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Kate Hoey on Newsnight is saying that parliament shouldn't have been involved in this. Obviously a fan of @isam.0
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Hoey - “it (the WA) wasn’t leaving properly’.
Ridiculous.0 -
anothernick, don't worry yourself dear, after all "we hold all the cards".0
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Newsnight piece from my hometown...0
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Who does the catering at these nosh-ups? Essentially the future of Britain rests on the Cognac being of sufficient quality to cheer the French president.0
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Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/0 -
Including FoxyRichard_Nabavi said:
Poppycock, the PD can't be locked down. A parliament can't bind its successors, and the EU won't discuss anything substantive until we've left. The Labour position is just a cynical excuse to cause trouble, and everyone knows it.Foxy said:
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:0 -
Unfortunately opposing for the sake of opposing at a time a crisis when the proposal is indistinguishable from yours is probably the time to act like a government in waiting, make the right compromises and come up with something. We have a Government who can’t govern and an opposition who are more interested in opposing than governing.The_Taxman said:
That is what oppositions do! I remember Labour causing troubles on the Maastricht treaty in the 1990s because they sensed an opportunity, not because they sided with nutters. This mess over Brexit is a ERG/DUP problem. A Tory acquaintance of mine who is deeply involved in the party blames constituency associations for selecting people obsessed with Europe. There are some who use Europe to get on within the party and some whose whole belief system revolves around the 'problem' of Europe and they will obsess whether the UK is in the EU or outside it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:0 -
Except not even Labour voters agree on that either, 45% of 2017 Labour voters backed a CU, 45% opposed it with Comres this week, the pressure from Labour activists is for a People's Vote or revoke, Corbyn faces a problem with Remainers just as May does with No Dealers.Foxy said:
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
A CU may be grudgingly accepted by middle ground voters though0 -
That's a bit of it, sure, but there are other reasons. It helps to paper over the Brexit divisions within the Labour Party to an extent too. Then there's the wish not to feed the betrayal myth of the Leavers by being seen to impose a fake Brexit onto the true believers. There are many more reasons to oppose the Withdrawal Agreement beyond mere cynicism.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
And what reason do they have to support it? Logical consistency and responsible governance?
Small beer in comparison.0 -
I’m flattered!williamglenn said:Kate Hoey on Newsnight is saying that parliament shouldn't have been involved in this. Obviously a fan of @isam.
Such an obvious point. The only reason they got involved was to stop us leaving, and the only reason we had a referendum was because parliament and the people disagreed.0 -
Give me 1 Roger Scruton for 10 Owen Jonesisam said:Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/0 -
Some might remember the triumphs of his speeches! I think he managed 17 standing ovations at his last conference as leader. The current PM often finds she has no voice at all rather than talking about turning up the volume! The current and past leader of course could be outdone by Boris Johnson though, he likes a laugh so he would probably turn up to Conservative conference dressed as a WWII SS commandant! They are clearly so detached from reality that even that is not beyond the scope of how a post Brexit nationalistic Tory party led by Johnson would behave...Chris_A said:IDS anyone. The Tories are loony enough to do it again.
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Let’s hope they have given him some nice cheese. I would recommend a Marolles_Anazina_ said:Who does the catering at these nosh-ups? Essentially the future of Britain rests on the Cognac being of sufficient quality to cheer the French president.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroilles_cheese0 -
Nobody has any idea what this CU will cost. I suspect when that 45% in favour are told the cost, they will scream "HOW MUCH????"HYUFD said:
Except not even Labour voters agree on that either, 45% of 2017 Labour voters backed a CU, 45% opposed it with Comres this week, the pressure from Labour activists is for a People's Vote or revoke, Corbyn faces a problem with Remainers just as May does with No Dealers.Foxy said:
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
A CU may be grudgingly accepted by middle ground voters though0 -
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?Richard_Nabavi said:
Poppycock, the PD can't be locked down. A parliament can't bind its successors, and the EU won't discuss anything substantive until we've left. The Labour position is just a cynical excuse to cause trouble, and everyone knows it.Foxy said:
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:0 -
She'd have a stronger point if she hadn't herself voted three times against the Withdrawal Agreement.isam said:
I’m flattered!williamglenn said:Kate Hoey on Newsnight is saying that parliament shouldn't have been involved in this. Obviously a fan of @isam.
Such an obvious point. The only reason they got involved was to stop us leaving, and the only reason we had a referendum was because parliament and the people disagreed.0 -
If the EU agree an extension tonight I hope that in the excitement Mrs may hasn't forgot The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019 which currently in section 2.(2)(b) sets "exit day" as 22nd April. IS there any debate planned on a new statutory instrument tomorrow?0
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Bit like the rest of Brexit, forget the £39 Billion divorce bill it is going to be a shed more money for no apparent gain!MarqueeMark said:
Nobody has any idea what this CU will cost. I suspect when that 45% in favour are told the cost, they will scream "HOW MUCH????"HYUFD said:
Except not even Labour voters agree on that either, 45% of 2017 Labour voters backed a CU, 45% opposed it with Comres this week, the pressure from Labour activists is for a People's Vote or revoke, Corbyn faces a problem with Remainers just as May does with No Dealers.Foxy said:
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
A CU may be grudgingly accepted by middle ground voters though0 -
No, I mean that everything would be (relatively) OK if Labour voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with which they have no disagreement, and which is the only one available anyway.TOPPING said:
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?0 -
The point is so strong it doesn’t matter who said it!Richard_Nabavi said:
She'd have a stronger point if she hadn't herself voted three times against the Withdrawal Agreement.isam said:
I’m flattered!williamglenn said:Kate Hoey on Newsnight is saying that parliament shouldn't have been involved in this. Obviously a fan of @isam.
Such an obvious point. The only reason they got involved was to stop us leaving, and the only reason we had a referendum was because parliament and the people disagreed.0 -
'We have now had 9 years of Conservative majority government '...Eh?isam said:Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/0 -
Well it will still cost less than the economic damage of No Deal and the political damage of RevokeMarqueeMark said:
Nobody has any idea what this CU will cost. I suspect when that 45% in favour are told the cost, they will scream "HOW MUCH????"HYUFD said:
Except not even Labour voters agree on that either, 45% of 2017 Labour voters backed a CU, 45% opposed it with Comres this week, the pressure from Labour activists is for a People's Vote or revoke, Corbyn faces a problem with Remainers just as May does with No Dealers.Foxy said:
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
A CU may be grudgingly accepted by middle ground voters though
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isam said:
Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/
"Perhaps there are those who think that Scruton should not have agreed to be interviewed by the New Statesman, the left-wing magazine being unlikely to conduct a fair interview."isam said:Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/
I thought this chap was supposed to be an intellectual? Damning with faint praise indeed for the Spectator to be saying he's too thick to know that his answers will get him into trouble.0 -
The only democracy in the Middle East?
https://twitter.com/Mendelpol/status/1116099877564485632
https://twitter.com/Mendelpol/status/11161002426534912010 -
I suspect at this point if it was a case of do nothing and stay in. we would actually do nothing and stay in. Brexit is in the too difficult basket. It's getting through to all but the most deluded that no-one serious, EU or otherwise, will offer terms that are as good as now. That UK ministers will be hanging around the lobby in Brussels while the prime minister of Latvia, who has a vote unlike the UK, decides what we need to do and that this is the very opposite of "taking control". That Brexit is a massive distraction, a huge mess and will cost enormously for no real benefit.
Problem is, there is no do nothing option. (Don't imagine No Deal is such. It's do nothing in the same way as seeing your house burn down. You have to do something - call the fire brigade, find a new place to live)
On a related topic, good piece about why a moderate, bogged down and damage limited Brexit is poor return on anyone's political capital. Labour don't benefit by owning the mess that results from Brexit. Conservatives don't benefit from crossing their red lines and accepting that Brexit means damage that needs limiting.
https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/11158645937489059840 -
A parliament can bind its successors now. All you need to do is hold and win a referendum.Richard_Nabavi said:
Poppycock, the PD can't be locked down. A parliament can't bind its successors, and the EU won't discuss anything substantive until we've left. The Labour position is just a cynical excuse to cause trouble, and everyone knows it.Foxy said:
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:0 -
I can only think he means the majority of people in govt have been Conservativesdixiedean said:
'We have now had 9 years of Conservative majority government '...Eh?isam said:Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/0 -
Yes Blair/Cameron would be behaving like an alternative Govt but Corbyn is not really serious about being PM. He probably could not handle the pressure to be honest. I would not vote for Corbyn if I was paid by the way!Nemtynakht said:
Unfortunately opposing for the sake of opposing at a time a crisis when the proposal is indistinguishable from yours is probably the time to act like a government in waiting, make the right compromises and come up with something. We have a Government who can’t govern and an opposition who are more interested in opposing than governing.The_Taxman said:
That is what oppositions do! I remember Labour causing troubles on the Maastricht treaty in the 1990s because they sensed an opportunity, not because they sided with nutters. This mess over Brexit is a ERG/DUP problem. A Tory acquaintance of mine who is deeply involved in the party blames constituency associations for selecting people obsessed with Europe. There are some who use Europe to get on within the party and some whose whole belief system revolves around the 'problem' of Europe and they will obsess whether the UK is in the EU or outside it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:0 -
I think you have a (minor) blind spot here. Not only is it not Labour's job to prop up the government but the government can't even convince itself let alone its own party.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, I mean that everything would be (relatively) OK if Labour voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with which they have no disagreement, and which is the only one available anyway.TOPPING said:
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?
How on earth could or should the opposition support the government under those circumstances?0 -
Not really. It's a bit odd to say parliament should let the executive get on with it and then vote against the executive getting on with it, isn't it?isam said:
The point is so strong it doesn’t matter who said it!Richard_Nabavi said:
She'd have a stronger point if she hadn't herself voted three times against the Withdrawal Agreement.isam said:
I’m flattered!williamglenn said:Kate Hoey on Newsnight is saying that parliament shouldn't have been involved in this. Obviously a fan of @isam.
Such an obvious point. The only reason they got involved was to stop us leaving, and the only reason we had a referendum was because parliament and the people disagreed.0 -
I wouldn’t take it if it was 1000/1. Mark Francois has got as much chance of winning the Tory leadership as I have of getting a Nobel peace prize. Outside of some terrible incident, let’s say a meteorite hitting Parliament, and he was left as the only Tory standing like in the US tv series Designated Survivor where Kiefer Sutherland becomes president.Jonathan said:If there are 316 Tory MPs is an achievement to be a 400/1 shot for next leader.
It would not be inconceivable that he could get nominated after some sort of reservoir dogs ERG massacre. I’m laughing as I write this but he makes Boris look sane!!!0 -
It's not being asked to support the government. It's being asked to vote to ratify an international treaty with which it has no quarrel and which is a necessary condition for its own policy.TOPPING said:
I think you have a (minor) blind spot here. Not only is it not Labour's job to prop up the government but the government can't even convince itself let alone its own party.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, I mean that everything would be (relatively) OK if Labour voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with which they have no disagreement, and which is the only one available anyway.TOPPING said:
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?
How on earth could or should the opposition support the government under those circumstances?0 -
It is, proverbially, Theresa May's Deal.Richard_Nabavi said:
It's not being asked to support the government. It's being asked to vote to ratify an international treaty with which it has no quarrel.TOPPING said:
I think you have a (minor) blind spot here. Not only is it not Labour's job to prop up the government but the government can't even convince itself let alone its own party.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, I mean that everything would be (relatively) OK if Labour voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with which they have no disagreement, and which is the only one available anyway.TOPPING said:
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?
How on earth could or should the opposition support the government under those circumstances?0 -
Yes, well that was one of the many entirely avoidable PR blunders of Theresa May.TOPPING said:
It is, proverbially, Theresa May's Deal.Richard_Nabavi said:
It's not being asked to support the government. It's being asked to vote to ratify an international treaty with which it has no quarrel.TOPPING said:
I think you have a (minor) blind spot here. Not only is it not Labour's job to prop up the government but the government can't even convince itself let alone its own party.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, I mean that everything would be (relatively) OK if Labour voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with which they have no disagreement, and which is the only one available anyway.TOPPING said:
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?
How on earth could or should the opposition support the government under those circumstances?0 -
Doesn't inspire confidence in his political or literacy skills though. Change majority to led.Can the Spectator not afford copy editors ?isam said:
I can only think he means the majority of people in govt have been Conservativesdixiedean said:
'We have now had 9 years of Conservative majority government '...Eh?isam said:Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/0 -
It will still add massively to the narrative that MPs having got a fucking clue....HYUFD said:
Well it will still cost less than the economic damage of No Deal and the political damage of RevokeMarqueeMark said:
Nobody has any idea what this CU will cost. I suspect when that 45% in favour are told the cost, they will scream "HOW MUCH????"HYUFD said:
Except not even Labour voters agree on that either, 45% of 2017 Labour voters backed a CU, 45% opposed it with Comres this week, the pressure from Labour activists is for a People's Vote or revoke, Corbyn faces a problem with Remainers just as May does with No Dealers.Foxy said:
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.TGOHF said:
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?Richard_Nabavi said:
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.kle4 said:
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
A CU may be grudgingly accepted by middle ground voters though0 -
Macron is behaving like a bit of an idiot tonight.0
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An interesting tweet from the usually well-informed Peter Foster:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1116099508281184261
And an interesting point from the Greeks.0 -
But the reason she cannot take all her party is that she has come to her own consensus position, and to be fair we are saying outside of political interest there would probably be a majority for the WA.TOPPING said:
I think you have a (minor) blind spot here. Not only is it not Labour's job to prop up the government but the government can't even convince itself let alone its own party.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, I mean that everything would be (relatively) OK if Labour voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with which they have no disagreement, and which is the only one available anyway.TOPPING said:
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?
How on earth could or should the opposition support the government under those circumstances?
Her personality fault is that she relies to much on her own calculation, and does not appear to have considered listening. The reports on her consultations where she listens politely and then repeats back her proposal demonstate this.
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Maybe the best outcome of the next election is Corbyn in Downing Street with support from Sturgeon in return for another Indy referendum, which hopefully would be defeated by 60% to 40%. That would be the end of Scottish Nationalism for at least 20 years.0
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Except to a large extent our membership rights are the equivalent of sitting in the corridor outside or just going along with whatever the rest of the EU want. It is the 'joy' of QMVNigelb said:
It really isn’t.Richard_Tyndall said:
Um no. Given we are still members, what this shows is that inside the EU we have no control at all. This situation is a perfect example of what it will be like permanently for the UK if we do not leave now.Benpointer said:
Spot on. Sadly.Scott_P said:
What we’re asking for is a temporary extension of our membership, which we have voluntarily taken steps to surrender. That has bugger all to do with our legal ability to exercise our membership rights while we are members.0 -
What about the other 6?HYUFD said:0 -
It is a bit odd. I can kind of see the logic in it, if she’s saying she shouldn’t have got a vote on it, but having got one she felt she had to vote against it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Not really. It's a bit odd to say parliament should let the executive get on with it and then vote against the executive getting on with it, isn't it?isam said:
The point is so strong it doesn’t matter who said it!Richard_Nabavi said:
She'd have a stronger point if she hadn't herself voted three times against the Withdrawal Agreement.isam said:
I’m flattered!williamglenn said:Kate Hoey on Newsnight is saying that parliament shouldn't have been involved in this. Obviously a fan of @isam.
Such an obvious point. The only reason they got involved was to stop us leaving, and the only reason we had a referendum was because parliament and the people disagreed.0 -
It’s not humiliating.TOPPING said:
And do those take back controllers really think it will be different during our forthcoming negotiations?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
Because of Parliament’s truculence we need an extension. We’ve requested one. Our counterparty is debating whether to give us one.
I’ve done a deal when we stopped a 45 day clock for 360 days before finally agreed terms. And if our counterparty want agreed there was a tedious process that done of us wanted involved.0 -
dixiedean said:
Doesn't inspire confidence in his political or literacy skills though. Change majority to led.Can the Spectator not afford copy editors ?isam said:
I can only think he means the majority of people in govt have been Conservativesdixiedean said:
'We have now had 9 years of Conservative majority government '...Eh?isam said:Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/
What do I care?!0 -
Absolutely and this goes deeper than @Richard_Nabavi's "PR blunder".Nemtynakht said:
But the reason she cannot take all her party is that she has come to her own consensus position, and to be fair we are saying outside of political interest there would probably be a majority for the WA.TOPPING said:
I think you have a (minor) blind spot here. Not only is it not Labour's job to prop up the government but the government can't even convince itself let alone its own party.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, I mean that everything would be (relatively) OK if Labour voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with which they have no disagreement, and which is the only one available anyway.TOPPING said:
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?
How on earth could or should the opposition support the government under those circumstances?
Her personality fault is that she relies to much on her own calculation, and does not appear to have considered listening. The reports on her consultations where she listens politely and then repeats back her proposal demonstate this.
She is PM and leader of the Conservative Party and she got is here in the name of that party and people think the Opposition should bail her and her party out.
And then she leaves. To be followed by...0 -
If you think this is being in control and not a humiliation then I'd hate to think what a bad negotiating position would look like to you.Charles said:
It’s not humiliating.TOPPING said:
And do those take back controllers really think it will be different during our forthcoming negotiations?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
Because of Parliament’s truculence we need an extension. We’ve requested one. Our counterparty is debating whether to give us one.
I’ve done a deal when we stopped a 45 day clock for 360 days before finally agreed terms. And if our counterparty want agreed there was a tedious process that done of us wanted involved.0 -
This story may well get lost in the noise, but it looks like Labour's suggestion that we could have been in the EU's customs union and still had a say in it wasn't as far fetched as it sounded.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-britain-customs-union-irish-pm-leo-varadkar-trade-deals-a8864016.html
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I think copy-editors don't exist any more.dixiedean said:
Doesn't inspire confidence in his political or literacy skills though. Change majority to led.Can the Spectator not afford copy editors ?isam said:
I can only think he means the majority of people in govt have been Conservativesdixiedean said:
'We have now had 9 years of Conservative majority government '...Eh?isam said:Lefties rejoice as Roger Scruton is sacked
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/roger-scrutons-sacking-exposes-the-tories-cowardice/0 -
Theresa May is incompetent but it probably makes a marginal difference to the end result. Brexit was always going to end in the morass. In the same way people like to blame the ERG for undermining their own Brexit, but a) they didn't have the votes to get Brexit through anyway and b) nobody votes emotionally for something and then accepts damage limitation. It's unrealistic. They didn't promote, vote and live Leave just to mitigate the worst effects of this decision,Nemtynakht said:
But the reason she cannot take all her party is that she has come to her own consensus position, and to be fair we are saying outside of political interest there would probably be a majority for the WA.TOPPING said:
I think you have a (minor) blind spot here. Not only is it not Labour's job to prop up the government but the government can't even convince itself let alone its own party.Richard_Nabavi said:
No, I mean that everything would be (relatively) OK if Labour voted for the Withdrawal Agreement with which they have no disagreement, and which is the only one available anyway.TOPPING said:
You mean if only Labour would agree with the Conservatives everything would be ok?
How on earth could or should the opposition support the government under those circumstances?
Her personality fault is that she relies to much on her own calculation, and does not appear to have considered listening. The reports on her consultations where she listens politely and then repeats back her proposal demonstate this.0 -
Similar joys await us post any conceivable Brexit.Richard_Tyndall said:
Except to a large extent our membership rights are the equivalent of sitting in the corridor outside or just going along with whatever the rest of the EU want. It is the 'joy' of QMVNigelb said:
It really isn’t.Richard_Tyndall said:
Um no. Given we are still members, what this shows is that inside the EU we have no control at all. This situation is a perfect example of what it will be like permanently for the UK if we do not leave now.Benpointer said:
Spot on. Sadly.Scott_P said:
What we’re asking for is a temporary extension of our membership, which we have voluntarily taken steps to surrender. That has bugger all to do with our legal ability to exercise our membership rights while we are members.
Just wait until we try to negotiate a trade deal with Trump.
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The Euro Elections are almost certainly going ahead now in the UK?0
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31st October new compromise Brexit date agreed by EU according to Peston, if so we will definitely contest the European Parliament elections.
Review date at end of June0 -
It is.Richard_Nabavi said:An interesting tweet from the usually well-informed Peter Foster:
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1116099508281184261
And an interesting point from the Greeks.
Still, France is nowhere near as isolated as we are.
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Hallowe’en extension - hopefully the end of the horror show of T May is before then.0
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Without No Deal the chances of a Yes vote in any indyref2 are very low anyway, so Sturgeon caught in the trap she has to back BINO or Revoke but that strengthens the UnionAndyJS said:Maybe the best outcome of the next election is Corbyn in Downing Street with support from Sturgeon in return for another Indy referendum, which hopefully would be defeated by 60% to 40%. That would be the end of Scottish Nationalism for at least 20 years.
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Unless the Corbyn-May talks actually do lead to an agreement, or Parliament passes a deal otherwise.HYUFD said:31st October new compromise Brexit date agreed by EU according to Peston, if so we will definitely contest the European Parliament elections
So in short I agree: Virtually certain we will contest them.0 -
Bring on the EU elections - Brexit Party vs UKIP vs the CUKs vs Monster Raving Loony !0
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Donald’s Unpleasancerottenborough said:0 -
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NEW THREAD
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Or not...TGOHF said:Bring on the EU elections - Brexit Party vs UKIP vs the CUKs vs Monster Raving Loony !
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/11159177185852661760 -
Maybe the Greens will arise out of nowhere as per Germany?TGOHF said:Bring on the EU elections - Brexit Party vs UKIP vs the CUKs vs Monster Raving Loony !
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So we have six months to sort ourselves out.
That starts with Cabinet telling Theresa May tomorrow that times up and getting a new Con leader/PM followed by a general election in July.0 -
John Whittingdale endorses Boris for PM live on Peston0
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I spoke to a friend this morning who was instrumental in standing up Benny Gantz’s challengesTheScreamingEagles said:The only democracy in the Middle East?
https://twitter.com/Mendelpol/status/1116099877564485632
https://twitter.com/Mendelpol/status/1116100242653491201
The biggest surprise and disappointment was Arab turnout - they feel so beaten down by the new legislation that they didn’t vote - turnout in this section of the community was half normal levels
If they had voted at normal rates it would have been Ciao Bibi.
But they are proud of what they achieved from a standing start in a few months and are not going away0 -
Being emotional about negotiations is a bad negotiating positionTOPPING said:
If you think this is being in control and not a humiliation then I'd hate to think what a bad negotiating position would look like to you.Charles said:
It’s not humiliating.TOPPING said:
And do those take back controllers really think it will be different during our forthcoming negotiations?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
Because of Parliament’s truculence we need an extension. We’ve requested one. Our counterparty is debating whether to give us one.
I’ve done a deal when we stopped a 45 day clock for 360 days before finally agreed terms. And if our counterparty want agreed there was a tedious process that done of us wanted involved.
Countries aren’t humiliated.0 -
Really? I am so embarrassed by the whole thing that if I spoke any other language well enough to pass as a native I'd be lying about my origins in casual conversations while abroad.Charles said:
Being emotional about negotiations is a bad negotiating positionTOPPING said:
If you think this is being in control and not a humiliation then I'd hate to think what a bad negotiating position would look like to you.Charles said:
It’s not humiliating.TOPPING said:
And do those take back controllers really think it will be different during our forthcoming negotiations?anothernick said:
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.Scott_P said:
Because of Parliament’s truculence we need an extension. We’ve requested one. Our counterparty is debating whether to give us one.
I’ve done a deal when we stopped a 45 day clock for 360 days before finally agreed terms. And if our counterparty want agreed there was a tedious process that done of us wanted involved.
Countries aren’t humiliated.0
This discussion has been closed.