... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
The potential for the return to The Troubles is not "an excuse" for anything. It's a serious concern. Hard Brexiters are playing with fire, and many of them don't seem to care. Let's do all we can to preserve the huge progress made by the GFA. This doesn't necessarily mean us staying in the EU, but it does mean us being serious about future arrangements on the island of Ireland.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
That is what happens when you live in a society rather than be a self sufficient hermit.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
Don't be a twat.
If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.
*she is of course twattish in other respects.
It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.
Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
The potential for the return to The Troubles is not "an excuse" for anything. It's a serious concern. Hard Brexiters are playing with fire, and many of them don't seem to care. Let's do all we can to preserve the huge progress made by the GFA. This doesn't necessarily mean us staying in the EU, but it does mean us being serious about future arrangements on the island of Ireland.
If both sides were trying to be serious that would be fair enough.
But when one side is simply saying we have chosen to diverge so it's up to us not to do so that isn't serious.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
We lose our ability to prevent an EU army on 30th March.
Good. Why should we prevent it?
I was responding to this from Mr Royale:
"To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price"
If Leavers really were prepared to pay any price to avoid a single European army they would want to stay in the EU. That is how to prevent one. There is no need to inflict long-term economic damage on ourselves. We can just use our veto.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
"The choice is clear. We can play a role in developing Europe, or we can turn our backs. By turning our backs we would forfeit our right to influence what happens. But what happens will inevitably affect us."
And it turns out she was wrong. Staying in gave us no more influence than leaving in the end.
Well, we will soon find out when we lose our influence completely. I think that we have historically had a strong influence on the EU. Both the Single Market and expansion to the East were heavily backed by ourselves for example, as indeed was the drive to make the EU one amongst the least protectionist areas in the world.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
Let's be very clear (I can also play at being a po-faced twat): gammonism is a thing. I don't give a stuff if you're offended by the use of this term.
Clearly you don’t, and it’s very disappointing it’s entered the vernacular of many of the ultra-Remainers, but it is still a bigoted term and robs you of any moral authority.
The fact your prejudices might be widely shared within your peer group is beside the point.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
Don't be a twat.
If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.
*she is of course twattish in other respects.
It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.
Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
I will have to revise my classification.
I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
The potential for the return to The Troubles is not "an excuse" for anything. It's a serious concern. Hard Brexiters are playing with fire, and many of them don't seem to care. Let's do all we can to preserve the huge progress made by the GFA. This doesn't necessarily mean us staying in the EU, but it does mean us being serious about future arrangements on the island of Ireland.
Trouble is, Hard Brexiters are thick as pigshit. That's where it all starts to go wrong. Most of them don't even know, nor can they agree, on what their "preferred solution" actually means.
Tyndall says (I paraphrase): as long as we're out I'm happy. But such is the ignorance of that statement that it almost beggars belief.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.
Selective racism is still racism.
Petal.
As I’m sure many said to Asians and black British people who objected to this “banter” in the 1970s.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
The potential for the return to The Troubles is not "an excuse" for anything. It's a serious concern. Hard Brexiters are playing with fire, and many of them don't seem to care. Let's do all we can to preserve the huge progress made by the GFA. This doesn't necessarily mean us staying in the EU, but it does mean us being serious about future arrangements on the island of Ireland.
I am serious about it. I want a united Ireland. The easiest way to deal with this whole issue is do exactly what is in the GFA and have a referendum in NI on reunification.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
We were always sovereign.
You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.
If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And with the help of Arlene Foster, English political independence should be achieved soon enough.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
We were always sovereign.
You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.
If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.
How easy do you think it would be to leave the WTO? Not easy at all. Does that mean we should pay any price to free ourselves from it?
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
We lose our ability to prevent an EU army on 30th March.
Good. Why should we prevent it?
I was responding to this from Mr Royale:
"To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price"
If Leavers really were prepared to pay any price to avoid a single European army they would want to stay in the EU. That is how to prevent one. There is no need to inflict long-term economic damage on ourselves. We can just use our veto.
No. They want to avoid being a part of it.
The rest of Europe can form a single army for all I care but that won't be a single European Army since last I checked we are European but won't be in it.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
Don't be a twat.
If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.
*she is of course twattish in other respects.
It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.
Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
I will have to revise my classification.
I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.
I pointed out that Leavers were happy to see violence in NI. Like others, I also pointed out that Leavers where happy to cut NI adrift (and Scotland) in order to pursue their goals, but I certainly do not go round saying "Remain or we will be on the streets hurling bricks / burning / looting**"
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
The people getting very het up at the potential for Hard Brexit deaths are the same ones who refused to countenance an investigation into the quite appalling deaths under the NHS at Stafford....
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.
Selective racism is still racism.
Petal.
As I’m sure many said to Asians and black British people who objected to this “banter” in the 1970s.
Are you seriously suggesting that applying an uncomplimentary epithet to someone who is an angry white man that has gone red in the face with indignation over something as moronic as Brexit is akin to racist abuse? You really don't have the first clue.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
Don't be a twat.
If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.
*she is of course twattish in other respects.
It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.
Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
I will have to revise my classification.
I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.
Nah - you "assume". Very lazy assumption. But no surprise.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.
Selective racism is still racism.
Petal.
As I’m sure many said to Asians and black British people who objected to this “banter” in the 1970s.
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?
Describe to me the clear and present dangers from remaining in the EU that will cause deaths, as opposed to the ones that the Health Secretary is unable to give assurance will not arise in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
I appreciate that the cult is fully signed up for the necessary human sacrifices but those of us that are not completely deranged are entitled to a coherent statement from Leavers as to where they would draw the line in pursuit of their obsession.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
Nobody is an 'expert' on economics. They may be expert at the theory of economics but real life it still depends on multiple confounding factors. Hari Seldon came close but he was a figment of Asimov's imagination.
Even uncle Vince, who is famous for predicting seventeen of the last two recessions, fails the real life test.
Quantum theory is excellent at prediction. Economics is not.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
Don't be a twat.
If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.
*she is of course twattish in other respects.
It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.
Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
I will have to revise my classification.
I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.
Nah - you "assume". Very lazy assumption. But no surprise.
You REALY have a problem with losing an argument, don't you. Suppose it's easier to win those arguments with that SLR in your grip....
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?
Describe to me the clear and present dangers from remaining in the EU that will cause deaths, as opposed to the ones that the Health Secretary is unable to give assurance will not arise in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
I appreciate that the cult is fully signed up for the necessary human sacrifices but those of us that are not completely deranged are entitled to a coherent statement from Leavers as to where they would draw the line in pursuit of their obsession.
The only answer I can give you is that I do not anticipate that leaving the EU will cause avoidable deaths.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
We were always sovereign.
You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.
If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.
I repeat it because that's the reason why you chose to fucking leave (assuming you are ok with foreigners, unlike many of your co-leavers).
And it is and was bollocks. You voted to reclaim sovereignty and we were always sovereign.
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?
Describe to me the clear and present dangers from remaining in the EU that will cause deaths, as opposed to the ones that the Health Secretary is unable to give assurance will not arise in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
I appreciate that the cult is fully signed up for the necessary human sacrifices but those of us that are not completely deranged are entitled to a coherent statement from Leavers as to where they would draw the line in pursuit of their obsession.
I would expect a spike in suicides were Brexit to be stopped.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
We were always sovereign.
You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.
If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.
We are leaving. And the likelihood is that we will be leaving completely. That is sovereignty and was a right we have always had. What we cannot do is demand that other sovereign countries tear-up the arrangements they have decided work best for them because we do not think they work best for us. We can ask, but that is different.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
The risk is that May has indeed been playing "rope-a-dope". Without the rope....
That is a potential flaw in my analysis. But Dominic Grieve is no George Foreman. I think even I could sort him out.
Actually, to be serious, the biggest potential flaw is Yvette. If her plan succeeds and No Deal gets legislated away, the remainer ranks in parliament will have little incentive to approve any deal to leave the EU that is not a BINO.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
I'm very happy to be a gammon. It's just left wing shorthand for middle aged people with right wing views.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.
Were the slaves in 1862 being loutish?
(yep. Just started watching Burns' Civil War.)
Nobody is in the position of a slave.
Some of the treatment of minorities here has been not a million miles away.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
The potential for the return to The Troubles is not "an excuse" for anything. It's a serious concern. Hard Brexiters are playing with fire, and many of them don't seem to care. Let's do all we can to preserve the huge progress made by the GFA. This doesn't necessarily mean us staying in the EU, but it does mean us being serious about future arrangements on the island of Ireland.
Trouble is, Hard Brexiters are thick as pigshit. That's where it all starts to go wrong. Most of them don't even know, nor can they agree, on what their "preferred solution" actually means.
Tyndall says (I paraphrase): as long as we're out I'm happy. But such is the ignorance of that statement that it almost beggars belief.
They remind me of the loonies in the 1980s who used to suggest that we shouldn't be worried about a nuclear war with Russia, because we would win.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.
Were the slaves in 1862 being loutish?
(yep. Just started watching Burns' Civil War.)
Nobody is in the position of a slave.
Some of the treatment of minorities here has been not a million miles away.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
I'm very happy to be a gammon. It's just left wing shorthand for middle aged people with right wing views.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
I'm very happy to be a gammon. It's just left wing shorthand for middle aged people with right wing views.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.
A friend's 19 year old son was having a great time at a party in Jamaica. "I think I've pulled!" he said, nodding to the party girl extraordinaire over the room. "Ah Grace. Yeah. How old do you think she is?"
He was somewhat startled to discover she was 69 (now 70).
I listened to Nightclubbing the other day. One of those rare albums that sound so fresh it could have been released last week. (Other contenders include Simple Minds' "New Gold Dream" - any others?)
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
Shit happens.
The leaders of death cults always find their victims from outside the priestly caste.
I must admit I don't really like the expression. It put something of a dampener on Christmas Eve lunch when looking down at my plate I was reminded of angry intellectually challenged Brexit supporters; a breed that I really would rather forget about during a time of peace and goodwill.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
Don't be a twat.
If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.
*she is of course twattish in other respects.
It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.
Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
I will have to revise my classification.
I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.
Nah - you "assume". Very lazy assumption. But no surprise.
Given you stuck your nose into the conversation in support of Beverley's argument I would suggest it was an accurate assumption as well. But then you always were willing to try to backtrack if you thought you were getting cornered.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
Don't be a twat.
If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.
*she is of course twattish in other respects.
It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.
Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
I will have to revise my classification.
I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.
Nah - you "assume". Very lazy assumption. But no surprise.
You REALY have a problem with losing an argument, don't you. Suppose it's easier to win those arguments with that SLR in your grip....
SLR before my time sunshine. And I haven't lost an argument. As @Beverley_C has pointed out, Leavers are happy to see a return to violence in Northern Ireland while threatening it if their democratically-elected government makes a decision they don't like.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
I'm very happy to be a gammon. It's just left wing shorthand for middle aged people with right wing views.
We need to unite. Apart from @Casino who is as we speak complaining to Trevor Phillips.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
We lose our ability to prevent an EU army on 30th March.
Good. Why should we prevent it?
I was responding to this from Mr Royale:
"To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price"
If Leavers really were prepared to pay any price to avoid a single European army they would want to stay in the EU. That is how to prevent one. There is no need to inflict long-term economic damage on ourselves. We can just use our veto.
No. They want to avoid being a part of it.
The rest of Europe can form a single army for all I care but that won't be a single European Army since last I checked we are European but won't be in it.
They could have avoided being part of it by staying in the EU, so clearly we are not leaving the EU to avoid being part of a European army. Likewise, we could have vetoed EU-wide taxes, so they are not a reason for leaving either.
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?
Describe to me the clear and present dangers from remaining in the EU that will cause deaths, as opposed to the ones that the Health Secretary is unable to give assurance will not arise in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
I appreciate that the cult is fully signed up for the necessary human sacrifices but those of us that are not completely deranged are entitled to a coherent statement from Leavers as to where they would draw the line in pursuit of their obsession.
The only answer I can give you is that I do not anticipate that leaving the EU will cause avoidable deaths.
And if you're wrong? The Health Secretary is reported to have warned the Cabinet that he could not exclude the possibility and has refused to offer public assurance on the point, so your blind faith is not warranted by the available evidence.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
"Punching up" is just another form of loutishness.
Were the slaves in 1862 being loutish?
(yep. Just started watching Burns' Civil War.)
Nobody is in the position of a slave.
Some of the treatment of minorities here has been not a million miles away.
Certainly not in modern history.
Yes true. I am hyperbolicising. But the point stands. Look at the race riots in the '70s, look at them in the US more recently. I think you would have to have some kind of one-eyed view of history to call that loutishness (unless you don't mean it as a pejorative).
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
I'm very happy to be a gammon. It's just left wing shorthand for middle aged people with right wing views.
I pointed out that Leavers were happy to see violence in NI. Like others, I also pointed out that Leavers where happy to cut NI adrift (and Scotland) in order to pursue their goals, but I certainly do not go round saying "Remain or we will be on the streets hurling bricks / burning / looting**"
** insert violence of choice.
Neither did I. In fact I explicitly said (as I have many times before) I would simply withdraw from politics entirely and give up voting. It was right there in the posting you responded to.
Stop trying to rewrite what people have said when it is right there in front of you. It makes you look as dumb as Topping.
SLR before my time sunshine. And I haven't lost an argument. As @Beverley_C has pointed out, Leavers are happy to see a return to violence in Northern Ireland while threatening it if their democratically-elected government makes a decision they don't like.
Outright lies again from you Topping. You really are taking top ranking in the fuckwit league this afternoon. I suggest you go for a lie down.
Given you stuck your nose into the conversation in support of Beverley's argument I would suggest it was an accurate assumption as well. But then you always were willing to try to backtrack if you thought you were getting cornered.
No. But thanks as you have allowed me to clear my mind on the issue.
Leavers are happy to see a return to violence if their political will is not enacted on the one hand, and threaten it themselves on the other.
So what are we to make of it all? That Leavers believe that violence is a legitimate response to not achieving their aims and although we can argue whether that makes it fascism, it is pretty deeply unpleasant.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
It does seem a bit unfair how it suddenly jumped from homosexuals, women and minorities to white men. Mocking those groups for their inferiority is part of our heritage. This mocking of some white men on the other hand is just cruel and insulting and actually hurts real people with feelings.
... and how many actively went out to change things outside the political system.
The standard Leaver's tactic - a hint of violence to come if they fail to get their way. It is why I view "Leave" as one step away from fascism.
Says someone who has used the implied return of violence in NI as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
The fascists could take lessons from you and your fellow travellers.
Don't be a twat.
If there is a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland there is a very real risk of a resurgence of the troubles. Theresa May has worked out (it doesn't take much working our for non-twats*) that this is not a risk that can be entertained.
*she is of course twattish in other respects.
It is just as likely as any other response. It is Beverley who is claiming that pointing out risks of violence is pandering to fascism. And yet she and you are happy to do the same and pretend it is something different. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite.
Where have I been a hypocrite? Please quote my views which lead you to think that.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
I will have to revise my classification.
I am well aware of it. Nor do I downplay the risk. Just as much risk as the consequences I fear from overturning the referendum result. It is Beverley (and I assume you since you are supporting her) who are trying to pretend one is 'pointing out the risks' whilst the other is 'threatening' . Like I said you are a fucking hypocrite. Get over it.
Nah - you "assume". Very lazy assumption. But no surprise.
Hmm, an accusation of someone being a "fucking hypocrite" would normally be offensive if it were not for the fact that it was stated by someone who voted UKIP, which therefore makes the statement so ridiculous it is beyond being even described as ironic. It is such a shame, I was beginning to think that it was possible that not all people who voted UKIP were complete morons, and then the one person that I thought might disabuse me of this very supportable belief goes and completely reverts me back to my original assumption.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
Let's be very clear (I can also play at being a po-faced twat): gammonism is a thing. I don't give a stuff if you're offended by the use of this term.
Clearly you don’t, and it’s very disappointing it’s entered the vernacular of many of the ultra-Remainers, but it is still a bigoted term and robs you of any moral authority.
The fact your prejudices might be widely shared within your peer group is beside the point.
I assume you whip yourself into a similar lather of self-righteousness every time somebody uses the phrase "until you're blue in the face" or "red-faced with shame"?
And you're quite prepared to see others die to achieve that. Good to know.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
No, I’m not pleased to see any death at all.
If they happen, you will see that as a necessary cost of Brexit. This is a risk you would accept if necessary to secure your second best outcome, apparently.
And what about deaths caused by us remaining in the EU? Would you be happy with that?
Describe to me the clear and present dangers from remaining in the EU that will cause deaths, as opposed to the ones that the Health Secretary is unable to give assurance will not arise in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
I appreciate that the cult is fully signed up for the necessary human sacrifices but those of us that are not completely deranged are entitled to a coherent statement from Leavers as to where they would draw the line in pursuit of their obsession.
The only answer I can give you is that I do not anticipate that leaving the EU will cause avoidable deaths.
And if you're wrong? The Health Secretary is reported to have warned the Cabinet that he could not exclude the possibility and has refused to offer public assurance on the point, so your blind faith is not warranted by the available evidence.
All one can do is weigh up the evidence, and take a decision, based upon the evidence. I think that a no deal Brexit would have bad consequences, but I don't consider that lack of medicines will be one of them.
There are two certainties in toxicology, and the second applies to all of science. The dose makes the poison, and you can never predict a negative. Can you say with 100% certainty that I won't live forever? We may run out of 9s before we can give the certainty but it won't be 100%.
You have a vanishingly small chance of disappearing and reappearing the other side of the moon, but the chance isn't zero.
There are chances that Brexit may cause deaths, there are chances that Remaining may cause deaths. I used to have to field questions from the public on scientific questions. The heart-sink call was a middle-class person with a high opinion of themselves and little scientific knowledge. Even when very intelligent, they would ask stupid questions and stick to their opinions no matter.
You want to believe that Brexit will leave us a charnel house. It may do, it may make no difference, or it may make things better. Who knows? I don't.
SLR before my time sunshine. And I haven't lost an argument. As @Beverley_C has pointed out, Leavers are happy to see a return to violence in Northern Ireland while threatening it if their democratically-elected government makes a decision they don't like.
Outright lies again from you Topping. You really are taking top ranking in the fuckwit league this afternoon. I suggest you go for a lie down.
1. Leavers are happy to see a return to violence in Northern Ireland. They must be because they don't mind an act which would likely bring about that violence. Lies?
2. Leavers threaten violence if the referendum result is overturned (even if by, er, another referendum). Lies?
“The lesson for the Democrats is that, in going for the heart and soul of the progressive base, it can antagonize the other side. So what you gain in one place, you lose in another,” Tyson said. “We’ve seen the coalescing of the white vote and unless something happens to break this lock on white voters — and especially white independent males over 50 — I don’t expect Trump to lose in 2020.”
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.
Selective racism is still racism.
Petal.
As I’m sure many said to Asians and black British people who objected to this “banter” in the 1970s.
Are you seriously suggesting that applying an uncomplimentary epithet to someone who is an angry white man that has gone red in the face with indignation over something as moronic as Brexit is akin to racist abuse? You really don't have the first clue.
I’d actually turn that point around on you: in the long term you’re pouring fuel on the flames of racial divisions. Trump’s election is but an early indication of how that bounces back, and won’t be the last.
Right now, you don’t care, because you hate Leavers and the demographic you most associate as having voted with them, but it will end up engulfing you too.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
It does seem a bit unfair how it suddenly jumped from homosexuals, women and minorities to white men. Mocking those groups for their inferiority is part of our heritage. This mocking of some white men on the other hand is just cruel and insulting and actually hurts real people with feelings.
Yep. I remember when Theresa May was accusing EU citizens of queue jumping the Gammons told us it was just a common or garden English phrase that had no negative connotations whatsoever and that the uppity foreigners should get a sense of humour. Different times, different times.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.
Selective racism is still racism.
Petal.
As I’m sure many said to Asians and black British people who objected to this “banter” in the 1970s.
Are you seriously suggesting that applying an uncomplimentary epithet to someone who is an angry white man that has gone red in the face with indignation over something as moronic as Brexit is akin to racist abuse? You really don't have the first clue.
I’d actually turn that point around on you: in the long term you’re pouring fuel on the flames of racial divisions. Trump’s election is but an early indication of how that bounces back, and won’t be the last.
Right now, you don’t care, because you hate Leavers and the demographic you most associate as having voted with them, but it will end up engulfing you too.
Given you stuck your nose into the conversation in support of Beverley's argument I would suggest it was an accurate assumption as well. But then you always were willing to try to backtrack if you thought you were getting cornered.
No. But thanks as you have allowed me to clear my mind on the issue.
Leavers are happy to see a return to violence if their political will is not enacted on the one hand, and threaten it themselves on the other.
So what are we to make of it all? That Leavers believe that violence is a legitimate response to not achieving their aims and although we can argue whether that makes it fascism, it is pretty deeply unpleasant.
Nope. Wrong again. Keep trying.
Warning there will be violence is not the same as advocating or supporting it. You warn there may well be violence if there is a border in NI. I think you may well be right. I do not accuse you of wanting or advocating it.
I warn there may well be violence if the referendum is overturned. I think you would have to be truly dumb not to see that as a strong possibility. That is neither wanting nor advocating. it.
Like I said you are being a hypocrite because you attack me for making exactly the same point you do as a result of political decisions.
Of course the easiest way to sort this out would be to just accept the deal.
This is the calibre of the advocates of Leave. What a complete plonker. When someone on here said he was even thicker than Nadine Dorries I didn't think it possible.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
This post is a real shame.
I thought you, of all people, were much better than that.
Be honest now. Who doesn't think Brexit has turned out to be utterly ghastly?
Me. Still very happy with the decision.
Is this the essence of gammonism?
Let’s be very clear: that word is a racial slur, plain and simple, and every time it’s used it diminishes its user and robs them of any moral authority.
It's punching up. Deal with it.
Signed. A Gammon.
It’s a racial slur like n*gger or p*ki and the same principles that underlay the unacceptability of those terms underlay the unacceptability of that.
Selective racism is still racism.
Petal.
As I’m sure many said to Asians and black British people who objected to this “banter” in the 1970s.
Are you seriously suggesting that applying an uncomplimentary epithet to someone who is an angry white man that has gone red in the face with indignation over something as moronic as Brexit is akin to racist abuse? You really don't have the first clue.
I’d actually turn that point around on you: in the long term you’re pouring fuel on the flames of racial divisions. Trump’s election is but an early indication of how that bounces back, and won’t be the last.
Right now, you don’t care, because you hate Leavers and the demographic you most associate as having voted with them, but it will end up engulfing you too.
OK I'm going to make a huge assumption here. 85% of the people who are using the term gammon, which describes a middle-aged male who gets over-excited about stuff....are themselves middle-aged males who get over-excited about stuff.
SLR before my time sunshine. And I haven't lost an argument. As @Beverley_C has pointed out, Leavers are happy to see a return to violence in Northern Ireland while threatening it if their democratically-elected government makes a decision they don't like.
Outright lies again from you Topping. You really are taking top ranking in the fuckwit league this afternoon. I suggest you go for a lie down.
1. Leavers are happy to see a return to violence in Northern Ireland. They must be because they don't mind an act which would likely bring about that violence. Lies?
2. Leavers threaten violence if the referendum result is overturned (even if by, er, another referendum). Lies?
Which part is lies?
Edit: or were you talking about the SLR
Wrong in both cases. You really do need to brush up on your comprehension skills. Evening classes perhaps.
Yep - premium boiled Gammon. For the loons of the ERG it all comes down to nationalism, xenophobia and nostalgia. That is where they are taking the Conservative party, of course. No wonder so many former UKIPers feel at home within it these days.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
We were always sovereign.
You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.
If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.
How easy do you think it would be to leave the WTO? Not easy at all. Does that mean we should pay any price to free ourselves from it?
You’re talking to someone who doesn’t favour no deal, so I’m not sure what your point is.
Gammons are touchy fuckers considering how vociferously they rail against political correctness and identity politics.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
To be a Gammon don't you have to be opposed to political correctness gone mad? Gammons should embrace their inner Gammon. It is the Gammon thing to do.
It does seem a bit unfair how it suddenly jumped from homosexuals, women and minorities to white men. Mocking those groups for their inferiority is part of our heritage. This mocking of some white men on the other hand is just cruel and insulting and actually hurts real people with feelings.
You might need to explain your use of irony to some of the Brexiteers on here. They might might take it literally in the same way as they did with Alf Garnet
You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.
If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.
How easy do you think it would be to leave the WTO? Not easy at all. Does that mean we should pay any price to free ourselves from it?
You’re talking to someone who doesn’t favour no deal, so I’m not sure what your point is.
It exposes the logical fallacy of your argument. You said that the difficulty of leaving the EU proves that it is an unacceptable constraint on sovereignty. Why not apply that argument to the WTO?
Hmm, an accusation of someone being a "fucking hypocrite" would normally be offensive if it were not for the fact that it was stated by someone who voted UKIP, which therefore makes the statement so ridiculous it is beyond being even described as ironic. It is such a shame, I was beginning to think that it was possible that not all people who voted UKIP were complete morons, and then the one person that I thought might disabuse me of this very supportable belief goes and completely reverts me back to my original assumption.
Stop mumbling at the back there Nigel. No one cares.
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
So you're fine if crashing out with no deal leads to avoidable deaths as a consequence?
You can argue that any increase or decrease in virtually any budget causes “avoidable deaths” if you’re savvy enough and I’ve seen political opponents of the Conservatives argue that’s the case over the NHS, welfare and policing budgets.
It’s normally just used as a stick to beat one’s political opponents with on policy, and give the user a warm glow of self-righteousness.
For the record, I supported (and still do support) the deal and don’t want No Deal. There is no way on God’s earth I’d do anything to help the Remain side if it did come down to a 2nd Ref, even if the alternative was no deal.
If - for example - disruption to medical supplies results in avoidable deaths, you can logic-chop as much as you like but blood will be on the hands of no-dealers. It might well be that you are completely ok with that, but if Leavers are prepared to pay any price it would be nice if they acknowledge that they may well be asking people who completely oppose what they are doing to pay that price rather than pick up the tab themselves.
It still amounts to emotional blackmail, however. Leavers consider the political independence of this country to be of supreme importance and that the EU threatens that, a perception the EU has done little to dispel.
We were always sovereign.
You’ve repeated this like it’s some killer point regularly over the last 2 1/2 years. I’m afraid it’s convinced no-one.
If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.
Given you stuck your nose into the conversation in support of Beverley's argument I would suggest it was an accurate assumption as well. But then you always were willing to try to backtrack if you thought you were getting cornered.
No. But thanks as you have allowed me to clear my mind on the issue.
Leavers are happy to see a return to violence if their political will is not enacted on the one hand, and threaten it themselves on the other.
So what are we to make of it all? That Leavers believe that violence is a legitimate response to not achieving their aims and although we can argue whether that makes it fascism, it is pretty deeply unpleasant.
Nope. Wrong again. Keep trying.
Warning there will be violence is not the same as advocating or supporting it. You warn there may well be violence if there is a border in NI. I think you may well be right. I do not accuse you of wanting or advocating it.
I warn there may well be violence if the referendum is overturned. I think you would have to be truly dumb not to see that as a strong possibility. That is neither wanting nor advocating. it.
Like I said you are being a hypocrite because you attack me for making exactly the same point you do as a result of political decisions.
Of course the easiest way to sort this out would be to just accept the deal.
I haven't attacked you for anything. The broader point as I said was that Leavers see violence as an acceptable element of modern politics. If there's a border and there's violence so be it, if the referendum and it's overturned, that way violence lies. Is the more telling point.
But yes of course, the easiest way out of this would be to accept the deal
Well, quite right. To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price.
The EU have brought this on themselves with their obsession with political union and the economics on all sides are serious collateral.
We lose our ability to prevent an EU army on 30th March.
Good. Why should we prevent it?
I was responding to this from Mr Royale:
"To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price"
If Leavers really were prepared to pay any price to avoid a single European army they would want to stay in the EU. That is how to prevent one. There is no need to inflict long-term economic damage on ourselves. We can just use our veto.
This is a predicatable canard. Us being in the EU stops nothing, it just slows it down a bit. Hence all the rhetoric about a two speed Europe. Two speed, all right, but always moving in the same direction.
An EU army and tax powers would still happen even if we stayed in it. History has shown us this and there is zero trust. Eventually, a future UK Government would do a deal and ram a treaty through that allowed QMV over it in exchange for something else which wouldn’t wholly materialise.
Yep - premium boiled Gammon. For the loons of the ERG it all comes down to nationalism, xenophobia and nostalgia. That is where they are taking the Conservative party, of course. No wonder so many former UKIPers feel at home within it these days.
Francois is not wearing a tie. It's a bloody disgrace. He certainly shouldn't be allowed in any theatres.
And if you're wrong? The Health Secretary is reported to have warned the Cabinet that he could not exclude the possibility and has refused to offer public assurance on the point, so your blind faith is not warranted by the available evidence.
All one can do is weigh up the evidence, and take a decision, based upon the evidence. I think that a no deal Brexit would have bad consequences, but I don't consider that lack of medicines will be one of them.
That's stage two of the death cult three card trick:
1. No one is talking about No Deal 2. I don't believe that No Deal will lead to any deaths. 3. Those deaths are very sad but what's done is done and the casualties of war were worth it.
There is an obvious risk, one acknowledged at the highest levels of government. You hide behind an irrational belief in pursuit of your obsession.
Comments
Selective racism is still racism.
As for your "as likely as any other response" - I didn't have you down as a pig-ignorant, small-minded little Englander such that you were unaware of the geopolitical history of our isles.
I will have to revise my classification.
(yep. Just started watching Burns' Civil War.)
Applies to Remainers like Mike Gapes and Leavers like John Mann
But when one side is simply saying we have chosen to diverge so it's up to us not to do so that isn't serious.
"To avoid a single European army (as Verhofstadht pitched this week) or federal EU taxes, Leavers will pay any price"
If Leavers really were prepared to pay any price to avoid a single European army they would want to stay in the EU. That is how to prevent one. There is no need to inflict long-term economic damage on ourselves. We can just use our veto.
And people get upset when I call Leave a death cult.
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1088709331758039040?s=19
The fact your prejudices might be widely shared within your peer group is beside the point.
Tyndall says (I paraphrase): as long as we're out I'm happy. But such is the ignorance of that statement that it almost beggars belief.
Capers for me !
If you can theoretically leave, but cannot do so practically, or even loosen the ties, then it’s a moot point.
If you all became vegans you could share the wraith like pallor of me and Chris Williamson and thus never have to suffer the pain of the ethnophaulism again.
People in the NE Midlands say Egg.
Or if their Tories Pineapple.
Fookin Capers are for the Landed Gentry mate!!!
The rest of Europe can form a single army for all I care but that won't be a single European Army since last I checked we are European but won't be in it.
** insert violence of choice.
Wrong type of deaths, I guess.
I appreciate that the cult is fully signed up for the necessary human sacrifices but those of us that are not completely deranged are entitled to a coherent statement from Leavers as to where they would draw the line in pursuit of their obsession.
Even uncle Vince, who is famous for predicting seventeen of the last two recessions, fails the real life test.
Quantum theory is excellent at prediction. Economics is not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0XLzIswI2s
And it is and was bollocks. You voted to reclaim sovereignty and we were always sovereign.
It would be laughable were it not so tragic.
Actually, to be serious, the biggest potential flaw is Yvette. If her plan succeeds and No Deal gets legislated away, the remainer ranks in parliament will have little incentive to approve any deal to leave the EU that is not a BINO.
He was somewhat startled to discover she was 69 (now 70).
I listened to Nightclubbing the other day. One of those rare albums that sound so fresh it could have been released last week. (Other contenders include Simple Minds' "New Gold Dream" - any others?)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-46999458
Jacob Rees Mogg, for example, is not a gammon. Tony Parsons, though, very much is.
There's a class element.
You were saying Mr Fear
Stop trying to rewrite what people have said when it is right there in front of you. It makes you look as dumb as Topping.
Leavers are happy to see a return to violence if their political will is not enacted on the one hand, and threaten it themselves on the other.
So what are we to make of it all? That Leavers believe that violence is a legitimate response to not achieving their aims and although we can argue whether that makes it fascism, it is pretty deeply unpleasant.
There are two certainties in toxicology, and the second applies to all of science. The dose makes the poison, and you can never predict a negative. Can you say with 100% certainty that I won't live forever? We may run out of 9s before we can give the certainty but it won't be 100%.
You have a vanishingly small chance of disappearing and reappearing the other side of the moon, but the chance isn't zero.
There are chances that Brexit may cause deaths, there are chances that Remaining may cause deaths. I used to have to field questions from the public on scientific questions. The heart-sink call was a middle-class person with a high opinion of themselves and little scientific knowledge. Even when very intelligent, they would ask stupid questions and stick to their opinions no matter.
You want to believe that Brexit will leave us a charnel house. It may do, it may make no difference, or it may make things better. Who knows? I don't.
2. Leavers threaten violence if the referendum result is overturned (even if by, er, another referendum). Lies?
Which part is lies?
Edit: or were you talking about the SLR
“The lesson for the Democrats is that, in going for the heart and soul of the progressive base, it can antagonize the other side. So what you gain in one place, you lose in another,” Tyson said. “We’ve seen the coalescing of the white vote and unless something happens to break this lock on white voters — and especially white independent males over 50 — I don’t expect Trump to lose in 2020.”
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/25/trump-2020-elections-florida-1125442
Who can do it? Biden? Beto?
Right now, you don’t care, because you hate Leavers and the demographic you most associate as having voted with them, but it will end up engulfing you too.
Warning there will be violence is not the same as advocating or supporting it. You warn there may well be violence if there is a border in NI. I think you may well be right. I do not accuse you of wanting or advocating it.
I warn there may well be violence if the referendum is overturned. I think you would have to be truly dumb not to see that as a strong possibility. That is neither wanting nor advocating. it.
Like I said you are being a hypocrite because you attack me for making exactly the same point you do as a result of political decisions.
Of course the easiest way to sort this out would be to just accept the deal.
I thought you, of all people, were much better than that.
How is that then racist/pouring fuel on fire/etc?
But yes of course, the easiest way out of this would be to accept the deal
This is a predicatable canard. Us being in the EU stops nothing, it just slows it down a bit. Hence all the rhetoric about a two speed Europe. Two speed, all right, but always moving in the same direction.
An EU army and tax powers would still happen even if we stayed in it. History has shown us this and there is zero trust. Eventually, a future UK Government would do a deal and ram a treaty through that allowed QMV over it in exchange for something else which wouldn’t wholly materialise.
Hence, Out.
1. No one is talking about No Deal
2. I don't believe that No Deal will lead to any deaths.
3. Those deaths are very sad but what's done is done and the casualties of war were worth it.
There is an obvious risk, one acknowledged at the highest levels of government. You hide behind an irrational belief in pursuit of your obsession.