politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ChangeUK is learning the hard way that there’s more to running
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Tweet of the year candidate.Theuniondivvie said:Toby's unending search for someone he can call a friend continues.
https://twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/11213294883175628800 -
No. The man who punched her is to blame.Slackbladder said:
you can't underestimate there's a lot of angry people out there on all sides. That is not good, and all parties have blame for this.isam said:0 -
Window dressing, did you see their coupons, they were there under duress to show face. Fake people showing fake sympathy.Foxy said:
One of the remarkeable, yet unremarked, good things that happened yesterday was that the PM, leader of the DUP, and LOTO all attended a memorial service for an out Lesbian Catholic. Even Ulster is beginning to move with the times.Sean_F said:
The Remain/Leave split in somewhere like inner Birmingham would suggest that plenty of Remain voters there would be of the view that homosexuality is an abomination. Some of them might have some interesting opinions on Jews and Christians, as well. Likewise, I doubt if Remain voters in Crossmaglen are noted for tolerance.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I would agree generally but there are some issues where in my opinion there is a right answer, and the fact someone holds the other POV tells you something quite unpleasant about their character. Eg can someone believe that gay people are an abomination and be considered a nice person? Can someone believe that Britain is a white country and non-whites should be "repatriated" and be a nice person? The answer to both questions is no in my view, and I can't honestly imagine being friends with such a person. (Not incidentally, both hypothetical people would be much more likely to have voted Leave than Remain).Sean_F said:
That turns on whether one thinks being in agreement with you has any bearing on whether one is a nice person. That would be a bold assumption, IMHO.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support forLeave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
There are good and bad people on either side.0 -
I have to agree with malcolmg here. Leaving the EU is going to cause such a mess of unexpected issues that rejoining is going to be very popular..malcolmg said:
I beg to differ.Casino_Royale said:FPT--the idea that, after three years of Brexit, Scotland will vote to go through that all over again with independence (which would be all the issues of Brexit on steroids) seems for the birds to me. Desire for full membership of the EU is very unlikely to overrule all of those concerns, despite how passionately some might feel about it.
The only issue really is what happens to Northern Ireland as Scotland leaves..0 -
All we have with Change is a bunch of MPs with their noses out of joint for various reasons who are opposed to Brexit and are otherwise talking platitudes about 'the old politics'.Nigelb said:There is great demand for an effective centrist party, IMO. Neither the LibDems nor Change UK are meeting it at the moment.
Umunna and Leslie are there primarily for career reasons. Couple of others are there because of antisemitism. Woollaston and Soubry are remainiacs. Heidi Allen seems to be one of those people who just feels she can run things using 'common sense'.
It needs some radical new ideas on the big issues. I'd like to see a book from a supportive intellectual heavyweight setting these out. I'd even like to skim read it. Then merge with the LibDems under a leader who can do some damage. Get the right person. Great if it's a woman but don't choose a woman just for the sake of it.0 -
Social housing.williamglenn said:Hmm, perhaps that will give Corbyn ideas. Nationalising Eton would be popular.
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Calling themselves ‘Change’ and pointing at the other parties and saying ‘old politics’ doesn’t mean that they aren’t a small group of establishment politicians breaking promises made at the last election and distancing themselves from ‘unfortunate tweets’. Same old same old or ‘SoSo’ would be a more fitting.kinabalu said:
All we have with Change is a bunch of MPs with their noses out of joint for various reasons who are opposed to Brexit and are otherwise talking platitudes about 'the old politics'.Nigelb said:There is great demand for an effective centrist party, IMO. Neither the LibDems nor Change UK are meeting it at the moment.
Umunna and Leslie are there primarily for career reasons. Couple of others are there because of antisemitism. Woollaston and Soubry are remainiacs. Heidi Allen seems to be one of those people who just feels she can run things using 'common sense'.
It needs some radical new ideas on the big issues. I'd like to see a book from a supportive intellectual heavyweight setting these out. I'd even like to skim read it. Then merge with the LibDems under a leader who can do some damage. Get the right person. Great if it's a woman but don't choose a woman just for the sake of it.0 -
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.
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But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support forLeave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
That turns on whether one thinks being in agreement with you has any bearing on whether one is a nice person. That would be a bold assumption, IMHO.
I would agree generally but there are some issues where in my opinion there is a right answer, and the fact someone holds the other POV tells you something quite unpleasant about their character. Eg can someone believe that gay people are an abomination and be considered a nice person? Can someone believe that Britain is a white country and non-whites should be "repatriated" and be a nice person? The answer to both questions is no in my view, and I can't honestly imagine being friends with such a person. (Not incidentally, both hypothetical people would be much more likely to have voted Leave than Remain).
The Remain/Leave split in somewhere like inner Birmingham would suggest that plenty of Remain voters there would be of the view that homosexuality is an abomination. Some of them might have some interesting opinions on Jews and Christians, as well. Likewise, I doubt if Remain voters in Crossmaglen are noted for tolerance.
There are good and bad people on either side.
One of the remarkeable, yet unremarked, good things that happened yesterday was that the PM, leader of the DUP, and LOTO all attended a memorial service for an out Lesbian Catholic. Even Ulster is beginning to move with the times.
Window dressing, did you see their coupons, they were there under duress to show face. Fake people showing fake sympathy.
I have to agree May only announced going when she heard Irish president and PM going. Not sure about Corbyn. I suppose it was hard for the
DUP to go into a Roman Catholic Church! Screwed that up don’t understand blockquote and what to do when the thread is too long0 -
Disgusting. This thieving trougher deserves serious prison time, she embezzled money meant for food banks.
A former SNP MP has admitted embezzling more than £25,600 from pro-independence organisations.
Natalie McGarry, 37, faced three charges of embezzlement and a charge that she refused to give police the passcode for a mobile phone they had seized.
McGarry, who represented Glasgow East but did not seek re-election in 2017, admitted two of the charges when she appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court on Wednesday and the Crown accepted not guilty pleas to the other two.
She embezzled £21,000 from Women for Independence in her role as treasurer of the organisation.
She transferred money raised through fundraising events into her personal bank accounts and failed to transfer charitable donations to Perth and Kinross food bank and to Positive Prison, Positive Future between April 26, 2013 and November 30, 2015.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1437263-natalie-mcgarry-admits-embezzlement-charges/0 -
Brilliant!TOPPING said:
She is saying the world is round in the face of a strong flat earth movement.rottenborough said:
She is deluded in thinking the commons will pass her vote if she keeps putting it forward.TOPPING said:Theresa May's errors occurred in 2016. Not now.
Now she is neither deluded nor indecisive.
She is promoting the only possible way for the UK to leave the EU on sensible and realistic terms which avoids damage.
That many in the Commons want to cause damage to their country is not her fault.0 -
Endgame was awesome.
No spoilers.
Just one bit of advice, void your bladders beforehand, with trailers it is over three and a half hours long and far too many people had to take comfort breaks, and you don’t want to miss a single second.0 -
....and Cambrdige to - it only produces spies and people with a dodgy taste in footwear.Alanbrooke said:
nah close Oxford Uni it produces a conveyor belt of shit politicianswilliamglenn said:
Hmm, perhaps that will give Corbyn ideas. Nationalising Eton would be popular.Alanbrooke said:Emperor Macron will address the san sculottes tonight and tell them why they dont want cake
His big offer appears to be the close the Ecole nationale dAdministration
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/emmanuel-macron-un-rendez-vous-crucial-avec-le-pays-201904240 -
Radio 4 this morning was fingering Gavin Wrottenborough said:This could cause some trouble:
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/11213086926101544960 -
Private PikeCharles said:
Radio 4 this morning was fingering Gavin Wrottenborough said:This could cause some trouble:
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1121308692610154496
Stupid Boy0 -
That would be hilarious - we'd see the gilets jaunes taking to the streets to save the ENA.Alanbrooke said:Emperor Macron will address the san sculottes tonight and tell them why they dont want cake
His big offer appears to be the close the Ecole nationale dAdministration
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/emmanuel-macron-un-rendez-vous-crucial-avec-le-pays-201904240 -
I'm going this evening, will deffo take your advice.TheScreamingEagles said:Endgame was awesome.
No spoilers.
Just one bit of advice, void your bladders beforehand, with trailers it is over three and a half hours long and far too many people had to take comfort breaks, and you don’t want to miss a single second.0 -
Lock him up.Charles said:
Radio 4 this morning was fingering Gavin Wrottenborough said:This could cause some trouble:
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1121308692610154496
So we could have two disgraced national security risks in the cabinet?0 -
Twitter...where wankers go to see who can be the biggest twat.Theuniondivvie said:Toby's unending search for someone he can call a friend continues.
https://twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/11213294883175628800 -
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Dave was right, inter alia, about Twitter, Kippers, and Brexit.FrancisUrquhart said:
Twitter...where wankers go to be twats.Theuniondivvie said:Toby's unending search for someone he can call a friend continues.
https://twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/1121329488317562880
We didn’t deserve him.0 -
I’ve seen it twice and am about to watch it for the third time, it gets better every time.Slackbladder said:
I'm going this evening, will deffo take your advice.TheScreamingEagles said:Endgame was awesome.
No spoilers.
Just one bit of advice, void your bladders beforehand, with trailers it is over three and a half hours long and far too many people had to take comfort breaks, and you don’t want to miss a single second.0 -
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Social media is slowly destroying all civility in our society.FrancisUrquhart said:
Twitter...where wankers go to see who can be the biggest twat.Theuniondivvie said:Toby's unending search for someone he can call a friend continues.
https://twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/11213294883175628800 -
You'd have to hope and presume that their is a senior staff officer in the MoD whose sole duty is to draw his sidearm and shoot the Fireplace Salesman in the event that we find ourselves in a war.TheScreamingEagles said:
Lock him up.Charles said:
Radio 4 this morning was fingering Gavin Wrottenborough said:This could cause some trouble:
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1121308692610154496
So we could have two disgraced national security risks in the cabinet?0 -
Who the FUCK do you think you are, coming out with shit like this?rottenborough said:Social media is slowly destroying all civility in our society.
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Nope - we are now suffering because of his attempt to use referendums to fix internal party politics, appalling campaigning and austerity that means parts of the country are poorer than Latvia and Bulgaria...TheScreamingEagles said:
Dave was right, inter alia, about Twitter, Kippers, and Brexit.FrancisUrquhart said:
Twitter...where wankers go to be twats.Theuniondivvie said:Toby's unending search for someone he can call a friend continues.
https://twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/1121329488317562880
We didn’t deserve him.0 -
'Scruton is part of an intellectual culture giving respectability to racism'
https://tinyurl.com/y5cnphxv
'Oh no he isn't!'
'Oh yes he is!'
etc0 -
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Euan McColm confounds expectation by disagreeing with you.TheScreamingEagles said:Disgusting. This thieving trougher deserves serious prison time, she embezzled money meant for food banks.
A former SNP MP has admitted embezzling more than £25,600 from pro-independence organisations.
Natalie McGarry, 37, faced three charges of embezzlement and a charge that she refused to give police the passcode for a mobile phone they had seized.
McGarry, who represented Glasgow East but did not seek re-election in 2017, admitted two of the charges when she appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court on Wednesday and the Crown accepted not guilty pleas to the other two.
She embezzled £21,000 from Women for Independence in her role as treasurer of the organisation.
She transferred money raised through fundraising events into her personal bank accounts and failed to transfer charitable donations to Perth and Kinross food bank and to Positive Prison, Positive Future between April 26, 2013 and November 30, 2015.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1437263-natalie-mcgarry-admits-embezzlement-charges/0 -
over/under two months before he drops out?williamglenn said:0 -
Was the puncher a Leaver or a Remainer? @OnlyLivingBoy would I presume price Leaver at around 1/10?ExiledInScotland said:
No. The man who punched her is to blame.Slackbladder said:
you can't underestimate there's a lot of angry people out there on all sides. That is not good, and all parties have blame for this.isam said:
Hard to tell whether Mrs Hales herself is pro or anti Brexit from her twitter (she's pro-music and anti-religion by the looks of things), but she did retweet this
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/877560911925358592
and this
https://twitter.com/bernardjenkin/status/915462718425092096
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The dilemma is real, and well illustrated by Andrew Moffat and the 'No Outsiders' programme he has developed, with the best of intentions, precipitating significant protests. It is a fact that this programme makes 'Outsiders' of those who for whatever reason oppose all same sex sexual relationships, and are prepared loudly to say so.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.
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Don't understand the question.brokenwheel said:
What's CHUK's excuse?kjh said:
Nick, why are you struggling with the logic of OLB statement. Surely it is logical. Although the vast majority of Leavers will be decent people, because they want to leave the EU that will attract the vocal nasty extreme right wingers, which then gives an unfair perception. It is what happens. It is not the fault of the Leavers, but that nasty minority tarnishes the less vocal majority.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I am serious, sorry. The point I am making is that people may feel like they don't want to be friends with some of the kind of people who voted leave, and I can sympathise with that. Look at the big pro-Remain march in London, which was totally peaceful and good humoured, would there be any objective reason not to be friends with any of those people? Contrast with some of the people protesting for Leave, and the way they have harassed MPs. A Leaver killed an MP. There have been multiple death threats. Would you want these people as your friend? Is it not revealing that the violence and threats have all been on one side?NickPalmer said:
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Personally I wouldn't be friends with homophobes and racists, for instance, and while not all Leavers are homophobes and racists most homophobes and racists are Leavers. If this makes me urban and middle class then sorry, I am too busy eating my avocado toast to give a fuck.0 -
Oh dear!Slackbladder said:And here's the sound of the last of Adonis's credibility checking into Dignatas
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1121128120243953670
Labour's canvassing returns but be REALLY bad in their heartlands for Adonis to agree to do this...0 -
Except, quite obviously, the idea that EU membership was a non-issue that politicians could just keep ignoring is patent nonsense.eek said:
Nope - we are now suffering because of his attempt to use referendums to fix internal party politics, appalling campaigning and austerity that means parts of the country are poorer than Latvia and Bulgaria...TheScreamingEagles said:
Dave was right, inter alia, about Twitter, Kippers, and Brexit.FrancisUrquhart said:
Twitter...where wankers go to be twats.Theuniondivvie said:Toby's unending search for someone he can call a friend continues.
https://twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/1121329488317562880
We didn’t deserve him.
And austerity has naff all to do with why some parts of the country are poor, they were poor before the recession.
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The reason people get into difficulties over this is because we are unwilling to allow space for both religious and non-religious views. A sin is a theological construct, irrelevant and meaningless to any non-religious person. Though the number of such people who opine on what religions should or should not believe from the outside is quite surprisingly high.NickPalmer said:FPT from Axiomatic last thread (I'd said that people should admit their past views without apology, and either regret them, defend them or simply calmly explain they'd moved on, giving my Communist past as an example)::
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Bravely said, but imagine if your past was not communist, but Catholic, and you had therefore expressed mainstream 20th century Catholic views on homosexuality? That they are sinners destined to burn in hell? That wouldn't look so good now and you might have to resign, it's a lottery, essentially
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I think that's another good example (and interesting that being a former orthodox Catholic is seen as more embarrassing than being a former Communist). I think that in that case opinion has moved so far that "defend it" is not a viable option, but I'd probably be OK with an MP who said they used to think that as a regular churchgoer but they've realised it was quite wrong.
But you do need to decide what your view is and stick up for it. Tim Farron's public agonising over whether being gay was a sin just exasperated everyone. As he now recognises, it'd have been less bad to say "I know most of my colleagues think it's odd, but my religious belief tells me this and I'm very committed to my religion." I think that would have led to his removal as LD leader but he'd have retained more respect.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/42638420
Determining what is or is not a sin should be irrelevant as far as law-making goes, as we are not a theocracy. So the fact that a religious person may believe that in religious terms some behaviour eg adultery is a sin should be irrelevant provided that they are not proposing to base their political actions on such a view.
It should be perfectly possible for a practising Christian politician to say that as a matter of religious belief he believes in the Ten Commandments. But that as a politician he should be judged on his policies not on his personal religious beliefs. I don’t know why Farron didn’t say as much. Possibly because he may have felt that those pursuing him would not have understood or would have refused to understand the distinction.Otherwise we are getting dangerously close to a situation whereby no-one who does not believe today’s acceptable received views can ever enter public life.
In short believe what you want in your church, synagogue, mosque. But if you then start acting on that belief in a way which harms others: no.0 -
Who can at least spell the name of their university...MarqueeMark said:
....and Cambrdige to - it only produces spies and people with a dodgy taste in footwear.Alanbrooke said:
nah close Oxford Uni it produces a conveyor belt of shit politicianswilliamglenn said:
Hmm, perhaps that will give Corbyn ideas. Nationalising Eton would be popular.Alanbrooke said:Emperor Macron will address the san sculottes tonight and tell them why they dont want cake
His big offer appears to be the close the Ecole nationale dAdministration
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/emmanuel-macron-un-rendez-vous-crucial-avec-le-pays-201904240 -
Why didn't they just stick with TIG? Easy to remember with the TIGer / TIGger thing. Independence from the big parties is a good selling point too.Dadge said:
Change has been consistently shown by focus groups to be a vote-winning slogan. It was Obama's slogan. Of course you are right that it seems quite vapid, but people are apt to fall for marketing campaigns. We'll see if this one has any legs.Mysticrose said:Even Change is crap. Change to what? Why? For whom? Most people, not just Gaffer Gamgee, actually don't like change. If you're going to advocate change you need to be very clear and decisive what you're offering them to change to. Offering a message of malcontent isn't enough if you're hoping for power. You'll remain fringe.
Has it also not occurred to anyone that Change and Remain are diametric opposites?
Offering Change when all your representatives are long serving members of the main parties seems bizarre.0 -
It's an oddly McDonnell move to say what you think one day and then what you should have said at leisure.GIN1138 said:
Oh dear!Slackbladder said:And here's the sound of the last of Adonis's credibility checking into Dignatas
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1121128120243953670
Labour's canvassing returns but be REALLY bad in their heartlands for Adonis to agree to do this...0 -
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They couldn't register as TIG for the Euros, it's too generic.houndtang said:
Why didn't they just stick with TIG? Easy to remember with the TIGer / TIGger thing. Independence from the big parties is a good selling point too.Dadge said:
Change has been consistently shown by focus groups to be a vote-winning slogan. It was Obama's slogan. Of course you are right that it seems quite vapid, but people are apt to fall for marketing campaigns. We'll see if this one has any legs.Mysticrose said:Even Change is crap. Change to what? Why? For whom? Most people, not just Gaffer Gamgee, actually don't like change. If you're going to advocate change you need to be very clear and decisive what you're offering them to change to. Offering a message of malcontent isn't enough if you're hoping for power. You'll remain fringe.
Has it also not occurred to anyone that Change and Remain are diametric opposites?
Offering Change when all your representatives are long serving members of the main parties seems bizarre.
Should have thought about that from the start....0 -
Adonis is on the Labour list for the South West - hardly Labour heartlands.GIN1138 said:
Oh dear!Slackbladder said:And here's the sound of the last of Adonis's credibility checking into Dignatas
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1121128120243953670
Labour's canvassing returns but be REALLY bad in their heartlands for Adonis to agree to do this...
It cannot be a surprise that Labour want their candidates to be unambiguously encouraging people to vote Labour...
... The surprise is that the same does not seem to apply to the Conservatives:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/21/tories-plan-vote-brexit-party-eu-elections-surveys-nigel-farage
On a related topic, have Widdecombe and Unity Rees-Mogg been expelled from the Conservative party or did they resign some time ago, do we know?0 -
Widders said yesterday on R4 that she expected to be expelled from the ToriesBenpointer said:
Adonis is on the Labour list for the South West - hardly Labour heartlands.GIN1138 said:
Oh dear!Slackbladder said:And here's the sound of the last of Adonis's credibility checking into Dignatas
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1121128120243953670
Labour's canvassing returns but be REALLY bad in their heartlands for Adonis to agree to do this...
It cannot be a surprise that Labour want their candidates to be unambiguously encouraging people to vote Labour...
... The surprise is that the same does not seem to apply to the Conservatives:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/21/tories-plan-vote-brexit-party-eu-elections-surveys-nigel-farage
On a related topic, have Widdecombe and Unity Rees-Mogg been expelled from the Conservative party or did they resign some time ago, do we know?0 -
https://www.twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1121052343217401857kjh said:
Don't understand the question.brokenwheel said:
What's CHUK's excuse?kjh said:
Nick, why are you struggling with the logic of OLB statement. Surely it is logical. Although the vast majority of Leavers will be decent people, because they want to leave the EU that will attract the vocal nasty extreme right wingers, which then gives an unfair perception. It is what happens. It is not the fault of the Leavers, but that nasty minority tarnishes the less vocal majority.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I am serious, sorry. The point I am making is that people may feel like they don't want to be friends with some of the kind of people who voted leave, and I can sympathise with that. Look at the big pro-Remain march in London, which was totally peaceful and good humoured, would there be any objective reason not to be friends with any of those people? Contrast with some of the people protesting for Leave, and the way they have harassed MPs. A Leaver killed an MP. There have been multiple death threats. Would you want these people as your friend? Is it not revealing that the violence and threats have all been on one side?NickPalmer said:
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Personally I wouldn't be friends with homophobes and racists, for instance, and while not all Leavers are homophobes and racists most homophobes and racists are Leavers. If this makes me urban and middle class then sorry, I am too busy eating my avocado toast to give a fuck.
Why does this not tarnish all remainers?0 -
There have been incidents like this before. Remember the peace women and their Nobel Peace Prize. It led to nothing. Or the women who campaigned against the IRA over the murder of their brother - hailed as heroines by one and all in public - but never got their brother’s killer brought to justice.Big_G_NorthWales said:Dr Foxy said
'One of the remarkeable, yet unremarked, good things that happened yesterday was that the PM, leader of the DUP, and LOTO all attended a memorial service for an out Lesbian Catholic. Even Ulster is beginning to move with the times.'
The service was an inspiration as the priest put all the politicians on the naughty step with the congregation rising as one in unity applauding the priest demands the politicians used the tragic death of this young journalist as a catalyst for good.
It took some moments for the politicians to rise to join the applause and their embarrassment was there on full display
It struck me that the media should put that moment in time on repeat every hour on the hour to knock sense into all our idiotic warring politicians
The measure of real change within the local community will be whether someone dobs in the killer of Lyra McKee and is willing to give evidence against them. The rest is all words, fine, inspiring words but still just words.0 -
Lock her up.Alistair said:
Euan McColm confounds expectation by disagreeing with you.TheScreamingEagles said:Disgusting. This thieving trougher deserves serious prison time, she embezzled money meant for food banks.
A former SNP MP has admitted embezzling more than £25,600 from pro-independence organisations.
Natalie McGarry, 37, faced three charges of embezzlement and a charge that she refused to give police the passcode for a mobile phone they had seized.
McGarry, who represented Glasgow East but did not seek re-election in 2017, admitted two of the charges when she appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court on Wednesday and the Crown accepted not guilty pleas to the other two.
She embezzled £21,000 from Women for Independence in her role as treasurer of the organisation.
She transferred money raised through fundraising events into her personal bank accounts and failed to transfer charitable donations to Perth and Kinross food bank and to Positive Prison, Positive Future between April 26, 2013 and November 30, 2015.
https://stv.tv/news/politics/1437263-natalie-mcgarry-admits-embezzlement-charges/0 -
She may be a Leaver but it wouldn't surprise me if an even more leavery Leaver was the assailant.TrèsDifficile said:
Was the puncher a Leaver or a Remainer? @OnlyLivingBoy would I presume price Leaver at around 1/10?ExiledInScotland said:
No. The man who punched her is to blame.Slackbladder said:
you can't underestimate there's a lot of angry people out there on all sides. That is not good, and all parties have blame for this.isam said:
Hard to tell whether Mrs Hales herself is pro or anti Brexit from her twitter (she's pro-music and anti-religion by the looks of things), but she did retweet this
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/877560911925358592
and this
https://twitter.com/bernardjenkin/status/915462718425092096
PS @TrèsDifficile given the evidence you provided how is it hard to tell whether she is pro-Brexit?0 -
I assume that you are just trying to wind me up there Sean? Remainers aren't necessarily righteous, Leavers aren't evil. However the extreme right associate themselves with Leave and have a disproportionate impact because of their behaviour. A few bad apples and all that.Sean_F said:
It's logical enough if you believe that you are righteous, and those who disagree with you are evil.kjh said:
Nick, why are you struggling with the logic of OLB statement. Surely it is logical. Although the vast majority of Leavers will be decent people, because they want to leave the EU that will attract the vocal nasty extreme right wingers, which then gives an unfair perception. It is what happens. It is not the fault of the Leavers, but that nasty minority tarnishes the less vocal majority.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I am serious, sorry. The point I am making is that people may feel like they don't want to be friends with some of the kind of people who voted leave, and I can sympathise with that. Look at the big pro-Remain march in London, which was totally peaceful and good humoured, would there be any objective reason not to be friends with any of those people? Contrast with some of the people protesting for Leave, and the way they have harassed MPs. A Leaver killed an MP. There have been multiple death threats. Would you want these people as your friend? Is it not revealing that the violence and threats have all been on one side?NickPalmer said:
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Personally I wouldn't be friends with homophobes and racists, for instance, and while not all Leavers are homophobes and racists most homophobes and racists are Leavers. If this makes me urban and middle class then sorry, I am too busy eating my avocado toast to give a fuck.0 -
It’s a given that if Scotland goes, NI goes. The clue is in the name “Ulster Scots”. There is no connection between NI and England, it’s always been with Scotland. Maybe some ultras might try to fight for a repartitioning with the NE corner becoming part of Scotland but the Scots won’t be having any of that.eek said:
I have to agree with malcolmg here. Leaving the EU is going to cause such a mess of unexpected issues that rejoining is going to be very popular..malcolmg said:
I beg to differ.Casino_Royale said:FPT--the idea that, after three years of Brexit, Scotland will vote to go through that all over again with independence (which would be all the issues of Brexit on steroids) seems for the birds to me. Desire for full membership of the EU is very unlikely to overrule all of those concerns, despite how passionately some might feel about it.
The only issue really is what happens to Northern Ireland as Scotland leaves..0 -
Huzzah, he's running. Thank f*ck I didn't red him out early.0
-
On present trends it will be a TIGgerBenpointer said:
She may be a Leaver but it wouldn't surprise me if an even more leavery Leaver was the assailant.TrèsDifficile said:
Was the puncher a Leaver or a Remainer? @OnlyLivingBoy would I presume price Leaver at around 1/10?ExiledInScotland said:
No. The man who punched her is to blame.Slackbladder said:
you can't underestimate there's a lot of angry people out there on all sides. That is not good, and all parties have blame for this.isam said:
Hard to tell whether Mrs Hales herself is pro or anti Brexit from her twitter (she's pro-music and anti-religion by the looks of things), but she did retweet this
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/877560911925358592
and this
https://twitter.com/bernardjenkin/status/915462718425092096
PS @TrèsDifficile given the evidence you provided how is it hard to tell whether she is pro-Brexit?0 -
I normally check after posting, but this one coincided with a troublesome courier delivery.....Nigelb said:
Who can at least spell the name of their university...MarqueeMark said:
....and Cambrdige to - it only produces spies and people with a dodgy taste in footwear.Alanbrooke said:
nah close Oxford Uni it produces a conveyor belt of shit politicianswilliamglenn said:
Hmm, perhaps that will give Corbyn ideas. Nationalising Eton would be popular.Alanbrooke said:Emperor Macron will address the san sculottes tonight and tell them why they dont want cake
His big offer appears to be the close the Ecole nationale dAdministration
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/emmanuel-macron-un-rendez-vous-crucial-avec-le-pays-20190424
(Can't spell too either....)0 -
Adonis may be standing in the south-west but Labour are clearly panic-stricken about something for his Lordship to be willing to destroy the past three years of unremitting fury against Brexit and Brexit voters...Benpointer said:
Adonis is on the Labour list for the South West - hardly Labour heartlands.GIN1138 said:
Oh dear!Slackbladder said:And here's the sound of the last of Adonis's credibility checking into Dignatas
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1121128120243953670
Labour's canvassing returns but be REALLY bad in their heartlands for Adonis to agree to do this...
It cannot be a surprise that Labour want their candidates to be unambiguously encouraging people to vote Labour...
... The surprise is that the same does not seem to apply to the Conservatives:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/21/tories-plan-vote-brexit-party-eu-elections-surveys-nigel-farage
On a related topic, have Widdecombe and Unity Rees-Mogg been expelled from the Conservative party or did they resign some time ago, do we know?
Canvassing returns in Labour seats in the Midlands and the north (all those places people like Roger thinks contains the dregs of society) would be my guess...0 -
I guess we'd need to hear from someone actually canvassing in those areas.GIN1138 said:
Adonis may be standing in the south-west but Labour are clearly panic-stricken about something for his Lordship to be willing to destroy the past three years of unremitting fury against Brexit and Brexit voters...Benpointer said:
Adonis is on the Labour list for the South West - hardly Labour heartlands.GIN1138 said:
Oh dear!Slackbladder said:And here's the sound of the last of Adonis's credibility checking into Dignatas
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1121128120243953670
Labour's canvassing returns but be REALLY bad in their heartlands for Adonis to agree to do this...
It cannot be a surprise that Labour want their candidates to be unambiguously encouraging people to vote Labour...
... The surprise is that the same does not seem to apply to the Conservatives:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/21/tories-plan-vote-brexit-party-eu-elections-surveys-nigel-farage
On a related topic, have Widdecombe and Unity Rees-Mogg been expelled from the Conservative party or did they resign some time ago, do we know?
Canvassing returns in Labour seats in the Midlands and the north (all those places people like Roger thinks contains the dregs of society) would be my guess...
Will there be any canvassing for the Euros yet?
0 -
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.0 -
Are the main parties planning to publish manifestos for the Euro elections? If so, when?0 -
'I definitely didn't order 5000 EU flags.'MarqueeMark said:
I normally check after posting, but this one coincided with a troublesome courier delivery.....Nigelb said:
Who can at least spell the name of their university...MarqueeMark said:
....and Cambrdige to - it only produces spies and people with a dodgy taste in footwear.Alanbrooke said:
nah close Oxford Uni it produces a conveyor belt of shit politicianswilliamglenn said:
Hmm, perhaps that will give Corbyn ideas. Nationalising Eton would be popular.Alanbrooke said:Emperor Macron will address the san sculottes tonight and tell them why they dont want cake
His big offer appears to be the close the Ecole nationale dAdministration
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/emmanuel-macron-un-rendez-vous-crucial-avec-le-pays-20190424
(Can't spell too either....)
'It's got your name on it pal.'
0 -
Yes, we've been there and done that. ever since 1969.Cyclefree said:
There have been incidents like this before. Remember the peace women and their Nobel Peace Prize. It led to nothing. Or the women who campaigned against the IRA over the murder of their brother - hailed as heroines by one and all in public - but never got their brother’s killer brought to justice.Big_G_NorthWales said:Dr Foxy said
'One of the remarkeable, yet unremarked, good things that happened yesterday was that the PM, leader of the DUP, and LOTO all attended a memorial service for an out Lesbian Catholic. Even Ulster is beginning to move with the times.'
The service was an inspiration as the priest put all the politicians on the naughty step with the congregation rising as one in unity applauding the priest demands the politicians used the tragic death of this young journalist as a catalyst for good.
It took some moments for the politicians to rise to join the applause and their embarrassment was there on full display
It struck me that the media should put that moment in time on repeat every hour on the hour to knock sense into all our idiotic warring politicians
The measure of real change within the local community will be whether someone dobs in the killer of Lyra McKee and is willing to give evidence against them. The rest is all words, fine, inspiring words but still just words.
People will beat their breasts over the murder of Lyra McKee, and 12 months from now, no one outside of her family will remember who she was.0 -
No, it doesn’t. As I have argued here - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/03/21/rendering-unto-caesar/ - his programme does not stop parents teaching their children about their religion. It does stop them using that as an excuse to be horrible to those who are different.algarkirk said:
The dilemma is real, and well illustrated by Andrew Moffat and the 'No Outsiders' programme he has developed, with the best of intentions, precipitating significant protests. It is a fact that this programme makes 'Outsiders' of those who for whatever reason oppose all same sex sexual relationships, and are prepared loudly to say so.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.0 -
The exhaustive Burns Report concluded that fox hunting was not cruel.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.0 -
I don't know. Maybe too soon. I'm not trying to say remainers are all good and leavers are all evil because that isn't true, but there are perceptions and these perceptions are created by a minority. It is pointless denying the perception is there, even if unfounded. Just look at those who camp outside Parliament. On both sides it is an extreme minority. The remainer extremes come over as eccentric, the leaver extremes come over as nasty.brokenwheel said:
https://www.twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1121052343217401857kjh said:
Don't understand the question.brokenwheel said:
What's CHUK's excuse?kjh said:
Nick, why are you struggling with the logic of OLB statement. Surely it is logical. Although the vast majority of Leavers will be decent people, because they want to leave the EU that will attract the vocal nasty extreme right wingers, which then gives an unfair perception. It is what happens. It is not the fault of the Leavers, but that nasty minority tarnishes the less vocal majority.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I am serious, sorry. The point I am making is that people may feel like they don't want to be friends with some of the kind of people who voted leave, and I can sympathise with that. Look at the big pro-Remain march in London, which was totally peaceful and good humoured, would there be any objective reason not to be friends with any of those people? Contrast with some of the people protesting for Leave, and the way they have harassed MPs. A Leaver killed an MP. There have been multiple death threats. Would you want these people as your friend? Is it not revealing that the violence and threats have all been on one side?NickPalmer said:
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Personally I wouldn't be friends with homophobes and racists, for instance, and while not all Leavers are homophobes and racists most homophobes and racists are Leavers. If this makes me urban and middle class then sorry, I am too busy eating my avocado toast to give a fuck.
Why does this not tarnish all remainers?0 -
If the Tories publish a 5-year programme, time to get concerned over their commitment to Brexit.Benpointer said:
Are the main parties planning to publish manifestos for the Euro elections? If so, when?0 -
You could well be right!Benpointer said:
She may be a Leaver but it wouldn't surprise me if an even more leavery Leaver was the assailant.TrèsDifficile said:
Was the puncher a Leaver or a Remainer? @OnlyLivingBoy would I presume price Leaver at around 1/10?ExiledInScotland said:
No. The man who punched her is to blame.Slackbladder said:
you can't underestimate there's a lot of angry people out there on all sides. That is not good, and all parties have blame for this.isam said:
Hard to tell whether Mrs Hales herself is pro or anti Brexit from her twitter (she's pro-music and anti-religion by the looks of things), but she did retweet this
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/877560911925358592
and this
https://twitter.com/bernardjenkin/status/915462718425092096
PS @TrèsDifficile given the evidence you provided how is it hard to tell whether she is pro-Brexit?
Her Leave EU (who she doesn't follow) retweet was mocking Labour, not supporting Brexit. Her Jenkin retweet was pro-music, not pro-Brexit. The Jenkin one was the only mention of Brexit in her last 3 years of tweets.0 -
Haha that's true. Presumably though their manifesto will be simply: "We proposed to leave as soon as possible under the terms of the negotiated WA".SandyRentool said:
If the Tories publish a 5-year programme, time to get concerned over their commitment to Brexit.Benpointer said:
Are the main parties planning to publish manifestos for the Euro elections? If so, when?
Labour's will be more interesting... Confirmatory Vote yes or no?0 -
Because foxes love being chased for miles and then being torn apart by a pack of dogs? Seems unlikely although I have not read this report and am generally in favour of listening to experts, if indeed that is what Mr or Mrs Burns is.TOPPING said:
The exhaustive Burns Report concluded that fox hunting was not cruel.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.0 -
Ok fair enough - top marks for your detailed research!TrèsDifficile said:
You could well be right!Benpointer said:
She may be a Leaver but it wouldn't surprise me if an even more leavery Leaver was the assailant.TrèsDifficile said:
Was the puncher a Leaver or a Remainer? @OnlyLivingBoy would I presume price Leaver at around 1/10?ExiledInScotland said:
No. The man who punched her is to blame.Slackbladder said:
you can't underestimate there's a lot of angry people out there on all sides. That is not good, and all parties have blame for this.isam said:
Hard to tell whether Mrs Hales herself is pro or anti Brexit from her twitter (she's pro-music and anti-religion by the looks of things), but she did retweet this
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/877560911925358592
and this
https://twitter.com/bernardjenkin/status/915462718425092096
PS @TrèsDifficile given the evidence you provided how is it hard to tell whether she is pro-Brexit?
Her Leave EU (who she doesn't follow) retweet was mocking Labour, not supporting Brexit. Her Jenkin retweet was pro-music, not pro-Brexit. The Jenkin one was the only mention of Brexit in her last 3 years of tweets.
0 -
I know for a fact that foxes much prefer being caught in traps and gnawing their own limbs off to escape.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Because foxes love being chased for miles and then being torn apart by a pack of dogs? Seems unlikely although I have not read this report and am generally in favour of listening to experts, if indeed that is what Mr or Mrs Burns is.TOPPING said:
The exhaustive Burns Report concluded that fox hunting was not cruel.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.0 -
Latest poll from Spain, the Roses are on 26.2 (-1.2 on two days ago), Aubergines on 13.5 (+1.1), Oranges 15.1 (+0.7), Water 19.9 (n/c), Broccoli 12.4 (-0.1). Slight reversion to last time as polling day approaches.0
-
When you're too gamey for even the Brexit Party to touch.
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/11213644365461954570 -
In their case it's prudent to avoid their supporters getting elected, to avoid later embarrassment.Benpointer said:"ChangeUK going AWOL for the biggest set of local elections in the four year cycle of these elections might in retrospect not look smart."
Couldn't the same be said of the Brexit Party?0 -
Has the author of that report ever been ripped apart by a pack of dogs? I think the slaughtered foxes are the best judges of what amounts to cruelty.TOPPING said:
The exhaustive Burns Report concluded that fox hunting was not cruel.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.0 -
They are far from obvious, you are just being intolerant and saying your views are 'more profound' than those you disagree with. After all, the two examples I gave represent what would have been the mainstream views of most people in the UK 30 years ago, and would still be the mainstream views in many societies today.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.
Autres temps, autres moeurs.0 -
Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
0 -
My theory is Roses are slightly over-estimated, Broccoli slightly under.TheWhiteRabbit said:Latest poll from Spain, the Roses are on 26.2 (-1.2 on two days ago), Aubergines on 13.5 (+1.1), Oranges 15.1 (+0.7), Water 19.9 (n/c), Broccoli 12.4 (-0.1). Slight reversion to last time as polling day approaches.
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I think the bigger question for broccoli is not how many people prefer it, but where those people are. Although the Spanish system is not full FPTP it can still make quite a big difference.brokenwheel said:
My theory is Roses are slightly over-estimated, Broccoli slightly under.TheWhiteRabbit said:Latest poll from Spain, the Roses are on 26.2 (-1.2 on two days ago), Aubergines on 13.5 (+1.1), Oranges 15.1 (+0.7), Water 19.9 (n/c), Broccoli 12.4 (-0.1). Slight reversion to last time as polling day approaches.
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Been down to College Green a few times (I am strangely addicted to it) and I am sorry to report that the Leave protesters are indeed a Basket of Deplorables.kjh said:I don't know. Maybe too soon. I'm not trying to say remainers are all good and leavers are all evil because that isn't true, but there are perceptions and these perceptions are created by a minority. It is pointless denying the perception is there, even if unfounded. Just look at those who camp outside Parliament. On both sides it is an extreme minority. The remainer extremes come over as eccentric, the leaver extremes come over as nasty.
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Can you show me where in the Burns report that conclusion is stated?TOPPING said:
The exhaustive Burns Report concluded that fox hunting was not cruel.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20080727002638/http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/mainsections/report.pdf0 -
U
Ask a lamb or pregnant sheep or hen savaged by a fox what they think of foxes, if we’re going to get into asking animals what they think.SandyRentool said:
Has the author of that report ever been ripped apart by a pack of dogs? I think the slaughtered foxes are the best judges of what amounts to cruelty.TOPPING said:
The exhaustive Burns Report concluded that fox hunting was not cruel.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.
The Burn report concluded that foxes were pests and needed to be culled and that many of the other ways of culling them were equally if not crueller than fox-hunting.
But the argument on this has been done. It’s not going to be brought back, foxes are still culled and trail hunting is still going on. There are more important issues in the countryside for politicians to address, if they can be bothered.0 -
According to Wikipedia, you are incorrect. It states that the Burns Committee did not seek to address the ethical aspect of hunting with dogs. Burns stated that there was insufficient "verifiable evidence or data to safely reach views about cruelty" . In other words, he said they could not say it was cruel, not that he could say it wasn't cruel (not proven, rather than innocent). The report did state that hunting with dogs "seriously compromises" the welfare of the quarry species.TOPPING said:
The exhaustive Burns Report concluded that fox hunting was not cruel.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.
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Chuka was on Newnight the other night and agreed with the premise that the EU elections are kind of a proxy referendum...nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
So if the Tories are devoured by the Brexit Party in the shires and Labour are devoured by the Brexit Party in the north I assume we'll hear no more about referendums and CHUK will disband?
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Biden video: superb. Take the fight on values to Trump.
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The foxes are irrelevant. It's the people who hunt them who are the targets.Richard_Nabavi said:
They are far from obvious, you are just being intolerant and saying your views are 'more profound' than those you disagree with. After all, the two examples I gave represent what would have been the mainstream views of most people in the UK 30 years ago, and would still be the mainstream views in many societies today.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being concrete always helps. Examples of the kind of intolerant threats I am talking about are Islamist terrorism and the far right. These are people who are intolerant of other people's right to exist or to live their life in a way that involves no meaningful harm to others. It should be obvious that fox hunting involves an unacceptable level of cruelty towards animals - who while not perhaps deserving of all the same rights as humans deserve at least the right to not to experience pain simply so people can enjoy it. The right to bring your children up as you see fit is a strong one, but surely the right of gay people not to be subject to profound discrimination is stronger? Including of course the children involved, some of whom will be gay. Bring liberal doesn't mean that anyone can do anything they like whenever and wherever the fancy takes them. When rights collide, then the more profound right should dominate; this must involve a value judgement but in my view most cases are relatively obvious, as I think your two examples are.Richard_Nabavi said:
So you are saying, to take a couple of counter examples, someone to whom fox-hunting is a crucial part of their way of life (and there are many such people), or someone who holds deeply-held religious views which mean they disapprove of schools teaching their children about LBGT rights, should not be tolerant of the threat to their way of life from the intolerance of metropolitan liberals?OnlyLivingBoy said:
How far tolerant societies should tolerate the threat from the intolerant is one of the most pressing questions of our times. Only up to a point is I think the honest answer, and indeed the revealed preference of these societies. Where that point is depends on your tolerance to the threat and that in part depends on whether the threat is to you and your loved ones directly. "if you tolerate this, your children will be next" turned out to be prophetic, after all.
Autres temps, autres moeurs.0 -
The Labour Party have few Leave voters compared to the Tories so will probably do okay . They will stay on the fence re another vote with the same all options on the table waffle .GIN1138 said:
Chuka was on Newnight the other night and agreed with the premise that the EU elections are kind of a proxy referendum...nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
So if the Tories are devoured by the Brexit Party in the shires and Labour are devoured by the Brexit Party in the north I assume we'll hear no more about referendums and CHUK will disband?0 -
Euro poll from France (Ifop-Fiducial for Paris Match)
République en marche (Macron) 22%
Rassemblement national (LePen) 20.5%
Les Républicains (UMP) 15%
France insoumise (Melenchon) 9%
Greens 8.5%
Socialists 6%
Debout la France (Gaullists) 4.5%
Génération.s (ex Socialists led by Hamon) 3%
Les Patriotes ( Philippot) 2.5%%
Communists 2%
UDI 1.5%
Lutte ouvrière 1%
They have changed the electoral system this year. National lists (rather than regional) with a 5% threshold to get seats.0 -
IMO the route to Ref2 is the election of a Labour government.nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
If we get an election before Brexit I think Labour will offer that and will win.0 -
Yet Lord Adonis is on his knees literally begging Labour leave voters (who he'd originally told to **** off) to keep voting Labour...nico67 said:
The Labour Party have few Leave voters compared to the Tories so will probably do okay . They will stay on the fence re another vote with the same all options on the table waffle .GIN1138 said:
Chuka was on Newnight the other night and agreed with the premise that the EU elections are kind of a proxy referendum...nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
So if the Tories are devoured by the Brexit Party in the shires and Labour are devoured by the Brexit Party in the north I assume we'll hear no more about referendums and CHUK will disband?
Think about it. 0 -
Whilst I think you might be right, what would the other option be? The deal which they claim is the work of Satan?kinabalu said:
IMO the route to Ref2 is the election of a Labour government.nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
If we get an election before Brexit I think Labour will offer that and will win.0 -
Literally on his knees? Was there a video?GIN1138 said:
Yet Lord Adonis is on his knees literally begging Labour leave voters to keep voting Labour...nico67 said:
The Labour Party have few Leave voters compared to the Tories so will probably do okay . They will stay on the fence re another vote with the same all options on the table waffle .GIN1138 said:
Chuka was on Newnight the other night and agreed with the premise that the EU elections are kind of a proxy referendum...nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
So if the Tories are devoured by the Brexit Party in the shires and Labour are devoured by the Brexit Party in the north I assume we'll hear no more about referendums and CHUK will disband?
Think about it. 0 -
Remain Vs Remain?Richard_Nabavi said:
Whilst I think you might be right, what would the other option be?kinabalu said:
IMO the route to Ref2 is the election of a Labour government.nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
If we get an election before Brexit I think Labour will offer that and will win.
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Now that could be close!GIN1138 said:
Remain Vs Remain?Richard_Nabavi said:
Whilst I think you might be right, what would the other option be?kinabalu said:
IMO the route to Ref2 is the election of a Labour government.nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
If we get an election before Brexit I think Labour will offer that and will win. 0 -
This seems to me to be wishful thinking. As far as I can see, Labour have nowhere stated that they will offer a second referendum, with Remain as one of the options. They did not do so in 2017, they have not done so at any point since.kinabalu said:
IMO the route to Ref2 is the election of a Labour government.nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
If we get an election before Brexit I think Labour will offer that and will win.
They would like people to believe that they might, with all sorts of weasel wording floated about. But they have not been clear. I may be wrong but far too many people are choosing to believe what they would like to be true.0 -
Yes. 'Who we are!'rottenborough said:Biden video: superb. Take the fight on values to Trump.
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Remain vs Revoke would be better.GIN1138 said:
Remain Vs Remain?Richard_Nabavi said:
Whilst I think you might be right, what would the other option be?kinabalu said:
IMO the route to Ref2 is the election of a Labour government.nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
If we get an election before Brexit I think Labour will offer that and will win.0 -
TheWhiteRabbit said:
Latest poll from Spain, the Roses are on 26.2 (-1.2 on two days ago), Aubergines on 13.5 (+1.1), Oranges 15.1 (+0.7), Water 19.9 (n/c), Broccoli 12.4 (-0.1). Slight reversion to last time as polling day approaches.
Sounds like Gardeners' Question Time.0 -
The problem is I can’t see an election before Brexit happens . The Tories aren’t going to vote for one whilst their poll numbers are in the toilet . Even with a new leader coming in on a hard Brexit offer the Brexit Party will say you can’t trust the Tories to deliver and that will cost them loads of votes .kinabalu said:
IMO the route to Ref2 is the election of a Labour government.nico67 said:Labours policy for the EU elections will be the same fudge that’s happened for the last year .
Unless there’s a change of government then there’s no chance of another EU vote . You can’t just miraculously make another vote appear .
Another vote is very unlikely , there are very few EU nations left that want the UK to stay now anyway.
I say this as a staunch Remainer but really the UK has become a big problem now for the EU.
Just can’t see how another vote happens when you have the executive against it , and there’s no majority in the Commons for it anyway .
Am I missing something ?
If we get an election before Brexit I think Labour will offer that and will win.
0
