That astounding survey that reported that IDS is one of Conservative members’ favourite post-war leaders tells you what you need to know about the state of the current Conservative party.
Is the message of IDS not in part that anyone other than Boris is also going to really struggle to have a significant number of MPs on board and have a weak position in Parliament? What I think we will see today is more than half of all the MPs backing Boris, probably more like 2/3 in the final ballot.
What both Corbyn and IDS show is that systems which involve the membership are all very well but if you are to be a successful leader you need the broad support of MPs in Parliament. Corbyn's ever revolving shadow cabinet of little talent has meant that there has been an incredibly ineffective opposition to a minority government over the last 2 years. Too many of the Tory MPs could never take IDS seriously for obvious reasons.
Whilst the membership of either party are capable of swinging a surprise it doesn't work out.
IDS failed all by himself. His lack of support among MPs was a consequence of his lack of talent not a cause of his failure.
That's a chicken and egg though. IDS had a lack of support amongst MPs because he was useless and they knew he was. Same as Corbyn. That might not apply to a Hunt but reuniting the Tory party and keeping it united through Brexit would challenge the skills of Disraeli, let alone the present mob.
The current Conservative party is not going to reunite unless and until one group has been proved triumphantly right and the other has been wholly chastened. That could take quite a while. Much more likely, it will split further.
I don't see it quite like that. I think that the candidates (except Rory) were correct that the party faces an existential threat from the Brexit Party and the only solution is to deliver Brexit, any Brexit. Rory was more interested (in a classical Tory way now out of fashion) in the national interest rather than the party one. That view having been rejected Boris will do his best to deliver Brexit and will have an election committed to one if, as I expect, the current HoC continues its defiance. Some of what we might now call the Rory tendency will leave but I don't think the party will split.
If I was a Remainer with an ERG loon as my MP, I would vote for any party that would eject them. I'll vote for my Tory MP at the next GE because he's a good guy and not an ERG loon.
Well I am a Remainer with an ERG loon as my MP, but it will be tricky to get Suella out.
I think the Saj is the nicest and most human candidate in this contest.
It’s a shame it took him so long to warm up. Hopefully, he’ll be a serious contender in future too.
At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
I'm very sorry to hear that, and I hope you make a speedy recovery. That must have been very upsetting indeed.
A full border should have been put up when southern Ireland became a Republic and severed ties with the Commonwealth. They wanted independence, we should have given them full independence on day one. No CTA, no pegged currencies, no British defence and the same customs duties we'd impose on anybody else.
I am fed up of the kowtowing to this tiny Republic, who generally don't even like us anyway. It was only in the 1990s they officially repealed claims on our territory. Full border controls now please - let their French and German masters defend Irish airspace and waters for free.
Have you ever been to the border area? And some 40+% of the N Irish population want Union with Ireland anyway.
I don’t much care for his dabbles into politics but i am fairly glad he’s been controlling the public purse.
By handing the EU £39bn and pissing away £9bn in Foreign Aid?
Interesting definition of financial prudence.
That's the sort of angry throwaway (trolling) remark you see more on the Guido Fawkes website than here, if I may say so. It seems to me there is a massive spectrum on this site which is great, but 'pissing away' is not really a helpful way to describe our internationally agreed foreign aid response and 'handing' the EU what amounts to our obligation under previously agreed terms and conditions is also a tad intemperate?
That astounding survey that reported that IDS is one of Conservative members’ favourite post-war leaders tells you what you need to know about the state of the current Conservative party.
Not sure why you are so surprised. Osborne and Cameron stood for nothing other than GDP figures (and weren't even good at it) and IDS is at least somebody who says and votes for conservative ideas like national independence.
I have always liked IDS as have all the Tory voters I know.
I think that rather illustrates Alastair's point though. There is a massive chasm between you/tory members and the rest of the country. IDS is as far removed from where the mainstream of this country sits as you can currently conceive.
I think the Saj is the nicest and most human candidate in this contest.
It’s a shame it took him so long to warm up. Hopefully, he’ll be a serious contender in future too.
At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
Yes, Javid has grown on me too as the best of a bad lot, but will be out today almost certainly.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
Good that you're in one piece but a very unpleasant experience. Was this London?
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
Glad you are okay, (mostly) try not to let it affect your confidence going forward (easier said than done) you might be a bit more on edge for a while but that will subside. Messed up thing to happen.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attackthough it was a very scary experience.
Crikey. I'm so sorry to hear that. Hope you are as okay as possible. That's awful.
I think the Saj is the nicest and most human candidate in this contest.
It’s a shame it took him so long to warm up. Hopefully, he’ll be a serious contender in future too.
At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
Yes, Javid has grown on me too as the best of a bad lot, but will be out today almost certainly.
Saj next. Potentially formidable leader of the opposition.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
Good that you're in one piece but a very unpleasant experience. Was this London?
Today makes for interesting viewing from a realpolitik perspective. Boris is going to be the next leader barring an inverted pyramid of piffle crashing down to demolish Operation Juddering Climax. So MPs are voting for the back up option. How their votes switch around in the two ballots today will be instructive as to how much Tory MPs are as stupid as the "let's trash the Union the economy and the party" membership.
When Boris wins, the ultimate question will be stick or twist. Are you going to gamble that a full throated pledge for immediate no deal will win you the election and worry about consequences later? Or are you going to sit and wait, delay Brexit, and watch your party die slowly and horribly?
Boris wants to be written about in books other than sexy ones. He sees great figures from history. He'll twist. Boris wins the leadership, Boris goes to the country in October, Boris leaves the EU 31st October with no deal. Not sure what happens after that - it's like asking what happens after that asteroid hits the Earth.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
I am so sorry to hear that Justin. I hope you recover from your ordeal quickly and your assailant is dealt with by the full force of the law
Is the message of IDS not in part that anyone other than Boris is also going to really struggle to have a significant number of MPs on board and have a weak position in Parliament? What I think we will see today is more than half of all the MPs backing Boris, probably more like 2/3 in the final ballot.
What both Corbyn and IDS show is that systems which involve the membership are all very well but if you are to be a successful leader you need the broad support of MPs in Parliament. Corbyn's ever revolving shadow cabinet of little talent has meant that there has been an incredibly ineffective opposition to a minority government over the last 2 years. Too many of the Tory MPs could never take IDS seriously for obvious reasons.
Whilst the membership of either party are capable of swinging a surprise it doesn't work out.
IDS failed all by himself. His lack of support among MPs was a consequence of his lack of talent not a cause of his failure.
That's a chicken and egg though. IDS had a lack of support amongst MPs because he was useless and they knew he was. Same as Corbyn. That might not apply to a Hunt but reuniting the Tory party and keeping it united through Brexit would challenge the skills of Disraeli, let alone the present mob.
The current Conservative party is not going to reunite unless and until one group has been proved triumphantly right and the other has been wholly chastened. That could take quite a while. Much more likely, it will split further.
I don't see it quite like that. I think that the candidates (except Rory) were correct that the party faces an existential threat from the Brexit Party and the only solution is to deliver Brexit, any Brexit. Rory was more interested (in a classical Tory way now out of fashion) in the national interest rather than the party one. That view having been rejected Boris will do his best to deliver Brexit and will have an election committed to one if, as I expect, the current HoC continues its defiance. Some of what we might now call the Rory tendency will leave but I don't think the party will split.
Boris will either rat (call a 2nd ref) or obtain some very cosmetic changes to the existing WA, and triumphantly return hailing it as the greatest victory since Churchill.
His only hope are that the ERG are stupid enough to believe him, which I wouldn’t wholly rule out.
And he might possibly do both. He will do whatever is best for Boris the whole way through. Nothing else.
Is the message of IDS not in part that anyone other than Boris is also going to really struggle to have a significant number of MPs on board and have a weak position in Parliament? What I think we will see today is more than half of all the MPs backing Boris, probably more like 2/3 in the final ballot.
W
IDS failed all by himself. His lack of support among MPs was a consequence of his lack of talent not a cause of his failure.
That's a chicken and egg though. IDS had a lack of support amongst MPs because he was useless and they knew he was. Same as Corbyn. That might not apply to a Hunt but reuniting the Tory party and keeping it united through Brexit would challenge the skills of Disraeli, let alone the present mob.
The current Conservative party is not going to reunite unless and until one group has been proved triumphantly right and the other has been wholly chastened. That could take quite a while. Much more likely, it will split further.
I don't see it quite like that. I think that the candidates (except Rory) were correct that the party faces an existential threat from the Brexit Party and the only solution is to deliver Brexit, any Brexit. Rory was more interested (in a classical Tory way now out of fashion) in the national interest rather than the party one. That view having been rejected Boris will do his best to deliver Brexit and will have an election committed to one if, as I expect, the current HoC continues its defiance. Some of what we might now call the Rory tendency will leave but I don't think the party will split.
Boris will either rat (call a 2nd ref) or obtain some very cosmetic changes to the existing WA, and triumphantly return hailing it as the greatest victory since Churchill.
His only hope are that the ERG are stupid enough to believe him, which I wouldn’t wholly rule out.
And he might possibly do both. He will do whatever is best for Boris the whole way through. Nothing else.
As has been stated many times on here, it is not sufficient to win over the ERG. So this is completely the wrong approach. To get the WA through the House of Commons it requires what Ted Heath sussed decades ago: the support of Labour / Lib Dem moderates.
I think Rory might conceivably have achieved that. There is NO chance Boris will. He is loathed by vast swathes of the House of Commons.
Incidentally, the punters who instantly changed the price on Rory after the debate on Tuesday obviously read the runes a lot better than those of us discussing it on here.
Unfortunately for punters the results are likely to be skewed by loaned votes.
Back whoever Boris wants to face in the last 2 is my strategy. Which is Hunt.
Is the message of IDS not in part that anyone other than Boris is also going to really struggle to have a significant number of MPs on board and have a weak position in Parliament? What I think we will see today is more than half of all the MPs backing Boris, probably more like 2/3 in the final ballot.
W
IDS failed all by himself. His lack of support among MPs was a consequence of his lack of talent not a cause of his failure.
That's a chicken and egg though. IDS had a lack of support amongst MPs because he was useless and they knew he was. Same as Corbyn. That might not apply to a Hunt but reuniting the Tory party and keeping it united through Brexit would challenge the skills of Disraeli, let alone the present mob.
The current Conservative party is not going to reunite unless and until one group has been proved triumphantly right and the other has been wholly chastened. That could take quite a while. Much more likely, it will split further.
I don't see it quite like that. I think that the candidates (except Rory) were correct that the party faces an existential threat from the Brexit Party and the only solution is to deliver Brexit, any Brexit. Rory was more interested (in a classical Tory way now out of fashion) in the national interest rather than the party one. That view having been rejected Boris will do his best to deliver Brexit and will have an election committed to one if, as I expect, the current HoC continues its defiance. Some of what we might now call the Rory tendency will leave but I don't think the party will split.
Boris will either rat (call a 2nd ref) or obtain some very cosmetic changes to the existing WA, and triumphantly return hailing it as the greatest victory since Churchill.
His only hope are that the ERG are stupid enough to believe him, which I wouldn’t wholly rule out.
And he might possibly do both. He will do whatever is best for Boris the whole way through. Nothing else.
As has been stated many times on here, it is not sufficient to win over the ERG. So this is completely the wrong approach. To get the WA through the House of Commons it requires what Ted Heath sussed decades ago: the support of Labour / Lib Dem moderates.
I think Rory might conceivably have achieved that. There is NO chance Boris will. He is loathed by vast swathes of the House of Commons.
What is remarkable is that the dislike of him on his own benches has (or appears to have) reduced so dramatically. The Tories must be in a real panic.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
I'm very glad that you didn't get seriously hurt and that the Police caught them! Best wishes to you today!
That astounding survey that reported that IDS is one of Conservative members’ favourite post-war leaders tells you what you need to know about the state of the current Conservative party.
It would be interesting to work backwards and try to picture what the demographic looks like. It'll certainly look like nothing I've ever seen.
No but you are significantly less typical han most people including most Tory members - and most ordinary people anywhere.
Incidentally, the punters who instantly changed the price on Rory after the debate on Tuesday obviously read the runes a lot better than those of us discussing it on here.
Unfortunately for punters the results are likely to be skewed by loaned votes.
Back whoever Boris wants to face in the last 2 is my strategy. Which is Hunt.
Is he going to be that bothered? He should win at a canter whoever he faces.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
On appearances a much bigger issue is he’s bald. On policy, the fact he’s so liberal on migration.
That’s what would hurt him.
Boris is also liberal on migration.
Saj being bald is not a problem per se, but his head tends to glow in reflected light giving him an infantile appearance. They make cosmetics for that: see the BBC debate, for instance.
On appearances a much bigger issue is he’s bald. On policy, the fact he’s so liberal on migration.
That’s what would hurt him.
Boris is also liberal on migration.
Saj being bald is not a problem per se, but his head tends to glow in reflected light giving him an infantile appearance. They make cosmetics for that: see the BBC debate, for instance.
People don't care what Boris is. They only care about what they want Boris to be.
Exactly. The nutjobs adore the worst leader that the Conservative party has ever had, the one that took them to irrelevance in pursuit of a mad hobbyhorse.
The "nutjobs".
It is your side of the party that slashed public finances across the north while handing over money in the bucket loads to the European Union and foreign regimes. Who split the party by warping what marriage, one of the most conservative institutions, means. It is your side of the party who wanted to conduct strikes on Syria and aid Islamist maniacs - you've some nerve to call the ERG nutjobs.
I don’t much care for his dabbles into politics but i am fairly glad he’s been controlling the public purse.
By handing the EU £39bn and pissing away £9bn in Foreign Aid?
Interesting definition of financial prudence.
That's the sort of angry throwaway (trolling) remark you see more on the Guido Fawkes website than here, if I may say so. It seems to me there is a massive spectrum on this site which is great, but 'pissing away' is not really a helpful way to describe our internationally agreed foreign aid response and 'handing' the EU what amounts to our obligation under previously agreed terms and conditions is also a tad intemperate?
That astounding survey that reported that IDS is one of Conservative members’ favourite post-war leaders tells you what you need to know about the state of the current Conservative party.
Not sure why you are so surprised. Osborne and Cameron stood for nothing other than GDP figures (and weren't even good at it) and IDS is at least somebody who says and votes for conservative ideas like national independence.
I have always liked IDS as have all the Tory voters I know.
I think that rather illustrates Alastair's point though. There is a massive chasm between you/tory members and the rest of the country. IDS is as far removed from where the mainstream of this country sits as you can currently conceive.
There are not many Tory voters in Liverpool so I doubt he talks to that many, most tory leaning voters vote lib dem as some way of containing the Labour Party.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
Allegedly gay? At the time, and probably still, that did not sit well with the tory world. I know he's married but those were the malicious rumours. Also rather 'foreign,' which I'm horrified to say it is manifestly obvious doesn't sit happily with some on the far right.
I've met him a few times and he's actually a really nice man. Once he lost that SAS nonsense he seemed genuinely reformed. His magnanimous losing speech in '97 rather took the stuffing out of the gloaters. Starts at 5'36 although it's worth seeing Stephen Twigg's smile
That astounding survey that reported that IDS is one of Conservative members’ favourite post-war leaders tells you what you need to know about the state of the current Conservative party.
It would be interesting to work backwards and try to picture what the demographic looks like. It'll certainly look like nothing I've ever seen.
No but you are significantly less typical han most people including most Tory members - and most ordinary people anywhere.
I think the Saj is the nicest and most human candidate in this contest.
It’s a shame it took him so long to warm up. Hopefully, he’ll be a serious contender in future too.
At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
Yes, Javid has grown on me too as the best of a bad lot, but will be out today almost certainly.
Likely but if there is tactical voting, as seems likely there was for and then against Rory, I think the Boris surplus (plenty there including his ample waist) will aim to keep Gove out.
They may opt to prop up Javid to eliminate Gove in the fourth ballot or wait for round five and vote for their chosen opponent - Hunt.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
I don't see it quite like that. I think that the candidates (except Rory) were correct that the party faces an existential threat from the Brexit Party and the only solution is to deliver Brexit, any Brexit. Rory was more interested (in a classical Tory way now out of fashion) in the national interest rather than the party one. That view having been rejected Boris will do his best to deliver Brexit and will have an election committed to one if, as I expect, the current HoC continues its defiance. Some of what we might now call the Rory tendency will leave but I don't think the party will split.
A party committed to Brexit, any Brexit, at the cost of the national interest, is no longer the Conservative and Unionist Party.
It is the Brexit party. The MPs just have admitted it yet
I don't see it quite like that. I think that the candidates (except Rory) were correct that the party faces an existential threat from the Brexit Party and the only solution is to deliver Brexit, any Brexit. Rory was more interested (in a classical Tory way now out of fashion) in the national interest rather than the party one. That view having been rejected Boris will do his best to deliver Brexit and will have an election committed to one if, as I expect, the current HoC continues its defiance. Some of what we might now call the Rory tendency will leave but I don't think the party will split.
A party committed to Brexit, any Brexit, at the cost of the national interest, is no longer the Conservative and Unionist Party.
It is the Brexit party. The MPs just have admitted it yet
I think the Saj is the nicest and most human candidate in this contest.
It’s a shame it took him so long to warm up. Hopefully, he’ll be a serious contender in future too.
At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
Yes, Javid has grown on me too as the best of a bad lot, but will be out today almost certainly.
Saj has grown through the process. Like most skills, it is a matter of practice, and you could see in the BBC debate that Boris was a bit ring-rusty because he'd boycotted the earlier debate and hustings.
We will doubtless see the same phenomenon in the American debates and primaries: that well-known politicians with safe seats are no good at speeches and debates. If they are lucky, like Hillary Clinton, they will stay in the process long enough to improve. If not, like some of the stuffed-shirt Republicans steam-rollered by the Donald, they will go back to their states.
Exactly. The nutjobs adore the worst leader that the Conservative party has ever had, the one that took them to irrelevance in pursuit of a mad hobbyhorse.
The "nutjobs".
It is your side of the party that slashed public finances across the north while handing over money in the bucket loads to the European Union and foreign regimes. Who split the party by warping what marriage, one of the most conservative institutions, means. It is your side of the party who wanted to conduct strikes on Syria and aid Islamist maniacs - you've some nerve to call the ERG nutjobs.
Everything about your comment supports Alastair's assertion. If the term 'nut job' seems too offensive, which indeed it may, you should at least realise you are totally out of touch with the mainstream of Britain.
And what's with the Enoch Powell avatar? Doesn't that rather say everything?
I think the Saj is the nicest and most human candidate in this contest.
It’s a shame it took him so long to warm up. Hopefully, he’ll be a serious contender in future too.
At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
Yes, Javid has grown on me too as the best of a bad lot, but will be out today almost certainly.
Likely but if there is tactical voting, as seems likely there was for and then against Rory, I think the Boris surplus (plenty there including his ample waist) will aim to keep Gove out.
They may opt to prop up Javid to eliminate Gove in the fourth ballot or wait for round five and vote for their chosen opponent - Hunt.
Clearly less risky to do it in the fourth round, whilst the opposition vote is split three ways.
Exactly. The nutjobs adore the worst leader that the Conservative party has ever had, the one that took them to irrelevance in pursuit of a mad hobbyhorse.
The "nutjobs".
It is your side of the party that slashed public finances across the north while handing over money in the bucket loads to the European Union and foreign regimes. Who split the party by warping what marriage, one of the most conservative institutions, means. It is your side of the party who wanted to conduct strikes on Syria and aid Islamist maniacs - you've some nerve to call the ERG nutjobs.
We send the EU a net 9bn a year. We spend around 39bn on debt interest. What's the real drain on public finances?
That astounding survey that reported that IDS is one of Conservative members’ favourite post-war leaders tells you what you need to know about the state of the current Conservative party.
Not sure why you are so surprised. Osborne and Cameron stood for nothing other than GDP figures (and weren't even good at it) and IDS is at least somebody who says and votes for conservative ideas like national independence.
I have always liked IDS as have all the Tory voters I know.
Cameron actually led the party to power and got to actually implement some things. Even if he was not a great conservative in your eyes he was still a more effective conservative than IDS.
Yes one shouldnt be nothing but a bland technocrat in pursuit of power, but what if one thinks an ideology is best for the country then the purest person pursuing that is no good if they never came close to implementing it..
Everything about your comment supports Alastair's comment. If the term 'nut job' seems too offensive, which indeed it may, you should at least realise you are totally out of touch with the mainstream of Britain.
And what's with the Enoch Powell avatar? Doesn't that rather say everything?
You seem to confuse this website and all the London liberals who are on here as the mainstream of modern Britain. It is anything but, as the referendum demonstrated. A reminder - around 50% of the public support the death penalty, something that just the very thought of would have many of you on here clutching your pearls.
The mainstream of Britain is:
- Pro Harsh punishment (Life meaning life, Death Penalty) - Pro Nationalisation - Anti Foreign Aid - Anti EU - Anti Immigration
I mean, just look at your comment on Enoch Powell. The public were in tune with him at the time, and people will tell you even now - in hushed tones - that he had a point. He's really not as controversial as you imagine.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
Allegedly gay? At the time, and probably still, that did not sit well with the tory world. I know he's married but those were the malicious rumours. Also rather 'foreign,' which I'm horrified to say it is manifestly obvious doesn't sit happily with some on the far right.
I've met him a few times and he's actually a really nice man. Once he lost that SAS nonsense he seemed genuinely reformed. His magnanimous losing speech in '97 rather took the stuffing out of the gloaters. Starts at 5'36 although it's worth seeing Stephen Twigg's smile
I think that was put out by the Portillo camp at the time to mask the fact he was a bit of a shit.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
Glad you are okay, (mostly) try not to let it affect your confidence going forward (easier said than done) you might be a bit more on edge for a while but that will subside. Messed up thing to happen.
Horrible - many sympathies, Justin.
A woman friend was assaulted a few months ago by a guy on a moped, who wrested her bag fromt her after a struggle. She found that she did feel shaky for some months afterwards (and a problem was that work colleagues etc. assumed she was fine after the first week or so), but it did wear off and she now walks home by the same route. The police response in your case sounds impressive, at least - well done for your fast reaction.
I have been victim of attempted muggings twice. In first case I pushed attacker off and ran...in second case i turned on attacker and beat him. However I dont reccomend it.
Exactly. The nutjobs adore the worst leader that the Conservative party has ever had, the one that took them to irrelevance in pursuit of a mad hobbyhorse.
The "nutjobs".
It is your side of the party that slashed public finances across the north while handing over money in the bucket loads to the European Union and foreign regimes. Who split the party by warping what marriage, one of the most conservative institutions, means. It is your side of the party who wanted to conduct strikes on Syria and aid Islamist maniacs - you've some nerve to call the ERG nutjobs.
I'm not in the Conservative party. Why on earth would I want to be associated with those obsessed vandals who are taking the country apart piecemeal?
On what I will dignify with the description of your specific policy points:
1) "slashing public finance in the north" - the essential problem is that the north is to a great extent a remittance economy. That is a generational problem. Could austerity have been handled better? Sure. But its impact is a symptom not the cause of the north's problems. 2) "handing over money in the bucketloads to the European Union" - you speak as if the EU were a charity rather than a shared endeavour of which we were (and still remain) part of, with aspects of which that Britain benefited hugely from, as all bar the most obsessive Leavers are now appreciating. 3) "and foreign regimes" - relatively small amounts of money can make a huge difference to peoples' lives. Is it all well-spent? No. Is the basic idea a bad one? No. 4) "warping marriage" - love is love. The state should recognise that. Now that gay marriage has been provided for, it is remarkably uncontroversial. Only the dinosaurs continue to fume. 5) "conduct strikes on Syria and aid Islamist maniacs" - I opposed these.
I think the Saj is the nicest and most human candidate in this contest.
It’s a shame it took him so long to warm up. Hopefully, he’ll be a serious contender in future too.
At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
Yes, Javid has grown on me too as the best of a bad lot, but will be out today almost certainly.
Likely but if there is tactical voting, as seems likely there was for and then against Rory, I think the Boris surplus (plenty there including his ample waist) will aim to keep Gove out.
They may opt to prop up Javid to eliminate Gove in the fourth ballot or wait for round five and vote for their chosen opponent - Hunt.
Clearly less risky to do it in the fourth round, whilst the opposition vote is split three ways.
I'm not sure there's any risk. Boris is so far in front that Williamson can manipulate the numbers easily. Notable in the membership polling that Javid bombs badly too but his appearance on the members ballot would have the appearance of diversity.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
Allegedly gay? At the time, and probably still, that did not sit well with the tory world. I know he's married but those were the malicious rumours. Also rather 'foreign,' which I'm horrified to say it is manifestly obvious doesn't sit happily with some on the far right.
I've met him a few times and he's actually a really nice man. Once he lost that SAS nonsense he seemed genuinely reformed. His magnanimous losing speech in '97 rather took the stuffing out of the gloaters. Starts at 5'36 although it's worth seeing Stephen Twigg's smile
I think that was put out by the Portillo camp at the time to mask the fact he was a bit of a shit.
Everything about your comment supports Alastair's comment. If the term 'nut job' seems too offensive, which indeed it may, you should at least realise you are totally out of touch with the mainstream of Britain.
And what's with the Enoch Powell avatar? Doesn't that rather say everything?
You seem to confuse this website and all the London liberals who are on here as the mainstream of modern Britain. It is anything but, as the referendum demonstrated. A reminder - around 50% of the public support the death penalty, something that just the very thought of would have many of you on here clutching your pearls.
The mainstream of Britain is:
- Pro Harsh punishment (Life meaning life, Death Penalty) - Pro Nationalisation - Anti Foreign Aid - Anti EU
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
Sorry to hear about your dreadful experience. I hope they caught the perps. I'd imagine this is not the first time they have done such a thing.
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people don't understand the consequences of some of these policies. They might support the death penalty right until their family member gets falsely convicted and then an innocent person is murdered by the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
I'm not in the Conservative party. Why on earth would I want to be associated with those obsessed vandals who are taking the country apart piecemeal?
On what I will dignify with the description of your specific policy points:
1) "slashing public finance in the north" - the essential problem is that the north is to a great extent a remittance economy. That is a generational problem. Could austerity have been handled better? Sure. But its impact is a symptom not the cause of the north's problems. 2) "handing over money in the bucketloads to the European Union" - you speak as if the EU were a charity rather than a shared endeavour of which we were (and still remain) part of, with aspects of which that Britain benefited hugely from, as all bar the most obsessive Leavers are now appreciating. 3) "and foreign regimes" - relatively small amounts of money can make a huge difference to peoples' lives. Is it all well-spent? No. Is the basic idea a bad one? No. 4) "warping marriage" - love is love. The state should recognise that. Now that gay marriage has been provided for, it is remarkably uncontroversial. Only the dinosaurs continue to fume. 5) "conduct strikes on Syria and aid Islamist maniacs" - I opposed these.
1) Slashing spending in the north while handing money abroad is unforgivable. If your family is skint, you do not buy presents for the neighbours. The people of this country should come first, always.
2) Hugely benefitted from.. you mean business owners benefitted from by undercutting the wages of the British working classes? And leaving whole sects of the population with no experience of training as a result? Despicable. Still, at least north Londoners had someone to pour their £3.50 coffee for a pittance.
3) See 1.
4) Love is Love sounds like it is from a Miss World speech. A vapid phrase with no meaning at all.
5) Cameron and Osborne didn't. Kudos to Ed Miliband for the one useful thing he did, which is stop those two trigger happy nutjobs from aiding jihadists.
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people don't understand the consequences of some of these policies. They might support the death penalty right until their family member gets falsely convicted and then an innocent person is murdered by the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
the people dont understand all the consequences of electing their MPs
The fact is that people don't understand the consequences of some of these policies. They might support the death penalty right until their family member gets falsely convicted and then an innocent person is murdered by the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
"The problem is that people would give the wrong answer"
HA. And you say I am out of touch, you've just admitted the opposite.
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people don't understand the consequences of some of these policies. They might support the death penalty right until their family member gets falsely convicted and then an innocent person is murdered by the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
the people dont understand all the consequences of electing their MPs
should we ban elections ?
No, but we elect people who's full time job becomes to understand the consequences of these decisions.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
Sorry to hear about your dreadful experience. I hope they caught the perps. I'd imagine this is not the first time they have done such a thing.
Very, very nasty Mr 124. Best wishes; you might find yourself shaken unexpectedly for a while.
Sorry to hear @justin124 experience, it takes time to get over such experiences, and a certain amount of effort not to be too suspicious of fellow citizens.
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people don't understand the consequences of some of these policies. They might support the death penalty right until their family member gets falsely convicted and then an innocent person is murdered by the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
the people dont understand all the consequences of electing their MPs
should we ban elections ?
No, but we elect people who's full time job becomes to understand the consequences of these decisions.
and then you spend 5 years saying half of those elected are stupid and dont know what they are doing
Im afraid your just being silly with the people dont know the consequences argument in most cases people do. The bit you dont appear to accept is what might be in my best interest may be diametrically oppsed to what is in yours.
The crux of the Brexit vote is 52% of the country didnt see a system which was working in their interest and the 48% for who is was working didnt want to change. Run the numbers again in a referendum and that large dissatisfied electorate will still be there likewise the better off demographic who are afrad for their wallets.
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people don't understand the consequences of some of these policies. They might support the death penalty right until their family member gets falsely convicted and then an innocent person is murdered by the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
the people dont understand all the consequences of electing their MPs
should we ban elections ?
No, but we elect people who's full time job becomes to understand the consequences of these decisions.
and then you spend 5 years saying half of those elected are stupid and dont know what they are doing
Im afraid your just being silly with the people dont know the consequences argument in most cases people do. The bit you dont appear to accept is what might be in my best interest may be diametrically oppsed to what is in yours.
The crux of the Brexit vote is 52% of the country didnt see a system which was working in their interest and the 48% for who is was working didnt want to change. Run the numbers again in a referendum and that large dissatisfied electorate will still be there likewise the better off demographic who are afrad for their wallets.
I agree that in some cases what might be in your best interest may be opposed to what is in my best interest. However when someone thinks its in their best interest when it actually isn't, then what?
Maybe because they've been lied to and misled?
You seem to think that the only people in favour of the EU are well off...
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
I am so sorry to hear that Justin. I hope you recover from your ordeal quickly and your assailant is dealt with by the full force of the law
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
I am so sorry to hear that Justin. I hope you recover from your ordeal quickly and your assailant is dealt with by the full force of the law
All the best
+1
+1
I am happy that you are safe and healthy that is the main thing.
1) Slashing spending in the north while handing money abroad is unforgivable. If your family is skint, you do not buy presents for the neighbours. The people of this country should come first, always.
Money is not being "handed abroad" to the EU. It's a large, complicated agreement under which it was judged that Britain benefited, and Britain paid what was in effect a membership subscription. Shortsighted fools concluded otherwise so Britain is leaving. But the money was not simply given away. I'm sure when you buy the Beano you expect to pay for it.
And it's very questionable indeed whether Britain should prop up an internal remittance economy. It's bad for the recipients and it's bad for those who pay for it, whether or not they are family members. Ironically, the aid that Britain sends to the developing world is usually given with exactly that principle in mind. Perhaps it should apply the same principles internally too.
2) Hugely benefitted from.. you mean business owners benefitted from by undercutting the wages of the British working classes? And leaving whole sects of the population with no experience of training as a result? Despicable. Still, at least north Londoners had someone to pour their £3.50 coffee for a pittance.
There is very little evidence that immigration suppresses wages as a general rule. But if it makes you feel better to hate on foreign baristas who work 200 miles from where you live, be my guest.
4) Love is Love sounds like it is from a Miss World speech. A vapid phrase with no meaning at all.
You're going to have to do better if you think you can explain how two men loving each other is different from a man and a woman loving each other, and why those relationships should be differently recognised. Love is love.
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people d the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
the people dont understand all the consequences of electing their MPs
should we ban elections ?
No, but we elect people who's full time job becomes to understand the consequences of these decisions.
and then you spend 5 years saying half of those elected are stupid and dont know what they are doing
Im afraid your just bec who are afrad for their wallets.
I agree that in some cases what might be in your best interest may be opposed to what is in my best interest. However when someone thinks its in their best interest when it actually isn't, then what?
Maybe because they've been lied to and misled?
You seem to think that the only people in favour of the EU are well off...
and now youre once again off on on conjecture and what ifs
our system says those politicians you say have all the experience, do their pitch to the electorate and the people vote. The politicians are all economic with the truth and there simply isnt enough time or interest from voters to cover every issue in depth.
If the voters call it wrong then they live with the consequences and we get a chance to kick them out in five years time, Thats how it works.
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
If the voters call it wrong then they live with the consequences and we get a chance to kick them out in five years time, Thats how it works.
I don't agree that people can mislead and half-truth their way to victory in a referendum where the decision will be incredibly difficult to reverse. It's not like simply electing a different government in 5 years time.
That is not liberal democracy. Democracy relies on informed and educated decisions to work properly. Otherwise its just tyranny of the mob.
Only women on radio 4 this morning! What an improvement! No non stop interruptions by the smarmy Robinson or creepy asides by Humphrys. One of them being Katya Adler helps but presenters letting their guests be heard is quite a departure
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
pah Jack you big softie
if MPs refer the vote back to the electorate they should face a life-time ban on standing for office as they have shown themselves incapable of doing their job.
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people d the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
the people dont understand all the consequences of electing their MPs
should we ban elections ?
No, but we elect people who's full time job becomes to understand the consequences of these decisions.
and then you spend 5 years saying half of those elected are stupid and dont know what they are doing
Im afraid your just bec who are afrad for their wallets.
I agree that in some cases what might be in your best interest may be opposed to what is in my best interest. However when someone thinks its in their best interest when it actually isn't, then what?
Maybe because they've been lied to and misled?
You seem to think that the only people in favour of the EU are well off...
and now youre once again off on on conjecture and what ifs
our system says those politicians you say have all the experience, do their pitch to the electorate and the people vote. The politicians are all economic with the truth and there simply isnt enough time or interest from voters to cover every issue in depth.
If the voters call it wrong then they live with the consequences and we get a chance to kick them out in five years time, Thats how it works.
Except with referenda or so it seems. The electorate is not allowed to change its mind, according to some. Eventually it will, of course
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
I'm against referenda in general, but given the mess we're in a new one may be the only way out. I wouldn't be surprised to see Prime Minister Boris deciding between a GE that he might look like losing and a new referendum where he stays as PM.
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
Thatcher refused to endorse Portillo over IDS, she only made an official endorsement once one of them faced Clarke, for IDS
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/19/us-russia-saudi-arabia-israel-iran-forces-for-bad-poll-finds
When Boris wins, the ultimate question will be stick or twist. Are you going to gamble that a full throated pledge for immediate no deal will win you the election and worry about consequences later? Or are you going to sit and wait, delay Brexit, and watch your party die slowly and horribly?
Boris wants to be written about in books other than sexy ones. He sees great figures from history. He'll twist. Boris wins the leadership, Boris goes to the country in October, Boris leaves the EU 31st October with no deal. Not sure what happens after that - it's like asking what happens after that asteroid hits the Earth.
All the best
His only hope are that the ERG are stupid enough to believe him, which I wouldn’t wholly rule out.
And he might possibly do both. He will do whatever is best for Boris the whole way through. Nothing else.
The nation’s finances are in a much better state as a consequence, as is our economy.
I think Rory might conceivably have achieved that. There is NO chance Boris will. He is loathed by vast swathes of the House of Commons.
Indeed, he already has.
Back whoever Boris wants to face in the last 2 is my strategy. Which is Hunt.
I hope it’s some consolation that hopefully the police have now caught the bastard.
Keep your chin up and take it easy for the next few days. Try not to let this affect your confidence.
This is still an extremely rare occurrence.
Saj being bald is not a problem per se, but his head tends to glow in reflected light giving him an infantile appearance. They make cosmetics for that: see the BBC debate, for instance.
It is your side of the party that slashed public finances across the north while handing over money in the bucket loads to the European Union and foreign regimes. Who split the party by warping what marriage, one of the most conservative institutions, means. It is your side of the party who wanted to conduct strikes on Syria and aid Islamist maniacs - you've some nerve to call the ERG nutjobs.
I've met him a few times and he's actually a really nice man. Once he lost that SAS nonsense he seemed genuinely reformed. His magnanimous losing speech in '97 rather took the stuffing out of the gloaters. Starts at 5'36 although it's worth seeing Stephen Twigg's smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVvWE6V9ulE
They may opt to prop up Javid to eliminate Gove in the fourth ballot or wait for round five and vote for their chosen opponent - Hunt.
We will doubtless see the same phenomenon in the American debates and primaries: that well-known politicians with safe seats are no good at speeches and debates. If they are lucky, like Hillary Clinton, they will stay in the process long enough to improve. If not, like some of the stuffed-shirt Republicans steam-rollered by the Donald, they will go back to their states.
And what's with the Enoch Powell avatar? Doesn't that rather say everything?
Boris's solution? Cut taxes...
Yes one shouldnt be nothing but a bland technocrat in pursuit of power, but what if one thinks an ideology is best for the country then the purest person pursuing that is no good if they never came close to implementing it..
The mainstream of Britain is:
- Pro Harsh punishment (Life meaning life, Death Penalty)
- Pro Nationalisation
- Anti Foreign Aid
- Anti EU
- Anti Immigration
I mean, just look at your comment on Enoch Powell. The public were in tune with him at the time, and people will tell you even now - in hushed tones - that he had a point. He's really not as controversial as you imagine.
A woman friend was assaulted a few months ago by a guy on a moped, who wrested her bag fromt her after a struggle. She found that she did feel shaky for some months afterwards (and a problem was that work colleagues etc. assumed she was fine after the first week or so), but it did wear off and she now walks home by the same route. The police response in your case sounds impressive, at least - well done for your fast reaction.
On what I will dignify with the description of your specific policy points:
1) "slashing public finance in the north" - the essential problem is that the north is to a great extent a remittance economy. That is a generational problem. Could austerity have been handled better? Sure. But its impact is a symptom not the cause of the north's problems.
2) "handing over money in the bucketloads to the European Union" - you speak as if the EU were a charity rather than a shared endeavour of which we were (and still remain) part of, with aspects of which that Britain benefited hugely from, as all bar the most obsessive Leavers are now appreciating.
3) "and foreign regimes" - relatively small amounts of money can make a huge difference to peoples' lives. Is it all well-spent? No. Is the basic idea a bad one? No.
4) "warping marriage" - love is love. The state should recognise that. Now that gay marriage has been provided for, it is remarkably uncontroversial. Only the dinosaurs continue to fume.
5) "conduct strikes on Syria and aid Islamist maniacs" - I opposed these.
Boris supports foreign aid: Foreign aid to be shifted to support UK policy, Johnson says
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
Cheer yourself up and read some of the PB archive !! ....
2) Hugely benefitted from.. you mean business owners benefitted from by undercutting the wages of the British working classes? And leaving whole sects of the population with no experience of training as a result? Despicable. Still, at least north Londoners had someone to pour their £3.50 coffee for a pittance.
3) See 1.
4) Love is Love sounds like it is from a Miss World speech. A vapid phrase with no meaning at all.
5) Cameron and Osborne didn't. Kudos to Ed Miliband for the one useful thing he did, which is stop those two trigger happy nutjobs from aiding jihadists.
should we ban elections ?
HA. And you say I am out of touch, you've just admitted the opposite.
Why don't you come to Northern Pride in Newcastle on 19th - 21st July and tell me that 'The North' does not think that love is love?
Sorry to hear @justin124 experience, it takes time to get over such experiences, and a certain amount of effort not to be too suspicious of fellow citizens.
Im afraid your just being silly with the people dont know the consequences argument in most cases people do. The bit you dont appear to accept is what might be in my best interest may be diametrically oppsed to what is in yours.
The crux of the Brexit vote is 52% of the country didnt see a system which was working in their interest and the 48% for who is was working didnt want to change. Run the numbers again in a referendum and that large dissatisfied electorate will still be there likewise the better off demographic who are afrad for their wallets.
Maybe because they've been lied to and misled?
You seem to think that the only people in favour of the EU are well off...
In public. No doubt he will have discussed options with his supporters.
I am happy that you are safe and healthy that is the main thing.
I expect his support will splinter.
And somebody said you didn't have "issues" ...
And it's very questionable indeed whether Britain should prop up an internal remittance economy. It's bad for the recipients and it's bad for those who pay for it, whether or not they are family members. Ironically, the aid that Britain sends to the developing world is usually given with exactly that principle in mind. Perhaps it should apply the same principles internally too. There is very little evidence that immigration suppresses wages as a general rule. But if it makes you feel better to hate on foreign baristas who work 200 miles from where you live, be my guest. You're going to have to do better if you think you can explain how two men loving each other is different from a man and a woman loving each other, and why those relationships should be differently recognised. Love is love.
Best keep this for posterity.
our system says those politicians you say have all the experience, do their pitch to the electorate and the people vote. The politicians are all economic with the truth and there simply isnt enough time or interest from voters to cover every issue in depth.
If the voters call it wrong then they live with the consequences and we get a chance to kick them out in five years time, Thats how it works.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
That is not liberal democracy. Democracy relies on informed and educated decisions to work properly. Otherwise its just tyranny of the mob.
if MPs refer the vote back to the electorate they should face a life-time ban on standing for office as they have shown themselves incapable of doing their job.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Prime Minister Boris deciding between a GE that he might look like losing and a new referendum where he stays as PM.