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@ScottP

You seem perfectly happy with the way No is running the campaign. I wish I had your confidence.

Do you not see the strategic flaw with Osborne telling Scots they can't do something?

Souffle question: if you leave it for a few days does it sag/collapse?

I also think that on balance this tough and hostile line taken by rUK is more likely to help the "Yes" campaign than the supporters of the Union.

Yes but you are looking at this from a Scottish perspective.

How long do you think a RUK government that allowed Scotland a say in its currency would last? Especially with the tories against, and in a parliament shorn of 40 Labour MPs.

johnstevens said:

The current confusion is deeply political: the SNP are frightened to admit the euro is where they will end up, the rUK establishment is frightened to admit that if given the choice of Scotland being in a monetary union with sterling or in the euro they would vastly prefer the former option.

Where do you get that idea from. I think given the choice of Scotland having the Euro or being tied to the £ we would prefer Scotland to be tied to the Euro.

Unless, of course, your banks are fully under Bank of England control in which case Scotland would definitely prefer the Euro to £....

johnstevens said:

David L
I think both you and Richard Nabavi are missing the point that the Czech/Slovak monetary split occurred before the creation of the euro. My understanding of at least ECB thinking on this, based on its and its predecessors attitude to the Slovak case particularly, would be that the Scots would use the pound for a relatively short transitional period before joining the euro. Obviously then the debt position would be of some significance as inflation should not be an issue. The current confusion is deeply political: the SNP are frightened to admit the euro is where they will end up, the rUK establishment is frightened to admit that if given the choice of Scotland being in a monetary union with sterling or in the euro they would vastly prefer the former option. I also think that on balance this tough and hostile line taken by rUK is more likely to help the "Yes" campaign than the supporters of the Union. As a strong Unionist I therefore think it regrettable that the English are appearing to want to treat the Scots post independence as more foreign than the French currently treat the Germans.

No I was aware this was all pre-Euro by some years. It was in 1993. In fact the Czech republic is still not a member of the Euro although I understand that the currency is heavily used in business in that country.

I don't the rUK would vastly prefer Scotland to be in a sterling currency union than members of the EZ. That is not what the politicians of all 3 parties are saying and I see no reason to not believe them. Indeed, if you read Osborne's speech, it is clear this has been given serious thought and the opposite conclusion has been reached.

Whether this helps or hinders the Yes campaign is harder to say. I tend to agree with Sean T that it will help in the short term but hinder more in the medium term once people think through the implications but we really need polling as this is no more than a hunch.

Morris_Dancer said:

Good evening, everyone.

Mr. T, that's a silly idea. If we renamed our currency the Thatcher would be a better name (guaranteed to stop a currency union).
.

If we're going to call our currency the Thatcher, can I please use Euros?

I am interested in this notion that you have to be right wing to believe that the SNP leadership's version of how the independence process will work is deeply flawed. That must make Jim Sillars and Patrick Harvie right wing. Blimey.

taffys.
I am looking at it from the point of view of preserving the Union, the loss of which I think would be a disaster for everyone, not least England. But were it to come about as you say, I would be surprised if even a Con/UKIP rUK administration would prefer to see the Scots in the euro rather than in Sterling. Of course the issue of rUK EU membership would loom large in this as well.

Tiny Spark Projects ‏@tinysparkpro 1h

Cameron tells insurers to act quickly in relation to flood claims; presumably quicker than the government responded to the crisis #potkettle

Andy Slaughter MP ‏@hammersmithandy Feb 13

Two years since Cameron's infamous insurers' summit. When the corporates were welcomed to Downing St and the victims locked out #postclaims

SouthamObserver said:

I am interested in this notion that you have to be right wing to believe that the SNP leadership's version of how the independence process will work is deeply flawed.

I'm amused that the foremost PB Romney on here still doesn't understand just how toxic out of touch politicians can be to their own cause.

You'll grasp it one day perhaps.

CarlottaVance said:

TheLastBoyScout said:

Do you not see the strategic flaw with Osborne telling Scots they can't do something?

Who would you have tell the Scots that the SNP's claims on the pound are bogus and that rUK will not sign up to a currency union, if not the CoE, which ever party or nationality he is from?

Whether it's better for "Yes" or "No" is neither here nor there - it's better for the campaign in total. The Scots will make a better informed decision and that can only be a good thing.

Sorry but I want to win. The last person I would chose to make this announcement is someone who is universally despised in Scotland.

TheLastBoyScout said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheLastBoyScout said:

Do you not see the strategic flaw with Osborne telling Scots they can't do something?

Who would you have tell the Scots that the SNP's claims on the pound are bogus and that rUK will not sign up to a currency union, if not the CoE, which ever party or nationality he is from?

Whether it's better for "Yes" or "No" is neither here nor there - it's better for the campaign in total. The Scots will make a better informed decision and that can only be a good thing.

Sorry but I want to win. The last person I would chose to make this announcement is someone who is universally despised in Scotland.

If you believe the Scots are so sensitive that they will make a decision on Independence based on who gives a speech on the prospects of a currency union, then you have already lost.

TGOHF said:

TheLastBoyScout said:

@ScottP

You seem perfectly happy with the way No is running the campaign. I wish I had your confidence.

Do you not see the strategic flaw with Osborne telling Scots they can't do something?

Typical patronising socialist - "I know best how the people think..."

Eh? What on earth are you talking about?

taffys said:

I guess a RUK government would prefer Scotland in sterling,

The treasury position last week was pretty clear -rUK should NOT have a currency union with Scotland...

I would advise strongly against a currency union as currently advocated, if Scotland were to vote for independence. Why?

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/92901/treasury_permanent_secretarys_letter_to_osborne_on_scottish_currency_union.html

Notably, Salmond did not address any of these concerns today....

Looks like things are going well in the coalition while the right wingers on PB are still shrieking away.

Political Pictures ‏@PoliticalPics 4h

It's not news Cameron is spineless what is news Calamity Clegg has only just worked it out, the pair are completely useless time 4 change


Shane ‏@shanedgj Feb 16

Nick Clegg claims PM David Cameron is ‘spineless’ | The Sun |Columnists| http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/suncolumnists/guidofawkes/5447606/Nick-Clegg-claims-PM-David-Cameron-is-spineless.html …

TheLastBoyScout said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheLastBoyScout said:

Do you not see the strategic flaw with Osborne telling Scots they can't do something?

Who would you have tell the Scots that the SNP's claims on the pound are bogus and that rUK will not sign up to a currency union, if not the CoE, which ever party or nationality he is from?

Whether it's better for "Yes" or "No" is neither here nor there - it's better for the campaign in total. The Scots will make a better informed decision and that can only be a good thing.

Sorry but I want to win. The last person I would chose to make this announcement is someone who is universally despised in Scotland.

So who would you have had make the announcement?

TGOHF said:

Scott_P said:

Here is the simple fact about Alex Salmond: he's making it up as he goes along.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2014/02/17/comment-salmond-is-making-it-up-as-he-goes-along-and-now-he

Joins Brown in the "heavyweight brilliant political operators" of the Scottish left camp who when it came to the crunch weren't up to much.



It is always the same 3 stooges, feeding each other

Perhaps Salmond thought labour would have been more conciliatory on the point of a currency union and was shocked that all three main parties spoke with a united voice.

Mick_Pork said:

SouthamObserver said:

I am interested in this notion that you have to be right wing to believe that the SNP leadership's version of how the independence process will work is deeply flawed.

I'm amused that the foremost PB Romney on here still doesn't understand just how toxic out of touch politicians can be to their own cause.

You'll grasp it one day perhaps.

I do grasp it. Clearly there is a sizeable part of the Scottish electorate that will automatically dismiss what Osborne has said. And his intervention may well win Yes the referendum - indeed, it seems a landslide in favour of independence could now be on the cards. And if that is the case I will welcome it as it will indicate an irreconcilable alienation of the Scots from the rest of the UK.

But that still does not explain why you think that anyone disagreeing with the SNP leadership's version of how things will unfold after a Yes is right wing.

steve hawkes ‏@steve_hawkes 7h

Day 4 in the ultimatum house - and still no legal action from Lord Rennard


Firecrest Films ‏@FirecrestFilms 7h

@steve_hawkes Day 359 for us & still no writ from Rennard. If the allegations aren't true, why hasn't he sued us/C4News over the orig film?

Win some, lose some.

Jonathan Rich ‏@joerichlaw 9h

@solhugheswriter Does Nick Clegg think the Choudhries should be running Ofsted & our schools too? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/14/sudhir-choudhrie-profile-lib-dem-donor …

Simon Kilby ‏@SimCityAT Feb 16

Major £1 million Lib Dem donor at the centre of bribes probe wined and dined by Nick Clegg at government mansion http://dlvr.it/4xZjry

Easterross said:

There appears to now be several groups of Scottish voters.
6) Those who will vote Yes because they cant stand being told what to do and what is good for them. They can decide that for themselves.

This group seems to be the one who will apparently be swung by this currency exchange.

I can't help but wonder that if they really are voting for independence on this basis, they're having their vote dictated just as much as someone who does what George tells them, rather than joining the small and sober group who can simple observe that independence would be very dangerous for the economic health of Scotland.

malcolmg said:

TGOHF said:

James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook 41m

Billy Connolly says he's not going to vote in the referendum. "I've never been a nationalist and I've never been a patriot." #indyref

Just sticking to being a tosser as usual, he is a Disney Scot now in any case.

Unfunny prick, joking about Ken Bigley dying was absolute filth

Easterross said:

There appears to now be several groups of Scottish voters.
1) Those who will vote Yes because they hate England, the English and all things to do with the 1966 World Cup
2) Those who will vote Yes because they believe Scotland should be an independent country regardless of the financial and other consequences
3) Those who will vote Yes because they frankly only take from the state so have nothing to lose
4) Those who will vote Yes because they genuinely believe an independent Scotland will be an improvement on Scotland within the UK
5) Those who will vote Yes because Eck is never wrong
6) Those who will vote Yes because they cant stand being told what to do and what is good for them. They can decide that for themselves.

7) Those who wont vote or simply haven't a clue and if they vote, will decide at the last minute, possibly when in the voting booth.

8) Those who will vote No because they are unionist and believe in the UK even with all its flaws
9) Those who will vote No because they believe Keeping Together is the right thing to do for economic reasons
10) Those who will vote No because they cant stand Eck or the SNP

In the coming months we will see the support for 1-6 and 8-10 hardening up. It is the side which can attract most from 7 who should win as the vote will be much closer than most expect.

Good synopsis Easterross and given the NO campaign have next to no volunteers or local organisations and YES have vibrant organisations full of volunteers throughout the country it will be interesting to see if NO can maintain their position with only lies and the BBC for support.

SouthamObserver said:

Mick_Pork said:

SouthamObserver said:

I am interested in this notion that you have to be right wing to believe that the SNP leadership's version of how the independence process will work is deeply flawed.

I'm amused that the foremost PB Romney on here still doesn't understand just how toxic out of touch politicians can be to their own cause.

You'll grasp it one day perhaps.

I do grasp it. Clearly there is a sizeable part of the Scottish electorate that will automatically dismiss what Osborne has said. And his intervention may well win Yes the referendum - indeed, it seems a landslide in favour of independence could now be on the cards. And if that is the case I will welcome it as it will indicate an irreconcilable alienation of the Scots from the rest of the UK.

But that still does not explain why you think that anyone disagreeing with the SNP leadership's version of how things will unfold after a Yes is right wing.

PB is dominated by far-right and right wing opinion. Hence the deafening shrieking from them on this issue despite it hardly being the first time the NO campaign have been banging away furiously on it. It started way back in 2012. Nor is it remotely surprising that those who seem offended by the very idea of Catalan Independence should join in with them.

TGOHF said:

James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook 41m

Billy Connolly says he's not going to vote in the referendum. "I've never been a nationalist and I've never been a patriot." #indyref

And in other breaking news from the 20th century...

malcolmg said:

TheWatcher said:

isam said:

Ishmael_X said:

DavidL said:

SeanT said:

Here's a question, and quite a crucial one.

Does Salmond actually believe what he is saying? It is clear to anyone neutral that there will not be a sterling currency union as he envisages, post a YES vote. The economic case is made plain, here:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2tbSrLnBI

Moreover, polls show that rUK voters want nothing to do with a currency union. So it really is NOT going to happen - or not in any form that would be acceptable to a newly independent Scotland.

Salmond is not an idiot, indeed he is an economist, so he must realise this. That leaves us with two options: he is a bare faced liar, or he is genuinely and bizarrely deluded (or maybe he is an idiot after all).


What do people think?

And what do the Scots think? Do they honestly believe the ludicrous notion that the entire British establishment is lying? Or will they recognize the evidence that Salmond is fibbing, or delusional?

It's on that question that the referendum will turn.

As I said downthread I think it is very surprising that Salmond has been willing to risk pretty much all of his credibility on this issue. In poker terms he is now all in and with an extremely weak hand.

I don't understand why he has done it. Has he got too used to getting his own way in the Scottish Parliament? Has the pathetic nature of the Scottish media lulled him into a false sense of security? Or was he just desperate to get English tories front and central no matter what the risks and what the price was?

He may be able to bluster his way out of this but it is high risk and strange tactics for someone who is supposedly a clever politician.

Osbrowne, panda, ROFL.

It would be great to get an actual SNP supporter's actual response to the question you ask, but it isn't going to happen on here.

Andrew Neil didn't have much luck with getting the deputy leader to answer any either

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26175401

'Nicola Sturgeon told Andrew Neil that she wanted Scotland "to pay its fair share of debt", but added that it could not default on debt "that is not legally Scotland's".'

That was an extraordinary statement to make.

Funny, unionists are always shocked when confronted with the truth.

Well, yes, Mr Osborne did say so recently - that the debt is 100% to be assigned to the UK, whatever happens with indy. Plus he evidently takes the view that EWNI would be the continuing state following on from the UK. So it is an entirelhy ordinary and accurate statement to make.

malcolmg said:

Easterross said:

There appears to now be several groups of Scottish voters.
1) Those who will vote Yes because they hate England, the English and all things to do with the 1966 World Cup
2) Those who will vote Yes because they believe Scotland should be an independent country regardless of the financial and other consequences
3) Those who will vote Yes because they frankly only take from the state so have nothing to lose
4) Those who will vote Yes because they genuinely believe an independent Scotland will be an improvement on Scotland within the UK
5) Those who will vote Yes because Eck is never wrong
6) Those who will vote Yes because they cant stand being told what to do and what is good for them. They can decide that for themselves.

7) Those who wont vote or simply haven't a clue and if they vote, will decide at the last minute, possibly when in the voting booth.

8) Those who will vote No because they are unionist and believe in the UK even with all its flaws
9) Those who will vote No because they believe Keeping Together is the right thing to do for economic reasons
10) Those who will vote No because they cant stand Eck or the SNP

In the coming months we will see the support for 1-6 and 8-10 hardening up. It is the side which can attract most from 7 who should win as the vote will be much closer than most expect.

Good synopsis Easterross and given the NO campaign have next to no volunteers or local organisations and YES have vibrant organisations full of volunteers throughout the country it will be interesting to see if NO can maintain their position with only lies and the BBC for support.

Why on earth should GOTV and a ground campaign matter when Osborne and Cammie can be deployed at scottish public to the obvious delight of the PB tories? Who cares what will happen in the final weeks of the campaign. It certainly didn't bother labour in 2011, and how right they were about that.

Neil said:

CarlottaVance said:

Neil said:

CarlottaVance said:

I would advise strongly against a currency union as currently advocated, if Scotland were to vote for independence. Why?

Because my performance will be assessed against a target of how much I helped the anti-independence cause.

Eck would be proud of your diversionary tactics and avoiding the substance of the argument! Award yourself the SNP order of the Squirrel!

Come on, this is pbc, people arent interested in the substance of the argument (which I have engaged on quite a lot anyway).

Fair enough.....as a "substance avoider" you are a minor abuser.......

SouthamObserver said:

Mick_Pork said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mick_Pork said:

SouthamObserver said:

I am interested in this notion that you have to be right wing to believe that the SNP leadership's version of how the independence process will work is deeply flawed.

I'm amused that the foremost PB Romney on here still doesn't understand just how toxic out of touch politicians can be to their own cause.

You'll grasp it one day perhaps.

I do grasp it. Clearly there is a sizeable part of the Scottish electorate that will automatically dismiss what Osborne has said. And his intervention may well win Yes the referendum - indeed, it seems a landslide in favour of independence could now be on the cards. And if that is the case I will welcome it as it will indicate an irreconcilable alienation of the Scots from the rest of the UK.

But that still does not explain why you think that anyone disagreeing with the SNP leadership's version of how things will unfold after a Yes is right wing.

PB is dominated by far-right and right wing opinion. Hence the deafening shrieking from them on this issue despite it hardly being the first time the NO campaign have been banging away furiously on it. It started way back in 2012. Nor is it remotely surprising that those who seem offended by the very idea of Catalan Independence should join in with them.

Got it. Anyone who disagrees with you is right wing.

And they shriek.....

Carnyx said:

malcolmg said:

TheWatcher said:

isam said:

Ishmael_X said:

DavidL said:

SeanT said:

Here's a question, and quite a crucial one.

Does Salmond actually believe what he is saying? It is clear to anyone neutral that there will not be a sterling currency union as he envisages, post a YES vote. The economic case is made plain, here:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2tbSrLnBI

Moreover, polls show that rUK voters want nothing to do with a currency union. So it really is NOT going to happen - or not in any form that would be acceptable to a newly independent Scotland.

Salmond is not an idiot, indeed he is an economist, so he must realise this. That leaves us with two options: he is a bare faced liar, or he is genuinely and bizarrely deluded (or maybe he is an idiot after all).




It's on that question that the referendum will turn.

Osbrowne, panda, ROFL.

It would be great to get an actual SNP supporter's actual response to the question you ask, but it isn't going to happen on here.

Andrew Neil didn't have much luck with getting the deputy leader to answer any either

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26175401

'Nicola Sturgeon told Andrew Neil that she wanted Scotland "to pay its fair share of debt", but added that it could not default on debt "that is not legally Scotland's".'

That was an extraordinary statement to make.

Funny, unionists are always shocked when confronted with the truth.

Well, yes, Mr Osborne did say so recently - that the debt is 100% to be assigned to the UK, whatever happens with indy. Plus he evidently takes the view that EWNI would be the continuing state following on from the UK. So it is an entirelhy ordinary and accurate statement to make.

It never fails to surprise me on here , droves of frothing Tories who have no clue on reality. Also the 2 or 3 who claim to be Scottish but have not a balanced opinion ever to give on the topic, riven with vitriol and hatred for Scotland and SNP. Yes I mean you sad individuals , Carlotta , Scottp and TGOHF, pretendy Scots.

Mr. G, surely Scots have a right to know what they're voting on?

Mick_Pork said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mick_Pork said:

SouthamObserver said:

Mick_Pork said:

SouthamObserver said:

I am interested in this notion that you have to be right wing to believe that the SNP leadership's version of how the independence process will work is deeply flawed.

I'm amused that the foremost PB Romney on here still doesn't understand just how toxic out of touch politicians can be to their own cause.

You'll grasp it one day perhaps.

I do grasp it. Clearly there is a sizeable part of the Scottish electorate that will automatically dismiss what Osborne has said. And his intervention may well win Yes the referendum - indeed, it seems a landslide in favour of independence could now be on the cards. And if that is the case I will welcome it as it will indicate an irreconcilable alienation of the Scots from the rest of the UK.

But that still does not explain why you think that anyone disagreeing with the SNP leadership's version of how things will unfold after a Yes is right wing.

PB is dominated by far-right and right wing opinion. Hence the deafening shrieking from them on this issue despite it hardly being the first time the NO campaign have been banging away furiously on it. It started way back in 2012. Nor is it remotely surprising that those who seem offended by the very idea of Catalan Independence should join in with them.

Got it. Anyone who disagrees with you is right wing.

Really? I thought you had moved on from your cretinous "prejudice" remarks when anyone dared mention how out of touch a politician is. This is becoming almost as embarrassing for you as your Romney stupidity. By all means keep it up if you think it is productive.

Mick - I fear I am not embarrassed to question your labelling of people according to whether they share your opinions or not. I will, however, give up on hoping to get an answer from you on why it is right wing to disagree with the SNP leadership's version of Scotland's independence settlement.

malcolmg said:

maaarsh said:

Easterross said:

There appears to now be several groups of Scottish voters.
6) Those who will vote Yes because they cant stand being told what to do and what is good for them. They can decide that for themselves.

This group seems to be the one who will apparently be swung by this currency exchange.

I can't help but wonder that if they really are voting for independence on this basis, they're having their vote dictated just as much as someone who does what George tells them, rather than joining the small and sober group who can simple observe that independence would be very dangerous for the economic health of Scotland.

You people really are stupid

The SNP "rebuttal" in a nutshell.....

malcolmg said:

Carnyx said:

malcolmg said:

TheWatcher said:

isam said:

Ishmael_X said:

DavidL said:

SeanT said:

Here's a question, and quite a crucial one.

Does Salmond actually believe what he is saying? It is clear to anyone neutral that there will not be a sterling currency union as he envisages, post a YES vote. The economic case is made plain, here:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2tbSrLnBI

Moreover, polls show that rUK voters want nothing to do with a currency union. So it really is NOT going to happen - or not in any form that would be acceptable to a newly independent Scotland.

Salmond is not an idiot, indeed he is an economist, so he must realise this. That leaves us with two options: he is a bare faced liar, or he is genuinely and bizarrely deluded (or maybe he is an idiot after all).




It's on that question that the referendum will turn.

Osbrowne, panda, ROFL.

It would be great to get an actual SNP supporter's actual response to the question you ask, but it isn't going to happen on here.

Andrew Neil didn't have much luck with getting the deputy leader to answer any either

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26175401

'Nicola Sturgeon told Andrew Neil that she wanted Scotland "to pay its fair share of debt", but added that it could not default on debt "that is not legally Scotland's".'

That was an extraordinary statement to make.

Funny, unionists are always shocked when confronted with the truth.

Well, yes, Mr Osborne did say so recently - that the debt is 100% to be assigned to the UK, whatever happens with indy. Plus he evidently takes the view that EWNI would be the continuing state following on from the UK. So it is an entirelhy ordinary and accurate statement to make.

riven with vitriol and hatred for Scotland and SNP.

The difference, Malcolm dear, is that we do not believe that love of Scotland is synonymous with love of the SNP - it is quite possible to love one and not the other.

CarlottaVance said:

malcolmg said:

maaarsh said:

Easterross said:

There appears to now be several groups of Scottish voters.
6) Those who will vote Yes because they cant stand being told what to do and what is good for them. They can decide that for themselves.

This group seems to be the one who will apparently be swung by this currency exchange.

I can't help but wonder that if they really are voting for independence on this basis, they're having their vote dictated just as much as someone who does what George tells them, rather than joining the small and sober group who can simple observe that independence would be very dangerous for the economic health of Scotland.

You people really are stupid

The SNP "rebuttal" in a nutshell.....

If the cap fits.............. and in your case it is a perfect fit

Mr. G, they don't know about the currency, which in turn dictates where monetary policy would be decided and has significant implications for the lender of last resort and potential fiscal restrictions.

In a recent poll 60% of Jamaicans stated that they would prefer to be ruled from London again: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2009487/We-stayed-Britain-Shock-poll-reveals-60-Jamaicans-think-theyd-better-colony.html

I have heard similar sentiments in a number of other commonwealth countries.

malcolmg said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. G, surely Scots have a right to know what they're voting on?

MD, people know what they are voting on , it is very simple, Do we want to be an Independent Country. Every other nation in the world manages just fine, what makes Scotland so unusual that you think we cannot survive on our own using whatever currency we want. How many commonwealth countries have been knocking on Westminster door begging to come back. They were all robbed blind and managed to escape, hopefully we will do the same.

taffys said:

Perhaps Salmond thought labour would have been more conciliatory on the point of a currency union and was shocked that all three main parties spoke with a united voice.

Considering that Salmond and the nationalists have spent much of the last decade trying to establish a dividing line on pro-/anti-independence, precisely in order to (1) establish independence as critical to every political subject, (2) to define the party debate as SNP vs the rest (Greens excepted), and (3) to sully Labour and Tory with each other, in their supporters' eyes - he shouldn't be too disappointed that it's come about in this case.

Mr. G, I find it hard to believe Scotland is in a terrible state compared to the rest of the UK.

Furthermore, food banks are an unfair point because they've increased significantly every single year since they first emerged (mid-2000s, I think). Capacity has yet to reach demand, and their use rose even during the boom, so they cannot legitimately be used to score political points.

Easterross said:

malcolmg said:

Easterross said:

There appears to now be several groups of Scottish voters.
.

Malcolm you are way off beam suggesting the No campaign has next to no volunteers etc. For months I have seen emails among and photos of groups of Better Together campaigners out most weekends leafleting and manning street stalls the length and breadth of Scotland. The remarkable thing has been how often these outings have been attended by political activists from the Scots Tory, LibDem and Labour parties working together.

We regularly get told how the Tory party is dying at grassroots. This is far from the truth. Membership of Tory Associations may be falling but the Scottish Tory Party has created a Supporters Organisation which has attracted several thousand people and hundreds of thousands of pounds in donations. At each of the recent by-elections there have been many Tory supporters doing the groundwork which is in part why in each of these elections the actual Tory vote share has increased, albeit from a pretty low base in some cases.

Easterross , I have seen their pictures etc , just the other day Shorthouse said at a BT launch meeting that they "had no volunteers". They manage a few stalls and nothing more. Look at their online presence , tumbleweed, look at organised meetings .... hardly any. They do not like public meetings as it means they have to answer questions and it is harder to lie in person than on a leaflet.

malcolmg said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. G, surely Scots have a right to know what they're voting on?

How many commonwealth countries have been knocking on Westminster door

In the past half century how many begged to us the same currency on "independence"?

In other news, good to have a conservationist with hands on experience.

dominic dyer ‏@domdyer70 2 hrs
Clarence House been working overtime to stop this image going social media to tabloids they failed Royal Hypocrisy ! http://pic.twitter.com/ym5mDLmK4z

@Mick_Pork - Why would I be offended by Catalan independence? I am certainly offended by Catalan nationalists who are intolerant of other opinions and question the patriotism/politics of those who express them; but I guess that's because I find those who seek to create and amplify differences between people who are fundamentally the same pretty ridiculous -especially those who describe themselves as being on the left.

SeanT said:

Does Salmond actually believe what he is saying?

...

And what do the Scots think? Do they honestly believe the ludicrous notion that the entire British establishment is lying?

His original position was a plausible (if in my view a reckless) one: Independence is our non-negotiable requirement, but we don't see why we shouldn't do all the good and friendly things that happen now between Scotland and the other British nations. It will be a partnership of equals. He then developed policy on the assumption that these "partners" would sign up to his view of things. Indeed, the RUK could if it minded to join a currency union. Unfortunately, those people don't agree with Alex Salmond's agenda, nor do they owe him any favours, so they turned him down flat. Now he is in untenable position: he can't say, let's do something completely different, nor, clearly, can he deliver on what he originally promised.

Opinion in Scotland like elsewhere is not monolithic. we know the rough splits: 30% for Independence come what may; similar number confirmed for the Union; 20% in the Sceptical but Could be Convinced camp currently tending to No and 20% Don't Knows including some more Scepticals but Could be Convinced.

The effect of the latest shambles on the Scepticals but Could be Convinced mob is a really interesting question. The Yes campaign claim that they will be insulted into voting for them. I suspect their scepticism will only be confirmed. But I don't think the polls will move much. The Yes core is firm. Their aim during this never ending campaign was to get the Scepticals to move to them. This has only slightly happened, even in optimistic polls.