Well allow me then. Can't let the slot go to waste.
A point which strikes me is that there is no point Jeremy winning a general election on a left leaning manifesto if most of his MPs would subsequently not be prepared to support its implementation because "the party has changed beyond all recognition" from the centrist, cowering before the daily mail, losing the last 2 general elections outfit that it used to be before he took over.
So it is better that they piss off now and are replaced in due course (i.e. at the next election) by Labour candidates who genuinely buy into the Labour offer.
It's perfectly natural for Labour to wish to destroy this threat to them before it has chance to grow (and if they didn't think it had potential to threaten them they wouldn't be trying to crush it at birth). It's also perfectly natural (and reasonable) for TIG MPs to want time to build something solid enough to put to the electorate before actually putting it to the electorate. As for the Conservatives - they've calculated that TIG will hurt Labour more than it'll hurt them so they're happy to lose a few fingers and toes so long as Labour loses whole limbs.
The best TIG argument against by-elections (right now) is that it'd take them all out of the Commons at the precise moment that they have maximum leverage on the most important question to them and to the country. Obviously, that argument has an expiry date but by then, the heat might have gone out of the issue.
Whatever the optics, they would be mad to chance losing their seats right now. They hold what might be the greatest leverage they ever will and a few more of them will see a formal meeting at No.10 to discuss options.
And to be fair I don't see why they should. They were elected as individual representatives and much as I disagree with every one of them on the main issue of the day, they should not be bound by the party system to stand down.
It is different if you are an MEP who was elected on a party slate. In that instance I think the law should be changed so you are forced to stand down.
They should just ignore the Corbynista.
It will become boring in a week or two when every time Williamson appears on TV he just bangs on about by-elections. Public wont care two hoots.
On topic, I was probably too absorbed by painfully unobtainable girls and the latest Clash album at the time to pay attention, but when the the SDP was formed how did Labour react? Squeals of betrayal or pained introspection?
He’s been incredibly quiet the last few months . Aiming to piss off the least amount of Tory MPs !
There’s no chance of anyone but a Leaver winning. I think the more moderate and pro EU wing will try and find someone they can coalesce around .
As a staunch Remainer I have less of an issue with Gove than I do with the Remainers who suddenly have morphed into hard Leavers , like Hunt , Javid whose desperate attempts to ingratiate themselves with the Tory membership are vomit inducing .
Whoever takes over can’t possibly be as xenophobic and immigrant hating as the so called vicars daughter May !
We're not similar in political perspectives generally, but I agree Gove has a credible shot. He's perhaps the best placed man to try and hold the party together, and uniting the wings is suddenly much more important than it might have been.
We're not similar in political perspectives generally, but I agree Gove has a credible shot. He's perhaps the best placed man to try and hold the party together, and uniting the wings is suddenly much more important than it might have been.
But to continue the Thatcher comparisons; isn't he more Keith Joseph material?
It's perfectly natural for Labour to wish to destroy this threat to them before it has chance to grow (and if they didn't think it had potential to threaten them they wouldn't be trying to crush it at birth). It's also perfectly natural (and reasonable) for TIG MPs to want time to build something solid enough to put to the electorate before actually putting it to the electorate. As for the Conservatives - they've calculated that TIG will hurt Labour more than it'll hurt them so they're happy to lose a few fingers and toes so long as Labour loses whole limbs.
The best TIG argument against by-elections (right now) is that it'd take them all out of the Commons at the precise moment that they have maximum leverage on the most important question to them and to the country. Obviously, that argument has an expiry date but by then, the heat might have gone out of the issue.
Whatever the optics, they would be mad to chance losing their seats right now. They hold what might be the greatest leverage they ever will and a few more of them will see a formal meeting at No.10 to discuss options.
And to be fair I don't see why they should. They were elected as individual representatives and much as I disagree with every one of them on the main issue of the day, they should not be bound by the party system to stand down.
It is different if you are an MEP who was elected on a party slate. In that instance I think the law should be changed so you are forced to stand down.
They should just ignore the Corbynista.
It will become boring in a week or two when every time Williamson appears on TV he just bangs on about by-elections. Public wont care two hoots.
We're not similar in political perspectives generally, but I agree Gove has a credible shot. He's perhaps the best placed man to try and hold the party together, and uniting the wings is suddenly much more important than it might have been.
True I think the Tories will try and find someone who can keep the party together . Even though Gove was instrumental in Vote Leave he just doesn’t annoy me as much as the rest !
I think he will be rewarded for not bringing down May in December and also for sparing the country Johnson in 2016!
There will be a lot of high level pressure supporting an 'insider' candidate - someone who knows how things work and is trusted. Look for someone who's been in the COBRA committee. Nobody (sadly) is going to want a capable outsider with ideas about mucking out the Augean stables, and it's likely that anyone of that ilk will face a lot of negative briefing and derailment attempts. Doesn't mean that they can't win of course - it has happened before.
It's perfectly natural for Labour to wish to destroy this threat to them before it has chance to grow (and if they didn't think it had potential to threaten them they wouldn't be trying to crush it at birth). It's also perfectly natural (and reasonable) for TIG MPs to want time to build something solid enough to put to the electorate before actually putting it to the electorate. As for the Conservatives - they've calculated that TIG will hurt Labour more than it'll hurt them so they're happy to lose a few fingers and toes so long as Labour loses whole limbs.
The best TIG argument against by-elections (right now) is that it'd take them all out of the Commons at the precise moment that they have maximum leverage on the most important question to them and to the country. Obviously, that argument has an expiry date but by then, the heat might have gone out of the issue.
Whatever the optics, they would be mad to chance losing their seats right now. They hold what might be the greatest leverage they ever will and a few more of them will see a formal meeting at No.10 to discuss options.
And to be fair I don't see why they should. They were elected as individual representatives and much as I disagree with every one of them on the main issue of the day, they should not be bound by the party system to stand down.
It is different if you are an MEP who was elected on a party slate. In that instance I think the law should be changed so you are forced to stand down.
They should just ignore the Corbynista.
It will become boring in a week or two when every time Williamson appears on TV he just bangs on about by-elections. Public wont care two hoots.
We are already at that point.
Every time he opens his mouth Williamson serves a useful function of reminding us all why the MPs were right to leave. Ultimately it is not about Brexit or even antisemitism. It is about how the Labour Party has become irretrievably taken over by a cabal of far left extremists, and the utter disdain that cabal has for anyone who does not share their true faith.
There will be a lot of high level pressure supporting an 'insider' candidate - someone who knows how things work and is trusted. Look for someone who's been in the COBRA committee. Nobody (sadly) is going to want a capable outsider with ideas about mucking out the Augean stables, and it's likely that anyone of that ilk will face a lot of negative briefing and derailment attempts. Doesn't mean that they can't win of course - it has happened before.
We're not similar in political perspectives generally, but I agree Gove has a credible shot. He's perhaps the best placed man to try and hold the party together, and uniting the wings is suddenly much more important than it might have been.
But to continue the Thatcher comparisons; isn't he more Keith Joseph material?
Not really. The leaver Keith Joseph is Daniel Hannan. Gove is more (thinks for a minute) Geoffrey Howe? Margaret Thatcher?
We're not similar in political perspectives generally, but I agree Gove has a credible shot. He's perhaps the best placed man to try and hold the party together, and uniting the wings is suddenly much more important than it might have been.
But to continue the Thatcher comparisons; isn't he more Keith Joseph material?
Not really. The leaver Keith Joseph is Daniel Hannan. Gove is more (thinks for a minute) Geoffrey Howe? Margaret Thatcher?
That's very unflattering to Keith Joseph. Hannan is a pure fantasist.
There will be a lot of high level pressure supporting an 'insider' candidate - someone who knows how things work and is trusted. Look for someone who's been in the COBRA committee. Nobody (sadly) is going to want a capable outsider with ideas about mucking out the Augean stables, and it's likely that anyone of that ilk will face a lot of negative briefing and derailment attempts. Doesn't mean that they can't win of course - it has happened before.
He’s been incredibly quiet the last few months . Aiming to piss off the least amount of Tory MPs !
There’s no chance of anyone but a Leaver winning. I think the more moderate and pro EU wing will try and find someone they can coalesce around .
As a staunch Remainer I have less of an issue with Gove than I do with the Remainers who suddenly have morphed into hard Leavers , like Hunt , Javid whose desperate attempts to ingratiate themselves with the Tory membership are vomit inducing .
Whoever takes over can’t possibly be as xenophobic and immigrant hating as the so called vicars daughter May !
I think Gove too.
In fact I would be quite taken aback if it were anybody else.
You can’t even blame the drink. He’s teetotal! I really despair at what’s happening to Labour .
How he can utter such nonsense without acknowledging how ludicrous he sounds, I really don't know.
We can all point to widespread aggressive behaviour by Corbyn supporters - their online antics are scary and absolutely count as bullying.
To deny the reality makes it hard to believe that Corbyn is not suffering from some sort of clinical delusion.
It’s tragic both May and Corbyn are living in a bubble ! Those hardcore followers of Corbyn simply refuse to accept he’s not up to the job. And any criticism is met with abuse and the Red Tory slur .
I support Labour and would be overjoyed if Corbyn stood down .
We're not similar in political perspectives generally, but I agree Gove has a credible shot. He's perhaps the best placed man to try and hold the party together, and uniting the wings is suddenly much more important than it might have been.
But to continue the Thatcher comparisons; isn't he more Keith Joseph material?
Not really. The leaver Keith Joseph is Daniel Hannan. Gove is more (thinks for a minute) Geoffrey Howe? Margaret Thatcher?
That's very unflattering to Keith Joseph. Hannan is a pure fantasist.
Yes, Keith Joseph was a quite remarkable politician, one of the most thoughtful since the war. He wasn't afraid to change his mind when the facts seemed to change (notably over state intervention), and he was very rare amongst politicians in intelligently answering questions - pausing to think exactly what he wanted to say before saying it, rather than launching straight into either platitudes or the party line.
Next time round it could be considerably more efficient, having learned from beginner mistakes - and as he’d have the cash to scale up much earlier...
Really interesting article. Long though.
Will he run?
I'm pretty sure now that Biden will, if Sanders is in the race.
Don’t know. The smartest thing to do (IMO) would be to run for the Senate again. It would be a huge favour to whoever would then be the nominee, and I think he’d win. Would set him up for a presidential run thereafter.
The temptation to take his shot now must be significant, though...
And I have not put on the central heating today for the first time since October
Spring on the way perhaps and everyone's Brexit will soon all be agreed amicably !!!!!
It was 18C in Aberdeenshire yesterday.
In his temperature scale, Isaac Newton in 1701 defined 6 degrees Newton as "the heat at midday about the month of July". Six degrees Newton is just over 18C.
The wonder of a fohn wind.
Not with a southerly wind to the south of the mountains I would have thought.
There's no other way Aberdeenshire gets to 18 C in February. Must be a descending airflow off the Cairngorms.
Today highest-ever-recorded Feb temperature records were broken across Cumbria and Northumberland
You can’t even blame the drink. He’s teetotal! I really despair at what’s happening to Labour .
How he can utter such nonsense without acknowledging how ludicrous he sounds, I really don't know.
We can all point to widespread aggressive behaviour by Corbyn supporters - their online antics are scary and absolutely count as bullying.
To deny the reality makes it hard to believe that Corbyn is not suffering from some sort of clinical delusion.
It’s tragic both May and Corbyn are living in a bubble ! Those hardcore followers of Corbyn simply refuse to accept he’s not up to the job. And any criticism is met with abuse and the Red Tory slur .
I support Labour and would be overjoyed if Corbyn stood down .
Looks like Jezza's response to this week is to go on a tour of marginals and run more rallys.
It does feel like his comfort blanket really.
Not one person will change their likely vote because of his rally in, say, Broxtowe, tomorrow I would wager. Just the Cult turning out to cheer their hero on.
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
Suggest some of them do it at noon tomorrow, just as Jezz starts his rally in Broxtowe.
"I want to make it clear to Bassetlaw people that I have no intention of leaving Labour and I will be the last man standing working to root out the anti-semitism that has permeated the party.
Fingers and toes is a rather flattering metaphor for what the Tories lost so far. I'd liken it more to getting rid of a bunion.
Actually it's more like they've had their heart and brain removed, in my opinion.
Well I'm sure in many circumstances they're nice people and I'm glad they have their fans (though not many of them seem to be Conservatives). Perhaps we can all agree that they weren't at home in the Tory Party and it's a good thing for all concerned that they've moved on.
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
We could quite possibly be in the midst of the longest period of continual Conservative Government since before the 1832 Reform Act. Labour is going to be utterly knackered for a 2022 GE and the choices on the left may still be split come 2027 (much as the SDP was still in contention in 1987 following the formation of the SDP 6 years earlier). So Conservative government from 2010 until quite possibly 2032.
For that, Corbyn should take responsibility, although he won't. For the far left, it's always someone else's fault.
I’m not sure about these Twitter rumours . The implosion is more likely to occur if Corbyn doesn’t back a second vote . I’d expect utter carnage at that point .
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
Suggest some of them do it at noon tomorrow, just as Jezz starts his rally in Broxtowe.
"I want to make it clear to Bassetlaw people that I have no intention of leaving Labour and I will be the last man standing working to root out the anti-semitism that has permeated the party.
You can’t even blame the drink. He’s teetotal! I really despair at what’s happening to Labour .
How he can utter such nonsense without acknowledging how ludicrous he sounds, I really don't know.
We can all point to widespread aggressive behaviour by Corbyn supporters - their online antics are scary and absolutely count as bullying.
To deny the reality makes it hard to believe that Corbyn is not suffering from some sort of clinical delusion.
It’s tragic both May and Corbyn are living in a bubble ! Those hardcore followers of Corbyn simply refuse to accept he’s not up to the job. And any criticism is met with abuse and the Red Tory slur .
I support Labour and would be overjoyed if Corbyn stood down .
Looks like Jezza's response to this week is to go on a tour of marginals and run more rallys.
It does feel like his comfort blanket really.
Not one person will change their likely vote because of his rally in, say, Broxtowe, tomorrow I would wager. Just the Cult turning out to cheer their hero on.
I’m not sure about that. It might convince Tories they should back Soubry as a Tigger against Labour.
Is there a long-standing convention that miserable discontented snowflakes in the media or in public-opinion voz-pops traditionally call for defecting MPs to call by-elections, despite it not being a convention that they do so, or is that - in itself - a modern snowflake development?
I’m not sure about these Twitter rumours . The implosion is more likely to occur if Corbyn doesn’t back a second vote . I’d expect utter carnage at that point .
Oh, he'll back it. Just at the precise moment when it is too late and makes no difference.
He wants a Tory Brexit and he wants to say that he wanted a 2nd vote along, but couldn't quite engineer it.
He’s been incredibly quiet the last few months . Aiming to piss off the least amount of Tory MPs !
There’s no chance of anyone but a Leaver winning. I think the more moderate and pro EU wing will try and find someone they can coalesce around .
As a staunch Remainer I have less of an issue with Gove than I do with the Remainers who suddenly have morphed into hard Leavers , like Hunt , Javid whose desperate attempts to ingratiate themselves with the Tory membership are vomit inducing .
Whoever takes over can’t possibly be as xenophobic and immigrant hating as the so called vicars daughter May !
I think Gove too.
In fact I would be quite taken aback if it were anybody else.
Given Gove is the front runner there's plenty of scope for a lesser-known figure to run. Rather depends on the time that the switch from may takes place. If its a crisis then probably no time for novices.
The interesting thing about Tory leadership races is that there is a decent list of possibilities. Tory MPs often have a career in something or other behind them. I'd presume on average that they are slightly older and slightly better qualified than those of other parties. (Neither of which in themselves matter, but does lead to a little more experience which is helpful.)
I'd not be surprised to have the final two in any leadership contest to be one of Gove/Boris/Javid/Hunt plus someone that I've barely heard of. No baggage candidates may well be quite attractive!
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
We could quite possibly be in the midst of the longest period of continual Conservative Government since before the 1832 Reform Act. Labour is going to be utterly knackered for a 2022 GE and the choices on the left may still be split come 2027 (much as the SDP was still in contention in 1987 following the formation of the SDP 6 years earlier). So Conservative government from 2010 until quite possibly 2032.
For that, Corbyn should take responsibility, although he won't. For the far left, it's always someone else's fault.
Why take responsibility when you can have a Trumpian rally of the faithful?
Moreover, rather than sitting between no-dealers and remainers on age, income, schooling and party, deal supporters look like no-dealers, with two exceptions: interest in politics and y chromosomes. Men who follow politics closely prefer the ideological end-points of leaving with no deal or remaining. Women, especially those who mostly ignore politics, are more open to the deal. Sadly for Mrs May, people bored by politics are also unlikely to vote.
Well I'm sure in many circumstances they're nice people and I'm glad they have their fans (though not many of them seem to be Conservatives). Perhaps we can all agree that they weren't at home in the Tory Party and it's a good thing for all concerned that they've moved on.
Yes, it's evidently true that they didn't feel at home in the Conservative Party of post 2016. They did, as they've made very clear, feel at home in the pre 2016 Conservative Party.
My own cut-off point was at around the same time... though I was just a (mostly) Conservative voter rather than a member. Now I'm an active Liberal Democrat member in my local branch.
He’s been incredibly quiet the last few months . Aiming to piss off the least amount of Tory MPs !
There’s no chance of anyone but a Leaver winning. I think the more moderate and pro EU wing will try and find someone they can coalesce around .
As a staunch Remainer I have less of an issue with Gove than I do with the Remainers who suddenly have morphed into hard Leavers , like Hunt , Javid whose desperate attempts to ingratiate themselves with the Tory membership are vomit inducing .
Whoever takes over can’t possibly be as xenophobic and immigrant hating as the so called vicars daughter May !
I think Gove too.
In fact I would be quite taken aback if it were anybody else.
Given Gove is the front runner there's plenty of scope for a lesser-known figure to run. Rather depends on the time that the switch from may takes place. If its a crisis then probably no time for novices.
The interesting thing about Tory leadership races is that there is a decent list of possibilities. Tory MPs often have a career in something or other behind them. I'd presume on average that they are slightly older and slightly better qualified than those of other parties. (Neither of which in themselves matter, but does lead to a little more experience which is helpful.)
I'd not be surprised to have the final two in any leadership contest to be one of Gove/Boris/Javid/Hunt plus someone that I've barely heard of. No baggage candidates may well be quite attractive!
Trouble is that those sort of contests need a party to be in opposition.
I see question time had a UKIP parliamentary candidate as a "generic audience member of the public who was given a long response to the panel" again.
Just amazing how this keeps happening by pure random chance.
They get their audience mostly by writing to the local political parties offering them places in proportion to some secret BBC formula. And to other local organisations, I believe. They advertise to the general public as well, but it's no surprise that most who turn up are politically active.
I’m not sure about these Twitter rumours . The implosion is more likely to occur if Corbyn doesn’t back a second vote . I’d expect utter carnage at that point .
Oh, he'll back it. Just at the precise moment when it is too late and makes no difference.
He wants a Tory Brexit and he wants to say that he wanted a 2nd vote along, but couldn't quite engineer it.
Pathetic.
But it could be very smart. It has cost him several MPs, so perhaps a bit later than he should have waited, but he may get his wish.
Is there a long-standing convention that miserable discontented snowflakes in the media or in public-opinion voz-pops traditionally call for defecting MPs to call by-elections, despite it not being a convention that they do so, or is that - in itself - a modern snowflake development?
How modern I don't know, but I feel like every time it happens politicians call for it and media and vox pop agree, so I don't think it is that new.
I believe the same about criticism of the State of Israel. There is no doubt that a lot of such criticism is motivated by anti semitism, but surely no country (or organisation, or individual, or family if the family's decisions have wide reaching effects) can or should be immune from scrutiny.
No, it should not be immune. And it isn't. It is very easy to criticise it without getting close to any anti-semitic tropes. I'd say I don't understand why people think it is hard, but for some people I think I do.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Ooh, I used to live just around the corner from there. There are at least 4 decent pubs within 5 minutes' walk.
Dr Palmer's views will be interesting.
It's a weird message - he's taking on the Tiggers by attacking an ex-Tory. Surely he should have been doing this when she was a Tory. So really he's taking on the Tiggers, but failing to take them on man-to-man.
Corbyn needs a quiet home well away from the hustle and bustle of reality. His mind moved in twenty years ago.
Moreover, rather than sitting between no-dealers and remainers on age, income, schooling and party, deal supporters look like no-dealers, with two exceptions: interest in politics and y chromosomes. Men who follow politics closely prefer the ideological end-points of leaving with no deal or remaining. Women, especially those who mostly ignore politics, are more open to the deal. Sadly for Mrs May, people bored by politics are also unlikely to vote.
Either Jezza refuses to see bullying in his party, or he can't control it. If the latter, God help us when/if he is trying to lead the country as PM.
Or he doesn't care because he's getting rid of the unbelievers.
Aiui the main conduit for abuse is twitter, so it is plausible Corbyn, who is no Trump, has not actually seen the sheer volume; it may be he imagines complainants are a bunch of snowflakes complaining about the odd heckler at a public meeting, which is where he has spent most of the last 40 years.
It's perfectly natural for Labour to wish to destroy this threat to them before it has chance to grow (and if they didn't think it had potential to threaten them they wouldn't be trying to crush it at birth). It's also perfectly natural (and reasonable) for TIG MPs to want time to build something solid enough to put to the electorate before actually putting it to the electorate. As for the Conservatives - they've calculated that TIG will hurt Labour more than it'll hurt them so they're happy to lose a few fingers and toes so long as Labour loses whole limbs.
Fingers and toes is a rather flattering metaphor for what the Tories lost so far. I'd liken it more to getting rid of a bunion.
FWIW I read The Standard yesterday for the first time in years. All I would say is that it’s good that it’s free....
Osborne hasn’t changed the “How to buy a £500,000 one bedroom flat in Battersea/Wandsworth” sections (Hat tip, live with one’s parents in Putney for 7 years and rely on wealthier boyfriend).
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law is on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
In response to being asked about the comments McDonnell made on a second ref, Corbyns answer was interesting. He said the Labour Party are discussing as to whether to have the Labour plan for Brexit as an option. He of course was not asked what the other option/options would be. Perhaps no deal versus Corbyn plan.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
Ooh, I used to live just around the corner from there. There are at least 4 decent pubs within 5 minutes' walk.
Dr Palmer's views will be interesting.
It's a weird message - he's taking on the Tiggers by attacking an ex-Tory. Surely he should have been doing this when she was a Tory. So really he's taking on the Tiggers, but failing to take them on man-to-man.
Corbyn needs a quiet home well away from the hustle and bustle of reality. His mind moved in twenty years ago.
Not weird at all, Anna is pro austerity and pro EU - so the ideal target for the hard left of Labour !
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I think people should resign and face by-elections in such situations, but I would not really support that being legislated for. I think while we all know party labels are why most people are elected technically it is the individual, and so they should not be forced to resign and restand. Their constituents can judge them on not resigning at the next GE (and of course, people often do not, and stand somewhere else).
In response to being asked about the comments McDonnell made on a second ref, Corbyns answer was interesting. He said the Labour Party are discussing as to whether to have the Labour plan for Brexit as an option. He of course was not asked what the other option/options would be. Perhaps no deal versus Corbyn plan.
He really is demented . Unless he backs a second vote with Remain as an option there will be a flood of MPs leaving the party . And he can’t have his deal on the ballot as it hasn’t even been agreed to by the EU.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
NO. An MP is elected for the duration of a Parliamentary term or earlier if their is an earlier GE . No MP should have any kind of restraint upon them regarding their conscience. If the voters don't like it, they can vote them out at the next election.
Ooh, I used to live just around the corner from there. There are at least 4 decent pubs within 5 minutes' walk.
Dr Palmer's views will be interesting.
It's a weird message - he's taking on the Tiggers by attacking an ex-Tory. Surely he should have been doing this when she was a Tory. So really he's taking on the Tiggers, but failing to take them on man-to-man.
Corbyn needs a quiet home well away from the hustle and bustle of reality. His mind moved in twenty years ago.
Not weird at all, Anna is pro austerity and pro EU - so the ideal target for the hard left of Labour !
More to the point, he intends to damn his former colleagues (and his wavering ones) by association.
There will be a lot of high level pressure supporting an 'insider' candidate - someone who knows how things work and is trusted. Look for someone who's been in the COBRA committee. Nobody (sadly) is going to want a capable outsider with ideas about mucking out the Augean stables, and it's likely that anyone of that ilk will face a lot of negative briefing and derailment attempts. Doesn't mean that they can't win of course - it has happened before.
In response to being asked about the comments McDonnell made on a second ref, Corbyns answer was interesting. He said the Labour Party are discussing as to whether to have the Labour plan for Brexit as an option. He of course was not asked what the other option/options would be. Perhaps no deal versus Corbyn plan.
He really is demented . Unless he backs a second vote with Remain as an option there will be a flood of MPs leaving the party . And he can’t have his deal on the ballot as it hasn’t even been agreed to by the EU.
I was thinking his plan could be, vote down May Deal. Say that is dead cannot be on the ref and say ref must be his plan/no deal. He could propose this knowing full well that the Tory party would block it immediately especially as he can get some of his mates in the PLP to vote with the Tories/DUP as well.
Then second ref voted down and he can say well I tried to get a second ref and this leaves May holding the Brexit baby and looking powerless in the house to get what she wants through.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I am surprised the major parties have not set about a system whereby candidates agree to pay X amount if they defect and have a post-dated resignation letter should they decide to desert their party. I remember being impressed when reading a decade or more ago that the DUP had done exactly this! The DUP it has to be remembered hoovered up many UUP MPs/ Cllrs and members.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
NO. An MP is elected for the duration of a Parliamentary term or earlier if their is an earlier GE . No MP should have any kind of restraint upon them regarding their conscience. If the voters don't like it, they can vote them out at the next election.
Yeah. Should, not must.
MPs are entirely entitled to consult their own consciences and perhaps just that.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
NO. An MP is elected for the duration of a Parliamentary term or earlier if their is an earlier GE . No MP should have any kind of restraint upon them regarding their conscience. If the voters don't like it, they can vote them out at the next election.
If they are elected as a member of Party X ,and then suddenly change to Party Y mid-way through the parliament, then they should.
I do accept that TIG is NOT a formal political party at time of writing.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
NO. An MP is elected for the duration of a Parliamentary term or earlier if their is an earlier GE . No MP should have any kind of restraint upon them regarding their conscience. If the voters don't like it, they can vote them out at the next election.
Yeah. Should, not must.
MPs are entirely entitled to consult their own consciences and perhaps just that.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I also think there is a particular problem when MPs cross the floor of the House. Changing the Government (potentially) is more than just a constituency issue. Imagine if the 3 Tory defectors had removed the Government's majority without a single vote being cast. In my view that would be undemocratic without by-elections.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I am surprised the major parties have not set about a system whereby candidates agree to pay X amount if they defect and have a post-dated resignation letter should they decide to desert their party. I remember being impressed when reading a decade or more ago that the DUP had done exactly this! The DUP it has to be remembered hoovered up many UUP MPs/ Cllrs and members.
You want your MPs to be able to defect, at least a little. The Tiggers are the perfect example. To my mind they're doing precisely what they're supposed to do if they find themselves in such circumstances. For all of them, as far as I can tell, they see their position as unchanged, and the external factors have made their positions unviable. So the formation of the Tiggers is to my mind absolutely great - precisely what they should do. I have some issue though with their other views - blind disregard to a public referendum is poor form.
You say there's war and famine in the world. That's your comment, not mine. Of course, I disagree with you, because I don't want to be in a world where there's any war or famine.
In response to being asked about the comments McDonnell made on a second ref, Corbyns answer was interesting. He said the Labour Party are discussing as to whether to have the Labour plan for Brexit as an option. He of course was not asked what the other option/options would be. Perhaps no deal versus Corbyn plan.
He really is demented . Unless he backs a second vote with Remain as an option there will be a flood of MPs leaving the party . And he can’t have his deal on the ballot as it hasn’t even been agreed to by the EU.
I was thinking his plan could be, vote down May Deal. Say that is dead cannot be on the ref and say ref must be his plan/no deal. He could propose this knowing full well that the Tory party would block it immediately especially as he can get some of his mates in the PLP to vote with the Tories/DUP as well.
Then second ref voted down and he can say well I tried to get a second ref and this leaves May holding the Brexit baby and looking powerless in the house to get what she wants through.
If he thinks Labour Remainers will fall for that then he’s even more deluded than I thought . The conference motion said Remain on the ballot . He either backs that or will see a complete implosion of the party.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I am surprised the major parties have not set about a system whereby candidates agree to pay X amount if they defect and have a post-dated resignation letter should they decide to desert their party. I remember being impressed when reading a decade or more ago that the DUP had done exactly this! The DUP it has to be remembered hoovered up many UUP MPs/ Cllrs and members.
You want your MPs to be able to defect, at least a little. The Tiggers are the perfect example. To my mind they're doing precisely what they're supposed to do if they find themselves in such circumstances. For all of them, as far as I can tell, they see their position as unchanged, and the external factors have made their positions unviable. So the formation of the Tiggers is to my mind absolutely great - precisely what they should do. I have some issue though with their other views - blind disregard to a public referendum is poor form.
Exactly. And in no line of work should someone lose their job - or be forced to compete for it again - because they are being bullied, or want to whisteblow on what is happening in their workplace.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I am surprised the major parties have not set about a system whereby candidates agree to pay X amount if they defect and have a post-dated resignation letter should they decide to desert their party. I remember being impressed when reading a decade or more ago that the DUP had done exactly this! The DUP it has to be remembered hoovered up many UUP MPs/ Cllrs and members.
Enforcement would be an interesting exercise. The DUP rival FF for underlying corruption, morally and economically.
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I am surprised the major parties have not set about a system whereby candidates agree to pay X amount if they defect and have a post-dated resignation letter should they decide to desert their party. I remember being impressed when reading a decade or more ago that the DUP had done exactly this! The DUP it has to be remembered hoovered up many UUP MPs/ Cllrs and members.
You want your MPs to be able to defect, at least a little. The Tiggers are the perfect example. To my mind they're doing precisely what they're supposed to do if they find themselves in such circumstances. For all of them, as far as I can tell, they see their position as unchanged, and the external factors have made their positions unviable. So the formation of the Tiggers is to my mind absolutely great - precisely what they should do. I have some issue though with their other views - blind disregard to a public referendum is poor form.
I agree about defection, sometimes it is necessary for instance if a leader is a pathological megalomaniac who works against the national interest i.e. Corbyn.
If the person is PM that is even worse like Gordon Brown but I don't remember him losing MPs by defection more was the pity. To be fair to Brown he was not as bad as Corbyn, nowhere near he was partisan but never a traitor but I do think his economic record was reckless and showed little regard toward sustainability. Brown thought it was all a game. In contrast I don't know what to make of the current PM!
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I also think there is a particular problem when MPs cross the floor of the House. Changing the Government (potentially) is more than just a constituency issue. Imagine if the 3 Tory defectors had removed the Government's majority without a single vote being cast. In my view that would be undemocratic without by-elections.
But that is exactly what should happen if the government no longer commands the confidence of the house, isn't it? There would be a VoNC and (given it would be unlikely that the opposition could form a government unless it was spectacularly finely balanced) a general election
Lets just say that the law changed to force a by election. Potential defectors then just wouldnt defect - they would just ignore the whip and do their own thing. Like ERG.
Carswell and Reckless, for all their Kippery, at least had the courage to resign their seats and trigger by-elections.
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
If there's a dramatic change then they should. Changing from one established party to the other for example. Imagine if Labour won next time round, but it turned out that half of their candidates were Tory plants who all switched the next morning.
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
I am surprised the major parties have not set about a system whereby candidates agree to pay X amount if they defect and have a post-dated resignation letter should they decide to desert their party. I remember being impressed when reading a decade or more ago that the DUP had done exactly this! The DUP it has to be remembered hoovered up many UUP MPs/ Cllrs and members.
Enforcement would be an interesting exercise. The DUP rival FF for underlying corruption, morally and economically.
I was impressed by their foresight, not the same as agreeing with their tactics, record or ethics!
Comments
A point which strikes me is that there is no point Jeremy winning a general election on a left leaning manifesto if most of his MPs would subsequently not be prepared to support its implementation because "the party has changed beyond all recognition" from the centrist, cowering before the daily mail, losing the last 2 general elections outfit that it used to be before he took over.
So it is better that they piss off now and are replaced in due course (i.e. at the next election) by Labour candidates who genuinely buy into the Labour offer.
It will become boring in a week or two when every time Williamson appears on TV he just bangs on about by-elections. Public wont care two hoots.
He’s been incredibly quiet the last few months . Aiming to piss off the least amount of Tory MPs !
There’s no chance of anyone but a Leaver winning. I think the more moderate and pro EU wing will try and find someone they can coalesce around .
As a staunch Remainer I have less of an issue with Gove than I do with the Remainers who suddenly have morphed into hard Leavers , like Hunt , Javid whose desperate attempts to ingratiate themselves with the Tory membership are vomit inducing .
Whoever takes over can’t possibly be as xenophobic and immigrant hating as the so called vicars daughter May !
We're not similar in political perspectives generally, but I agree Gove has a credible shot. He's perhaps the best placed man to try and hold the party together, and uniting the wings is suddenly much more important than it might have been.
I think he will be rewarded for not bringing down May in December and also for sparing the country Johnson in 2016!
https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-denies-wide-scale-bullying-problem-in-labour-11645028
Anyway, I must be off.
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1099006099477446658
We can all point to widespread aggressive behaviour by Corbyn supporters - their online antics are scary and absolutely count as bullying.
To deny the reality makes it hard to believe that Corbyn is not suffering from some sort of clinical delusion.
Corbyn is unable to react with any empathy to his party's concerns.
At last his unsuitability for office is on full display for everyone to see
He is not a magic grandpa
John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Phil Wilson, Siobhain McDonagh, Peter Kyle, Catherine McKinnell and Pat McFadden
to go over the weekend.
I'd say Siobhain McD was pretty much certain from her tweets/interviews over the last few days.
In fact I would be quite taken aback if it were anybody else.
I support Labour and would be overjoyed if Corbyn stood down .
Actually it's more like they've had their heart and brain removed, in my opinion.
The smartest thing to do (IMO) would be to run for the Senate again. It would be a huge favour to whoever would then be the nominee, and I think he’d win. Would set him up for a presidential run thereafter.
The temptation to take his shot now must be significant, though...
https://twitter.com/harryyorke1/status/1099009021795860480?s=21
It does feel like his comfort blanket really.
Not one person will change their likely vote because of his rally in, say, Broxtowe, tomorrow I would wager. Just the Cult turning out to cheer their hero on.
Read more at: https://www.worksopguardian.co.uk/news/john-mann-tells-the-people-of-bassetlaw-he-has-no-intention-of-leaving-the-labour-party-1-9608666"
For that, Corbyn should take responsibility, although he won't. For the far left, it's always someone else's fault.
Just amazing how this keeps happening by pure random chance.
He wants a Tory Brexit and he wants to say that he wanted a 2nd vote along, but couldn't quite engineer it.
Pathetic.
The interesting thing about Tory leadership races is that there is a decent list of possibilities. Tory MPs often have a career in something or other behind them. I'd presume on average that they are slightly older and slightly better qualified than those of other parties. (Neither of which in themselves matter, but does lead to a little more experience which is helpful.)
I'd not be surprised to have the final two in any leadership contest to be one of Gove/Boris/Javid/Hunt plus someone that I've barely heard of. No baggage candidates may well be quite attractive!
Moreover, rather than sitting between no-dealers and remainers on age, income, schooling and party, deal supporters look like no-dealers, with two exceptions: interest in politics and y chromosomes. Men who follow politics closely prefer the ideological end-points of leaving with no deal or remaining. Women, especially those who mostly ignore politics, are more open to the deal. Sadly for Mrs May, people bored by politics are also unlikely to vote.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/02/23/british-voters-are-unimpressed-by-theresa-mays-brexit-deal
My own cut-off point was at around the same time... though I was just a (mostly) Conservative voter rather than a member. Now I'm an active Liberal Democrat member in my local branch.
It's a weird message - he's taking on the Tiggers by attacking an ex-Tory. Surely he should have been doing this when she was a Tory. So really he's taking on the Tiggers, but failing to take them on man-to-man.
Corbyn needs a quiet home well away from the hustle and bustle of reality. His mind moved in twenty years ago.
So yet again I find myself hanging around airhead girls.
Osborne hasn’t changed the “How to buy a £500,000 one bedroom flat in Battersea/Wandsworth” sections (Hat tip, live with one’s parents in Putney for 7 years and rely on wealthier boyfriend).
Its not a question of courage. I don't think any MP should have to fight their seat again... and the law is on their side.. recent loons to refight their seats include David Davis
The Tiggers have basically just become Labour without the whip at the moment.
If the Tiggers form a party then it gets them closer to needing to test their electoral base, and I think they certainly should if they joined the LDs.
Labour's troubles surely must be exemplified in that their first idea was to make such things illegal.
But if that's the case why is he allowing the likes of Chris Williamson to speak on his and Labour's behalf?
it makes the party look like a bunch of thugs.
.
No MP should have any kind of restraint upon them regarding their conscience. If the voters don't like it, they can vote them out at the next election.
Then second ref voted down and he can say well I tried to get a second ref and this leaves May holding the Brexit baby and looking powerless in the house to get what she wants through.
MPs are entirely entitled to consult their own consciences and perhaps just that.
Not quite sure how you managed the caps 'no' !
I do accept that TIG is NOT a formal political party at time of writing.
If the person is PM that is even worse like Gordon Brown but I don't remember him losing MPs by defection more was the pity. To be fair to Brown he was not as bad as Corbyn, nowhere near he was partisan but never a traitor but I do think his economic record was reckless and showed little regard toward sustainability. Brown thought it was all a game. In contrast I don't know what to make of the current PM!