Reporting here from planet normal (I’m with the in laws). Seems to me that most nonpolitical people have now largely forgotten about Brexit and assume it’s no longer happening.
Anecdotal, obviously,
At my work management meeting on Tuesday we agreed to drop Brexit risks from one of the 5 biggest risks facing the business down to 20th on the grounds that it was not imminent and might never happen. Nobody dissented from that analysis.
It's going to be interesting to see how Brexit features in the news media going forward.
For a long time now, it's been the number 1 story on TV news almost every single day.
But TV news editors must be conscious that people have short attention spans and will be getting bored.
If there's a short extension then of course it'll remain prominent. But if there's a long extension I do wonder whether TV news editors are going to dramatically reduce its prominence - and if they do then to some extent it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy - less publicity = people lose interest = people move onto other things = politicians move onto other things. And it's then less of a stretch to just not bother - forget it and abandon it.
Yes this is quite a likely scenario I think. Up to now I have been expecting a second referendum but I am beginning to wonder if there will just be an endless series of extensions and eventually A50 will be revoked because everyone will have forgotten what was the point of leaving in the first place.
The campaigners' reports from the doorsteps do rather suggest otherwise.
Campaigners’ reports from the doorstep miraculously reflect their own views 99% of the time. It’s just one of those inexplicable coincidences.
The famous “chemist” Elena Ceausescu amassed over a hundred honorary degrees and honorary professorships.
She was honoured by the UK’s Royal Institute for Chemistry and the University of London for her “distinguished scientific achievements in macromolecular chemistry”.
I think I rest my case. It is better to get rid of these “honours” which demean the giver, but pander to the vanity of the recipient.
There is no need for honorary degrees or honorary professorships or honorary anything.
IIRC, scientists in concentration camps had to write dissertations which were then published under her name.
It may well be that what concerns the other leaders more is less Britain's position but why France is so keen to see Britain out. If they feel that this is a power play by France to grab more power within the EU that may push the others into pushing back against French demands, purely to stop Macron behaving like the effective ruler of the EU.
I must say that were I the EU I would be tempted to say that I have little faith that the WA will be voted on by Parliament and that the only real choice is either a WA approved in a referendum or Revoke or No Deal and that the extension is being given to allow time for one of these three choices to be made. This fiction about talks leading to a PD which will allow MPs to vote for a WA they have rejected three times already is just that, a fiction.
Someone should do a cartoon where the men in white coats and the men in grey suits all arrive at No 10 at once, only to discover May is on a walking holiday in Wales.
Is Westminster a better school than Eton? Discuss....
Westminster and Christ Church certainly beats Eton and Trinity (Trinity Oxford at least; Trinity Cambridge would tie).
UCS and Exeter beats both.
Goodness! Were you a UCS boy?
My education was mostly from the books I took out of Swiss Cottage library. Oh - and poetry books. Plus the very odd collection of novels and history books my Italian family had.
It may well be that what concerns the other leaders more is less Britain's position but why France is so keen to see Britain out. If they feel that this is a power play by France to grab more power within the EU that may push the others into pushing back against French demands, purely to stop Macron behaving like the effective ruler of the EU.
I must say that were I the EU I would be tempted to say that I have little faith that the WA will be voted on by Parliament and that the only real choice is either a WA approved in a referendum or Revoke or No Deal and that the extension is being given to allow time for one of these three choices to be made. This fiction about talks leading to a PD which will allow MPs to vote for a WA they have rejected three times already is just that, a fiction.
Tony Blair has been "advising" Macron (but we don't know what he's been saying) of course...
Someone should do a cartoon where the men in white coats and the men in grey suits all arrive at No 10 at once, only to discover May is on a walking holiday in Wales.
It may well be that what concerns the other leaders more is less Britain's position but why France is so keen to see Britain out. If they feel that this is a power play by France to grab more power within the EU that may push the others into pushing back against French demands, purely to stop Macron behaving like the effective ruler of the EU.
I must say that were I the EU I would be tempted to say that I have little faith that the WA will be voted on by Parliament and that the only real choice is either a WA approved in a referendum or Revoke or No Deal and that the extension is being given to allow time for one of these three choices to be made. This fiction about talks leading to a PD which will allow MPs to vote for a WA they have rejected three times already is just that, a fiction.
I think enough Labour MPs from Leave seats would vote for the Deal over Revoke or No Deal, it may be May leaves MPs to make the final decision on the PD
BBC says 17 countries so far arguing for long extension.
But what are their conditions and are they legal.
You cannot restrict a full member or their meps if they want to be difficult. The ECJ would throw them out of court
You can make the continued extension dependent on conditions being met, though, without legally restricting anything. You just need the threat of ending the extension. The ECJ would have no input.
She knows we get reports of what she says to the EU, right? In what universe does the WA pass? Not one where we have a long extension, that's for sure.
Reporting here from planet normal (I’m with the in laws). Seems to me that most nonpolitical people have now largely forgotten about Brexit and assume it’s no longer happening.
Anecdotal, obviously,
At my work management meeting on Tuesday we agreed to drop Brexit risks from one of the 5 biggest risks facing the business down to 20th on the grounds that it was not imminent and might never happen. Nobody dissented from that analysis.
It's going to be interesting to see how Brexit features in the news media going forward.
For a long time now, it's been the number 1 story on TV news almost every single day.
But TV news editors must be conscious that people have short attention spans and will be getting bored.
If there's a short extension then of course it'll remain prominent. But if there's a long extension I do wonder whether TV news editors are going to dramatically reduce its prominence - and if they do then to some extent it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy - less publicity = people lose interest = people move onto other things = politicians move onto other things. And it's then less of a stretch to just not bother - forget it and abandon it.
Yes this is quite a likely scenario I think. Up to now I have been expecting a second referendum but I am beginning to wonder if there will just be an endless series of extensions and eventually A50 will be revoked because everyone will have forgotten what was the point of leaving in the first place.
The campaigners' reports from the doorsteps do rather suggest otherwise.
I think people are both fed up and becoming disinterested with the minutiae but also incredulous that Parliament is unable to reach a consensus after the instruction.
BBC says 17 countries so far arguing for long extension.
But what are their conditions and are they legal.
You cannot restrict a full member or their meps if they want to be difficult. The ECJ would throw them out of court
You can make the continued extension dependent on conditions being met, though, without legally restricting anything. You just need the threat of ending the extension. The ECJ would have no input.
You cannot threaten a member with meps and paying into the budget, it would be thrown out of court
Is Westminster a better school than Eton? Discuss....
Westminster and Christ Church certainly beats Eton and Trinity (Trinity Oxford at least; Trinity Cambridge would tie).
UCS and Exeter beats both.
Goodness! Were you a UCS boy?
My education was mostly from the books I took out of Swiss Cottage library. Oh - and poetry books. Plus the very odd collection of novels and history books my Italian family had.
BBC says 17 countries so far arguing for long extension.
But what are their conditions and are they legal.
You cannot restrict a full member or their meps if they want to be difficult. The ECJ would throw them out of court
You can make the continued extension dependent on conditions being met, though, without legally restricting anything. You just need the threat of ending the extension. The ECJ would have no input.
You cannot threaten a member with meps and paying into the budget, it would be thrown out of court
That does not seem to be the situation. They are (potentially) offering an extension voluntarily, in return for the UK voluntarily offering not to exercise some of its membership rights. That does not prevent the UK exercising those rights - and in turn that would not prevent the 27 ending the extension (presumably at checkpoints to be agreed as part of the deal).
I’m not in favour of any of this, but I don’t see that the ECJ would prevent it.
Is Westminster a better school than Eton? Discuss....
Westminster and Christ Church certainly beats Eton and Trinity (Trinity Oxford at least; Trinity Cambridge would tie).
UCS and Exeter beats both.
Goodness! Were you a UCS boy?
My education was mostly from the books I took out of Swiss Cottage library. Oh - and poetry books. Plus the very odd collection of novels and history books my Italian family had.
From 1978 to 1985
Thanks. My two sons went there and I was at South Hampstead. Small world etc....
BBC says 17 countries so far arguing for long extension.
But what are their conditions and are they legal.
You cannot restrict a full member or their meps if they want to be difficult. The ECJ would throw them out of court
You can make the continued extension dependent on conditions being met, though, without legally restricting anything. You just need the threat of ending the extension. The ECJ would have no input.
You cannot threaten a member with meps and paying into the budget, it would be thrown out of court
That does not seem to be the situation. They are (potentially) offering an extension voluntarily, in return for the UK voluntarily offering not to exercise some of its membership rights. That does not prevent the UK exercising those rights - and in turn that would not prevent the 27 ending the extension (presumably at checkpoints to be agreed as part of the deal).
I’m not in favour of any of this, but I don’t see that the ECJ would prevent it.
Um no. Given we are still members, what this shows is that inside the EU we have no control at all. This situation is a perfect example of what it will be like permanently for the UK if we do not leave now.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Um no. Given we are still members, what this shows is that inside the EU we have no control at all. This situation is a perfect example of what it will be like permanently for the UK if we do not leave now.
It really isn’t.
What we’re asking for is a temporary extension of our membership, which we have voluntarily taken steps to surrender. That has bugger all to do with our legal ability to exercise our membership rights while we are members.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
That's absurd. Sure, for domestic purpose he needs to give the impression that he fought tooth and nail against perfidious Albion. But there doesn't need to be any reality to it, they just need to smoke cigars, drink cognac and exchange salacious jokes for a few hours and then emerge looking dishevelled saying what a tough negotiation it was, but they managed to stay united.
That's absurd. Sure, for domestic purpose he needs to give the impression that he fought tooth and nail against perfidious Albion. But there doesn't need to be any reality to it, they just need to smoke cigars, drink cognac and exchange salacious jokes for a few hours and then emerge looking dishevelled saying what a tough negotiation it was, but they managed to stay united.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing. If all it is that he needs to look the toughest on us for his domestic politics that's not that big a deal.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
No, that would be no Deal and the loss of Scotland and a United Ireland
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?
Um no. Given we are still members, what this shows is that inside the EU we have no control at all. This situation is a perfect example of what it will be like permanently for the UK if we do not leave now.
Surely inside the EU we would have a veto power exactly as every one of the 27 now has over us and the timeframe for our departure?
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Take back control seems to depend on whether the President of France enjoyed his dinner, but on a lighter note:
New bid to oust Theresa May as MPs attempt to gather 10,000 signatures to change the Tory constitution
Interesting. That's prompted me to take a look at the Conservative Party Constitution, which states that any proposed change has to be approved not by the membership but by the constitutional college and, crucially, there are various thresholds that have to be met. For a change to pass it has to be supported by:
"not less than 50% of those members of the Constitutional College eligible to vote and... not less than 66% of Members of Parliament voting; and... not less than 66% of Members of the National Conservative Convention voting."
... so not necessarily that easy for the ERG mob to win.
As an aside, what a shame similar thresholds were not in place for the constitutional change prompted by the EU Ref!
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
No, that would be no Deal and the loss of Scotland and a United Ireland
But that is a hypothetical. Todays events in Brussels are reality.
Um no. Given we are still members, what this shows is that inside the EU we have no control at all. This situation is a perfect example of what it will be like permanently for the UK if we do not leave now.
Surely inside the EU we would have a veto power exactly as every one of the 27 now has over us and the timeframe for our departure?
If we revoke, then yes, but if on a flextension can reasonably be excluded from many decisions.
That's absurd. Sure, for domestic purpose he needs to give the impression that he fought tooth and nail against perfidious Albion. But there doesn't need to be any reality to it, they just need to smoke cigars, drink cognac and exchange salacious jokes for a few hours and then emerge looking dishevelled saying what a tough negotiation it was, but they managed to stay united.
Sounds like you’ve been to one of these EU shindigs before Richard!
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
It's not even about defending her really, I don't think there are many who would suggest her approach and tactics have been blameless in all this, she is PM after all, but when some of those so entranced by the humilating position she is in very much contributed to that position I don't think it really holds up. It's humiliating, yes, but the reason it is happening is so far everyone has failed. Her more than most? Who cares.
That's absurd. Sure, for domestic purpose he needs to give the impression that he fought tooth and nail against perfidious Albion. But there doesn't need to be any reality to it, they just need to smoke cigars, drink cognac and exchange salacious jokes for a few hours and then emerge looking dishevelled saying what a tough negotiation it was, but they managed to stay united.
Sounds like you’ve been to one of these EU shindigs before Richard!
Luckily not, but if there's a pressing need to find candidates for the European elections, I am prepared, for the sake of the country and the party, to sacrifice my own interests to the higher good and spend a few months investing taxpayers' money in the Michelin-starred restaurants of Brussels and Strasbourg.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.
I think you mean: "... The ERG nutters cynically teaming up with the Official Opposition."
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.
No, the PD is crucial. Tories cannot be trusted to keep their word, indeed several high profile ones have already threatened to reneg on the PD. Labour are right to stick out for CU and retention of workers, consumer and environmental rights, and they need to have a lock on it.
Poppycock, the PD can't be locked down. A parliament can't bind its successors, and the EU won't discuss anything substantive until we've left. The Labour position is just a cynical excuse to cause trouble, and everyone knows it.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.
I think you mean: "... The ERG nutters cynically teaming up with the Official Opposition."
That's absurd. Sure, for domestic purpose he needs to give the impression that he fought tooth and nail against perfidious Albion. But there doesn't need to be any reality to it, they just need to smoke cigars, drink cognac and exchange salacious jokes for a few hours and then emerge looking dishevelled saying what a tough negotiation it was, but they managed to stay united.
Sounds like you’ve been to one of these EU shindigs before Richard!
Luckily not, but if there's a pressing need to find candidates for the European elections, I am prepared, for the sake of the country and the party, to sacrifice my own interests to the higher good and spend a few months investing taxpayers' money in the Michelin-starred restaurants of Brussels and Strasbourg.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
Well parliament has denuded her of all authority by not coming up with anything even after 'taking control', what's she supposed to do?
Precisely. The crowing of her opponents at the fact that they have put her in an impossible position, damaged the UK economy by the unnecessary uncertainty, and made the UK look ridiculous is disgraceful.
Why was she so secretive about the deal ? Why did she think it would pass ? Was it stupidity or naivety? Why didn’t she get the DUP in the loop earlier ? Was the sign of losing so many ministers not a big frigging hint !?
Sure, but Labour aren't opposing it because they don't think it's a good deal (it's virtually indistinguishable from their proposal, inasmuch as their proposal isn't fantasy), they are opposing it for the sake of opposing it. Fair enough, you might say, but let's not pretend that the 'humiliation' is caused by anything other than Labour cynically teaming up with the ERG nutters.
That is what oppositions do! I remember Labour causing troubles on the Maastricht treaty in the 1990s because they sensed an opportunity, not because they sided with nutters. This mess over Brexit is a ERG/DUP problem. A Tory acquaintance of mine who is deeply involved in the party blames constituency associations for selecting people obsessed with Europe. There are some who use Europe to get on within the party and some whose whole belief system revolves around the 'problem' of Europe and they will obsess whether the UK is in the EU or outside it.
The most humiliating experience for a British PM in modern history. Arguably the most humiliating episode for the UK since the loss of the American colonies 236 years ago.
And do those take back controllers really think it will be different during our forthcoming negotiations?
Comments
She really got what she deserved at the end.
I must say that were I the EU I would be tempted to say that I have little faith that the WA will be voted on by Parliament and that the only real choice is either a WA approved in a referendum or Revoke or No Deal and that the extension is being given to allow time for one of these three choices to be made. This fiction about talks leading to a PD which will allow MPs to vote for a WA they have rejected three times already is just that, a fiction.
You cannot restrict a full member or their meps if they want to be difficult. The ECJ would throw them out of court
Not sure if I can manage to stay up late enough to find out tonight.
My education was mostly from the books I took out of Swiss Cottage library. Oh - and poetry books. Plus the very odd collection of novels and history books my Italian family had.
The ECJ would have no input.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/10/michael-crick-makes-surprise-exit-from-channel-4-news
They are (potentially) offering an extension voluntarily, in return for the UK voluntarily offering not to exercise some of its membership rights.
That does not prevent the UK exercising those rights - and in turn that would not prevent the 27 ending the extension (presumably at checkpoints to be agreed as part of the deal).
I’m not in favour of any of this, but I don’t see that the ECJ would prevent it.
Who knows where we go from here
Have a great nights rest everyone
New bid to oust Theresa May as MPs attempt to gather 10,000 signatures to change the Tory constitution
Where's my coat?
What we’re asking for is a temporary extension of our membership, which we have voluntarily taken steps to surrender. That has bugger all to do with our legal ability to exercise our membership rights while we are members.
#nodeal
#keepitrightwing
#watford2mancity0
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1116085382788124673?s=19
"not less than 50% of those members of the Constitutional College eligible to vote and...
not less than 66% of Members of Parliament voting; and...
not less than 66% of Members of the National Conservative Convention voting."
... so not necessarily that easy for the ERG mob to win.
As an aside, what a shame similar thresholds were not in place for the constitutional change prompted by the EU Ref!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIBVa5wkXc8