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Britain should keep open possibility of joining euro, says Labour frontbencher

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/britain-possibility-joining-euro-labour-frontbencher

FPT
kle4 said:

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Like the coming of the tides, I doubt we'll have to wait long.

I must say, I really am supportive of backbenchers not being pushovers, but these Tory ones seem like the most unpleasable and miserable bunch ever conceived.

MickPorkYou don't perhaps think their trust and gullibility has been well and truly tested to destruction many, many times before now? Oh I'm 100% certain there is a small hardcore that would like nothing better than to see Cammie humiliated at every turn but let's be realistic here. It's not just a small hardcore any more nor can all the endless posturing and pledges be easily forgotten. It's a two way street and they have good reason to be miserable if they keep believing the spin. The BOOers will never trust Cammie but we know it's not just them. Syria was not out of the blue. His own backbenchers warned him. Syria was also just the last time since there's plenty of other times. So yes you are quite correct. These tory backbenchers seem like the most unpleasable and miserable bunch ever conceived. But there's a reason they are that way and I'm afraid Cammie and the chumocracy can hardly pretend that reason is nothing to do with them.

That is true. I would certainly agree with Cameron regarding the core intransigents, in that my views are far closer to his than theirs, but ultimately he is responsible for having no control over his own party, and the numbers and variety of those ranging from total opposition to him to willingness to humiliate him, shows he has no grip on them at all.

Indeed, Mr. kle4. Even though I think we should leave the backbenchers sometimes give the impression of having the self-control and strategic foresight of a six month old.

Tykejohnno said:

Britain should keep open possibility of joining euro, says Labour frontbencher

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/britain-possibility-joining-euro-labour-frontbencher

Err, no.

RochdalePioneers said:

Tykejohnno said:

Britain should keep open possibility of joining euro, says Labour frontbencher

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/britain-possibility-joining-euro-labour-frontbencher

Err, no.

Well, maybe a recheck every 50 years or so? Just in case the unthinkable occurs?

kle4 said:

Only 2 candidates? Boo.

Which reminds me. What is a BOOer please? (In the Tory backbench context, when the SNP MPs and Mr Balls aren't speaking, that is.)

Scott_P said:

@ianssmart: SNP reaction to Standard Life issue is hugely revealing. Most of the diehards would genuinely not mind starving for their flag. Fair enough

Would he be this chappie by any chance? If so, not the most unbiased commentator.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/ian-smart-is-worse-than-a-racist-says-brother-1-2924947

RochdalePioneers said:

Tykejohnno said:

Britain should keep open possibility of joining euro, says Labour frontbencher

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/britain-possibility-joining-euro-labour-frontbencher

Err, no.

Scrapheap_as_was said:

We are shite.

Err,yes,according to labour front bencher,yes in the lords though ;-)

Alanbrooke said:

@Avery

given his utterings maybe Ed will do a better job on RBS than George. He's more likely to just break it up.

Despite your best attempts to polish the turd, on today's results we'd need a multiple of about 20 to get the taxpayer back to par. Ambitious to say the least.

As a matter of genuine interest, do you have an informed opinion on the law suit over the shares issue? I have to deal with the bumf on it for an elderly relative.

Scrapheap_as_was said:

We are shite.

So are the rest of English/welsh sides in European competitions this season ;-)

MikeK said:

"@chrisdeerin: Heeheehee RT @bobscartoons: Merkel meets the Queen. Tomorrow's @Telegraph cartoon pic.twitter.com/YJfUwbLrQy"

— Mark Tyrrell UKIP (@MarkTyrrellUKIP) February 27, 2014

Very good indeed.In his defence, few leaders in Europe would do otherwise, particularly when they need her as desperately as Cameron does.

smithersjones2013 said:

Scott_P said:

AveryLP said:

You want Ed to manage RBS?

The guy who doesn't know how headphones work?

@JohnRentoul: Ed Balls, wearing his headphones upside down. Via @ianpatterson99 & @stephentall http://t.co/JlrSHIK7oH”

Perhaps he didn't want to mess his hair up or needed extra support for his double chin?

I think it notable Balls and Osborne are both sporting their headphones in unconventional fashions (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26374698) - I knew I couldn't trust those two weirdos.

Carnyx said:

Alanbrooke said:

Carnyx said:

Alanbrooke said:

@Avery

given his utterings maybe Ed will do a better job on RBS than George. He's more likely to just break it up.

Despite your best attempts to polish the turd, on today's results we'd need a multiple of about 20 to get the taxpayer back to par. Ambitious to say the least.

As a matter of genuine interest, do you have an informed opinion on the law suit over the shares issue? I have to deal with the bumf on it for an elderly relative.

In which context ? Is your relative a minority shareholder in RBS ?

A very minority one, who was sold shares in the final share issue which the action group reckons was not fully informed.

I wasn't a shareholder so I'm not really that up to speed. However from the outside I'd say the board has a case to answer. These cases however tend to move at a lawyerly pace so I doubt there will be a quick outcome.

Mr. Scrapheap, are you alright?

AveryLP said:

Alanbrooke said:

@Avery

given his utterings maybe Ed will do a better job on RBS than George. He's more likely to just break it up.

Despite your best attempts to polish the turd, on today's results we'd need a multiple of about 20 to get the taxpayer back to par. Ambitious to say the least.

Well RBS has knocked Lloyds down with it but LBG is still around (0.80 per share from recent peak of c. £0.86, (Treasury breakeven c. £0.71). So I doubt George will be selling another tranche of Lloyds this fiscal year. He may be waiting for Lloyds's TSB IPO scheduled for May before selling.


Reason I mention Lloyds is twofold:

1. Recovering value of the original taxpayer investment is as much time related as 'multiples' driven. RBS is probably trading well below its real value and its underlying profits prospects are probably much higher than £2-3 bn recorded this year. So give RBS a couple more years and the extent of the payback will be clearer and easier to predict.

2. Lloyds is sailing and will pay dividends this year even if George decides not to sell. So dividend income and/or 'profits' made on the disposal of Lloyds shares may end up balancing the overall books.

As for breaking up the banks, you can't do this unless the resulting bits are sellable. But Ed wouldn't understand that. Don't let him anywhere near the decision, Mr. Brooke.

I would rather have Pork as PM.

Ah Pole dancing I see. :-)

Time is money Avery old bean and there's no way in the short or medium term the taxpayer is getting his money off RBS. The Bank of Mordor may be a different matter.

I'm afraid with RBS we've burned the cash and it's not coming back, a range of smaller banks from RBS would serve the economy much better. And as for a sale or float I thought that's what you London chappies were paid extortion fees for. If you're stuck I'll do it from the Midlands pro bono.

Alanbrooke said:

Carnyx said:

Alanbrooke said:

Carnyx said:

Alanbrooke said:

@Avery

given his utterings maybe Ed will do a better job on RBS than George. He's more likely to just break it up.

Despite your best attempts to polish the turd, on today's results we'd need a multiple of about 20 to get the taxpayer back to par. Ambitious to say the least.

As a matter of genuine interest, do you have an informed opinion on the law suit over the shares issue? I have to deal with the bumf on it for an elderly relative.

In which context ? Is your relative a minority shareholder in RBS ?

A very minority one, who was sold shares in the final share issue which the action group reckons was not fully informed.

I wasn't a shareholder so I'm not really that up to speed. However from the outside I'd say the board has a case to answer. These cases however tend to move at a lawyerly pace so I doubt there will be a quick outcome.

Many thanks; duly advised. Fortunately the relative is more interested in his greenhouse than worrying about this.

Never in dou......

AveryLP said:

Sean_F said:

FPT, Avery LP, my firm no longer does criminal law. If it did, I would defend a client charged with sexual offences against minors.

I would not argue that sexual acts between adults and minors should be lawful. Nor would I link up with an organisation that campaigned for such legalisation.

Sean

Would that be a personal decision (and a defence of the right for individual solicitors/firms to decline) or one you would argue all solicitors and their firms should follow?

My own view is that you take your clients as you find them. Solicitors are officers of the Court, so there are rules against lying on behalf of a client, and other forms of unethical conduct, but subject to that, you defend them as best you can. If a client admits guilt to you, you can't argue for their innocence, but you can require the Prosecution to prove their case.

Subject to anti-discrimination legislation, solicitors' firms can accept or reject any client.

@Scrapheap.

Paddy Power ‏@paddypower 1m

If Soldado fell into a barrel of tits right now he'd come up sucking his own thumb.

Sean_F said:

AveryLP said:

Sean_F said:

FPT, Avery LP, my firm no longer does criminal law. If it did, I would defend a client charged with sexual offences against minors.

I would not argue that sexual acts between adults and minors should be lawful. Nor would I link up with an organisation that campaigned for such legalisation.

Sean

Would that be a personal decision (and a defence of the right for individual solicitors/firms to decline) or one you would argue all solicitors and their firms should follow?

My own view is that you take your clients as you find them. Solicitors are officers of the Court, so there are rules against lying on behalf of a client, and other forms of unethical conduct, but subject to that, you defend them as best you can. If a client admits guilt to you, you can't argue for their innocence, but you can require the Prosecution to prove their case.

Subject to anti-discrimination legislation, solicitors' firms can accept or reject any client.

Thanks, Sean.

I know the difficulties second hand having shared a big chunk of my life with a family law barrister who ended up specialising in child abuse cases (on both sides).

It is not easy work.

Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics · 45 secs
YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead now five points: CON 34%, LAB 39%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 1m

YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead now five points: CON 34%, LAB 39%, LD 8%, UKIP 12%

Mr. Eagles, still can't believe the Lib Dems are on 8%. It's almost smaller than the margin between Labour and the Conservatives.

Anyway, having hit the word count I'm off to reward myself with some orange jelly.

Ok - time to do some work...

Cross-over tonight too?

I'd love to visit Geoff - never been. I'm fascinated by this avaricious obsession the Spanish have with the place. I understand they still sometimes close the border today. It's now the only controlled border in Western Europe. An interesting place.

I must confess still to getting confused about the whole situation about Gibraltar, as the description I often see about it is that the Spanish 'dispute sovereignty' of the place, which makes it sound like a Falklands type dispute, when despite disputes about the exact extent of and interpretation of the treaty regarding Gibraltar, I always thought they didn't actually dispute the sovereignty in legal terms, they just think it should be given back. That is, they want it back, but don't have the reasoning the argentines (correct or not) use to actually formally demand it back, which if they disputed the sovereignty of they would, right? I don't know.

We really need to teach more of the details in schools. But then again, my school never even touched upon the British Civil Wars for goodness sake.

Ukraine: Oh so predictable

No one can be surprised by events in the Crimea in the last 24-36 hours. That the Ukrainians made a go of suggesting the UN turn up in Crimea is an indication of how keen they were to head off the actions now taking place. The build up of Russian military activity since Sunday in Crimea and around Ukraine's eastern borders was spotted a mile away.

When you get Russian officials suggesting they are talking to the Ukraine military (the government being bypassed) about restoring order you do wonder. Bearing in mind the man the ousted President put in charge of the Ukrainian Army after the former Chief of Staff refused to put tanks on the street is still in that post it all starts to look tricky.

The problem for Kiev is that they cant just sit and watch and they aren't but are in a position where to restore some kind of order down in Crimea means a likely head top head with ever enlarging Russian forces. They are putting security forces around the Crimea (but not in it) and I'd find it doubtful that the Maidan activists will take what looks to be brewing laying down.

Ukrainians in Crimea have called on Kiev for protection, elements in the Tatar community have called out to Turkey for the same.

The irony of all this is that though there is the popular oversimplification that this is a Pro Europe vs Pro Russia conflict stoked by ethnic divisions one of the protesters' primary causes for going on the street was that they'd had enough of the corrupt state, the suppression of democratic process and associated liberal society right and the feeling that they had tied to the yoke of Russia. What drove many many people was that they wanted democracy and liberal democratic principles in their truest sense.

Now, however, it is very much much about pro and anti Russian sentiment.

Ousted President reportedly in Rostov, not too far from the South Eastern border of Ukraine. Still president apparently. Who says? Russian officials.

SeanT said:

Fascinating prog on BBC2 about the great British architecture of the Noughties and on. I find myself, oddly, cheering Ken Livingstone for pushing through the planning on the Gherkin, et al.

London has been returned to its status as - maybe - the greatest city in the world - by an eerie combination of lefty politicians and Tory moneymen.

Earlier in the week, there was an excellent program by the marmite Jonathon Meades. I normally hate brutalism with a passion (*), but the program actually made me think about it differently. He may even have changed my mind. But not the Tricorn. Never the Tricorn. -)

http://www.retrowow.co.uk/architecture/60s/tricorn/reflections.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/death-brutalism-and-prepubertal-sex-jonathan-meades-embraces-some-difficult-subjects-in-his-tv-series-and-memoir-9144497.html

(*) In general. There is certainly a functional grace in slipformed water cooling towers, and there are some good brutalist buildings. But generally they can age awfully, and I hate them.

Y0kel said:

Ousted President reportedly in Rostov, not too far from the South Eastern border of Ukraine. Still president apparently. Who says? Russian officials.

Well of course, there's no hard and fast rule about what constitutes a proper head of state, other than that people treat you as one. A corrollary to the Charles I 'You have no legal authority to try me' technique used by the justly and unjustly ousted througout history.

A murky situation though - usually I at least feel like there is an accepted train of thought in popular opiniom, right or wrong, about whether something is good or bad, but at the moment everyone still seems disputed over whether Putin is on the backfoot, still has the upper hand due to USA and EU traditional dithering, or anything in between.

That is surprising and interesting news that the Chief of Staff has not been replaced by his predessor though.

It is perfectly possible for both to lose, vote Lib Dem!

Possible, but unlikely...

GeoffM said:

It's a shame both of them can't lose.

foxinsoxuk said:

Anna Soubry on QT tonight, for eager followers of Broxtowe.

GeoffM said:

BobaFett said:

Would turn Gibraltar into a non-EU enclave. Which could be interesting!

GeoffM said:

I'm not sure it will be very interesting at all. In fact it will be very predictable.

The border was closed from 1969 - 1985 so many of us have already lived for a significant period of our lives reliant on goods brought in by sea. We've maintained complete independence in terms of water and electricity since then (just in case) so a renewed Spanish blockade would be deja vu.

The Spanish will close the border and the air routes again and we'll0 just settle back into siege mode again. Only hopefully this time the whole Rock won't have to keep switching between butter and margarine depending on which supply ship came in last.

BobaFett said:

I'd love to visit Geoff - never been. I'm fascinated by this avaricious obsession the Spanish have with the place. I understand they still sometimes close the border today. It's now the only controlled border in Western Europe. An interesting place.

You'd be very welcome and I'd be delighted to buy you a drink; as I would any PBer passing through here on holiday or on business.

That is unless you were a member of the Labour government which went behind the back of the people of Gib and tried to give us to the Spanish against our will. Yes NPxMP, I'm talking about you.

{EDIT: to try to fix or at least organise the blockquotes}

kle4 said:

Tykejohnno said:

It looks like the sun as taken the baton from the mail.

Friday's Sun front page - "Labour chiefs: It's ok to have sex with 10-yr-olds" #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/XaLhd4jGd0

https://twitter.com/TheSunNewspaper

Jesus! When was the last time there was a headline that inflammatory, or do I not read the papers enough?

Agree, the inflammatory bit ;-)

TheScreamingEagles said:

YouGov Polling in The Times

57% of voters believed that the failure by any party to win a majority would lead to “weak government.

87% of Tory voters would prefer another coalition with the Lib Dems than see Ed Miliband become PM.

On a minority govt vs a second coalition.

48% of Tory Voters would prefer a minority govt and GE after a year or two, 44% would prefer a second coalition.

Of all voters

33% want a Labour majority, 30% a Tory majority, 10% a Lib-Lab coalition and 7% wanted another deal between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives.


The YouGov poll was conducted among 2,062 people online on Tuesday and Wednesday.

I'm surprised that so many Tory voters would be pragmatic enough to prefer a coalition than see Ed M become PM, as the slavering beasts of the backbenches and pundit websites make it seem like most would prefer to see a straight out defeat than suffer such humilation again. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by voters being more reasonable than the commentariat, who need to talk a tough game.

kle4 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

YouGov Polling in The Times

57% of voters believed that the failure by any party to win a majority would lead to “weak government.

87% of Tory voters would prefer another coalition with the Lib Dems than see Ed Miliband become PM.

On a minority govt vs a second coalition.

48% of Tory Voters would prefer a minority govt and GE after a few years, 44% would prefer a second coalition.

Of all voters

33% want a Labour majority, 30% a Tory majority, 10% a Lib-Lab coalition and 7% wanted another deal between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives.


The YouGov poll was conducted among 2,062 people online on Tuesday and Wednesday.

I'm surprised that so many Tory voters would be pragmatic enough to prefer a coalition than see Ed M become PM, as the slavering beasts of the backbenches and pundit websites make it seem like most would prefer to see a straight out defeat than suffer such humilation again. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by voters being more reasonable than the commentariat, who need to talk a tough game.

There's a distinction between Tory voters and Tory activists.

Y0kel said:

Ah so thats why Hewitt has been flushed out .

Will Harman be flushed away?

However, a note of thanks for another clear synopsis of another brewing crisis.

kle4 said:

Jesus! When was the last time there was a headline that inflammatory, or do I not read the papers enough?

Sun editor on Sky paper review jut explained what is in the story

Morris_Dancer said:

Indeed, Mr. kle4. Even though I think we should leave the backbenchers sometimes give the impression of having the self-control and strategic foresight of a six month old.

I have always wondered how the average tory backbencher would get on with the deferred gratification test. In the test young children have a sweet put in front of them without any obvious supervision but are told that they will get 2 sweets if they wait for their mother to get back. All children eventually eat the sweet but the time they wait is a remarkably accurate forecast of their future academic and professional progress.

I really wonder if the average tory backbencher would wait long enough to hear the explanation before they swallowed the sweet and demanded more.

foxinsoxuk said:

It does look like payback time for Hacked Off. I loathe the patronising, moneygrubbing, advisor to private health care companies, and all round swine, Patricia Hewitt, but she is no child molester.

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

Tykejohnno said:

It looks like the sun as taken the baton from the mail.

Friday's Sun front page - "Labour chiefs: It's ok to have sex with 10-yr-olds" #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/XaLhd4jGd0

https://twitter.com/TheSunNewspaper

Jesus! When was the last time there was a headline that inflammatory, or do I not read the papers enough?

Blimey! No matter what the truth is, and the papers don't care anyway, this is bad for Labour.

I wonder if this is payback for newspaper regulation and the Labour stitch up with Hacked Off.

foxinsoxuk said:

It does look like payback time for Hacked Off. I loathe the patronising, moneygrubbing, advisor to private health care companies, and all round swine, Patricia Hewitt, but she is no child molester.

nigel4england said:

kle4 said:

Tykejohnno said:

It looks like the sun as taken the baton from the mail.

Friday's Sun front page - "Labour chiefs: It's ok to have sex with 10-yr-olds" #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/XaLhd4jGd0

https://twitter.com/TheSunNewspaper

Jesus! When was the last time there was a headline that inflammatory, or do I not read the papers enough?

Blimey! No matter what the truth is, and the papers don't care anyway, this is bad for Labour.

I wonder if this is payback for newspaper regulation and the Labour stitch up with Hacked Off.

I can see another event such as when The Mail went for Ed Milibands father.

I don't see why people are stunned by The Sun headline, I have said this type of propganda will be the norm for the next election. Expect an awful lot more of this from The Sun/The Mail/The Express.

BobaFett said:

I'm absolutely stunned by that Sun headline.

Surely either this will knock Labour's lead, or we can start to wonder if the repeated newspaper attacks on Labour are getting diminishing returns.

BobaFett said:

I'm absolutely stunned by that Sun headline.

There has to be something going on behind the scenes.

Is a big 'anti-tory' paedophile revelation about to break?

Or is it simply a reinvigorated press getting revenge for Leveson?

Very strange to see The Sun take over the baton from The Daily Mail.

compouter2 said:

I don't see why people are stunned by The Sun headline, I have said this type of propganda will be the norm for the next election. Expect an awful lot more of this from The Sun/The Mail/The Express.

The mirror,The people