politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the Article 50 exit date gets deferred it could raise doubt
Comments
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+1Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. You don't get to make that claim as you have no evidence for it. There was an obvious party that Remainers could have voted for - one that had been in Government up until only 2 years previously. And in Scotland they could have voted for the party that was far and away ahead in the polls. But in both cases those parties actually lost share of the vote rather than gaining it. If nothing else, 2017 was an utter rejection of Remain.williamglenn said:
Anti-Brexit tactical voting for Labour was the most effective weapon against a Brexiteer majority in parliament and many Remainers took advantage of it. The Labour party was merely a tool.Richard_Tyndall said:
But what it explicitly rejects is remaining. So I assume you reject remaining as well?williamglenn said:
I accept the result too. That doesn't mean I think it binds me to support leaving the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
“Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.”williamglenn said:
When May called the election her main justification was this:
"In recent weeks, Labour have threatened to vote against the final agreement we reach with the European Union, the Liberal Democrats have said they want to grind the business of government to a standstill, the S.N.P. say they will vote against the legislation that formally repeals Britain’s membership of the European Union and unelected members of the House of Lords have vowed to fight us every step of the way. Our opponents believe because the government’s majority is so small that our resolve will weaken and that they can force us to change course."
There's no way the 2017 election result can be read as an endorsement of Brexit.
No ifs, no buts.
Labour's manifesto also says:
"We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union"
"We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option"0 -
He's highly effective, but a man of no honour.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Lol. So the whole of London, having backed Remain in the referendum, was swept by Brexit fever for the General Election and then returned to being strongly Remain immediately afterwards.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. You don't get to make that claim as you have no evidence for it. There was an obvious party that Remainers could have voted for - one that had been in Government up until only 2 years previously. And in Scotland they could have voted for the party that was far and away ahead in the polls. But in both cases those parties actually lost share of the vote rather than gaining it. If nothing else, 2017 was an utter rejection of Remain.williamglenn said:
Anti-Brexit tactical voting for Labour was the most effective weapon against a Brexiteer majority in parliament and many Remainers took advantage of it. The Labour party was merely a tool.Richard_Tyndall said:
But what it explicitly rejects is remaining. So I assume you reject remaining as well?williamglenn said:
I accept the result too. That doesn't mean I think it binds me to support leaving the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
“Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.”williamglenn said:
When May called the election her main justification was this:
"In recent weeks, Labour have threatened to vote against the final agreement we reach with the European Union, the Liberal Democrats have said they want to grind the business of government to a standstill, the S.N.P. say they will vote against the legislation that formally repeals Britain’s membership of the European Union and unelected members of the House of Lords have vowed to fight us every step of the way. Our opponents believe because the government’s majority is so small that our resolve will weaken and that they can force us to change course."
There's no way the 2017 election result can be read as an endorsement of Brexit.
No ifs, no buts.
Labour's manifesto also says:
"We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union"
"We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option"
The Brexit government lost its majority, against all expectations. Your contortions are amusing but not particularly convincing.0 -
One of the problems that the pro-EU people have is that even in March next year continental EU may well be in recession. Extend article 50 and the recession may well be deeper.
If the UK still keeps growing, albeit slowly, then the remain campaign would be fighting on why rejoin an economic model that is not very robust and of course the unemployed youth of the continental EU will be over here looking for work.0 -
Not if he's changed his name to Damien.Sean_F said:
He's highly effective, but a man of no honour.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Either is a possibility, so they are perfectly free to vote down the deal. Thatvis one of the features of representative democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:
And you think a Labour Government would dare go into a GE with anything other than a commitment to Leave still in its manifesto? They would be committing electoral suicide.Foxy said:
Hence the option of a GE and a fresh Labour government led negotiation.Richard_Tyndall said:
But they are obliged to reject the option of remaining.Foxy said:
Sure, Labour will have negotiated a different deal though. They are not obliged to back a Tory one.Richard_Tyndall said:
“Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.”williamglenn said:
When May called the election her main justification was this:
"In recent weeks, Labour have threatened to vote against the final agreement we reach with the European Union, the Liberal Democrats have said they want to grind the business of government to a standstill, the S.N.P. say they will vote against the legislation that formally repeals Britain’s membership of the European Union and unelected members of the House of Lords have vowed to fight us every step of the way. Our opponents believe because the government’s majority is so small that our resolve will weaken and that they can force us to change course."
There's no way the 2017 election result can be read as an endorsement of Brexit.
No ifs, no buts.
Moreover they would leave themselves open to the very obvious and correct claim that the EU has already said it will not reopen negotiations.
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Anyone who canvassed in London in 2017 - which I did extensively - will have come across many voters who said they were deserting the Tories because of Brexit. I well remember being asked to canvass some large houses overlooking a park, which I naturally approached with some apprehension as I did not expect the residents to by enamoured of Corbyn style socialism, but, much to my surprise, most of them said they were voting Labour because of Brexit. This was the first inclination I had that the Tories would not gain the landslide victory that was then expected.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. You don't get to make that claim as you have no evidence for it. There was an obvious party that Remainers could have voted for - one that had been in Government up until only 2 years previously. And in Scotland they could have voted for the party that was far and away ahead in the polls. But in both cases those parties actually lost share of the vote rather than gaining it. If nothing else, 2017 was an utter rejection of Remain.williamglenn said:
Anti-Brexit tactical voting for Labour was the most effective weapon against a Brexiteer majority in parliament and many Remainers took advantage of it. The Labour party was merely a tool.Richard_Tyndall said:
But what it explicitly rejects is remaining. So I assume you reject remaining as well?williamglenn said:
I accept the result too. That doesn't mean I think it binds me to support leaving the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
“Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.”williamglenn said:
When May called the election her main justification was this:
"In recent weeks, Labour have threatened to vote against the final agreement we reach with the European Union, the Liberal Democrats have said they want to grind the business of government to a standstill, the S.N.P. say they will vote against the legislation that formally repeals Britain’s membership of the European Union and unelected members of the House of Lords have vowed to fight us every step of the way. Our opponents believe because the government’s majority is so small that our resolve will weaken and that they can force us to change course."
There's no way the 2017 election result can be read as an endorsement of Brexit.
No ifs, no buts.
Labour's manifesto also says:
"We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union"
"We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option"0 -
But what about the other problems?Nemtynakht said:
Time is a red herring imv. If Parliament decided on a referendum then the EU would allow an extension to enact.Black_Rook said:
But that just brings us back to all the obstacles blocking the way to a second referendum. There's probably not enough time to organise one properly if Parliament decided to start tomorrow. Leave it another few weeks whilst they try to thrash out their options and then how's it supposed to happen?Sean_F said:
It 's easy for Parliament, if the public vote to Remain in a second referendum. If if they don't, then Parliament is stuck with something it doesn't want and will again try to frustrate.kle4 said:
I don't see how Parliament would have the guts to revoke without public input, but it is a logical thing for them to do if things go as they appear to, massive majorities against no deal and the deal, with far from easy alternatives.kinabalu said:
So come clean. Motion to revoke. Big majority. We stay in the EU. If that is the ultimate outcome after much ado, I will put a Parliament poster on my bedroom wall.Gallowgate said:They are opting for (ii) because it leads to Remain. Thank god.
Perhaps that is where this is leading. And perhaps the 'ado' is in some way necessary. Yes, ok, perhaps so.
But do NOT come back with another referendum. If they do that, I'm going to just ... well I'd better not say.
1. The EU may not be able to extend, because of the issue of the European Parliament elections. It may be unwilling to extend for the same reason. Or one or more member states may be unwilling to extend for other reasons.
2. The only referendum variant the EU is likely to accept is Deal vs Remain, which a large segment of the population will dismiss as illegitimate. In fact, why should anybody who wants an outcome other than Remain take the vote seriously? If Parliament vetoes a result it doesn't like once, presumably it can be relied upon to do it again?
3. Holding a second referendum in quick succession is an open invitation to everybody who doesn't get the result they want to start agitating immediately for a third one.
4. A second referendum will be a national biting and kicking competition far worse than the first one. We really don't need that right now. And it's only being proposed so that this awful Parliament can offload its responsibility to make a decision onto the public anyway.
If a majority can't be found for anything other than staying in the EU then they should revoke A50, and then submit themselves to judgement at a General Election. If they really can't abide the Withdrawal Agreement then this is the least damaging and most practical of the unsavoury options left.0 -
Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France0 -
He also said he would stay on as leader and immediately invoke article 50 the day after the referendum.IanB2 said:
Two and a half years later and we haven't found an acceptable or realistic way to do so. And Cameron is gone.No_Offence_Alan said:
But Cameron explicitly said in millions of taxpayer-funded leaflets that the decision, whatever it was, would be implemented.IanB2 said:
The legal circle was squared by making the referendum advisory only. A fact that might become relevant soon.Black_Rook said:
That, however, is at the root of all our problems: representative democracy and direct democracy don't make for easy bedfellows.Barnesian said:
Nope. The essence of OUR democracy is that people decide on who will represent them, and those people (MPs) decide what is in the interests of the people.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. The essence of democracy is the people decide what the right answer is and then the politicians act on that.williamglenn said:
Isn't the essence of democracy that people have the right to keep voting until they find the right answer?RobD said:
Ah, the old EU gambit. Keep them voting until you get the right answer.Barnesian said:
In the event of her deal being defeated, I think Mrs May will throw in the towel and say it is up to parliament to decide and enable, as government, whatever the majority of MPs decide. I think there would be a large majority supporting her deal or remain and could agree to her Deal subject to a Deal/Remain referendum. The EU would agree to an extension for that.RobD said:
If the deal is not agreed it is very likely there won’t be a Brexit.Yellow_Submarine said:Forgive my cynicism but all this talk of A50 being extended is very conveniently timed re Tuesday's vote. It smacks of the Tory whips to panic Brexiter deal refusniks that there will be no Brexit at all.
But this is boring isn't it? Let's just agree to disagree.
If Parliament hadn't legislated for a plebiscite that contained an option that most MPs didn't think would happen (and, I would venture to suggest, many of them had no intention of implementing even if it did) then we wouldn't be in this mess.
He lied about a lot of things, often in the House.0 -
williamglenn said:
My Brexit PagesCD13 said:You're young and unlearned (as Bob Dylan used to sing), so I'll forgive your ignorance.
Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
“No ECJ,” I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of Brexiteers
Foundationed deep, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now
A self-ordained professor’s tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that democracy
Is just sovereignty of rules
“Sovereignty,” I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now
In a soldier’s stance, I aimed my hand
At the bureaucrats who spun
Fearing not that I’d become my enemy
In the instant that I won
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now
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I thought the numbers were way down?Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France0 -
So err avoiding no deal and not supporting the tory deal meets those criteria.Richard_Tyndall said:
“Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.”williamglenn said:
The Labour manifesto explicitly rules out no deal and explicitly rules out supporting the Conservative Brexit policy.Richard_Tyndall said:
Then they have no claim to have a mandate.IanB2 said:
If you read the Labour manifesto it is very carefully worded. And, anyhow, the formal position is that we were each electing individuals to represent us, and collectively they don't seem to like either the deal or no deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Now William - that is naughty. Both major parties manifestos committed to leaving the EU as you well know. TM deal leaves the EUwilliamglenn said:
Over 17 million people voted against May's Brexit in 2017. There is no mandate for it at all.Richard_Tyndall said:
There is both a direct mandate (2016) and an indirect mandate (2017). You just don't like it and so are thrashing around for ways to legitimise your dislike of democracy.IanB2 said:
Going ahead with this nonsense and damaging the country without a direct mandate would certainly be both undemocratic and undermine voters' faith, once they feel the consequences.RobD said:
Keeping voter’s faith in democracy is.williamglenn said:
Protecting the image of politicians is the worst possible reason for going ahead with Brexit. The national interest comes ahead of the vanity of a few hundred people.Black_Rook said:
I very much doubt that cancelling Brexit will lead to any serious outbreaks of violence.williamglenn said:
In would also completely neuter the project fear about civil unrest after revocation. Either the extension will happen without disorder, and the bluff will have been called, or there will be disorder, and we'll then be in a position were anything other than a subsequent revocation will be seen as caving in to the mob.AlastairMeeks said:On topic, any delay will show that Brexit is a movable body. It would also cripple the confidence of many Leavers. Everything would feel much more contingent.
In other words, I agree with OGH and it would be a very big moment.
Quite what it will do to the public's already low opinion of politicians, and to levels of political engagement and electoral participation, is another matter.0 -
This was from north east France and looks as if it is going nowhere for Macronkle4 said:
I thought the numbers were way down?Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France0 -
We are talking about the country as a whole, not just the backward looking, inbred Remainers lurking in their holes in London.IanB2 said:
Lol. So the whole of London, having backed Remain in the referendum, was swept by Brexit fever for the General Election and then returned to being strongly Remain immediately afterwards.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. You don't get to make that claim as you have no evidence for it. There was an obvious party that Remainers could have voted for - one that had been in Government up until only 2 years previously. And in Scotland they could have voted for the party that was far and away ahead in the polls. But in both cases those parties actually lost share of the vote rather than gaining it. If nothing else, 2017 was an utter rejection of Remain.williamglenn said:
Anti-Brexit tactical voting for Labour was the most effective weapon against a Brexiteer majority in parliament and many Remainers took advantage of it. The Labour party was merely a tool.Richard_Tyndall said:
But what it explicitly rejects is remaining. So I assume you reject remaining as well?williamglenn said:
I accept the result too. That doesn't mean I think it binds me to support leaving the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
“Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.”williamglenn said:
When May called the election her main justification was this:
"In recent weeks, Labour have threatened to vote against the final agreement we reach with the European Union, the Liberal Democrats have said they want to grind the business of government to a standstill, the S.N.P. say they will vote against the legislation that formally repeals Britain’s membership of the European Union and unelected members of the House of Lords have vowed to fight us every step of the way. Our opponents believe because the government’s majority is so small that our resolve will weaken and that they can force us to change course."
There's no way the 2017 election result can be read as an endorsement of Brexit.
No ifs, no buts.
Labour's manifesto also says:
"We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union"
"We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option"
The Brexit government lost its majority, against all expectations. Your contortions are amusing but not particularly convincing.0 -
Just watching this on C4 + 1. The crowd seemed to be peaceful. Live ammo and tear gas used. They dispersed, some into the nearby hospital. The militia went in after them shooting. They were not under attack or facing any threat from what I could see. Looks bad.Foxy said:
I was talking to a Sudanese friend, who was there for the holidays. It is a diffuse Social Media rebellion against the governing kleptocracy, fueled by inflation. We may be about to see another failed state.Sunil_Prasannan said:Sudan protests: Amnesty decries government attack on hospital
"Rights groups accuse the Sudanese government of using excessive force against demonstrators. Sudanese security forces have used tear gas to disperse hundreds of people taking part in anti-government protests in the capital Khartoum and other parts of the country.
Rights groups have accused Sudan's government of resorting to using excessive force against demonstrators, including some who were receiving medical treatment at a hospital in Omdurman."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/sudan-protests-amnesty-decries-government-attack-hospital-190111151704646.html0 -
You expect a man who takes money from Moscow and Tehran, a longstanding supporter of terrorist organisations, an apologist for murder on British soil by rogue regimes and who seems to think keeping to solemn commitments on spending is something that happens to other people to put the national interest first?Alistair said:
So err avoiding no deal and not supporting the tory deal meets those criteria.Richard_Tyndall said:“Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.”
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Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Every French government becomes loathed, sooner or later. But, the process is speeding up.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France0 -
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France
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In fairness, that's not radically different from how I feel about the DfE, OFQUAL and OFSTED.Big_G_NorthWales said:They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician ...They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense.
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Isn't that Corbyn's vision for the UK?stodge said:
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France0 -
My view is that it was dishonourable for Grieve to vote to trigger A50, and then seek to frustrate it. Clarke OTOH voted against A50, and is a principled man.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
I doubt it. Under typical socialism the health services are reserved for the few - the wealthy and well connected few.RobD said:
Isn't that Corbyn's vision for the UK?stodge said:
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France
Although in fairness for some reason they seem not to pay many taxes either...0 -
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
So far as I know he hasn't. It's just Amplefield Andy keeps saying he has (or rather, won't be standing again) without citing a source.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Seems so.stodge said:
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France0 -
I can understand thatydoethur said:
In fairness, that's not radically different from how I feel about the DfE, OFQUAL and OFSTED.Big_G_NorthWales said:They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician ...They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense.
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I don't believe he has been yet, but it has been reported there is a significant displeasure at his actions....Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
And is voting for TM dealSean_F said:
My view is that it was dishonourable for Grieve to vote to trigger A50, and then seek to frustrate it. Clarke OTOH voted against A50, and is a principled man.Richard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
You know the Country has gone mad when the annual politicians and journalist pancake race has been cancelled because of safety fears for those taking part0
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Bring on the reurn of Nick Palmer!Richard_Tyndall said:
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said: 0 -
I could make a pun on that, but I fear all my 'ealth and safety jokes would fall flat.Big_G_NorthWales said:You know the Country has gone mad when the annual politicians and journalist pancake race has been cancelled because of safety fears for those taking part
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You truly are unstoppable....ydoethur said:
I could make a pun on that, but I fear all my 'ealth and safety jokes would fall flat.Big_G_NorthWales said:You know the Country has gone mad when the annual politicians and journalist pancake race has been cancelled because of safety fears for those taking part
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Now somebody's panning my jokes.RobD said:
You truly are unstoppable....ydoethur said:
I could make a pun on that, but I fear all my 'ealth and safety jokes would fall flat.Big_G_NorthWales said:You know the Country has gone mad when the annual politicians and journalist pancake race has been cancelled because of safety fears for those taking part
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Broxtowe is a Remain constituency now.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:
0 -
Too much eggs and flour for safety!Big_G_NorthWales said:You know the Country has gone mad when the annual politicians and journalist pancake race has been cancelled because of safety fears for those taking part
Lets bring back tarring and feathering instead.0 -
Clearly the officer in question misunderstood when told they would be using batter.Foxy said:
Too much eggs and flour for safety!Big_G_NorthWales said:You know the Country has gone mad when the annual politicians and journalist pancake race has been cancelled because of safety fears for those taking part
Lets bring back tarring and feathering instead.0 -
Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...0 -
I think Nick Boles may be in more danger of deselection.MarqueeMark said:
I don't believe he has been yet, but it has been reported there is a significant displeasure at his actions....Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
If Brexit is cancelled perhaps we should refuse to pay taxes. Take a leaf out of the Americans' book. No taxation without representation.stodge said:
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France
It'd probably be more effective at bringing our political class to heel than a few far right nutters taking to the streets.0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.0 -
Meaningless. You keep relying on these polls when we all know they bear no relation to reality as vote after vote has shown us.williamglenn said:
Broxtowe is a Remain constituency now.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
In that case either Corbyn and John are not typical or are not socialists (or of course you are wrong).ydoethur said:
I doubt it. Under typical socialism the health services are reserved for the few - the wealthy and well connected few.RobD said:
Isn't that Corbyn's vision for the UK?stodge said:
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France
Although in fairness for some reason they seem not to pay many taxes either...
For all their faults, neither seeks wealth or privileges for themselves.0 -
Well of course I would support that without question. I could be one of those rare Brexiteers for Palmer.... though he might not appreciate that associationFoxy said:
Bring on the reurn of Nick Palmer!Richard_Tyndall said:
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said: 0 -
The country has not gone mad, it is snowflake politicians. There is no doubt in my mind that both sides of protesters would have let the MP's have a pancake race in peace and quiet.Big_G_NorthWales said:You know the Country has gone mad when the annual politicians and journalist pancake race has been cancelled because of safety fears for those taking part
In saying this I do not condone the aggressive barracking of MPs, just that I believe they know when not to cross the line.0 -
Indeed. Grieve's constituency voted Remain.JohnO said:
I think Nick Boles may be in more danger of deselection.MarqueeMark said:
I don't believe he has been yet, but it has been reported there is a significant displeasure at his actions....Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
A very high proportion of Leavers are pensioners or on benefits. Perhaps we could cut these if there was a tax strike?kyf_100 said:
If Brexit is cancelled perhaps we should refuse to pay taxes. Take a leaf out of the Americans' book. No taxation without representation.stodge said:
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France
It'd probably be more effective at bringing our political class to heel than a few far right nutters taking to the streets.0 -
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.0 -
Khrushchev didn't go in for wealth accumulation (although admittedly he was less rigorous than Lenin or Stalin, both of whom remained poor).Foxy said:
In that case either Corbyn and John are not typical or are not socialists (or of course you are wrong).ydoethur said:
I doubt it. Under typical socialism the health services are reserved for the few - the wealthy and well connected few.RobD said:
Isn't that Corbyn's vision for the UK?stodge said:
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France
Although in fairness for some reason they seem not to pay many taxes either...
For all their faults, neither seeks wealth or privileges for themselves.
His subordinates, on the other hand...
(I would also add that it's difficult to know whether somebody will seek wealth or not until they're put in a position where they might be tempted by it, which is not true of those two. Chavez and Maduro are just the most unfortunate example.)0 -
I would agree with that. I think the correct point of comparison is with polls before the referendum, not the referendum itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
Meaningless. You keep relying on these polls when we all know they bear no relation to reality as vote after vote has shown us.williamglenn said:
Broxtowe is a Remain constituency now.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:
And the grim truth for Remainers is, on that basis they're pretty much back to where they were.
The glimmer of hope is the direction of travel.0 -
Decline into senescence is surely an option?grabcocque said:
My fellow citizens have brought this on themselves. My interest is if, in unravelling the lies and cherished national delusions, we emerge from the other side of the chaos, stronger and wiser.Sean_F said:
Despite your having voted for it, in the hope that it would damage your fellow citizensgrabcocque said:
Well, maybe if a softer-than-soft Brexit like that were on the table, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But it's not, and we are where we are: forced to engage with May's terrible deal, the chaos and ruin of a no-deal crash out, or doing the sensible thing, cancelling Brexit and promising never to speak of it again.Richard_Tyndall said:
But what it explicitly rejects is remaining. So I assume you reject remaining as well?williamglenn said:
Labour's manifesto also says:
"We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union"
"We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option"
A crisis is a moment of transformation. We must adapt or die. I wonder which we'll choose?0 -
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.0 -
He was refuting Boris Johnson who said it would be.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/22/david-cameron-ridicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea0 -
I think it's likely - not highly likely, but nevertheless likely - that the whole world will slip into recession this year. The US yield curve has inverted, which has historically been the best predictor of a recession. The "nowcast" numbers for China are showing GDP growth has slowed to just 1% annualised growth. And in the UK, it may be that the weak retail numbers we've seen in the last few weeks show that consumers are finally beginning to live within their means.ralphmalph said:One of the problems that the pro-EU people have is that even in March next year continental EU may well be in recession. Extend article 50 and the recession may well be deeper.
If the UK still keeps growing, albeit slowly, then the remain campaign would be fighting on why rejoin an economic model that is not very robust and of course the unemployed youth of the continental EU will be over here looking for work.
The weakness in China is particularly concerning for EU countries. Excessively high savings rates have meant that their economies are reliant on export demand. Slowdowns elsewhere inevitably hit growth - and much more than us, where we have the opposite problem. There is one small silver lining, and that is that governments (theoretically) have room to pursue policies to stimulate domestic demand. Sadly, Germany seems to be intent on forcing the rest of the EU to follow the opposite policies: reducing domestic demand in slowdowns.0 -
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.0 -
Fair enough - I would believe Cameron more than Boris.williamglenn said:
He was refuting Boris Johnson who said it would be.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/22/david-cameron-ridicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea0 -
Given a choice between the two, I'd have no hesitation voting for Nick P.Foxy said:
Bring on the reurn of Nick Palmer!Richard_Tyndall said:
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
https://twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
The one shining example that defies my belief that all socialists are bad is Pepe Mujica in Uruguay who should be an inspiration to all world leaders about how to stay true to your values and people even when you have reached highest office.ydoethur said:
Khrushchev didn't go in for wealth accumulation (although admittedly he was less rigorous than Lenin or Stalin, both of whom remained poor).Foxy said:
In that case either Corbyn and John are not typical or are not socialists (or of course you are wrong).ydoethur said:
I doubt it. Under typical socialism the health services are reserved for the few - the wealthy and well connected few.RobD said:
Isn't that Corbyn's vision for the UK?stodge said:
Really? Paying no taxes yet expecting all the services including schools and health - okay.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just listened to Mark Stone on Sky interviewing 'yellow vest' protestors and if we think we have problems, Macron has as big a crisis as well.
They will not accept his government, nor any government, do not trust any politician, and while they do not have leaders they will not change their views that they are taxed too highly and are demanding their pay is gross with no deductions to the government.
They complain of ministers and officials salaries and benefits and that they are milking the country at the people's expense
This is not going away anytime soon for Macron or France
Although in fairness for some reason they seem not to pay many taxes either...
For all their faults, neither seeks wealth or privileges for themselves.
His subordinates, on the other hand...
(I would also add that it's difficult to know whether somebody will seek wealth or not until they're put in a position where they might be tempted by it, which is not true of those two. Chavez and Maduro are just the most unfortunate example.)0 -
Why? Cameron lost and Boris won, so it's Boris's idea of a second referendum that should carry more weight.RobD said:
Fair enough - I would believe Cameron more than Boris.williamglenn said:
He was refuting Boris Johnson who said it would be.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/22/david-cameron-ridicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea0 -
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
Not meaningless, assuming the methodology of the three polls was consistent, since the recorded change is well beyond normal margin of error.Richard_Tyndall said:
Meaningless. You keep relying on these polls when we all know they bear no relation to reality as vote after vote has shown us.williamglenn said:
Broxtowe is a Remain constituency now.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:0 -
Salmond also said that the surge had taken Scotland to the brink of independence.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
/twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1083442319863492608
Sturgeon later called for a second referendum.
It was that I was thinking of.0 -
Just because Boris won doesn't mean I trust him more. In any case, the people voted knowing that the vote would be final and irreversible, as the PM and leader of the remain campaign confirmed.williamglenn said:
Why? Cameron lost and Boris won, so it's Boris's idea of a second referendum that should carry more weight.RobD said:
Fair enough - I would believe Cameron more than Boris.williamglenn said:
He was refuting Boris Johnson who said it would be.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/22/david-cameron-ridicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea0 -
If people don't like them agitating for another vote from the benches of Westminster, they can vote for someone else.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
That comment is unworthy of you Richard.Richard_Tyndall said:
We are talking about the country as a whole, not just the backward looking, inbred Remainers lurking in their holes in London.IanB2 said:
Lol. So the whole of London, having backed Remain in the referendum, was swept by Brexit fever for the General Election and then returned to being strongly Remain immediately afterwards.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. You don't get to make that claim as you have no evidence for it. There was an obvious party that Remainers could have voted for - one that had been in Government up until only 2 years previously. And in Scotland they could have voted for the party that was far and away ahead in the polls. But in both cases those parties actually lost share of the vote rather than gaining it. If nothing else, 2017 was an utter rejection of Remain.williamglenn said:
Anti-Brexit tactical voting for Labour was the most effective weapon against a Brexiteer majority in parliament and many Remainers took advantage of it. The Labour party was merely a tool.Richard_Tyndall said:
But what it explicitly rejects is remaining. So I assume you reject remaining as well?williamglenn said:
I accept the result too. That doesn't mean I think it binds me to support leaving the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
“Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.”williamglenn said:
When May called the election her main justification was this:
"In recent weeks, Labour have threatened to vote against the final agreement we reach with the European Union, the Liberal Democrats have said they want to grind the business of government to a standstill, the S.N.P. say they will vote against the legislation that formally repeals Britain’s membership of the European Union and unelected members of the House of Lords have vowed to fight us every step of the way. Our opponents believe because the government’s majority is so small that our resolve will weaken and that they can force us to change course."
There's no way the 2017 election result can be read as an endorsement of Brexit.
No ifs, no buts.
Labour's manifesto also says:
"We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union"
"We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option"
The Brexit government lost its majority, against all expectations. Your contortions are amusing but not particularly convincing.0 -
Fair enough, but that's got nothing to do with them accepting or not the outcome of referendums.williamglenn said:
If people don't like them agitating for another vote from the benches of Westminster, they can vote for someone else.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
Do you agree with Martin Wolf that China is moving to growth of about 2% pa.rcs1000 said:
I think it's likely - not highly likely, but nevertheless likely - that the whole world will slip into recession this year. The US yield curve has inverted, which has historically been the best predictor of a recession. The "nowcast" numbers for China are showing GDP growth has slowed to just 1% annualised growth. And in the UK, it may be that the weak retail numbers we've seen in the last few weeks show that consumers are finally beginning to live within their means.ralphmalph said:One of the problems that the pro-EU people have is that even in March next year continental EU may well be in recession. Extend article 50 and the recession may well be deeper.
If the UK still keeps growing, albeit slowly, then the remain campaign would be fighting on why rejoin an economic model that is not very robust and of course the unemployed youth of the continental EU will be over here looking for work.
The weakness in China is particularly concerning for EU countries. Excessively high savings rates have meant that their economies are reliant on export demand. Slowdowns elsewhere inevitably hit growth - and much more than us, where we have the opposite problem. There is one small silver lining, and that is that governments (theoretically) have room to pursue policies to stimulate domestic demand. Sadly, Germany seems to be intent on forcing the rest of the EU to follow the opposite policies: reducing domestic demand in slowdowns.0 -
Snow within a fortnight looks quite possible.0
-
Quite a lot of them - roughly a quarter - did.williamglenn said:
If people don't like them agitating for another vote from the benches of Westminster, they can vote for someone else.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
The PM resigned the day after the vote because people rejected his word. You can't resurrect individual things he said and turn them into gospel.RobD said:
Just because Boris won doesn't mean I trust him more. In any case, the people voted knowing that the vote would be final and irreversible, as the PM and leader of the remain campaign confirmed.williamglenn said:
Why? Cameron lost and Boris won, so it's Boris's idea of a second referendum that should carry more weight.RobD said:
Fair enough - I would believe Cameron more than Boris.williamglenn said:
He was refuting Boris Johnson who said it would be.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/22/david-cameron-ridicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea0 -
Not really. We are faced with people who want to destroy democracy in this country for the sake of cleaving to a foreign power. I would suggest inbred and backward looking are positively polite terms in the circumstances.rcs1000 said:That comment is unworthy of you Richard.
0 -
Is now a good time for a reminder of some selected Eurozone unemployment rates?rcs1000 said:
I think it's likely - not highly likely, but nevertheless likely - that the whole world will slip into recession this year. The US yield curve has inverted, which has historically been the best predictor of a recession. The "nowcast" numbers for China are showing GDP growth has slowed to just 1% annualised growth. And in the UK, it may be that the weak retail numbers we've seen in the last few weeks show that consumers are finally beginning to live within their means.ralphmalph said:One of the problems that the pro-EU people have is that even in March next year continental EU may well be in recession. Extend article 50 and the recession may well be deeper.
If the UK still keeps growing, albeit slowly, then the remain campaign would be fighting on why rejoin an economic model that is not very robust and of course the unemployed youth of the continental EU will be over here looking for work.
The weakness in China is particularly concerning for EU countries. Excessively high savings rates have meant that their economies are reliant on export demand. Slowdowns elsewhere inevitably hit growth - and much more than us, where we have the opposite problem. There is one small silver lining, and that is that governments (theoretically) have room to pursue policies to stimulate domestic demand. Sadly, Germany seems to be intent on forcing the rest of the EU to follow the opposite policies: reducing domestic demand in slowdowns.
France 9.3%
Italy 9.7%
Spain 15.2%
Greece 19.0%
At least Ireland and Portugal appear to be in better shape, but all the same...0 -
But the legislation for the referendum didn't say that.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.0 -
I wouldn't put it quite like that, but you're right that it's not ideal for Arlene Foster to have a veto over negotiations.Richard_Tyndall said:We are faced with people who want to destroy democracy in this country for the sake of cleaving to a foreign power. I would suggest inbred and backward looking are positively polite terms in the circumstances.
0 -
63% of Scottish voters.ydoethur said:
Quite a lot of them - roughly a quarter - did.williamglenn said:
If people don't like them agitating for another vote from the benches of Westminster, they can vote for someone else.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
I meant it cost the SNP roughly a quarter of their voters.Sean_F said:
63% of Scottish voters.ydoethur said:
Quite a lot of them - roughly a quarter - did.williamglenn said:
If people don't like them agitating for another vote from the benches of Westminster, they can vote for someone else.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
True, but why are people being asked to vote again when they were told the first vote was final and irreversible, and not subject to a second referendum?Alistair said:
But the legislation for the referendum didn't say that.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.0 -
Not least because it was advisory. Asking for further advice isn't unreasonable in the circumstances of two and a half years' failed effort to come up with an acceptable way to progress the matter.Alistair said:
But the legislation for the referendum didn't say that.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.0 -
The long range forecasts have been pointing to significant chance of a cold end to the month for some time, and the medium range are starting to suggest a temperature drop in the last week of Jan. Central Europe is already suffering unusually heavy snowfalls (parts of southern Germany and Austria are shut down) and the probability that we get hit seems to be increasing.ydoethur said:
Snow? In the UK?! In January?IanB2 said:Snow within a fortnight looks quite possible.
I dunno, what is the world coming to?
More seriously, what makes you say that?0 -
I suspect that China will have a genuine recession in the next couple of years, and that will be followed by a more "normal" economic growth rate, of perhaps 2.5-3%. (In other words it will follow the same path that Taiwan and South Korea did, of reaching middle income status, and then seeing much slower growth.)Sean_F said:
Do you agree with Martin Wolf that China is moving to growth of about 2% pa.rcs1000 said:
I think it's likely - not highly likely, but nevertheless likely - that the whole world will slip into recession this year. The US yield curve has inverted, which has historically been the best predictor of a recession. The "nowcast" numbers for China are showing GDP growth has slowed to just 1% annualised growth. And in the UK, it may be that the weak retail numbers we've seen in the last few weeks show that consumers are finally beginning to live within their means.ralphmalph said:One of the problems that the pro-EU people have is that even in March next year continental EU may well be in recession. Extend article 50 and the recession may well be deeper.
If the UK still keeps growing, albeit slowly, then the remain campaign would be fighting on why rejoin an economic model that is not very robust and of course the unemployed youth of the continental EU will be over here looking for work.
The weakness in China is particularly concerning for EU countries. Excessively high savings rates have meant that their economies are reliant on export demand. Slowdowns elsewhere inevitably hit growth - and much more than us, where we have the opposite problem. There is one small silver lining, and that is that governments (theoretically) have room to pursue policies to stimulate domestic demand. Sadly, Germany seems to be intent on forcing the rest of the EU to follow the opposite policies: reducing domestic demand in slowdowns.0 -
TBH, although I place no faith in weather forecasts, it wouldn't surprise me. It's been a mild winter so far (except for a brief cold snap in October) but all the earlier signs were for a hard freeze at some point. We're running out of time if it is in the cards, and this is normally the coldest time of the year.IanB2 said:
The long range forecasts have been pointing to significant chance of a cold end to the month for some time, and the medium range are starting to suggest a temperature drop in the last week of Jan. Central Europe is already suffering unusually heavy snowfalls (parts of southern Germany and Austria are shut down) and the probability that we get hit seems to be increasing.ydoethur said:
Snow? In the UK?! In January?IanB2 said:Snow within a fortnight looks quite possible.
I dunno, what is the world coming to?
More seriously, what makes you say that?0 -
But here's the funny thing, if we look at employment growth between 1/1/99 and now, then Spain is top of the charts, with a big increase in the labour participation rate, and we've only done about as well as France. (We have, however, done a lot better than Greece.)Black_Rook said:
Is now a good time for a reminder of some selected Eurozone unemployment rates?rcs1000 said:
I think it's likely - not highly likely, but nevertheless likely - that the whole world will slip into recession this year. The US yield curve has inverted, which has historically been the best predictor of a recession. The "nowcast" numbers for China are showing GDP growth has slowed to just 1% annualised growth. And in the UK, it may be that the weak retail numbers we've seen in the last few weeks show that consumers are finally beginning to live within their means.ralphmalph said:One of the problems that the pro-EU people have is that even in March next year continental EU may well be in recession. Extend article 50 and the recession may well be deeper.
If the UK still keeps growing, albeit slowly, then the remain campaign would be fighting on why rejoin an economic model that is not very robust and of course the unemployed youth of the continental EU will be over here looking for work.
The weakness in China is particularly concerning for EU countries. Excessively high savings rates have meant that their economies are reliant on export demand. Slowdowns elsewhere inevitably hit growth - and much more than us, where we have the opposite problem. There is one small silver lining, and that is that governments (theoretically) have room to pursue policies to stimulate domestic demand. Sadly, Germany seems to be intent on forcing the rest of the EU to follow the opposite policies: reducing domestic demand in slowdowns.
France 9.3%
Italy 9.7%
Spain 15.2%
Greece 19.0%
At least Ireland and Portugal appear to be in better shape, but all the same...
Raw unemployment numbers, I think, can be very misleading. I find it astonishing, for example, that since the beginning of the Euro, the proportion of people in work in the EU has increased markedly, while it has declined in the US.0 -
I don't much care for Anna Soubry, but I think that is unfair.Richard_Tyndall said:
Even putting aside my stated animosity towards her, it is clear she is deeply unpopular these days in her own constituency. It is not just that she is a Remainer in a Leave constituency - that possibly wouldn't matter - but that she is so strident and offensive in her views, willing to give insult but screaming blue murder if it is returned. I would be very surprised if she survives the next election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I didn't know Dominic Grieve has been deselected which is unfortunate, I expect Anna Soubry to survive, but as far as I know Ken is standing down at the next electionRichard_Tyndall said:
Which would be a shame as I disagree with Sean F about this and do think Grieve is a man of honour. But it would be a very good example of the consequences of Burke's doctrine in action. I hope Soubry would suffer the same fate but would be happy if Ken Clark survived.MarqueeMark said:
The constituency encompasses most of the University of Nottingham (the rest is in Nottingham South). There will be lots of students & university employees among her constituents.
Given the prosperous Universities have been one of the main beneficiaries of EU largesse, they are hugely pro-EU.
Soubry did well to hold on in Broxtowe in 2017. Any other Tory would probably have lost the seat.0 -
Your beloved Tory Party is happy to call general elections within two years of the last one, when it thinks (wrongly as it happens) it can win. Why shouldn’t the SNP ask for another referendum? It’s been nearly five years since the last one.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
Because that general election wasn't described as once in a generation.Anazina said:
Your beloved Tory Party is happy to call general elections within two years of the last one, when it thinks (wrongly as it happens) it can win. Why shouldn’t the SNP ask for another referendum? It’s been nearly five years since the last one.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080 -
However, what an awful lot of ordinary voters will think of it - regardless of what you or I or anyone reading this believes - is that a pledge was made and they've been swindled: the language used by the Government at the time, and the manifesto pledges from the Tories and Labour in 2017 for that matter, said that Brexit would happen. An attempt to reverse it on what will generally be regarded as a spurious technicality will be condemned as sophistry and rightly so. One can argue until the cows come home about whether or not Brexit is a good idea and whether or not it should be stopped: anyway, the point stands.IanB2 said:
Not least because it was advisory. Asking for further advice isn't unreasonable in the circumstances of two and a half years' failed effort to come up with an acceptable way to progress the matter.Alistair said:
But the legislation for the referendum didn't say that.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
And besides, the failure to make progress is the fault of all the politicians (i.e. the large majority of them) who passed this decision to the voters in the first place, and not that of the voters for selecting one of the options with which they were originally presented. I think that this whole experience has put a lot of us off referendums for life, but regardless there's no excuse for palming off the decision on the electorate for a second time because MPs are too irresolute, yellow or both to do what they're paid for and clean up their own mess.0 -
Been away for a while. I see it's still all a clusterfuck. Looks like we'll end up remaining. Not my preferred option, but it isn't all about me. Still, if we do end up staying in after a referendum, or god forbid a revocation, I can sleep safely in my bed knowing that many, many political careers have been well and truly shafted and the Tories are looking down the barrel of a M134. Every cloud and all that.0
-
The whole point about general elections - and the reason why the losers by and large accept the result - is the outcome ISN'T final. At some point, we will kick the Tories out and put somebody else in. This is complicated at the moment by the absence of any alternative, but one will emerge in the end.RobD said:
Because that general election wasn't described as once in a generation.Anazina said:
Your beloved Tory Party is happy to call general elections within two years of the last one, when it thinks (wrongly as it happens) it can win. Why shouldn’t the SNP ask for another referendum? It’s been nearly five years since the last one.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1083442319863492608
It's why the Democrats haven't tried to overthrow Trump, but Mnangagwa overthrew Mugabe.
Referendums are more problematic because there isn't really a way back.0 -
Although it is a statistical fact that snow in London is more likely at Easter than at Christmas.ydoethur said:
TBH, although I place no faith in weather forecasts, it wouldn't surprise me. It's been a mild winter so far (except for a brief cold snap in October) but all the earlier signs were for a hard freeze at some point. We're running out of time if it is in the cards, and this is normally the coldest time of the year.IanB2 said:
The long range forecasts have been pointing to significant chance of a cold end to the month for some time, and the medium range are starting to suggest a temperature drop in the last week of Jan. Central Europe is already suffering unusually heavy snowfalls (parts of southern Germany and Austria are shut down) and the probability that we get hit seems to be increasing.ydoethur said:
Snow? In the UK?! In January?IanB2 said:Snow within a fortnight looks quite possible.
I dunno, what is the world coming to?
More seriously, what makes you say that?0 -
Macedonia parliament agrees to change country's name
Macedonia's parliament has approved a constitutional amendment to change the country's name to the Republic of North Macedonia.
Prime Minister Zoran Zaev narrowly secured the two-thirds majority needed in the historic vote amid a boycott by opposition nationalists.
Protesters outside parliament denounced what they called an act of treason.
The name change is aimed at ending a 27-year dispute with Greece, which has its own region called Macedonia.
The Greek parliament must now give its approval under a deal signed by Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and Mr Zaev in June.
That will lift Athens' veto on Macedonia's bids to join Nato and the European Union.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-468462310 -
Yes. And? That is what I would expect given our weather patterns.IanB2 said:
Although it is a statistical fact that snow in London is more likely at Easter than at Christmas.ydoethur said:
TBH, although I place no faith in weather forecasts, it wouldn't surprise me. It's been a mild winter so far (except for a brief cold snap in October) but all the earlier signs were for a hard freeze at some point. We're running out of time if it is in the cards, and this is normally the coldest time of the year.IanB2 said:
The long range forecasts have been pointing to significant chance of a cold end to the month for some time, and the medium range are starting to suggest a temperature drop in the last week of Jan. Central Europe is already suffering unusually heavy snowfalls (parts of southern Germany and Austria are shut down) and the probability that we get hit seems to be increasing.ydoethur said:
Snow? In the UK?! In January?IanB2 said:Snow within a fortnight looks quite possible.
I dunno, what is the world coming to?
More seriously, what makes you say that?
That doesn't alter the fact that it was a very mild November and December in 2018.0 -
Which is awkward if it turns out that there isn't any way forward.ydoethur said:
The whole point about general elections - and the reason why the losers by and large accept the result - is the outcome ISN'T final. At some point, we will kick the Tories out and put somebody else in. This is complicated at the moment by the absence of any alternative, but one will emerge in the end.RobD said:
Because that general election wasn't described as once in a generation.Anazina said:
Your beloved Tory Party is happy to call general elections within two years of the last one, when it thinks (wrongly as it happens) it can win. Why shouldn’t the SNP ask for another referendum? It’s been nearly five years since the last one.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1083442319863492608
It's why the Democrats haven't tried to overthrow Trump, but Mnangagwa overthrew Mugabe.
Referendums are more problematic because there isn't really a way back.0 -
Simply that there is still some time to run unti we get to Easter.ydoethur said:
Yes. And? That is what I would expect given our weather patterns.IanB2 said:
Although it is a statistical fact that snow in London is more likely at Easter than at Christmas.ydoethur said:
TBH, although I place no faith in weather forecasts, it wouldn't surprise me. It's been a mild winter so far (except for a brief cold snap in October) but all the earlier signs were for a hard freeze at some point. We're running out of time if it is in the cards, and this is normally the coldest time of the year.IanB2 said:
The long range forecasts have been pointing to significant chance of a cold end to the month for some time, and the medium range are starting to suggest a temperature drop in the last week of Jan. Central Europe is already suffering unusually heavy snowfalls (parts of southern Germany and Austria are shut down) and the probability that we get hit seems to be increasing.ydoethur said:
Snow? In the UK?! In January?IanB2 said:Snow within a fortnight looks quite possible.
I dunno, what is the world coming to?
More seriously, what makes you say that?
That doesn't alter the fact that it was a very mild November and December in 2018.
0 -
We have a way forward. Leave with no deal. Which is what is about to happen due to the intransigence of hardball Leavers and the stupidity of diehard Remainers.IanB2 said:Which is awkward if it turns out that there isn't any way forward.
The fact it isn't a good way forward is a different problem.0 -
OK, fair point. It is a late one this year, isn't it - end of April.IanB2 said:
Simply that there is still some time to run unti we get to Easter.ydoethur said:
Yes. And? That is what I would expect given our weather patterns.IanB2 said:
Although it is a statistical fact that snow in London is more likely at Easter than at Christmas.ydoethur said:
TBH, although I place no faith in weather forecasts, it wouldn't surprise me. It's been a mild winter so far (except for a brief cold snap in October) but all the earlier signs were for a hard freeze at some point. We're running out of time if it is in the cards, and this is normally the coldest time of the year.IanB2 said:
The long range forecasts have been pointing to significant chance of a cold end to the month for some time, and the medium range are starting to suggest a temperature drop in the last week of Jan. Central Europe is already suffering unusually heavy snowfalls (parts of southern Germany and Austria are shut down) and the probability that we get hit seems to be increasing.ydoethur said:
Snow? In the UK?! In January?IanB2 said:Snow within a fortnight looks quite possible.
I dunno, what is the world coming to?
More seriously, what makes you say that?
That doesn't alter the fact that it was a very mild November and December in 2018.0 -
Who cares what some fucking politician somewhere calls it? May said she wouldn’t go to the country. Blair said he’d serve a full term. Only a credulous idiot would believe a single word that comes out of their mouths. More fool you.RobD said:
Because that general election wasn't described as once in a generation.Anazina said:
Your beloved Tory Party is happy to call general elections within two years of the last one, when it thinks (wrongly as it happens) it can win. Why shouldn’t the SNP ask for another referendum? It’s been nearly five years since the last one.RobD said:
It certainly doesn't, otherwise they wouldn't be constantly agitating for another vote from those benches and elsewhere.williamglenn said:
As Mhairi Black said, "The very presence of my SNP colleagues and I in this very parliament serves as evidence that we do respect the outcome of referendums."ydoethur said:
Salmond said the same thing.RobD said:
The head of the Remain campaign said the vote would be final and irreversible, and it would not be put to the electorate again in a second referendum.Alistair said:
David Cameron is a liar. This is hardly news.RobD said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/25/eu-exit-vote-no-means-no-says-pmHisMajestyKingZog said:Everybody seems to be quite cavalier about overturning the largest vote in British history.
Grant the referendum to the people.
Say that it's 'once in a generation' and you'll implement the decision.
Invoke Article 50.
Run on Manifesto promises that Brexit will happen.
Over 80% vote for Brexit in the election.
At the last minute try and block the referendum decision.
Not a good look at all...
David Cameron has delivered a stark warning to the British people that a vote to leave the EU will be final and irreversible, as he stamps on suggestions that a better deal could then be negotiated and put to the electorate in a second referendum.
Losers almost always demand a rerun under such circumstances. It's one reason why referendums aren't the best of ideas.
twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/10834423198634926080
