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The numbers don't matter. The optics do. Brexit was defeated by Brexiters. As remainers will continually point out.RobD said:
I forget the numbers, would it have passed on the third attempt had they all voted for it?_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
It is hardly proportionate to punish 60m odd people for the sins of 650, though.Charles said:
It’s not my “current” position, it’s been my position since a second referendum was mooted.AlastairMeeks said:
Your current position seems to be that you accept that the last referendum was supported by people whose vision of Brexit will not come to pass but that they are not allowed to change their mind in the light of new information in a new referendum.Charles said:
Agreed.Benpointer said:
And the government has arranged for the UK to Leave. Unfortunately the people's representatives, elected more recently than the referendum, do not support the government's proposals. Worse than that, the lack of support includes many Leave MPs.Charles said:FPT @JosiasJessop
I think we are going to differ on the referendum
In my view there was a simple question on the ballot: leave or remain.
That is the question that was asked and answered
Of course different people had different visions for the future and voters chose how to case their votes based on their own motivations
The only hard fact that we have is that the voters instructed the government to arrange for the U.K. to leave. The precise details and timing are a political choice for them to make and reap the rewards / pay the price
The only answer is to ask the people to tell parliament to implement May's Deal... or to not implement it, as the people wish.
I’m not a fan of deal / no deal as a referendum because it’s the result of obstruction by politicians but if it has to be that way then so be it
Parliament has behaved badly. You should not reward bad behaviour.0 -
Let's add household too:rcs1000 said:
Really?brendan16 said:
Ireland hasn't been pushed around by the UK for sometime - as its been a semi automomous province of the ECB since 2008. It has the highest debt per capita of any eurozone member following the bank bailouts in 2010 - future generations may well pay a heavy price for their efforts to save the Euro.anothernick said:
Indeed. One of the many ironies of Brexit is that it has enabled Ireland, which has been bullied and generally pushed around by the British for centuries, to gain the upper hand with the support of the EU.Recidivist said:
As long as course as it is able to offer low corporation tax rates to keep the US multinationals there it can easily service the debt. But that of course may not continue for ever.
Would you like some facts with that:
https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/government-debt-to-gdp
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/HH_LS@GDD/CAN/GBR/USA/DEU/ITA/FRA/JPN/IRL0 -
Indeed.Charles said:
The electorate gave no instruction on “How” - zip, nada, nothing.JosiasJessop said:
It was a simple question on this topic, but it was backed up with a heck of a lot of other ancillary information. For instance, in that question, 'remain' meant on the terms of Cameron's deal. Because Cameron and his team had done the work to define what it meant.Charles said:FPT @JosiasJessop
I think we are going to differ on the referendum
In my view there was a simple question on the ballot: leave or remain.
That is the question that was asked and answered
Of course different people had different visions for the future and voters chose how to case their votes based on their own motivations
The only hard fact that we have is that the voters instructed the government to arrange for the U.K. to leave. The precise details and timing are a political choice for them to make and reap the rewards / pay the price
There was no such ancillary information on what leave meant, just a whole load of wish-lists from various people, several large items of which were incompatible and inconsistent.
Which is why we're in this mess.
Lots of people got up on their hind legs and presented a vision for the future. Some attractive, some less so.
But all the electorate opined on was “What”.
It’s up to the executive to determine “How”
If you look at the major strategic problems of recent years - Syria or Brexit for example - they are down to Parliament intervening where they are not competent to act and ballsing it up.0 -
This type of protest only ever lasts for one day.Scott_P said:0 -
It should have passed on the first vote if ERG had any form of common sense but that is not one of their traits.RobD said:
I forget the numbers, would it have passed on the third attempt had they all voted for it?_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
Agreed, they are fools. What did Tusk say about that special place in hell?Recidivist said:
The numbers don't matter. The optics do. Brexit was defeated by Brexiters. As remainers will continually point out.RobD said:
I forget the numbers, would it have passed on the third attempt had they all voted for it?_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
That really is the absolute truth and they may well never see brexit again_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
Also worth commenting there are 17 Independent candidates, 16 of whom form the Farnham residents who are fighting all the eight Farnham Wards while there is a strong Independent challenge in the Haslemere by-election for Surrey CC in the shape of the former County Councillor who took the seat from the Conservatives in 2013.Sean_F said:
Waverley is an example of what I commented on upthread.
The Conservatives have fielded a full slate of 57 candidates, the Lib Dems have fielded 27, Labour 19. 2 Conservatives have been returned unopposed.
This is a council the Lib Dems controlled at various points between 1991 and 2007.
It's hard from the current position of holding 50 of the 57 seats to see the Conservatives losing control of Waverley but I suspect they will see their majority reduced significantly.0 -
I will be seeing a group of friends this weekend who I haven't seen since last November. I am really hoping none of them remember me saying that May's deal was the best we were likely to get and we should hope it goes through because if it doesn't we will likely get something worse.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That really is the absolute truth and they may well never see brexit again_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
Hopefully, they will. One party councils are good for no one.stodge said:
Also worth commenting there are 17 Independent candidates, 16 of whom form the Farnham residents who are fighting all the eight Farnham Wards while there is a strong Independent challenge in the Haslemere by-election for Surrey CC in the shape of the former County Councillor who took the seat from the Conservatives in 2013.Sean_F said:
Waverley is an example of what I commented on upthread.
The Conservatives have fielded a full slate of 57 candidates, the Lib Dems have fielded 27, Labour 19. 2 Conservatives have been returned unopposed.
This is a council the Lib Dems controlled at various points between 1991 and 2007.
It's hard from the current position of holding 50 of the 57 seats to see the Conservatives losing control of Waverley but I suspect they will see their majority reduced significantly.0 -
Or no brexitRecidivist said:
I will be seeing a group of friends this weekend who I haven't seen since last November. I am really hoping none of them remember me saying that May's deal was the best we were likely to get and we should hope it goes through because if it doesn't we will likely get something worse.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That really is the absolute truth and they may well never see brexit again_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
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On the evening when the deal was first released and Boris Johnson was immediately denouncing it on all channels, it's difficult to believe that he wasn't aware he was sabotaging Brexit. I think he's one of the people Peter Oborne refers to who are still under the Brexit banner but realise it is a profound mistake._Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
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Mr. Glenn, I'm not sure I agree with your timeline.
The Boris regret began the moment he learnt Leave had won. He got a result he never wanted and it ended up scuppering his (then, at least...) leadership prospects. He failed to win his prize, and achieved only the thing he didn't want.
Boris is an idiot, and unworthy to sit in Cabinet.0 -
For him, Brexit is secondary to his desire to become Conservative leader. He hopes to gain the support of the hardliners.williamglenn said:
On the evening when the deal was first released and Boris Johnson was immediately denouncing it on all channels, it's difficult to believe that he wasn't aware he was sabotaging Brexit. I think he's one of the people Peter Oborne refers to who are still under the Brexit banner but realise it is a profound mistake._Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
MV3 vote failed by 58 votes, so she needed to flip 29 to pass it. 35 Tories voted against. If the ERG had flipped it would have had a majority of 2.RobD said:
I forget the numbers, would it have passed on the third attempt had they all voted for it?_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
I very much doubt whether it is a real proposal.TheWhiteRabbit said:0 -
I refused to back my leader and scuppered any hope of a deal. How dare she work with someone so horrible for what she thinks is the good of the country? Even though I did the same thing by voting with him so many times.Scott_P said:0 -
I am fascinated by the emergence of these well-organised well-funded Independent groupings in areas like Farnham, Guildford and Oxted which, as you say, are traditionally Conservative and flirted with the LDs in the 90s and 00s.Sean_F said:<
Hopefully, they will. One party councils are good for no one.
They are different from the traditional "Residents" in areas like Hersham and Epsom and have utilised newer campaigning techniques.
I'd love to see this spread into London - if we are ever to break the Labour stranglehold in Newham, it won't be through the Conservatives but a "local" group. However, in an area like Newham with such a transient population, such a group is very hard to establish.0 -
It's like people paying a fine in pennies in protest at some fine.TheWhiteRabbit said:0 -
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Were they all ERGers?rcs1000 said:
MV3 vote failed by 58 votes, so she needed to flip 29 to pass it. 35 Tories voted against. If the ERG had flipped it would have had a majority of 2.RobD said:
I forget the numbers, would it have passed on the third attempt had they all voted for it?_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
Newham used to elect lots of Residents, before it became a Labour one-party State.stodge said:
I am fascinated by the emergence of these well-organised well-funded Independent groupings in areas like Farnham, Guildford and Oxted which, as you say, are traditionally Conservative and flirted with the LDs in the 90s and 00s.Sean_F said:<
Hopefully, they will. One party councils are good for no one.
They are different from the traditional "Residents" in areas like Hersham and Epsom and have utilised newer campaigning techniques.
I'd love to see this spread into London - if we are ever to break the Labour stranglehold in Newham, it won't be through the Conservatives but a "local" group. However, in an area like Newham with such a transient population, such a group is very hard to establish.0 -
He wants to be a great man of history, so for Brexit to turn into a heroic failure that doesn't happen is preferable to having his name associated with the mediocre reality of a negotiated deal.Sean_F said:
For him, Brexit is secondary to his desire to become Conservative leader. He hopes to gain the support of the hardliners.williamglenn said:
On the evening when the deal was first released and Boris Johnson was immediately denouncing it on all channels, it's difficult to believe that he wasn't aware he was sabotaging Brexit. I think he's one of the people Peter Oborne refers to who are still under the Brexit banner but realise it is a profound mistake._Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
For all the rightly caustic commentary on Mark Francois, could I posit the theory that he's marginally less of a prick than Andrew Bridgen?
How do fellow PBers feel the battle of Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber shapes up?
https://twitter.com/GeneralBoles/status/11152422324733665280 -
Isn't the realty rather different from that? Many leftists were against Britain's participation in World War Two during 1939 and 1940, until Germany declared war on Russia. In particular, one book I read related to aircraft production, said there were trouble with some unions in plants before Barbarossa, and the troubles melted away afterwards ...Scott_P said:
"Until 1941 when the Soviet Union entered the war, communists in Britain, having little commitment to the war effort, refused to be bound by the national unity consensus and in particular the ban on strike action. During the first few months of the war, there were over 900 strikes, almost all of them very short but illegal nonetheless."
http://www.unionhistory.info/timeline/1939_1945.php0 -
Three of the greatest minds of their generation.Scott_P said:0 -
It's like trying to work out whether Himmler was worse than Ribbentrop.Harris_Tweed said:For all the rightly caustic commentary on Mark Francois, could I posit the theory that he's marginally less of a prick than Andrew Bridgen?
How do fellow PBers feel the battle of Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber shapes up?
https://twitter.com/GeneralBoles/status/11152422324733665280 -
Ranking the ERG in order of stupidity is tricky because the numbers are so huge. When you get that close to infinity the maths breaks down somewhat...Harris_Tweed said:For all the rightly caustic commentary on Mark Francois, could I posit the theory that he's marginally less of a prick than Andrew Bridgen?
How do fellow PBers feel the battle of Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber shapes up?0 -
No, there were the Grievers as well. So it would have been very close if the ERG had all folded. The idea more Lab would have come over if it was close is for the birds, some of the possible are revokers rather than supportive of any deal.RobD said:
Were they all ERGers?rcs1000 said:
MV3 vote failed by 58 votes, so she needed to flip 29 to pass it. 35 Tories voted against. If the ERG had flipped it would have had a majority of 2.RobD said:
I forget the numbers, would it have passed on the third attempt had they all voted for it?_Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
Is that why Francois is hiding behind a bush?Scott_P said:0 -
The Francois letter - it reads like the type of email you type to get it out of your system but never send and subsequently delete. Anybody sending that type of letter is more than a little unprofessional. Actually going so far as to publish it is the work of a weapons grade moron.0
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People buy it too. They think if Boris or similar had run things itd all be swell.williamglenn said:
He wants to be a great man of history, so for Brexit to turn into a heroic failure that doesn't happen is preferable to having his name associated with the mediocre reality of a negotiated deal.Sean_F said:
For him, Brexit is secondary to his desire to become Conservative leader. He hopes to gain the support of the hardliners.williamglenn said:
On the evening when the deal was first released and Boris Johnson was immediately denouncing it on all channels, it's difficult to believe that he wasn't aware he was sabotaging Brexit. I think he's one of the people Peter Oborne refers to who are still under the Brexit banner but realise it is a profound mistake._Anazina_ said:
The only people who have sabotaged Brexit are the quarterwits from the ERG and their twerpish associates who thrice had the opportunity to vote for the Brexit deal and thrice declined to do so. There is not a great deal Remainers can do if Leavers keep voting down their own policy.GIN1138 said:
Tory Remainers and Labour Remainers having a discussion between themselves to work out how they can sabotage Brexit...Scott_P said:0 -
Harris_Tweed said:
For all the rightly caustic commentary on Mark Francois, could I posit the theory that he's marginally less of a prick than Andrew Bridgen?
It's a tough call. Probably safe to file both under the turbo-muppet category.
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True of course but by the end of the war people were waving hammer and sickle flags. I seem to recall them on the wall at the Victory Party in our local hall.JosiasJessop said:
Isn't the realty rather different from that? Many leftists were against Britain's participation in World War Two during 1939 and 1940, until Germany declared war on Russia. In particular, one book I read related to aircraft production, said there were trouble with some unions in plants before Barbarossa, and the troubles melted away afterwards ...Scott_P said:
"Until 1941 when the Soviet Union entered the war, communists in Britain, having little commitment to the war effort, refused to be bound by the national unity consensus and in particular the ban on strike action. During the first few months of the war, there were over 900 strikes, almost all of them very short but illegal nonetheless."
http://www.unionhistory.info/timeline/1939_1945.php
And, because I was only about 7, asking why they were like they were.0 -
Without wishing to be unkind I used to think many of the ERG were just incredibly stubborn and holding a different and principled view even though I disagreed with it. But when those who did eventually cave did so on the basis that Brexit was at risk if they did not, something obvious for months and which had been screamed at them for just as long, made me worry that even some of the seemingly smarter ones were anything but, if they had only just realised what would happen if it failed again.Scott_P said:
Ranking the ERG in order of stupidity is tricky because the numbers are so huge. When you get that close to infinity the maths breaks down somewhat...Harris_Tweed said:For all the rightly caustic commentary on Mark Francois, could I posit the theory that he's marginally less of a prick than Andrew Bridgen?
How do fellow PBers feel the battle of Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber shapes up?
And they are indeed among the angriest again that Brexit might be super soft or over.0 -
There was no clear Remain prospectus. Yes, Cameron’s deal was on the table but it was presented as a Leave-lite Eurosceptic option.viewcode said:
Indeed.Charles said:
The electorate gave no instruction on “How” - zip, nada, nothing.JosiasJessop said:
It was a simple question on this topic, but it was backed up with a heck of a lot of other ancillary information. For instance, in that question, 'remain' meant on the terms of Cameron's deal. Because Cameron and his team had done the work to define what it meant.Charles said:FPT @JosiasJessop
I think we are going to differ on the referendum
In my view there was a simple question on the ballot: leave or remain.
That is the question that was asked and answered
Of course different people had different visions for the future and voters chose how to case their votes based on their own motivations
The only hard fact that we have is that the voters instructed the government to arrange for the U.K. to leave. The precise details and timing are a political choice for them to make and reap the rewards / pay the price
There was no such ancillary information on what leave meant, just a whole load of wish-lists from various people, several large items of which were incompatible and inconsistent.
Which is why we're in this mess.
Lots of people got up on their hind legs and presented a vision for the future. Some attractive, some less so.
But all the electorate opined on was “What”.
It’s up to the executive to determine “How”
If you look at the major strategic problems of recent years - Syria or Brexit for example - they are down to Parliament intervening where they are not competent to act and ballsing it up.
Remain singularly failed to offer a positive vision of the EU, or to explain to sceptics like me what remaining meant in terms of ever closer political union, EU army, tax code, etc etc.
To say that only Leave failed to clearly define the endpoint is disingenuous at best.
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Spot on. The objective is to attain the highest elected office of a great nation without doing hardly any work apart from lying and bullshitting. Not easy, but Donald Trump has proved that it can be done.williamglenn said:He wants to be a great man of history, so for Brexit to turn into a heroic failure that doesn't happen is preferable to having his name associated with the mediocre reality of a negotiated deal.
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A post that it is quite impossible not to respond to.Harris_Tweed said:For all the rightly caustic commentary on Mark Francois, could I posit the theory that he's marginally less of a prick than Andrew Bridgen?
Francois, for me, is the lesser prick. He can appear sweet at times. Bridgen, never so.
Applying the 'down the pub' test, neither, but if I walked in and Mark Francois was at one table, Andrew Bridgen at another, and both were beckoning me, and I simply had to sit down and there was nowhere else, I would join Mark.0 -
Poignant if so. Imagine losing the love of your life because of something that is almost completely your fault. Many a book will be written. Many a film will be made.Big_G_NorthWales said:That really is the absolute truth and they may well never see brexit again
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That is a hell of a howl. And it's in the bag. Thus far most of the howls from the Leave side are of the promised variety. They need to get howling in earnest and pronto, otherwise unwanted conclusions will be drawn.DayTripper said:...by which standard, 6 million signing a petition to revoke is equally a howl of rage. A much bigger one.
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rabbit rabbit rabbit rabbit-1
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