I think the Saj is the nicest and most human candidate in this contest.
It’s a shame it took him so long to warm up. Hopefully, he’ll be a serious contender in future too.
At the start of the contest I had fairly similar views of Hunt and Javid as high-achieving empty suits, but now I see Javid much more favourably than Hunt whose sense of entitlement seems almost hysterical.
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
If the voters call it wrong then they live with the consequences and we get a chance to kick them out in five years time, Thats how it works.
I don't agree that people can mislead and half-truth their way to victory in a referendum where the decision will be incredibly difficult to reverse. It's not like simply electing a different government in 5 years time.
That is not liberal democracy. Democracy relies on informed and educated decisions to work properly. Otherwise its just tyranny of the mob.
Precisely. There are many historical examples of decisions taken by referendums which proved ultimately disastrous. France 1850s, Germany 1930s for instance.
I don’t much care for his dabbles into politics but i am fairly glad he’s been controlling the public purse.
By handing the EU £39bn and pissing away £9bn in Foreign Aid?
Interesting definition of financial prudence.
Ok, I’m going to bite.
£15bn roughly is settlement of debts and liabilities. Do you believe the U.K. should welsh on its debts?
£25bn roughly is two years net payments during the transition period. That is a policy decision by the government but it’s not “handing” money to the EU. We are getting something in return
On Foreign Aid, as things stand, we have a legal obligation to spend 0.7% of GDP. Do you think the Chancellor should break the law?
I am sorry to report that last night - shortly before 9.30 - I was the victim of attempted robbery via a knife attack. I was returning home from a church meeting when I became aware of being followed on the pavement by a young guy riding a bike. My intuition kicked in - perhaps on account of his riding so slowly behind me with no desire to overtake - and I crossed the road when less than 3 minutes from home. I became seriously alarmed when he followed me , and eventually drew level with me. He then asked me for money, drew a knife and threatened to stab me. Shock and panic set in, I shouted at him and ran. He continued to pusue me - and in trying to escape I stumbled, fell to the ground and grazed my hands and left knee.I managed to recover and found refuge in the home of a neighbour whose front door I was fortunately able to open. My assailant had followed me into the front garden of my neighbour's property - but made no attempt to enter. My neighbour called the Police , and over the next two hours I provided a full statement. There was then intense Police activity in the area with as many as ten vehicles appearing. The good news is that there are indications that this guy has been apprehended - together with a possible accomplice.In the end , I have been very fortunate - though it was a very scary experience.
Sorry to hear that Justin and hope they catch the mugger.
I had a friend who was mugged by a group a few months ago at knife point, we must crack down hard on knife crime
If the voters call it wrong then they live with the consequences and we get a chance to kick them out in five years time, Thats how it works.
I don't agree that people can mislead and half-truth their way to victory in a referendum where the decision will be incredibly difficult to reverse. It's not like simply electing a different government in 5 years time.
That is not liberal democracy. Democracy relies on informed and educated decisions to work properly. Otherwise its just tyranny of the mob.
You might not agree with it but thats how it is, and you still appear not to notice that one mans truth is another mans lies. People judge situations by their own circumstances and values. In a referendum they vote on what they think is in their own interests.
I can quite happily accept than many remainers voted for what they thought was best for them, as indeed they should. I struggle however to see why remainers cant accept that leavers will have done the same.
That astounding survey that reported that IDS is one of Conservative members’ favourite post-war leaders tells you what you need to know about the state of the current Conservative party.
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people d the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
the people dont understand all the consequences of electing their MPs
should we ban elections ?
No, but we elect people who's full time job becomes to understand the consequences of these decisions.
and then you spend 5 years saying half of those elected are stupid and dont know what they are doing
Im afraid your just bec who are afrad for their wallets.
I agree that in some cases what might be in your best interest may be opposed to what is in my best interest. However when someone thinks its in their best interest when it actually isn't, then what?
Maybe because they've been lied to and misled?
You seem to think that the only people in favour of the EU are well off...
and now youre once again off on on conjecture and what ifs
our system says those politicians you say have all the experience, do their pitch to the electorate and the people vote. The politicians are all economic with the truth and there simply isnt enough time or interest from voters to cover every issue in depth.
If the voters call it wrong then they live with the consequences and we get a chance to kick them out in five years time, Thats how it works.
Except with referenda or so it seems. The electorate is not allowed to change its mind, according to some. Eventually it will, of course
Its very simple. You implement the decision. If you want to subsequently change that then you campaign, put a vote to the electorate and take your chances. Thats how our system works.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
Thatcher refused to endorse Portillo over IDS, she only made an official endorsement once one of them faced Clarke, for IDS
I was referring to her endorsement of him early in his career. But clearly her enthusiasm cooled. Nevertheless, to lose out to the Quiet Man...
I don’t much care for his dabbles into politics but i am fairly glad he’s been controlling the public purse.
By handing the EU £39bn and pissing away £9bn in Foreign Aid?
Interesting definition of financial prudence.
That's the sort of angry throwaway (trolling) remark you see more on the Guido Fawkes website than here, if I may say so. It seems to me there is a massive spectrum on this site which is great, but 'pissing away' is not really a helpful way to describe our internationally agreed foreign aid response and 'handing' the EU what amounts to our obligation under previously agreed terms and conditions is also a tad intemperate?
That astounding survey that reported that IDS is one of Conservative members’ favourite post-war leaders tells you what you need to know about the state of the current Conservative party.
Not sure why you are so surprised. Osborne and Cameron stood for nothing other than GDP figures (and weren't even good at it) and IDS is at least somebody who says and votes for conservative ideas like national independence.
I have always liked IDS as have all the Tory voters I know.
I think that rather illustrates Alastair's point though. There is a massive chasm between you/tory members and the rest of the country. IDS is as far removed from where the mainstream of this country sits as you can currently conceive.
Frankly I think the survey is garbage.
I’m pretty politically aware but all I really remember about IDS is his work on welfare reform. There have certainly been errors in execution and George Osborne undermines the whole thing (hence IDS resigning), but the philosophy behind universal credit is good and well thought through.
I suspect that many of the respondents are thinking of that rather than his time as leader 15 years ago
And we all know that Britain is split down the middle on the EU.
As usual, you are talking utter bollocks.
How's Spain treating you today?
Would you like a referendum on the death penalty? Let's test it.
Boris is a social liberal.
Britain voted 52% to Leave.
The fact is that people don't understand the consequences of some of these policies. They might support the death penalty right until their family member gets falsely convicted and then an innocent person is murdered by the state.
They don't understand that the purpose of foreign aid is to save money in the long run by trying to stabilise the world.
And clearly, as demonstrated by you, they don't understand our relationship with the EU in the slightest.
the people dont understand all the consequences of electing their MPs
should we ban elections ?
No, but we elect people who's full time job becomes to understand the consequences of these decisions.
and then you spend 5 years saying half of those elected are stupid and dont know what they are doing
Im afraid your just being silly with the people dont know the consequences argument in most cases people do. The bit you dont appear to accept is what might be in my best interest may be diametrically oppsed to what is in yours.
The crux of the Brexit vote is 52% of the country didnt see a system which was working in their interest and the 48% for who is was working didnt want to change. Run the numbers again in a referendum and that large dissatisfied electorate will still be there likewise the better off demographic who are afrad for their wallets.
I agree that in some cases what might be in your best interest may be opposed to what is in my best interest. However when someone thinks its in their best interest when it actually isn't, then what?
Maybe because they've been lied to and misled?
You seem to think that the only people in favour of the EU are well off...
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
I'm against referenda in general, but given the mess we're in a new one may be the only way out. I wouldn't be surprised to see Prime Minister Boris deciding between a GE that he might look like losing and a new referendum where he stays as PM.
No no and no again !! .... JackW is not for turning.
No more Sir. Enough already. Get the bloody job done. No best of three. No diversion or evasion. Get a bloody grip and get the job done !!
I don’t much care for his dabbles into politics but i am fairly glad he’s been controlling the public purse.
By handing the EU £39bn and pissing away £9bn in Foreign Aid?
Interesting definition of financial prudence.
Ok, I’m going to bite.
£15bn roughly is settlement of debts and liabilities. Do you believe the U.K. should welsh on its debts?
£25bn roughly is two years net payments during the transition period. That is a policy decision by the government but it’s not “handing” money to the EU. We are getting something in return
On Foreign Aid, as things stand, we have a legal obligation to spend 0.7% of GDP. Do you think the Chancellor should break the law?
I think the Foreign Aid law should be repealed and our kids given free Uni places with the freed up cash.
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
I'm against referenda in general, but given the mess we're in a new one may be the only way out. I wouldn't be surprised to see Prime Minister Boris deciding between a GE that he might look like losing and a new referendum where he stays as PM.
No no and no again !! .... JackW is not for turning.
No more Sir. Enough already. Get the bloody job done. No best of three. No diversion or evasion. Get a bloody grip and get the job done !!
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
Wot, no new range of Palace of Westminster Pies?
I would never be so rash as to exclude an expansion of Auchentennach Fine Pies. Business is business ..
1) Slashing spending in the north while handing money abroad is unforgivable. If your family is skint, you do not buy presents for the neighbours. The people of this country should come first, always.
Money is not being "handed abroad" to the EU. It's a large, complicated agreement under which it was judged that Britain benefited, and Britain paid what was in effect a membership subscription. Shortsighted fools concluded otherwise so Britain is leaving. But the money was not simply given away. I'm sure when you buy the Beano you expect to pay for it.
And it's very questionable indeed whether Britain should prop up an internal remittance economy. It's bad for the recipients and it's bad for those who pay for it, whether or not they are family members. Ironically, the aid that Britain sends to the developing world is usually given with exactly that principle in mind. Perhaps it should apply the same principles internally too.
2) Hugely benefitted from.. you mean business owners benefitted from by undercutting the wages of the British working classes? And leaving whole sects of the population with no experience of training as a result? Despicable. Still, at least north Londoners had someone to pour their £3.50 coffee for a pittance.
There is very little evidence that immigration suppresses wages as a general rule. But if it makes you feel better to hate on foreign baristas who work 200 miles from where you live, be my guest.
4) Love is Love sounds like it is from a Miss World speech. A vapid phrase with no meaning at all.
You're going to have to do better if you think you can explain how two men loving each other is different from a man and a woman loving each other, and why those relationships should be differently recognised. Love is love.
God he’s in Spain any idea where I’d hate to run into him in my local bar if he’s old enough to drink.
Jo Swinson on Sky News dressed in yellow shocker ... No bar chart earrings though.
I quite like JS. You get the impression that she wouldn't go out of her way to fuck up the country which is no longer a given for the British political class.
I'm pretty neutral about Jo Swinson. She was a well regarded minister in the Coalition but there's a strident edge to her that sometime grates and deflects from what she's actually saying.
However Swinson gets a minus point, as do most LibDems, for the second vote nonsense. Save for nation building, as in the Scottish referendum, I firmly oppose referendum as a tool of government. If parliament cannot decide on important matters of the moment what are they doing there? I'd slash their salary by half for referring issues back.
I'm against referenda in general, but given the mess we're in a new one may be the only way out. I wouldn't be surprised to see Prime Minister Boris deciding between a GE that he might look like losing and a new referendum where he stays as PM.
Only a GE is possible before Oct 31st.
@Cyclefree was right, Mr Rutte at 0810 on the Today programme was well worth a listen.
Why did Portillo not storm it? He seems to have had all the right credentials - eurosceptic, Maggie’s endorsement. IDS at the time seemed to have very little to offer.
Allegedly gay? At the time, and probably still, that did not sit well with the tory world. I know he's married but those were the malicious rumours. Also rather 'foreign,' which I'm horrified to say it is manifestly obvious doesn't sit happily with some on the far right.
I've met him a few times and he's actually a really nice man. Once he lost that SAS nonsense he seemed genuinely reformed. His magnanimous losing speech in '97 rather took the stuffing out of the gloaters. Starts at 5'36 although it's worth seeing Stephen Twigg's smile
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives. (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country. (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Everyone has a right to vote in the government of their own country, not other countries. If you're not a citizen it is not your nation.
The backstop violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. NI's government will be the EU but NI voters won't get to take part in the government as they won't be able to freely choose representatives.
From Parliament's website:
What does the Government do? The Government is responsible for deciding how the country is run and for managing things, day to day. They set taxes, choose what to spend public money on and decide how best to deliver public services, such as:
- the National Health Service - the police and armed forces - welfare benefits like the State Pension - the UK’s energy supply
Will the EU do any of this? Set taxes, decide what to spend public money on, decide how best to deliver public services such as the NHS, police, armed forces, welfare benefits such as the State Pension, and the energy supply?
No.
They'll be able to pass legislation on goods standards, phytosanitary food monitoring, labelling, and a handful of other Single Market issues. Comparing that to Sharia Law and loss of Government is hysteria, not analogy.
Viceroy of Orange is my new favourite poster. It’s reassuring that the hang ‘em and flog ‘em brigade are still with us, even if they are exiled to Sitges or wherever he is posting from.
Comments
Javid next out I think.
£15bn roughly is settlement of debts and liabilities. Do you believe the U.K. should welsh on its debts?
£25bn roughly is two years net payments during the transition period. That is a policy decision by the government but it’s not “handing” money to the EU. We are getting something in return
On Foreign Aid, as things stand, we have a legal obligation to spend 0.7% of GDP. Do you think the Chancellor should break the law?
I had a friend who was mugged by a group a few months ago at knife point, we must crack down hard on knife crime
I can quite happily accept than many remainers voted for what they thought was best for them, as indeed they should. I struggle however to see why remainers cant accept that leavers will have done the same.
No peeking Chas ....
I’m pretty politically aware but all I really remember about IDS is his work on welfare reform. There have certainly been errors in execution and George Osborne undermines the whole thing (hence IDS resigning), but the philosophy behind universal credit is good and well thought through.
I suspect that many of the respondents are thinking of that rather than his time as leader 15 years ago
No more Sir. Enough already. Get the bloody job done. No best of three. No diversion or evasion. Get a bloody grip and get the job done !!
NEW THREAD
@Cyclefree was right, Mr Rutte at 0810 on the Today programme was well worth a listen.
What does the Government do?
The Government is responsible for deciding how the country is run and for managing things, day to day. They set taxes, choose what to spend public money on and decide how best to deliver public services, such as:
- the National Health Service
- the police and armed forces
- welfare benefits like the State Pension
- the UK’s energy supply
Will the EU do any of this? Set taxes, decide what to spend public money on, decide how best to deliver public services such as the NHS, police, armed forces, welfare benefits such as the State Pension, and the energy supply?
No.
They'll be able to pass legislation on goods standards, phytosanitary food monitoring, labelling, and a handful of other Single Market issues. Comparing that to Sharia Law and loss of Government is hysteria, not analogy.
It’s reassuring that the hang ‘em and flog ‘em brigade are still with us, even if they are exiled to Sitges or wherever he is posting from.