politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Chancellor Hammond is right: extending the Article 50 deadline

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

... The best would be a complete disintegration of faith in the democratic system and a huge rise in support for extremist parties.

Perhaps you have not being paying attention. That has already started.

Richard_Tyndall said:

... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.

The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.

Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.

The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

... The best would be a complete disintegration of faith in the democratic system and a huge rise in support for extremist parties.

Perhaps you have not being paying attention. That has already started.

Richard_Tyndall said:

... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.

The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.

Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.

The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.

The potential for the return to The Troubles is not "an excuse" for anything. It's a serious concern. Hard Brexiters are playing with fire, and many of them don't seem to care. Let's do all we can to preserve the huge progress made by the GFA. This doesn't necessarily mean us staying in the EU, but it does mean us being serious about future arrangements on the island of Ireland.

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?

Me. Still very happy with the decision.

Is this the essence of gammonism?

Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.

It's punching up. Deal with it.

Signed. A Gammon.

It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.

Selective racism is still racism.

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

"The choice is clear. We can play a role in developing Europe, or we can turn our backs. By turning our backs we would forfeit our right to influence what happens. But what happens will inevitably affect us."

And it turns out she was wrong. Staying in gave us no more influence than leaving in the end.

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.

And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

... The best would be a complete disintegration of faith in the democratic system and a huge rise in support for extremist parties.

Perhaps you have not being paying attention. That has already started.

Richard_Tyndall said:

... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.

The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.

Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.

The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.

The potential for the return to The Troubles is not "an excuse" for anything. It's a serious concern. Hard Brexiters are playing with fire, and many of them don't seem to care. Let's do all we can to preserve the huge progress made by the GFA. This doesn't necessarily mean us staying in the EU, but it does mean us being serious about future arrangements on the island of Ireland.

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?

Me. Still very happy with the decision.

Is this the essence of gammonism?

Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.

It's punching up. Deal with it.

Signed. A Gammon.

It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.

Selective racism is still racism.

Petal.

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

... The best would be a complete disintegration of faith in the democratic system and a huge rise in support for extremist parties.

Perhaps you have not being paying attention. That has already started.

Richard_Tyndall said:

... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.

The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.

Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.

The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.

The potential for the return to The Troubles is not "an excuse" for anything. It's a serious concern. Hard Brexiters are playing with fire, and many of them don't seem to care. Let's do all we can to preserve the huge progress made by the GFA. This doesn't necessarily mean us staying in the EU, but it does mean us being serious about future arrangements on the island of Ireland.

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

We were always sovereign.

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.

And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.

No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.

If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.

Pulpstar said:

How does everyone like their gammon ?

Capers for me !

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

We were always sovereign.

You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.

If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?

Me. Still very happy with the decision.

Is this the essence of gammonism?

Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.

It's punching up. Deal with it.

Signed. A Gammon.

It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.

Selective racism is still racism.

Petal.

As I’m sure many said to Asians and black British people who objected to this “banter” in the 1970s.

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

... The best would be a complete disintegration of faith in the democratic system and a huge rise in support for extremist parties.

Perhaps you have not being paying attention. That has already started.

Richard_Tyndall said:

... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.

The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.

Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.

The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.

Don't be a twat.

If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.

*she is of course twattish in other respects.

It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.

Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.

As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.

I will have to revise my classification.

I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.

tlg86 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.

And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.

No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.

If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.

And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.

And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.

No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.

If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

... The best would be a complete disintegration of faith in the democratic system and a huge rise in support for extremist parties.

Perhaps you have not being paying attention. That has already started.

Richard_Tyndall said:

... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.

The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.

Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.

The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.

Don't be a twat.

If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.

*she is of course twattish in other respects.

It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.

Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.

As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.

I will have to revise my classification.

I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.

Nah - you "assume". Very lazy assumption. But no surprise.

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

We were always sovereign.

You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.

If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

We were always sovereign.

You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.

If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.

MarqueeMark said:

The risk is that May has indeed been playing "rope-a-dope". Without the rope....

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?

Me. Still very happy with the decision.

Is this the essence of gammonism?

Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.

It's punching up. Deal with it.

Signed. A Gammon.

"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.

Were the slaves in 1862 being loutish?

(yep. Just started watching Burns' Civil War.)

Nobody is in the position of a slave.

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?

Me. Still very happy with the decision.

Is this the essence of gammonism?

Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.

It's punching up. Deal with it.

Signed. A Gammon.

"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.

Were the slaves in 1862 being loutish?

(yep. Just started watching Burns' Civil War.)

Nobody is in the position of a slave.

Some of the treatment of minorities here has been not a million miles away.

Sean_F said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.

If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.

To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.

I'm very happy to be a gammon. It's just left wing shorthand for middle aged people with right wing views.

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.

And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.

No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.

If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.

Shit happens.

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

... The best would be a complete disintegration of faith in the democratic system and a huge rise in support for extremist parties.

Perhaps you have not being paying attention. That has already started.

Richard_Tyndall said:

... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.

The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.

Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.

The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.

Don't be a twat.

If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.

*she is of course twattish in other respects.

It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.

Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.

As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.

I will have to revise my classification.

I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.

Nah - you "assume". Very lazy assumption. But no surprise.

Pulpstar said:

How does everyone like their gammon ?

Capers for me !

Sean_F said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.

If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.

To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.

I'm very happy to be a gammon. It's just left wing shorthand for middle aged people with right wing views.

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.

And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.

No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.

If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.

And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?

Describe to me the clear and present dangers from remaining in the EU that will cause deaths, as opposed to the ones that the Health Secretary is unable to give assurance will not arise in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

I appreciate that the cult is fully signed up for the necessary human sacrifices but those of us that are not completely deranged are entitled to a coherent statement from Leavers as to where they would draw the line in pursuit of their obsession.

The only answer I can give you is that I do not anticipate that leaving the EU will cause avoidable deaths.

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dadge said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?

Me. Still very happy with the decision.

Is this the essence of gammonism?

Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.

It's punching up. Deal with it.

Signed. A Gammon.

"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.

Were the slaves in 1862 being loutish?

(yep. Just started watching Burns' Civil War.)

Nobody is in the position of a slave.

Some of the treatment of minorities here has been not a million miles away.

Certainly not in modern history.

Beverley_C said:

I pointed out that Leavers were happy to see violence in NI. Like others, I also pointed out that Leavers where happy to cut NI adrift (and Scotland) in order to pursue their goals, but I certainly do not go round saying "Remain or we will be on the streets hurling bricks / burning / looting**"

** insert violence of choice.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Given you stuck your nose into the conversation in support of Beverley's argument I would suggest it was an accurate assumption as well. But then you always were willing to try to backtrack if you thought you were getting cornered.

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

... The best would be a complete disintegration of faith in the democratic system and a huge rise in support for extremist parties.

Perhaps you have not being paying attention. That has already started.

Richard_Tyndall said:

... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.

The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.

Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.

The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.

Don't be a twat.

If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.

*she is of course twattish in other respects.

It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.

Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.

As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.

I will have to revise my classification.

I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.

Nah - you "assume". Very lazy assumption. But no surprise.

AlastairMeeks said:

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.

And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.

No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.

If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.

And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?

Describe to me the clear and present dangers from remaining in the EU that will cause deaths, as opposed to the ones that the Health Secretary is unable to give assurance will not arise in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

I appreciate that the cult is fully signed up for the necessary human sacrifices but those of us that are not completely deranged are entitled to a coherent statement from Leavers as to where they would draw the line in pursuit of their obsession.

The only answer I can give you is that I do not anticipate that leaving the EU will cause avoidable deaths.

And if you're wrong? The Health Secretary is reported to have warned the Cabinet that he could not exclude the possibility and has refused to offer public assurance on the point, so your blind faith is not warranted by the available evidence.

AlastairMeeks said:

your blind faith is not warranted by the available evidence.

TheJezziah said:

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.

If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.

To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.

It does seem a bit unfair how it suddenly jumped from homosexuals, women and minorities to white men. Mocking those groups for their inferiority is part of our heritage. This mocking of some white men on the other hand is just cruel and insulting and actually hurts real people with feelings.

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Given you stuck your nose into the conversation in support of Beverley's argument I would suggest it was an accurate assumption as well. But then you always were willing to try to backtrack if you thought you were getting cornered.

No. But thanks as you have allowed me to clear my mind on the issue.

Leavers are happy to see a return to violence if their political will is not enacted on the one hand, and threaten it themselves on the other.

So what are we to make of it all? That Leavers believe that violence is a legitimate response to not achieving their aims and although we can argue whether that makes it fascism, it is pretty deeply unpleasant.

SouthamObserver said:

Dura_Ace said:

Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.

If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.

To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

SLR before my time sunshine. And I haven't lost an argument. As @Beverley_C has pointed out, Leavers are happy to see a return to violence in Northern Ireland while threatening it if their democratically-elected government makes a decision they don't like.

Outright lies again from you Topping. You really are taking top ranking in the fuckwit league this afternoon. I suggest you go for a lie down.

1. Leavers are happy to see a return to violence in Northern Ireland. They must be because they don't mind an act which would likely bring about that violence. Lies?

2. Leavers threaten violence if the referendum result is overturned (even if by, er, another referendum). Lies?

Which part is lies?

Edit: or were you talking about the SLR

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

We were always sovereign.

You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.

If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.

How easy do you think it would be to leave the WTO? Not easy at all. Does that mean we should pay any price to free ourselves from it?

Casino_Royale said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

We were always sovereign.

You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.

If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.

How easy do you think it would be to leave the WTO? Not easy at all. Does that mean we should pay any price to free ourselves from it?

You’re talking to someone who doesn’t favour no deal, so I’m not sure what your point is.

Casino_Royale said:

TOPPING said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?

You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.

It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.

For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.

If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.

It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.

We were always sovereign.

You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.

If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.

SouthamObserver said:

Philip_Thompson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

AlastairMeeks said:

SouthamObserver said:

Someone else with no idea, presumably?
https://twitter.com/edconwaysky/status/1088757969502785538?s=21

It's a death cult, so this will simply bounce off:

https://twitter.com/montie/status/1088754581918629889

Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.

The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.

We lose our ability to prevent an EU army on 30th March.

Good. Why should we prevent it?

I was responding to this from Mr Royale:

"To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price"

If Leavers really were prepared to pay any price to avoid a single European army they would want to stay in the EU. That is how to prevent one. There is no need to inflict long-term economic damage on ourselves. We can just use our veto.