HYUFD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Chuka Umunna has been appointed Treasury and business spokesman for the Liberal Democrats just days after the former Labour and Change UK MP joined the party.

A good platform for a future leadership bid

Do not trust [recent] past enemies who bring you gifts.

Is the Sunday Times poll a YouGov one?

nico67 said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1139998710442745856?s=21

Hilarious , the surge has 24 saying he can unite the country versus 48 who said he couldn’t !

And the Westminster poll has an alleged surge to 21 still 3 points behind the BP.

The right wing press desperation to help Bozo is vomit inducing .

Who conducted the poll

AndyJS said:

Forsa:

Greens 27%
Union 24%
AfD 13%
SPD 11%
FDP 9%
Left 8%
Others 8%

https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

The future is Green. Even I voted Green in the Euro19.

AndyJS said:

Forsa:

Greens 27%
Union 24%
AfD 13%
SPD 11%
FDP 9%
Left 8%
Others 8%

https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

CDU+AfD+FDP tied with Greens+SPD+Linke on 46% each on that poll.


Greens plus Union though gets to 51%, Union plus SPD only gets to 35%

nunuone said:

Things we know:

Boris will be the first to betray Brexit.

Farage could have a field day with Bozo . Not sure the Tories really have thought this through . And Farage wants to stay relevant , he doesn’t want Brexit delivered but wants the BP to be a force longer term .

You can’t out Brexit the BP. His message will be you can’t trust Bozo.

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Chris said:

What exactly are your "moral/religious objections to homosexual behaviour"?

- Religious
- Natural
- Health

Religious, I grant you. Anything can find itself objected to on religious grounds. Not sure what you mean by natural, homosexual behaviour is long observed in nature, and as for health, well, I find it hard to imagine homosexual intercourse is that much more hazadous than heterosexual intercourse!

Edit: Ah, I see your edits. Well, it's good to know what others think on the topic, without obfuscation, but that's about all I can say on that.

JackW said:

AndyJS said:

Is the Sunday Times poll a YouGov one?

Certainly not a YouGove one ....

Goodnight PBers ....

YouGove if you want to?...

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Many things are observed in nature, but it does not make them right. And look the statistics for HIV transmissions - in London it is something like 1 in 7 gay men have HIV, and those are the ones we know about. If that were repeated in heterosexuals, it would be classed as an epidemic.

That's an argument, if anything, in favour of gay marriage. As the Book of Common Prayer (a conservative document if ever there was one!) puts it:

[Marriage] was ordained for a remedy against sin, and to avoid fornication; that such persons as have not the gift of continency might marry, and keep themselves undefiled members of Christ's body.

IanB2 said:

Byronic said:

Foxy said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1139967706424369152?s=19

London’s homicide count is sharply down this year so far. Judge for yourself the biggest racist.

Do you have a source for that claim?

135 homicides 2018

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8104412/london-stabbings-2019-knife-crime-statistics/

58 2019

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8273147/london-murder-rate-2019/

with 14 hot summer nights to go till mid year. Looks pretty level pegging.

The weather different down there?

No. It is hideous. The worst start to any summer that I can remember.

2012 was worse

Yes, the summer of the drowned rat Thames flotilla and lasted until the olympics.

nico67 said:

dr_spyn said:

First of the stop Boris stories from the Sundays?

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1139996442079191040

Bozo also said it was a waste of tax payers money to investigate historical child abuse . He called it spaffing money up the wall ! I’m sure the survivors of abuse are touched by his empathy !

Far better to spaff it up the wall on non-existent bridges and sweetheart tenancies for stadiums to the benefit of his mates.

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1139967706424369152?s=19

London’s homicide count is sharply down this year so far. Judge for yourself the biggest racist.

Do you have a source for that claim?

The last two sentences of this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48646922

Written in a way which makes it impossible to compare between the years. There have been 56 murders so far this year, but had been 77 homicides this time last year.

Unless we know how many non-murder homicides there have been this year, we can't draw any conclusions.

TGOHF said:

Telegraph says Corbyn wants a lifetime gifts tax to tax all gifts from parents to children - to replace inheritance tax.

Sounds like a real vote winner.

Given so many children only get on the housing ladder now with a lifetime gift from their parents for a deposit not sure that will go down too well

FrancisUrquhart said:

TGOHF said:

Telegraph says Corbyn wants a lifetime gifts tax to tax all gifts from parents to children - to replace inheritance tax.

Sounds like a real vote winner.

Just the start if jezza gets in.

Will make hard brexit seem like a golden age

nico67 said:

nunuone said:

Things we know:

Boris will be the first to betray Brexit.

Farage could have a field day with Bozo . Not sure the Tories really have thought this through . And Farage wants to stay relevant , he doesn’t want Brexit delivered but wants the BP to be a force longer term .

You can’t out Brexit the BP. His message will be you can’t trust Bozo.

On tonight's YouGov the only question is whether it will be Farage or Boris PM, the Brexit Party and Tories and DUP are more combined than Labour and the SNP and LDs and Plaid and Greens combined

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

What does the Church have to do with it?

It was legalised civilly. It wasn't legalised for Churches, unless the Church chooses by its own choice to do it - which is surely the Churches own right?

Why repeal it? What does taking civil rights away from anyone achieve?

I don't view gay 'marriage' as a civil right.

Why not? Since this is a civil law not a religious one, the Churches make religious decisions, give me one civil reason why gay people should be denied marriage.

Because I don't view gay 'marriage' as being equal to actual, real marriage. I don't view it as legitimate which is why I wouldn't attend one. It's as simple as that.

Sorry "I don't view" is not a civil reason to deny equality before the law.

If I write "I don't view interracial 'marriage' as being ..." would that be a valid reason to deny people equality before the law? No.

The Churches can deny it if they want but give a civil reason to deny it in law.

Homosexual behaviour is very different to the pigmentation of someone's skin, and it is a controversial behaviour in terms of morality and religion.

Bit of a silly comparison to make. But I can see why you would think that if you personally don't have moral/religious objections to homosexual behaviour.

Assume this new account is a spoof?

justin124 said:

It is a Yougov poll. Some signs of the major parties recovering with Brexit Party down to 24% and the LibDems in 4th place - latter is first time since EU election. Yougov also has tended to overstate Brexit Party.

Thanks for answering my question.

HYUFD said:

Byronic said:

Foxy said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1139967706424369152?s=19

London’s homicide count is sharply down this year so far. Judge for yourself the biggest racist.

Do you have a source for that claim?

135 homicides 2018

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8104412/london-stabbings-2019-knife-crime-statistics/

58 2019

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8273147/london-murder-rate-2019/

with 14 hot summer nights to go till mid year. Looks pretty level pegging.

The weather different down there?

No. It is hideous. The worst start to any summer that I can remember.

May was quite hot, tonight I have the heating on

I presume you mean the month?

justin124 said:

It is a Yougov poll. Some signs of the major parties recovering with Brexit Party down to 24% and the LibDems in 4th place - latter is first time since EU election. Yougov also has tended to overstate Brexit Party.

Labour would hold Peterborough on the YouGov poll despite nationally it being a Brexit Party plus Tories plus DUP government so even with the by election result YouGov may be right

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

nunuone said:

Things we know:

Boris will be the first to betray Brexit.

Farage could have a field day with Bozo . Not sure the Tories really have thought this through . And Farage wants to stay relevant , he doesn’t want Brexit delivered but wants the BP to be a force longer term .

You can’t out Brexit the BP. His message will be you can’t trust Bozo.

On tonight's YouGov the only question is whether it will be Farage or Boris PM, the Brexit Party and Tories and DUP are more combined than Labour and the SNP and LDs and Plaid and Greens combined

The polling with four parties close together can’t tell you how the seats would end up because you’re likely to see large variations between different seats . Any GE will also have different issues thrown into the mix .

The BP will do much better in the Midlands than say London or Scotland . Say the Tories and BP do a pact If they don’t stand in certain seats to help the Tories the problem there is you won’t have Labour Leavers voting Tory. Are the Tories willing to stand aside in high Leave areas for the BP I can’t see that .

Byronic said:

TGOHF said:

Boris using fruity language isn’t quite the black swan required to derail his campaign in my humble opinion.

Yes. The Mirror story shows a rather touching, naive faith in the continued prudishness of the British people, even though the word "fuck" is now common parlance on our TV screens, and we all watch pornhub on our phones. When we are not sexting.

The issue is more who he allegedly said it about - families of victims of terorrists. It'd be odd if true (why would anyone feel that?), but would be damaging. I see the Mirror includes someone else denying it.

1 Where is this poll people are citing? Have scrolled back, and can't see it, maybe I missed it? Can someone reprint it please?
2 The views of the Viceroy and Justin are far more common in the population than are represented on PB. I disagree with them, but they do represent a large swathe of thinking in this country. The more diversity of views on this site the better, I say.
3 However, my religion makes no mention of homosexuality in any of its texts. Get rather cross when we are lumped in with the rest. Advocacy for LGBT rights is not a clear religious/non-religious divide.

StuartDickson said:

_Anazina_ said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

What does the Church have to do with it?

It was legalised civilly. It wasn't legalised for Churches, unless the Church chooses by its own choice to do it - which is surely the Churches own right?

Why repeal it? What does taking civil rights away from anyone achieve?

I don't view gay 'marriage' as a civil right.

Why not? Since this is a civil law not a religious one, the Churches make religious decisions, give me one civil reason why gay people should be denied marriage.

Because I don't view gay 'marriage' as being equal to actual, real marriage. I don't view it as legitimate which is why I wouldn't attend one. It's as simple as that.

Sorry "I don't view" is not a civil reason to deny equality before the law.

If I write "I don't view interracial 'marriage' as being ..." would that be a valid reason to deny people equality before the law? No.

The Churches can deny it if they want but give a civil reason to deny it in law.

Homosexual behaviour is very different to the pigmentation of someone's skin, and it is a controversial behaviour in terms of morality and religion.

Bit of a silly comparison to make. But I can see why you would think that if you personally don't have moral/religious objections to homosexual behaviour.

Assume this new account is a spoof?

Must be.

It probably isn't a spoof.

Byronic said:

TGOHF said:

Telegraph says Corbyn wants a lifetime gifts tax to tax all gifts from parents to children - to replace inheritance tax.

Sounds like a real vote winner.

I have concluded (quite seriously) that Corbyn has almost zero interest in winning an election. Then he might have to enact his policies, and see them fail, miserably. Sure, if the job fell in to his lap he'd do it, with definite curiosity, but he won't go out of his way to enable this.

Instead, he has two very different interests: 1, his own moral purity, and the consequent and agreeable virtue signalling to his followers, and 2, saying a Boris-like Fuck You to the Blairites, who he hates with a true vengeance (whereas he merely dislikes Tories)

I don't actually think he hates anyone - certainly he's privately polite about Tony, and contrasts him favourably with e.g. Renzi, who pitched similarly to Tony in Italy but seems to Corbyn to have less substance. I know people (including some "moderates") who do hate political opponents, and I try to steer clear of them.

But a tax on lifetime donations does seem fairer (though harder to implement, surely?) than a one-off tax at the moment of death.

brendan16 said:

HYUFD said:

Byronic said:

Foxy said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1139967706424369152?s=19

London’s homicide count is sharply down this year so far. Judge for yourself the biggest racist.

Do you have a source for that claim?

135 homicides 2018

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8104412/london-stabbings-2019-knife-crime-statistics/

58 2019

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8273147/london-murder-rate-2019/

with 14 hot summer nights to go till mid year. Looks pretty level pegging.

The weather different down there?

No. It is hideous. The worst start to any summer that I can remember.

May was quite hot, tonight I have the heating on

I presume you mean the month?

Yes, Philip need not worry

Richard_Nabavi said:

It's not often that I quote Tim Montgomerie, let alone quote him because I approve of what he writes, but this article back in 2012 made a huge impression on me, to the extent of completely changing my view. Not many articles do that.

It is because I value marriage so much that I have come to believe it should be extended to gay people and not kept exclusive. Because it is so beneficial an institution it should be enlarged rather than fossilised. Whereas some people see the gay marriage issue as primarily about equal rights, I see it as about social solidarity and stability. Marriage is, for want of a better word, conservatising. I don't mean in a party political sense. I mean it is one of the key social institutions that conservatives admire. It is about drawing people together. Not just the couple but also their extended family and other friends and loved ones. It is a deeply important social act that draws others to the care of the couple and draws the couple to the care of others, not least ageing parents. As Mary Ann Sieghart has written, reflecting on her own experience, most people take a different approach to marriage than to cohabitation. The preparation for marriage, its legal structure, the involvement of others in its ceremonies and celebrations, these things add up to mean that that those within marriage generally behave differently from those who haven't entered such a commitment.

http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2012/02/a-conservative-case-for-gay-marriage.html

I too used to think that Gay marriage was unnecessary in the era of civil partnership. I was wrong, and having seen how happy getting married has made some gay friends am a supporter. It is an important part of equality.

Viceroy clearly has some issues about his own sexuality. I hope he resolves them before it is too late.

nico67 said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

nunuone said:

Things we know:

Boris will be the first to betray Brexit.

Farage could have a field day with Bozo . Not sure the Tories really have thought this through . And Farage wants to stay relevant , he doesn’t want Brexit delivered but wants the BP to be a force longer term .

You can’t out Brexit the BP. His message will be you can’t trust Bozo.

On tonight's YouGov the only question is whether it will be Farage or Boris PM, the Brexit Party and Tories and DUP are more combined than Labour and the SNP and LDs and Plaid and Greens combined

The polling with four parties close together can’t tell you how the seats would end up because you’re likely to see large variations between different seats . Any GE will also have different issues thrown into the mix .

The BP will do much better in the Midlands than say London or Scotland . Say the Tories and BP do a pact If they don’t stand in certain seats to help the Tories the problem there is you won’t have Labour Leavers voting Tory. Are the Tories willing to stand aside in high Leave areas for the BP I can’t see that .

There won't be a pact no, the figures electoral calculus gives producing a BP + Tories + DUP majority are with BP and Tory candidates in every seat, the BP for instance would gain Yvette Cooper's seat electoral calculus predicts even if most of their gains come from the Tories

nico67 said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

nunuone said:

Things we know:

Boris will be the first to betray Brexit.

Farage could have a field day with Bozo . Not sure the Tories really have thought this through . And Farage wants to stay relevant , he doesn’t want Brexit delivered but wants the BP to be a force longer term .

You can’t out Brexit the BP. His message will be you can’t trust Bozo.

On tonight's YouGov the only question is whether it will be Farage or Boris PM, the Brexit Party and Tories and DUP are more combined than Labour and the SNP and LDs and Plaid and Greens combined

The polling with four parties close together can’t tell you how the seats would end up because you’re likely to see large variations between different seats . Any GE will also have different issues thrown into the mix .

The BP will do much better in the Midlands than say London or Scotland . Say the Tories and BP do a pact If they don’t stand in certain seats to help the Tories the problem there is you won’t have Labour Leavers voting Tory. Are the Tories willing to stand aside in high Leave areas for the BP I can’t see that .

Mmm. You won't have many Tory Remainers voted for Farage's mob either.
A TBP Tory pact is theoretically a winner. However, my home town of Wigan will vote TBP in a Euro election quite happily. I remain to be convinced it would elect TBP MPs standing on an open platform of enabling a Tory government.

_Anazina_ said:

TudorRose said:

_Anazina_ said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

What does the Church have to do with it?

It was legalised civilly. It wasn't legalised for Churches, unless the Church chooses by its own choice to do it - which is surely the Churches own right?

Why repeal it? What does taking civil rights away from anyone achieve?

I don't view gay 'marriage' as a civil right.

Why not? Since this is a civil law not a religious one, the Churches make religious decisions, give me one civil reason why gay people should be denied marriage.

Because I don't view gay 'marriage' as being equal to actual, real marriage. I don't view it as legitimate which is why I wouldn't attend one. It's as simple as that.

Sorry "I don't view" is not a civil reason to deny equality before the law.

If I write "I don't view interracial 'marriage' as being ..." would that be a valid reason to deny people equality before the law? No.

The Churches can deny it if they want but give a civil reason to deny it in law.

Homosexual behaviour is very different to the pigmentation of someone's skin, and it is a controversial behaviour in terms of morality and religion.

Bit of a silly comparison to make. But I can see why you would think that if you personally don't have moral/religious objections to homosexual behaviour.

Assume this new account is a spoof?

I've always assumed yours was.

Whereas I can never remembering reading anything from you, so have no view on ‘TudorRose’ either way!

Suits me!

_Anazina_ said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

What does the Church have to do with it?

It was legalised civilly. It wasn't legalised for Churches, unless the Church chooses by its own choice to do it - which is surely the Churches own right?

Why repeal it? What does taking civil rights away from anyone achieve?

I don't view gay 'marriage' as a civil right.

Why not? Since this is a civil law not a religious one, the Churches make religious decisions, give me one civil reason why gay people should be denied marriage.

Because I don't view gay 'marriage' as being equal to actual, real marriage. I don't view it as legitimate which is why I wouldn't attend one. It's as simple as that.

Sorry "I don't view" is not a civil reason to deny equality before the law.

If I write "I don't view interracial 'marriage' as being ..." would that be a valid reason to deny people equality before the law? No.

The Churches can deny it if they want but give a civil reason to deny it in law.

Homosexual behaviour is very different to the pigmentation of someone's skin, and it is a controversial behaviour in terms of morality and religion.

Bit of a silly comparison to make. But I can see why you would think that if you personally don't have moral/religious objections to homosexual behaviour.

Assume this new account is a spoof?

I'm wondering if Sean T has finally managed the trick of creating a character that isn't a facsimile of his own. If so, well done old sport.

Another of Sean’s unworldly new PB characters? Testing them out for his new book, perhaps?

Theuniondivvie said:

_Anazina_ said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Viceroy_of_Orange said:

Philip_Thompson said:

What does the Church have to do with it?

It was legalised civilly. It wasn't legalised for Churches, unless the Church chooses by its own choice to do it - which is surely the Churches own right?

Why repeal it? What does taking civil rights away from anyone achieve?

I don't view gay 'marriage' as a civil right.

Why not? Since this is a civil law not a religious one, the Churches make religious decisions, give me one civil reason why gay people should be denied marriage.

Because I don't view gay 'marriage' as being equal to actual, real marriage. I don't view it as legitimate which is why I wouldn't attend one. It's as simple as that.

Sorry "I don't view" is not a civil reason to deny equality before the law.

If I write "I don't view interracial 'marriage' as being ..." would that be a valid reason to deny people equality before the law? No.

The Churches can deny it if they want but give a civil reason to deny it in law.

Homosexual behaviour is very different to the pigmentation of someone's skin, and it is a controversial behaviour in terms of morality and religion.

Bit of a silly comparison to make. But I can see why you would think that if you personally don't have moral/religious objections to homosexual behaviour.

Assume this new account is a spoof?

I'm wondering if Sean T has finally managed the trick of creating a character that isn't a facsimile of his own. If so, well done old sport.

Ah I see we have the same notion!

dixiedean said:

nico67 said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

nunuone said:

Things we know:

Boris will be the first to betray Brexit.

Farage could have a field day with Bozo . Not sure the Tories really have thought this through . And Farage wants to stay relevant , he doesn’t want Brexit delivered but wants the BP to be a force longer term .

You can’t out Brexit the BP. His message will be you can’t trust Bozo.

On tonight's YouGov the only question is whether it will be Farage or Boris PM, the Brexit Party and Tories and DUP are more combined than Labour and the SNP and LDs and Plaid and Greens combined

The polling with four parties close together can’t tell you how the seats would end up because you’re likely to see large variations between different seats . Any GE will also have different issues thrown into the mix .

The BP will do much better in the Midlands than say London or Scotland . Say the Tories and BP do a pact If they don’t stand in certain seats to help the Tories the problem there is you won’t have Labour Leavers voting Tory. Are the Tories willing to stand aside in high Leave areas for the BP I can’t see that .

Mmm. You won't have many Tory Remainers voted for Farage's mob either.
A TBP Tory pact is theoretically a winner. However, my home town of Wigan will vote TBP in a Euro election quite happily. I remain to be convinced it would elect TBP MPs standing on an open platform of enabling a Tory government.

Farage shrewdly would not commit to back either Labour or the Tories before the election but as Kingmaker simply promise to back whichever of Corbyn or Boris will deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal, in reality that means Boris.

Foxy said:

I too used to think that Gay marriage was unnecessary in the era of civil partnership. I was wrong, and having seen how happy getting married has made some gay friends am a supporter. It is an important part of equality.

Viceroy clearly has some issues about his own sexuality. I hope he resolves them before it is too late.

It was the social context which I had failed to understand. By that I mean that of course we all know long-term gay couples, and no-one was fussed or disapproving about it, but the relationships weren't something which formed part of the social fabric in the way that a marriage does. Civil partnerships went some way towards correcting that, but they were still essentially about the two people in isolation rather than as a couple linked into wider social ties.

On your second paragraph: you are too harsh. He's expressing views commonplace in many places, and certainly mainstream in the UK only a few years ago.

franklyn said:

I must admit to finding Rory Stewart refreshing, although I would be amazed if anyone (other than Boris) canderail Boris.

Stewart's father was a high ranking officer in SIS (MI6) and highly regarded. He was the model of Q from the James Bond films. Rory Stewart was,I understand, and almost certainly still is, a serving officer in MI6. If, Boris, as seems likely, becomes PM, and if, as usually happens with Boris, things descend into chaos, SIS will have their man ideally placed to step into pole position.

This is not the first time they have acted in this way; they were ready to oust Wilson, but never did so. But it is good to know that those whose job it is to protect us are doing their duty; indeed I find it most reassuring.

Wasn’t it MI5 that tried to overthrow Wilson? MI6’s job is overthrowing other countries’ governments.

Richard_Nabavi said:

Foxy said:

I too used to think that Gay marriage was unnecessary in the era of civil partnership. I was wrong, and having seen how happy getting married has made some gay friends am a supporter. It is an important part of equality.

Viceroy clearly has some issues about his own sexuality. I hope he resolves them before it is too late.

It was the social context which I had failed to understand. By that I mean that of course we all know long-term gay couples, and no-one was fussed or disapproving about it, but the relationships weren't something which formed part of the social fabric in the way that a marriage does. Civil partnerships went some way towards correcting that, but they were still essentially about the two people in isolation rather than as a couple linked into wider social ties.

On your second paragraph: you are too harsh. He's expressing views commonplace in many places, and certainly mainstream in the UK only a few years ago.

I agree.

Such views are still not unusual, indeed even Mayor Pete went through such a stage of self denial before getting over it. I guess some never do,

https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1140016567612321793