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17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK0
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Those damn pesky EU-loving newspapers... like the ummm... Financial Times and Guardian... with their err... massive... circulations...isam said:
Not to mention that the most eurosceptic party in British History, with no money and a hostile media, had just got 13% of the vote at a GE, a year after being the first non Con/Lab party to win a national election!!kle4 said:
That doesn't track for me. It's essentially saying the feelings were created by the referendum, which seems implausible. Once given the chance, people let us know what they thought. We might as well say the strong pro-EU feeling we often see now is not salient, it's just been whipped up by the ultra engaged because of the tense political situation._Anazina_ said:Richard
I think Mike was probably right - at the time. Europe wasn’t salient. What the referendum did was whip up strong feeling on both sides, that were the preserve of a few ultra engaged eurosceptics and nerdy Liberal Democrats prior to 2016.0 -
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They are fair contributors to the echo chamberrcs1000 said:
Those damn pesky EU-loving newspapers... like the ummm... Financial Times and Guardian... with their err... massive... circulations...isam said:
Not to mention that the most eurosceptic party in British History, with no money and a hostile media, had just got 13% of the vote at a GE, a year after being the first non Con/Lab party to win a national election!!kle4 said:
That doesn't track for me. It's essentially saying the feelings were created by the referendum, which seems implausible. Once given the chance, people let us know what they thought. We might as well say the strong pro-EU feeling we often see now is not salient, it's just been whipped up by the ultra engaged because of the tense political situation._Anazina_ said:Richard
I think Mike was probably right - at the time. Europe wasn’t salient. What the referendum did was whip up strong feeling on both sides, that were the preserve of a few ultra engaged eurosceptics and nerdy Liberal Democrats prior to 2016.
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The media is far more than just the dead tree press Robert as well you know.rcs1000 said:
Those damn pesky EU-loving newspapers... like the ummm... Financial Times and Guardian... with their err... massive... circulations...isam said:
Not to mention that the most eurosceptic party in British History, with no money and a hostile media, had just got 13% of the vote at a GE, a year after being the first non Con/Lab party to win a national election!!kle4 said:
That doesn't track for me. It's essentially saying the feelings were created by the referendum, which seems implausible. Once given the chance, people let us know what they thought. We might as well say the strong pro-EU feeling we often see now is not salient, it's just been whipped up by the ultra engaged because of the tense political situation._Anazina_ said:Richard
I think Mike was probably right - at the time. Europe wasn’t salient. What the referendum did was whip up strong feeling on both sides, that were the preserve of a few ultra engaged eurosceptics and nerdy Liberal Democrats prior to 2016.0 -
The remedy we could have agreed on was reform of the EU to address the democratic deficit. However that is unfortunately not going to happen because the key players like it the way it is.dixiedean said:
Yep. There are many thoughtful, obviously intelligent and polite, informed Leavers on this board. I do not, and can not accept their rationale for their vote. Not because it is stupid or unpleasant, or because I don't necessarily share their analysis of the situation that drove it.viewcode said:
This was the standout quote for me: "Not that we don’t understand each other. It’s that we do not agree and neither side wants to lose." I noted Matthew Goodwin's (and many other Leavers) contention that Remain did not listen to or misunderstood Leave. So I read his stuff. And I simply did not share his stance (although I remain an admirer of his analysis). And I assume the same is true of Leavers who have tried to understand Remainers. Even after we strip away the stupid, the malevolent, and the overprivileged, we still have points on which we disagree.ExiledInScotland said:I agree with Kle4. His point matches an interesting read on Unherd today: https://unherd.com/2019/04/brexit-isnt-a-crisis-of-listening/
"This can’t be resolved by telling a group of people who have been ignored for generations that they have, once again, to shut up and pay heed to the grown ups."
[Parenthetically, this is why I think "playing for a draw" - May's deal - is the best way forward]
Purely because we fundamentally disagree on the remedy.
Not sure how we get past that TBH.0 -
It truly is. The solution is not leaving the EU.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/11150081065539624960 -
Reform of the UK and yes, we could agree .ExiledInScotland said:
The remedy we could have agreed on was reform of the EU to address the democratic deficit. However that is unfortunately not going to happen because the key players like it the way it is.dixiedean said:
Yep. There are many thoughtful, obviously intelligent and polite, informed Leavers on this board. I do not, and can not accept their rationale for their vote. Not because it is stupid or unpleasant, or because I don't necessarily share their analysis of the situation that drove it.viewcode said:
This was the standout quote for me: "Not that we don’t understand each other. It’s that we do not agree and neither side wants to lose." I noted Matthew Goodwin's (and many other Leavers) contention that Remain did not listen to or misunderstood Leave. So I read his stuff. And I simply did not share his stance (although I remain an admirer of his analysis). And I assume the same is true of Leavers who have tried to understand Remainers. Even after we strip away the stupid, the malevolent, and the overprivileged, we still have points on which we disagree.ExiledInScotland said:I agree with Kle4. His point matches an interesting read on Unherd today: https://unherd.com/2019/04/brexit-isnt-a-crisis-of-listening/
"This can’t be resolved by telling a group of people who have been ignored for generations that they have, once again, to shut up and pay heed to the grown ups."
[Parenthetically, this is why I think "playing for a draw" - May's deal - is the best way forward]
Purely because we fundamentally disagree on the remedy.
Not sure how we get past that TBH.
It is the mote in our eye that this process has laid bare.0 -
Twitter does not represent what most people read, or the influence on most of their voters, however ; the sun and the mail do, which also set the broadcasting agenda.isam said:
They are fair contributors to the echo chamberrcs1000 said:
Those damn pesky EU-loving newspapers... like the ummm... Financial Times and Guardian... with their err... massive... circulations...isam said:
Not to mention that the most eurosceptic party in British History, with no money and a hostile media, had just got 13% of the vote at a GE, a year after being the first non Con/Lab party to win a national election!!kle4 said:
That doesn't track for me. It's essentially saying the feelings were created by the referendum, which seems implausible. Once given the chance, people let us know what they thought. We might as well say the strong pro-EU feeling we often see now is not salient, it's just been whipped up by the ultra engaged because of the tense political situation._Anazina_ said:Richard
I think Mike was probably right - at the time. Europe wasn’t salient. What the referendum did was whip up strong feeling on both sides, that were the preserve of a few ultra engaged eurosceptics and nerdy Liberal Democrats prior to 2016.0 -
http://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1115358349720203265
Do they seriously expect her to be gone before Wednesday and the summit ? A bit crazy, I would suggest.0 -
O/T
Simon Calder on Five Live just said that in 1972 you could travel on any trains in Europe for just £32 with hardly any restrictions.0 -
10/10. Would LOL again.MarqueeMark said:
About the last piece of drama Brexit hasn't had is HM the Q keeling over before royal assent is given.....IanB2 said:Point of Order from Cooper now the Bill is agreed.
Formality of Royal assent the only remaining hurdle.
Benn asks whether assent will be given tonight. Speaker hopes so, says steps are in train.
In which case motion under the Act will be taken tomorrow.0 -
Except that when you walk around the streets of the average town, everything seems to be going on pretty much as normal. I can't tell much difference from, say, 5 years ago. (Although of course there are more charity and betting shops).kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
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Will MPs also be given a free vote on whether they want a people's vote, a confirmatory Brexit referendum, a final say on the deal, a confirmatory public vote and/or just a plain old second referendum as well?williamglenn said:
The Conservatives will make it a free vote and make sure enough vote for it.rottenborough said:
I assumed they were the same thing but perhaps not? So many euphemisms no doubt polled on so many focus groups.0 -
I know, I was just teasing.Richard_Tyndall said:
The media is far more than just the dead tree press Robert as well you know.rcs1000 said:
Those damn pesky EU-loving newspapers... like the ummm... Financial Times and Guardian... with their err... massive... circulations...isam said:
Not to mention that the most eurosceptic party in British History, with no money and a hostile media, had just got 13% of the vote at a GE, a year after being the first non Con/Lab party to win a national election!!kle4 said:
That doesn't track for me. It's essentially saying the feelings were created by the referendum, which seems implausible. Once given the chance, people let us know what they thought. We might as well say the strong pro-EU feeling we often see now is not salient, it's just been whipped up by the ultra engaged because of the tense political situation._Anazina_ said:Richard
I think Mike was probably right - at the time. Europe wasn’t salient. What the referendum did was whip up strong feeling on both sides, that were the preserve of a few ultra engaged eurosceptics and nerdy Liberal Democrats prior to 2016.0 -
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/11150081065539624960 -
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/11150081065539624960 -
There will be a proposition for one of those, which of course can be amended. But getting votes for a proposition will be challenge enough so my guess is that its form will be decided as part of the discussions. Although Labour's incentive to make a deal now seems even lower now that a long extension looks increasingly likely.brendan16 said:
Will MPs also be given a free vote on whether they want a people's vote, a confirmatory Brexit referendum, a final say on the deal, a confirmatory public vote and/or just a plain old second referendum as well?williamglenn said:
The Conservatives will make it a free vote and make sure enough vote for it.rottenborough said:
I assumed they were the same thing but perhaps not? So many euphemisms no doubt polled on so many focus groups.0 -
I went behind the Iron Curtain as a student using an Interrail pass, which was valid in every E European country on every train. Yes, we needed visas, and there was compulsory currency exchange in Romania and E Germany, but as far as the train ticket is concerned he is right.viewcode said:
Um. There was this whole Warsaw Pact Berlin Wall thing...AndyJS said:O/T
Simon Calder on Five Live just said that in 1972 you could travel on any trains in Europe for just £32 with hardly any restrictions.
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Ironically one problem they have that inhibits reform is the requirement for referendums in a number of member states, the Brexit experience makes it even less likely since, as any government knows, referendums offer an easy protest opportunity regardless of the subject matter.ExiledInScotland said:
The remedy we could have agreed on was reform of the EU to address the democratic deficit. However that is unfortunately not going to happen because the key players like it the way it is.dixiedean said:
Yep. There are many thoughtful, obviously intelligent and polite, informed Leavers on this board. I do not, and can not accept their rationale for their vote. Not because it is stupid or unpleasant, or because I don't necessarily share their analysis of the situation that drove it.viewcode said:
This was the standout quote for me: "Not that we don’t understand each other. It’s that we do not agree and neither side wants to lose." I noted Matthew Goodwin's (and many other Leavers) contention that Remain did not listen to or misunderstood Leave. So I read his stuff. And I simply did not share his stance (although I remain an admirer of his analysis). And I assume the same is true of Leavers who have tried to understand Remainers. Even after we strip away the stupid, the malevolent, and the overprivileged, we still have points on which we disagree.ExiledInScotland said:I agree with Kle4. His point matches an interesting read on Unherd today: https://unherd.com/2019/04/brexit-isnt-a-crisis-of-listening/
"This can’t be resolved by telling a group of people who have been ignored for generations that they have, once again, to shut up and pay heed to the grown ups."
[Parenthetically, this is why I think "playing for a draw" - May's deal - is the best way forward]
Purely because we fundamentally disagree on the remedy.
Not sure how we get past that TBH.0 -
"Single handedly" is a bit rich. She has actually had a lot of help.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
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She wanted a short one. Cooper-Letwin surely want a long one as per Tusk. By going early the PM hoped to get to the pass first, before the Bill was done. But the Lords amendments, although giving the PM more flexibility than in the first draft, also rescue the Bill in the circumstance where an extension is already requested. As I understand it there will now be a debate on the length of the extension in Parliament today, as per the Speakers announcement last night.brendan16 said:
Wasn’t she essentially going to do what the new act requires anyway?Chris_A said:Isn't it great that "by automatic operation of law" Mrs May is mandated to ask for an extension.
The government has tried to limit the damage by providing only ninety minutes for debate, much of which may disappear in points of order and other filibustering from leavers. Nevertheless I expect there'll be some sort of vote and it will be interesting to see whether the PM concedes a longer extension before parliament has the chance to have its say.0 -
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/11150081065539624960 -
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.0 -
Hmm. Story on changes to divorce laws to
Remove the need to allege unreasonable behaviour to provide a period to allow reflection and an opportunity to turn back. I'm seeing Brexit in everything now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-478601440 -
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
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Yep but once again people are comparing apples with Robin Reliant cars...GIN1138 said:
Number of people wanting her out of her 70% Leave voting Normanton Pontefract parliamentary constituency now far greater than her majority in said constituency...isam said:
https://www.change.org/p/normanton-pontefract-and-castleford-labour-party-deselect-mp-yvette-cooper-from-our-constituency0 -
Indeed. And investment by government or industry in poorer areas would lead to fewer people working minimum wage, making the numbers appear worse.rcs1000 said:
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.
Reminds me of the UK ‘poverty’ figures that got a lot better in 2009 - not because the poor got any richer, but that the rich got poorer.
Lies, damn lies and....0 -
Still sucks to be one of them, though.rcs1000 said:
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.
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For all her manifold failings, replacing May wouldn’t even begin to be a solution to the problem.WhisperingOracle said:http://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1115358349720203265
Do they seriously expect her to be gone before Wednesday and the summit ? A bit crazy, I would suggest.
Except for those Tories determined to pursue No Deal.
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Wot - no pb.com???isam said:
They are fair contributors to the echo chamberrcs1000 said:
Those damn pesky EU-loving newspapers... like the ummm... Financial Times and Guardian... with their err... massive... circulations...isam said:
Not to mention that the most eurosceptic party in British History, with no money and a hostile media, had just got 13% of the vote at a GE, a year after being the first non Con/Lab party to win a national election!!kle4 said:
That doesn't track for me. It's essentially saying the feelings were created by the referendum, which seems implausible. Once given the chance, people let us know what they thought. We might as well say the strong pro-EU feeling we often see now is not salient, it's just been whipped up by the ultra engaged because of the tense political situation._Anazina_ said:Richard
I think Mike was probably right - at the time. Europe wasn’t salient. What the referendum did was whip up strong feeling on both sides, that were the preserve of a few ultra engaged eurosceptics and nerdy Liberal Democrats prior to 2016.0 -
She has merely prevented No Deal, her bill respects the referendum. Yvette is a star.isam said:0 -
That's about right IF you were a student. It was for a month only, and I did just that in 1976 it was £60 then. Still a bargain. I think it was called an Interrail passAndyJS said:O/T
Simon Calder on Five Live just said that in 1972 you could travel on any trains in Europe for just £32 with hardly any restrictions.0 -
OK the referendum result is one thing - I can see the argument that it is undemocratic not to actually carry out leaving the EU, although there are also valid arguments on the other side.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
But things Theresa May said? Just another example of a politician being unable or unwilling to carry out promises, seen plenty of that from all sides my whole life.
Like I said: on the same page of the 2015 Conservative manifesto where Dave promised an in-out referendum, he also promised to safeguard Britain's place in the Single Market. So the way to honour the referendum result in the spirit in which the referendum was promised would be to leave the EU but stay in the Single Market. But I wouldn't say not saying in the Single Market would single-handedly destroy all faith in democracy etc
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And? You couldn’t fly anywhere cheaply or efficiently, to drive around London took you the term of your natural life, seatbelts and wing mirrors were optional extras in cars and, going by pictures of London, everything (and everybody) was dirty and tired. 47 years ago. The same gap as between 1939 and 1986. I presume Simon Calder was young.AndyJS said:O/T
Simon Calder on Five Live just said that in 1972 you could travel on any trains in Europe for just £32 with hardly any restrictions.0 -
Kind of a weird vibe right now where everybody feels like brexit is going away, but nobody's told the currency markets, so if I want to sell pounds to pay my amazing Japanese builder I can still only get 145 yens each for them.0
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I know. Super glad I left Wall StreetNigelb said:
Still sucks to be one of them, though.rcs1000 said:
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.0 -
The starting point will be, I’m certain, Wall Street is a synonym for publicly listed financial institution. So when BoA gives a bonus to all employees throughout the US, that will be Wall Street. Sort of true, no doubt, but utterly misleading,rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/11150081065539624960 -
So there's money to be made on either the betting or the currency markets. We just need to work out which.edmundintokyo said:Kind of a weird vibe right now where everybody feels like brexit is going away, but nobody's told the currency markets, so if I want to sell pounds to pay my amazing Japanese builder I can still only get 145 yens each for them.
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I guess part of it is that there's still a non-zero risk of No Deal, and the downside of No Deal is quite a bit bigger than the upside of Revoke or Gimp Remain, even if the probability is lower.IanB2 said:
So there's money to be made on either the betting or the currency markets. We just need to work out which.edmundintokyo said:Kind of a weird vibe right now where everybody feels like brexit is going away, but nobody's told the currency markets, so if I want to sell pounds to pay my amazing Japanese builder I can still only get 145 yens each for them.
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And today even adults can get them. I have one ready to use, first class rail travel, anywhere in Europe for any five days over a month, £251.SquareRoot said:
That's about right IF you were a student. It was for a month only, and I did just that in 1976 it was £60 then. Still a bargain. I think it was called an Interrail passAndyJS said:O/T
Simon Calder on Five Live just said that in 1972 you could travel on any trains in Europe for just £32 with hardly any restrictions.0 -
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But isn't this partly because tipped workers - which is a lot of people in the US - are excluded and can be paid as low as $2-$3 per hour?rcs1000 said:
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.0 -
Nothing like selling the compromise option!edmundintokyo said:
I guess part of it is that there's still a non-zero risk of No Deal, and the downside of No Deal is quite a bit bigger than the upside of Revoke or Gimp Remain, even if the probability is lower.IanB2 said:
So there's money to be made on either the betting or the currency markets. We just need to work out which.edmundintokyo said:Kind of a weird vibe right now where everybody feels like brexit is going away, but nobody's told the currency markets, so if I want to sell pounds to pay my amazing Japanese builder I can still only get 145 yens each for them.
I think there is sterling upside on the currency markets. Which were doing well until the third rejection of May's deal.0 -
Think they might need two parallel party election broadcasts, one for the leave with dealers and one for the no dealers...Benpointer said:Looking forward to seeing what's in the Tory EU election manifesto
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And there’s probably also some distortion of the comparatively small betting markets, by those hedging against movements in the currency markets.IanB2 said:
So there's money to be made on either the betting or the currency markets. We just need to work out which.edmundintokyo said:Kind of a weird vibe right now where everybody feels like brexit is going away, but nobody's told the currency markets, so if I want to sell pounds to pay my amazing Japanese builder I can still only get 145 yens each for them.
Me? I get paid in USD and have a mortgage in GBP, so a drop in the pound works for me. Probably not for most on this board though, unless they work abroad or in domestic tourism.0 -
This is the source I think: https://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/mar19/032619.htmmatt said:
The starting point will be, I’m certain, Wall Street is a synonym for publicly listed financial institution. So when BoA gives a bonus to all employees throughout the US, that will be Wall Street. Sort of true, no doubt, but utterly misleading,rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
It's just New York and it's based on the securities industry.
The average bonus is estimated to be $153,700.0 -
Just a coincidence that you've been arguing for no deal, then? Kind of us to take such a risk on your behalf. At least until the PM was told she could lose Northern Ireland.Sandpit said:
And there’s probably also some distortion of the comparatively small betting markets, by those hedging against movements in the currency markets.IanB2 said:
So there's money to be made on either the betting or the currency markets. We just need to work out which.edmundintokyo said:Kind of a weird vibe right now where everybody feels like brexit is going away, but nobody's told the currency markets, so if I want to sell pounds to pay my amazing Japanese builder I can still only get 145 yens each for them.
Me? I get paid in USD and have a mortgage in GBP, so a drop in the pound works for me. Probably not for most on this board though, unless they work abroad or in domestic tourism.0 -
Do you have to use it outside the UK - that’s cheaper than a second class return to London for me..IanB2 said:
And today even adults can get them. I have one ready to use, first class rail travel, anywhere in Europe for any five days over a month, £251.SquareRoot said:
That's about right IF you were a student. It was for a month only, and I did just that in 1976 it was £60 then. Still a bargain. I think it was called an Interrail passAndyJS said:O/T
Simon Calder on Five Live just said that in 1972 you could travel on any trains in Europe for just £32 with hardly any restrictions.0 -
Yup, although there's also an effect in the opposite direction where the pounds that you get if you win a bet on No Deal are less valuable than the pounds you get with Deal/Revoke/Gimp Remain.Sandpit said:
And there’s probably also some distortion of the comparatively small betting markets, by those hedging against movements in the currency markets.0 -
There's a "three days in a month" ticket that is even cheaper. My price is a non refundable special offer that they do every spring and autumn, it's the normal second class price.eek said:
Do you have to use it outside the UK - that’s cheaper than a second class return to London for me..IanB2 said:
And today even adults can get them. I have one ready to use, first class rail travel, anywhere in Europe for any five days over a month, £251.SquareRoot said:
That's about right IF you were a student. It was for a month only, and I did just that in 1976 it was £60 then. Still a bargain. I think it was called an Interrail passAndyJS said:O/T
Simon Calder on Five Live just said that in 1972 you could travel on any trains in Europe for just £32 with hardly any restrictions.
You can use two of the days for your first and last journey (from and to home) - which has to be home to an exit point or vice versa (otherwise it has to be outside the uk) Given that it's only a piece of paper that you write your trip on, you could easily use the ticket for an outward journey by pretending to be going to Dover. On your return the absence of foreign trips might look a bit odd - but I guess you could just make some up. There's a space alongside each leg where European ticket controllers usually put some kind of stamp or mark, but sometimes they don't, and I can't imagine the absence of such stamps would be challenged in the UK.
Because they sell in odd numbers of days I usually use the last day to cover my trip home, and waving the pass at the ticket inspector always seems to work; usually they don't even look at it.0 -
"Donald Trump, Steve Bannon, Mogg and Farage" four very good reasons for voting for somebody, anybody, else.Scott_P said:0 -
@Nigelb I had seen that, and thought it was very funny. However, given that he is almost as useless, pig-ignorant and unpleasant as Amanda Spielmann (which is saying quite something) I would say that if he is sacked it would be a definite plus of Brexit.
@Dixiedean anyone who has ever read an OFSTED report will know that is typical. Among my favourites are the time they threatened a school with special measures because 'an inadequate number of children do not make sufficient progress at GCSE' and the time they muddled up safeguarding and health and safety.0 -
Ooh, that’s a good point yes. I lost a little on the Leave On Time market, haven’t been playing any of the current ones though. Too much uncertainty!!edmundintokyo said:
Yup, although there's also an effect in the opposite direction where the pounds that you get if you win a bet on No Deal are less valuable than the pounds you get with Deal/Revoke/Gimp Remain.Sandpit said:
And there’s probably also some distortion of the comparatively small betting markets, by those hedging against movements in the currency markets.0 -
New Thread
A rare thread based on a spoof story0 -
This thread is now in Flextension
Aww, my first goes down the pan.0 -
Still highlights the problems of the greedy elite ivy league barstewards that a handful of no-users get paid 3 times what 600K people do. Exactly like the UK and explains Brexit and the mess we see here as well.rcs1000 said:
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.0 -
The post that has just gone up on Boris has been deleted.0
-
Another Boris campaign that quickly crumples.MikeSmithson said:The post that has just gone up on Boris has been deleted.
0 -
Nah, my ex-parrot supporting friend, it's still there for all time for all to see:IanB2 said:This thread is now in Flextension
Aww, my first goes down the pan.
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2280675/#Comment_2280675
The first that wasn't allowed to come to full fruition because the premise was based on a lie.
We shall call it...0 -
But enough about me, lets talk about you.malcolmg said:
Still highlights the problems of the greedy elite ivy league barstewards that a handful of no-users get paid 3 times what 600K people do. Exactly like the UK and explains Brexit and the mess we see here as well.rcs1000 said:
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.0 -
How about this one:malcolmg said:
Still highlights the problems of the greedy elite ivy league barstewards that a handful of no-users get paid 3 times what 600K people do. Exactly like the UK and explains Brexit and the mess we see here as well.rcs1000 said:
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.
Lloyd's of London calls time on drink and drugs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-478580130 -
Are you still in Hamelin, Malc?malcolmg said:
Still highlights the problems of the greedy elite ivy league barstewards that a handful of no-users get paid 3 times what 600K people do. Exactly like the UK and explains Brexit and the mess we see here as well.rcs1000 said:
We can work it out :-)Sandpit said:
Yes. I suspect that the number working full time at the federal minimum wage is a lot smaller than would be expected. Maybe even single figures millions.williamglenn said:
The majority of states have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum. It's a stat designed to sound more staggering than it is.rcs1000 said:
I would be interested to know the source for that factoid.rottenborough said:Wow. This is a truly staggering stat:
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1115008106553962496
The Federal minimum wage is $7.50/hour. Keeping it simple, that makes it $15,000/year.
Now, all the federal minimum workers (together) get to one third of $27.5bn, or $9bn to keep things simple.
So let's divide $9bn by $15,000.
And we get to 600,000.
So not even single digit millions.
Which doesn't make it seem like such an incredible number after all.0 -
No it doesn't.ydoethur said:
She is not obligated to vote for any Brexit, just one that meets the criteria of her 2017 manifesto including CU and workers protections. It is an entirely consistent position, which is why Labour discipline on this has been so strong.0 -
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.0 -
You might have a point, had the opposition had any input into, or even consultation on the WA. They didn’t. Though granted there are reasons for that, usually beginning with a C.ydoethur said:
Had I the misfortune to be in parliament, I might, probably would have voted for the WA myself, but for a member of the opposition not to do so is hardly a negation of democracy.
0 -
So your only answer to a serious question is whataboutery not even grounded in reality.kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
0 -
-
Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.0
-
Mr b,
"Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country,"
If the Scots vote for independence by 52 to 48, will you explain that to them?
0 -
You’re just a sore winner.kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.0 -
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.0 -
That surely is just evidence that there wasn't room in Dave's Tiny Brain for the idea that the Referendum might actually be lost....kamski said:
Like I said: on the same page of the 2015 Conservative manifesto where Dave promised an in-out referendum, he also promised to safeguard Britain's place in the Single Market. So the way to honour the referendum result in the spirit in which the referendum was promised would be to leave the EU but stay in the Single Market. But I wouldn't say not saying in the Single Market would single-handedly destroy all faith in democracy etc0 -
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?SouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
0 -
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.SouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
0 -
Despite being a silly point it is also a wrong one - the endless tussles our government has had with the EU ever since our joining illustrate that the concerns of "leavers" have had a lot of attention. Rebates, opt outs, and the rest. Far too much attention, given the damage it has done and is doing to our country and its reputation in the world.kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.0 -
Given that it has helped determine the entire negotiating stance of the EU, probably not a bad idea to take some note of it.TheKitchenCabinet said:
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?SouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
0 -
I’m saying that our vote has dumped all over the people of Northern Ireland and made a United Ireland much more likely. The Northern Irish people are undoubtedly held in much lower regard in the UK than the Irish are in the EU.TheKitchenCabinet said:
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?SouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
0 -
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving reallySouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
0 -
I assume you would answer in the negative.TheKitchenCabinet said:
Are you therefore saying that the entire UK should have based their choice on Brexit on the issue of Northern Ireland alone?SouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
If that question referred to, say Yorkshire, how would you answer?0 -
If you want a settled Brexit, then yes, it is.isam said:
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
The implementation of Brexit has been clearly demonstrated not to be a binary choice - as many of those who voted leave have been telling you on here.
“It’s my turn to be unfair” is not a persuasive argument to those who disagree with you.0 -
Mr b,
"So your only answer to a serious question is whataboutery not even grounded in reality."
How about Scottish independence? Is that whataboutery?
Mr w,
If I had to explain the Brexit vote and the reaction to it in one word, it would be "Arrogance."
Some Remainers persist in thinking they are special people. Their judgement is superior to the common herd. How dare the thick and ignorant win a referendum. It must be stopped at all costs and by all means. That attitude will keep the sore open.0 -
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....isam said:
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving reallySouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
0 -
Ah, so Tory manifestos are inviolate only when you agree with them?MarqueeMark said:
That surely is just evidence that there wasn't room in Dave's Tiny Brain for the idea that the Referendum might actually be lost....kamski said:
Like I said: on the same page of the 2015 Conservative manifesto where Dave promised an in-out referendum, he also promised to safeguard Britain's place in the Single Market. So the way to honour the referendum result in the spirit in which the referendum was promised would be to leave the EU but stay in the Single Market. But I wouldn't say not saying in the Single Market would single-handedly destroy all faith in democracy etc0 -
How am I personally being unfair?! It’s nothing to do with me how Brexit is or isn’t implemented!Nigelb said:
If you want a settled Brexit, then yes, it is.isam said:
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
The implementation of Brexit has been clearly demonstrated not to be a binary choice - as many of those who voted leave have been telling you on here.
“It’s my turn to be unfair” is not a persuasive argument to those who disagree with you.
I’m just pointing out how things were when the boot was on the other foot, although I would like to hear what concessions would be made to the leave 48% had the result been reversed, or let’s say ‘what concessions will be made if a 2nd ref is 52-48 Remain?’0 -
Are you saying the uk should have rolled over and just ceded all our sovereignty to Brussels and not asked for a rebate in an unfair system that benefited France and Germany more than us ? That’s the problem with you remainers you put the EU interest before the national interestIanB2 said:
Despite being a silly point it is also a wrong one - the endless tussles our government has had with the EU ever since our joining illustrate that the concerns of "leavers" have had a lot of attention. Rebates, opt outs, and the rest. Far too much attention, given the damage it has done and is doing to our country and its reputation in the world.kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.0 -
For some reason I'm thinking of that scene where James Bond is tied to that table with the slowly progressing laser gun.SouthamObserver said:0 -
How many times did that happen? Apart from occasions when a Tory MP became a kipper and re-fought his seat?isam said:
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
And, yes, course, there was Clacton!0 -
eek said:
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....isam said:
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving reallySouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
You would think the Irish didn’t get a vote on it the way they are portrayed as victims of English selfishness. They did, and almost half of them were so nonplussed about the border issue they voted Leaveeek said:
Not really - it's the sod you vote caused by austerity / immigration.....isam said:
Strange to think that 44% of Irish voters backed leaving reallySouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
0 -
If that were the case, and the winning side behaved like the Brexiteers, it would be an equal mess.CD13 said:Mr b,
"Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country,"
If the Scots vote for independence by 52 to 48, will you explain that to them?
To re-iterate the point, as you don’t seem to have taken it on board, the referendum vote was for leaving the EU. That could mean Norway every bit as much as WTO, and the former would probably have been accomplished by now without a tenth of the trouble.
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You read about people, goods and services moving freely across the border in Ireland, but then you see it - and all the back road memorials to dead IRA and INLA men killed on what’s termed “active service” - and it really hits home how much things have changed.Roger said:
Listening to two businessmen this morning on radio 5 discussing the intractable problems Brexit has created had the same effect.SouthamObserver said:Greetings from Carlingford in the Republic of Ireland, just across the Loughborough from the North. Yesterday I crossed the border on big roads and small at least half a dozen times. You only have to spend a little bit of time here to realise just how little we mainland Brits know about Ireland - or what Brexit will do to it. We’re almost entirely ignorant of the consequences of what was voted for.
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What concessions would have satisfied you and how would they have been delivered?isam said:
How am I personally being unfair?! It’s nothing to do with me how Brexit is or isn’t implemented!Nigelb said:
If you want a settled Brexit, then yes, it is.isam said:
When the kippers were coming 2nd in by elections circa 2013-14, rather than accept there was a growing eurosceptic vote we were dismissively told it meant nothing in a FPTP contest. Now Leave wins a binary referendum and it’s all about ‘reaching out to the loser’kjohnw said:
When we joined did they consider those who voted no? Had remain won in 2016 would leavers concerns have been addressed? I doubt itNigelb said:
Why is is such a shock to you that compromise might be necessary to achieve Brexit, when just under half the electorate (and quite possibly more than that now) opposed it from the start.kjohnw said:17.4 million of us voted to leave in a referendum Dave said would be final, brexit means brexit says Theresa, we will be leaving the Customs union and single market she says , No deal is better than a bad deal she says, lies all lies , now it’s customs union , regulatory alignment, second referendum, indefinite extension. She has single handily destroyed all faith in democracy and parliament to enact the peoples instruction. We are a divided and ruined nation , RIP UK
In case you hadn’t noticed, we have a hung parliament, elected since the referendum.
What makes you think that you have any entitlement to anything other than the bare legal fact of leaving the EU - which is the only question which was on the referendum ballot ?
The country is indeed divided, so compromise is necessary. That is democracy.
Insisting on your way, in the teeth of half the country, without any mandate, is profoundly anti democratic.
The implementation of Brexit has been clearly demonstrated not to be a binary choice - as many of those who voted leave have been telling you on here.
“It’s my turn to be unfair” is not a persuasive argument to those who disagree with you.
I’m just pointing out how things were when the boot was on the other foot, although I would like to hear what concessions would be made to the leave 48% had the result been reversed, or let’s say ‘what concessions will be made if a 2nd ref is 52-48 Remain?’0
