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I do not support Mrs May's Deal. It is worse than Remaining IMO.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thanks. It seems to be what most of us except very strong supporters of May feel.Beverley_C said:FPT:
Yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Interested to get your thoughts. As a vocal critic of May's handling of Brexit but also the ERG, do you think we should have spent the last two years (and should now spend what time is available) in preparing for no deal, not as a desirable outcome, but as a real risk?Beverley_C said:
Indeed. I agree with Tusk. There appears to be nothing further to talk about. Mrs May needs to stay here and sort out her Brexit.grabcocque said:Tusk says the January summit May wants probably won't happen.
`‘we are ready to reconfirm our assurances and good will and good faith when it comes to the backstop - I have no mandate to organise any further negotiations`
twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073605119533551621
That would appear to be that.
It is the default position. The risk is very real.0 -
Depends who he’s up against. He’ll walk it against May. He started 20% behind in the polls last time and ended up taking seats. If May resigns, the Tories have a slim chance depending on who they pick - and provided they don’t split. A split seems very likely at the moment.AndyJS said:
I don't think he'll walk it by any stretch of the imagination. More like scrape together a rainbow coalition.AmpfieldAndy said:Corbyn will walk an election against May and if the election is called by virtue of a VNOC, the Tories will be saddled with her. Tories fluffed their opportunity to get rid of her and she clearly doesn’t want to go. Anyone who calls a snap election, loses a 20% lead in the polls and loses her majority because they are such awful campaigners and produce a manifesto that is excruciatingly awful is not not going to stop Corbyn this time, not against the backdrop of a sell out Brexit that she can’t get through Parliament, numerous humiliations at the hands of the EU and total absence of a domestic policy agenda.
The only hope for the Tories is if May puts the national interest first for once, and resigns paving the way for a new leader (other than Boris).0 -
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857/photo/1AmpfieldAndy said:
Depends who he’s up against. He’ll walk it against May. He started 20% behind in the polls last time and ended up taking seats. If May resigns, the Tories have a slim chance depending on who they pick - and provided they don’t split. A split seems very likely at the moment.AndyJS said:
I don't think he'll walk it by any stretch of the imagination. More like scrape together a rainbow coalition.AmpfieldAndy said:Corbyn will walk an election against May and if the election is called by virtue of a VNOC, the Tories will be saddled with her. Tories fluffed their opportunity to get rid of her and she clearly doesn’t want to go. Anyone who calls a snap election, loses a 20% lead in the polls and loses her majority because they are such awful campaigners and produce a manifesto that is excruciatingly awful is not not going to stop Corbyn this time, not against the backdrop of a sell out Brexit that she can’t get through Parliament, numerous humiliations at the hands of the EU and total absence of a domestic policy agenda.
The only hope for the Tories is if May puts the national interest first for once, and resigns paving the way for a new leader (other than Boris).-1 -
Is CCHQ loyal to May, or to Conservative 'principles"?IanB2 said:
If they commit - as is being rumoured - to not supporting the government in any forthcoming votes including confidence ones - then I don't see how the party could possibly not throw them out?The_Taxman said:
If the Fundamentalists take over the Conservative Party it will split, no question about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If ERG take over my party would I be welcomed in the Lib Dems do you thinkIanB2 said:
Good on you for at least considering it!Big_G_NorthWales said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I nominate Big G.grabcocque said:
.Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not trying to convince anyone, I thought the consensus of opinion was that no deal had to be included for the ref to appear legitimate. If it is envisaged as simply a my deal or remain referendum then imo it's even less likely to happen.grabcocque said:
As I keep saying, it's not us you have to convince. There's a triple lock on a referendum question.Luckyguy1983 said:If we have a people's vote, and no deal is an option, it won't be panic no deal anymore, it will be take as long as you like no deal. Are people's vote fans ok with that?
1) Approved by Parliament
2) Meets the electoral commission's guidelines
3) Article 50 extension granted unanimously by the Council
"No Deal" fails all three.
Who in their right mind would want to lead the "deal" campaign?
The ERG is economic armageddon and an image of the UK almost based on our colonial days long gone.
Remain betrays the referendum
So all in all Deal for me but if not remain
And tonight TM is laughing and having fun in her constitiency at a social gathering. This woman has type 1 diabetes (I have type 2) and her stamina is medically defying all logic
It will hang on whether the ultras really mean it when they say they would rather remain than back the deal. If they do, Remain will walk it. If they don't, there might be a contest.
I noticed that IDS voted against TM the other day after claiming a few weeks ago he would always be loyal to a Conservative leader.
Even the senior Brexiteers, who have held Cabinet positions are acting in an irrational and corrosive manner toward the Conservative Party. They have turned into fundamentalists and are happy to blow up their own Government, the economy and Party to further their anti-European crusade.0 -
Na, it at least gets us on the way out.Beverley_C said:
I do not support Mrs May's Deal. It is worse than Remaining IMO.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thanks. It seems to be what most of us except very strong supporters of May feel.Beverley_C said:FPT:
Yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Interested to get your thoughts. As a vocal critic of May's handling of Brexit but also the ERG, do you think we should have spent the last two years (and should now spend what time is available) in preparing for no deal, not as a desirable outcome, but as a real risk?Beverley_C said:
Indeed. I agree with Tusk. There appears to be nothing further to talk about. Mrs May needs to stay here and sort out her Brexit.grabcocque said:Tusk says the January summit May wants probably won't happen.
`‘we are ready to reconfirm our assurances and good will and good faith when it comes to the backstop - I have no mandate to organise any further negotiations`
twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073605119533551621
That would appear to be that.
It is the default position. The risk is very real.
0 -
A group talking of voting against the party in a vnoc is unacceptablenotme said:
Come on your are hyperboling a little there. The ERG traditional right wing in the Conservative Party tradition of right wing. They want to leave the EU at any and all costs, that obsession is what separates them from the "what is right is what works" tradition of the Conservatives.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I never thought I would see the day my party were under threat from an ultra right wing group and they do not represent me at all. I hope TM can navigate the party through this crisis but if ERG take over I may offer myself to the Lib Dems and as I am only a few months older than Vince, I think, even then, I could do a better job of leading them to electoral success !!!!!!!RobD said:
Agent G: your mission, if you choose to accept it.....Big_G_NorthWales said:
It may come to pass if the ultras have anything to do with itIanB2 said:
Judging from your posts here, I'd say unreservedly.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If ERG take over my party would I be welcomed in the Lib Dems do you thinkIanB2 said:
Good on you for at least considering it!Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is very nice of you and I would if I could. Coming from a business background the WDA isLuckyguy1983 said:
I nominate Big G.grabcocque said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not trying to convincegrabcocque said:
As I keep sayinge.
Who in their right mind would want to lead the "deal" campaign?
The ERG is economic armageddon and an image of the UK almost based on our colonial days long gone.
Remain betrays the referendum
So all in all Deal for me but if not remain
Interesting tonight Peston reports TM has had a disaster when if he had been listening, and was a honest journalist, he would have reported the EU launched a broadside on the factions in
And tonight TM is laughing and having fun in her constitiency at a social gathering. This woman has type 1 diabetes (I have type 2) and her stamina is medically defying all logic
It will hang on whether the ultras really mean it when they say they would rather remain than back the deal. If they do, Remain will walk it. If they don't, there might be a contest.
They're not my cup of tea and i think their obsessiveness is generally destructive, but ultra right wing (with the historical connotations) is really not an accurate description.0 -
On that basis the anti-EU nutjobs would be long gone...ralphmalph said:
Why have Soubry, Greive, Morgan, Allen, et al not been kicked out, they have voted against the Govt multiple times?IanB2 said:
If they commit - as is being rumoured - to not supporting the government in any forthcoming votes including confidence ones - then I don't see how the party could possibly not throw them out?The_Taxman said:
If the Fundamentalists take over the Conservative Party it will split, no question about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If ERG take over my party would I be welcomed in the Lib Dems do you thinkIanB2 said:
Good on you for at least considering it!Big_G_NorthWales said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I nominate Big G.grabcocque said:
.Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not trying to convince anyone, I thought the consensus of opinion was that no deal had to be included for the ref to appear legitimate. If it is envisaged as simply a my deal or remain referendum then imo it's even less likely to happen.grabcocque said:
As I keep saying, it's not us you have to convince. There's a triple lock on a referendum question.Luckyguy1983 said:If we have a people's vote, and no deal is an option, it won't be panic no deal anymore, it will be take as long as you like no deal. Are people's vote fans ok with that?
1) Approved by Parliament
2) Meets the electoral commission's guidelines
3) Article 50 extension granted unanimously by the Council
"No Deal" fails all three.
Who in their right mind would want to lead the "deal" campaign?
The ERG is economic armageddon and an image of the UK almost based on our colonial days long gone.
Remain betrays the referendum
And tonight TM is laughing and having fun in her constitiency at a social gathering. This woman has type 1 diabetes (I have type 2) and her stamina is medically defying all logic
It will hang on whether the ultras really mean it when they say they would rather remain than back the deal. If they do, Remain will walk it. If they don't, there might be a contest.
I noticed that IDS voted against TM the other day after claiming a few weeks ago he would always be loyal to a Conservative leader.
Even the senior Brexiteers, who have held Cabinet positions are acting in an irrational and corrosive manner toward the Conservative Party. They have turned into fundamentalists and are happy to blow up their own Government, the economy and Party to further their anti-European crusade.0 -
So you think the pro-EU nutjobs should be allowed to defy their party but the anti-EU nutjobs should be expelled for it. What about the just plain old fashioned nutjobs like Corbyn who made a career out of defying his party?IanB2 said:
On that basis the anti-EU nutjobs would be long gone...0 -
Absolutely. But that doesnt justify the tag.Big_G_NorthWales said:
A group talking of voting against the party in a vnoc is unacceptablenotme said:
Come on your are hyperboling a little there. The ERG traditional right wing in the Conservative Party tradition of right wing. They want to leave the EU at any and all costs, that obsession is what separates them from the "what is right is what works" tradition of the Conservatives.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I never thought I would see the day my party were under threat from an ultra right wing group and they do not represent me at all. I hope TM can navigate the party through this crisis but if ERG take over I may offer myself to the Lib Dems and as I am only a few months older than Vince, I think, even then, I could do a better job of leading them to electoral success !!!!!!!RobD said:
Agent G: your mission, if you choose to accept it.....Big_G_NorthWales said:
It may come to pass if the ultras have anything to do with itIanB2 said:
Judging from your posts here, I'd say unreservedly.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If ERG take over my party would I be welcomed in the Lib Dems do you thinkIanB2 said:
Good on you for at least considering it!Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is very nice of you and I would if I could. Coming from a business background the WDA isLuckyguy1983 said:
I nominate Big G.grabcocque said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not trying to convincegrabcocque said:
As I keep sayinge.
Who in their right mind would want to lead the "deal" campaign?
The ERG is economic armageddon and an image of the UK almost based on our colonial days long gone.
Remain betrays the referendum
So all in all Deal for me but if not remain
Interesting tonight Peston reports TM has had a disaster when if he had been listening, and was a honest journalist, he would have reported the EU launched a broadside on the factions in
And tonight TM is laughing and having fun in her constitiency at a social gathering. This woman has type 1 diabetes (I have type 2) and her stamina is medically defying all logic
It will hang on whether the ultras really mean it when they say they would rather remain than back the deal. If they do, Remain will walk it. If they don't, there might be a contest.
They're not my cup of tea and i think their obsessiveness is generally destructive, but ultra right wing (with the historical connotations) is really not an accurate description.0 -
In the short term, it is worse than remaining.Beverley_C said:
I do not support Mrs May's Deal. It is worse than Remaining IMO.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thanks. It seems to be what most of us except very strong supporters of May feel.Beverley_C said:FPT:
Yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Interested to get your thoughts. As a vocal critic of May's handling of Brexit but also the ERG, do you think we should have spent the last two years (and should now spend what time is available) in preparing for no deal, not as a desirable outcome, but as a real risk?Beverley_C said:
Indeed. I agree with Tusk. There appears to be nothing further to talk about. Mrs May needs to stay here and sort out her Brexit.grabcocque said:Tusk says the January summit May wants probably won't happen.
`‘we are ready to reconfirm our assurances and good will and good faith when it comes to the backstop - I have no mandate to organise any further negotiations`
twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073605119533551621
That would appear to be that.
It is the default position. The risk is very real.
However it solves nothing, especially in the medium- and long-terms. The Eurosceptics will feel that they've been ignored - and they will have been - and the consequences of that for politics and society could be highly non-optimal.
Brexit needs a resolution, a result where the majority can dust our hands and say: "Thank fu*k that's over, let's get on with the important things." Then, when the stinking winnets of UKIP and the ERG start screeching, we can say: "It's over and done with. Shut up."
Just remaining - either without a referendum, or with a referendum which does not have options that cover most of the scenarios - will not be a settled resolution. It will answer nothing.0 -
Given that you feel any sort of Brexit is worse than Remaining that is hardly surprising news.Beverley_C said:
I do not support Mrs May's Deal. It is worse than Remaining IMO.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thanks. It seems to be what most of us except very strong supporters of May feel.Beverley_C said:FPT:
Yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Interested to get your thoughts. As a vocal critic of May's handling of Brexit but also the ERG, do you think we should have spent the last two years (and should now spend what time is available) in preparing for no deal, not as a desirable outcome, but as a real risk?Beverley_C said:
Indeed. I agree with Tusk. There appears to be nothing further to talk about. Mrs May needs to stay here and sort out her Brexit.grabcocque said:Tusk says the January summit May wants probably won't happen.
`‘we are ready to reconfirm our assurances and good will and good faith when it comes to the backstop - I have no mandate to organise any further negotiations`
twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073605119533551621
That would appear to be that.
It is the default position. The risk is very real.0 -
0
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Personally I welcome MPs, from whatever party, who think for themselves and don't always do what they are told. But I don't see how any party could put up with the (possibly) threatened "strike" by the ERGers? Nor does it make any sense for leavers to be calling out Soubry et al, when the leavers themselves have the longest track record of disloyalty.Richard_Tyndall said:
So you think the pro-EU nutjobs should be allowed to defy their party but the anti-EU nutjobs should be expelled for it. What about the just plain old fashioned nutjobs like Corbyn who made a career out of defying his party?IanB2 said:
On that basis the anti-EU nutjobs would be long gone...0 -
As I said on the last thread, the current YouGov shows remarkable unpopularity for everyone and everything - May, Corbyn and every political party. Labour scrapes to the top with 30% saying they like them.
If that persists to the election, I think that differential turnout will decide it - an awful lot of people will jusat roll their eyes and stay at home. It's there that Corbyn has an edge, because around 25% of the electorate are really enthusiastic about him. It's quite difficult to find people who think May is really good - plenty of sympathy, but very little actual enthusiastic support.0 -
I am an official moderate conservative
I have received a christmas card from a conservative brexiteer mp and one from a conservative remainer mp, and both are appreciated
0 -
None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.JosiasJessop said:
In the short term, it is worse than remaining.Beverley_C said:
I do not support Mrs May's Deal. It is worse than Remaining IMO.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thanks. It seems to be what most of us except very strong supporters of May feel.Beverley_C said:FPT:
Yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Interested to get your thoughts. As a vocal critic of May's handling of Brexit but also the ERG, do you think we should have spent the last two years (and should now spend what time is available) in preparing for no deal, not as a desirable outcome, but as a real risk?Beverley_C said:
Indeed. I agree with Tusk. There appears to be nothing further to talk about. Mrs May needs to stay here and sort out her Brexit.grabcocque said:Tusk says the January summit May wants probably won't happen.
`‘we are ready to reconfirm our assurances and good will and good faith when it comes to the backstop - I have no mandate to organise any further negotiations`
twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073605119533551621
That would appear to be that.
It is the default position. The risk is very real.
However it solves nothing, especially in the medium- and long-terms. The Eurosceptics will feel that they've been ignored - and they will have been - and the consequences of that for politics and society could be highly non-optimal.
Brexit needs a resolution, a result where the majority can dust our hands and say: "Thank fu*k that's over, let's get on with the important things." Then, when the stinking winnets of UKIP and the ERG start screeching, we can say: "It's over and done with. Shut up."
Just remaining - either without a referendum, or with a referendum which does not have options that cover most of the scenarios - will not be a settled resolution. It will answer nothing.0 -
Voting against the party in normal votes has never been a problem - see, e.g., J Corbyn.IanB2 said:
On that basis the anti-EU nutjobs would be long gone...ralphmalph said:
Why have Soubry, Greive, Morgan, Allen, et al not been kicked out, they have voted against the Govt multiple times?IanB2 said:
If they commit - as is being rumoured - to not supporting the government in any forthcoming votes including confidence ones - then I don't see how the party could possibly not throw them out?The_Taxman said:
If the Fundamentalists take over the Conservative Party it will split, no question about it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If ERG take over my party would I be welcomed in the Lib Dems do you thinkIanB2 said:
Good on you for at least considering it!Big_G_NorthWales said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I nominate Big G.grabcocque said:
.Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not trying to convince anyone, I thought the consensus of opinion was that no deal had to be included for the ref to appear legitimate. If it is envisaged as simply a my deal or remain referendum then imo it's even less likely to happen.grabcocque said:
As I keep saying, it's not us you have to convince. There's a triple lock on a referendum question.
1) Approved by Parliament
2) Meets the electoral commission's guidelines
3) Article 50 extension granted unanimously by the Council
"No Deal" fails all three.
Who in their right mind would want to lead the "deal" campaign?
The ERG is economic armageddon and an image of the UK almost based on our colonial days long gone.
Remain betrays the referendum
And tonight TM is laughing and having fun in her constitiency at a social gathering. This woman has type 1 diabetes (I have type 2) and her stamina is medically defying all logic
It will hang on whether the ultras really mean it when they say they would rather remain than back the deal. If they do, Remain will walk it. If they don't, there might be a contest.
I noticed that IDS voted against TM the other day after claiming a few weeks ago he would always be loyal to a Conservative leader.
Even the senior Brexiteers, who have held Cabinet positions are acting in an irrational and corrosive manner toward the Conservative Party. They have turned into fundamentalists and are happy to blow up their own Government, the economy and Party to further their anti-European crusade.0 -
In the medium to long term, young people who have grown up with the EU and like it will become the majority.JosiasJessop said:
In the short term, it is worse than remaining.Beverley_C said:
I do not support Mrs May's Deal. It is worse than Remaining IMO.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thanks. It seems to be what most of us except very strong supporters of May feel.Beverley_C said:FPT:
Yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Interested to get your thoughts. As a vocal critic of May's handling of Brexit but also the ERG, do you think we should have spent the last two years (and should now spend what time is available) in preparing for no deal, not as a desirable outcome, but as a real risk?Beverley_C said:
Indeed. I agree with Tusk. There appears to be nothing further to talk about. Mrs May needs to stay here and sort out her Brexit.grabcocque said:Tusk says the January summit May wants probably won't happen.
`‘we are ready to reconfirm our assurances and good will and good faith when it comes to the backstop - I have no mandate to organise any further negotiations`
twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073605119533551621
That would appear to be that.
It is the default position. The risk is very real.
However it solves nothing, especially in the medium- and long-terms. The Eurosceptics will feel that they've been ignored - and they will have been - and the consequences of that for politics and society could be highly non-optimal.
Brexit needs a resolution, a result where the majority can dust our hands and say: "Thank fu*k that's over, let's get on with the important things." Then, when the stinking winnets of UKIP and the ERG start screeching, we can say: "It's over and done with. Shut up."
Just remaining - either without a referendum, or with a referendum which does not have options that cover most of the scenarios - will not be a settled resolution. It will answer nothing.0 -
This is ultimately of no use if a similar proportion of the electorate finds him so repellent that they turn out to veto him.NickPalmer said:As I said on the last thread, the current YouGov shows remarkable unpopularity for everyone and everything - May, Corbyn and every political party. Labour scrapes to the top with 30% saying they like them.
If that persists to the election, I think that differential turnout will decide it - an awful lot of people will jusat roll their eyes and stay at home. It's there that Corbyn has an edge, because around 25% of the electorate are really enthusiastic about him. It's quite difficult to find people who think May is really good - plenty of sympathy, but very little actual enthusiastic support.
After what happened in 2017, I reckon there's almost nothing about the next election that can be safely assumed (except that the SNP will do well again,) and we may well be as clueless about the outcome at 9:59pm on election night as we are right now.0 -
Tough. We wont be entering any time soon unless they offer a deal substantially better then the pisspoor one we currently have.logical_song said:
In the medium to long term, young people who have grown up with the EU and like it will become the majority.JosiasJessop said:
In the short term, it is worse than remaining.Beverley_C said:
I do not support Mrs May's Deal. It is worse than Remaining IMO.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thanks. It seems to be what most of us except very strong supporters of May feel.Beverley_C said:FPT:
Yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Interested to get your thoughts. As a vocal critic of May's handling of Brexit but also the ERG, do you think we should have spent the last two years (and should now spend what time is available) in preparing for no deal, not as a desirable outcome, but as a real risk?Beverley_C said:
Indeed. I agree with Tusk. There appears to be nothing further to talk about. Mrs May needs to stay here and sort out her Brexit.grabcocque said:Tusk says the January summit May wants probably won't happen.
`‘we are ready to reconfirm our assurances and good will and good faith when it comes to the backstop - I have no mandate to organise any further negotiations`
twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073605119533551621
That would appear to be that.
It is the default position. The risk is very real.
However it solves nothing, especially in the medium- and long-terms. The Eurosceptics will feel that they've been ignored - and they will have been - and the consequences of that for politics and society could be highly non-optimal.
Brexit needs a resolution, a result where the majority can dust our hands and say: "Thank fu*k that's over, let's get on with the important things." Then, when the stinking winnets of UKIP and the ERG start screeching, we can say: "It's over and done with. Shut up."
Just remaining - either without a referendum, or with a referendum which does not have options that cover most of the scenarios - will not be a settled resolution. It will answer nothing.0 -
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.0 -
But it was the ERG mob who were being portrayed as being the ones who should be expelled for voting against the party. I was just agreeing that Soubry et al are just as guilty.IanB2 said:
Personally I welcome MPs, from whatever party, who think for themselves and don't always do what they are told. But I don't see how any party could put up with the (possibly) threatened "strike" by the ERGers? Nor does it make any sense for leavers to be calling out Soubry et al, when the leavers themselves have the longest track record of disloyalty.Richard_Tyndall said:
So you think the pro-EU nutjobs should be allowed to defy their party but the anti-EU nutjobs should be expelled for it. What about the just plain old fashioned nutjobs like Corbyn who made a career out of defying his party?IanB2 said:
On that basis the anti-EU nutjobs would be long gone...
Edit: For the record as I have said before, I don't think anyone should be expelled from any party for voting with their conscience. Indeed I object to the whole principle of MPs being whipped to follow a specific party line.0 -
But confused...just seen Cohen interview and he open with he has his freedom. I thought he got sent down for 3 years? Or was it all suspended?0
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Absolutely. And it rather proves that they were never Conservatives in the first place.Big_G_NorthWales said:
A group talking of voting against the party in a vnoc is unacceptablenotme said:
Come on your are hyperboling a little there. The ERG traditional right wing in the Conservative Party tradition of right wing. They want to leave the EU at any and all costs, that obsession is what separates them from the "what is right is what works" tradition of the Conservatives.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I never thought I would see the day my party were under threat from an ultra right wing group and they do not represent me at all. I hope TM can navigate the party through this crisis but if ERG take over I may offer myself to the Lib Dems and as I am only a few months older than Vince, I think, even then, I could do a better job of leading them to electoral success !!!!!!!RobD said:
Agent G: your mission, if you choose to accept it.....Big_G_NorthWales said:
It may come to pass if the ultras have anything to do with itIanB2 said:
Judging from your posts here, I'd say unreservedly.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If ERG take over my party would I be welcomed in the Lib Dems do you thinkIanB2 said:
Good on you for at least considering it!Big_G_NorthWales said:
.Luckyguy1983 said:
I nominate Big G.grabcocque said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not trying to convincegrabcocque said:
As I keep sayinge.
Who in their right mind would want to lead the "deal" campaign?
Remain betrays the referendum
So all in all Deal for me but if not remain
Interesting tonight Peston reports TM has had a disaster when if he had been listening, and was a honest journalist, he would have reported the EU launched a broadside on the factions in
And tonight TM is laughing and having fun in her constitiency at a social gathering. This woman has type 1 diabetes (I have type 2) and her stamina is medically defying all logic
It will hang on whether the ultras really mean it when they say they would rather remain than back the deal. If they do, Remain will walk it. If they don't, there might be a contest.
They're not my cup of tea and i think their obsessiveness is generally destructive, but ultra right wing (with the historical connotations) is really not an accurate description.0 -
I think that's a fallacy - or at least unproven. One of the problems remain faced in the referendum is that the Europhobes placed all the country's ills at its knees: "It's not our fault, it's the EU's fault!"logical_song said:In the medium to long term, young people who have grown up with the EU and like it will become the majority.
That's powerful, and as those young people grow older, it may be a powerful recruiting sergeant for europhobia. It was made worse by politicians who found it was convenient to blame problems on the EU rather than accept blame themselves. It'll be even worse if we remain without a referendum.
And one other thing: remain could have won the referendum if only the activists had been half as active as leavers were. I was one of the few people on here who made a positive argument about the EU (in a very small area), and when hordes of stupid leavers tried to trash my argument without even reading it, I got fuck-all support from the remainers on here.
If you want to remain, argue for it. Sell the EU positively - and there is much that is positive to sell. Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it.0 -
Nothing much Conservative or conservative about May.Recidivist said:
Absolutely. And it rather proves that they were never Conservatives in the first place.Big_G_NorthWales said:
A group talking of voting against the party in a vnoc is unacceptablenotme said:
Come on your are hyperboling a little there. The ERG traditional right wing in the Conservative Party tradition of right wing. They want to leave the EU at any and all costs, that obsession is what separates them from the "what is right is what works" tradition of the Conservatives.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I never thought I would see the day my party were under threat from an ultra right wing group and they do not represent me at all. I hope TM can navigate the party through this crisis but if ERG take over I may offer myself to the Lib Dems and as I am only a few months older than Vince, I think, even then, I could do a better job of leading them to electoral success !!!!!!!RobD said:
Agent G: your mission, if you choose to accept it.....Big_G_NorthWales said:
It may come to pass if the ultras have anything to do with itIanB2 said:
Judging from your posts here, I'd say unreservedly.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If ERG take over my party would I be welcomed in the Lib Dems do you thinkIanB2 said:
Good on you for at least considering it!Big_G_NorthWales said:
.Luckyguy1983 said:
I nominate Big G.grabcocque said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not trying to convincegrabcocque said:
As I keep sayinge.
Who in their right mind would want to lead the "deal" campaign?
Remain betrays the referendum
So all in all Deal for me but if not remain
Interesting tonight Peston reports TM has had a disaster when if he had been listening, and was a honest journalist, he would have reported the EU launched a broadside on the factions in
And tonight TM is laughing and having fun in her constitiency at a social gathering. This woman has type 1 diabetes (I have type 2) and her stamina is medically defying all logic
It will hang on whether the ultras really mean it when they say they would rather remain than back the deal. If they do, Remain will walk it. If they don't, there might be a contest.
They're not my cup of tea and i think their obsessiveness is generally destructive, but ultra right wing (with the historical connotations) is really not an accurate description.0 -
If you think of the backstop as a form of insurance then that would make Remainers the sort of people who burn their own business down to collect the insurance payout.Jonathan said:Still think replacing the bespoke backstop with rejoining is the best compromise.
We leave on May's terms, we see if we can create a deal. If we fail, we go back in. If we succeed, off we go.
Simple. 2016 satisfied. Something for all of us to hope for.0 -
A point that the Do Not Leave campaign never grasped.JosiasJessop said:If you want to remain, argue for it. Sell the EU positively - and there is much that is positive to sell. Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it.
0 -
There are some really positive aspects to the EU, and positive ways that we have influenced them and theyve influenced us.JosiasJessop said:
I think that's a fallacy - or at least unproven. One of the problems remain faced in the referendum is that the Europhobes placed all the country's ills at its knees: "It's not our fault, it's the EU's fault!"logical_song said:In the medium to long term, young people who have grown up with the EU and like it will become the majority.
That's powerful, and as those young people grow older, it may be a powerful recruiting sergeant for europhobia. It was made worse by politicians who found it was convenient to blame problems on the EU rather than accept blame themselves. It'll be even worse if we remain without a referendum.
And one other thing: remain could have won the referendum if only the activists had been half as active as leavers were. I was one of the few people on here who made a positive argument about the EU (in a very small area), and when hordes of stupid leavers tried to trash my argument without even reading it, I got fuck-all support from the remainers on here.
If you want to remain, argue for it. Sell the EU positively - and there is much that is positive to sell. Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it.
I was a reluctant leaver. If I had known that we were going to be leaving the single market i would have not voted to leave. However, if there was a second referendum I would be voting 100% leave and if parliament decided to unilaterally revoke article 50 I would move my protests out of the democratic process.0 -
Agreed I am fairly pro the deal - it’s pragmatic - but the backstop is wrongPhilip_Thompson said:
Because of the backstop. Take that out and it would be.Big_G_NorthWales said:Maybe but the stupid thing is it needs the WDA with extension to 2022 if necessary but that is not pure enough for the ultras.
The backstop is wrong as a matter of principle to a number of people. That doesn't make them crazy.0 -
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.0 -
Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.0
-
I think I speak for most people. This is utterly fucking tiresome. You have a PhD. Do something else.Sunil_Prasannan said:
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857grabcocque said:Corbyn is an excellent campaigner. He overturned a 20pt May lead in a month and a half.
0 -
Creates a powerful incentive for a deal to fail on the EU sideJonathan said:Still think replacing the bespoke backstop with rejoining is the best compromise.
We leave on May's terms, we see if we can create a deal. If we fail, we go back in. If we succeed, off we go.
Simple. 2016 satisfied. Something for all of us to hope for.0 -
Sounds great to me. At the very least, unalloyed cranks like you, who think Jo Cox’s murder was a false flag, would hate it, which would be a massive plus point.Luckyguy1983 said:
That's because they are. Not sure whether you're a supporter or not, but if Corbyn is too left wing and should be replaced, and if the backwoods Tories are too right wing and should be ostracised, we'd have three soft left pro EU pro state pro status quo parties. Why would a democracy want or need that?IanB2 said:
If the Tory party had any sense they would have lost the whip long ago. Trouble is, so many of their members sitting under their blankets looking out to sea think these people are the guardians of the true flame.dixiedean said:If there are 20 Brexiters planning to abstain on a VONC, as reported by Buzzfeed, surely they should lose the whip now?
0 -
Leave Sunil alone, ya great big bully.Anazina said:
I think I speak for most people. This is utterly fucking tiresome. You have a PhD. Do something else.Sunil_Prasannan said:
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857grabcocque said:Corbyn is an excellent campaigner. He overturned a 20pt May lead in a month and a half.
0 -
Riot? We'll leave that to the proles. You can destroy institutions and values in much better ways.FF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.0 -
I think rioting is not likely, but I also think there is risk of very significant social discontent if we Leave without a #peoplesvote with no Deal. There is reasonable evidence that the country is opposed to that Brexit, and there would be a much stronger Rejoin campaign.FF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.
If Brexiteers want it to stick rather than become a Brexit hokey-cokey, then they should support a referendum.0 -
I would be delighted to see Kendo Clarke do exactly that. As you say, a fitting climax to a great career.ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
0 -
I don't think it's their only justification, and it's a stupid thing to say - especially from people who screeched about 'Project Fear'. Except in their case, it comes across not as a projection or prediction, but a promise.FF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.
The people voted to leave, and the referendum did not come out of a vacuum - people had been hating or mistrusting the EU for years. It's why a referendum was required, and why one would have happened eventually. Europhobia is a sickness afflicting the country.
Personally I wish the whole sordid mess would go away. It's shown Britain in a terrible light, and makes us all a bit grubbier. But I cannot wish it away, and therefore we need to find the best way out of the mire that won't end up with us falling, Benny Hill-style straight back in.0 -
There’s only one faction which has acted like the enemy within and appears to actively work against the government. It isn’t the ones you’ve named (or the other hate figures that the misogynists here seem terribly excited about). It’s the balding, dim men in grey suits.Sandpit said:
I’m sure if the numbers weren’t so tight they’d have been happy to see Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen go to the LDs, and Dominic Grieve would probably have been suspended for his antics last week in conniving with the Speaker to try and engineer a direct contravention of the manifesto on which he was elected.IanB2 said:
You say that, but I don't see much resolve (the CoE excepted) within the Tory party to take on their enemy within?Sandpit said:
Indeed. Any Conservative MPs not voting with the government on a vote of confidence will quickly find themselves kicked out of the party.Pulpstar said:
They should be deselected, if you're elected with a blue or red rosette it is sort of your one job.dixiedean said:If there are 20 Brexiters planning to abstain on a VONC, as reported by Buzzfeed, surely they should lose the whip now?
Abstaining a confidence vote the government wins might let them get away with a suspension of the whip, but if the vote goes down they sure as hell won’t be wearing blue rosettes at the resulting election.
But that’s not what you meant, is it?0 -
"Westminster Bridge was blocked by a bizarre "yellow vest" protest today.
A live stream, hosted on a Facebook page titled Fighting for Justice, showed yellow vest-wearing activists blocking the bridge for about 20 minutes. They chanted "Brexit now" before they were moved on by police."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/westminster-bridge-blocked-by-bizarre-yellow-vest-protest-a4017751.html0 -
You'd expect that to be the case, but when I was young I was very enthusiastic about the EU project. Yet over the years, somehow it just came to feel a wrong fit for the UK.logical_song said:
In the medium to long term, young people who have grown up with the EU and like it will become the majority.JosiasJessop said:
In the short term, it is worse than remaining.Beverley_C said:
I do not support Mrs May's Deal. It is worse than Remaining IMO.Luckyguy1983 said:
Thanks. It seems to be what most of us except very strong supporters of May feel.Beverley_C said:FPT:
Yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
Interested to get your thoughts. As a vocal critic of May's handling of Brexit but also the ERG, do you think we should have spent the last two years (and should now spend what time is available) in preparing for no deal, not as a desirable outcome, but as a real risk?Beverley_C said:
Indeed. I agree with Tusk. There appears to be nothing further to talk about. Mrs May needs to stay here and sort out her Brexit.grabcocque said:Tusk says the January summit May wants probably won't happen.
`‘we are ready to reconfirm our assurances and good will and good faith when it comes to the backstop - I have no mandate to organise any further negotiations`
twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1073605119533551621
That would appear to be that.
It is the default position. The risk is very real.
However it solves nothing, especially in the medium- and long-terms. The Eurosceptics will feel that they've been ignored - and they will have been - and the consequences of that for politics and society could be highly non-optimal.
Brexit needs a resolution, a result where the majority can dust our hands and say: "Thank fu*k that's over, let's get on with the important things." Then, when the stinking winnets of UKIP and the ERG start screeching, we can say: "It's over and done with. Shut up."
Just remaining - either without a referendum, or with a referendum which does not have options that cover most of the scenarios - will not be a settled resolution. It will answer nothing.
Good evening, everyone.0 -
Very true. It seemed to me that the contrast with 1975 was strong. There was a strong IN campaign then; I clearly remember leafletting, stewarding at public meetings and so on. In fact, on Referendum Day I spent about 8 hours driving the Liberals Loudspeaker Van....my wife's mini with a speaker strapped to the roof rack,...... with a plummy-voiced prominent local Conservative urging people to vote.Donny43 said:
A point that the Do Not Leave campaign never grasped.JosiasJessop said:If you want to remain, argue for it. Sell the EU positively - and there is much that is positive to sell. Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it.
I saw nothing like that this time. I got the impression that the leaders of Remain thought no-one would be daft enough to vote for Johnson and Farage's lies.
And I went looking for campaigners locally.0 -
Yep. As I've said on here many times. To be fair, I think leavers in government did - it was just the activists who failed.Donny43 said:
A point that the Do Not Leave campaign never grasped.JosiasJessop said:If you want to remain, argue for it. Sell the EU positively - and there is much that is positive to sell. Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it.
A friend of mine is so pro-EU that she seems like a lovely, cuddly anti-Farage particle, and if they were ever to meet there would be such an explosion of energy as to destroy half of London. But she did nothing during the referendum campaign, and now bitches about it whenever we speak. But she's still not doing anything aside from whinge.0 -
If I had a pound every time a leaver on here made ominous but vague threats of violence, I'd be able to buy a rather fetching hat.
They do not seem to grasp that a phalanx of huffing Express readers on mobility scooters isn't actually a terrifying threat.0 -
Leavers have all but given up pretending anything good will come out of Brexit and they never articulated specific real advantages. We're just left with wew must go ahead, otherwise there will be social disorder. I don't think it's stupid to make that observation, or to feel dissatisfied by it.JosiasJessop said:
I don't think it's their only justification, and it's a stupid thing to say - especially from people who screeched about 'Project Fear'. Except in their case, it comes across not as a projection or prediction, but a promise.FF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.
The people voted to leave, and the referendum did not come out of a vacuum - people had been hating or mistrusting the EU for years. It's why a referendum was required, and why one would have happened eventually. Europhobia is a sickness afflicting the country.
Personally I wish the whole sordid mess would go away. It's shown Britain in a terrible light, and makes us all a bit grubbier. But I cannot wish it away, and therefore we need to find the best way out of the mire that won't end up with us falling, Benny Hill-style straight back in.0 -
I did leaflet from a stall in our local market though!OldKingCole said:
Very true. It seemed to me that the contrast with 1975 was strong. There was a strong IN campaign then; I clearly remember leafletting, stewarding at public meetings and so on. In fact, on Referendum Day I spent about 8 hours driving the Liberals Loudspeaker Van....my wife's mini with a speaker strapped to the roof rack,...... with a plummy-voiced prominent local Conservative urging people to vote.Donny43 said:
A point that the Do Not Leave campaign never grasped.JosiasJessop said:If you want to remain, argue for it. Sell the EU positively - and there is much that is positive to sell. Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it.
I saw nothing like that this time. I got the impression that the leaders of Remain thought no-one would be daft enough to vote for Johnson and Farage's lies.
And I went looking for campaigners locally.0 -
You have to consider the dedicated stop Corbyn voters. The nature of Corbyn and a Momentum controlled LP makes politics very difficult to predict by looking at historical analogies - whether they win or lose. Unless Tories are actually in process of splitting or select JRM or BJ as leader I'm not sure Labour will win a majority. I'd also guess that Corbyn will have a terrible campaign this time on TV and traditional media but still do well online and in terms of rallies, Tories will probably up on-line game a bit.NickPalmer said:As I said on the last thread, the current YouGov shows remarkable unpopularity for everyone and everything - May, Corbyn and every political party. Labour scrapes to the top with 30% saying they like them.
If that persists to the election, I think that differential turnout will decide it - an awful lot of people will jusat roll their eyes and stay at home. It's there that Corbyn has an edge, because around 25% of the electorate are really enthusiastic about him. It's quite difficult to find people who think May is really good - plenty of sympathy, but very little actual enthusiastic support.0 -
Yes that’s the only reasonFF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.0 -
That and not wanting to admit their innate stupidity has ruined everything.Nemtynakht said:
Yes that’s the only reasonFF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.0 -
I think he's hilarious. Ever since Cameron was made to look like a twat by trying to take credit for 'blocking' his appointment only to see him appointed, I felt he was sound. I don't want to be part of the EU, but if we could have voted to get rid of UK Governments with dupicitous agendas and replace them with honest ones, I would have much preferred that. But the chance we got was to get rid of Juncker and his cronies instead.notme said:Is it just me or is Junker a total cock?
https://youtu.be/8g6BdN-sH7g0 -
He may be a messy old sot, but he's an entertaining one.Luckyguy1983 said:
I think he's hilarious. Ever since Cameron was made to look like a twat by trying to take credit for 'blocking' his appointment only to see him appointed, I felt he was sound. I don't want to be part of the EU, but if we could have voted to get rid of UK Governments with dupicitous agendas and replace them with honest ones, I would have much preferred that. But the chance we got was to get rid of Juncker and his cronies instead.notme said:Is it just me or is Junker a total cock?
https://youtu.be/8g6BdN-sH7g
I will miss him.0 -
For clarification, I meant it was stupid for leavers to guardedly threaten violence if we don't leave, not that your comment was stupid.FF43 said:
Leavers have all but given up pretending anything good will come out of Brexit and they never articulated specific real advantages. We're just left with wew must go ahead, otherwise there will be social disorder. I don't think it's stupid to make that observation, or to feel dissatisfied by it.JosiasJessop said:I don't think it's their only justification, and it's a stupid thing to say - especially from people who screeched about 'Project Fear'. Except in their case, it comes across not as a projection or prediction, but a promise.
The people voted to leave, and the referendum did not come out of a vacuum - people had been hating or mistrusting the EU for years. It's why a referendum was required, and why one would have happened eventually. Europhobia is a sickness afflicting the country.
Personally I wish the whole sordid mess would go away. It's shown Britain in a terrible light, and makes us all a bit grubbier. But I cannot wish it away, and therefore we need to find the best way out of the mire that won't end up with us falling, Benny Hill-style straight back in.
It's particularly stupid of them as they cannot even agree what 'leave' means, as the ERG show ...0 -
To be honest he has done it to death.OblitusSumMe said:
Leave Sunil alone, ya great big bully.Anazina said:
I think I speak for most people. This is utterly fucking tiresome. You have a PhD. Do something else.Sunil_Prasannan said:
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857grabcocque said:Corbyn is an excellent campaigner. He overturned a 20pt May lead in a month and a half.
0 -
Interesting analysis Mike thanks. Ordinarily I'd say it was pretty convincing... but these are not ordinary times, so who knows.
Also, and this has no doubt already been pointed out, it's unlikely to be a May v Corbyn contest.0 -
Look, Sunil has been repeating the same three jokes since the dawn of time.Yorkcity said:
To be honest he has done it to death.OblitusSumMe said:
Leave Sunil alone, ya great big bully.Anazina said:
I think I speak for most people. This is utterly fucking tiresome. You have a PhD. Do something else.Sunil_Prasannan said:
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857grabcocque said:Corbyn is an excellent campaigner. He overturned a 20pt May lead in a month and a half.
Just accept it.0 -
Really? There are plenty of good reasons on both sidesgrabcocque said:
That and not wanting to admit their innate stupidity has ruined everything.Nemtynakht said:
Yes that’s the only reasonFF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.
0 -
Agreed - he's very tiresome.Yorkcity said:
To be honest he has done it to death.OblitusSumMe said:
Leave Sunil alone, ya great big bully.Anazina said:
I think I speak for most people. This is utterly fucking tiresome. You have a PhD. Do something else.Sunil_Prasannan said:
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857grabcocque said:Corbyn is an excellent campaigner. He overturned a 20pt May lead in a month and a half.
0 -
Suspect we'll find out sometime in the next 12 months.NorthofStoke said:
You have to consider the dedicated stop Corbyn voters. The nature of Corbyn and a Momentum controlled LP makes politics very difficult to predict by looking at historical analogies - whether they win or lose. Unless Tories are actually in process of splitting or select JRM or BJ as leader I'm not sure Labour will win a majority. I'd also guess that Corbyn will have a terrible campaign this time on TV and traditional media but still do well online and in terms of rallies, Tories will probably up on-line game a bit.NickPalmer said:As I said on the last thread, the current YouGov shows remarkable unpopularity for everyone and everything - May, Corbyn and every political party. Labour scrapes to the top with 30% saying they like them.
If that persists to the election, I think that differential turnout will decide it - an awful lot of people will jusat roll their eyes and stay at home. It's there that Corbyn has an edge, because around 25% of the electorate are really enthusiastic about him. It's quite difficult to find people who think May is really good - plenty of sympathy, but very little actual enthusiastic support.
Remember when we used to laugh at the Italians and Belgians for their unstable governments?
0 -
Our future PM about to present HIGNFY
C'mon Gary!!
0 -
Time for a boycott of Wetherspoons.....0
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They gained some from Labour too on a net basis but lost them slightly on a net basis mainly in London and the South because some Remainers moved to stop a hard Brexit. The 42% May got was the highest Tory voteshare since 1983 and the number of seats she won still the highest Tory number since 1992, as I said most of the Labour gains came from squeezing minor parties, the LDs and UKIP ended the campaign far lower than they started for instance, Corbyn has little room to squeeze the minor parties againAmpfieldAndy said:
Tories lost seats to Labour in both Wales and England. May only kept her job thanks to a backlash against the SNP in Scotland.HYUFD said:
Plus almost all the Labour gains came from the LDs, UKIP, the Greens, the SNP and non voters.IanB2 said:
No because, unlike before, the people answering the pollsters now already includes 20% more people who know they voted Labour last time. Your theory only makes sense if these people told pollsters they were Tory, voted Labour, and then went straight back to telling pollsters they were Tory. That I don't believe.grabcocque said:Corbyn is an excellent campaigner. He overturned a 20pt May lead in a month and a half.
It will happen again.
There was very little net movement of 2015 Tory voters to Labour0 -
People still watch that show?Benpointer said:Our future PM about to present HIGNFY
C'mon Gary!!0 -
5 3 1 0 days since the last public humiliation of Theresa May.Benpointer said:
Suspect we'll find out sometime in the next 12 months.NorthofStoke said:
You have to consider the dedicated stop Corbyn voters. The nature of Corbyn and a Momentum controlled LP makes politics very difficult to predict by looking at historical analogies - whether they win or lose. Unless Tories are actually in process of splitting or select JRM or BJ as leader I'm not sure Labour will win a majority. I'd also guess that Corbyn will have a terrible campaign this time on TV and traditional media but still do well online and in terms of rallies, Tories will probably up on-line game a bit.NickPalmer said:As I said on the last thread, the current YouGov shows remarkable unpopularity for everyone and everything - May, Corbyn and every political party. Labour scrapes to the top with 30% saying they like them.
If that persists to the election, I think that differential turnout will decide it - an awful lot of people will jusat roll their eyes and stay at home. It's there that Corbyn has an edge, because around 25% of the electorate are really enthusiastic about him. It's quite difficult to find people who think May is really good - plenty of sympathy, but very little actual enthusiastic support.
Remember when we used to laugh at the Italians and Belgians for their unstable governments?0 -
This over the twitter thing?Fenman said:Time for a boycott of Wetherspoons.....
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One of the striking thing about recent campaigns and elections has been the paucity of street level activity, apart from the surfeit of Corbynites. I saw only one poster during the Brexit campaign (Leave on IoW). I did one stall in Melton, and there was a Britain First one in Leicester. Both the rallies that I went to (1 Leave in Leicester, 1 Remain in Rutland) had only a couple of dozen in attendance. I did some vote cultivating at work, but there was nothing visible in my suburb. It was an online campaign on both sides.OldKingCole said:
Very true. It seemed to me that the contrast with 1975 was strong. There was a strong IN campaign then; I clearly remember leafletting, stewarding at public meetings and so on. In fact, on Referendum Day I spent about 8 hours driving the Liberals Loudspeaker Van....my wife's mini with a speaker strapped to the roof rack,...... with a plummy-voiced prominent local Conservative urging people to vote.Donny43 said:
A point that the Do Not Leave campaign never grasped.JosiasJessop said:If you want to remain, argue for it. Sell the EU positively - and there is much that is positive to sell. Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it.
I saw nothing like that this time. I got the impression that the leaders of Remain thought no-one would be daft enough to vote for Johnson and Farage's lies.
And I went looking for campaigners locally.
I think this is how it is now. I barely saw a poster in either 2015 or 2017 GE either, despite quite extensive travels by road in a variety of constituencies, some marginal. I think political campaigning has changed, and public expression of affiliation rather frowned upon by both sides.0 -
No Tory leader since Churchill has lost a general election as PM and lasted more than a year, if May failed to win a pre 2022 general election there would also be a vacancy for opposition leaderIanB2 said:
If May is standing down before the GE, the next Tory leader will drop straight into being PM (which means it won't be Boris). Unless they resign following loss of the successive election, which is unlikely given that they are new in the job (and probably from the upcoming generation), how does Boris get to be LOTO? He'll be yesterday's man then, as indeed he is now.HYUFD said:
Probably with Boris then Leader of the Opposition.grabcocque said:
Unless something drastic happens in Scottish politics, the next government is likely to be a Labour/SNP coalition.HYUFD said:These ratings suggest Corbyn Labour will not win the next general election but Corbyn still becomes PM via the backdoor. The most likely outcome of a general election tomorrow is the Tories end up largest party, probably with a majority in England but Corbyn ends up PM due to SNP confidence and supply and we end up with permanent Customs Union and Single Market.
May could of course still lead the Tories in any early snap general election before 2022 if she loses a VONC
CHAOS WITH ED MILIBAND!
The SNP will then effectively run both Scotland and the UK.
Who needs independence?0 -
Social media and targeted internet ad campaigns are cheaper, more effective, less labour intensive, and have greater reach and virality.Foxy said:
I think political campaigning has changed, and public expression of affiliation rather frowned upon by both sides.
0 -
More like a new Chamberlain.ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
0 -
If the Tories really want to provoke the ERG into using the nuclear option, putting Ken Clarke in charge would do it.Richard_Tyndall said:
More like a new Chamberlain.ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
0 -
Only someone utterly delusional would call opposition to a political construct a sickness. It kind of sums up the Remainer attitude. Europhilia is more akin to a religion with the same utter lack of logic as its basis. You'll be calling us all blasphemers next.JosiasJessop said:
I don't think it's their only justification, and it's a stupid thing to say - especially from people who screeched about 'Project Fear'. Except in their case, it comes across not as a projection or prediction, but a promise.FF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.
The people voted to leave, and the referendum did not come out of a vacuum - people had been hating or mistrusting the EU for years. It's why a referendum was required, and why one would have happened eventually. Europhobia is a sickness afflicting the country.
Personally I wish the whole sordid mess would go away. It's shown Britain in a terrible light, and makes us all a bit grubbier. But I cannot wish it away, and therefore we need to find the best way out of the mire that won't end up with us falling, Benny Hill-style straight back in.0 -
YouGov poll klaxon!
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Certainly people are willing to push their party colours online, even amongst friends.grabcocque said:
Social media and targeted internet ad campaigns are cheaper, more effective, less labour intensive, and have greater reach and virality.Foxy said:
I think political campaigning has changed, and public expression of affiliation rather frowned upon by both sides.0 -
I would argue that your last statement is the most important. The central problem with the way that our political leaders have framed Britain's relationship with the EU is, and has been since the very beginning, that they have presented it as purely transactional. We put X-number of pounds into the budget, and get Y-number of pounds back in the form of increased economic activity. Whether you agree that it is a good idea or not, it's quite evident that no serious attempt has ever been made to sell the project of European unity as something that might actually be desirable in terms of drawing people and societies closer together: to make an emotional case for the project.JosiasJessop said:
I think that's a fallacy - or at least unproven. One of the problems remain faced in the referendum is that the Europhobes placed all the country's ills at its knees: "It's not our fault, it's the EU's fault!"logical_song said:In the medium to long term, young people who have grown up with the EU and like it will become the majority.
That's powerful, and as those young people grow older, it may be a powerful recruiting sergeant for europhobia. It was made worse by politicians who found it was convenient to blame problems on the EU rather than accept blame themselves. It'll be even worse if we remain without a referendum.
And one other thing: remain could have won the referendum if only the activists had been half as active as leavers were. I was one of the few people on here who made a positive argument about the EU (in a very small area), and when hordes of stupid leavers tried to trash my argument without even reading it, I got fuck-all support from the remainers on here.
If you want to remain, argue for it. Sell the EU positively - and there is much that is positive to sell. Don't sit back and wait for someone else to do it.
I don't know, perhaps that would never have worked? Maybe the UK is, whether for better or worse, an exceptional case? I don't think we need to go raking through the ashes of history to work out why that might be. My point is, it was never tried. So, when the Euro crisis blew up at the same time as immigration from both within and without Europe's borders became a hot button issue, it changed the cost/benefit calculus in enough people's minds to persuade the majority they were better off leaving - this in a way that did not happen in Scotland two years before, even though the "Leavers" up there were led by the country's own Government and had a larger and more vigorous campaign to help them along.
Many people are attached to Britain. That's worth a lot of extra votes. Few, by comparison, feel attached to Europe. I think that's ultimately why one proposition managed to gain majority support, whereas the other did not - and why David Cameron's first project fear worked, and his second didn't.0 -
+1ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
KC 4 PM
He is a great communicator, excellent judgement, not afraid of making hard choices/ decisions that might make him unpopular in some quarters.0 -
+1 as well. He has principles (would have been PM long ago without them) and is materially better than the current shower of politiciansThe_Taxman said:
+1ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
KC 4 PM
He is a great communicator, excellent judgement, not afraid of making hard choices/ decisions that might make him unpopular in some quarters.0 -
If so, it still won't be Boris, who will be the day before yesterday's man by then. The cry for the next generation to step up will be irresistible.HYUFD said:
No Tory leader since Churchill has lost a general election as PM and lasted more than a year, if May failed to win a pre 2022 general election there would also be a vacancy for opposition leaderIanB2 said:
If May is standing down before the GE, the next Tory leader will drop straight into being PM (which means it won't be Boris). Unless they resign following loss of the successive election, which is unlikely given that they are new in the job (and probably from the upcoming generation), how does Boris get to be LOTO? He'll be yesterday's man then, as indeed he is now.HYUFD said:
Probably with Boris then Leader of the Opposition.grabcocque said:
Unless something drastic happens in Scottish politics, the next government is likely to be a Labour/SNP coalition.HYUFD said:These ratings suggest Corbyn Labour will not win the next general election but Corbyn still becomes PM via the backdoor. The most likely outcome of a general election tomorrow is the Tories end up largest party, probably with a majority in England but Corbyn ends up PM due to SNP confidence and supply and we end up with permanent Customs Union and Single Market.
May could of course still lead the Tories in any early snap general election before 2022 if she loses a VONC
CHAOS WITH ED MILIBAND!
The SNP will then effectively run both Scotland and the UK.
Who needs independence?0 -
I am sure the 14 identified female members of the ERG will be very pleased to know they are considered balding dim men in grey suits.matt said:
There’s only one faction which has acted like the enemy within and appears to actively work against the government. It isn’t the ones you’ve named (or the other hate figures that the misogynists here seem terribly excited about). It’s the balding, dim men in grey suits.Sandpit said:
I’m sure if the numbers weren’t so tight they’d have been happy to see Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen go to the LDs, and Dominic Grieve would probably have been suspended for his antics last week in conniving with the Speaker to try and engineer a direct contravention of the manifesto on which he was elected.IanB2 said:
You say that, but I don't see much resolve (the CoE excepted) within the Tory party to take on their enemy within?Sandpit said:
Indeed. Any Conservative MPs not voting with the government on a vote of confidence will quickly find themselves kicked out of the party.Pulpstar said:
They should be deselected, if you're elected with a blue or red rosette it is sort of your one job.dixiedean said:If there are 20 Brexiters planning to abstain on a VONC, as reported by Buzzfeed, surely they should lose the whip now?
Abstaining a confidence vote the government wins might let them get away with a suspension of the whip, but if the vote goes down they sure as hell won’t be wearing blue rosettes at the resulting election.
But that’s not what you meant, is it?0 -
wint0 -
Women can be fucking idiots too, we don't discriminate.Richard_Tyndall said:
I am sure the 14 identified female members of the ERG will be very pleased to know they are considered balding dim men in grey suits.matt said:
There’s only one faction which has acted like the enemy within and appears to actively work against the government. It isn’t the ones you’ve named (or the other hate figures that the misogynists here seem terribly excited about). It’s the balding, dim men in grey suits.Sandpit said:
I’m sure if the numbers weren’t so tight they’d have been happy to see Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen go to the LDs, and Dominic Grieve would probably have been suspended for his antics last week in conniving with the Speaker to try and engineer a direct contravention of the manifesto on which he was elected.IanB2 said:
You say that, but I don't see much resolve (the CoE excepted) within the Tory party to take on their enemy within?Sandpit said:
Indeed. Any Conservative MPs not voting with the government on a vote of confidence will quickly find themselves kicked out of the party.Pulpstar said:
They should be deselected, if you're elected with a blue or red rosette it is sort of your one job.dixiedean said:If there are 20 Brexiters planning to abstain on a VONC, as reported by Buzzfeed, surely they should lose the whip now?
Abstaining a confidence vote the government wins might let them get away with a suspension of the whip, but if the vote goes down they sure as hell won’t be wearing blue rosettes at the resulting election.
But that’s not what you meant, is it?0 -
It is stupid because it is not true.FF43 said:
Leavers have all but given up pretending anything good will come out of Brexit and they never articulated specific real advantages. We're just left with wew must go ahead, otherwise there will be social disorder. I don't think it's stupid to make that observation, or to feel dissatisfied by it.JosiasJessop said:
I don't think it's their only justification, and it's a stupid thing to say - especially from people who screeched about 'Project Fear'. Except in their case, it comes across not as a projection or prediction, but a promise.FF43 said:
Maybe you're right. It doesn't sit well with me that Leavers' ONLY justification for continuing with Brexit is they will riot if they don't get their way.JosiasJessop said:
I disagree. Whilst there will always be grumbling, the level of grumbling at a remain -especially without a valid referendum - would be massive. And understandably so.FF43 said:None of our options will lead to a settled resolution within a few years. Which is the problem, of course. However we can say "No Deal" is by the far least settled. The clue's in the name.
Whereas 'No Deal' can be said to match the referendum's results. Now, I happen to think a rushed No Deal is a mistake. I would rank it right at the bottom of all the possible options, and would keep it locked in a deep, damp cellar where future generations of archaeologists might dig it up to wonder at the stupidity of Britain in the mid-2010s. "They got that close to the precipice? Wow!"
But when it comes to political and social troubles, remain is by far the worst option. I'll guarantee one thing: if we go down that route, we'll be back where we are within ten years. If not earlier.
I voted remain. I would happily remain in the EU under Cameron's deal (I would not, however, join the Euro). But May's deal seems reasonable, and something that can bring together reasonable people on both sides.
Remaining without a reasonable referendum, and especially where it will not result in a trouncing of leave, will be tragic for society. There's just so much stupid hatred of the EU out there, as we see frequently on here.
The people voted to leave, and the referendum did not come out of a vacuum - people had been hating or mistrusting the EU for years. It's why a referendum was required, and why one would have happened eventually. Europhobia is a sickness afflicting the country.
Personally I wish the whole sordid mess would go away. It's shown Britain in a terrible light, and makes us all a bit grubbier. But I cannot wish it away, and therefore we need to find the best way out of the mire that won't end up with us falling, Benny Hill-style straight back in.0 -
I would imagine that the ERG have a lot of time or respect for Ken Clarke because he has always been totally upfront about his views and never shied away from the debate. I would imagine they have no time for MP's like mine who has been named in All Out War as being a very strong remainer linked to the Grieve group in Parliament, but who will not offer one scintilla of his pro EU views to his constituents. It is these people that need to be got out of Parliament to let more Ken CLarkes in.grabcocque said:
If the Tories really want to provoke the ERG into using the nuclear option, putting Ken Clarke in charge would do it.Richard_Tyndall said:
More like a new Chamberlain.ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
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There's opposition to something, and then there's wanting it so badly you're willing to do anything for it, or when it becomes all-consuming. That's when it becomes a sickness.Richard_Tyndall said:Only someone utterly delusional would call opposition to a political construct a sickness. It kind of sums up the Remainer attitude. Europhilia is more akin to a religion with the same utter lack of logic as its basis. You'll be calling us all blasphemers next.
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People said the same about Trump, it was Rubio etc who were the next generation just as Javid is supposedly for the Tories now, the GOP primary voters just like Tory members had other ideas they wanted a charismatic populist with a message they believed inIanB2 said:
If so, it still won't be Boris, who will be the day before yesterday's man by then. The cry for the next generation to step up will be irresistible.HYUFD said:
No Tory leader since Churchill has lost a general election as PM and lasted more than a year, if May failed to win a pre 2022 general election there would also be a vacancy for opposition leaderIanB2 said:
If May is standing down before the GE, the next Tory leader will drop straight into being PM (which means it won't be Boris). Unless they resign following loss of the successive election, which is unlikely given that they are new in the job (and probably from the upcoming generation), how does Boris get to be LOTO? He'll be yesterday's man then, as indeed he is now.HYUFD said:
Probably with Boris then Leader of the Opposition.grabcocque said:
Unless something drastic happens in Scottish politics, the next government is likely to be a Labour/SNP coalition.HYUFD said:These ratings suggest Corbyn Labour will not win the next general election but Corbyn still becomes PM via the backdoor. The most likely outcome of a general election tomorrow is the Tories end up largest party, probably with a majority in England but Corbyn ends up PM due to SNP confidence and supply and we end up with permanent Customs Union and Single Market.
May could of course still lead the Tories in any early snap general election before 2022 if she loses a VONC
CHAOS WITH ED MILIBAND!
The SNP will then effectively run both Scotland and the UK.
Who needs independence?0 -
+1Yorkcity said:
To be honest he has done it to death.OblitusSumMe said:
Leave Sunil alone, ya great big bully.Anazina said:
I think I speak for most people. This is utterly fucking tiresome. You have a PhD. Do something else.Sunil_Prasannan said:
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857grabcocque said:Corbyn is an excellent campaigner. He overturned a 20pt May lead in a month and a half.
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Another +1 from me. I don’t agree with everything he says but he is head and shoulders above the current crop and one of the best PMs we never had.tottenhamWC said:
+1 as well. He has principles (would have been PM long ago without them) and is materially better than the current shower of politiciansThe_Taxman said:
+1ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
KC 4 PM
He is a great communicator, excellent judgement, not afraid of making hard choices/ decisions that might make him unpopular in some quarters.0 -
In honour of the splits in the country, I have changed my profile picture to a scene I found outside a couple of houses during a walk a few months ago.
I wonder if the neighbours get on?
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Tonight is frot kenneth night on PB0
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He's good value and apparently good company. That little jig he did at the podium the day after May's dancing speech was classic. And especially the official statement afterwards that he wasn't making a point about anyone but was just in a good mood.Luckyguy1983 said:
I think he's hilarious. Ever since Cameron was made to look like a twat by trying to take credit for 'blocking' his appointment only to see him appointed, I felt he was sound. I don't want to be part of the EU, but if we could have voted to get rid of UK Governments with dupicitous agendas and replace them with honest ones, I would have much preferred that. But the chance we got was to get rid of Juncker and his cronies instead.notme said:Is it just me or is Junker a total cock?
https://youtu.be/8g6BdN-sH7g
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Actually I can't be too critical of Ken much as I wouldn't be too critical of Chamberlain. Both act(ed) on principles because they thought what they were doing was best for the country., I think both are wrong but I would much rather have someone with principles in charge than someone who just wanted power - which I think is pretty much what we have had since 1990.grabcocque said:
If the Tories really want to provoke the ERG into using the nuclear option, putting Ken Clarke in charge would do it.Richard_Tyndall said:
More like a new Chamberlain.ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
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And +1. I am fed up with these child politicians; it is time for the grown ups.numbertwelve said:
Another +1 from me. I don’t agree with everything he says but he is head and shoulders above the current crop and one of the best PMs we never had.tottenhamWC said:
+1 as well. He has principles (would have been PM long ago without them) and is materially better than the current shower of politiciansThe_Taxman said:
+1ThomasNashe said:Interesting interview with Ken Clarke on C4 News. His renewed visibility over the last few days is significant. It looks like he's gearing up to lead a coalition of the sane out of this unholy mess. Let's hope so. It would be a brilliant culmination to a great career: the new Churchill coming back to lead his country away from the abyss.
KC 4 PM
He is a great communicator, excellent judgement, not afraid of making hard choices/ decisions that might make him unpopular in some quarters.
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In the middle of a load of posts praising Ken Clarke...IanB2 said:
If so, it still won't be Boris, who will be the day before yesterday's man by then. The cry for the next generation to step up will be irresistible.HYUFD said:
No Tory leader since Churchill has lost a general election as PM and lasted more than a year, if May failed to win a pre 2022 general election there would also be a vacancy for opposition leaderIanB2 said:
If May is standing down before the GE, the next Tory leader will drop straight into being PM (which means it won't be Boris). Unless they resign following loss of the successive election, which is unlikely given that they are new in the job (and probably from the upcoming generation), how does Boris get to be LOTO? He'll be yesterday's man then, as indeed he is now.HYUFD said:
Probably with Boris then Leader of the Opposition.grabcocque said:
Unless something drastic happens in Scottish politics, the next government is likely to be a Labour/SNP coalition.HYUFD said:These ratings suggest Corbyn Labour will not win the next general election but Corbyn still becomes PM via the backdoor. The most likely outcome of a general election tomorrow is the Tories end up largest party, probably with a majority in England but Corbyn ends up PM due to SNP confidence and supply and we end up with permanent Customs Union and Single Market.
May could of course still lead the Tories in any early snap general election before 2022 if she loses a VONC
CHAOS WITH ED MILIBAND!
The SNP will then effectively run both Scotland and the UK.
Who needs independence?0 -
grabcocque said:
YouGov poll klaxon!
How can you keep grating cheese that is too small to grate? A modern day koan for our times.0 -
It's just a poll - let's wait for the grate referendum before we get excited shall we?grabcocque said:YouGov poll klaxon!
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It's tiresome for the first 20 or so times. But after a while it becomes funny again. A bit like the running jokes in Private Eye.Anazina said:
I think I speak for most people. This is utterly fucking tiresome. You have a PhD. Do something else.Sunil_Prasannan said:
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857grabcocque said:Corbyn is an excellent campaigner. He overturned a 20pt May lead in a month and a half.
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But the questions clearly grate on some people. Which isn't great. We don't want anyone cheesed off. Could cost OGH a packet on an argument as pointless as a list of the virtues of The Last Jedi.Benpointer said:
It's just a poll - let's wait for the grate referendum before we get excited shall we?grabcocque said:YouGov poll klaxon!
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The headline says 'too small to grate' but the question doesn’t. Fake news!numbertwelve said:grabcocque said:YouGov poll klaxon!
How can you keep grating cheese that is too small to grate? A modern day koan for our times.0 -
As a crisis caretaker, for sure. Who would see Boris as a safe pair of hands?Donny43 said:
In the middle of a load of posts praising Ken Clarke...IanB2 said:
If so, it still won't be Boris, who will be the day before yesterday's man by then. The cry for the next generation to step up will be irresistible.HYUFD said:
No Tory leader since Churchill has lost a general election as PM and lasted more than a year, if May failed to win a pre 2022 general election there would also be a vacancy for opposition leaderIanB2 said:
If May is standing down before the GE, the next Tory leader will drop straight into being PM (which means it won't be Boris). Unless they resign following loss of the successive election, which is unlikely given that they are new in the job (and probably from the upcoming generation), how does Boris get to be LOTO? He'll be yesterday's man then, as indeed he is now.HYUFD said:
Probably with Boris then Leader of the Opposition.grabcocque said:
Unless something drastic happens in Scottish politics, the next government is likely to be a Labour/SNP coalition.HYUFD said:These ratings suggest Corbyn Labour will not win the next general election but Corbyn still becomes PM via the backdoor. The most likely outcome of a general election tomorrow is the Tories end up largest party, probably with a majority in England but Corbyn ends up PM due to SNP confidence and supply and we end up with permanent Customs Union and Single Market.
May could of course still lead the Tories in any early snap general election before 2022 if she loses a VONC
CHAOS WITH ED MILIBAND!
The SNP will then effectively run both Scotland and the UK.
Who needs independence?0 -
What disturbs me are the 3% "other". Who are these people, and what do they do the kinky beasts?grabcocque said:YouGov poll klaxon!
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This discussion has been closed.