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My favourite Leaverloon is Owen Patterson. So amiable. So vacuous. So stubborn. It's a remarkable mix.Nigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
On TV recently:
"I'm not voting for it because it's not Brexit."
"But it takes us out of the EU."
"It's not Brexit."
"But we leave and then have a transition to negotiate the future relationship."
"It's not Brexit."
You just had to substitute "It's not Brexit" with "It goes to 11" and you had classic Spinal Tap.0 -
In one case one was found in a basket, the other one is a complete basket caseScott_P said:0 -
I do love the Irish explanation of why you have to show your passports to enter Ireland from the UK - "To prove you don't have to show your passport"!Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.38377600 -
Jesus H Christ. Government spokesman still talking about alternative arrangements to the backstop on WATO!!!!
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Parliament can't stop it. Only she can. And when parliament refuses to back her deal in MV19 that will leave her with no deal or revoke.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1110168464050794497
If she was serious, she would sack them...
Unless she is going to revoke (and I keep pointing out that I've predicted this as a scenario for her final action as PM) then its no deal.0 -
To overcome one's problems one might consider suicide a viable option, just not an ideal onePhilip_Thompson said:
If they were serious they would sack her.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1110168464050794497
If she was serious, she would sack them...
No deal is a viable option just not an ideal one.
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For limited values of "viable"...Philip_Thompson said:No deal is a viable option just not an ideal one.
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What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?0 -
Pratically I think this will mean everyone in a border area will now carry 2 passportsCarlottaVance said:
I do love the Irish explanation of why you have to show your passports to enter Ireland from the UK - "To prove you don't have to show your passport"!Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
I look forward to Arlenes application in Dublin and Michelle Oneill becoming a brit0 -
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A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc) and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)
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The offer they want is one that is in the gift of the EU not May and the EU, understandably, will not be making it.TGOHF said:
I think there is an offer that can be made that they might accept.ExiledInScotland said:
You really think the DUP will shift position? Really?TGOHF said:
Early days yet - the DUP have not shifted .... "yet" ....MarqueeMark said:
The vote may be on , or it may not be. Or it might yet be or it might not.
Those looking for certainty at any point will be disappointed.
Will it be offered ? Who knows ?
Normal rules have gone out the window.
Mrs May has until Friday I suspect to get something done or she is out.
But then we thought that for the last 3 weeks..0 -
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I would like to think so as the last thing I want is No Deal.Casino_Royale said:
A further long can kick I think, with a very angry EU.Cyclefree said:Anyway, it will be No Deal on April 12th. Why? Our MPs and government are numpties and are not using the time granted by the EU to do something useful.
No-one wants No Deal.
But I think that we are in danger of believing what we want to be true.
The UK is taking no steps to avoid a No Deal exit. So it will happen. All that happened last week was that the date was pushed back. May is as unable as ever to get agreement; not enough MPs appear to have shifted their votes; the ERG see their prize in sight; and MPs are busy debating possible alternatives as if (a) the EU had agreed these; and (b) we had months and months to come to a decision. They are in La-La-Land, I'm afraid.0 -
Well I also use Remainaics for the likes of Grieve so I'm an equal opportunity user of inappropriate mental health slurs.TGOHF said:What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?0 -
You write this Alan as though this is somehow a told you so, gotcha moment whereas it is (or would be) a profoundly tragic, potentially deadly and certainly hugely disruptive consequence of Brexit.Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
Which of course is why there won't be no deal, that said.
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Many if not most are conscientious, smart, capable. Politics is messy and each MP can only do so much to unmessify the current situation.Casino_Royale said:
Such as?Nigel_Foremain said:
There are quite a number of very talented individuals. Many of whom are individually minded so therefore are not on the frontbenches of either of the two main parties. Our party political system is broken. The cream no longer rises to the top, it is homogenised so as to become indistinguishable from the sour old curds that are favoured by the party faithful. Corbyn and May are the end result of this, and the Brexit fiasco the concomitant allergic reaction.Casino_Royale said:
Who with talent becomes an MP now?SouthamObserver said:
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!TOPPING said:
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.SouthamObserver said:
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?TOPPING said:have just backed MV3 to pass at 3.14 on bf.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.0 -
Bet the majority of MPs from all parties are delighted the cretins in the ERG went for a confidence vote in the PM, before Christmas.
Hasn't caused any problems at all, no siree...0 -
I thought Leavers would not be in favour of frowning on such adjectives. Would that not be "political correctness gone mad"? Mad? Can we not use that now either? Nope sorry! Ozzy Osbourn has just brought out a new album called "diary of a Leaver (who has no issues-honestly!)"TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?0 -
Bravo. A brilliant and compelling analogy.Nigel_Foremain said:
There are quite a number of very talented individuals. Many of whom are individually minded so therefore are not on the frontbenches of either of the two main parties. Our party political system is broken. The cream no longer rises to the top, it is homogenised so as to become indistinguishable from the sour old curds that are favoured by the party faithful. Corbyn and May are the end result of this, and the Brexit fiasco the concomitant allergic reaction.Casino_Royale said:
Who with talent becomes an MP now?SouthamObserver said:
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!TOPPING said:
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.SouthamObserver said:
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?TOPPING said:have just backed MV3 to pass at 3.14 on bf.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.0 -
It seems a pointless thing to argue about, but the hearing before a judge which finally disposes of the claim in a civil case is a trial, both technically and colloquially.Cyclefree said:
A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc )and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)
From the judge's summing up in Jeffrey Archer's libel claim (the claim itself, *not* the later prosecution):
"Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? Has she had a happy married life? Has she been able to enjoy, rather than endure, her husband Jeffrey?"0 -
no I write it more in frustration that we have had years on pointlessly wanky discussions on what has been obvious for ages. Checks will take place away from the border ( as they do now ) and IT will bulk process the larger shipments. Nobody is going to get excited about shoppers in Newry or Dundalk. It's where could have got to ages ago and avoided all the needless cross border grief and the sour atmosphere that followed.TOPPING said:
You write this Alan as though this is somehow a told you so, gotcha moment whereas it is (or would be) a profoundly tragic, potentially deadly and certainly hugely disruptive consequence of Brexit.Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
Which of course is why there won't be no deal, that said.
And if theres a deal then that just shows how even more ridiculous the whole thing has been0 -
Calling "political correctness" mad is not the same as calling an MP a lunatic for not being in favour of a supranational trading cartel.Nigel_Foremain said:
I thought Leavers would not be in favour of frowning on such adjectives. Would that not be "political correctness gone mad"? Mad? Can we not use that now either? Nope sorry! Ozzy Osbourn has just brought out a new album called "diary of a Leaver (who has no issues-honestly!)"TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
Remain have done a pretty good job of demonising leavers since 2016 - some pretty unpleasant stuff all round.0 -
I went thru' exactly the same thought process when watching the News.Cyclefree said:
A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc) and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)0 -
I think that is a touch touchy. The vernacular is not one of mocking anyone but those such terms are used to describe.TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?0 -
A favourite movie! Another Nigel! Nigel left the band, but then, realising they were doing quite well without him then negotiated terms to come back in. Then the drummer spontaneously combusted (not sure what that is a metaphor for)kinabalu said:
My favourite Leaverloon is Owen Patterson. So amiable. So vacuous. So stubborn. It's a remarkable mix.Nigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
On TV recently:
"I'm not voting for it because it's not Brexit."
"But it takes us out of the EU."
"It's not Brexit."
"But we leave and then have a transition to negotiate the future relationship."
"It's not Brexit."
You just had to substitute "It's not Brexit" with "It goes to 11" and you had classic Spinal Tap.0 -
Possibly. But the report implied that Mike Lynch was on trial - he isn't. It wouldn't take much, would it, to say that the "biggest civil fraud trial" is starting, would it? This would be accurate. I know I'm being pedantic but accuracy matters and every single case I've been involved in has been inaccurately reported even when it was piss-easy to get it right.Ishmael_Z said:
It seems a pointless thing to argue about, but the hearing before a judge which finally disposes of the claim in a civil case is a trial, both technically and colloquially.Cyclefree said:
A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc )and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)
From the judge's summing up in Jeffrey Archer's libel claim (the claim itself, *not* the later prosecution):
"Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? Has she had a happy married life? Has she been able to enjoy, rather than endure, her husband Jeffrey?"0 -
No doubt other synonyms will enter the lexicon over time.TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
"Leave him alone. He's a bit brexity, if you know what I mean."0 -
The problem really is that the legislature is trying to take over the executive’s jobnielh said:
What is annoying about the current situation is the way in which the current issues relating to Brexit cannot be bought to a conclusion. The first or at the very most the second meaningful vote on the deal should really have been the end of the matter. The endless delay, procrastination and putting things off is difficult to comprehend, given the enormous stakes involved. It seems so predictable, that there isn't even any point in following the news. Dependent on what happens next, it may even be seen as a profound failure of the current political system, ie the point where confidence in our current system of parliamentary democracy ends.HYUFD said:
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbynwilliamglenn said:
The people voted to leave
The executive negotiated a deal to leave
Parliament rejected it
The executive negotiated some tweaks
Parliament rejected it
The executive is now asking “do you really mean it”?
However, if Parliament says “yes” they don’t get to instruct the executive what the executive should do. The executive can pursue no deal or revoke (there’s no time for another deal) - the legislature’s sanction is to VoNC the executive0 -
Were you watching a different movie?Nigel_Foremain said:A favourite movie! Another Nigel! Nigel left the band, but then, realising they were doing quite well without him then negotiated terms to come back in.
In Spinal Tap the band imploded when Nigel left and were on the brink of breaking up.
He returned at the end and they had a triumphant return in Asia0 -
Indeed. One party needs to demonstrate loss on a balance of proof rather than beyond reasonable doubtCyclefree said:
A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc) and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)0 -
Hmm, I think they're called (civil) trials here in the US, so the influence of American media is probably the reason.kjh said:
I went thru' exactly the same thought process when watching the News.Cyclefree said:
A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc) and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)0 -
They are talking about at border customs checks.Alanbrooke said:
no I write it more in frustration that we have had years on pointlessly wanky discussions on what has been obvious for ages. Checks will take place away from the border ( as they do now ) and IT will bulk process the larger shipments. Nobody is going to get excited about shoppers in Newry or Dundalk. It's where could have got to ages ago and avoided all the needless cross border grief and the sour atmosphere that followed.TOPPING said:
You write this Alan as though this is somehow a told you so, gotcha moment whereas it is (or would be) a profoundly tragic, potentially deadly and certainly hugely disruptive consequence of Brexit.Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
Which of course is why there won't be no deal, that said.
And if theres a deal then that just shows how even more ridiculous the whole thing has been
"It is clear that the EU is insisting that a way must be found to perform these checks – somewhere – and protect the EU single market, particularly in crunch areas like food and product safety."
It is difficult to see no checks being sustainable, even with Bertie's blind eye strategy.0 -
It is a while since I watched it. Maybe it is a metaphor for UKIP. Perhaps they are going to have a renaissance in Japan. The drummer was Tommy RobinsonScott_P said:
Were you watching a different movie?Nigel_Foremain said:A favourite movie! Another Nigel! Nigel left the band, but then, realising they were doing quite well without him then negotiated terms to come back in.
In Spinal Tap the band imploded when Nigel left and were on the brink of breaking up.
He returned at the end and they had a triumphant return in Asia0 -
I'm beginning to think Liz Truss might be worth an outside bet at 100/1. She wants the job, she has got a clear message that would appeal to a lot of Conservatives (lower taxes, less government spending, less state) and she has been moving herself over to the hard Brexit group. Sun's approval can't hurt either.RochdalePioneers said:
Parliament can't stop it. Only she can. And when parliament refuses to back her deal in MV19 that will leave her with no deal or revoke.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1110168464050794497
If she was serious, she would sack them...
Unless she is going to revoke (and I keep pointing out that I've predicted this as a scenario for her final action as PM) then its no deal.0 -
I doubt that TIG would fare at all well were we to have EP elections. They are not a political party , have no organisational infrastructure and have pretty well disappeared without trace.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, sounds like I got Gapes wrong.El_Capitano said:
Yes, and like others I'm bearish on Gapes.SouthamObserver said:
My guess is that she is one of the small number of MPs who has a large personal vote. But she’d certainly struggle to hold on if she did leave Labour. I expect all the TIG MPs to lose their seats except, perhaps, Allen, Wollaston and Gapes.isam said:
Only if she joins TIGSouthamObserver said:
If they don’t like her she will lose her seat.Richard_Tyndall said:
I am sure she will take the opportunity to tell them that not only are they wrong in what they think but in fact they don't think that at all.OldKingCole said:isam said:Any idea what Jess Phillips is going on about here?
https://twitter.com/JamesOBonkers/status/1110101469020254208
Ms Phillips is doing what I would expect her to do, as an 'old-fashioned', honourable constituency MP; use the specialist knowledge she has gained as an MP to represent the best interests of her constituents, regardless of whether it is what they, from time to time, agree with.isam said:Any idea what Jess Phillips is going on about here?
https://twitter.com/JamesOBonkers/status/1110101469020254208
Aren't we all lucky to have MPs to let us know what we really want and think.
Allen and Wollaston I expect will end up joining the Lib Dems after the next election. A gang of two would be a very lonely place to be.
One of the reasons we won't have EP elections is that they will be a big boost to TIG, just as they were to UKIP.0 -
Several of those were Lib Dem until 2015. Might give the local parties hope of winning them back sooner rather than never.AndyJS said:The highest percentages of the electorate signing the petition in seats that voted Leave are currently as follows:
Eltham 14.1%
Devon Central 14.1%
Totnes 14.0%
Somerton & Frome 13.6%
Somerset NE 13.5%
Sutton & Cheam 13.1%
Chippenham 12.9%
Interesting that those are all in either London or the West Country.
https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/2415840 -
Mot times I've entered Ireland by air I've not had to actually open my passport - I've been waved through on sight of its cover.CarlottaVance said:
I do love the Irish explanation of why you have to show your passports to enter Ireland from the UK - "To prove you don't have to show your passport"!Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.38377600 -
I wish I could agree.TOPPING said:
Many if not most are conscientious, smart, capable. Politics is messy and each MP can only do so much to unmessify the current situation.Casino_Royale said:
Such as?Nigel_Foremain said:
There are quite a number of very talented individuals. Many of whom are individually minded so therefore are not on the frontbenches of either of the two main parties. Our party political system is broken. The cream no longer rises to the top, it is homogenised so as to become indistinguishable from the sour old curds that are favoured by the party faithful. Corbyn and May are the end result of this, and the Brexit fiasco the concomitant allergic reaction.Casino_Royale said:
Who with talent becomes an MP now?SouthamObserver said:
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!TOPPING said:
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.SouthamObserver said:
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?TOPPING said:have just backed MV3 to pass at 3.14 on bf.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.
Many have supreme confidence, self-belief, and the endurance and determination to fight for a seat for years, and can do public speaking, meet & greets and press releases. They generally have degrees too, and so are modestly well educated.
That’s it. There are only a handful of members on both sides of the houses I’d class as original thinkers, capable leaders and competent executives.0 -
No, not demonised. Often ridiculed, and with a few exceptions, quite rightly so. They are not cool enough to be demonised.TGOHF said:
Calling "political correctness" mad is not the same as calling an MP a lunatic for not being in favour of a supranational trading cartel.Nigel_Foremain said:
I thought Leavers would not be in favour of frowning on such adjectives. Would that not be "political correctness gone mad"? Mad? Can we not use that now either? Nope sorry! Ozzy Osbourn has just brought out a new album called "diary of a Leaver (who has no issues-honestly!)"TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
Remain have done a pretty good job of demonising leavers since 2016 - some pretty unpleasant stuff all round.0 -
For all intents and purposes a check.rpjs said:
Mot times I've entered Ireland by air I've not had to actually open my passport - I've been waved through on sight of its cover.CarlottaVance said:
I do love the Irish explanation of why you have to show your passports to enter Ireland from the UK - "To prove you don't have to show your passport"!Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.38377600 -
"quite rightly so"Nigel_Foremain said:
No, not demonised. Often ridiculed, and with a few exceptions, quite rightly so. They are not cool enough to be demonised.TGOHF said:
Calling "political correctness" mad is not the same as calling an MP a lunatic for not being in favour of a supranational trading cartel.Nigel_Foremain said:
I thought Leavers would not be in favour of frowning on such adjectives. Would that not be "political correctness gone mad"? Mad? Can we not use that now either? Nope sorry! Ozzy Osbourn has just brought out a new album called "diary of a Leaver (who has no issues-honestly!)"TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
Remain have done a pretty good job of demonising leavers since 2016 - some pretty unpleasant stuff all round.
The remainer argument since Cameron came home with nothing.
"Trust us we know better than you plebs"
0 -
Last time I entered Ireland by air, which admittedly was not Dublin, there was no passport check of any kind.RobD said:
For all intents and purposes a check.rpjs said:
Mot times I've entered Ireland by air I've not had to actually open my passport - I've been waved through on sight of its cover.CarlottaVance said:
I do love the Irish explanation of why you have to show your passports to enter Ireland from the UK - "To prove you don't have to show your passport"!Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.38377600 -
He is one Brexit short of a full 27williamglenn said:
No doubt other synonyms will enter the lexicon over time.TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
"Leave him alone. He's a bit brexity, if you know what I mean."0 -
looking at TV reports the irish are looking a checks away from the border which if theyd stopped green tub thunping both sides could have agreed.TOPPING said:
They are talking about at border customs checks.Alanbrooke said:
no I write it more in frustration that we have had years on pointlessly wanky discussions on what has been obvious for ages. Checks will take place away from the border ( as they do now ) and IT will bulk process the larger shipments. Nobody is going to get excited about shoppers in Newry or Dundalk. It's where could have got to ages ago and avoided all the needless cross border grief and the sour atmosphere that followed.TOPPING said:
You write this Alan as though this is somehow a told you so, gotcha moment whereas it is (or would be) a profoundly tragic, potentially deadly and certainly hugely disruptive consequence of Brexit.Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
Which of course is why there won't be no deal, that said.
And if theres a deal then that just shows how even more ridiculous the whole thing has been
"It is clear that the EU is insisting that a way must be found to perform these checks – somewhere – and protect the EU single market, particularly in crunch areas like food and product safety."
It is difficult to see no checks being sustainable, even with Bertie's blind eye strategy.
There a residual push by the EU to make the border hard, this will be Varadkar shooting himself in the foot, frankly he should tell Selmayr to stand at Belleek and the do the checks himself. It would unite North and South in target practice.0 -
Wasn't nothing. But we explained all that to you before. Not our fault you're ******* *** ** * ******TGOHF said:
"quite rightly so"Nigel_Foremain said:
No, not demonised. Often ridiculed, and with a few exceptions, quite rightly so. They are not cool enough to be demonised.TGOHF said:
Calling "political correctness" mad is not the same as calling an MP a lunatic for not being in favour of a supranational trading cartel.Nigel_Foremain said:
I thought Leavers would not be in favour of frowning on such adjectives. Would that not be "political correctness gone mad"? Mad? Can we not use that now either? Nope sorry! Ozzy Osbourn has just brought out a new album called "diary of a Leaver (who has no issues-honestly!)"TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
Remain have done a pretty good job of demonising leavers since 2016 - some pretty unpleasant stuff all round.
The remainer argument since Cameron came home with nothing.
"Trust us we know better than you plebs"0 -
You and your Swaine Adeney briefcase, if I may say, are not the problem.rcs1000 said:
Last time I entered Ireland by air, which admittedly was not Dublin, there was no passport check of any kind.RobD said:
For all intents and purposes a check.rpjs said:
Mot times I've entered Ireland by air I've not had to actually open my passport - I've been waved through on sight of its cover.CarlottaVance said:
I do love the Irish explanation of why you have to show your passports to enter Ireland from the UK - "To prove you don't have to show your passport"!Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.38377600 -
LOL. Excellent.Nigel_Foremain said:
In one case one was found in a basket, the other one is a complete basket caseScott_P said:0 -
So yes or no to MV3?0
-
I'll tell you a riddle: You're waiting for a Deal, a Deal that will take you far away. You know where you hope this Deal will take you, but you don't know for sure. But it doesn't matter. How can it not matter to you where that Deal will take you?0
-
His petition is only 12.5 million short of winning a referendum ?Nigel_Foremain said:
He is one Brexit short of a full 27williamglenn said:
No doubt other synonyms will enter the lexicon over time.TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
"Leave him alone. He's a bit brexity, if you know what I mean."0 -
Nope. Because there are legal ways in which they can be removed. You specifically mentioned non-democratic ways of doing it. Please try to be consistent.Stereotomy said:
Okay. So it's not just them taking their seat which is required to respect the vote then, is it? It's them remaining in their seat through the term they were elected for.Richard_Tyndall said:
Not at all. Nor have I advocated it nor even intimated it anywhere in what I have written.Stereotomy said:
So if we had a system where an MP would take their seat for a day then be replaced through some non-democratic system immediately afterwards, that would be fine?Richard_Tyndall said:
No I a really not because I have always maintained we elect individual MPs not parties. As such as long as the elected MP can take their seat the contract has been fulfilled.TOPPING said:
Yes criticise away very happy with that. Equally, the point about the manifesto still stands. You are in effect saying that unless and until every manifesto promise is enacted we shouldn't have another GE.Richard_Tyndall said:
No, it counters any legitimate cause to remove them before they have served their term. It does not counter any criticism of them for dishonesty if they promised to abide by the referendum to get elected (eg Soubry) .TOPPING said:
Hmm. We vote for individuals yes, but we do so in order for them to enact a set of promises which have been described in a manifesto.Richard_Tyndall said:The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.
And of course your "as long as they take their seat in parliament" point counters any criticism of remain-inclined MPs in Leave constituencies.0 -
I accept it is subjective. I personally think it is quite correct to ridicule Liam Fox, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg and Mark Francois. They are cartoon characters. Utterly ridiculous. They are the Brexit leaders. Gove is at least just unpleasant, but not nearly as ludicrous as most of the rest.TGOHF said:
"quite rightly so"Nigel_Foremain said:
No, not demonised. Often ridiculed, and with a few exceptions, quite rightly so. They are not cool enough to be demonised.TGOHF said:
Calling "political correctness" mad is not the same as calling an MP a lunatic for not being in favour of a supranational trading cartel.Nigel_Foremain said:
I thought Leavers would not be in favour of frowning on such adjectives. Would that not be "political correctness gone mad"? Mad? Can we not use that now either? Nope sorry! Ozzy Osbourn has just brought out a new album called "diary of a Leaver (who has no issues-honestly!)"TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
Remain have done a pretty good job of demonising leavers since 2016 - some pretty unpleasant stuff all round.
The remainer argument since Cameron came home with nothing.
"Trust us we know better than you plebs"0 -
The EU can see the sands shifting and are being heavily lobbied by their friends here.Cyclefree said:
I would like to think so as the last thing I want is No Deal.Casino_Royale said:
A further long can kick I think, with a very angry EU.Cyclefree said:Anyway, it will be No Deal on April 12th. Why? Our MPs and government are numpties and are not using the time granted by the EU to do something useful.
No-one wants No Deal.
But I think that we are in danger of believing what we want to be true.
The UK is taking no steps to avoid a No Deal exit. So it will happen. All that happened last week was that the date was pushed back. May is as unable as ever to get agreement; not enough MPs appear to have shifted their votes; the ERG see their prize in sight; and MPs are busy debating possible alternatives as if (a) the EU had agreed these; and (b) we had months and months to come to a decision. They are in La-La-Land, I'm afraid.
They know the longer the can is kicked with no outcome that eventually we’ll revoke and stay. It’s just a question of time.
They’re fed up of May, I admit. But I think they’ll keep kicking.0 -
You assume they want us to stay. I think they are now ambivalent. I wish it were not so, but who can blame them.Casino_Royale said:
The EU can see the sands shifting and are being heavily lobbied by their friends here.Cyclefree said:
I would like to think so as the last thing I want is No Deal.Casino_Royale said:
A further long can kick I think, with a very angry EU.Cyclefree said:Anyway, it will be No Deal on April 12th. Why? Our MPs and government are numpties and are not using the time granted by the EU to do something useful.
No-one wants No Deal.
But I think that we are in danger of believing what we want to be true.
The UK is taking no steps to avoid a No Deal exit. So it will happen. All that happened last week was that the date was pushed back. May is as unable as ever to get agreement; not enough MPs appear to have shifted their votes; the ERG see their prize in sight; and MPs are busy debating possible alternatives as if (a) the EU had agreed these; and (b) we had months and months to come to a decision. They are in La-La-Land, I'm afraid.
They know the longer the can is kicked with no outcome that eventually we’ll revoke and stay. It’s just a question of time.
They’re fed up of May, I admit. But I think they’ll keep kicking.0 -
A former chief inspector of schools said LGBT rights lessons should be reinstated, despite parents' protests.
The No Outsiders programme at five Birmingham schools stopped when parents said it was age-inappropriate and incompatible with Islam.
Sir Michael Wilshaw, the former head of Ofsted, said people had to accept they were "living in this country with the values that this country holds".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-476926170 -
Nope. Only 13% of MPs (89) voted against invoking A50.williamglenn said:
You're including MPs who were reelected after voting against invoking Article 50 in your 80%.Richard_Tyndall said:
If that were the case then about 80% of the current lot would be out on their ear. But more seriously, whatever the public perception, legally what I have said is correct. We vote for individual MPs not for parties.TOPPING said:
Well you might have maintained it but I think it is accepted that an individual MP is elected "on his/her(/their?) party's manifesto".Richard_Tyndall said:
No I a really not because I have always maintained we elect individual MPs not parties. As such as long as the elected MP can take their seat the contract has been fulfilled.TOPPING said:
Yes criticise away very happy with that. Equally, the point about the manifesto still stands. You are in effect saying that unless and until every manifesto promise is enacted we shouldn't have another GE.Richard_Tyndall said:
No, it counters any legitimate cause to remove them before they have served their term. It does not counter any criticism of them for dishonesty if they promised to abide by the referendum to get elected (eg Soubry) .TOPPING said:
Hmm. We vote for individuals yes, but we do so in order for them to enact a set of promises which have been described in a manifesto.Richard_Tyndall said:The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.
And of course your "as long as they take their seat in parliament" point counters any criticism of remain-inclined MPs in Leave constituencies.0 -
Yes it still delivers. I watched it again last week when I had the flu. At the end of it I still had the flu but for about 95 minutes I didn't.Nigel_Foremain said:A favourite movie! Another Nigel! Nigel left the band, but then, realising they were doing quite well without him then negotiated terms to come back in. Then the drummer spontaneously combusted (not sure what that is a metaphor for)
0 -
NEW THREAD
0 -
For speaking their mind in cabinet?Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1110168464050794497
If she was serious, she would sack them...0 -
I thought that was Peter Cook satire not real!Ishmael_Z said:From the judge's summing up in Jeffrey Archer's libel claim (the claim itself, *not* the later prosecution):
"Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? Has she had a happy married life? Has she been able to enjoy, rather than endure, her husband Jeffrey?"0 -
Dunno. The Commission published a statement this morning saying no deal is a serious possibilityCasino_Royale said:
The EU can see the sands shifting and are being heavily lobbied by their friends here.Cyclefree said:
I would like to think so as the last thing I want is No Deal.Casino_Royale said:
A further long can kick I think, with a very angry EU.Cyclefree said:Anyway, it will be No Deal on April 12th. Why? Our MPs and government are numpties and are not using the time granted by the EU to do something useful.
No-one wants No Deal.
But I think that we are in danger of believing what we want to be true.
The UK is taking no steps to avoid a No Deal exit. So it will happen. All that happened last week was that the date was pushed back. May is as unable as ever to get agreement; not enough MPs appear to have shifted their votes; the ERG see their prize in sight; and MPs are busy debating possible alternatives as if (a) the EU had agreed these; and (b) we had months and months to come to a decision. They are in La-La-Land, I'm afraid.
They know the longer the can is kicked with no outcome that eventually we’ll revoke and stay. It’s just a question of time.
They’re fed up of May, I admit. But I think they’ll keep kicking.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/brexit-eu-says-no-deal-is-now-increasingly-likely-1-48951090 -
How many Tory MPs would vote for a general election?HYUFD said:
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbynwilliamglenn said:0 -
I don't see the demonisation of Varadkar. He has used the situation to advance his cause maybe, but previous "technology" or "blind eyes" have been IMO unrealistic.Alanbrooke said:
looking at TV reports the irish are looking a checks away from the border which if theyd stopped green tub thunping both sides could have agreed.TOPPING said:
They are talking about at border customs checks.Alanbrooke said:
no I write it more in frustration that we have had years on pointlessly wanky discussions on what has been obvious for ages. Checks will take place away from the border ( as they do now ) and IT will bulk process the larger shipments. Nobody is going to get excited about shoppers in Newry or Dundalk. It's where could have got to ages ago and avoided all the needless cross border grief and the sour atmosphere that followed.TOPPING said:
You write this Alan as though this is somehow a told you so, gotcha moment whereas it is (or would be) a profoundly tragic, potentially deadly and certainly hugely disruptive consequence of Brexit.Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
Which of course is why there won't be no deal, that said.
And if theres a deal then that just shows how even more ridiculous the whole thing has been
"It is clear that the EU is insisting that a way must be found to perform these checks – somewhere – and protect the EU single market, particularly in crunch areas like food and product safety."
It is difficult to see no checks being sustainable, even with Bertie's blind eye strategy.
There a residual push by the EU to make the border hard, this will be Varadkar shooting himself in the foot, frankly he should tell Selmayr to stand at Belleek and the do the checks himself. It would unite North and South in target practice.
Even away from the border checks comes with problems. Who's to say whether that blue Toyota Hiace van came from an away from the border check or not as it eventually does cross the border?0 -
Unbelievable, wasn't it?kinabalu said:
I thought that was Peter Cook satire not real!Ishmael_Z said:From the judge's summing up in Jeffrey Archer's libel claim (the claim itself, *not* the later prosecution):
"Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? Has she had a happy married life? Has she been able to enjoy, rather than endure, her husband Jeffrey?"
The Peter Cook version hardly outdid the real thing, but it did say "is she not called Mary, like unto the Mother of our Lord?"0 -
New thread.0
-
Pretty much agree with all of that.Nigel_Foremain said:
There are quite a number of very talented individuals. Many of whom are individually minded so therefore are not on the frontbenches of either of the two main parties. Our party political system is broken. The cream no longer rises to the top, it is homogenised so as to become indistinguishable from the sour old curds that are favoured by the party faithful. Corbyn and May are the end result of this, and the Brexit fiasco the concomitant allergic reaction.Casino_Royale said:
Who with talent becomes an MP now?SouthamObserver said:
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!TOPPING said:
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.SouthamObserver said:
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?TOPPING said:have just backed MV3 to pass at 3.14 on bf.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.0 -
Regarding the part of your otherwise well-argued answer I have highlighted in bold: the referendum was explicitly advisory on Parliament, not binding.Richard_Tyndall said:The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.0 -
They all do, for different reasons.Nigel_Foremain said:
You assume they want us to stay. I think they are now ambivalent. I wish it were not so, but who can blame them.Casino_Royale said:
The EU can see the sands shifting and are being heavily lobbied by their friends here.Cyclefree said:
I would like to think so as the last thing I want is No Deal.Casino_Royale said:
A further long can kick I think, with a very angry EU.Cyclefree said:Anyway, it will be No Deal on April 12th. Why? Our MPs and government are numpties and are not using the time granted by the EU to do something useful.
No-one wants No Deal.
But I think that we are in danger of believing what we want to be true.
The UK is taking no steps to avoid a No Deal exit. So it will happen. All that happened last week was that the date was pushed back. May is as unable as ever to get agreement; not enough MPs appear to have shifted their votes; the ERG see their prize in sight; and MPs are busy debating possible alternatives as if (a) the EU had agreed these; and (b) we had months and months to come to a decision. They are in La-La-Land, I'm afraid.
They know the longer the can is kicked with no outcome that eventually we’ll revoke and stay. It’s just a question of time.
They’re fed up of May, I admit. But I think they’ll keep kicking.0 -
Didn’t HMG spend £5mn telling everyone they’d enact the decision made?Benpointer said:
Regarding the part of your otherwise well-argued answerI have bolded: the referendum was explicitly advisory on Parliament, not binding.Richard_Tyndall said:The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.0 -
D minor is the saddest of all keys I find!!kinabalu said:
Yes it still delivers. I watched it again last week when I had the flu. At the end of it I still had the flu but for about 95 minutes I didn't.Nigel_Foremain said:A favourite movie! Another Nigel! Nigel left the band, but then, realising they were doing quite well without him then negotiated terms to come back in. Then the drummer spontaneously combusted (not sure what that is a metaphor for)
0 -
TGOHF said:
His petition is only 12.5 million short of winning a referendum ?Nigel_Foremain said:
He is one Brexit short of a full 27williamglenn said:
No doubt other synonyms will enter the lexicon over time.TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
Touche !
"Leave him alone. He's a bit brexity, if you know what I mean."0 -
On the Tory side both Rory Stewart and Johnny Mercer.Casino_Royale said:
Such as?Nigel_Foremain said:
There are quite a number of very talented individuals. Many of whom are individually minded so therefore are not on the frontbenches of either of the two main parties. Our party political system is broken. The cream no longer rises to the top, it is homogenised so as to become indistinguishable from the sour old curds that are favoured by the party faithful. Corbyn and May are the end result of this, and the Brexit fiasco the concomitant allergic reaction.Casino_Royale said:
Who with talent becomes an MP now?SouthamObserver said:
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!TOPPING said:
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.SouthamObserver said:
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?TOPPING said:have just backed MV3 to pass at 3.14 on bf.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.0 -
Touche !!Nigel_Foremain said:TGOHF said:
His petition is only 12.5 million short of winning a referendum ?Nigel_Foremain said:
He is one Brexit short of a full 27williamglenn said:
No doubt other synonyms will enter the lexicon over time.TGOHF said:
What is it with Remainers and mocking those with mental health issues ?kinabalu said:
My favourite LeaverloonNigel_Foremain said:I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
"Loons"
"Nutters"
"Headcases"
"mad"
"insane"
If you must insist on othering are there not other adjectives available ?
"Leave him alone. He's a bit brexity, if you know what I mean."
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£9 million I believeRobD said:
Didn’t HMG spend £5mn telling everyone they’d enact the decision made?Benpointer said:
Regarding the part of your otherwise well-argued answerI have bolded: the referendum was explicitly advisory on Parliament, not binding.Richard_Tyndall said:The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.0 -
Googling around... they're not the only ones (certainly the Telegraph, and a number of others, some of whom have at least put "civil trial"). Combined with the use of fraud, ie a criminal offence, it's not a good look.Nigel_Foremain said:
Indeed. One party needs to demonstrate loss on a balance of proof rather than beyond reasonable doubtCyclefree said:
A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc) and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)0 -
I think there are talented people on all sides of the House and all sides of the current debate. There are also some loons (sorry Mr TGOHF) on all sides. I think this " all MPs are terrible" meme is very damaging, and was not helped by our current PM recently. Most do what they think is right.Richard_Tyndall said:
On the Tory side both Rory Stewart and Johnny Mercer.Casino_Royale said:
Such as?Nigel_Foremain said:
There are quite a number of very talented individuals. Many of whom are individually minded so therefore are not on the frontbenches of either of the two main parties. Our party political system is broken. The cream no longer rises to the top, it is homogenised so as to become indistinguishable from the sour old curds that are favoured by the party faithful. Corbyn and May are the end result of this, and the Brexit fiasco the concomitant allergic reaction.Casino_Royale said:
Who with talent becomes an MP now?SouthamObserver said:
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!TOPPING said:
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.SouthamObserver said:
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?TOPPING said:have just backed MV3 to pass at 3.14 on bf.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.0 -
There was, in the past, an unfortunate incident involving Irish immigration officials and non-white UK citizens where nationality assumptions and actions around perceived illigality were made. Requiring passports is easier than changing immigration official attitudes.CarlottaVance said:
I do love the Irish explanation of why you have to show your passports to enter Ireland from the UK - "To prove you don't have to show your passport"!Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
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She has a skeleton in her cupboard though - hence ,being called locally 'the Tory trollop'!TheKitchenCabinet said:
I'm beginning to think Liz Truss might be worth an outside bet at 100/1. She wants the job, she has got a clear message that would appeal to a lot of Conservatives (lower taxes, less government spending, less state) and she has been moving herself over to the hard Brexit group. Sun's approval can't hurt either.RochdalePioneers said:
Parliament can't stop it. Only she can. And when parliament refuses to back her deal in MV19 that will leave her with no deal or revoke.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1110168464050794497
If she was serious, she would sack them...
Unless she is going to revoke (and I keep pointing out that I've predicted this as a scenario for her final action as PM) then its no deal.0 -
I think of it as Private Eye syndrome. It's enjoyable until it writes about something you know the detail of . When it's invariably wrong, and not in a minor way. Then you start to wonder about everything else they've written with some other "you" thinking the same.Cyclefree said:
Possibly. But the report implied that Mike Lynch was on trial - he isn't. It wouldn't take much, would it, to say that the "biggest civil fraud trial" is starting, would it? This would be accurate. I know I'm being pedantic but accuracy matters and every single case I've been involved in has been inaccurately reported even when it was piss-easy to get it right.Ishmael_Z said:
It seems a pointless thing to argue about, but the hearing before a judge which finally disposes of the claim in a civil case is a trial, both technically and colloquially.Cyclefree said:
A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc )and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)
From the judge's summing up in Jeffrey Archer's libel claim (the claim itself, *not* the later prosecution):
"Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? Has she had a happy married life? Has she been able to enjoy, rather than endure, her husband Jeffrey?"
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CarlottaVance said:
I do love the Irish explanation of why you have to show your passports to enter Ireland from the UK - "To prove you don't have to show your passport"!Alanbrooke said:
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, you don't. Under the terms of the CTA (Common Travel Area), there are currently no ID checks of any kind on ferries arriving in Ireland from the UK, and most airlines (Ryanair excepted) will accept most forms of photo ID such as UK driving licence or even a bus pass.
The gov.uk. website confirms that even in the event of a no-deal Brexit ,all the current features of the CTA (which dates back to the 1920's) will still apply.0 -
God yes.. this ^matt said:
I think of it as Private Eye syndrome. It's enjoyable until it writes about something you know the detail of . When it's invariably wrong, and not in a minor way. Then you start to wonder about everything else they've written with some other "you" thinking the same.Cyclefree said:
Possibly. But the report implied that Mike Lynch was on trial - he isn't. It wouldn't take much, would it, to say that the "biggest civil fraud trial" is starting, would it? This would be accurate. I know I'm being pedantic but accuracy matters and every single case I've been involved in has been inaccurately reported even when it was piss-easy to get it right.Ishmael_Z said:
It seems a pointless thing to argue about, but the hearing before a judge which finally disposes of the claim in a civil case is a trial, both technically and colloquially.Cyclefree said:
A civil case is not a trial. People listening to that report would have assumed that this was a trial of an individual resulting in a conviction for fraud or not. A civil case is a different beast (different parties/standard and burden of proof / no jury etc etc )and the report should have said that. It may be a pedantic point but an important one. IMO.Ishmael_Z said:
A civil trial is a trial.Cyclefree said:Aaargh: why can't BBC journalists get anything right?
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)
From the judge's summing up in Jeffrey Archer's libel claim (the claim itself, *not* the later prosecution):
"Remember Mary Archer in the witness-box. Your vision of her probably will never disappear. Has she elegance? Has she fragrance? Would she have, without the strain of this trial, radiance? How would she appeal? Has she had a happy married life? Has she been able to enjoy, rather than endure, her husband Jeffrey?"0
