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Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
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The Corbynistas seem desperate to add Jess to the listAramintaMoonbeamQC said:#defectionwatch update - Twitter rumour:
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/10990224106601472020 -
Who knows about May. I'm sure everyone if given a choice would happily have her in the trenches alongside us. A formidable lady. I think it'd have helped to have something of the Blair and Cameron smarminess to oil the wheels. Her main failing though must be in the people that she gets into her cabinet. She seems to have no control over any of them. David Davis should never have been allowed out. Liam Fox is a poor choice too. Boris could be deployed to great effect, but letting him just wander off wasn't good.The_Taxman said:
I agree about defection, sometimes it is necessary for instance if a leader is a pathological megalomaniac who works against the national interest i.e. Corbyn.
If the person is PM that is even worse like Gordon Brown but I don't remember him losing MPs by defection more was the pity. To be fair to Brown he was not as bad as Corbyn, nowhere near he was partisan but never a traitor but I do think his economic record was reckless and showed little regard toward sustainability. Brown thought it was all a game. In contrast I don't know what to make of the current PM!
May as a PM has shown very little leadership in terms of marshaling her cabinet. She's been beyond equal in terms of braving-out storms.0 -
Carswell seems to be very quite these days! I cannot say he or Reckless were ever well thought of by me!viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
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What if he proposes Remain/Labour Brexit (ie. permanent CU) as the options.nico67 said:
If he thinks Labour Remainers will fall for that then he’s even more deluded than I thought . The conference motion said Remain on the ballot . He either backs that or will see a complete implosion of the party.ralphmalph said:
I was thinking his plan could be, vote down May Deal. Say that is dead cannot be on the ref and say ref must be his plan/no deal. He could propose this knowing full well that the Tory party would block it immediately especially as he can get some of his mates in the PLP to vote with the Tories/DUP as well.nico67 said:
He really is demented . Unless he backs a second vote with Remain as an option there will be a flood of MPs leaving the party . And he can’t have his deal on the ballot as it hasn’t even been agreed to by the EU.ralphmalph said:In response to being asked about the comments McDonnell made on a second ref, Corbyns answer was interesting. He said the Labour Party are discussing as to whether to have the Labour plan for Brexit as an option. He of course was not asked what the other option/options would be. Perhaps no deal versus Corbyn plan.
Then second ref voted down and he can say well I tried to get a second ref and this leaves May holding the Brexit baby and looking powerless in the house to get what she wants through.
He wont' be to blame for the Tories voting it down.
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"Widely thought"?viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
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He's been gobby on Twitter this weekThe_Taxman said:Carswell seems to be very quite these days!
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He was busy. Potatoes don't dig themselves, y'know. Stop bothering the silly old man with such impertinent questions...williamglenn said:
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Almost seems like it is a question in the final bit there. "Can we just make it clear we don't accept anti semitism?" without worrying about whether many of those affected believe it to be true, let's just make it clear.williamglenn said:0 -
The problem for the Tories is there is no one with charisma to replace her that I can see, which might have been the antidote to her for the Tories. Dynamic PMs seem often to be replaced by dull technocrats from the same party think: Thatcher to Major or Blair to Brown or even Cameron to May. Usually the dull PM takes the party to the electoral rocks. With Corbyn as LOTO this bends all the fabric of political space.Omnium said:
Who knows about May. I'm sure everyone if given a choice would happily have her in the trenches alongside us. A formidable lady. I think it'd have helped to have something of the Blair and Cameron smarminess to oil the wheels. Her main failing though must be in the people that she gets into her cabinet. She seems to have no control over any of them. David Davis should never have been allowed out. Liam Fox is a poor choice too. Boris could be deployed to great effect, but letting him just wander off wasn't good.The_Taxman said:
I agree about defection, sometimes it is necessary for instance if a leader is a pathological megalomaniac who works against the national interest i.e. Corbyn.
If the person is PM that is even worse like Gordon Brown but I don't remember him losing MPs by defection more was the pity. To be fair to Brown he was not as bad as Corbyn, nowhere near he was partisan but never a traitor but I do think his economic record was reckless and showed little regard toward sustainability. Brown thought it was all a game. In contrast I don't know what to make of the current PM!
May as a PM has shown very little leadership in terms of marshaling her cabinet. She's been beyond equal in terms of braving-out storms.
I cannot really see anyone with charisma to take over from the current PM. Labour had Chukka Umunna until he left for the independents. The Tories and Labour have a serious lack of star material at the moment. Before anyone says Boris Johnson I think he has shown that he would have difficulty finding his way out of a paper bag. Gadzooks!0 -
So what you're saying, if I understand correctly, is that the LibDems in Scotland are clearly very well funded,malcolmg said:
Libdem conference in Scotland has managed to get about 60 attendees in a 700 capacity hall, surprised that many are there.El_Capitano said:
Indeed. There was very little Lib Dem campaigning in Witney for GE2017 because it wasn't a target seat and all local resources had been diverted to OxWAb, and the Lib Dem organisation locally isn't strong enough to win the seat for the foreseeable.TheWhiteRabbit said:
She fell back, relative to the by-election, at GE2017.El_Capitano said:
It's not infeasible that a centrist could take Witney at some point, and I'm not the only local to think so:MikeSmithson said:
If Mr. Woodward had not switched and created a vacancy in Witney at GE2001 then Cameron might never have been elected leader and PM - and we might never have had Brexittlg86 said:Shaun Woodward should have called a by-election in Witney, just for a laugh.
https://twitter.com/isabeloakeshott/status/789391672148799488
Liz Leffman isn't standing next time round as it happens, but if TIG were to put up a candidate, who knows what might transpire...
But the seat's demographics are changing, becoming more urban and within the ambit of Oxford - which reduces the Tories' two advantages (the rural areas and Carterton's loyalty to the military). In 10/15 years' time I don't expect it to be such a safe seat.0 -
I think that will be the offer if there is a GE.Not sure how they are going to play it otherwise.No_Offence_Alan said:What if he proposes Remain/Labour Brexit (ie. permanent CU) as the options.
He wont' be to blame for the Tories voting it down.
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It's actually both Brexiteers and Remainers blocking Brexit, but it is true that leavers seeking perfection trying to stop remainers who havebacked leave options is definitely not helping us, well, leave.Scott_P said:0 -
If she can be identified, that member faces expulsion surely!HYUFD said:0 -
Anecdote alert: one of my Facebook friends (40, in the East Midlands, business owner, old school Tory) has just put up a Facebook post describing himself as a Leaver at heart but now believes that Britain should remain for now.0
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Ok. Arron Banks in "The Bad Boys of Brexit" points out that Carswell was continuously downloading large amounts of data to an external server, including but not limited to the lists of individual addresses of those thought to be susceptible to voting for UKIP. He also points out that when those addresses were later targeted by UKIP agents for follow-up, they were no longer. Arron also accuses Carswell of leaking to the anti-UKIP press. If memory serves similar observations are made in the Tim Shipman book.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Widely thought"?viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Parenthetically, have you ever seen Glengarry Glen Ross?
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Why are you quoting Arron Banks? Is he a reliable source?viewcode said:
Ok. Arron Banks in "The Bad Boys of Brexit" points out that Carswell was continuously downloading large amounts of data to an external server, including but not limited to the lists of individual addresses of those thought to be susceptible to voting for UKIP. He also points out that when those addresses were later targeted by UKIP agents for follow-up, they were no longer. Arron also accuses Carswell of leaking to the anti-UKIP press. If memory serves similar observations are made in the Tim Shipman book.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Widely thought"?viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Parenthetically, have you ever seen Glengarry Glen Ross?0 -
Chris is an outrider who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet because he wanted to pursue more left-wing ideas than Corbyn and McDonnell were comfortable with. He can't really be shut up, and of course he makes an interesting interviewee, always up for an aggressive quote, so gets invited a lot. Quiet loyalists, not so much.Roger said:I know Nick thinks Corbyn is a nice person and he's known him for many years.
But if that's the case why is he allowing the likes of Chris Williamson to speak on his and Labour's behalf?
it makes the party look like a bunch of thugs.0 -
This was arranged weeks ago, and is his third visit to Broxtowe.Omnium said:
Dr Palmer's views will be interesting.Cookie said:
Ooh, I used to live just around the corner from there. There are at least 4 decent pubs within 5 minutes' walk.rottenborough said:
It's a weird message - he's taking on the Tiggers by attacking an ex-Tory. Surely he should have been doing this when she was a Tory. So really he's taking on the Tiggers, but failing to take them on man-to-man.
Corbyn needs a quiet home well away from the hustle and bustle of reality. His mind moved in twenty years ago.
As Cookie says, the pubs are good!0 -
Jess Phillips is another of the growing group of women politicians whom deserve a party worth belonging to. Who knows, they might even get one.Scott_P said:
The Corbynistas seem desperate to add Jess to the listAramintaMoonbeamQC said:#defectionwatch update - Twitter rumour:
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1099022410660147202
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The Tories have a good supply of possible leaders. Labour have more issues there. If (say) Starmer had appeared as a Tory he'd have been in the ranks - not catapulted to the front bench. I don't want to be unfair to the poor girl, but Rebecca Long-Bailey turning out as a spokeswoman for Labour's economic policy beggars belief. She's not a girl, she's a fully grown woman, but I'm not sure her economic views are fully grown.The_Taxman said:
The problem for the Tories is there is no one with charisma to replace her that I can see, which might have been the antidote to her for the Tories. Dynamic PMs seem often to be replaced by dull technocrats from the same party think: Thatcher to Major or Blair to Brown or even Cameron to May. Usually the dull PM takes the party to the electoral rocks. With Corbyn as LOTO this bends all the fabric of political space.Omnium said:
Who knows about May. I'm sure everyone if given a choice would happily have her in the trenches alongside us. A formidable lady. I think it'd have helped to have something of the Blair and Cameron smarminess to oil the wheels. Her main failing though must be in the people that she gets into her cabinet. She seems to have no control over any of them. David Davis should never have been allowed out. Liam Fox is a poor choice too. Boris could be deployed to great effect, but letting him just wander off wasn't good.The_Taxman said:
I agree about defection, sometimes it is necessary for instance if a leader is a pathological megalomaniac who works against the national interest i.e. Corbyn.
If the person is PM that is even worse like Gordon Brown but I don't remember him losing MPs by defection more was the pity. To be fair to Brown he was not as bad as Corbyn, nowhere near he was partisan but never a traitor but I do think his economic record was reckless and showed little regard toward sustainability. Brown thought it was all a game. In contrast I don't know what to make of the current PM!
May as a PM has shown very little leadership in terms of marshaling her cabinet. She's been beyond equal in terms of braving-out storms.
I cannot really see anyone with charisma to take over from the current PM. Labour had Chukka Umunna until he left for the independents. The Tories and Labour have a serious lack of star material at the moment. Before anyone says Boris Johnson I think he has shown that he would have difficulty finding his way out of a paper bag. Gadzooks!
The Tory benches contain perhaps 25 possible and respectable candidates for PM. The Labour benches contain far fewer.0 -
He's a reliable source for Arron Banks. In fact, given his general obnoxiousness and predilection for calling a spade a stupid fucking c**t spade, he is an extremely reliable source for Arron Banks, as he is unlikely to dissemble.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you quoting Arron Banks? Is he a reliable source?viewcode said:
Ok. Arron Banks in "The Bad Boys of Brexit" points out that Carswell was continuously downloading large amounts of data to an external server, including but not limited to the lists of individual addresses of those thought to be susceptible to voting for UKIP. He also points out that when those addresses were later targeted by UKIP agents for follow-up, they were no longer. Arron also accuses Carswell of leaking to the anti-UKIP press. If memory serves similar observations are made in the Tim Shipman book.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Widely thought"?viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Parenthetically, have you ever seen Glengarry Glen Ross?0 -
Slightly off-topic, a poster that's been doing the rounds amongst my more febrile remainer friends about that march (on my birthday!) has the wrong year on it, and refers to last year's march ...justin124 said:
If she can be identified, that member faces expulsion surely!HYUFD said:
I really hope they don't go on the wrong date . 0 -
Wales second referendum poll:
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-02-22/polls-shows-welsh-voters-prefer-mays-brexit-deal-to-leaving-eu-without-a-deal/0 -
The Birmingham Lab MPs issued a joint statement saying they weren't resigning, but who would blame her?Scott_P said:
The Corbynistas seem desperate to add Jess to the listAramintaMoonbeamQC said:#defectionwatch update - Twitter rumour:
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1099022410660147202
The Corbyn twitter fandom have quite the problem with capable women, don't they?0 -
Are there any reliable sources for the accusations against Carswell?viewcode said:
He's a reliable source for Arron Banks. In fact, given his general obnoxiousness and predilection for calling a spade a stupid fucking c**t spade, he is an extremely reliable source for Arron Banks, as he is unlikely to dissemble.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you quoting Arron Banks? Is he a reliable source?viewcode said:
Ok. Arron Banks in "The Bad Boys of Brexit" points out that Carswell was continuously downloading large amounts of data to an external server, including but not limited to the lists of individual addresses of those thought to be susceptible to voting for UKIP. He also points out that when those addresses were later targeted by UKIP agents for follow-up, they were no longer. Arron also accuses Carswell of leaking to the anti-UKIP press. If memory serves similar observations are made in the Tim Shipman book.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Widely thought"?viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Parenthetically, have you ever seen Glengarry Glen Ross?
Weasel words are words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful had been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated. Phrases such as "some say", "many scholars believe", "it is widely thought", "many are of the opinion" etc. are example of weasel terms.0 -
Agreed - rather like Oliver Letwin in that.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, Keith Joseph was a quite remarkable politician, one of the most thoughtful since the war. He wasn't afraid to change his mind when the facts seemed to change (notably over state intervention), and he was very rare amongst politicians in intelligently answering questions - pausing to think exactly what he wanted to say before saying it, rather than launching straight into either platitudes or the party line.williamglenn said:
That's very unflattering to Keith Joseph. Hannan is a pure fantasist.viewcode said:
Not really. The leaver Keith Joseph is Daniel Hannan. Gove is more (thinks for a minute) Geoffrey Howe? Margaret Thatcher?TudorRose said:
But to continue the Thatcher comparisons; isn't he more Keith Joseph material?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 67, interesting.
We're not similar in political perspectives generally, but I agree Gove has a credible shot. He's perhaps the best placed man to try and hold the party together, and uniting the wings is suddenly much more important than it might have been.0 -
True, I suppose charisma is subjective!Omnium said:
The Tories have a good supply of possible leaders. Labour have more issues there. If (say) Starmer had appeared as a Tory he'd have been in the ranks - not catapulted to the front bench. I don't want to be unfair to the poor girl, but Rebecca Long-Bailey turning out as a spokeswoman for Labour's economic policy beggars belief. She's not a girl, she's a fully grown woman, but I'm not sure her economic views are fully grown.The_Taxman said:
The problem for the Tories is there is no one with charisma to replace her that I can see, which might have been the antidote to her for the Tories. Dynamic PMs seem often to be replaced by dull technocrats from the same party think: Thatcher to Major or Blair to Brown or even Cameron to May. Usually the dull PM takes the party to the electoral rocks. With Corbyn as LOTO this bends all the fabric of political space.Omnium said:
Who knows about May. I'm sure everyone if given a choice would happily have her in the trenches alongside us. A formidable lady. I think it'd have helped to have something of the Blair and Cameron smarminess to oil the wheels. Her main failing though must be in the people that she gets into her cabinet. She seems to have no control over any of them. David Davis should never have been allowed out. Liam Fox is a poor choice too. Boris could be deployed to great effect, but letting him just wander off wasn't good.The_Taxman said:
I agree about defection, sometimes it is necessary for instance if a leader is a pathological megalomaniac who works against the national interest i.e. Corbyn.
If the person is PM that is even worse like Gordon Brown but I don't remember him losing MPs by defection more was the pity. To be fair to Brown he was not as bad as Corbyn, nowhere near he was partisan but never a traitor but I do think his economic record was reckless and showed little regard toward sustainability. Brown thought it was all a game. In contrast I don't know what to make of the current PM!
May as a PM has shown very little leadership in terms of marshaling her cabinet. She's been beyond equal in terms of braving-out storms.
I cannot really see anyone with charisma to take over from the current PM. Labour had Chukka Umunna until he left for the independents. The Tories and Labour have a serious lack of star material at the moment. Before anyone says Boris Johnson I think he has shown that he would have difficulty finding his way out of a paper bag. Gadzooks!
The Tory benches contain perhaps 25 possible and respectable candidates for PM. The Labour benches contain far fewer.
It always amuses me seeing the Defence Secretary on the TV as I think he looks like a schoolboy who has been catapulted into a serious position.0 -
I've just quoted you a reliable source for the fact of the accusation. If I had had a reliable source for the veracity of the accusation. I would have used a word other than "thought".Sunil_Prasannan said:
Are there any reliable sources for the accusations against Carswell?viewcode said:
He's a reliable source for Arron Banks. In fact, given his general obnoxiousness and predilection for calling a spade a stupid fucking c**t spade, he is an extremely reliable source for Arron Banks, as he is unlikely to dissemble.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you quoting Arron Banks? Is he a reliable source?viewcode said:
Ok. Arron Banks in "The Bad Boys of Brexit" points out that Carswell was continuously downloading large amounts of data to an external server, including but not limited to the lists of individual addresses of those thought to be susceptible to voting for UKIP. He also points out that when those addresses were later targeted by UKIP agents for follow-up, they were no longer. Arron also accuses Carswell of leaking to the anti-UKIP press. If memory serves similar observations are made in the Tim Shipman book.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Widely thought"?viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Parenthetically, have you ever seen Glengarry Glen Ross?
Weasel words are words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful had been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated. Phrases such as "some say", "many scholars believe", "it is widely thought", "many are of the opinion" etc. are example of weasel terms.0 -
Arron Banks is just one bloke, so not sure why you used "widely thought"?viewcode said:
I've just quoted you a reliable source for the fact of the accusation. If I had a reliable source for the veracity of the accusation. I would have used a word other than "thought".Sunil_Prasannan said:
Are there any reliable sources for the accusations against Carswell?viewcode said:
He's a reliable source for Arron Banks. In fact, given his general obnoxiousness and predilection for calling a spade a stupid fucking c**t spade, he is an extremely reliable source for Arron Banks, as he is unlikely to dissemble.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you quoting Arron Banks? Is he a reliable source?viewcode said:
Ok. Arron Banks in "The Bad Boys of Brexit" points out that Carswell was continuously downloading large amounts of data to an external server, including but not limited to the lists of individual addresses of those thought to be susceptible to voting for UKIP. He also points out that when those addresses were later targeted by UKIP agents for follow-up, they were no longer. Arron also accuses Carswell of leaking to the anti-UKIP press. If memory serves similar observations are made in the Tim Shipman book.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Widely thought"?viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Parenthetically, have you ever seen Glengarry Glen Ross?
Weasel words are words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful had been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated. Phrases such as "some say", "many scholars believe", "it is widely thought", "many are of the opinion" etc. are example of weasel terms.
By whom, where, when?
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There are people in the Labour Party more left wing than Corbyn and McDonnell?NickPalmer said:
Chris is an outrider who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet because he wanted to pursue more left-wing ideas than Corbyn and McDonnell were comfortable with. He can't really be shut up, and of course he makes an interesting interviewee, always up for an aggressive quote, so gets invited a lot. Quiet loyalists, not so much.Roger said:I know Nick thinks Corbyn is a nice person and he's known him for many years.
But if that's the case why is he allowing the likes of Chris Williamson to speak on his and Labour's behalf?
it makes the party look like a bunch of thugs.
Well that's scary.0 -
Chris is an odious thug - if you think otherwise, you must be as thick as JC.NickPalmer said:
Chris is an outrider who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet because he wanted to pursue more left-wing ideas than Corbyn and McDonnell were comfortable with. He can't really be shut up, and of course he makes an interesting interviewee, always up for an aggressive quote, so gets invited a lot. Quiet loyalists, not so much.Roger said:I know Nick thinks Corbyn is a nice person and he's known him for many years.
But if that's the case why is he allowing the likes of Chris Williamson to speak on his and Labour's behalf?
it makes the party look like a bunch of thugs.
Sadly the Labour party has become a place for racists and thugs. There is no way back for the sane wing of the party. Thugs and anti-Semites are ruling the roost.
As of today, I have torn up my membership card. A very sad day...
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Blimey! Must have been a difficult decision!murali_s said:
Chris is an odious thug - if you think otherwise, you must be as thick as JC.NickPalmer said:
Chris is an outrider who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet because he wanted to pursue more left-wing ideas than Corbyn and McDonnell were comfortable with. He can't really be shut up, and of course he makes an interesting interviewee, always up for an aggressive quote, so gets invited a lot. Quiet loyalists, not so much.Roger said:I know Nick thinks Corbyn is a nice person and he's known him for many years.
But if that's the case why is he allowing the likes of Chris Williamson to speak on his and Labour's behalf?
it makes the party look like a bunch of thugs.
Sadly the Labour party has become a place for racists and thugs. There is no way back for the sane wing of the party. Thugs and anti-Semites are ruling the roost.
As of today, I have torn up my membership card. A very sad day...0 -
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Given a choice between a Labour MP who doesn’t support a second vote and Anna Soubry who does then I’d be in the same camp as that twitter highlighted earlier in the thread .
I would vote Soubry without question . EU membership is a red line and Corbyn is deluded if he thinks Remainers will just swallow both his pathetic Remain efforts during the EU ref campaign and now his refusal to follow the conference motion .
0 -
Labour seeks to stem antisemitism crisis...
Party in advanced talks with Lord Falconer to appoint him to review its handling of antisemitism and other complaints
At least this time the inquirer already has his peerage.0 -
At any given moment in time, there is always someone tearing up their membership card on the internet.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Blimey! Must have been a difficult decision!murali_s said:
Chris is an odious thug - if you think otherwise, you must be as thick as JC.NickPalmer said:
Chris is an outrider who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet because he wanted to pursue more left-wing ideas than Corbyn and McDonnell were comfortable with. He can't really be shut up, and of course he makes an interesting interviewee, always up for an aggressive quote, so gets invited a lot. Quiet loyalists, not so much.Roger said:I know Nick thinks Corbyn is a nice person and he's known him for many years.
But if that's the case why is he allowing the likes of Chris Williamson to speak on his and Labour's behalf?
it makes the party look like a bunch of thugs.
Sadly the Labour party has become a place for racists and thugs. There is no way back for the sane wing of the party. Thugs and anti-Semites are ruling the roost.
As of today, I have torn up my membership card. A very sad day...0 -
We don’t want Mann as a TIG. All others, very welcome indeed.Scott_P said:
The Corbynistas seem desperate to add Jess to the listAramintaMoonbeamQC said:#defectionwatch update - Twitter rumour:
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/10990224106601472020 -
I would not want to attend a piss up in a brewery with this lot in charge as I fear I would go home sober!Scott_P said:0 -
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I think you are getting a bit excited there. We've probably already seen the end of the torrent of defections.Big_G_NorthWales said:0 -
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williamglenn said:
Wales second referendum poll:
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-02-22/polls-shows-welsh-voters-prefer-mays-brexit-deal-to-leaving-eu-without-a-deal/
Official PB Welsh Poll Klaxon/Alert.
Taking one for the team. A gentleman always sounds the horn, when a Welsh poll arrives.0 -
There's a new EU deal? That's news to me.Scott_P said:
The Welsh are quite sensible, the ERG and government incompetence show it is time to change one's mind.williamglenn said:Wales second referendum poll:
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-02-22/polls-shows-welsh-voters-prefer-mays-brexit-deal-to-leaving-eu-without-a-deal/
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I was being a bit naughty to Justin !!!!!kle4 said:
I think you are getting a bit excited there. We've probably already seen the end of the torrent of defections.Big_G_NorthWales said:
However, I expect we will see more defections0 -
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Cookie
Last time I was up there, I was supping in Wollaton. Not a million miles away but in the neighbouring seat I believe?0 -
Wales was just a tad more Brexity than the country as a whole: 47 Remain, 53 Leave._Anazina_ said:williamglenn said:Wales second referendum poll:
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-02-22/polls-shows-welsh-voters-prefer-mays-brexit-deal-to-leaving-eu-without-a-deal/
Official PB Welsh Poll Klaxon/Alert.
Taking one for the team. A gentleman always sounds the horn, when a Welsh poll arrives.0 -
Good for them. It is time the centre minded conservative mps took a stance and stood up to the insane ERG.Scott_P said:0 -
Kle4
Confucius he say, “where the Welsh lead, the world follows”0 -
Scott_P said:
I’m getting a bit confused now.
Are we to have the Cooper-Boles Amendment Vote first, and then the Meaningful Vote proper?
I note the DUP are saying that their support for the Deal is lookingly highly unlikely at this point, and they seem to have a habit of not changing their minds.0 -
Yes, it is! Nottingham South, I think. Quite posh, one of the only two wards in the whole of Nottingham not to be entirely Labour._Anazina_ said:Cookie
Last time I was up there, I was supping in Wollaton. Not a million miles away but in the neighbouring seat I believe?0 -
Why would the ERG care if three ardent remain Ministers resign? I would have thought it would be another champagne reception.Scott_P said:0 -
On what proportion of QT shows since the referendum has the number of leave voters on the QT panel exceeded the number of remain voters on the QT panel?Alistair said:I see question time had a UKIP parliamentary candidate as a "generic audience member of the public who was given a long response to the panel" again.
Just amazing how this keeps happening by pure random chance.0 -
Insanity aboundsralphmalph said:
Why would the ERG care if three ardent remain Ministers resign? I would have thought it would be another champagne reception.Scott_P said:0 -
When did they last have an MP?Sunil_Prasannan said:
When did UKIP last have a panellist?Alistair said:I see question time had a UKIP parliamentary candidate as a "generic audience member of the public who was given a long response to the panel" again.
Just amazing how this keeps happening by pure random chance.-1 -
The Labour candidate is a Remainer too. It's a quirk of Broxtowe that it voted to Leave but it has only had strongly pro-EU MPs for the last 45 years (23 years Jim Lester, 13 years me, 8 years Anna).nico67 said:Given a choice between a Labour MP who doesn’t support a second vote and Anna Soubry who does then I’d be in the same camp as that twitter highlighted earlier in the thread .
I would vote Soubry without question . EU membership is a red line and Corbyn is deluded if he thinks Remainers will just swallow both his pathetic Remain efforts during the EU ref campaign and now his refusal to follow the conference motion .
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Did just don't pay their bills.rcs1000 said:
So what you're saying, if I understand correctly, is that the LibDems in Scotland are clearly very well funded,malcolmg said:
Libdem conference in Scotland has managed to get about 60 attendees in a 700 capacity hall, surprised that many are there.El_Capitano said:
Indeed. There was very little Lib Dem campaigning in Witney for GE2017 because it wasn't a target seat and all local resources had been diverted to OxWAb, and the Lib Dem organisation locally isn't strong enough to win the seat for the foreseeable.TheWhiteRabbit said:
She fell back, relative to the by-election, at GE2017.El_Capitano said:
It's not infeasible that a centrist could take Witney at some point, and I'm not the only local to think so:MikeSmithson said:
If Mr. Woodward had not switched and created a vacancy in Witney at GE2001 then Cameron might never have been elected leader and PM - and we might never have had Brexittlg86 said:Shaun Woodward should have called a by-election in Witney, just for a laugh.
https://twitter.com/isabeloakeshott/status/789391672148799488
Liz Leffman isn't standing next time round as it happens, but if TIG were to put up a candidate, who knows what might transpire...
But the seat's demographics are changing, becoming more urban and within the ambit of Oxford - which reduces the Tories' two advantages (the rural areas and Carterton's loyalty to the military). In 10/15 years' time I don't expect it to be such a safe seat.0 -
Well, my deepest sympathies, and I wish you a speedy recovery.Torby_Fennel said:
Yes, it's evidently true that they didn't feel at home in the Conservative Party of post 2016. They did, as they've made very clear, feel at home in the pre 2016 Conservative Party.Luckyguy1983 said:
Well I'm sure in many circumstances they're nice people and I'm glad they have their fans (though not many of them seem to be Conservatives). Perhaps we can all agree that they weren't at home in the Tory Party and it's a good thing for all concerned that they've moved on.
My own cut-off point was at around the same time... though I was just a (mostly) Conservative voter rather than a member. Now I'm an active Liberal Democrat member in my local branch.
0 -
This may be an unpopular opinion, but IMHO the worst of all worlds is delaying the withdrawal.Scott_P said:
Business and the economy are crying out for certainty, one way or the other. I can see why, superficially, the can kicking option is attractive but it will just lead to more deferred decisions. We need an answer, badly.0 -
Well, Banks is something of a wide boy...Sunil_Prasannan said:
Arron Banks is just one bloke, so not sure why you used "widely thought"?viewcode said:
I've just quoted you a reliable source for the fact of the accusation. If I had a reliable source for the veracity of the accusation. I would have used a word other than "thought".Sunil_Prasannan said:
Are there any reliable sources for the accusations against Carswell?viewcode said:
He's a reliable source for Arron Banks. In fact, given his general obnoxiousness and predilection for calling a spade a stupid fucking c**t spade, he is an extremely reliable source for Arron Banks, as he is unlikely to dissemble.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you quoting Arron Banks? Is he a reliable source?viewcode said:
Ok. Arron Banks in "The Bad Boys of Brexit" points out that Carswell was continuously downloading large amounts of data to an external server, including but not limited to the lists of individual addresses of those thought to be susceptible to voting for UKIP. He also points out that when those addresses were later targeted by UKIP agents for follow-up, they were no longer. Arron also accuses Carswell of leaking to the anti-UKIP press. If memory serves similar observations are made in the Tim Shipman book.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Widely thought"?viewcode said:
Given that Carswell is widely thought to have been smuggling data out of the building whilst nominally a UKIP MP, perhaps that wasn't the best example.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.Penddu said:Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Parenthetically, have you ever seen Glengarry Glen Ross?
Weasel words are words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful had been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated. Phrases such as "some say", "many scholars believe", "it is widely thought", "many are of the opinion" etc. are example of weasel terms.
0 -
T
It’s a nice spot, Nick. I have friends there, also in Ilkeston, and also Bramcote Hills.NickPalmer said:
Yes, it is! Nottingham South, I think. Quite posh, one of the only two wards in the whole of Nottingham not to be entirely Labour._Anazina_ said:Cookie
Last time I was up there, I was supping in Wollaton. Not a million miles away but in the neighbouring seat I believe?0 -
The champagne is what finally disillusioned me with JRM. Proper posh tories drink champagne because it is there, not to bloody celebrate things. What is he going to do on brexit day, hire a stretch limo for his mates?ralphmalph said:
Why would the ERG care if three ardent remain Ministers resign? I would have thought it would be another champagne reception.Scott_P said:0 -
I didn't know Charlie Falconer had ever resognedScott_P said:How long before he resigns...
https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1099045298834419714 0 -
I suspect it is one of those seats that has flipped to remain in recent timesNickPalmer said:
The Labour candidate is a Remainer too. It's a quirk of Broxtowe that it voted to Leave but it has only had strongly pro-EU MPs for the last 45 years (23 years Jim Lester, 13 years me, 8 years Anna).nico67 said:Given a choice between a Labour MP who doesn’t support a second vote and Anna Soubry who does then I’d be in the same camp as that twitter highlighted earlier in the thread .
I would vote Soubry without question . EU membership is a red line and Corbyn is deluded if he thinks Remainers will just swallow both his pathetic Remain efforts during the EU ref campaign and now his refusal to follow the conference motion .0 -
Well he (Or anybody in his office) thought it worthy to speak to her about death threats sent to the party about her, so not supporting her over a spot of antisemitism isn’t exactly surprising. For 2 years he didn’t speak to her.williamglenn said:0 -
2017Alistair said:
When did they last have an MP?Sunil_Prasannan said:
When did UKIP last have a panellist?Alistair said:I see question time had a UKIP parliamentary candidate as a "generic audience member of the public who was given a long response to the panel" again.
Just amazing how this keeps happening by pure random chance.0 -
It's just nasty over-acidic wine with bubbles anyway. Waste of money.Ishmael_Z said:
The champagne is what finally disillusioned me with JRM. Proper posh tories drink champagne because it is there, not to bloody celebrate things. What is he going to do on brexit day, hire a stretch limo for his mates?ralphmalph said:
Why would the ERG care if three ardent remain Ministers resign? I would have thought it would be another champagne reception.Scott_P said:0 -
It may be the first step toward a sensible answer. Indeed breaking the spell of 29th March may be all if takes.numbertwelve said:
This may be an unpopular opinion, but IMHO the worst of all worlds is delaying the withdrawal.Scott_P said:
Business and the economy are crying out for certainty, one way or the other. I can see why, superficially, the can kicking option is attractive but it will just lead to more deferred decisions. We need an answer, badly.
0 -
Hey, who needs to be well funded when you have the 'Founder and Editor of Politicalbetting.com' sending out freeby letters telling folk to vote for you? I'm assuming they were freebies anyway.rcs1000 said:
So what you're saying, if I understand correctly, is that the LibDems in Scotland are clearly very well funded,malcolmg said:
Libdem conference in Scotland has managed to get about 60 attendees in a 700 capacity hall, surprised that many are there.El_Capitano said:
Indeed. There was very little Lib Dem campaigning in Witney for GE2017 because it wasn't a target seat and all local resources had been diverted to OxWAb, and the Lib Dem organisation locally isn't strong enough to win the seat for the foreseeable.TheWhiteRabbit said:
She fell back, relative to the by-election, at GE2017.El_Capitano said:
It's not infeasible that a centrist could take Witney at some point, and I'm not the only local to think so:MikeSmithson said:
If Mr. Woodward had not switched and created a vacancy in Witney at GE2001 then Cameron might never have been elected leader and PM - and we might never have had Brexittlg86 said:Shaun Woodward should have called a by-election in Witney, just for a laugh.
https://twitter.com/isabeloakeshott/status/789391672148799488
Liz Leffman isn't standing next time round as it happens, but if TIG were to put up a candidate, who knows what might transpire...
But the seat's demographics are changing, becoming more urban and within the ambit of Oxford - which reduces the Tories' two advantages (the rural areas and Carterton's loyalty to the military). In 10/15 years' time I don't expect it to be such a safe seat.0 -
It’s like that stereotype of the worst party in the world, where the obnoxious hostess celebrates the early departure of all her charming guests, leaving only her and a few equally obnoxious hangers onBig_G_NorthWales said:
Insanity aboundsralphmalph said:
Why would the ERG care if three ardent remain Ministers resign? I would have thought it would be another champagne reception.Scott_P said:0 -
felix said:
I didn't know Charlie Falconer had ever resognedScott_P said:How long before he resigns...
https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1099045298834419714
0 -
Well said_Anazina_ said:
It’s like that stereotype of the worst party in the world, where the obnoxious hostess celebrates the early departure of all her charming guests, leaving only her and a few equally obnoxious hangers onBig_G_NorthWales said:
Insanity aboundsralphmalph said:
Why would the ERG care if three ardent remain Ministers resign? I would have thought it would be another champagne reception.Scott_P said:0 -
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Over 100 voted against the three-line-whip to reject May's bad deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good for them. It is time the centre minded conservative mps took a stance and stood up to the insane ERG.Scott_P said:
If May three-line whips to oppose a Brexit delay how many MPs do you think will vote against the whip to support a delay?
You call them centre-minded but I wonder what they're the centre of?0 -
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A lot and I would if I was a cabinet ministerPhilip_Thompson said:
Over 100 voted against the three-line-whip to reject May's bad deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good for them. It is time the centre minded conservative mps took a stance and stood up to the insane ERG.Scott_P said:
If May three-line whips to oppose a Brexit delay how many MPs do you think will vote against the whip to support a delay?
You call them centre-minded but I wonder what they're the centre of?0 -
By a lot you mean over or under 100?Big_G_NorthWales said:
A lot and I would if I was a cabinet ministerPhilip_Thompson said:
Over 100 voted against the three-line-whip to reject May's bad deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good for them. It is time the centre minded conservative mps took a stance and stood up to the insane ERG.Scott_P said:
If May three-line whips to oppose a Brexit delay how many MPs do you think will vote against the whip to support a delay?
You call them centre-minded but I wonder what they're the centre of?
How many cabinet ministers have resigned to reject the deal? More than 3 I do believe.0 -
Solid, solid rule for contemporary UK politics: likely contenders for Tory leadership inevitably make cnuts of themselves.
https://twitter.com/PeterKGeoghegan/status/10990518364667043900 -
Is the big vote next week on Wednesday?0
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This rally is within a stone's throw of where I did my first work experience in a high street law firm. Throw the stone the other way and you get my dad's Scout hut. Beeston town centre has been completely ruined by trams, though.NickPalmer said:
This was arranged weeks ago, and is his third visit to Broxtowe.Omnium said:
Dr Palmer's views will be interesting.Cookie said:
Ooh, I used to live just around the corner from there. There are at least 4 decent pubs within 5 minutes' walk.rottenborough said:
It's a weird message - he's taking on the Tiggers by attacking an ex-Tory. Surely he should have been doing this when she was a Tory. So really he's taking on the Tiggers, but failing to take them on man-to-man.
Corbyn needs a quiet home well away from the hustle and bustle of reality. His mind moved in twenty years ago.
As Cookie says, the pubs are good!0 -
The politics has changed this week. I hope over 100 rebel and stop no deal. I want TM deal but if not delay and a referendum if necessaryPhilip_Thompson said:
By a lot you mean over or under 100?Big_G_NorthWales said:
A lot and I would if I was a cabinet ministerPhilip_Thompson said:
Over 100 voted against the three-line-whip to reject May's bad deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good for them. It is time the centre minded conservative mps took a stance and stood up to the insane ERG.Scott_P said:
If May three-line whips to oppose a Brexit delay how many MPs do you think will vote against the whip to support a delay?
You call them centre-minded but I wonder what they're the centre of?
How many cabinet ministers have resigned to reject the deal? More than 3 I do believe.
TM has retained my support so far but the next 10 days could see her lose it if she does not stop no deal
In no deal I sign up for TIG0 -
Not on the deal so far but hopeful next week the HOC takes over the process from the hard brexit zealotsBenpointer said:Is the big vote next week on Wednesday?
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Good Lord, why were we not told!felix said:
I didn't know Charlie Falconer had ever resognedScott_P said:How long before he resigns...
https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/10990452988344197140 -
Given a choice between May's Deal and No Deal, 62% prefer May's Deal to 38% who prefer No Dealwilliamglenn said:Wales second referendum poll:
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-02-22/polls-shows-welsh-voters-prefer-mays-brexit-deal-to-leaving-eu-without-a-deal/0 -
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O/T: I'm trying to sign in to Vanilla to post from an iPad (Safari), but without success. It allows me to log in but immediately forgets that I'm signed in. Am I missing something?0
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I have never been Hunt's greatest fan but he is not entirely wrong, Yugoslavia (containing Slovenia) was part of the Eastern block and aligned with the Soviet Union in the immediate post war period until it joined the non aligned movement in 1961.williamglenn said:
Nonetheless Hunt's statement was not a fully accurate one and as Foreign Secretary he should have done more research before potentially insulting his hosts in this way.0
