politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A Labour Twitter thread with a sting in the tail from Michael
Comments
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It is funny Healey and Clarke are similar in some ways, I think the timing of their peak is to blame. Being in the right place at the right time is key i.e. Blair in 1994.Peter_the_Punter said:
The sad truth is that Clarke could never have led the Tory Party because of his views on Europe. Equally sad was the parallel with Healey and the Labour Party, which is often remarked upon.The_Taxman said:
I voted for Ken Clarke as I was a member at the time!Peter_the_Punter said:
Hmmm, let me see now.....Corbyn/IDS....IDS/Corbyn.....Can I get back to you on that one?ydoethur said:
He was still better than Corbyn.Peter_the_Punter said:
IDS wasn't very good, although I've developed a grudging respect recently.ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!
Admittedly that's like saying somebody is more democratically elected than Maduro.
It grieves one to think that IDS was the Stop Ken Clarke candidate. What were you guys in blue thinking of?
IDS was shit on a stick. I saw him give a floundering speech at a hustings and wondered why people were voting for him. Clarke on the other hand gave a speech without notes to an audience that he tailored his message toward. I have a very high regard for KC, shame he is not in his forties now as he has the qualities to lead the UK out of this malaise.0 -
FE Smith on being approached by a new Labour MP asking where the loos were: “along the corridor on the left. It says ‘gentlemen’ on the door, but don’t let that deter you”DavidL said:
I always liked from the same man:Peter_the_Punter said:
Lol! Never heard that before. Wonderful. Thank you, Ydoethur.ydoethur said:
'I would have no doubt the miners' leaders are the stupidest men in England, had I not frequent occasion to meet the owners.'Peter_the_Punter said:
About the kindest comment I can come up with on that is that it reminds me of Churchill's remark that an MP's belief in democracy was unlikely to survive five minutes of conversation with a constituent.nico67 said:
Truly astounding just how stupid are these people . I think many Brits aren’t even aware as May drones on about stopping Freedom of Movement that it applies to them aswell .williamglenn said:
Lord Birkenhead.
Judge: I've listened to you for an hour and I'm none wiser.
FE Smith: None the wiser, perhaps, my lord but certainly better informed.
Nothing to do with my case today of course.
Also: "Churchill has spent the best years of his life preparing impromptu remarks."
Or my personal favourite, when he was in front of a judge that was notoriously fond of alcohol:
“In mitigation, your worship, my client was as drunk as a judge”
“Surely, Mr Smith, you mean ‘as drunk as a Lord?’ “
“As you wish, my Lord”0 -
Very good post. I am generally positive and of course have 4 grandchildren so I assume a way will be found but we need our mps to step up to the plate and agree a dealbookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.0 -
Noble words, Bookseller, and I will try to remember them. Brexit has made me ashamed and embarrassed to be British for the first time in my life, but if it leads to a greater appreciaation of the values you refer to, well....it's something.bookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.0 -
There was an interesting period previously where we became a fueding failed state, co-incidentally when we separated from a continental superstate:stodge said:
Perhaps we are a "failed State" obviously not in the sense of a Venezuela or a Somalia - a different kind of failure, a failure not just of a political class but of the very definition of governance in terms of setting the terms of reference for the direction of the country.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.
Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent. We see blockades of vehicles put by Maduro to stop the basic medical and food supplies coming in to help the sick children and elderly and yet we have a labour leadership that refuses to condemn him. The hounding of Luciana Berger is an ever present reminder of just how far labour has gone from its values, and many labour mps want out but cannot organise themselves to leave thereby adding to Corbyn's legitimacy
TM pointless EU travels adds to the gloom and we have the ERG, ready to crash our economy onto the rocks
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
It's not the fault of a political class or even a political system - to paraphrase "the fault lies not in our politicians but in ourselves". We are a complex post-industrial advanced society - technology is offering not just evolution or devolution but revolution in how it can re-order the very concepts which provided the stability and order of the 20th Century.
Such things challenge us fundamentally and they can seem overwhelming and it's easy to retreat back to the comfortable solutions of the past but the future won't allow such luxury.
https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/britannia-a-failed-state.htm0 -
stodge said:
Perhaps we are a "failed State" obviously not in the sense of a Venezuela or a Somalia - a different kind of failure, a failure not just of a political class but of the very definition of governance in terms of setting the terms of reference for the direction of the country.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.
Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent. We see blockades of vehicles put by Maduro to stop the basic medical and food supplies coming in to help the sick children and elderly and yet we have a labour leadership that refuses to condemn him. The hounding of Luciana Berger is an ever present reminder of just how far labour has gone from its values, and many labour mps want out but cannot organise themselves to leave thereby adding to Corbyn's legitimacy
TM pointless EU travels adds to the gloom and we have the ERG, ready to crash our economy onto the rocks
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
It's not the fault of a political class or even a political system - to paraphrase "the fault lies not in our politicians but in ourselves". We are a complex post-industrial advanced society - technology is offering not just evolution or devolution but revolution in how it can re-order the very concepts which provided the stability and order of the 20th Century.
Such things challenge us fundamentally and they can seem overwhelming and it's easy to retreat back to the comfortable solutions of the past but the future won't allow such luxury.</
However, there seems little in the way of original thinking about. There are essentially 2 visions out there. Both backward looking. Corbyn to the postwar consensus. Low tax small state marketeers to the 80s. And mainstream Tory and Labour MPs lack of vision where all is well, and everything stays the same with a few tweaks.
None of them address the future. The elephant in the room is that the GFC fundamentally changed the economic situation of many people. They are in work, but not getting materially better off. This has lasted the better part of ten years. Which is, in part, why we voted Leave.
Oh, and the Party system is breaking down too under the strain of Brexit and a constitution unfit for such a task.
No surprise we have unpopular politicians then.0 -
I see Chope is up to his usual tricks:
https://twitter.com/SophieRunning/status/1093810436536000512?s=190 -
He disgusts meFoxy said:I see Chope is up to his usual tricks:
https://twitter.com/SophieRunning/status/1093810436536000512?s=190 -
Conversely, I feel no embarrassment at all about being British.Peter_the_Punter said:
Noble words, Bookseller, and I will try to remember them. Brexit has made me ashamed and embarrassed to be British for the first time in my life, but if it leads to a greater appreciaation of the values you refer to, well....it's something.bookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.0 -
That may not happen. We really have to face that possibility now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very good post. I am generally positive and of course have 4 grandchildren so I assume a way will be found but we need our mps to step up to the plate and agree a dealbookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.0 -
Indeed.bookseller said:
That may not happen. We really have to face that possibility now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Very good post. I am generally positive and of course have 4 grandchildren so I assume a way will be found but we need our mps to step up to the plate and agree a dealbookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.0 -
Snap, we are showing the world what democracy means. Especially the other EU members that have to vote again or have their votes just ignored.Sean_F said:
Conversely, I feel no embarrassment at all about being British.Peter_the_Punter said:
Noble words, Bookseller, and I will try to remember them. Brexit has made me ashamed and embarrassed to be British for the first time in my life, but if it leads to a greater appreciaation of the values you refer to, well....it's something.bookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.0 -
Twat...Foxy said:I see Chope is up to his usual tricks:
https://twitter.com/SophieRunning/status/1093810436536000512?s=190 -
Nicely written if I may say so and with much that rings true.bookseller said:
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.
Just thinking about it, I would say that I am neither proud nor ashamed to be British. I am mainly thankful to be British.0 -
We are not close to being a failed State.stodge said:
Perhaps we are a "failed State" obviously not in the sense of a Venezuela or a Somalia - a different kind of failure, a failure not just of a political class but of the very definition of governance in terms of setting the terms of reference for the direction of the country.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.
Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent. We see blockades of vehicles put by Maduro to stop the basic medical and food supplies coming in to help the sick children and elderly and yet we have a labour leadership that refuses to condemn him. The hounding of Luciana Berger is an ever present reminder of just how far labour has gone from its values, and many labour mps want out but cannot organise themselves to leave thereby adding to Corbyn's legitimacy
TM pointless EU travels adds to the gloom and we have the ERG, ready to crash our economy onto the rocks
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
It's not the fault of a political class or even a political system - to paraphrase "the fault lies not in our politicians but in ourselves". We are a complex post-industrial advanced society - technology is offering not just evolution or devolution but revolution in how it can re-order the very concepts which provided the stability and order of the 20th Century.
Such things challenge us fundamentally and they can seem overwhelming and it's easy to retreat back to the comfortable solutions of the past but the future won't allow such luxury.0 -
No, not yet. It takes more than a few years to reach that fratricidal end point.Sean_F said:
We are not close to being a failed State.stodge said:
Perhaps we are a "failed State" obviously not in the sense of a Venezuela or a Somalia - a different kind of failure, a failure not just of a political class but of the very definition of governance in terms of setting the terms of reference for the direction of the country.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.
Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent. We see blockades of vehicles put by Maduro to stop the basic medical and food supplies coming in to help the sick children and elderly and yet we have a labour leadership that refuses to condemn him. The hounding of Luciana Berger is an ever present reminder of just how far labour has gone from its values, and many labour mps want out but cannot organise themselves to leave thereby adding to Corbyn's legitimacy
TM pointless EU travels adds to the gloom and we have the ERG, ready to crash our economy onto the rocks
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
It's not the fault of a political class or even a political system - to paraphrase "the fault lies not in our politicians but in ourselves". We are a complex post-industrial advanced society - technology is offering not just evolution or devolution but revolution in how it can re-order the very concepts which provided the stability and order of the 20th Century.
Such things challenge us fundamentally and they can seem overwhelming and it's easy to retreat back to the comfortable solutions of the past but the future won't allow such luxury.0 -
0
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That choice of photo of her is worthy of a Daily Mail hatchet job.williamglenn said:Is KLOBUCHAR a pound-shop Gordon Brown?
https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/10939854607062548480 -
Thanks for the FE Smith quotes - they cheered me up on an otherwise miserable day
0 -
Here are a few more for you:Benpointer said:Thanks for the FE Smith quotes - they cheered me up on an otherwise miserable day
"We have the highest authority for believing that the meek shall inherit the earth; though I have never found any particular corroboration of this aphorism in the records of Somerset House."
and
Judge: What do you suppose I am on the bench for?
Smith: It is not for me, Your Honour, to attempt to fathom the inscrutable workings of Providence.
and
Judge: You are extremely offensive, young man!
Smith: As a matter of fact we both are; and the only difference between us is that I am trying to be, and you can't help it.0 -
if [John Smith] had been Prime Minister, he would never have grasped the importance of demonstrating that Humphrey the Downing Street cat was all right. “No, he wouldn’t,” [Smith's daughter] confessed. “And he wouldn’t have taken a million quid off Bernie Ecclestone either.”MarqueeMark said:" a Labour government will never be bought off by the rich and powerful"
*cough* Bernie Ecclestone *cough*
*cough* million quid *cough*
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/remembering-john-smith-20-years-on-what-would-his-government-have-looked-like-9357017.html0 -
A head to head with Donald would sell some tickets. :-)williamglenn said:Is KLOBUCHAR a pound-shop Gordon Brown?
https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/10939854607062548480 -
Best news of the day
Thousands of conservative party members to leave and join Farage's new party
The sooner the better. We may get our party back0 -
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
You are very loyal BJO as he collapses in popularity in the public gazebigjohnowls said:
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
FrancisUrquhart said:
Mike Ashley's Sports Direct has made a bid for cafe chain Patisserie Valerie, which collapsed into administration last month.
Can I browse trainers whilst consuming a posh vanilla slice0 -
I’m now fully signed up to Team KLOBUCHAR:
https://twitter.com/katenocera/status/1093989798002479106?s=21
These are the things that really matter.0 -
This story suggests to me that she’s a back not a lay. First, no one will ever not vote for someone because she’s a complete nightmare. Many will see a bloody difficult woman as a selling point. Secondly, someone is worried enough about her to see her as a threat.0
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Where would you rank TM amongst Tory PM's?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are very loyal BJO as he collapses in popularity in the public gazebigjohnowls said:
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
I'm with her and you on that. It always seems a dishonest euphemism:AlastairMeeks said:I’m now fully signed up to Team KLOBUCHAR:
https://twitter.com/katenocera/status/1093989798002479106?s=21
These are the things that really matter.
"International community:" A motley collection of nations each pursuing their own interests
"Community leader:" Hothead unknown locally but whose phone number is known to the BBC
"Community charge:" A hateful tax levied upon individuals
"Care in the community:" The absence of care0 -
Nice set of blinkers there John ;-)bigjohnowls said:
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
If she blows her top about “issue”, I’m on the next plane over to campaign for her.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm with her and you on that. It always seems a dishonest euphemism:AlastairMeeks said:I’m now fully signed up to Team KLOBUCHAR:
https://twitter.com/katenocera/status/1093989798002479106?s=21
These are the things that really matter.
"International community:" A motley collection of nations each pursuing their own interests
"Community leader:" Hothead unknown locally but whose phone number is known to the BBC
"Community charge:" A hateful tax levied upon individuals
"Care in the community:" The absence of care0 -
Let's just say Anthony Eden and Ted Heath are both raising a glass to TM.....bigjohnowls said:
Where would you rank TM amongst Tory PM's?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are very loyal BJO as he collapses in popularity in the public gazebigjohnowls said:
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!
#NotTheWorst0 -
I'll accompany you if she promises to annihilate the phrase 'at this moment in time' and replace it with 'now'.AlastairMeeks said:
If she blows her top about “issue”, I’m on the next plane over to campaign for her.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm with her and you on that. It always seems a dishonest euphemism:AlastairMeeks said:I’m now fully signed up to Team KLOBUCHAR:
https://twitter.com/katenocera/status/1093989798002479106?s=21
These are the things that really matter.
"International community:" A motley collection of nations each pursuing their own interests
"Community leader:" Hothead unknown locally but whose phone number is known to the BBC
"Community charge:" A hateful tax levied upon individuals
"Care in the community:" The absence of care0 -
It isn't though, is it, harking back either to our colonial past or even to the second world war, which, of course, bankrupted the country and ended the Empire? I'm not sure what motivates the headbanging Brexiteers but it is not that.bookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.
There is, I think, a disturbing ignorance of how international trade works, and what FTAs really are. Sometimes there is just ignorance in general, and not confined to Europhobes, like when we have ministers of the Crown not knowing that Dover is on the road to Calais, or that Northern Ireland nationalists and loyalists support different parties. It is fuck business; it is we have had enough of experts.
I don't know what you'd call all that but it is not nostalgia for an imperial past. It is far worse.0 -
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!
0 -
Well I guess they haven’t lived through the last couple of years of UK politics, so it’s possible.AlastairMeeks said:This story suggests to me that she’s a back not a lay. First, no one will ever not vote for someone because she’s a complete nightmare. Many will see a bloody difficult woman as a selling point....
0 -
Has there been a more recent politician than Sir Winston Churchill to have a pub named after them?Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
Worse than Eden.bigjohnowls said:
Where would you rank TM amongst Tory PM's?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are very loyal BJO as he collapses in popularity in the public gazebigjohnowls said:
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
https://twitter.com/PrivateEyeNews/status/1093911118022656005FrancisUrquhart said:Mike Ashley's Sports Direct has made a bid for cafe chain Patisserie Valerie, which collapsed into administration last month.
Is there any high street chain mike doesn’t want to buy?0 -
Yes- there is a Lord Wilson in Huddersfield.MarqueeMark said:
Has there been a more recent politician than Sir Winston Churchill to have a pub named after them?Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
0
-
Ah, that makes sense.slade said:
Yes- there is a Lord Wilson in Huddersfield.MarqueeMark said:
Has there been a more recent politician than Sir Winston Churchill to have a pub named after them?Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!
Still no Margaret Thatcher though..... That will be a brave landlord!0 -
I would hope he disgusts most people.Big_G_NorthWales said:
He disgusts meFoxy said:I see Chope is up to his usual tricks:
https://twitter.com/SophieRunning/status/1093810436536000512?s=190 -
'The Lord Ted' at Newark named after our former Labour MP Ted Bishop who was MP for the town until 1979.slade said:
Yes- there is a Lord Wilson in Huddersfield.MarqueeMark said:
Has there been a more recent politician than Sir Winston Churchill to have a pub named after them?Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
So how do you consider all the fawning to the USA (the so-called 'special relationship'), the decades of 'Europe is coming our way', the Middle Eastern warmongering, the Gordon Brown saved the world' claims, the £100bn plus on Overseas Aid (remember how the UK was to become an 'Aid Superpower'), the claims of London being the 'World Capital' and doubtless a few more I've forgotten.bookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.
There's never been any shortage of grandiloquent dreaming - it din't start with Brexit and I'll doubt it will end with it.0 -
Ta, I wouldn't have made that connection.Richard_Tyndall said:
'The Lord Ted' at Newark named after our former Labour MP Ted Bishop who was MP for the town until 1979.slade said:
Yes- there is a Lord Wilson in Huddersfield.MarqueeMark said:
Has there been a more recent politician than Sir Winston Churchill to have a pub named after them?Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
The ones which are profitable.FrancisUrquhart said:Mike Ashley's Sports Direct has made a bid for cafe chain Patisserie Valerie, which collapsed into administration last month.
Is there any high street chain mike doesn’t want to buy?0 -
I am firmly of the view that many of the politicians and civil servants pushing for British membership of the EEC in the 1960s and early 70s had never reconciled themselves with the End of Empire and thought that if we joined then we would naturally end up leading the European bloc. Such was their arrogance and idiocy which has infected the Pro-EU cause ever since. You still hear it in the claims of those - including some on here - who think that if only we had fully engaged with the EU project we would have been leading it. It is utter arrogance.another_richard said:
So how do you consider all the fawning to the USA (the so-called 'special relationship'), the decades of 'Europe is coming our way', the Middle Eastern warmongering, the Gordon Brown saved the world' claims, the £100bn plus on Overseas Aid (remember how the UK was to become an 'Aid Superpower'), the claims of London being the 'World Capital' and doubtless a few more I've forgotten.
There's never been any shortage of grandiloquent dreaming - it din't start with Brexit and I'll doubt it will end with it.
0 -
It is a Wetherspoons and they have a habit of naming their pubs after local notables. I would not be surprised to find that somewhere in the country there is an even more recent example.MarqueeMark said:
Ta, I wouldn't have made that connection.Richard_Tyndall said:
'The Lord Ted' at Newark named after our former Labour MP Ted Bishop who was MP for the town until 1979.slade said:
Yes- there is a Lord Wilson in Huddersfield.MarqueeMark said:
Has there been a more recent politician than Sir Winston Churchill to have a pub named after them?Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!
Actually apologies, after checking it is a Greene King pub. Perhaps the fact I thought it was a Wetherspoons is a bad sign for it...0 -
Re Chope.
Apart from the previous upskirting and today's FGM do we know which other parliamentary bills Chope has objected to ?0 -
Implicit in that comment is that you think someone else is leading it and it's not us. It's a denial of the reality of the EU as a collective endeavour.Richard_Tyndall said:
I am firmly of the view that many of the politicians and civil servants pushing for British membership of the EEC in the 1960s and early 70s had never reconciled themselves with the End of Empire and thought that if we joined then we would naturally end up leading the European bloc. Such was their arrogance and idiocy which has infected the Pro-EU cause ever since. You still hear it in the claims of those - including some on here - who think that if only we had fully engaged with the EU project we would have been leading it. It is utter arrogance.another_richard said:
So how do you consider all the fawning to the USA (the so-called 'special relationship'), the decades of 'Europe is coming our way', the Middle Eastern warmongering, the Gordon Brown saved the world' claims, the £100bn plus on Overseas Aid (remember how the UK was to become an 'Aid Superpower'), the claims of London being the 'World Capital' and doubtless a few more I've forgotten.
There's never been any shortage of grandiloquent dreaming - it din't start with Brexit and I'll doubt it will end with it.
You may find the kind of mainstream establishment figures you describe to be arrogant and idiotic, but that's not a good reason not to be part of the EU.0 -
I feel very proud to be British. We've made a big statement for political independence.Sean_F said:
Conversely, I feel no embarrassment at all about being British.Peter_the_Punter said:
Noble words, Bookseller, and I will try to remember them. Brexit has made me ashamed and embarrassed to be British for the first time in my life, but if it leads to a greater appreciaation of the values you refer to, well....it's something.bookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.
Of course, not everyone sees it that way.0 -
Looking at his record here:another_richard said:Re Chope.
Apart from the previous upskirting and today's FGM do we know which other parliamentary bills Chope has objected to ?
https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?mpn=Christopher_Chope
just about everything including protection for domestic abuse victims, protection from ticket touts, boundary reform, equal pay and mitochondrial donation.0 -
It is a perfect reason because I think all those leading the EU are arrogant and idiotic whatever their nationality. It is a prerequisite for success in the job. The same applies to practically every MP in Parliament as well.williamglenn said:
Implicit in that comment is that you think someone else is leading it and it's not us. It's a denial of the reality of the EU as a collective endeavour.Richard_Tyndall said:
I am firmly of the view that many of the politicians and civil servants pushing for British membership of the EEC in the 1960s and early 70s had never reconciled themselves with the End of Empire and thought that if we joined then we would naturally end up leading the European bloc. Such was their arrogance and idiocy which has infected the Pro-EU cause ever since. You still hear it in the claims of those - including some on here - who think that if only we had fully engaged with the EU project we would have been leading it. It is utter arrogance.another_richard said:
So how do you consider all the fawning to the USA (the so-called 'special relationship'), the decades of 'Europe is coming our way', the Middle Eastern warmongering, the Gordon Brown saved the world' claims, the £100bn plus on Overseas Aid (remember how the UK was to become an 'Aid Superpower'), the claims of London being the 'World Capital' and doubtless a few more I've forgotten.
There's never been any shortage of grandiloquent dreaming - it din't start with Brexit and I'll doubt it will end with it.
You may find the kind of mainstream establishment figures you describe to be arrogant and idiotic, but that's not a good reason not to be part of the EU.0 -
Indeed.Richard_Tyndall said:
I am firmly of the view that many of the politicians and civil servants pushing for British membership of the EEC in the 1960s and early 70s had never reconciled themselves with the End of Empire and thought that if we joined then we would naturally end up leading the European bloc. Such was their arrogance and idiocy which has infected the Pro-EU cause ever since. You still hear it in the claims of those - including some on here - who think that if only we had fully engaged with the EU project we would have been leading it. It is utter arrogance.another_richard said:
So how do you consider all the fawning to the USA (the so-called 'special relationship'), the decades of 'Europe is coming our way', the Middle Eastern warmongering, the Gordon Brown saved the world' claims, the £100bn plus on Overseas Aid (remember how the UK was to become an 'Aid Superpower'), the claims of London being the 'World Capital' and doubtless a few more I've forgotten.
There's never been any shortage of grandiloquent dreaming - it din't start with Brexit and I'll doubt it will end with it.
I remember reading a biography of Ted Heath written about 1973 (it didn't include the 1974 general elections).
It ended saying that Heath could look forward to Britain leading a united Europe 'able to face down both the USA and Soviet Union'.
As we know that didn't happen.
There was a change after the fall of communism when the meme 'Germany will need an ally against France' alternated with 'France will need an ally against Germany' with the arrogant assumption that our Sir Humphreys could play France and Germany off against the other.0 -
I might humbly suggest to Remainers that one of the biggest obstacles to them winning over erstwhile Leavers to their side is the assaults on Britain's imperial past, which are seen a smokescreen for attacking Britain's identity, culture, history and its greatest achievements as a nation.DecrepitJohnL said:
It isn't though, is it, harking back either to our colonial past or even to the second world war, which, of course, bankrupted the country and ended the Empire? I'm not sure what motivates the headbanging Brexiteers but it is not that.bookseller said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shitshow Brexit has become, to think some idiots like Hannan say we're worried about Brexit becoming a success.
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.
There is, I think, a disturbing ignorance of how international trade works, and what FTAs really are. Sometimes there is just ignorance in general, and not confined to Europhobes, like when we have ministers of the Crown not knowing that Dover is on the road to Calais, or that Northern Ireland nationalists and loyalists support different parties. It is fuck business; it is we have had enough of experts.
I don't know what you'd call all that but it is not nostalgia for an imperial past. It is far worse.
It plays to every Leaver fear about their fundamental lack of patriotism, and preferment to turn the last page on the story of Britain, by having it absorbed into a European superstate.
Use a different tone and language.0 -
0
-
There is an awful lot of hyperbole on here.Sean_F said:
We are not close to being a failed State.stodge said:
Perhaps we are a "failed State" obviously not in the sense of a Venezuela or a Somalia - a different kind of failure, a failure not just of a political class but of the very definition of governance in terms of setting the terms of reference for the direction of the country.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have virtually stopped listening to the news today with increasing despair at the trashing of our Country by our mps. I am willing it to go away but I know we have darker days ahead.
Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent. We see blockades of vehicles put by Maduro to stop the basic medical and food supplies coming in to help the sick children and elderly and yet we have a labour leadership that refuses to condemn him. The hounding of Luciana Berger is an ever present reminder of just how far labour has gone from its values, and many labour mps want out but cannot organise themselves to leave thereby adding to Corbyn's legitimacy
TM pointless EU travels adds to the gloom and we have the ERG, ready to crash our economy onto the rocks
I can never recall such a depressing time and if it was not for the triumphant and smug looks on the EU unelected bureaucrats I would support stopping it all now and revoking A50
I am ashamed of the ERG as must so many labour mps be with Corbyn. I will not remain in the conservative party if they drive us to a no deal
I condemn each and every mp and the media who have failed us. I do not know how this ends but I am ashamed of our politicians
It's not the fault of a political class or even a political system - to paraphrase "the fault lies not in our politicians but in ourselves". We are a complex post-industrial advanced society - technology is offering not just evolution or devolution but revolution in how it can re-order the very concepts which provided the stability and order of the 20th Century.
Such things challenge us fundamentally and they can seem overwhelming and it's easy to retreat back to the comfortable solutions of the past but the future won't allow such luxury.
Britain is one of the best places in the world to live. And I mean that sincerely, and say so objectively.0 -
I am proud to be British.kinabalu said:
Nicely written if I may say so and with much that rings true.bookseller said:
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.
Just thinking about it, I would say that I am neither proud nor ashamed to be British. I am mainly thankful to be British.
I think our values and accomplishments have made a hugely net positive contribution to the development of humanity, and I think we live in a beautiful, rich, safe and stable country with a marvellous cultural heritage.
0 -
Yup, she should run on this:AlastairMeeks said:This story suggests to me that she’s a back not a lay. First, no one will ever not vote for someone because she’s a complete nightmare. Many will see a bloody difficult woman as a selling point. Secondly, someone is worried enough about her to see her as a threat.
Baemy KLOBUCHAR: Getting shit done for AmericaA fifth former aide said Klobuchar’s toughness had improved her work, and had had an undeniable impact on her state. “Her job wasn’t to be my mentor and cheerleader,” she said. “Her job was to get shit done for Minnesota.”
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/amy-klobuchar-staff-2020-election0 -
David Davis has one.MarqueeMark said:
Has there been a more recent politician than Sir Winston Churchill to have a pub named after them?Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!
0 -
On Chris Chope, I'd have thought the solution is to amend the Parliamentary rules so that one MP can't block a private member's bill proceeding to second reading just by shouting "object".
They could, however, ask for a quick division on the matter from the Speaker, which would be an instant "aye" if it were just Chope objecting "no", or take 15-20 minutes if the house divide.0 -
Interestingly Remain won among people who identify as British and lost among people who identify as English.Casino_Royale said:
I am proud to be British.kinabalu said:
Nicely written if I may say so and with much that rings true.bookseller said:
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.
Just thinking about it, I would say that I am neither proud nor ashamed to be British. I am mainly thankful to be British.
I think our values and accomplishments have made a hugely net positive contribution to the development of humanity, and I think we live in a beautiful, rich, safe and stable country with a marvellous cultural heritage.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-and-english-identity/0 -
But, the vast majority identified as both English and British.williamglenn said:
Interestingly Remain won among people who identify as British and lost among people who identify as English.Casino_Royale said:
I am proud to be British.kinabalu said:
Nicely written if I may say so and with much that rings true.bookseller said:
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember a quote from Tony Benn describing the Falklands War as "the last twitch of Britain's colonial past". But actually, I see Brexit in these terms. All the talk of 'Empire 2.0', the constant digging up of WWII tropes and propaganda. For a small but significant number of powerful individuals in this country, it's a last desperate grasp for the past in the face of a complex and transformed world. All of us kick and rail against 'the new' to some extent, but I guess if you have vast wealth and power you get to try to turn the clock back.
I have kids Big G, so I must be optimistic: we will get through this. A poorer, more humble nation certainly. But perhaps one that can finally shake off its colonial baggage and undergo a long, dark teatime of the soul - and consider the kind of country and culture we want. I'm still proud to be British, but that pride comes from British values of tolerance, liberty and democracy. I see the coming 'Battle of Britain' after Brexit more a Jihad for this country's soul, and we need everyone to bring their best selves to the fight.
Just thinking about it, I would say that I am neither proud nor ashamed to be British. I am mainly thankful to be British.
I think our values and accomplishments have made a hugely net positive contribution to the development of humanity, and I think we live in a beautiful, rich, safe and stable country with a marvellous cultural heritage.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-and-english-identity/0 -
Not in the last census.Casino_Royale said:But, the vast majority identified as both English and British.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicityandnationalidentityinenglandandwales/2012-12-11
English identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was the most common identity respondents chose to associate with, at 37.6 million people (67.1 per cent). English as a sole identity (not combined with other identities), was chosen by 32.4 million people (57.7 per cent).
British identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was a common identity chosen by 16.3 million people (29.1 per cent). 10.7 million people (19.1 per cent) associated themselves with a British identity only.
Welsh identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was chosen by 2.4 million people (4.3 per cent). 2 million people (3.7 per cent) associated themselves with a Welsh only identity.0 -
If I recall correctly, you were making plans to move to Calgary if Corbyn got in.Casino_Royale said:...It plays to every Leaver fear about their fundamental lack of patriotism...
0 -
Fair doo’sedmundintokyo said:
Yup, she should run on this:AlastairMeeks said:This story suggests to me that she’s a back not a lay. First, no one will ever not vote for someone because she’s a complete nightmare. Many will see a bloody difficult woman as a selling point. Secondly, someone is worried enough about her to see her as a threat.
Baemy KLOBUCHAR: Getting shit done for AmericaA fifth former aide said Klobuchar’s toughness had improved her work, and had had an undeniable impact on her state. “Her job wasn’t to be my mentor and cheerleader,” she said. “Her job was to get shit done for Minnesota.”
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/amy-klobuchar-staff-2020-election0 -
This is undated!Dura_Ace said:
David Davis has one.MarqueeMark said:
Has there been a more recent politician than Sir Winston Churchill to have a pub named after them?Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
doo?dots said:
Fair doo’sedmundintokyo said:
Yup, she should run on this:AlastairMeeks said:This story suggests to me that she’s a back not a lay. First, no one will ever not vote for someone because she’s a complete nightmare. Many will see a bloody difficult woman as a selling point. Secondly, someone is worried enough about her to see her as a threat.
Baemy KLOBUCHAR: Getting shit done for AmericaA fifth former aide said Klobuchar’s toughness had improved her work, and had had an undeniable impact on her state. “Her job wasn’t to be my mentor and cheerleader,” she said. “Her job was to get shit done for Minnesota.”
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/amy-klobuchar-staff-2020-election0 -
Okay. That settles it. I’m switching allegiance. Klobuchar sounds ideal. You can stop selling her to me now.edmundintokyo said:I liked this one. Baemy is COLD
https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1094017961730469888
Dots for Klobuchar.
Klow bu charrr rah rah rah
0 -
Poo. Doo as poo, and do, in fair do. I've ordered the t shirts now to match the get the shit done for America bumber stickersReggieCide said:
doo?dots said:
Fair doo’sedmundintokyo said:
Yup, she should run on this:AlastairMeeks said:This story suggests to me that she’s a back not a lay. First, no one will ever not vote for someone because she’s a complete nightmare. Many will see a bloody difficult woman as a selling point. Secondly, someone is worried enough about her to see her as a threat.
Baemy KLOBUCHAR: Getting shit done for AmericaA fifth former aide said Klobuchar’s toughness had improved her work, and had had an undeniable impact on her state. “Her job wasn’t to be my mentor and cheerleader,” she said. “Her job was to get shit done for Minnesota.”
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mollyhensleyclancy/amy-klobuchar-staff-2020-election
I’ll get Amy to throw something at you if you dont put one on for the cameras.0 -
Hyperbole is a polite term for the remoaner circle-jerk in the comments to this thread.Casino_Royale said:
There is an awful lot of hyperbole on here.
Britain is one of the best places in the world to live. And I mean that sincerely, and say so objectively.
Gilbert and Sullivan had their ancestors nailed more and a century ago with the line about those who praise, in an enthusiastic tone, all centuries but this, and every country but their own. And that was long before George Orwell highlighted the English intellectual's instinctive hatred of his own country.
If withdrawing from the EU really makes people ashamed of their country, it strikes me that they were never proud of the country at all, but rather were proud of the EU. And least they should be honest and admit it.
I agree that Britain is a great place to live, and will continue to be so. Though I try and spend January and February (and if possible June because of my hayfever) overseas if possible.0 -
So... you say Britain is a great place to live, yet choose not to live in it got a quarter of the year because somewhere else is better. 🤣Fishing said:
Hyperbole is a polite term for the remoaner circle-jerk in the comments to this thread.Casino_Royale said:
There is an awful lot of hyperbole on here.
Britain is one of the best places in the world to live. And I mean that sincerely, and say so objectively.
Gilbert and Sullivan had their ancestors nailed more and a century ago with the line about those who praise, in an enthusiastic tone, all centuries but this, and every country but their own. And that was long before George Orwell highlighted the English intellectual's instinctive hatred of his own country.
If withdrawing from the EU really makes people ashamed of their country, it strikes me that they were never proud of the country at all, but rather were proud of the EU. And least they should be honest and admit it.
I agree that Britain is a great place to live, and will continue to be so. Though I try and spend January and February (and if possible June because of my hayfever) overseas if possible.
In addition, whilst I agree Britain is a great place, that does not mean that we rest on our laurels. It's far from perfect, and it can be improved - though I guess we might differ on the direction of 'improvement' required, especially as I reckon 'improvement' requires increased levels of taxation ...0 -
I don't think that's a contradiction, nothing weird about somewhere being a great place to live but with a few shitty months.JosiasJessop said:
So... you say Britain is a great place to live, yet choose not to live in it got a quarter of the year because somewhere else is better. 🤣0 -
We can thank the SNP for this. We all used to be British first, and that was arguably a better state of affairs.williamglenn said:
Not in the last census.Casino_Royale said:But, the vast majority identified as both English and British.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/ethnicityandnationalidentityinenglandandwales/2012-12-11
English identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was the most common identity respondents chose to associate with, at 37.6 million people (67.1 per cent). English as a sole identity (not combined with other identities), was chosen by 32.4 million people (57.7 per cent).
British identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was a common identity chosen by 16.3 million people (29.1 per cent). 10.7 million people (19.1 per cent) associated themselves with a British identity only.
Welsh identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was chosen by 2.4 million people (4.3 per cent). 2 million people (3.7 per cent) associated themselves with a Welsh only identity.0 -
It gives him plenty of cheap property and/or leaseholds; he'll be in a strong position to negotiate with the landlords or just do what he likes with the stores.another_richard said:
The ones which are profitable.FrancisUrquhart said:Mike Ashley's Sports Direct has made a bid for cafe chain Patisserie Valerie, which collapsed into administration last month.
Is there any high street chain mike doesn’t want to buy?0 -
Good morning.
1. I'm British, not English; my father was Welsh, my mother English, and I was brought up to remember my Welsh heritage. So I only identify with England when cricket's under discussion. If I want a local, regional, identity, I'm Essex (and proud), although I enjoyed the times I spent in the NE and in Lancashire.
Interestingly I've grandchildren who are half-Thai; the eldest hasn't, up until recently identified as Thai, but in her history lessons (at an international school) has been 'doing colonialism' and she's proud that Thailand is the only SE Asian country which was never a colony of a European country.
2. Yes, Britain is generally a good place to live, but sadly in my travels around I'm seeing places where it isn't. My wife certainly doesn't want to live anywhere else, although we've thought about it.0 -
Best in my lifetime, probably not fair to look back before that but I've always (since I heard a bit about him) liked Atlee.bigjohnowls said:
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
I have ancestors from all 4 home nations so see myself as British, even though born and ethnically mostly English. It doesn't surprise me that those comfortable with more broader identities are also happy to be European, and that is another facet to my identity.OldKingCole said:Good morning.
1. I'm British, not English; my father was Welsh, my mother English, and I was brought up to remember my Welsh heritage. So I only identify with England when cricket's under discussion. If I want a local, regional, identity, I'm Essex (and proud), although I enjoyed the times I spent in the NE and in Lancashire.
Interestingly I've grandchildren who are half-Thai; the eldest hasn't, up until recently identified as Thai, but in her history lessons (at an international school) has been 'doing colonialism' and she's proud that Thailand is the only SE Asian country which was never a colony of a European country.
2. Yes, Britain is generally a good place to live, but sadly in my travels around I'm seeing places where it isn't. My wife certainly doesn't want to live anywhere else, although we've thought about it.
I am proud to be English and British, and proud of Britain's contribution to the world. That is entirely comparable with finding Brexitism embarrassing and a retreat from British values. There are many sides to our country, and I will not have tossed like Aaron Banks or Nigel Farage define what being British means over people like Michael Heseltine or Paddy Ashdown. Nationalists diminish the country by excluding and dividing the country.0 -
I’m both British and English, not that I spend very much time thinking about my identity in national terms. People talking about being proud to be British seem as jarring to me as people talking about being proud to be gay. Those are both just things that I am.
Right now as a country it is heading backwards and the ship of state is going to take a long time to turn round. First of all it is going to need to take a decision to turn around and that might be decades ahead. It always walks a line between being outward-looking and welcoming on the one hand and insularity and shunning cooperation on the other hand. Sadly it has chosen for now to shun the complications of the modern world in order to pull the duvet over its head.0 -
I've always liked what I've heard about Attlee's management style. Wilson was devious, but he was able. And when he knew his health was failing he resigned. Unlike Churchill, who was pretty well out of it for a couple, at least, of years,TheJezziah said:
Best in my lifetime, probably not fair to look back before that but I've always (since I heard a bit about him) liked Atlee.bigjohnowls said:
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!
Blair was effective, but it was all about him, and not handing over to Brown earlier crippled both of them. And of course, Blair made one horrendous misjudgment; supporting Bush over Iraq. Wilson was far too cunning to get involved in Vietnam, and of course had seen what happens when Western countries get sucked into colonialist wars.0 -
That second para is superb! That's not saying I disagree with the first, but who could quarrel with the second?Foxy said:
I have ancestors from all 4 home nations so see myself as British, even though born and ethnically mostly English. It doesn't surprise me that those comfortable with more broader identities are also happy to be European, and that is another facet to my identity.OldKingCole said:Good morning.
1. I'm British, not English; my father was Welsh, my mother English, and I was brought up to remember my Welsh heritage. So I only identify with England when cricket's under discussion. If I want a local, regional, identity, I'm Essex (and proud), although I enjoyed the times I spent in the NE and in Lancashire.
Interestingly I've grandchildren who are half-Thai; the eldest hasn't, up until recently identified as Thai, but in her history lessons (at an international school) has been 'doing colonialism' and she's proud that Thailand is the only SE Asian country which was never a colony of a European country.
2. Yes, Britain is generally a good place to live, but sadly in my travels around I'm seeing places where it isn't. My wife certainly doesn't want to live anywhere else, although we've thought about it.
I am proud to be English and British, and proud of Britain's contribution to the world. That is entirely comparable with finding Brexitism embarrassing and a retreat from British values. There are many sides to our country, and I will not have tossed like Aaron Banks or Nigel Farage define what being British means over people like Michael Heseltine or Paddy Ashdown. Nationalists diminish the country by excluding and dividing the country.
0 -
Just looked up Attlee on the web and this quote came up
'Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking.'0 -
That's a different Marquis of Granby!Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
'That proves you're English. No other nation on Earth is so proud of being mongrel. I am quite offensively English myself, for I am one sixteenth French.'Foxy said:I have ancestors from all 4 home nations so see myself as British, even though born and ethnically mostly English. It doesn't surprise me that those comfortable with more broader identities are also happy to be European, and that is another facet to my identity.
Dorothy L. Sayers.0 -
I used to think that was a majority view in England. I now know it’s not. That has certainly curtailed my pride in being British, because it has always been deeply wound up in my nationality, which is English. I once believed - naively as it turns out - that we were largely an outward looking, moderate, reasonable country that had put its past, good and bad, behind it, and was looking squarely to the future. I was profoundly wrong.Foxy said:
I have ancestors from all 4 home nations so see myself as British, even though born and ethnically mostly English. It doesn't surprise me that those comfortable with more broader identities are also happy to be European, and that is another facet to my identity.OldKingCole said:Good morning.
1. I'm British, not English although I enjoyed the times I spent in the NE and in Lancashire.
Interestingly I've grandchildren which was never a colony of a European country.
2. Yes, Britain is generally a good place to live, but sadly in my travels around I'm seeing places where it isn't. My wife certainly doesn't want to live anywhere else, although we've thought about it.
I am proud to be English and British, and proud of Britain's contribution to the world. That is entirely comparable with finding Brexitism embarrassing and a retreat from British values. There are many sides to our country, and I will not have tossed like Aaron Banks or Nigel Farage define what being British means over people like Michael Heseltine or Paddy Ashdown. Nationalists diminish the country by excluding and dividing the country.
I have to admit I squirm knowing that our face to the world is people like Johnson, Rees Mogg, May, Grayling and co - incompetent, mendacious, nostalgic, xenophobic right wing English nationalists with no answers to the challenges posed by the fourth industrial revolution and globalisation. The current alternative, of course, is a nostalgic, intolerant, anti-Western left-wing party riddled with anti-Semitism and clueless about wealth creation.
There are many things I love about living in Britain and many things I remain very proud of. But pride in actually being British? I don’t think so. It turns out I am much more interested in values and views. I feel much more kinship with people who share mine - wherever they are from - than with people who see the world totally differently to me, even if they have the same passport. I am a citizen of nowhere.
From here, I struggle to see how the UK stays together, at least in its current form. I was born a UK citizen. If I live my alloted time span I expect to die an English one.
0 -
I am from Sussex first.
A Brit when I’m in Europe
and a European when I am in the US.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Very windy now, although sounds a bit less than the intense storm overnight.0 -
Amazing the difference in opinion. Jezza is very weak IMO. He has some strengths, for example he’s better on the stump than Milliband. But overall the worst Labour leader of my lifetime.TheJezziah said:
Best in my lifetime, probably not fair to look back before that but I've always (since I heard a bit about him) liked Atlee.bigjohnowls said:
He is the best since before I was born Atlee possibly better.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It was indeed - Corbyn is the worst labour leader in all my 75 years bar nonydoethur said:
OK, I'll forgive you, as you're an intelligent poster and it was probably an honest mistake (unlike that examiner who thought Harold won at Hastings).Big_G_NorthWales said:
That was not my intetion. Corbyn is a lot worse than Footydoethur said:
You implied he was a worse leader of the opposition than Corbyn. I just can't agree.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Em - I did say Foot was intelligent !!ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
I think it is true that those who obsess about their identity are often the least comfortable in it, just as Napoleon was a Corsican, Hitler an Austrian and De Valera of Spanish descent. The rest of us just get on with life without thinking about it much. That in itself separates us from the nationalists who ruminate on these things and who see it as core. It is as incomprehensible to me as the internal struggles of the Transgendered. It is not that I am unsympathetic, just that it is so alien to my own experience.AlastairMeeks said:I’m both British and English, not that I spend very much time thinking about my identity in national terms. People talking about being proud to be British seem as jarring to me as people talking about being proud to be gay. Those are both just things that I am.
Right now as a country it is heading backwards and the ship of state is going to take a long time to turn round. First of all it is going to need to take a decision to turn around and that might be decades ahead. It always walks a line between being outward-looking and welcoming on the one hand and insularity and shunning cooperation on the other hand. Sadly it has chosen for now to shun the complications of the modern world in order to pull the duvet over its head.
Nationalism and its evil twin of Populism are something that we are going to have to come to terms with as a nation, but that does not mean surrendering to their base philosophies of exclusion and willful ignorance.
Off to work now, so play nicely people!0 -
I’d say that I am seen as a Londoner in England, and English in Britain. I used to be British in Europe, now I am probably English. I am also English in the white Commonwealth and Latin America, but British in the rest of the world - except the US, where I am most definitely European. However, if I am ever asked where I’m from I always say England, for English . For English is what I am.Jonathan said:I am from Sussex first.
A Brit when I’m in Europe
and a European when I am in the US.
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I think the Marquis of Granby has so many pubs named for him because of his military rather than his political career. Didn't he pay off each of the Sergeants in his regiment by buying them a pub?ydoethur said:
That's a different Marquis of Granby!Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
Yes, and in fact the cost bankrupted him, but it's still a different Marquis of Granby.Foxy said:
I think the Marquis of Granby has so many pubs named for him because of his military rather than his political career. Didn't he pay off each of the Sergeants in his regiment by buying them a pub?ydoethur said:
That's a different Marquis of Granby!Nigelb said:
I’ll wager we don’t see many pubs called The Jeremy Corbyn in years to come...ydoethur said:
Now hang on Big G, that's most unfair. Foot wasn't the best leader but he was intelligent, a strong parliamentary performer and a man of integrity and dignity. We can't say any of those about Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:Corbyn adds to the misery as he is quite the most hopeless opposition leader since Foot, and at least Foot was intelligent.
I was mulling over leaders of the opposition who were less effective than Corbyn. I think he's worse than Lansbury, although the parallels are obvious. I think we have to go back to the Marquis of Granby in February 1848 (that being the one month he served) to find someone more extraordinarily useless.
And he at least had the self awareness to resign!0 -
IMO it is a contradiction, especially when someone is lucky enough to be able to take advantage of a yo-yo lifestyle. Unlike us plebs who are stuck here through the grim months.edmundintokyo said:
I don't think that's a contradiction, nothing weird about somewhere being a great place to live but with a few shitty months.JosiasJessop said:
So... you say Britain is a great place to live, yet choose not to live in it got a quarter of the year because somewhere else is better. 🤣
Here's a thought: a travel ban for all Brexiteers. They don't like foreign countries, let's help 'em by banning them from going abroad. Except for those that have already pissed off to go to live in Spain and such like: they should just have their citizenship revoked so they have to stay over there. Let the Spanish deal with them.
(I am, of course, joking. A little.)0 -
I do feel English when in Wales or Scotland, but that doesn’t happen much. If people ask where I am from I say Sussex. I think of the South downs and feel homesick.SouthamObserver said:
I’d say that I am seen as a Londoner in England, and English in Britain. I used to be British in Europe, now I am probably English. I am also English in the white Commonwealth and Latin America, but British in the rest of the world - except the US, where I am most definitely European. However, if I am ever asked where I’m from I always say English. For that is what I am.Jonathan said:I am from Sussex first.
A Brit when I’m in Europe
and a European when I am in the US.0 -
In other news the King of Thailand has expressly forbidden his elder sister from being nominated as Prime Minister.0
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If we ban travel for Brexiteers then we are permanently stuck with Nigel Farage.JosiasJessop said:
IMO it is a contradiction, especially when someone is lucky enough to be able to take advantage of a yo-yo lifestyle. Unlike us plebs who are stuck here through the grim months.edmundintokyo said:
I don't think that's a contradiction, nothing weird about somewhere being a great place to live but with a few shitty months.JosiasJessop said:
So... you say Britain is a great place to live, yet choose not to live in it got a quarter of the year because somewhere else is better. 🤣
Here's a thought: a travel ban for all Brexiteers. They don't like foreign countries, let's help 'em by banning them from going abroad. Except for those that have already pissed off to go to live in Spain and such like: they should just have their citizenship revoked so they have to stay over there. Let the Spanish deal with them.
(I am, of course, joking. A little.)0 -
God bless Chris Grayling. In an incredibly competitive field he must be the worst member of the worst cabinet of all time.
https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1094123923837542400?s=21
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