problem is that the European questions are either/or questions. Either we are part of the single market with free movement of people, or we aren’t. Either we are in the customs union, or we aren’t.
If the answer to every question of our relationship with the EU is no, then we are condemning ourselves to economic and political weakness. Even Dan Hannam said he wanted to retain membership of the single market.
Since the debate has been framed in this way, since the referendum, there has been a backlash- the No dealers say no to anything and every compromise has been trashed.
The result is that the Pro_EU camp is digging in as a reaction. The battle may well be re-run and this time the uncompromising leavers will be defeated.
MPs had their chance to secure Brexit, they didn’t, and now they have to accept the consequences, whatever they may be.
It means that Brexit Party could take us out of the EU without a deal, or Corbyn could embark the country on the path to full socialism with the consent of just one third of the populace.
In saner times, FPTP works. But the stakes now are much higher. Because as Cyclefree points out, parties no longer believe their duty is to the country. It is to ideological purity. Is a no deal brexit to be foist on the entire country because one third of the population believes in it? Is hard left socialism?
The kind of policies now being espoused by the main parties should require majority consent. They don't, and that will be revealed as a major failiure of our democracy when a radical party takes control of the country under FPTP.1 -
Wouldn't count any of top 6 out of it. Alaphillipe looked utterly spent at the end. Rest day comes right for him.FrancisUrquhart said:
Pinot looks favourite.dixiedean said:
Yep. At least 6 possible winners. Alaphillipe's really suffering from a comparatively weak team. If isolated again, he looked beatable today for the first time. Showed some naivety in trying to stay out in front then going backwards, instead of riding at his own pace.FrancisUrquhart said:This has to be one of the best tour de frances in a long long time.
So much better when Sky aren't ahead and closing it down.0 -
The basic traditional strength of FPTP is not that it “requires” Govts to act with the consent of a majority of the electorate. In fact almost by definition this is not required. It is that if Govt’s pursue radical change it will only likely endure if they can take significant support with them along the way. Because whereas many may ‘normally’ vote for their party of first choice, our system allow them to coalesce in opposition to unfavourable Govts. And kick them out.kyf_100 said:
I know the old saying that democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner, but with FPTP allowing a majority at 35%ish, it's not even that. It's one wolf eating two sheep.tlg86 said:
Personally I’m not nearly as worried about FPTP as @kyf_100 - if the Lib Dem’s win a majority on 35% (or less) of the vote, so be it. Likewise the Tories or TBP.Cicero said:
Yes if you break it down to that level of granularity, but the question asked was "membership of the EU" YES/NO. We could have left the EU but retained a lot of the relationship and thus limited the damage.tlg86 said:
The problem is that the European questions are either/or questions. Either we are part of the single market with free movement of people, or we aren’t. Either we are in the customs union, or we aren’t.
If the answer to every question of our relationship with the EU is no, then we are condemning ourselves to economic and political weakness. Even Dan Hannam said he wanted to retain membership of the single market.
Since the debate has been framed in this way, since the referendum, there has been a backlash- the No dealers say no to anything and every compromise has been trashed.
The result is that the Pro_EU camp is digging in as a reaction. The battle may well be re-run and this time the uncompromising leavers will be defeated.
MPs had their chance to secure Brexit, they didn’t, and now they have to accept the consequences, whatever they may be.
It means that Brexit Party could take us out of the EU without a deal, or Corbyn could embark the country on the path to full socialism with the consent of just one third of the populace.
In saner times, FPTP works. But the stakes now are much higher. Because as Cyclefree points out, parties no longer believe their duty is to the country. It is to ideological purity. Is a no deal brexit to be foist on the entire country because one third of the population believes in it? Is hard left socialism?
The kind of policies now being espoused by the main parties should require majority consent. They don't, and that will be revealed as a major failiure of our democracy when a radical party takes control of the country under FPTP.
1 -
Thomas is going to be need to get puffing from Froome's Asthma inhaler on the rest day if he stands any chance.dixiedean said:
Wouldn't count any of top 6 out of it. Alaphillipe looked utterly spent at the end. Rest day comes right for him.FrancisUrquhart said:
Pinot looks favourite.dixiedean said:
Yep. At least 6 possible winners. Alaphillipe's really suffering from a comparatively weak team. If isolated again, he looked beatable today for the first time. Showed some naivety in trying to stay out in front then going backwards, instead of riding at his own pace.FrancisUrquhart said:This has to be one of the best tour de frances in a long long time.
So much better when Sky aren't ahead and closing it down.0 -
These things hinge on your definition of radical.kyf_100 said:
The kind of policies now being espoused by the main parties should require majority consent. They don't, and that will be revealed as a major failiure of our democracy when a radical party takes control of the country under FPTP.
I, for instance, would contend both Thatcher and Blair’s governments were radical.
Given the two party system now appears finished due, I would say, to the creeping towards each other of the last few governments, FPTP has become indefensible.2 -
Final ConservativeHome Tory members' survey, Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.
94% of respondents said they had now voted
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/07/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted.html0 -
Mr. That, welcome to PB.
I disagree with your assertion entirely. The notion that FPTP is finished because of the last few governments (ie potentially governing parties) becoming too similar is clearly wrong given the current major parties include the reds going far left.0 -
My thoughts precisely. I like FPTP because you can change the government. If that means a very pro-EU Lib Dem government, I’ll accept it, even if I might not like it.beentheredonethat said:
These things hinge on your definition of radical.kyf_100 said:
The kind of policies now being espoused by the main parties should require majority consent. They don't, and that will be revealed as a major failiure of our democracy when a radical party takes control of the country under FPTP.
I, for instance, would contend both Thatcher and Blair’s governments were radical.
Given the two party system now appears finished due, I would say, to the creeping towards each other of the last few governments, FPTP has become indefensible.0 -
Dems need to talk about Obamacare and impeach Trump.rottenborough said:Dems need to ignore Trump and talk about ObamaCare.
0 -
What happens if it is wrong by 10% or more ? 65-35 ?HYUFD said:Final ConservativeHome Tory members' survey, Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.
94% of respondents said they had now voted
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/07/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted.html
0 -
An interesting thread header, but what will the long term democratic implications of Brexit (As I expect) not being delivered in any way shape or form.
I think it'll show fundamentally that no decision taken actually has to take place, particularly if the people who took the original decision are the "little people" for want of a better word. It might be the right decision, but like the abysmal moral hazard caused by the 2008 GFC bailouts (Which was probably fundamental to both the Brexit decision and Trump) will have profound unintended consequences into the future.
If Brexit does not go ahead in a soft form in the next couple of years, we could still head to leaving without a deal in the next decade or so - if TBP trump the Tories as Boris the bluffer "shakes with fear upon hearing the consequences of no deal" we could yet head to ship wreck waters.
It took 8 years from the crash to Trump, who knows where we might be from the non implementation of a soft Brexit ?2 -
You mean you don't like the European system where it's the same sort of party, save a change in coalition partners, for decades?tlg86 said:
My thoughts precisely. I like FPTP because you can change the government. If that means a very pro-EU Lib Dem government, I’ll accept it, even if I might not like it.beentheredonethat said:
These things hinge on your definition of radical.kyf_100 said:
The kind of policies now being espoused by the main parties should require majority consent. They don't, and that will be revealed as a major failiure of our democracy when a radical party takes control of the country under FPTP.
I, for instance, would contend both Thatcher and Blair’s governments were radical.
Given the two party system now appears finished due, I would say, to the creeping towards each other of the last few governments, FPTP has become indefensible.
1 -
Stodge, have your read Holacracy, or Reinventing Organizations? I think you'd enjoy both as another view of how groups should make decisions as locally as possible, but in a scalable manner.stodge said:Afternoon all
Thanks, as always, Cyclefree for an interesting piece. My late mother always said the end of civilisation began when they got rid of the park keepers because it showed that once the cost of looking after the park was deemed more important than the unquantifiable beauty, sense of community and identity a well looked-after park provided, we were on the long slippery slope to destruction.
"The cost of everything, the value of nothing" - sums up societal and individual attitudes.
I'd argue the systematic centralisation of activities has been a huge factor in undermining democracy - Westminster is all, the local council or authority has little or no real authority but plenty of responsibility. It can't even set its own tax rates but has to build a number of new houses proscribed by Government diktat.
The Mayor of Newham (350,000) is as powerless as the leader of Surrey (1.2 million) for all they are party political polar opposites, they all too often sing the same tune.
It's not even about transparency or accountability important as they are - it's about power, pure and simple. Proper English devolution away from Westminster to existing local authorities (no need for regional assemblies) backed by PR for local elections to try to break down the one-party states (whether Surrey, Newham or Sutton) and get people back into believing their vote/opinion counts not just as a consultation tick-box exercise but as a genuine part of decision making.0 -
Still a Boris landslide and a bigger margin than IDS beat Clarke, if not quite as big as Cameron beat Davis whereas it is a bigger margin than that currentlysurbiton19 said:
What happens if it is wrong by 10% or more ? 65-35 ?HYUFD said:Final ConservativeHome Tory members' survey, Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.
94% of respondents said they had now voted
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/07/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted.html0 -
Or 65-20-15 spoiled?surbiton19 said:
What happens if it is wrong by 10% or more ? 65-35 ?HYUFD said:Final ConservativeHome Tory members' survey, Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.
94% of respondents said they had now voted
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/07/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted.html0 -
Shouldn't you be representing pb at the Epping Ongar Railway Real Ale Festival?HYUFD said:Final ConservativeHome Tory members' survey, Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.
94% of respondents said they had now voted
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/07/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted.html
https://www.eorailway.co.uk/events/real-ale-festival/0 -
Surely he’s already booked, having to man the Start the War Coalition stall?DecrepitJohnL said:
Shouldn't you be representing pb at the Epping Ongar Railway Real Ale Festival?HYUFD said:Final ConservativeHome Tory members' survey, Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.
94% of respondents said they had now voted
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/07/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted.html
https://www.eorailway.co.uk/events/real-ale-festival/0 -
I did the town show at the beginning of the month but no, off to see the new Lion King film now.DecrepitJohnL said:
Shouldn't you be representing pb at the Epping Ongar Railway Real Ale Festival?HYUFD said:Final ConservativeHome Tory members' survey, Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.
94% of respondents said they had now voted
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/07/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted.html
https://www.eorailway.co.uk/events/real-ale-festival/
Sunil maybe there though technically it is in North Weald not Epping, although there is a bus to it from Epping Station0 -
This is one of those fallacies put about by proponents of FPTP. It doesn't stop "radical" Governments if the radical message is genuinely popular. Nor does it prevent changes of Government.tlg86 said:
My thoughts precisely. I like FPTP because you can change the government. If that means a very pro-EU Lib Dem government, I’ll accept it, even if I might not like it.
My guess is as we have seen elsewhere there would be a centre-right grouping of parties and a centre-left grouping of parties, perhaps one or two moving between the two blocs and parties sitting wholly outside the blocs. That's called plural democracy and it's no bad thing.
Each party would be an ideologically tighter and more distinct grouping as the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat voting coalitions separated into more clearly defined groups.0 -
No, that is next weekendIanB2 said:
Surely he’s already booked, having to man the Start the War Coalition stall?DecrepitJohnL said:
Shouldn't you be representing pb at the Epping Ongar Railway Real Ale Festival?HYUFD said:Final ConservativeHome Tory members' survey, Johnson 73% Hunt 27%.
94% of respondents said they had now voted
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/07/our-final-next-tory-leader-survey-johnson-73-per-cent-hunt-27-per-cent-say-those-members-who-have-voted.html
https://www.eorailway.co.uk/events/real-ale-festival/0 -
Thank you for your kind welcome.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. That, welcome to PB.
I disagree with your assertion entirely. The notion that FPTP is finished because of the last few governments (ie potentially governing parties) becoming too similar is clearly wrong given the current major parties include the reds going far left.
I fear I failed to make my meaning entirely clear.
I meant that the coming together of the two largest parties meant that many potential voters did not want to vote for a “Tory-lite” Labour Party or a “quasi-socialist” Conservative one. Therefore other parties have grown to capture a significant part of the electorate and this widening of choice meant that no party stood a realistic chance of capturing enough of the electoral vote to be a real “party of government” any more. A government with as low a percentage of the national vote as we are likely to see next time will struggle to be able to say truthfully it has been popularly elected and every policy will be seized upon by opponents saying “You don’t have a democratic mandate with only X% of the vote”.
I hope this makes my meaning clearer.0
