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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is a good moment to recall the MP stage of the 2001 Tory

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,333

    At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
    Jeremy Hunt is the Tory Mitt Romney or Jeb Bush
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,031
    JackW said:

    I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.

    However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.

    Wot, no new range of Palace of Westminster Pies?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    I don't agree that people can mislead and half-truth their way to victory in a referendum where the decision will be incredibly difficult to reverse. It's not like simply electing a different government in 5 years time.

    That is not liberal democracy. Democracy relies on informed and educated decisions to work properly. Otherwise its just tyranny of the mob.
    Precisely. There are many historical examples of decisions taken by referendums which proved ultimately disastrous. France 1850s, Germany 1930s for instance.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,457
    Chris said:

    Is there any reason to think Javid wasn't boosted by Johnsonite proxy votes yesterday, in the same way that Rory evidently was the day before?
    I don't think Johnson wanted Rory in the debate, possibly some of the others did.

    Javid next out I think.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    By handing the EU £39bn and pissing away £9bn in Foreign Aid?

    Interesting definition of financial prudence.

    Ok, I’m going to bite.

    £15bn roughly is settlement of debts and liabilities. Do you believe the U.K. should welsh on its debts?

    £25bn roughly is two years net payments during the transition period. That is a policy decision by the government but it’s not “handing” money to the EU. We are getting something in return

    On Foreign Aid, as things stand, we have a legal obligation to spend 0.7% of GDP. Do you think the Chancellor should break the law?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,333
    justin124 said:

    I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.

    Sorry to hear that Justin and hope they catch the mugger.

    I had a friend who was mugged by a group a few months ago at knife point, we must crack down hard on knife crime
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,756

    I don't agree that people can mislead and half-truth their way to victory in a referendum where the decision will be incredibly difficult to reverse. It's not like simply electing a different government in 5 years time.

    That is not liberal democracy. Democracy relies on informed and educated decisions to work properly. Otherwise its just tyranny of the mob.
    You might not agree with it but thats how it is, and you still appear not to notice that one mans truth is another mans lies. People judge situations by their own circumstances and values. In a referendum they vote on what they think is in their own interests.

    I can quite happily accept than many remainers voted for what they thought was best for them, as indeed they should. I struggle however to see why remainers cant accept that leavers will have done the same.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sky News - As Theresa May is on EU business she has given her proxy vote to Charles Walker of the 1922 Committee.

    No peeking Chas ....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,986

    No, it just tells you the survey is bollocks.
    More positivity, man!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,756

    Except with referenda or so it seems. The electorate is not allowed to change its mind, according to some. Eventually it will, of course
    Its very simple. You implement the decision. If you want to subsequently change that then you campaign, put a vote to the electorate and take your chances. Thats how our system works.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,932
    HYUFD said:

    Thatcher refused to endorse Portillo over IDS, she only made an official endorsement once one of them faced Clarke, for IDS
    I was referring to her endorsement of him early in his career. But clearly her enthusiasm cooled. Nevertheless, to lose out to the Quiet Man...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    That's the sort of angry throwaway (trolling) remark you see more on the Guido Fawkes website than here, if I may say so. It seems to me there is a massive spectrum on this site which is great, but 'pissing away' is not really a helpful way to describe our internationally agreed foreign aid response and 'handing' the EU what amounts to our obligation under previously agreed terms and conditions is also a tad intemperate? I think that rather illustrates Alastair's point though. There is a massive chasm between you/tory members and the rest of the country. IDS is as far removed from where the mainstream of this country sits as you can currently conceive.
    Frankly I think the survey is garbage.

    I’m pretty politically aware but all I really remember about IDS is his work on welfare reform. There have certainly been errors in execution and George Osborne undermines the whole thing (hence IDS resigning), but the philosophy behind universal credit is good and well thought through.

    I suspect that many of the respondents are thinking of that rather than his time as leader 15 years ago
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    I agree that in some cases what might be in your best interest may be opposed to what is in my best interest. However when someone thinks its in their best interest when it actually isn't, then what?

    Maybe because they've been lied to and misled?

    You seem to think that the only people in favour of the EU are well off...
    and all leavers are poor.....
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    I'm against referenda in general, but given the mess we're in a new one may be the only way out.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see Prime Minister Boris deciding between a GE that he might look like losing and a new referendum where he stays as PM.
    No no and no again !! .... JackW is not for turning.

    No more Sir. Enough already. Get the bloody job done. No best of three. No diversion or evasion. Get a bloody grip and get the job done !!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,756
    Charles said:

    Ok, I’m going to bite.

    £15bn roughly is settlement of debts and liabilities. Do you believe the U.K. should welsh on its debts?

    £25bn roughly is two years net payments during the transition period. That is a policy decision by the government but it’s not “handing” money to the EU. We are getting something in return

    On Foreign Aid, as things stand, we have a legal obligation to spend 0.7% of GDP. Do you think the Chancellor should break the law?
    I think the Foreign Aid law should be repealed and our kids given free Uni places with the freed up cash.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,005
    JackW said:

    No no and no again !! .... JackW is not for turning.

    No more Sir. Enough already. Get the bloody job done. No best of three. No diversion or evasion. Get a bloody grip and get the job done !!
    Tell that to the ERG ;-)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Wot, no new range of Palace of Westminster Pies?
    I would never be so rash as to exclude an expansion of Auchentennach Fine Pies. Business is business .. :smiley:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,221

    NEW THREAD

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Money is not being "handed abroad" to the EU. It's a large, complicated agreement under which it was judged that Britain benefited, and Britain paid what was in effect a membership subscription. Shortsighted fools concluded otherwise so Britain is leaving. But the money was not simply given away. I'm sure when you buy the Beano you expect to pay for it.

    And it's very questionable indeed whether Britain should prop up an internal remittance economy. It's bad for the recipients and it's bad for those who pay for it, whether or not they are family members. Ironically, the aid that Britain sends to the developing world is usually given with exactly that principle in mind. Perhaps it should apply the same principles internally too. There is very little evidence that immigration suppresses wages as a general rule. But if it makes you feel better to hate on foreign baristas who work 200 miles from where you live, be my guest. You're going to have to do better if you think you can explain how two men loving each other is different from a man and a woman loving each other, and why those relationships should be differently recognised. Love is love.



    God he’s in Spain any idea where I’d hate to run into him in my local bar if he’s old enough to drink.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,457

    I'm against referenda in general, but given the mess we're in a new one may be the only way out.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see Prime Minister Boris deciding between a GE that he might look like losing and a new referendum where he stays as PM.
    Only a GE is possible before Oct 31st.

    @Cyclefree was right, Mr Rutte at 0810 on the Today programme was well worth a listen.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,130

    Allegedly gay? At the time, and probably still, that did not sit well with the tory world. I know he's married but those were the malicious rumours. Also rather 'foreign,' which I'm horrified to say it is manifestly obvious doesn't sit happily with some on the far right.

    I've met him a few times and he's actually a really nice man. Once he lost that SAS nonsense he seemed genuinely reformed. His magnanimous losing speech in '97 rather took the stuffing out of the gloaters. Starts at 5'36 although it's worth seeing Stephen Twigg's smile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVvWE6V9ulE

    If only Stephen Twigg had known of the momentousness of the occasion he might have borrowed a suit that fitted him
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    You're wrong
    https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

    Article 21.

    (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
    (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
    (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.


    Everyone has a right to vote in the government of their own country, not other countries. If you're not a citizen it is not your nation.

    The backstop violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. NI's government will be the EU but NI voters won't get to take part in the government as they won't be able to freely choose representatives.
    From Parliament's website:

    What does the Government do?
    The Government is responsible for deciding how the country is run and for managing things, day to day. They set taxes, choose what to spend public money on and decide how best to deliver public services, such as:

    - the National Health Service
    - the police and armed forces
    - welfare benefits like the State Pension
    - the UK’s energy supply

    Will the EU do any of this? Set taxes, decide what to spend public money on, decide how best to deliver public services such as the NHS, police, armed forces, welfare benefits such as the State Pension, and the energy supply?

    No.

    They'll be able to pass legislation on goods standards, phytosanitary food monitoring, labelling, and a handful of other Single Market issues. Comparing that to Sharia Law and loss of Government is hysteria, not analogy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,110
    Viceroy of Orange is my new favourite poster.
    It’s reassuring that the hang ‘em and flog ‘em brigade are still with us, even if they are exiled to Sitges or wherever he is posting from.
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