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second
Just after making 2 comments on the PT. Baa.

Liam Fox’s trade department cancels business Brexit briefings.

"Halt to roundtables after details on lack of deals leaked by infuriated participants"

https://www.ft.com/content/25b1eb3e-3e85-11e9-9bee-efab61506f44

Curse of the new thread: FPT

"YBarddCwsc said:

I very much doubt that.

It is still the case that it is easier to wait for Corby to lose control of the party (as he will, because the pendulum always swings back) than to set up a completely new party.

I always wondered what I would have done if I had been born and lived in East Germany (or another Soviet satellite) in the 1970s. Would I have tried to be a hero and cross the Wall?

The correct thing to do (we can now see) is to have waited. In 1989, the GDR collapsed.

The TIGgers have scaled the Wall. Good luck to them, but most likely they will be shot down by the border guards or bleed to death in the barbed wire.

The best thing for Labour moderates to do is wait. The Wall will come down anyhow.

If there is a GE this year (not unlikely), they may not have to wait too long."




To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

MarqueeMark said:

Curse of the new thread: FPT

"YBarddCwsc said:

I very much doubt that.

It is still the case that it is easier to wait for Corby to lose control of the party (as he will, because the pendulum always swings back) than to set up a completely new party.

I always wondered what I would have done if I had been born and lived in East Germany (or another Soviet satellite) in the 1970s. Would I have tried to be a hero and cross the Wall?

The correct thing to do (we can now see) is to have waited. In 1989, the GDR collapsed.

The TIGgers have scaled the Wall. Good luck to them, but most likely they will be shot down by the border guards or bleed to death in the barbed wire.

The best thing for Labour moderates to do is wait. The Wall will come down anyhow.

If there is a GE this year (not unlikely), they may not have to wait too long."




To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

These dumb analogies say more about you than the problem, serious though it is.

Re: the polling:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1102856750405955584

Sandpit said:

OldKingCole said:

O/t but interesting development in our small town, where the locals are due in two months. Popular local man, active in all sorts of local 'good causes' has announced he's standing as an Independent. It's a two seat ward and he's got a running mate.

Suddenly we have had a leaflet from the local Tories, for the first time since the last elections, announcing 'two independently minded conservatives'!

Good to hear, more people getting involved in local democracy.

Quite. The 'independently minded conservatives', the sitting councillors, have been notably quiet in local affairs since the last election in 2015 and but because they are conservatives 'participate in the decision making group". Or some form of words like that.
It's quite amusing, actually, in a somewhat horrific way.

YBarddCwsc said:

Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.

... unless he thinks that it will replace Labour, and is more to his advantage. (A machiavellian analysis).

Will it? No idea.

But sweet revenge if we have any Liberals who were there in 1920.

YBarddCwsc said:

Philip_Thompson said:

YBarddCwsc said:

MarqueeMark said:

To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

But the point is that the Soviet Union ... and even apartheid South Africa .... were reformed from within. Sure, there were external pressures ... but did anyone expect them to fall apart so quickly. The effective Reformers were in the party, they were not outside.

Corby will meet a General Election soon (possibly very soon).

He will either win (in which case Watson will momentarily shut up & take a Ministerial position) or he will lose (in which case Watson will be either king or kingmaker). Even if Corby wins an election and becomes PM, he is old and will move on. There are plenty of opportunities in the very near future for Watson to wheel and deal.

Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.

The Soviet Union collapsed after the best part of a century. The Berlin Wall was up for 28 years.

If the far left antisemites are going to be in control for that long it seems logical to try another method. Simply waiting isn't the answer.

Waiting is always the answer.

(Also, I don't think the far-left antisemites are in control).

No it is not.

Those who were alive when the Soviet Union was formed were almost all dead by the time it collapsed. Similarly in other nations that take Corbyns politics seriously like North Korea, Venezuela and Cuba.

While the Liberals have gone nearly a century now since they last formed a government. How Kong are they going to have to wait for before they take control again?

Philip_Thompson said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Philip_Thompson said:

YBarddCwsc said:

MarqueeMark said:

To take your analogy: Corbyn's Labour is East Germany - what is the USSR that is going to collapse to make his domino fall too? There is none.

A nearer parallel might be the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia. A truly bat-shit crazy restarting of the clock to year zero. Nothing that went before had any merit. Party faithful horribly purged for not being quite faithful enough, implemented by thuggish and intensely stupid enforcers. Eventually pushed out of power by factionalism and death - with a helping hand from outside forces....

But the point is that the Soviet Union ... and even apartheid South Africa .... were reformed from within. Sure, there were external pressures ... but did anyone expect them to fall apart so quickly. The effective Reformers were in the party, they were not outside.

Corby will meet a General Election soon (possibly very soon).

He will either win (in which case Watson will momentarily shut up & take a Ministerial position) or he will lose (in which case Watson will be either king or kingmaker). Even if Corby wins an election and becomes PM, he is old and will move on. There are plenty of opportunities in the very near future for Watson to wheel and deal.

Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.

The Soviet Union collapsed after the best part of a century. The Berlin Wall was up for 28 years.

If the far left antisemites are going to be in control for that long it seems logical to try another method. Simply waiting isn't the answer.

Waiting is always the answer.

(Also, I don't think the far-left antisemites are in control).

No it is not.

Those who were alive when the Soviet Union was formed were almost all dead by the time it collapsed. Similarly in other nations that take Corbyns politics seriously like North Korea, Venezuela and Cuba.

While the Liberals have gone nearly a century now since they last formed a government. How Kong are they going to have to wait for before they take control again?

I can answer that: very Kong indeed.

How much of the High St does Mike Ashley own/have long leases on now ?

Good morning, everyone (again).

Just been out for a bit. Feeling distinctly wintry.

Both main parties have incompetent leadership.

RochdalePioneers said:

Gardenwalker said:

rottenborough said:

Re: the polling:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1102856750405955584

He’s absolutely right.

Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance

On crime, especially that associated with youth, the point is made time and again that closing Youth Centres, clubs etc is probably more important than police prevention.
Who dunnit?

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

OldKingCole said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Gardenwalker said:

rottenborough said:

Re: the polling:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1102856750405955584

He’s absolutely right.

Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance

On crime, especially that associated with youth, the point is made time and again that closing Youth Centres, clubs etc is probably more important than police prevention.
Who dunnit?

Our village has a host of things for young people to do: not just kids, but teenagers as well. We have a very good leisure centre, clubs, and many activities. Yet we still have kids being asshats, burning things, causing low-level troubles.

Although access to activities is no doubt a help, it is a much deeper problem than that.

https://twitter.com/DharshiniDavid/status/1102869998933024769

Mr. Divvie, turning up on people's doorsteps during the night is damned cretinous behaviour.

Mr. Jessop, aye. Lack of youth clubs is no excuse for delinquency or crime. Still remember the shameful Sky interview with three masked thieves the night after they'd looted during the 2011 London 'riots', blaming cuts for their criminality.

Stereotomy said:

JosiasJessop said:

OldKingCole said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Gardenwalker said:

rottenborough said:

Re: the polling:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1102856750405955584

He’s absolutely right.

Of course he is. Anyone with a brain can see the direct cause and effect of destroy police numbers, resources, capabilities at a time when you are also smashing the support network available to the needy / vulnerable and the surge in crime and ASB. The police spelled out in detail some years ago to Home Secretary May that this would happen . And it has happened. And still she refuses to accept the horrors that her mismanagement have brought about.

I get that most Tories don't give a toss about the poor and needy. But bringing the police and with it law and order to it's knees, bringing out armed forces and veterans to a state of ineffectiveness, saying not only Fuck Business but continuing to impose unnecessary stress on business - at which point do Tories say enough?

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more. Some of you criticise me for that - but isn't the same true in reverse? This is the opportunity for the TIGgers - take the good technocrat elements of both parties, discard the ideology, be seen as competent. At at time when the two big parties are in competition to be as incompetent as possible, they do have a chance

On crime, especially that associated with youth, the point is made time and again that closing Youth Centres, clubs etc is probably more important than police prevention.
Who dunnit?

Our village has a host of things for young people to do: not just kids, but teenagers as well. We have a very good leisure centre, clubs, and many activities. Yet we still have kids being asshats, burning things, causing low-level troubles.

Although access to activities is no doubt a help, it is a much deeper problem than that.

Surely nobody would get involved with knife crime if there was a badminton court available

In fact there is evidence in London that the drug gangs use places like youth centres to recruit for county lines....which according to former chief constable in Manchester in the radio yesterday on the main driver of this knife violence.

The devil makes work for idle hands. Lack of appropriate recreational activities for teenagers will make inappropriate recreational activities attractive.

"there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues not to have the level of backing from his MPs as you’d expect an opposition leader to enjoy."

This is true, although it doesn't take much amendment for it to equally validly say " there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues to have [no more] backing from his MPs [than] you’d expect an opposition leader [6-8 points behind in the polls at a time when the government is deeply split on its flagship policy] to enjoy."

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

YBarddCwsc said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

kle4 said:

YBarddCwsc said:

HYUFD said:

It took Labour 13 years for centrists to regain control of the party after Foot was elected in 1980 and Militant gained influence

No, it took 3 years. Foot was elected leader in 1980, he left office in 1983, to be succeeded by Kinnock.

It took the SDP much longer to break the mould. In fact we're still waiting.

(I note it is acknowledged Tories who are so enthusiastic about the Labour moderates splitting. I wonder why ... I wonder why)

Just because they'd be happy doesn't mean it's not also a good idea. If the only reason someone wont split is because of hatred for another what a depressing situation that is.

I hope they both split more, but I think Watson and co have seen off the Tiggers. Those that are left see it as a fight to have.

Maybe a fight which they all but know will be lost and which will help eventually prepare the ground for a much bigger split.

The case for a split is that Labour is confirmed irredemably as an extremist party and as such its electoral destiny will follow the path trod earlier by the Parti Communiste Francaise.

I really doubt that is right. Nothing is irredeemable in politics.

The reason why Corby's position was strengthened was because he was electorally more successful than anyone ever imagined (albeit in a very odd election against a very poor opponent). Corby deserves credit for that.

But another GE defeat would see Corby in his allotment.

For sure, his successor is not going to be another Blair (thank God), but it will be someone like Thornberry, or ..... even Watson.

The Defenestration of Corbyn, whilst desirable imo, will not deal with the antisemitism which is now in the bones in some parts of the Party.

OldKingCole said:

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Divvie, turning up on people's doorsteps during the night is damned cretinous behaviour.

Mr. Jessop, aye. Lack of youth clubs is no excuse for delinquency or crime. Still remember the shameful Sky interview with three masked thieves the night after they'd looted during the 2011 London 'riots', blaming cuts for their criminality.

I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.

No one thing provides the whole answer. I don't think anyone would suggest that, but the point I was trying to make is that, while there are clearly not enough police, especially given other newer matters with which they have to deal, cutting youth services is at best extremely unhelpful.
The point was also made on TV yesterday that 'county lines' drug gangs selling, especially, cocaine are feeding a middle class habit..... a line or two snorted after dinner. There is, maybe, a case for chasing more county lines end customers.
There is also a very strong case for reviewing the laws relating to drugs of addiction.

To correct your last line (in my opinion)

There is a very strong case for reviewing the laws relating to drugs and legalisation of drugs.

JosiasJessop said:

I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.

Yeah, if the devilment is in you, it'll come out no matter what.

My boarding school had every recreational facility imaginable and I was still a delinquent. I once fired a freshly sharpened HB into the back of another boy's head from a homemade crossbow because I was bored in Bridge club.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

Brexit should be at the top of this list.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

+1

As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.

OblitusSumMe said:

david_herdson said:

"there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues not to have the level of backing from his MPs as you’d expect an opposition leader to enjoy."

This is true, although it doesn't take much amendment for it to equally validly say " there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues to have [no more] backing from his MPs [than] you’d expect an opposition leader [6-8 points behind in the polls at a time when the government is deeply split on its flagship policy] to enjoy."

I think there are also quite a substantial number of Labour MPs who are somewhat relieved that Corbyn is not leading in the polls. A modest election defeat followed by a new leader would be very welcome to them. Having to deal with Corbyn in Number 10 would be a torment.

I can't think of any other time when this has been true.

They must really be looking forward to Williamson leading the party.

OldKingCole said:

MattW said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Watson is interested in power. There is no advantage for Watson in Tigger-ing.

... unless he thinks that it will replace Labour, and is more to his advantage. (A machiavellian analysis).

Will it? No idea.

But sweet revenge if we have any Liberals who were there in 1920.

I was told, back in the 70's, as a Liberal agent, that I'd spent the last of the Lloyd George raised money... the way the guy was talking it was the sale of honours cash.
So can I claim the 'sweet revenge'? If of course, the event happens!

A footnote to Rinkagate is that Jeremy Thorpe also appeared to be selling honours. Mind you, the other parties have at least come close.

Number of minutes since labour antisemitism issue...0

Jewish Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge has expressed fresh concerns about how her party is handling accusations of anti-Semitism.
In a letter to Jeremy Corbyn, she claims she has been misled over assurances that his office was not involved in any disciplinary process.
"Either you have intentionally misled me or your staff have been misleading you," she complained.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1095710/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Theresa-May-no-deal-today-latest-date-Brussels

Brexit CIVIL WAR: Britons REACT to Brexit stalemate – 'Cameron needs his bottom SPANKED'

Trouble is he might enjoy it.

YBarddCwsc said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Maybe a fight which they all but know will be lost and which will help eventually prepare the ground for a much bigger split.

The case for a split is that Labour is confirmed irredemably as an extremist party and as such its electoral destiny will follow the path trod earlier by the Parti Communiste Francaise.

I really doubt that is right. Nothing is irredeemable in politics.

The reason why Corby's position was strengthened was because he was electorally more successful than anyone ever imagined (albeit in a very odd election against a very poor opponent). Corby deserves credit for that.

But another GE defeat would see Corbyn in his allotment.

For sure, his successor is not going to be another Blair (thank God), but it will be someone like Thornberry, or ..... even Watson.

Nothing is necessarily irredeemable (well, that's not quite true - I don't see how the Mongol empire can be put back together), but nor will everything necessarily be redeemed. Where are the 'Continuity' SDP, Veritas, Common Wealth, or BNP now? Some parties fail, even big parties. Look at the Canadian Conservatives, the Christian Democrats in many European countries (but notably Italy), perhaps the French Socialists or the UK Liberals. The Liberals did of course make a comeback, though are once again struggling, but could easily have folded in the 1950s, particularly when Churchill sought to bring them under the Tories' wing.

I agree that Corbyn probably can't survive another election defeat - but then he'll be into his 70s by then (his 70th birthday is toward the end of May). There'd be a perfectly good argument for his retiring solely on age grounds if he could quite easily be into his late 70s by the time of the election following. The big question then is who succeeds him. Labour got lucky in one sense in 1983 that their defeat was so bad that Tony Benn lost his seat and so wasn't eligible to stand for the leadership. Had he been (had, for that matter, Benn represented a safer seat), he might easily have won. What then for Labour's future? More defections to the SDP and a real revolution in 1987 after Labour backed the law-breaking of the NUM and centre-left voters migrated? It's possible. And from third place, it's a long and difficult road back.

Fortunately for Labour at the moment, the Lib Dems are also an irrelevance on a national level (unlike the mid-1980s, when they consistently polled 25%+), and TIG seem to have no strategic plan.

DecrepitJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Number of minutes since labour antisemitism issue...0

Jewish Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge has expressed fresh concerns about how her party is handling accusations of anti-Semitism.
In a letter to Jeremy Corbyn, she claims she has been misled over assurances that his office was not involved in any disciplinary process.
"Either you have intentionally misled me or your staff have been misleading you," she complained.

Number of pb threads this has been posted on this very morning: 2.

Only just been reported on bbc news...Pb always ahead of the news.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

Yep, a lot of irrational prejudice and confirmation bias.

https://twitter.com/timescorbyn/status/1102856747885187073?s=21

Theuniondivvie said:

Dura_Ace said:

JosiasJessop said:

I#m not against providing more and better clubs and activities for older kids and teenagers - I'm just unconvinced it's a full solution, or will automagically help the people most in need.

They might be part of a broader solutioin, but they're far from the whole answer.

Yeah, if the devilment is in you, it'll come out no matter what.

My boarding school had every recreational facility imaginable and I was still a delinquent. I once fired a freshly sharpened HB into the back of another boy's head from a homemade crossbow because I was bored in Bridge club.

I hope it was one of those pencils with a rubber on the end of it.

You mean they were that desperate for contraceptives??!

OblitusSumMe said:

david_herdson said:

"there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues not to have the level of backing from his MPs as you’d expect an opposition leader to enjoy."

This is true, although it doesn't take much amendment for it to equally validly say " there’s little doubt that Corbyn continues to have [no more] backing from his MPs [than] you’d expect an opposition leader [6-8 points behind in the polls at a time when the government is deeply split on its flagship policy] to enjoy."

I think there are also quite a substantial number of Labour MPs who are somewhat relieved that Corbyn is not leading in the polls. A modest election defeat followed by a new leader would be very welcome to them. Having to deal with Corbyn in Number 10 would be a torment.

I can't think of any other time when this has been true.

Lansbury.

Not that it was at all likely but had an avowedly pacifist leader led Labour into the 1935 election (or 1936, had Labour been polling well in by-elections causing Baldwin to delay), and won it, there would have been grave consequences for the country and the world.

DougSeal said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

+1

As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.

Congratulations on holding a grievance for so long that everyone involved in the policy is long-since retired, if not dead. Perhaps you might like to add opposition to the Great Reform Act too?

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

Yep, a lot of irrational prejudice and confirmation bias.

Nice he managed to get in a boast about his personal wealth lol. Typical socialist!

Casino_Royale said:

TGOHF said:

"The treatment of the miners"

Christ - time team stuff.

What about the behaviour of the miners towards the electricity users of the Uk and the police ?

I’m surprised he didn’t mention the corn laws.

I forgot about the corn laws. But weren't the Tories famously on both sides of that one?
Perhaps I am showing my age, but I was a kid in the North East of England in the mid 80s so the miners strike was kind of a big deal.

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/timescorbyn/status/1102856747885187073?s=21

Is his first name of swedish heritage or from ? אסא

Anorak said:

DougSeal said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

+1

As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.

Section 28 was an abomination. It's gone and now the Tory Party are largely ok with LBGT rights. I cannot speak for their membership, of course.

I note with some irony the Labour MP for Birmingham Ladywood has been campaigning against LGBT awareness lesson in schools.

Indeed. Section 28 was wrong but then it was a Tory PM who legalised gay marriage. So times have changed.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

BiB - nothing to stop you donating to HMRC. All proceeds greatly received.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

Do you still hate the Germans for the Blitz??

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Casino_Royale said:

TGOHF said:

"The treatment of the miners"

Christ - time team stuff.

What about the behaviour of the miners towards the electricity users of the Uk and the police ?

I’m surprised he didn’t mention the corn laws.

I forgot about the corn laws. But weren't the Tories famously on both sides of that one?
Perhaps I am showing my age, but I was a kid in the North East of England in the mid 80s so the miners strike was kind of a big deal.

The miners' strike and Thatcher are still a big deal for Labour activists who want to refight old fights they lost but (wrongly) believe they were in the right about, and want a distraction from current problems. The issue is still referenced in Wakefield Council meetings every year.

The Tories were on both sides of the Corn Laws debate but it was the side (Peel and followers, including Gladstone), who broke away and ultimately merged into what became the Liberal party, so you can have that issue from 173 years ago as well.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Theuniondivvie said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

Decent list.
I'd add the creepy claims to progressiveness in an effort to convince the gullible that they're not the same old Tories. Of course the last two and a half years have been a great cleansing corrective to that auld bollocks.

Possibly similar to creepy claims from Nationalists that they are inclusive, with their efforts to convince the gullible that they are not really the nasty, hate filled bigots that we all know they are!

Pavlov's yapper kicks off again.

You can probably get some therapy based treatment for this OCD thing you have, if the Tories haven't reamed out the budget for your mental health trust.

On mining, Labour closed plenty of pits !

david_herdson said:

DougSeal said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Yes, I hate Corbyn. But I hate the Tories more.

Why?

I guess everyone has their own reasons. Here's my own personal list:
Windrush scandal
Go Home vans
Cuts to school spending
Destroying local services by cutting council funding by half
The treatment of the miners
The poll tax
Testing the poll tax out in Scotland
Section 28
Young Conservatives with hang Mandela badges
Margaret Thatcher
Margaret Thatcher's voice
Tory attitude towards Ireland
Fox hunting
Welfare reforms that have led directly to deaths
Food banks
Cutting taxes for people like me who already have plenty of money
Boris Johnson and his garden bridge
Privatised trains
George Osborne's face

I'm sure I've missed loads and others will have their own greatest hits to add to the list.

+1

As a teenager, becoming aware of/interested in politics for the first time I heard about Section 28 and thought "how can anyone be so f**king spiteful". Since I reached voting age I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green on one occasion but I swore as a 14 year old I would never, ever vote Tory because of that one section. Personally I don't give a monkeys about fox hunting, and am ambivalent about renationalising the railway, but there's enough else on @OnlyLivingBoy 's list to fill anyone's list of reasons, particularly Ireland and welfare reform for me.

Congratulations on holding a grievance for so long that everyone involved in the policy is long-since retired, if not dead. Perhaps you might like to add opposition to the Great Reform Act too?

That party’s current leader, our present Prime Minister, then Shadow Education Minister, called the Lords’ defeat of Section 28’s attempted repeal in 2000 as being a “victory for common sense”. So, no, the highest echelons of the current party have been involved in seeking to retain the policy on the statute book. They don’t change. Cameron had a stab at changing them but it didn’t stick.

Pulpstar said:

On mining, Labour closed plenty of pits !

IIRC more were closed during the Wilson/Callaghan years than in the period from 1979 to the Miners' Strike