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We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?0 -
One does wonder when the ultimate Tory confrontation will occur. We're getting people on record saying they will resign the whip if they move in a direction which senior Cabinet Members are endorsing. On the other side I don't think we've seen anyone suggest they will resign the whip if, somehow, the deal was approved, but that is probably just because the DUP would bring down the government at that point so no point in openly breaking ranks, but the deal or something softer (or even revocation) is clearly anathema to a group even larger than those saying they will resign in the event of no deal.dixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.0 -
No worries, if no deal becomes policy I will beat them alldixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:0 -
No Deal does no have to be policy for it to happen by default.Luckyguy1983 said:
Worth it for that fact alone surely?Black_Rook said:0 -
As to the Irish border - anyone who has ever done any legal business in Ireland will tell you that the border still exists.0
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Surely it's unlikely to ever be the governments "policy" but rather it just becomes an inevitability as the clock runs out of time to agree anything else?Black_Rook said:0 -
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
No Deal is not the end of a process but the start of negotiating the Divorce Bill and a Trade Agreement in parallel - something that should have been happening over the last two years and which would have avoided any Irish border problem.0
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All will become clear as we move through Januarykle4 said:
One does wonder when the ultimate Tory confrontation will occur. We're getting people on record saying they will resign the whip if they move in a direction which senior Cabinet Members are endorsing. On the other side I don't think we've seen anyone suggest they will resign the whip if, somehow, the deal was approved, but that is probably just because the DUP would bring down the government at that point so no point in openly breaking ranks, but the deal or something softer (or even revocation) is clearly anathema to a group even larger than those saying they will resign in the event of no deal.dixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.
January 14th to 30th will be one of the most important times in our politics since WW20 -
Something based off counties seems problematic given the vast disparity between them and how they are administered, and how much they might change as areas combine into unitaries and the like (eg there are two unitaries in Wiltshire, do they get 2 senators, or 1 for the county as a whole, vs 3 in Somerset (2 unitaries and a county)?Foxy said:
I would follow a different system for a Senate. While each constituency represented by a single randomly selected juror has appeal, it may well be hard to sell. I would suggest that each county gets to appoint one or two Senators per County or Metropolitan council, to serve until the next CC elections.dixiedean said:
Could be constituted as follows.kle4 said:
A Senate of the Nations/Regions I believe they called it. Was to be part of discussions in a grand constitutional convention I believe, one of Ed M's decentish ideas.Freggles said:
It's been put forward before, Labour alluded to something similar in 2015 manifestoEndillion said:
Mad idea: could we both solve national devolution and House of Lords reform simultaneously by reconstituting the House of Lords to have 25% representation from each nation (either appointed, elected or a combination)?RoyalBlue said:Treating the constituent countries of the U.K. as equivalent for constitutional purposes is a nonsense when England contains 85% of the population. There is no good reason why English votes should be worth much less than those in the other countries.
I think our ‘deep state’ is uniquely relaxed about its own disintegration.
NI 18
Wales 30
Scotland 52
in line with population .
Then 99 for England ie, not a majority .
This gives all areas representation, prevents parachuting in favourites to safe seats, and encourages good people to go into local government. Those appointed would tend to have lots of practical experience of administrative realities.0 -
And Labour of course. Without the Opposition Party it will not get scheduled in parlaiment.SandyRentool said:
It would have a lot more weight if the DUP put their name to it too.chloe said:The Lib Dem’s, SNP and Greens have tabled a VONC in the government. Does this have the same weight?
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A distinction some might cling to, but as there are methods to avoid it however unpalatable to some in the party (and given some Tories' are just as fanatically for remain as some on the other side of the house) it may be a line that does not work for this particular crowd.GIN1138 said:
Surely it's unlikely to ever be the governments "policy" but rather it just becomes an inevitability as the clock runs out of time to agree anything else?Black_Rook said:0 -
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
I see Nick Boles still hasn't said he'd do the honourable thing and fight a byelection if he resigns because he won't support the enactment of the manifesto he was elected on. I doubt any of these others would either, not least because would almost certainly lose.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No worries, if no deal becomes policy I will beat them alldixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:0 -
Please read what I said instead of burbling the establishment line.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?
That we are near full employment yet so few new immigrants are finding work makes the issue especially pertinent.
Now how do immigrants who don't work but use public services help the NHS ?0 -
I don't think you could have called many things as wrong as that! One thing I think isclear is the herculean effort our MPs will go to to avoid decision, clarification and confrontation long past the point of reason.Big_G_NorthWales said:
All will become clear as we move through Januarykle4 said:
One does wonder when the ultimate Tory confrontation will occur. We're getting people on record saying they will resign the whip if they move in a direction which senior Cabinet Members are endorsing. On the other side I don't think we've seen anyone suggest they will resign the whip if, somehow, the deal was approved, but that is probably just because the DUP would bring down the government at that point so no point in openly breaking ranks, but the deal or something softer (or even revocation) is clearly anathema to a group even larger than those saying they will resign in the event of no deal.dixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.
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I doubt that very much. 14th January is when the constitutional crisis begins properly. Currently we're just in the warmup period.Big_G_NorthWales said:
All will become clear as we move through January0 -
Maybe your heroine, Mrs May, should thought about that before she started deporting people and painting immigrants in such a poor light.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?0 -
One assumes until the five minutes or so after the meaningful vote result is announced. Then the wheels begin to turn.kle4 said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.
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I am not saying it should be uncontrolled but it needs to meet the needs of the economyanother_richard said:
Please read what I said instead of burbling the establishment line.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?
That we are near full employment yet so few new immigrants are finding work makes the issue especially pertinent.
Now how do immigrants who don't work but use public services help the NHS ?0 -
The point would likely be moot since if they did that we'd probably have a GE soon either way. And while I think it is a good thing for someone to resign if they cross the floor and may well be more honourable an action than not doing so, given it is not an obligation I don't think it is actually dishonourable not to do so. Plus if it is a matter of resigning the whip or having it taken away, there does not seem to be many cases of people fighting by-elections on that basis.theProle said:
I see Nick Boles still hasn't said he'd do the honourable thing and fight a byelection if he resigns because he won't support the enactment of the manifesto he was elected on. I doubt any of these others would either, not least because would almost certainly lose.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No worries, if no deal becomes policy I will beat them alldixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:0 -
Impossible to say, of course. Under a PR system the Tories (and Labour) would've split into two or three pieces a long time ago and we'd be in a very different place. But we aren't.kle4 said:
One does wonder when the ultimate Tory confrontation will occur. We're getting people on record saying they will resign the whip if they move in a direction which senior Cabinet Members are endorsing. On the other side I don't think we've seen anyone suggest they will resign the whip if, somehow, the deal was approved, but that is probably just because the DUP would bring down the government at that point so no point in openly breaking ranks, but the deal or something softer (or even revocation) is clearly anathema to a group even larger than those saying they will resign in the event of no deal.dixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.
Political incompatibility pulls in one direction. The need to put up a united front against Corbyn and company pulls in the other. Doesn't mean it can't happen, but it influences the shape and the probability of the possible outcomes.
There's also more than one plausible scenario for a potential split. Ultra pro-Europeans hive off to prevent Brexit. The ERG wing rebels and hives off if May U-turns on implementing Brexit. The centre-right either hives off from or forces out the ERG wing, and tries to form a new party by peeling the Blairite flank off Labour. Tory and Labour pro-Europeans and pragmatists join forces and form a National Government to cancel Brexit, splitting both parties. You could make a case for any one of them.0 -
Good to see that Global Britain will be celebrating its Global nature by having lots of white Tory people telling foreigners to Go Home.0
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Which of course is why May has been running scared of it even though it was always going to be lost. That truly was just about her and Tory party management.grabcocque said:
One assumes until the five minutes or so after the meaningful vote result is announced. Then the wheels begin to turn.kle4 said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.0 -
I thought the immigration numbers were pretty stable?Beverley_C said:
Maybe your heroine, Mrs May, should thought about that before she started deporting people and painting immigrants in such a poor light.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?0 -
Eventual possible honours will not bother them I shouldn't think! It might end their political careers in the Tory Party but to some other parties they would be welcome heroes.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
No - this is the end of tempus fugit. They are out of time and votes will be held and positions revealedkle4 said:
I don't think you could have called many things as wrong as that! One thing I think isclear is the herculean effort our MPs will go to to avoid decision, clarification and confrontation long past the point of reason.Big_G_NorthWales said:
All will become clear as we move through Januarykle4 said:
One does wonder when the ultimate Tory confrontation will occur. We're getting people on record saying they will resign the whip if they move in a direction which senior Cabinet Members are endorsing. On the other side I don't think we've seen anyone suggest they will resign the whip if, somehow, the deal was approved, but that is probably just because the DUP would bring down the government at that point so no point in openly breaking ranks, but the deal or something softer (or even revocation) is clearly anathema to a group even larger than those saying they will resign in the event of no deal.dixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.
In a vote on a referendum Corbyn cannot hide0 -
Over 75% of immigrants in the past year are non-EU. If the government want to stop that it could (it could have stopped it years ago). It's not going to be solved by Brexit.another_richard said:
Please read what I said instead of burbling the establishment line.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?
That we are near full employment yet so few new immigrants are finding work makes the issue especially pertinent.
Now how do immigrants who don't work but use public services help the NHS ?0 -
Indeed, but I don't think that is as damaging to him as you might believe. He would just prefer not to go down that route.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No - this is the end of tempus fugit. They are out of time and votes will be held and positions revealedkle4 said:
I don't think you could have called many things as wrong as that! One thing I think isclear is the herculean effort our MPs will go to to avoid decision, clarification and confrontation long past the point of reason.Big_G_NorthWales said:
All will become clear as we move through Januarykle4 said:
One does wonder when the ultimate Tory confrontation will occur. We're getting people on record saying they will resign the whip if they move in a direction which senior Cabinet Members are endorsing. On the other side I don't think we've seen anyone suggest they will resign the whip if, somehow, the deal was approved, but that is probably just because the DUP would bring down the government at that point so no point in openly breaking ranks, but the deal or something softer (or even revocation) is clearly anathema to a group even larger than those saying they will resign in the event of no deal.dixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.
In a vote on a referendum Corbyn cannot hide0 -
Well, yeah. She's been holding out hope for a miracle. Unless Merkel, Macron and Varadkar have one absolutely enormous never-before-seen magic unicorn up their sleeve, it's difficult to see where that miracle is coming from.kle4 said:
Which of course if why May has been running scared of it even though it was always going to be lost. That truly was just about her and Tory party management.grabcocque said:
One assumes until the five minutes or so after the meaningful vote result is announced. Then the wheels begin to turn.kle4 said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.
But the reality is everyone is already acting as if the Deal has already been rejected, including number 10. Which doesn't engender much faith into how likely they think that miracle will be.0 -
Yep...RobD said:
I thought the immigration numbers were pretty stable?Beverley_C said:
Maybe your heroine, Mrs May, should thought about that before she started deporting people and painting immigrants in such a poor light.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/november20180 -
The immigrants we need are leaving. The unskilled variety still make up the bulk of immigration.RobD said:
I thought the immigration numbers were pretty stable?Beverley_C said:
Maybe your heroine, Mrs May, should thought about that before she started deporting people and painting immigrants in such a poor light.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?0 -
Or simply switch parties. As has previously been pointed out, Wollaston has a fighting chance of re-election to her seat as a Liberal Democrat. Ditto Heidi Allen.Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
Indeed.Benpointer said:
Over 75% of immigrants in the past year are non-EU. If the government want to stop that it could (it could have stopped it years ago). It's not going to be solved by Brexit.another_richard said:
Please read what I said instead of burbling the establishment line.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?
That we are near full employment yet so few new immigrants are finding work makes the issue especially pertinent.
Now how do immigrants who don't work but use public services help the NHS ?
That the government's immigration management is a total shambles isn't the fault of the EU or the last Labour government or Jeremy Corbyn or Nick Clegg or whoever.
Its the fault of this government and nobody more so that Theresa May.0 -
I do not see TM as a heroine and it is unnecessary to suggest I doBeverley_C said:
Maybe your heroine, Mrs May, should thought about that before she started deporting people and painting immigrants in such a poor light.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?
I accept the need to control immigration but it needs to be tailored to suit business demands0 -
But, ironically, if they hold it all together for another 3 months, No deal happens by default, and there will be no going back in (at least for a while), all the Tory divisions may actually heal. The Tory party has spent the last 30 years divided over Europe. If we crash out in April, that division is essentially gone - one side will have won, there will be nothing left to fight for. It's probably going to lead to a huge regrouping within the Tory factions - what does JRM have in common with Boris, or Sorbury with Rudd other than a view on the EU? If the EU is effectively off the table, then this may be interesting (obviously if May convenes with Starmer to cancel Brexit or similar, clearly that's going to be the end of the Tory party as we know it - I can't imagine it not splitting down the middle).kle4 said:
One does wonder when the ultimate Tory confrontation will occur. We're getting people on record saying they will resign the whip if they move in a direction which senior Cabinet Members are endorsing. On the other side I don't think we've seen anyone suggest they will resign the whip if, somehow, the deal was approved, but that is probably just because the DUP would bring down the government at that point so no point in openly breaking ranks, but the deal or something softer (or even revocation) is clearly anathema to a group even larger than those saying they will resign in the event of no deal.dixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.0 -
Well... Selection is a two part process. You need to be on the Conservative Party's list of candidates which is centrally controlled and be selected for a particular seat by your local party. I think in Boles' case he might feel if he loses the former for a while it could eventually come back if he retains the later.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
A reverse takeover of the Lib Dems by remainer Tories might give the party some much-needed brand visibility.Black_Rook said:
Or simply switch parties. As has previously been pointed out, Wollaston has a fighting chance of re-election to her seat as a Liberal Democrat. Ditto Heidi Allen.Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:
Ken Clarke for next Lib Dem leader!0 -
The descent into madness continues unabated !
What on earth has happened to the UK.0 -
Really? The ratio of the various types of visa has been pretty static in recent years.Beverley_C said:
The immigrants we need are leaving. The unskilled variety still make up the bulk of immigration.RobD said:
I thought the immigration numbers were pretty stable?Beverley_C said:
Maybe your heroine, Mrs May, should thought about that before she started deporting people and painting immigrants in such a poor light.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?0 -
Absobloominglutely.....this arguing over the future is a feature, not a bug - but many who deplore it seem to prefer the "consensus emerging from smoke filled rooms" way of doing things. As was pointed out earlier, Britain is still the number 1 global soft power country. As for this "Constitutional Crisis" - Belgium says "hold my beer":kle4 said:
Again with this laughing stock stuff, I don't know why it concerns people so much. Periods of intense and divisive politics will lead to plenty for others to make fun of, and every nation gets their turn at being mocked at some point. People make such a big deal of it as though the mere fact of mockery means you should turn aside from a particular position, when it is quite possible what is right for one nation is going to be of amusement to others.nico67 said:The whole thing is becoming absurd . The UK is a laughing stock.
I'm much more concerned about the instability of our politics because of an unwillingness for fanatics to compromise affecting recovery than I am that talk shows overseas get some amusement out of political drama.
https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/10751639275065753620 -
Is it actually as simple as that? I thought there was a rule that someone had to be a member of the LDs for a certain period before they could be selected as a candidate? But perhaps to encourage possible defections that does not apply to sitting politicians, to allow them them cross the floor and then defend that seat as soon as possible whether it is at county or national level.Black_Rook said:
Or simply switch parties. As has previously been pointed out, Wollaston has a fighting chance of re-election to her seat as a Liberal Democrat. Ditto Heidi Allen.Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
I do agree with you on the 14th January - it is time the HOC closed for xmas and give the country a break for a few daysgrabcocque said:
I doubt that very much. 14th January is when the constitutional crisis begins properly. Currently we're just in the warmup period.Big_G_NorthWales said:
All will become clear as we move through January0 -
Probably more chance of honours that way too!Black_Rook said:
Or simply switch parties. As has previously been pointed out, Wollaston has a fighting chance of re-election to her seat as a Liberal Democrat. Ditto Heidi Allen.Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:
(Though tbf I don't think they're bothered about such things)
0 -
I may be way out of whack as I'm not a Conservative, but if I were a member of her local party I'd already regard Wollaston as having gone too far to reselect. Parties need a high degree of loyalty to function and I'd have thought that simply threatening to leave is sufficient to undermine its effectiveness. I think even Boles and Sourbry would struggle to get my vote after what they have said today. Or are Tory activists a lot more mellow and easy going than I would be in their position?Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
Actually it will start when the voting on the amendments takes place and how they effect the actual meaningful vote on the dealgrabcocque said:
One assumes until the five minutes or so after the meaningful vote result is announced. Then the wheels begin to turn.kle4 said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.0 -
Shes in LD sympathetic land. He isn't .Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
-
The central party usually has a lot of discretion over the candidate list.kle4 said:
Is it actually as simple as that? I thought there was a rule that someone had to be a member of the LDs for a certain period before they could be selected as a candidate? But perhaps to encourage possible defections that does not apply to sitting politicians, to allow them them cross the floor and then defend that seat as soon as possible whether it is at county or national level.Black_Rook said:
Or simply switch parties. As has previously been pointed out, Wollaston has a fighting chance of re-election to her seat as a Liberal Democrat. Ditto Heidi Allen.Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:
If an MP is thinking of defecting, they'll usually make sure they get a firm agreement first that the new party will continue to recognise them as an incumbent.
Certainly, for every defection in recent memory that's been the case.
Where it gets awkward is when a constituency party has already selected a PPC. Then you have to have a very difficult conversation with them.0 -
What better credentials for leader of the Liberal Democrats than a mere 48 years as a Conservative MP?grabcocque said:
A reverse takeover of the Lib Dems by remainer Tories might give the party some much-needed brand visibility.Black_Rook said:
Or simply switch parties. As has previously been pointed out, Wollaston has a fighting chance of re-election to her seat as a Liberal Democrat. Ditto Heidi Allen.Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:
Ken Clarke for next Lib Dem leader!
Though of course Clegg used to joke that Clarke was the 6th LD in Cabinet back in the Coalition days.0 -
He most certainly wasn't elected on a manifesto which involved crashing out of the EU in chaos without a deal, so I'm not sure what your point is.theProle said:
I see Nick Boles still hasn't said he'd do the honourable thing and fight a byelection if he resigns because he won't support the enactment of the manifesto he was elected on. I doubt any of these others would either, not least because would almost certainly lose.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No worries, if no deal becomes policy I will beat them alldixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:0 -
Well it can lead to some bad outcomes, but the feeling leading to the division needs to be confronted in order to be resolved, so it should not be avoided, so no, arguing is not a bad thing.CarlottaVance said:0 -
And would lose their seat at the GEBarnesian said:
Eventual possible honours will not bother them I shouldn't think! It might end their political careers in the Tory Party but to some other parties they would be welcome heroes.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
As for honours they are given by governments and governments change. In fact if someone like Wollaston was remotely bothered by the prospect of a Damehood or Peerage it may already be the case her better bet is jumping ship. But I doubt she is bothered. Wollaston is clearly a Conservative. Her problem is she's also clearly a normal person who accidently ended up as an MP via the particular all voter, all postal primary in her seat.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
On the issue of Brexit just as the Tories might need to accept passing a deal might cost them their government, so too should MPs be prepared to lose their seats rather than allow through action or passivity an outcome they believe to be unacceptable. That's not easy, but more should be so willing (though it does mean many of those weeping about no deal should never, ever have triggered A50).Big_G_NorthWales said:
And would lose their seat at the GEBarnesian said:
Eventual possible honours will not bother them I shouldn't think! It might end their political careers in the Tory Party but to some other parties they would be welcome heroes.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:
0 -
Do Tory associations get to reselect? I thought once they had an incumbent, it was pretty hard for them to get rid (although obviously they can threaten to no support).Recidivist said:
I may be way out of whack as I'm not a Conservative, but if I were a member of her local party I'd already regard Wollaston as having gone too far to reselect. Parties need a high degree of loyalty to function and I'd have thought that simply threatening to leave is sufficient to undermine its effectiveness. I think even Boles and Sourbry would struggle to get my vote after what they have said today. Or are Tory activists a lot more mellow and easy going than I would be in their position?Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
It will highlight labour splitskle4 said:
Indeed, but I don't think that is as damaging to him as you might believe. He would just prefer not to go down that route.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No - this is the end of tempus fugit. They are out of time and votes will be held and positions revealedkle4 said:
I don't think you could have called many things as wrong as that! One thing I think isclear is the herculean effort our MPs will go to to avoid decision, clarification and confrontation long past the point of reason.Big_G_NorthWales said:
All will become clear as we move through Januarykle4 said:
One does wonder when the ultimate Tory confrontation will occur. We're getting people on record saying they will resign the whip if they move in a direction which senior Cabinet Members are endorsing. On the other side I don't think we've seen anyone suggest they will resign the whip if, somehow, the deal was approved, but that is probably just because the DUP would bring down the government at that point so no point in openly breaking ranks, but the deal or something softer (or even revocation) is clearly anathema to a group even larger than those saying they will resign in the event of no deal.dixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:
They've put it all off until after Xmas, but how much longer can they keep this up? They not only loathe one another they are increasingly going to be politically incompatible.
In a vote on a referendum Corbyn cannot hide0 -
I don't know. I suspect there will be somebody on here who does though.theProle said:
Do Tory associations get to reselect? I thought once they had an incumbent, it was pretty hard for them to get rid (although obviously they can threaten to no support).Recidivist said:
I may be way out of whack as I'm not a Conservative, but if I were a member of her local party I'd already regard Wollaston as having gone too far to reselect. Parties need a high degree of loyalty to function and I'd have thought that simply threatening to leave is sufficient to undermine its effectiveness. I think even Boles and Sourbry would struggle to get my vote after what they have said today. Or are Tory activists a lot more mellow and easy going than I would be in their position?Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
Maybe they put their country ahead of the Party?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And would lose their seat at the GEBarnesian said:
Eventual possible honours will not bother them I shouldn't think! It might end their political careers in the Tory Party but to some other parties they would be welcome heroes.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
-
FPT...
Splitting the bridge and flyco is done on the QEC for technical and political reasons. It actually has operational disadvantages although these are lessened now that digital comms are so good. First, the carrier needs a lot of comms and sensors which need roof space. The QEC design didn't have the money for, or couldn't rise to the challenge of, a Ford class solution with massive software driven sensor fusion on multiple arrays (AN/SPY-3). So it needs more roof space for the sensors and antennae which the dual islands provide. Second, the separate flyco gives the RAF some turf of their own on the ship without which they would have redoubled their efforts to ruin the project. As it is they have only managed to sabotage it partially by insisting on RAF harmony rules which makes long blue water deployments of the air wing impossible.CarlottaVance said:
I like the split superstructure - makes sense from an operational point of view and stops her looking top heavy - form following function.0 -
I mean, it can and will be argued ad nauseam to what extent May's deal honours the Tory manifesto commitments, but I don't think even the ERG claim that No Deal meets the manifesto promise of an "orderly withdrawal" and a "deep and special partnership" with the EU.Richard_Nabavi said:
He most certainly wasn't elected on a manifesto which involved crashing out of the EU in chaos without a deal, so I'm not sure what your point is.theProle said:
I see Nick Boles still hasn't said he'd do the honourable thing and fight a byelection if he resigns because he won't support the enactment of the manifesto he was elected on. I doubt any of these others would either, not least because would almost certainly lose.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No worries, if no deal becomes policy I will beat them alldixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:0 -
I seem to recall Jack Lopresti faced a deselection battle over his affair with Andrea Jenkyns. Not sure I can recall successful deselection campaigns off the top of my head though.theProle said:
Do Tory associations get to reselect? I thought once they had an incumbent, it was pretty hard for them to get rid (although obviously they can threaten to no support).Recidivist said:
I may be way out of whack as I'm not a Conservative, but if I were a member of her local party I'd already regard Wollaston as having gone too far to reselect. Parties need a high degree of loyalty to function and I'd have thought that simply threatening to leave is sufficient to undermine its effectiveness. I think even Boles and Sourbry would struggle to get my vote after what they have said today. Or are Tory activists a lot more mellow and easy going than I would be in their position?Yellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
I think that's what's known in the trade as "a lie".CarlottaVance said:0 -
Why post this? Do you really believe NI would no longer be part of the UK with the backstop? Of course you don't. What's the point? You don't convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, you just make a few really stupid people reading this threat stupider.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is interesting that the GFA makes absolutely no mention of the border between Northern and Southern Ireland but does affirm explicitly that Northern Ireland should remain part of the UK until a vote by its people to change its status. As such it would appear that it is the backstop rather than any threat of a border that is breaking both the letter and spirit of the GFA.ydoethur said:
I do wonder if the EU is being recklessly complacent in forgetting the Loyalist paramilitary groups and their potential reaction. It wasn't just the IRA that went around killing people.Philip_Thompson said:The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland voted peacefully and democratically to Leave the European Union.
Therefore the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should Leave the European Union.
The EU attempts to annex a part of our country undemocratically are risking the very sectarian violence it is supposed to prevent. As well as being an undemocratic abomination.
The solution is simple. Both sides agreeing a temporary can kicking transition agreement with nothing permanent agreed. Then work together in the spirit of the GFA to create something imaginative.
Not some blunt hammer smashing peoples rights.0 -
Even though I disagree with Wollaston and Boles on this point I am always in favour of MPs standing by their principles rather than their parties. But as you say they do the have to be willing to lose their seats (which is the other part of the Burke Equation) if their electorate - who are the real boss, not the parties - disagree with themkle4 said:
On the issue of Brexit just as the Tories might need to accept passing a deal might cost them their government, so too should MPs be prepared to lose their seats rather than allow through action or passivity an outcome they believe to be unacceptable. That's not easy, but more should be so willing (though it does mean many of those weeping about no deal should never, ever have triggered A50).Big_G_NorthWales said:
And would lose their seat at the GEBarnesian said:
Eventual possible honours will not bother them I shouldn't think! It might end their political careers in the Tory Party but to some other parties they would be welcome heroes.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:0 -
They prefer to think of it as aspirational prediction.grabcocque said:
I think that's what's known in the trade as "a lie".CarlottaVance said:0 -
Why do you so often resort to the word liegrabcocque said:
I think that's what's known in the trade as "a lie".CarlottaVance said:
The article makes sense and is predicated on the DUP accepting whatever TM brings back
It may well be optimistic, but lie - no0 -
Someone there believes in the power of positive thinking. If waverers abandoned ship because defeat looked inevitable, a statement that they are close will surely win them back! You can have a pleasant Christmas confident we are close now, Prime Minister!CarlottaVance said:0 -
Judging by this picture, I think the whip's office has been overdoing it on the mulled cider. That would explain it.kle4 said:
They prefer to think of it as aspirational prediction.grabcocque said:
I think that's what's known in the trade as "a lie".CarlottaVance said:
0 -
Which are not as severe as you think. Members and MPs are very close to united in what they want. Voters is trickier, but again not as bad as with the Tories.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It will highlight labour splits
Now now, we don't want that catching on.Beverley_C said:
Maybe they put their country ahead of the Party?
More seriously, MPs almost certainly always think they are doing that no matter what they do, they just get stuck in the partisan trap of assuming what is good for the party is good for the country automatically.0 -
Yes, Prime Minister, your splendid success in Brussels last week getting the EU to renegotiate the backstop has silenced all of your critics. It's a christmas miracle!kle4 said:
Someone there believes in the power of positive thinking. If waverers abandoned ship because defeat looked inevitable, a statement that they are close will surely win them back! You can have a pleasant Christmas confident we are close now, Prime Minister!CarlottaVance said:0 -
That's what the BBC report says.RobD said:
Probably her massive anti-Corbyn bias.Mortimer said:
You keep saying this without any explanation or evidence. Why do you think she’s a poor journo?Anazina said:
A poor journalist I’m afraid.Omnium said:
She's first class. The best since John Cole.Anazina said:
Nope. She is a mediocre to poor journalist. More spin than scoop, 90% of the time.Gallowgate said:
Except it isn’t because Laura is a fine journalist who has done well to get where she is.Anazina said:BBC News is 100% better when Laura K is away. I flicked over to find her gone. Can she go on holiday more often?
0 -
Compared to AIDS, syphilis is actually rather enjoyable.Richard_Tyndall said:
Compared to Beth Rigby on Sky, Laura K is Richard Dimbleby.Omnium said:
She's first class. The best since John Cole.Anazina said:
Nope. She is a mediocre to poor journalist. More spin than scoop, 90% of the time.Gallowgate said:
Except it isn’t because Laura is a fine journalist who has done well to get where she is.Anazina said:BBC News is 100% better when Laura K is away. I flicked over to find her gone. Can she go on holiday more often?
0 -
Rather interesting piece on how things are getting on in a very young democracy...the island of Sark
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-guernsey-465402020 -
Ooo. That is harsh Robert.rcs1000 said:
Compared to AIDS, syphilis is actually rather enjoyable.Richard_Tyndall said:
Compared to Beth Rigby on Sky, Laura K is Richard Dimbleby.Omnium said:
She's first class. The best since John Cole.Anazina said:
Nope. She is a mediocre to poor journalist. More spin than scoop, 90% of the time.Gallowgate said:
Except it isn’t because Laura is a fine journalist who has done well to get where she is.Anazina said:BBC News is 100% better when Laura K is away. I flicked over to find her gone. Can she go on holiday more often?
0 -
If the whips claim to be within 20 votes, that means they must believe they've somehow managed to convince 117 people, including the ERG and arch-remainers, to a man, to fall in line, even though nothing substantive has change, beyond the PM making an arse of herself in Brussels.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you so often resort to the word liegrabcocque said:
I think that's what's known in the trade as "a lie".CarlottaVance said:
The article makes sense and is predicated on the DUP accepting whatever TM brings back
It may well be optimistic, but lie - no
Now, it's possible they actually believe that, in which case the chief whip is an even bigger moron than he looks, but the simplest explanation is that it's total nonsense. A lie, told for the reason @kle4 said.
Nothing has changed, materially, for anyone to reconsider their opinion. It doesn't look like anything will change, either.0 -
The Guardian is going in an odd direction under Viner. The best stuff is rapidly becoming as good as the NYT. Meanwhile the click bait stuff seems to have abandoned any pretence at quality control. Last week an article refered to the " Canadian president " and this week Merkel as the " German president " and Mitch McConnell as the Senate Minority Leader.CarlottaVance said:
The mood music is the Guardian is going to break even this year but it's taken it's toll.0 -
Sooner or later, any successful online news site ends up as a poor quality tribute act to either Buzzfeed or Breitbart.Yellow_Submarine said:
The Guardian is going in an odd direction under Viner. The best stuff is rapidly becoming as good as the NYT. Meanwhile the click bait stuff seems to have abandoned any pretence at quality control. Last week an article refered to the " Canadian president " and this week Merkel as the " German president " and Mitch McConnell as the Senate Minority Leader.CarlottaVance said:
The mood music is the Guardian is going to break even this year but it's taken it's toll.0 -
It is not what I believe it is what the DUP believe. And they would have at least the basis of a point. You may not like it but it is clear that the backstop puts a separation between the UK and Northern Ireland. Personally as someone generally in favour of a United Ireland I am not that bothered about it hence my support for the Deal. But it is perfectly obvious that creating a separation between the UK and Northern Ireland is far more damaging to the GFA than, for example, an electronic border system along a border which already has plenty of checks on it and already delineates a separation between two tax and legal jurisdictions.edmundintokyo said:
Why post this? Do you really believe NI would no longer be part of the UK with the backstop? Of course you don't. What's the point? You don't convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, you just make a few really stupid people reading this threat stupider.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is interesting that the GFA makes absolutely no mention of the border between Northern and Southern Ireland but does affirm explicitly that Northern Ireland should remain part of the UK until a vote by its people to change its status. As such it would appear that it is the backstop rather than any threat of a border that is breaking both the letter and spirit of the GFA.ydoethur said:
I do wonder if the EU is being recklessly complacent in forgetting the Loyalist paramilitary groups and their potential reaction. It wasn't just the IRA that went around killing people.Philip_Thompson said:The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland voted peacefully and democratically to Leave the European Union.
Therefore the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should Leave the European Union.
The EU attempts to annex a part of our country undemocratically are risking the very sectarian violence it is supposed to prevent. As well as being an undemocratic abomination.
The solution is simple. Both sides agreeing a temporary can kicking transition agreement with nothing permanent agreed. Then work together in the spirit of the GFA to create something imaginative.
Not some blunt hammer smashing peoples rights.
So I post it because it is a fact - and I suppose in the hope it will annoy a few people like you.
0 -
To be fair, if it's a VONC which the government loses, there won't be a need for a by-election.theProle said:
I see Nick Boles still hasn't said he'd do the honourable thing and fight a byelection if he resigns because he won't support the enactment of the manifesto he was elected on. I doubt any of these others would either, not least because would almost certainly lose.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No worries, if no deal becomes policy I will beat them alldixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:0 -
Your comparison was apt. I just felt the urge to amp it up a little.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ooo. That is harsh Robert.rcs1000 said:
Compared to AIDS, syphilis is actually rather enjoyable.Richard_Tyndall said:
Compared to Beth Rigby on Sky, Laura K is Richard Dimbleby.Omnium said:
She's first class. The best since John Cole.Anazina said:
Nope. She is a mediocre to poor journalist. More spin than scoop, 90% of the time.Gallowgate said:
Except it isn’t because Laura is a fine journalist who has done well to get where she is.Anazina said:BBC News is 100% better when Laura K is away. I flicked over to find her gone. Can she go on holiday more often?
Of course, the worst journalist in modern times is Robert Peston, but that's another story.0 -
A further fact is that the DUP supported and campaigned for Brexit, and should reasonably have expected that delivering on Brexit would involve some kind of separation between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Caveat emptor.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is not what I believe it is what the DUP believe. And they would have at least the basis of a point. You may not like it but it is clear that the backstop puts a separation between the UK and Northern Ireland. Personally as someone generally in favour of a United Ireland I am not that bothered about it hence my support for the Deal. But it is perfectly obvious that creating a separation between the UK and Northern Ireland is far more damaging to the GFA than, for example, an electronic border system along a border which already has plenty of checks on it and already delineates a separation between two tax and legal jurisdictions.edmundintokyo said:
Why post this? Do you really believe NI would no longer be part of the UK with the backstop? Of course you don't. What's the point? You don't convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you, you just make a few really stupid people reading this threat stupider.Richard_Tyndall said:
It is interesting that the GFA makes absolutely no mention of the border between Northern and Southern Ireland but does affirm explicitly that Northern Ireland should remain part of the UK until a vote by its people to change its status. As such it would appear that it is the backstop rather than any threat of a border that is breaking both the letter and spirit of the GFA.ydoethur said:
I do wonder if the EU is being recklessly complacent in forgetting the Loyalist paramilitary groups and their potential reaction. It wasn't just the IRA that went around killing people.Philip_Thompson said:The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland voted peacefully and democratically to Leave the European Union.
Therefore the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should Leave the European Union.
The EU attempts to annex a part of our country undemocratically are risking the very sectarian violence it is supposed to prevent. As well as being an undemocratic abomination.
The solution is simple. Both sides agreeing a temporary can kicking transition agreement with nothing permanent agreed. Then work together in the spirit of the GFA to create something imaginative.
Not some blunt hammer smashing peoples rights.
So I post it because it is a fact - and I suppose in the hope it will annoy a few people like you.0 -
Another interpretation of his tweet is that he'd be prepared to force a by election on Brexit?rcs1000 said:
To be fair, if it's a VONC which the government loses, there won't be a need for a by-election.theProle said:
I see Nick Boles still hasn't said he'd do the honourable thing and fight a byelection if he resigns because he won't support the enactment of the manifesto he was elected on. I doubt any of these others would either, not least because would almost certainly lose.Big_G_NorthWales said:
No worries, if no deal becomes policy I will beat them alldixiedean said:
Soames retweeted approvingly So 4.kle4 said:
Good on them for being prepared to go against the party line if it moves in that way, though I do wonder if they were also of the type to have complained of any efforts to make us prepared so we were not 'woefully unprepared'.Black_Rook said:0 -
She gets things wrong though in a way not to be expected of a senior reporter. The day after the 2017 election she reported that Theresa May was going to the Palace to 'seek permission to form a minority Government'. That showed pure ignorance of how our system works. PMs are not re-appointed following a General Election - they simply continue in office or resign!Omnium said:
Personally I think only one of your list is in LK's league. That'd be John Simpson. He is though retired I think.Anazina said:
The list is too long to even properly begin here. Michael Crick, Jon Pienaar, John Simpson, Polly Toynbee, Emily Maitlis - do I really need to continue?Omnium said:
You said that, and I disagreed. I still disagree. Perhaps you'd tell us who is a good journalist in comparison?Anazina said:
A poor journalist I’m afraid.Omnium said:
She's first class. The best since John Cole.Anazina said:
Nope. She is a mediocre to poor journalist. More spin than scoop, 90% of the time.Gallowgate said:
Except it isn’t because Laura is a fine journalist who has done well to get where she is.Anazina said:BBC News is 100% better when Laura K is away. I flicked over to find her gone. Can she go on holiday more often?
I rate LK above all of them anyway.
John Cole, as I said, would be my yardstick. I rate her with him and the likes of James Cameron.
LK - I view her as simply outstanding.0 -
I was playing with some numbers a few days ago, and was looking at economic activity rates for newly arrived non-EU migrants* (i.e. the number that were in work). They peaked in about 1995-96, got worse in a straight line from 1997 to about 2003. They then flat-lined until 2009, before a slight improvement through to 2012. They have then got worse and worse and worse.another_richard said:
Indeed.Benpointer said:
Over 75% of immigrants in the past year are non-EU. If the government want to stop that it could (it could have stopped it years ago). It's not going to be solved by Brexit.another_richard said:
Please read what I said instead of burbling the establishment line.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?
That we are near full employment yet so few new immigrants are finding work makes the issue especially pertinent.
Now how do immigrants who don't work but use public services help the NHS ?
That the government's immigration management is a total shambles isn't the fault of the EU or the last Labour government or Jeremy Corbyn or Nick Clegg or whoever.
Its the fault of this government and nobody more so that Theresa May.
That's not a great achievement for... for.. what's their name???
* There's a proviso here: they assume that all non-EU migrants that started in work stayed in work, and those who started out of work stayed out of work. This clearly isn't true, but there isn't enough granularity to see exactly who was working. And I suspect my numbers are broadly correct.0 -
OK, let me rephrase. Any chance we could ask you to refrain from writing total bullshit, that you know to be total bullshit? It would be nice to get a bit more signal and a bit less noise.Richard_Tyndall said:
So I post it because it is a fact - and I suppose in the hope it will annoy a few people like you.0 -
I must admit that I have a sneaking admiration for Ms Wollaston. Not because I share her views, but because she seems like a genuine person unconcerned with party mechanisms, choosing to do what she thinks is best for her constituents.Yellow_Submarine said:
As for honours they are given by governments and governments change. In fact if someone like Wollaston was remotely bothered by the prospect of a Damehood or Peerage it may already be the case her better bet is jumping ship. But I doubt she is bothered. Wollaston is clearly a Conservative. Her problem is she's also clearly a normal person who accidently ended up as an MP via the particular all voter, all postal primary in her seat.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If any vote against the whip in a vnoc they are deselected on the spot ending their careers and eventual possible honoursYellow_Submarine said:
Wollaston goes further in that tweet than Boles. She refers to leaving the Conservative Party while he onky the Conservative Whip in the Commons. I suspect that's down to their respective relations with tbeir local parties. I think his will back him and she knows if she goes down that route there is no way back and she'll need to stand again as an Independent.Black_Rook said:
That she comes to the wrong conclusions from time to time is of little concern to me, relative to the genuineness of her convictions.0 -
Just recall the insults and the clamour a few days ago for Tory MPs who had had the temerity to organise to challenge May's leadership to be thrown out of the party. Yet now, some of the supposed loyalists who were throwing the mud are showing that they are anything but.Black_Rook said:0 -
Especially given that we effectively have full employment and do have record numbers of job vacancies.rcs1000 said:
I was playing with some numbers a few days ago, and was looking at economic activity rates for newly arrived non-EU migrants* (i.e. the number that were in work). They peaked in about 1995-96, got worse in a straight line from 1997 to about 2003. They then flat-lined until 2009, before a slight improvement through to 2012. They have then got worse and worse and worse.another_richard said:
Indeed.Benpointer said:
Over 75% of immigrants in the past year are non-EU. If the government want to stop that it could (it could have stopped it years ago). It's not going to be solved by Brexit.another_richard said:
Please read what I said instead of burbling the establishment line.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We are nearly at full employment and the NHS, care and hospitality sector need immigration to functionanother_richard said:
The latest ONS data shows over 300k immigrants during the last year while also showing that the number of immigrants in work has fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This is one area TM and I are not on the same page along with the tens of thousands pledge. In any successful economy we need immigration and making it difficult is anti businessYellow_Submarine said:
It sounds like a dystopian Love Actually where Huge Grant goes to Heathrow and blocks enterance to the immigrant half of couples in time for Christmas.Gallowgate said:
However, when and if we arrive at brexit, the rules on immigration will follow TM handing over
How does that sort of immigration make the economy successful ?
That we are near full employment yet so few new immigrants are finding work makes the issue especially pertinent.
Now how do immigrants who don't work but use public services help the NHS ?
That the government's immigration management is a total shambles isn't the fault of the EU or the last Labour government or Jeremy Corbyn or Nick Clegg or whoever.
Its the fault of this government and nobody more so that Theresa May.
That's not a great achievement for... for.. what's their name???
* There's a proviso here: they assume that all non-EU migrants that started in work stayed in work, and those who started out of work stayed out of work. This clearly isn't true, but there isn't enough granularity to see exactly who was working. And I suspect my numbers are broadly correct.0 -
question: if by some miracle TM manages to get approval for her WA from commons, then the DUP decide to pull plug and government falls due to VONC , could a successor PM choose to renege on the WA if they feel the EU is not acting in good faith with the FTA negotiations and declare no deal and repeal WA?0
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They'd need to get it through Parliament. Given that'd be a few weeks before the withdrawal date, that'd be asking MPs basically to vote for no-deal ........ no chance.kjohnw said:question: if by some miracle TM manages to get approval for her WA from commons, then the DUP decide to pull plug and government falls due to VONC , could a successor PM choose to renege on the WA if they feel the EU is not acting in good faith with the FTA negotiations and declare no deal and repeal WA?
0 -
is there any circumstance now whereby No Deal can still occur since ECJ verdict and numbers in commons against no deal, and if not, why so much talk of it and spending of serious taxpayers money preparing for something that is no longer possible?0
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Surely Ken Clarke is another. He would never support No Deal. And God bless him.Wulfrun_Phil said:
Just recall the insults and the clamour a few days ago for Tory MPs who had had the temerity to organise to challenge May's leadership to be thrown out of the party. Yet now, some of the supposed loyalists who were throwing the mud are showing that they are anything but.Black_Rook said:0 -
kjohnw said:
is there any circumstance now whereby No Deal can still occur since ECJ verdict and numbers in commons against no deal, and if not, why so much talk of it and spending of serious taxpayers money preparing for something that is no longer possible?
It happens automatically on the 29th March, unless the govt revokes Brexit, or the deal is passed, or we get an extension - the latter probably only acceptable if we have a referendum planned.
It's far from impossible, maybe a 1 in 4 shot.
0 -
Broxtowe's Tory association chair started to survey members on whether they'd like to replace Anna Soubry. She complained, as did others, and he backed down. The constituency is curious in that it's had zealously pro-European MPs (AS, me, Jim Lester) for over 40 years, even though it voted Leave. There are a lot of voters there who have never cared much one way or the other, and who amiably tolerate our Euro-hobby. Obviously it's a bit more tense at the moment.theProle said:
Do Tory associations get to reselect? I thought once they had an incumbent, it was pretty hard for them to get rid (although obviously they can threaten to no support).0 -
cant see the government revoking A50, cant see TM deal passing, cant see us getting extension as don't see government agreeing to second referendum it would be political suicide for tories, so no deal it is thenAndrew said:kjohnw said:is there any circumstance now whereby No Deal can still occur since ECJ verdict and numbers in commons against no deal, and if not, why so much talk of it and spending of serious taxpayers money preparing for something that is no longer possible?
It happens automatically on the 29th March, unless the govt revokes Brexit, or the deal is passed, or we get an extension - the latter probably only acceptable if we have a referendum planned.
It's unlikely, but far from impossible.0 -
In layman terms?Dura_Ace said:FPT...
RAF harmony rules which makes long blue water deployments of the air wing impossible.CarlottaVance said:
I like the split superstructure - makes sense from an operational point of view and stops her looking top heavy - form following function.0
This discussion has been closed.