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  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    Agreed. That is what Varadkar is saying.
    And hence the UK will insure the house.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    It's that good old Scottish "Civic Nationalism" (sic)
    Lady Haw Haw trying to justify the propaganda. CCHQ are really struggling.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,380
    stodge said:

    Not sure what to make of this:

    https://news.sky.com/story/pm-faces-commons-defeat-which-could-shut-down-her-government-11601611

    As an example, I don't know how local Government is funded by central Government - is it an annual or a monthly or even weekly grant or allowance? If the supply of central funding to local Government were removed, a lot of Councils would be in immediate financial trouble.

    Presumably the same would be true of Academies and the NHS so I can't quite see what the Morgan-Cooper measure is supposed to do. In the US, public servants aren't paid in the event of a shutdown - are we suggesting civil servants shouldn't be paid if they continue to work?

    I can see that doing Remainers' cause a lot of good.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,251

    Agreed. That is what Varadkar is saying.
    Indeed. The UK gets no cover from the "backstop insurance policy". Tis a creation of the EU.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,380
    edited January 2019

    Firstly, the backstop exists for a reason, and wishing it away is rather silly. It's a shame that Brexiteers did not address the Irish border issue before the referendum, but I guess they just wanted to win, whatever the cost.

    Secondly, I get the impression that many of the people who wail about the backstop would just complain about something else if it did not exist.
    There are probably 35 or so Conservative MPs who are opposed to any deal in principle with the EU. They see the organisation as Satanic, and one cannot strike bargains with Satan.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,019
    Some background on Dubelier...

    https://www.bayoubrief.com/2018/07/30/the-red-pelican/
    Two months later, Eric Dubelier, an attorney originally from New Orleans (with three degrees from Tulane and a notorious record in the 1980s as a prosecutor under former Orleans Parish District Attorney Harry Connick, Sr.), plunged headfirst into the footnotes of American history: He decided to represent Concord Management and Consulting LLC, one of the three Russian-linked companies charged in Mueller’s indictment (and the only company with American legal counsel).

    Two days after Dubelier’s involvement made news, Sen. John Neely Kennedy, also a Republican from Louisiana, demanded that Mueller end his investigation completely because it “distracts in time, energy and taxpayer money.” (This year, by the way, Sen. Kennedy spent the Fourth of July in Russia, ostensibly to help lay the diplomatic groundwork for what ended up being a disastrous meeting in Helsinki between Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump).

    Six Degrees of Louisiana is a game I play on practically every story, and I also know that practically every story about a conspiracy between Russia and President Trump carries with it a stocked arsenal of ancillary conspiracies.

    Still, it’s impossible to ignore the multiple connections between Louisiana, a state of only 4.7 million people, and the elaborate infrastructure allegedly established by the Russian government to help elect Donald Trump as President. The real question is: Why Louisiana?...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    GIN1138 said:

    Morning Malc. :D
    Morning GIN, the nutters are getting nuttier and even bigger whoppers than usual are flying about as they try to justify their mental actions.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,380

    * Traitor
    * Nazi
    * Enemy of the people
    There is no difference. Each is violent, intimidatory and designed to trigger the same emotion: hate. The response of some haters will be violent, even murderous. Anyone who uses or condones such terms owns what happens next.

    It is also a fact that far left mobs have been gobbing at people they do not like, and shouting in their faces, for years. They behave in exactly the same ways as the right wing scum we saw yesterday. If you do not condemn it all, you are a hypocrite. No ifs, no buts.

    Agreed. This has been going on for decades.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    edited January 2019

    An insurance policy only makes sense if the cost of insuring is less than the cost of the risk happening.

    If the backstop means no deal then it hasn't insured against no future relationship, it has caused there to be no future relationship.

    Insisting upon the backstop at the risk of no deal is like saying to the insurance company "insure my house or I will burn it down myself".

    What this misses is that the current deal is the easy part, that's designed to be easy for the British to swallow. They want the essential stuff locked in before they get to the contentious discussions in the next stage, which will involve lots of visible, practical concessions that will make it obvious how hard the UK is getting pwned, and won't have much give on the EU side because it'll need to be agreed by all member states.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,801
    malcolmg said:

    Morning GIN, the nutters are getting nuttier and even bigger whoppers than usual are flying about as they try to justify their mental actions.
    Things seem to be getting very nasty in Westminster at the moment. I might have to claim asylum in Scotland at this rate. :D
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    Indeed. The UK gets no cover from the "backstop insurance policy". Tis a creation of the EU.
    The UK avoids a hard border. That's a lot of cover.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    TOPPING said:

    And hence the UK will insure the house.
    Why should the UK insure Varadkar’s house though?
  • TOPPING said:

    And hence the UK will insure the house.
    Or we won't and Varadkar will burn. It will be unpleasant and unfortunate but we remain open to an equitable alternative.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009

    Talking of Civic Nationalism:

    Alex Salmond's legal challenge over how the Scottish government handled sexual harassment allegations against him is to be called for an unexpected hearing.

    The former first minister has sought a judicial review of how the government investigated two misconduct complaints against him, which he denies.

    A four-day hearing had been due to start on 15 January, but the Court of Session will now also sit on Tuesday.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46428570

    Disappointment for Carlotta !

    Lord Pentland is back to conclude the case - parties agree that the probe into Alex Salmond was unfair and unlawful. Investigation reports are struck down, but he doesn’t deem that they need to be handed over. The two sides have also come to an agreement about expenses.
    Expenses awarded to Alex Salmond.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    Kos has just started a 2020 straw poll. He's running it for 24 hours once every biweek. The normal caution about online polls applies, but it's potentially a data point for where the activists are.
    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/1/7/1824180/-Daily-Kos-Democratic-Straw-Poll-inaugural-edition

    His initial selection leaves out KLOBUCHAR, but the top comment on the thread is the one that draws attention to this blunder.
  • TOPPING said:

    The UK avoids a hard border. That's a lot of cover.
    Not enough.

    Which is reasonable as the EU avoids a hard border by signing a withdrawal agreement without a backstop but that seems to not be enough for them either.

    Well it takes two to tango.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    Or we won't and Varadkar will burn. It will be unpleasant and unfortunate but we remain open to an equitable alternative.
    We can't. We can't let it burn and it's not such a bad analogy. Because guess what? He lives in a terraced house and our house is next door and our partition wall is made of dry straw and kindling.
  • malcolmg said:

    Disappointment for Carlotta !

    Lord Pentland is back to conclude the case - parties agree that the probe into Alex Salmond was unfair and unlawful. Investigation reports are struck down, but he doesn’t deem that they need to be handed over. The two sides have also come to an agreement about expenses.
    Expenses awarded to Alex Salmond.
    Because the Scottish government mishandled the case. Not because of the guilt or innocence of the accused who has faced a travesty of justice by the Scottish government's incompetence.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Sean_F said:

    I can see that doing Remainers' cause a lot of good.
    Myself (and others) have said before that the one certainty among all the unpredictability of the next few weeks, is that at some point in the process John Bercow is going to make a massive arse of himself.

    Calling a bunch of wrecking amendments to vital legislation, in an attempt to force a complete crash-out, would be a great example of this.
  • TOPPING said:

    We can't. We can't let it burn and it's not such a bad analogy. Because guess what? He lives in a terraced house and our house is next door and our partition wall is made of dry straw and kindling.
    Or we can. It depends upon your priorities.

    I don't want the government to surrender to blackmail or terrorism. We have a fair alternative ready.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550
    stodge said:

    It's curious but some seem to think a Blair-like figure could never win over here - I profoundly disagree, the first sensible centrist (and that means acknowledging the causes of populism while criticising the remedies of the populists themselves) is going to sweep the board whatever Party they are in.

    Yes, tough on populism, tough on the causes of populism. That is what we need. It's the second bit that is difficult because it depends on the answer to a difficult question. Is the main cause to be found in matters of identity & culture or of economic opportunity?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,380
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, tough on populism, tough on the causes of populism. That is what we need. It's the second bit that is difficult because it depends on the answer to a difficult question. Is the main cause to be found in matters of identity & culture or of economic opportunity?
    Perhaps there is no (or very little) centre ground in this country,.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    Or we can. It depends upon your priorities.

    I don't want the government to surrender to blackmail or terrorism. We have a fair alternative ready.

    No UK government is going to take the chance that there can be a resurgence of The Troubles.

    But we are close at hand now - let's see what happens. How about we have a £10 bet proceeds to charity that there will be an NI backstop in a deal which is concluded with the EU this year?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,396
    Mr. F, it can be difficult being in the middle. If the extremes entrench, the centre ground can feel a bit like No Man's Land.

    "Nuance?! We don't tolerate nuance here! You're a traitor, or you're not."
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795

    Sky News Breaking
    ‏Verified account @SkyNewsBreak

    Former Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond has won his judicial review over the process of a Scottish government investigation into sexual harassment complaints made against him

    ho ho ho
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,877
    TOPPING said:

    No UK government is going to take the chance that there can be a resurgence of The Troubles.
    That's the other thing that's puzzling about all this. The backstop is to insure against something happening that everyone would avoid like the plague anyway.
  • Mr. F, it can be difficult being in the middle. If the extremes entrench, the centre ground can feel a bit like No Man's Land.

    "Nuance?! We don't tolerate nuance here! You're a traitor, or you're not."

    Nuance - sounds like a french word.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550

    Did it suggest that the campaigners actually believed this, or were they just feeding any old crap to witless dupes to get themselves over the line?

    The latter.

    Little sense that a desire to reduce inequality between affluent and deprived areas of the country burns deep in the belly of the leading lights in the Leave campaign.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,380

    Mr. F, it can be difficult being in the middle. If the extremes entrench, the centre ground can feel a bit like No Man's Land.

    "Nuance?! We don't tolerate nuance here! You're a traitor, or you're not."

    Social media does not help. No case can ever be sufficiently overstated.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    Chris said:

    That's the other thing that's puzzling about all this. The backstop is to insure against something happening that everyone would avoid like the plague anyway.
    Everyone is arguing against something that no one wants. Everyone agrees. But as they say "events" (ie a WTO MFN dispute) might lead to just what everyone doesn't want. And hence the backstop.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    edited January 2019

    Because the Scottish government mishandled the case. Not because of the guilt or innocence of the accused who has faced a travesty of justice by the Scottish government's incompetence.
    Carlotta's little helper trying to hold the CCHQ line despite having had their noses rubbed in it. Dear Dear.

    PS: Complete silence on that police enquiry, they are not getting very far.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009


    Sky News Breaking
    ‏Verified account @SkyNewsBreak

    Former Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond has won his judicial review over the process of a Scottish government investigation into sexual harassment complaints made against him

    ho ho ho

    Scottish Govt Permanent Secretary apologises after conceding court case. Could cost half a million in legal fees
  • TOPPING said:

    No UK government is going to take the chance that there can be a resurgence of The Troubles.

    But we are close at hand now - let's see what happens. How about we have a £10 bet proceeds to charity that there will be an NI backstop in a deal which is concluded with the EU this year?
    I don't think there should be but that doesn't meant there won't be.

    But for charity I'm prepared to agree to it on one proviso. I've always said there will be some face saving fudge to allow the Irish to back down. So how about this? If the withdrawal agreement is passed as is without any *legally binding* changes as the EU insists must happen then I pay £10 to charity of your choice. If there are legally binding changes as the EU insists can't happen or no agreement at all (extremely unlikely) you pay £10 to charity of my choice. Non legally binding assurances alone as May is currently seeking would mean you win.

    What do you think?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,396
    Mr. F, social media can make things worse.

    That said, my political list on Twitter is frequently testy, whereas my history list tends to be very civil.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    malcolmg said:

    Scottish Govt Permanent Secretary apologises after conceding court case. Could cost half a million in legal fees
    Nicola’s gonna have fun explaining that one!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    On the basis of the tweets emerging from the Court of Session, the Scottish Government has conceded there was apparent bias on the part of the investigating officer involved in the Salmond complaints. This outcome leaves other issues about the process - legally - unresolved.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,877
    TOPPING said:

    Everyone is arguing against something that no one wants. Everyone agrees. But as they say "events" (ie a WTO MFN dispute) might lead to just what everyone doesn't want. And hence the backstop.
    Yes. But the fact that everyone would avoid it happening like the plague must make it very unlikely. So we end up jeopardising any agreement at all in order to insure against something that's very unlikely to happen. Surely getting into that position must be the result of a huge miscalculation, and the inability to get out of it is also pointing to something seriously awry.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    edited January 2019
    TOPPING said:


    The UK avoids a hard border. That's a lot of cover.

    It doesn't, it avoids a hard border during the transition period. But then the transition period will end, and at that point:

    1) Nobody knows if the UK will be able to agree to a coherent approach on the border that actually makes practical sense and doesn't involve to vague hand-waving about blockchains or whatever.

    2) Even if they can, nobody knows if the EU side will be able to pass it, or if somebody will veto it.

    Hence their insistence on nailing down their member's essential interests now, before they get to the difficult part of the negotiations.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,767
    Christophe Dettinger, the former french heavyweight champion arrestted for whacking gendarmes at a yellow vest protest on saturday has collecred 110,000 euros within 24 hours via crowd funding for his defence.


    http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2019/01/08/01016-20190108ARTFIG00059-le-succes-d-une-cagnotte-de-soutien-au-boxeur-christophe-dettinger-suscite-les-critiques.php
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550
    Sean_F said:

    Perhaps there is no (or very little) centre ground in this country.

    Well 'centre ground' is a leading term.

    IMO it means mainly market but mixed economy with strong regulation, high tax & spend, live and let live social policy, internationalist outlook, relatively open borders.

    But is that not just me defining what I support as being moderate and hellishly reasonable?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,963
    Quite a good "The long view" on R4 this morning comparing Brexit (there really is no escape) to the travails of the Tories under Balfour trying to deal with tariff reform. Unlike some of the programs where the comparison seems somewhat contrived this worked surprisingly well. Worth a listen despite the B word.

    Couldn't bring myself to watch the film last night but probably will at some point.

    Hague in the Telegraph today makes the case for May's deal well, not least because he shows some clear sympathy with the concerns of the no dealers. Will it have any effect? Not if you read JRM right below him. As in 1905 it is increasingly hard to see the Tory party in its current form surviving this. Given the alternatives available that is somewhat unfortunate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,963


    Sky News Breaking
    ‏Verified account @SkyNewsBreak

    Former Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond has won his judicial review over the process of a Scottish government investigation into sexual harassment complaints made against him

    ho ho ho

    Speaking to one of the counsel involved the Scottish Government put up the white flag at the start of the hearing. The investigation will now have to be revisited.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,349

    The rest of the country doesn't hate London enough to give it back the money it gets from London.
    Well we dont hate it's money.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,349
    Chris said:

    And they won't change the Withdrawal Agreement because the backstop is vital to avoid the danger of a hard border in several years' time - even if the presence of the backstop leads to the Agreement being rejected and to No Deal in March???

    Brexit is a bit difficult to understand at times.
    EU overreach. They had the stronger hand but have underestimated how much the commons can accept no matter how dire the consequence.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,767
    eck on tv

    abject humiliation for scottish govt
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,349

    Now there I agree with you! Agree or not, I would hate it if 'my' MP' abstained!
    It would be unacceptable. You cannot take no stance on this.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    malcolmg said:

    Disappointment for Carlotta !

    Lord Pentland is back to conclude the case - parties agree that the probe into Alex Salmond was unfair and unlawful. Investigation reports are struck down, but he doesn’t deem that they need to be handed over. The two sides have also come to an agreement about expenses.
    Expenses awarded to Alex Salmond.
    I would have thought everyone would be disappointed that the Scottish government was incompetent in handling the case?

    Aren't you?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,349
    TOPPING said:

    And hence the UK will insure the house.
    That's the gamble. It might fail and it was a needless gamble.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,349
    malcolmg said:

    On the basis of the tweets emerging from the Court of Session, the Scottish Government has conceded there was apparent bias on the part of the investigating officer involved in the Salmond complaints. This outcome leaves other issues about the process - legally - unresolved.

    How silly a thing to do. Surely someone with no actual, apparent or even potential bias could have been found?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,236
    kjohnw said:

    Does anyone with any on owledge of the details of the WA know if there is any truth to the stories of TM selling out on our defence and intelligence services being subservient to the EU. If so this seems to have slipped the attention of the main stream media

    The is no "subservient" relationship but British participation in the current co-operative structures (EUMS, Anglo-French CJEF, etc) will continue largely unchanged. To do otherwise would cost a lot of money and tories despise spending money on defence unless its subsidising BAE sales in the Middle East - eg XII(B) squadron conjured up from thin air to train Qataris.
  • Did Soubry get 'jostled'?

    I didn't like the way that she was harassed by those idiots yesterday, but I'm pretty sure I didn't see any physical contact. Some numpty in a red cap tried to block her path at the Commons entrance, but he got jostled out of the way by others.

    If the Met do decide that a crime was committed just due to the verbal abuse, then I hope there are plenty of spare cells in Manchester for the end of September.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,504

    Did Soubry get 'jostled'?

    I didn't like the way that she was harassed by those idiots yesterday, but I'm pretty sure I didn't see any physical contact. Some numpty in a red cap tried to block her path at the Commons entrance, but he got jostled out of the way by others.

    If the Met do decide that a crime was committed just due to the verbal abuse, then I hope there are plenty of spare cells in Manchester for the end of September.

    Indeed. Do the right thing once and they might have to do it all the time.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,380
    kle4 said:

    Well we dont hate it's money.
    Money doesn't smell.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    I don't think there should be but that doesn't meant there won't be.

    But for charity I'm prepared to agree to it on one proviso. I've always said there will be some face saving fudge to allow the Irish to back down. So how about this? If the withdrawal agreement is passed as is without any *legally binding* changes as the EU insists must happen then I pay £10 to charity of your choice. If there are legally binding changes as the EU insists can't happen or no agreement at all (extremely unlikely) you pay £10 to charity of my choice. Non legally binding assurances alone as May is currently seeking would mean you win.

    What do you think?
    You’re Ron.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,129

    Did Soubry get 'jostled'?

    I didn't like the way that she was harassed by those idiots yesterday, but I'm pretty sure I didn't see any physical contact. Some numpty in a red cap tried to block her path at the Commons entrance, but he got jostled out of the way by others.

    If the Met do decide that a crime was committed just due to the verbal abuse, then I hope there are plenty of spare cells in Manchester for the end of September.

    There is another issue: the safety of MPs and their staff. We recently had an MP assassinated, and a terrorist attack outside parliament. The guys protesting are nutters, and one might have a knife or other weapon - or someone with evil intent might use them as cover.

    I'd have expected the police to have reacted in a slightly stronger manner than they did. Or at all.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,396
    Mr. Jessop, they didn't when a mob assembled outside Mogg's house.
  • Did Soubry get 'jostled'?

    I didn't like the way that she was harassed by those idiots yesterday, but I'm pretty sure I didn't see any physical contact. Some numpty in a red cap tried to block her path at the Commons entrance, but he got jostled out of the way by others.

    If the Met do decide that a crime was committed just due to the verbal abuse, then I hope there are plenty of spare cells in Manchester for the end of September.

    Yes indeed. Some may want to reconsider if they want calling a Tory a Nazi to be a criminal offence.

    Maybe we can see some justice for those erecting gallows in Manchester etc now?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,380

    There is another issue: the safety of MPs and their staff. We recently had an MP assassinated, and a terrorist attack outside parliament. The guys protesting are nutters, and one might have a knife or other weapon - or someone with evil intent might use them as cover.

    I'd have expected the police to have reacted in a slightly stronger manner than they did. Or at all.
    That's the worry. It would be very easy to stab an MP in that situation.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795

    Yes indeed. Some may want to reconsider if they want calling a Tory a Nazi to be a criminal offence.

    Maybe we can see some justice for those erecting gallows in Manchester etc now?
    Indeed. If calling someone a Nazi (and similar) is made to be a serious concern, then the police would have to take a much harder line on many protests by the left..
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    eck on tv

    abject humiliation for scottish govt

    Oh, Nicola!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550
    The Irish Backstop:

    It seems to me that it dictates a very 'soft' Brexit, with these caveats:

    - Unless we can accept major customs & regulatory differences between NI and ROUK.
    - Or unless there really is viable technology to render a border in Ireland invisible.

    Is that not why 'hard' Brexit supporters hate it? Because it makes their preferred outcome to the FTA talks that much less likely?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,129

    Mr. Jessop, they didn't when a mob assembled outside Mogg's house.

    Two wrongs do not make a right. But anyway, the situations are different: there are loads of police around parliament at all times; there are probably not that many outside Mogg's house as standard to intervene.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    This is what happens when people stop punching the far right.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,767

    German police have arrested a 20 year old for hacking the german parliament and releasing MPs data. His defence is he was pissed off with politicans,


    https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/tatverdaechtiger-nennt-aerger-ueber-politiker-als-motiv-15977887.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,396
    Mr. Jessop, I agree. But consistency is also a requirement for the law to be enforced fairly, and to be respected.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,767
    edited January 2019

    Two wrongs do not make a right. But anyway, the situations are different: there are loads of police around parliament at all times; there are probably not that many outside Mogg's house as standard to intervene.
    both issues are the same

    the proponents have been filmed in flagrante delicto by major broadcasters. Any offence is on camera and the police can round the suspects up quite easily.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    Chris said:

    Yes. But the fact that everyone would avoid it happening like the plague must make it very unlikely. So we end up jeopardising any agreement at all in order to insure against something that's very unlikely to happen. Surely getting into that position must be the result of a huge miscalculation, and the inability to get out of it is also pointing to something seriously awry.

    No one wants it but under certain circumstances it could be out of their hands.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited January 2019
    We used to be a nation that would mobilise entire nations to stop the spread of the far right.

    The Battle of Cable Street was a shining example of the UK's long and proud heritage in driving extremist thugs from our streets.

    Now look at us. They operate openly in Parliament Square and even the police do nothing.

    Sad what we're reduced to as a nation.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    It doesn't, it avoids a hard border during the transition period. But then the transition period will end, and at that point:

    1) Nobody knows if the UK will be able to agree to a coherent approach on the border that actually makes practical sense and doesn't involve to vague hand-waving about blockchains or whatever.

    2) Even if they can, nobody knows if the EU side will be able to pass it, or if somebody will veto it.

    Hence their insistence on nailing down their member's essential interests now, before they get to the difficult part of the negotiations.

    The whole point about the backstop is that it remains in place until all those tricky negotiations have been concluded.
  • We used to be a nation that would mobilise entire nations to stop the spread of the far right.

    The Battle of Cable Street was a shining example of the UK's long and proud heritage in driving extremist thugs from our streets.

    Now look at us. They operate openly in Parliament Square and even the police do nothing.

    Sad what we're reduced to as a nation.

    What about what the thugs got away with at the battle of Chrisp Street?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    TOPPING said:


    The whole point about the backstop is that it remains in place until all those tricky negotiations have been concluded.
    The point of the backstop is to ensure the UK remains bent over a barrel for As Long As It Takes for the UK to fully align with the EU's every demand.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,600
    DavidL said:

    Quite a good "The long view" on R4 this morning comparing Brexit (there really is no escape) to the travails of the Tories under Balfour trying to deal with tariff reform. Unlike some of the programs where the comparison seems somewhat contrived this worked surprisingly well. Worth a listen despite the B word.

    Couldn't bring myself to watch the film last night but probably will at some point.

    Hague in the Telegraph today makes the case for May's deal well, not least because he shows some clear sympathy with the concerns of the no dealers. Will it have any effect? Not if you read JRM right below him. As in 1905 it is increasingly hard to see the Tory party in its current form surviving this. Given the alternatives available that is somewhat unfortunate.

    Unless Corbyn backs EUref2 and a Remain option it is also hard to see the Labour party surviving in its current form and that still leaves the problem of Labour Leavers
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    What about what the thugs got away with at the battle of Chrisp Street?
    I will have you know that was a revolutionary act.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    edited January 2019
    TOPPING said:


    The whole point about the backstop is that it remains in place until all those tricky negotiations have been concluded.

    Sorry, I misread your post.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    urgh

    image
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795

    We used to be a nation that would mobilise entire nations to stop the spread of the far right.

    The Battle of Cable Street was a shining example of the UK's long and proud heritage in driving extremist thugs from our streets.

    Now look at us. They operate openly in Parliament Square and even the police do nothing.

    Sad what we're reduced to as a nation.

    I agree with that wholeheartedly. but this has to reflect behaviour by everyone. There should be a code of conduct of debate and protest which is drawn up by politicans, people an dpolice so everyone knows what is accpetable and what isn't and that is policed rigorously.
  • We used to be a nation that would mobilise entire nations to stop the spread of the far right.

    The Battle of Cable Street was a shining example of the UK's long and proud heritage in driving extremist thugs from our streets.

    Now look at us. They operate openly in Parliament Square and even the police do nothing.

    Sad what we're reduced to as a nation.

    There is absolutely no difference between what these morons were doing and what the morons from the left have been doing for decades. Both are extremists and both should be treated in the same way.

    It looks to me personally like a line was crossed by the protestors yesterday - that of instilling fear for their safety in their target - just as the same lines have been crossed many times in recent years by other protestors, primarily from the left. That is not a reason to stop the police taking action. It is a reason to call out those now demanding action who were happy enough to stay silent during previous examples because they happened to be on the same side of the political seesaw.

    If we have been in any way reduced as a nation it is because people like you excused such behaviour in the past.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    The point of the backstop is to ensure the UK remains bent over a barrel for As Long As It Takes for the UK to fully align with the EU's every demand.
    As it notes in Appendix YB/2019a/OAB of the WA.
  • This is what happens when people stop punching the far right.

    Ah, incitement to violence. A typical response from the left.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    I wonder if Gauke is aware of the double meaning of unicorn, in this context?
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1082614488522809344
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716

    Ah, incitement to violence. A typical response from the left.
    Since when did @grabcocque represent the left???
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Oh, and a belated Happy New Year to all pb-ers.
  • urgh

    image

    Genuine WTF??? Just when you thought the rag could sink no lower.

  • Since when did @grabcocque represent the left???
    I apologise. I should have said hard left. It is actually what I meant to write and then got distracted for a moment by that Sun headline.
  • I wonder if Gauke is aware of the double meaning of unicorn, in this context?
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1082614488522809344

    I don't know where the cabinet are getting inspiration for all these sexual metaphors for Brexit.
  • This is what happens when people stop punching the far right.

    Like this?

    German far-right politician Frank Magnitz has been beaten up and severely injured in an attack seen by police as politically motivated.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46792556
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Ah, incitement to violence. A typical response from the left.
    I'm not of the left. Classical liberal viewpoint, that the paradox of tolerance is real. The only way to ensure a tolerant society is to be aggressively intolerant of intolerance.

    The reason the far right now operate with impunity is precisely because we stopped punching them.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716


    I apologise. I should have said hard left.

    Lol, no
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795
    There's a fine line between protest and intimidation. These people crossed that line. They deserve to be dealt with, as with many others which do, and often don't.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Like this?

    German far-right politician Frank Magnitz has been beaten up and severely injured in an attack seen by police as politically motivated.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46792556
    Sadly, he'll probably survive.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,504

    There is another issue: the safety of MPs and their staff. We recently had an MP assassinated, and a terrorist attack outside parliament. The guys protesting are nutters, and one might have a knife or other weapon - or someone with evil intent might use them as cover.

    I'd have expected the police to have reacted in a slightly stronger manner than they did. Or at all.
    Isn't the issue that the police in and around Parliament are there for security? Are they in a position to start arresting people for gobbing off at politicians? Or do they have to stay in position to deal with a potential terrorist attack?

    MPs would probably be better to call the police and get a regular Met copper down to sort them out.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    Sandpit said:

    Nicola’s gonna have fun explaining that one!
    Politically biased civil servants.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    urgh

    image

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8144398/who-mp-anna-soubry-remainer-brexit/

    "Who is Anna Soubry, what has she said about Brexit and who’s her partner Neil Davidson?" That's almost as weird, to be honest.

    As is:

    "Anna Mary Soubry is a 62-year-old who was born in Lincoln and brought up in Dunham-on-Trent and Clumber Park in Nottinghamshire.

    She was born on November 7, 1962, in Lincoln."
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,954
    edited January 2019

    urgh

    image

    Extraordinary. From reading the article, there's clearly an attempt at moral equivalence and to portray the bovver boys in an - if not favourable - at least a neutral light.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8144398/who-mp-anna-soubry-remainer-brexit/
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795

    Sadly, he'll probably survive.
    and boom, your moral authority just took a break and is currently enjoying a long holiday in Fiji.
  • x

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8144398/who-mp-anna-soubry-remainer-brexit/

    "Who is Anna Soubry, what has she said about Brexit and who’s her partner Neil Davidson?" That's almost as weird, to be honest.

    As is:

    "Anna Mary Soubry is a 62-year-old who was born in Lincoln and brought up in Dunham-on-Trent and Clumber Park in Nottinghamshire.

    She was born on November 7, 1962, in Lincoln."
    Born '56 so the age is right
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,009
    TOPPING said:


    The whole point about the backstop is that it remains in place until all those tricky negotiations have been concluded.
    You mean until EU has fleeced the idiots and there is nothing left to be taken. It is unbelievable that anyone could have agreed to hand everything to the EU on a plate like that. Outcome will be worst trade deal in history or permanent limbo coughing up shedloads.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,767

    Like this?

    German far-right politician Frank Magnitz has been beaten up and severely injured in an attack seen by police as politically motivated.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46792556

    yup thats a pretty brutal kicking,

    AfD accusing the SPD and Greens in Bremen for inciting the attack

    https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article186713350/Frank-Magnitz-AfD-macht-rot-gruene-Hetze-fuer-Angriff-verantwortlich.html
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    and boom, your moral authority just took a break and is currently enjoying a long holiday in Fiji.
    Looking for Fiji Water Girl, no doubt.
This discussion has been closed.