politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » BACK TO THE FUTURE – Part 1 Europe has changed – We can’t put
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I'm not sure Parliament would vote to reject it at the level you predicted if they knew it would immediately be withdrawn.grabcocque said:
"Sure, it's my fault this deal just suffered a galactic-scale shellacking in Parliament, which is why you should totally let me try again!"RobD said:
She wouldn't have rejected it, Parliament would have.grabcocque said:
So, let me get this straight. What Cabinet wants is for May to go back to Brussels and tell them *she* rejects the deal *she* negotiated and *she* signed? And then demand the renegotiation *she* told us was impossible, and *she* got the EU to demand was also impossible?kle4 said:
They still believe in a negotiation. May surviving or not the first action will be to beg Brussels for some further concessions. Only if that fails will the Tories start as a whole start accepting the idea of a second referendum, though how they might fall on the question and options I am less sure about.grabcocque said:
Mostly, it's May's final play. After Tuesday, May only has one opportunity to save her deal, and that's get it approved in a referendum. The difficutly for May is that her party will depose her long before she has a chance to bring forward a referendum bill.glw said:
I simply can not see how Parliament would pass legislation to enable a deal we are told they will reject by a huge margin next week, and No Deal is that times ten. If there is to be a second referendum the options have to be things Parliament will pass, not things they've rejected, or swear they will block in any circumstance.kle4 said:Hence a compromise with all options which parliament doesn't like but makes all think their path would win. It's a gamble. One I'd rather they not take, but time for remainers and no dealers to see if they are indeed the will of the people.
I've little doubt that if either of those referendums are carried out, and we vote Leave where the options are May's Deal or No Deal, then we will be heading straight to a third referendum.
Yeah, that sounds like a fruitful strategy alright. It definitely won't get *her* laughed out of the Europa Building.
I think the EU should take the WA off the table.
"Since the UK Parliament has rejected the WA by a large enough margin that it's clear the UK will never accept any withdrawal agreement that the EU offers in good faith, so do we formally withdraw our offer."0 -
They've already met with Corbyn and the DUP....kle4 said:
Yes, but why take her word for it when you can speak to the people you know are needed to see it through (particularly Corbyn and the DUP)?RobD said:
I think she'd have some ideas of what would make it more palatable.kle4 said:
And since she has no idea what Parliament will and will not accept, given how much the deal will be voted down by, she might as well bring along Corbyn, Cable and the SNP so the EU negotiators can tell them all 'It's this deal or you beg for an off the shelf option'.RobD said:
She wouldn't have rejected it, Parliament would have.grabcocque said:
So, let me get this straight. What Cabinet wants is for May to go back to Brussels and tell them *she* rejects the deal *she* negotiated and *she* signed? And then demand the renegotiation *she* told us was impossible, and *she* got the EU to demand was also impossible?kle4 said:
They still believe in a negotiation. May surviving or not the first action will be to beg Brussels for some further concessions. Only if that fails will the Tories start as a whole start accepting the idea of a second referendum, though how they might fall on the question and options I am less sure about.grabcocque said:
Mostly, it's May's final play. After Tuesday, May only has one opportunity to save her deal, and that's get it approved in a referendum. The difficutly for May is that her party will depose her long before she has a chance to bring forward a referendum bill.glw said:
I simply can not see how Parliament would pass legislation to enable a deal we are told they will reject by a huge margin next week, and No Deal is that times ten. If there is to be a second referendum the options have to be things Parliament will pass, not things they've rejected, or swear they will block in any circumstance.kle4 said:Hence a compromise with all options which parliament doesn't like but makes all think their path would win. It's a gamble. One I'd rather they not take, but time for remainers and no dealers to see if they are indeed the will of the people.
I've little doubt that if either of those referendums are carried out, and we vote Leave where the options are May's Deal or No Deal, then we will be heading straight to a third referendum.
Yeah, that sounds like a fruitful strategy alright. It definitely won't get *her* laughed out of the Europa Building.0 -
I agree. If Parliament believes that both May's deal and no deal leave the UK In a worse position then it should act accordingly. It should vote to extend article 50 and then call a general election. If the voters disagreee they can elect a new parliament with a mandate to accept the deal.glw said:
I undestand the point you are making about how the civil service can only prepare for those forms of Leave, but I don't see how Parliament can honour those outcomes when they are about to reject May's Deal next week, and many, many people have made it abundantly clear that No Deal will be blocked.HYUFD said:The only Leave options now are May's Deal or No Deal, short of BINO single market and customs union in which case we may as well Remain on current terms anyway.
Hence civil servants are preparing for a May Deal v Remain referendum or a Leave v Remain referendum with Deal or No Deal to be decided in a second question if Leave wins as even if MPs want to Remain they have to get that approved by referendum against Leave and those are the only Leave options on the table
It would be more honest for Parliament to simply pull the plug on the whole process, rather than to hold a farcical referendum where only the right answer will honoured.0 -
I don't think they will reject it like that, but I think Parliament still would vote to reject the deal. They don't believe EU figures that they will not renegotiate, they wouldn't believe being told the WA will not be available to be accepted a second time or tweaked if they reject it.RobD said:
I'm not sure Parliament would vote to reject it at the level you predicted if they knew it would immediately be withdrawn.grabcocque said:
"Sure, it's my fault this deal just suffered a galactic-scale shellacking in Parliament, which is why you should totally let me try again!"RobD said:
She wouldn't have rejected it, Parliament would have.grabcocque said:
So, let me get this straight. What Cabinet wants is for May to go back to Brussels and tell them *she* rejects the deal *she* negotiated and *she* signed? And then demand the renegotiation *she* told us was impossible, and *she* got the EU to demand was also impossible?kle4 said:
They ssure about.grabcocque said:
Mostly, it's May's final play. After Tuesday, May only has one opportunity to save her deal, and that's get it approved in a referendum. The difficutly for May is that her party will depose her long before she has a chance to bring forward a referendum bill.glw said:
I simply can not see how Parliament would pass legislation to enable a deal we are told they will reject by a huge margin next week, and No Deal is that times ten. If there is to be a second referendum the options have to be things Parliament will pass, not things they've rejected, or swear they will block in any circumstance.kle4 said:Hence a compromise with all options which parliament doesn't like but makes all think their path would win. It's a gamble. One I'd rather they not take, but time for remainers and no dealers to see if they are indeed the will of the people.
I've little doubt that if either of those referendums are carried out, and we vote Leave where the options are May's Deal or No Deal, then we will be heading straight to a third referendum.
Yeah, that sounds like a fruitful strategy alright. It definitely won't get *her* laughed out of the Europa Building.
I think the EU should take the WA off the table.
"Since the UK Parliament has rejected the WA by a large enough margin that it's clear the UK will never accept any withdrawal agreement that the EU offers in good faith, so do we formally withdraw our offer."0 -
Apparently the Torys' only recipe for electoral success is to drape themselves in a white sheet, leap out on an unsuspecting electorate and yell 'BOOOO JEREMY CORBYN COMETH'.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?
I don't think it's going to work.
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So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
As there is no alternative to EUref2 given Parliament and most of the Cabinet and the civil service quite clearly have no interest in preparing for No Deal or allowing it, certainly not without a referendum deciding it and even then a Remain v Deal option is more likely.glw said:
I undestand the point you are making about how the civil service can only prepare for those forms of Leave, but I don't see how Parliament can honour those outcomes when they are about to reject May's Deal next week, and many, many people have made it abundantly clear that No Deal will be blocked.HYUFD said:The only Leave options now are May's Deal or No Deal, short of BINO single market and customs union in which case we may as well Remain on current terms anyway.
Hence civil servants are preparing for a May Deal v Remain referendum or a Leave v Remain referendum with Deal or No Deal to be decided in a second question if Leave wins as even if MPs want to Remain they have to get that approved by referendum against Leave and those are the only Leave options on the table
It would be more honest for Parliament to simply pull the plug on the whole process, rather than to hold a farcical referendum where only the right answer will honoured.
What you suggest and Parliament simply voting to cancel Article 50 and to cancel Brexit and for Remain would lead to a near revolution I think and could even see a UKIP or Farage party get an SNP 2015 style landslide at the next general election so that is not an option either0 -
Alongside the formal representatives of the UK negotiating team was my suggestion. Parliament wants to take back control, that's fine, but they need to be at the heart of it alongside the government then.RobD said:
They've already met with Corbyn and the DUP....kle4 said:
Yes, but why take her word for it when you can speak to the people you know are needed to see it through (particularly Corbyn and the DUP)?RobD said:
I think she'd have some ideas of what would make it more palatable.kle4 said:
And since she has no idea what Parliament will and will not accept, given how much the deal will be voted down by, she might as well bring along Corbyn, Cable and the SNP so the EU negotiators can tell them all 'It's this deal or you beg for an off the shelf option'.RobD said:
She wouldn't have rejected it, Parliament would have.grabcocque said:
So, let me get this straight. What Cabinet wants is for May to go back to Brussels and tell them *she* rejects the deal *she* negotiated and *she* signed? And then demand the renegotiation *she* told us was impossible, and *she* got the EU to demand was also impossible?kle4 said:
They still believe in a negotiation. May surviving or not the first action will be to beg Brussels for some further concessions. Only if that fails will the Tories start as a whole start accepting the idea of a second referendum, though how they might fall on the question and options I am less sure about.grabcocque said:
Mostly, it's May's final play. After Tuesday, May only has one opportunity to save her deal, and that's get it approved in a referendum. The difficutly for May is that her party will depose her long before she has a chance to bring forward a referendum bill.glw said:
I simkle4 said:Hence a compromise with all options which parliament doesn't like but makes all think their path would win. It's a gamble. One I'd rather they not take, but time for remainers and no dealers to see if they are indeed the will of the people.
I've little doubt that if either of those referendums are carried out, and we vote Leave where the options are May's Deal or No Deal, then we will be heading straight to a third referendum.
Yeah, that sounds like a fruitful strategy alright. It definitely won't get *her* laughed out of the Europa Building.0 -
I guess it all goes back to the situation at Liverpool and that interview he gave. Personally I don't care about him one bit, but then I don't read the papers and I don't really care about the England national team.kle4 said:
Stirling does seem to get a lot of nasty attention that others do not, but on the other hand there are any number of prominent ethnic minority players who don't receive anything like it, or are outright adored by fans and not abused by opposition fans. I don't quite know why he seems to be such a lightning rod.tlg86 said:
It could be an interesting week in the football press. It's a big accusation made by Stirling and those that work for the Mail need to decide if they think he's right or not. If they think he's wrong, they need to say so. And if they think he's right, they need to quite their jobs. I get sick and tired of football writers saying "we don't have control over what the front of the paper does." Sorry, that just does not wash.Roger said:Another interesting observation by Raheem Sterling.
https://www.joe.ie/sport/raheem-sterling-speaks-abuse-chelsea-game-651027
FWIW, I don't think Stirling gets anything that Rooney didn't. And I don't think his comparison of Foden to a player no one has heard of is particularly helpful. I think it's bad for football that kids who are nowhere near the first team are on £25,000 a week. Jadon Sancho and others deserve much credit for shunning the money to go abroad to play first team football.0 -
https://twitter.com/David_Cameron/status/595112367358406656John_M said:
Apparently the Torie's only recipe for electoral success is to drape themselves in a white sheet and leap out on an unsuspecting electorate and yell 'BOOOO JEREMY CORBYN COMETH'.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?
I don't think it's going to work.0 -
It may limit the scale of defeat, but it won't be enough and they won't have anything else to fall back on.John_M said:
Apparently the Torie's only recipe for electoral success is to drape themselves in a white sheet and leap out on an unsuspecting electorate and yell 'BOOOO JEREMY CORBYN COMETH'.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?
I don't think it's going to work.0 -
But only with the SNP.grabcocque said:
https://twitter.com/David_Cameron/status/595112367358406656John_M said:
Apparently the Torie's only recipe for electoral success is to drape themselves in a white sheet and leap out on an unsuspecting electorate and yell 'BOOOO JEREMY CORBYN COMETH'.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?
I don't think it's going to work.0 -
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
AgreedMorris_Dancer said:Mr. HYUFD, I do think a second referendum is now more likely than not.
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I'm not taking to the streets with me AK-47, but if the Conservatives don't deliver some form of Brexit, I will never vote for 'em again, cub's honour.kle4 said:
It may limit the scale of defeat, but it won't be enough and they won't have anything else to fall back on.John_M said:
Apparently the Torie's only recipe for electoral success is to drape themselves in a white sheet and leap out on an unsuspecting electorate and yell 'BOOOO JEREMY CORBYN COMETH'.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?
I don't think it's going to work.0 -
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
If the Euro does break we'll be hit badly whatever.0
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Be warned Tories, once you've lost John_M, can you come back?John_M said:
I'm not taking to the streets with me AK-47, but if the Conservatives don't deliver some form of Brexit, I will never vote for 'em again, cub's honour.kle4 said:
It may limit the scale of defeat, but it won't be enough and they won't have anything else to fall back on.John_M said:
Apparently the Torie's only recipe for electoral success is to drape themselves in a white sheet and leap out on an unsuspecting electorate and yell 'BOOOO JEREMY CORBYN COMETH'.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?
I don't think it's going to work.
Although I am slightly concerned you own an AK-47 even if you are not intending to use it.0 -
BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG0
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The utility of an owl is much overrated.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
I thought Matt Hancock had been put in charge of organising both.Donny43 said:
And there won't be food shortages and disruptions to medical supplies, so that's a moot point.AlastairMeeks said:
That option was not campaigned for and actively dismissed by Leave campaigners. The public did not vote for food shortages and disruptions to medical supplies. If Britain is to leave the EU with those risks, it needs a mandate first.Donny43 said:That's not true though. May has utterly bungled the negotiations. And even now there is an option to leave: we just leave.
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So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
There are few bluer folk than me. I'm their core vote made flesh. I voted for Tony in '97, but my Labour friends tell me he was a Tory too, so it doesn't count.kle4 said:
Be warned Tories, once you've lost John_M, can you come back?John_M said:
I'm not taking to the streets with me AK-47, but if the Conservatives don't deliver some form of Brexit, I will never vote for 'em again, cub's honour.kle4 said:
It may limit the scale of defeat, but it won't be enough and they won't have anything else to fall back on.John_M said:
Apparently the Torie's only recipe for electoral success is to drape themselves in a white sheet and leap out on an unsuspecting electorate and yell 'BOOOO JEREMY CORBYN COMETH'.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?
I don't think it's going to work.
Although I am slightly concerned you own an AK-47 even if you are not intending to use it.
And you don't worry about Mr Dancer with his genetically engineered biological weapons and giant space cannon? This is most unfair!0 -
Euro and Schengen with any luck.David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
Reamin' may certainly be involved.David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
No surprise, the DUP want the Tories to VONC May, not Parliament.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
That said, there's no way May would be telling the BBC if she was planning to stand down. But if her defeat is as monstrously vast as it seems it's going to be, it's hard to see why she'd even want to carry on.
This is shaping up to be a humiliation on a scale far vaster than the one that pushed out Call Me Dave.0 -
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.TudorRose said:
So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl
(thanks wikipedia)0 -
Not necessarily, it looks like the Whitehall and Westminster machine is moving towards EUref2 and based on the polling from YouGov the Deal could win that, the Deal was tied with Remain 50% 50% if it is Deal v Remain and the Deal trounced No Deal 65% to 35% if it is Leave v Remain and Leave wins followed by Deal v No Dealgrabcocque said:
No surprise, the DUP want the Tories to VONC May, not Parliament.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
That said, there's no way May would be telling the BBC if she was planning to stand down. But if her defeat is as monstrously vast as it seems it's going to be, it's hard to see why she'd even want to carry on.
This is shaping up to be a humiliation on a scale far vaster than the one that pushed out Call Me Dave.0 -
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.0 -
The scenario where they press ahead and it turns into a shambles isn't that hot for them, either.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?0 -
'True' Owls vs Barn Owls.kle4 said:
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.
(thanks wikipedia)
The owl equivalent of U- vs non-U.
0 -
Actually, the ERG would be better off leaving her in place if they are happy with no deal.SandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.0 -
Ah, but the crazy old(young) mad scientist types are not truly something to worry about - salt of the earth types getting prepared is the thing to be concerned about.John_M said:
There are few bluer folk than me. I'm their core vote made flesh. I voted for Tony in '97, but my Labour friends tell me he was a Tory too, so it doesn't count.kle4 said:
Be warned Tories, once you've lost John_M, can you come back?John_M said:
I'm not taking to the streets with me AK-47, but if the Conservatives don't deliver some form of Brexit, I will never vote for 'em again, cub's honour.kle4 said:
It may limit the scale of defeat, but it won't be enough and they won't have anything else to fall back on.John_M said:
Apparently the Torie's only recipe for electoral success is to drape themselves in a white sheet and leap out on an unsuspecting electorate and yell 'BOOOO JEREMY CORBYN COMETH'.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?
I don't think it's going to work.
Although I am slightly concerned you own an AK-47 even if you are not intending to use it.
And you don't worry about Mr Dancer with his genetically engineered biological weapons and giant space cannon? This is most unfair!0 -
Thanks to the Advocate General's ruling we would remain on current terms and after all the hot air and expense and wasted time of the last 2 1/2 years would be back exactly as we were beforeSandyRentool said:
Euro and Schengen with any luck.David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
Mr Dancer has promised to only use his terrifying super weapons for good. Or, at least, maximum entertainment.kle4 said:
Ah, but the crazy old(young) mad scientist types are not truly something to worry about - salt of the earth types getting prepared is the thing to be concerned about.0 -
Unfortunately until such time as an extension, for whatever purpose, is agreed with the EU there is still a ticking clock and can we afford the Tories to have a big navel gazing session over the Xmas break? Hence why if she does not stand down (which is my assumption despite denials) or get removed, she will laughably stand up and say 'I have heard the will of the house. I will return to the EU and explain that the WA cannot be accepted in its current form and convey the points of concern raised across this house. I will return in one week with an answer'.SandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.0 -
Hence it looks increasingly likely they will let the voters decide for them in EUref2IanB2 said:
The scenario where they press ahead and it turns into a shambles isn't that hot for them, either.Floater said:Just bear in mind that if the tories renege on Brexit they will be monstered at the next Election
It really is as simple as that.
If leaving was going to be such a disaster it should never have been offered. It was
Cameron should not have told us leaving would have an affect, but wouldn't be a disaster - he did.
May should never have stood there time after time and said Brexit means brexit and offer her red lines (which she promptly ignored) - but she did.
The Government should have planned for other eventualities than frictionless trade - but they didn't
Remind me (other than to stop Corbyn) why anyone should vote for that deceitful shambles?0 -
Not quite. We'd be a bit older, a bit wiser, a bit angrier. The ECJ will have a veto on us invoking A50 again. And any future UK government, having seen the tornado of bullshit they'd be unleashing, will never again offer a referendum on anything to do with the EU.HYUFD said:
Thanks to the Advocate General's ruling we would remain on current terms and after all the hot air and expense and wasted time of the last 2 1/2 years would be back exactly as we were beforeSandyRentool said:
Euro and Schengen with any luck.David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
Mr. NorthWales, if May loses as badly as expected then the Conservative should knife her like it's the ninth episode in a Game of Thrones season.
Mr. Cocque, one can assure you, the space cannon's ticket sales will be put to a good cause.
Edited extra bit: hmm. I did have a momentary wondering about changing the wording of the first paragraph. Some have recently gone overboard with such rhetoric, but hopefully the site trusts the sentiment (ie, stop faffing about and get it done. If it were done, best 'twere done quickly).
May clinging on after her deal was obliterated is unacceptable. Her authority would be in tatters.0 -
Only with a lot more animosity within the EU. A recipe for harmony if ever there was one, for them and us.HYUFD said:
Thanks to the Advocate General's ruling we would remain on current terms and after all the hot air and expense and wasted time of the last 2 1/2 years would be back exactly as we were beforeSandyRentool said:
Euro and Schengen with any luck.David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.0 -
Mr. HYUFD, point of order: the Advocate General has issued an opinion, not a ruling. The ruling comes tomorrow.0
-
Well that too, certainly not on leaving the whole thinggrabcocque said:
Not quite. We'd be a bit older, a bit wiser, a bit angrier. The ECJ will have a veto on us invoking A50 again. And any future UK government, having seen the tornado of bullshit they'd be unleashing, will never again offer a referendum on anything to do with the EU.HYUFD said:
Thanks to the Advocate General's ruling we would remain on current terms and after all the hot air and expense and wasted time of the last 2 1/2 years would be back exactly as we were beforeSandyRentool said:
Euro and Schengen with any luck.David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
Three Brexiteers crossed their red lines,
Parlez-veus,
Three Brexiteers crossed their red lines,
Parlez-veus,
Three Brexiteers crossed their red lines,
A Backstop Deal til the end of time,
Inky, dinky, parlez-veus.0 -
Given the populist forces of left and right tearing across Europe the EU is not in harmony whether we are in or not anywaykle4 said:
Only with a lot more animosity within the EU. A recipe for harmony if ever there was one, for them and us.HYUFD said:
Thanks to the Advocate General's ruling we would remain on current terms and after all the hot air and expense and wasted time of the last 2 1/2 years would be back exactly as we were beforeSandyRentool said:
Euro and Schengen with any luck.David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
Adding to that disharmony is not going to make it better.HYUFD said:
Given the populist forces of left and right tearing across Europe the EU is not in harmony whether we are in or not anywaykle4 said:
Only with a lot more animosity within the EU. A recipe for harmony if ever there was one, for them and us.HYUFD said:
Thanks to the Advocate General's ruling we would remain on current terms and after all the hot air and expense and wasted time of the last 2 1/2 years would be back exactly as we were beforeSandyRentool said:
Euro and Schengen with any luck.David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
That would be both pointless and irresponsible. Parliament may as well vote the deal through and be done with; if they aren't prepared to endorse the government's plan then people need to be asked whether they will, or alternatively call the whole charade off.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl0 -
I'll accept unwilling rather than unable, but it comes to the same thing. Leavers get to decide this. If we stay in the EU it will be because a chunk of them have changed their minds. If we get the Vassal State, it's because leavers have decided the fact of leaving is more important than the loss of sovereignty. If we get Canada it will because leavers have decided it's worth the decade long hassle and uncertainty of negotiation, leading to less influence, less prosperity and less money for the NHS etc. As someone who voted Remain, none of this has anything to with me, except to note that Leavers really aren't facing up to their choices. Hence the mess.Black_Rook said:
I don't think it's so much a matter of inability as unwillingness. Not being part of the European Union is not an insoluble conundrum. It's just that the collection of mostly lazy, duplicitous or stupid individuals that constitute our Parliament don't want to try. That's why we are in this mess.FF43 said:
We can be Canada if we are prepared to negotiate for years and take a significant hit to our living standards at the end of it. But we won't be. We're too invested in the European system for that. So we we will stay in the system because of our inability to come up with anything better. That inability is real, which is why we are in this mess.Black_Rook said:
Quite. The logic of some EU supporters on this point fails the Canada test. The Canadians are both economically dependent on their beast of a neighbour and vastly smaller (by population,) in the same way as we are on ours, yet they are very happy with their lot and have absolutely zero interest in the manifold benefits that throwing in the towel and becoming part of the US might provide. Nor do they feel the need to chain themselves to the US by a web of restrictive treaties, subject their legal system to its oversight, and farm out great chunks of their trade, employment and other policies to be written for them by Donald Trump.Richard_Tyndall said:
Simply untrue That is just the myth that you Remainers try to perpetuate to justify the lack of logic in your position. One might just as easily say we are part of the American system but not in it but I don't see to many people crying out to be the 51st state.FF43 said:Brexit precisely means moving into outer orbit. Part of the system but not a participant in it. That's where Leavers are so wrong. All the contradictions of Brexit hang on this core fact. "Vote Leave to take control" was the biggest lie of them all.
Why can't we be another Canada?0 -
Or until such time as the DUP pull the trigger.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.0 -
Are you quite sure of that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.0 -
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
0 -
Coming from yourself I know you did not literally mean for her to be knifed but best not to go there.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, if May loses as badly as expected then the Conservative should knife her like it's the ninth episode in a Game of Thrones season.
Mr. Cocque, one can assure you, the space cannon's ticket sales will be put to a good cause.
Edited extra bit: hmm. I did have a momentary wondering about changing the wording of the first paragraph. Some have recently gone overboard with such rhetoric, but hopefully the site trusts the sentiment (ie, stop faffing about and get it done. If it were done, best 'twere done quickly).
May clinging on after her deal was obliterated is unacceptable. Her authority would be in tatters.
If she stands firm, which I expect she will, only a successful vnoc from her party or labour will remove her and that does not look likely
That does not mean that when she reports back to the HOC within the 21 days anything could happen then
0 -
Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)0 -
Nevertheless, that reports had Cabinet Members demanding it (WIlliamson) or May herself considering it, shows they still don't have any idea what to do next, as they don't even know the process they are currently engaged with, and somehow believed not having the vote would fix things somehow.AlastairMeeks said:
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
0 -
He should have done more than one song in his career and then it would not happen thenJosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
0 -
Leavers are far more concerned about making sure they don't get outflanked by even more rabid leavers shouting betrayal, than they are interested in facing up to the real world challenges of implementing their project.FF43 said:
I'll accept unwilling rather than unable, but it comes to the same thing. Leavers get to decide this. If we stay in the EU it will be because a chunk of them have changed their minds. If we get the Vassal State, it's because leavers have decided the fact of leaving is more important than the loss of sovereignty. If we get Canada it will because leavers have decided it's worth the decade long hassle and uncertainty of negotiation, leading to less influence, less prosperity and less money for the NHS etc. As someone who voted Remain, none of this has anything to with me, except to note that Leavers really aren't facing up to their choices. Hence the mess.Black_Rook said:
I don't think it's so much a matter of inability as unwillingness. Not being part of the European Union is not an insoluble conundrum. It's just that the collection of mostly lazy, duplicitous or stupid individuals that constitute our Parliament don't want to try. That's why we are in this mess.FF43 said:
We can be Canada if we are prepared to negotiate for years and take a significant hit to our living standards at the end of it. But we won't be. We're too invested in the European system for that. So we we will stay in the system because of our inability to come up with anything better. That inability is real, which is why we are in this mess.Black_Rook said:
Quite. The logic of some EU supporters on this point fails the Canada test. The Canadians are both economically dependent on their beast of a neighbour and vastly smaller (by population,) in the same way as we .Richard_Tyndall said:
Simply untrue That is just the myth that you Remainers try to perpetuate to justify the lack of logic in your position. One might just as easily say we are part of the American system but not in it but I don't see to many people crying out to be the 51st state.FF43 said:Brexit precisely means moving into outer orbit. Part of the system but not a participant in it. That's where Leavers are so wrong. All the contradictions of Brexit hang on this core fact. "Vote Leave to take control" was the biggest lie of them all.
Why can't we be another Canada?0 -
Same thing with Foxes. True foxes (Vulpini) or other "foxes" which happen to be Canini (such as the crab-eating fox) or Urocyon (such as the grey fox).kle4 said:
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.TudorRose said:
So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl
(thanks wikipedia)0 -
The real distinction is between wholesome healthy rural foxes and the manky mangy creatures that pass for foxes in London.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Same thing with Foxes. True foxes (Vulpini) or other "foxes" which happen to be Canini (such as the crab-eating fox) or Urocyon (such as the grey fox).kle4 said:
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.TudorRose said:
So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
So why did my ballot paper invite me to put a cross next to a statement saying 'Remain a member of the European Union'? And how would a new referendum ask the question differently if it means something different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl
(thanks wikipedia)0 -
If May loses the vote by the kind of majority that is being predicted she will have less authority than the Downing Street cat. It's hard to see how she could stay in those circumstances, there are bound to be Tories calling for her resignation and what defence could she offer?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Coming from yourself I know you did not literally mean for her to be knifed but best not to go there.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, if May loses as badly as expected then the Conservative should knife her like it's the ninth episode in a Game of Thrones season.
Mr. Cocque, one can assure you, the space cannon's ticket sales will be put to a good cause.
Edited extra bit: hmm. I did have a momentary wondering about changing the wording of the first paragraph. Some have recently gone overboard with such rhetoric, but hopefully the site trusts the sentiment (ie, stop faffing about and get it done. If it were done, best 'twere done quickly).
May clinging on after her deal was obliterated is unacceptable. Her authority would be in tatters.
If she stands firm, which I expect she will, only a successful vnoc from her party or labour will remove her and that does not look likely
That does not mean that when she reports back to the HOC within the 21 days anything could happen then0 -
I bet he likes the royalty cheque that arrives every July though.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)
0 -
I believe that there is a majority in Parliament for some form of deal - softer Brexit than currently being proposed. However, a majority of Tory MPs would be against this, and would be quick to get rid of May if she proposed it. Hence the parliamentary deadlock.
My solution: let Labour put forward a basis for renegotiation and all parties have a free vote on it. If the motion passes, Starmer catches the next Eurostar to Brussels.0 -
Only one - who replaces me while there is still a ticking clock to Brexit day?anothernick said:
If May loses the vote by the kind of majority that is being predicted she will have less authority than the Downing Street cat. It's hard to see how she could stay in those circumstances, there are bound to be Tories calling for her resignation and what defence could she offer?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Coming from yourself I know you did not literally mean for her to be knifed but best not to go there.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, if May loses as badly as expected then the Conservative should knife her like it's the ninth episode in a Game of Thrones season.
Mr. Cocque, one can assure you, the space cannon's ticket sales will be put to a good cause.
Edited extra bit: hmm. I did have a momentary wondering about changing the wording of the first paragraph. Some have recently gone overboard with such rhetoric, but hopefully the site trusts the sentiment (ie, stop faffing about and get it done. If it were done, best 'twere done quickly).
May clinging on after her deal was obliterated is unacceptable. Her authority would be in tatters.
If she stands firm, which I expect she will, only a successful vnoc from her party or labour will remove her and that does not look likely
That does not mean that when she reports back to the HOC within the 21 days anything could happen then
Her staying on is ridiculous. But the reason for her going seemingly being necessary is the party has not been able to unify behind a view on Brexit. They cannot under anyone, but could be closer to unity at least. So they need to figure out what they want to do, and yet cannot just wait a month to go back to the EU and parliament about what will be done in the interim.0 -
Yes, that would soften the annoyance somewhat ...rottenborough said:
I bet he likes the royalty cheque that arrives every July though.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)0 -
Found a BBC story that said rural foxes can live up to 15 years but most urban foxes only live for 2-3 years. Yikes.IanB2 said:
The real distinction is between wholesome healthy rural foxes and the manky mangy creatures that pass for foxes in London.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Same thing with Foxes. True foxes (Vulpini) or other "foxes" which happen to be Canini (such as the crab-eating fox) or Urocyon (such as the grey fox).kle4 said:
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.TudorRose said:
So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
Soething different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl
(thanks wikipedia)0 -
Yesdixiedean said:
Are you quite sure of that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.0 -
No more ridiculous that May trying to renegotiate.SandyRentool said:I believe that there is a majority in Parliament for some form of deal - softer Brexit than currently being proposed. However, a majority of Tory MPs would be against this, and would be quick to get rid of May if she proposed it. Hence the parliamentary deadlock.
My solution: let Labour put forward a basis for renegotiation and all parties have a free vote on it. If the motion passes, Starmer catches the next Eurostar to Brussels.0 -
The problem is that most conservative mps do not want Johnson anywhere near power and if she loses a vnoc there is a possibility he could get go the members vote. For that reason they will not open the dooranothernick said:
If May loses the vote by the kind of majority that is being predicted she will have less authority than the Downing Street cat. It's hard to see how she could stay in those circumstances, there are bound to be Tories calling for her resignation and what defence could she offer?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Coming from yourself I know you did not literally mean for her to be knifed but best not to go there.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, if May loses as badly as expected then the Conservative should knife her like it's the ninth episode in a Game of Thrones season.
Mr. Cocque, one can assure you, the space cannon's ticket sales will be put to a good cause.
Edited extra bit: hmm. I did have a momentary wondering about changing the wording of the first paragraph. Some have recently gone overboard with such rhetoric, but hopefully the site trusts the sentiment (ie, stop faffing about and get it done. If it were done, best 'twere done quickly).
May clinging on after her deal was obliterated is unacceptable. Her authority would be in tatters.
If she stands firm, which I expect she will, only a successful vnoc from her party or labour will remove her and that does not look likely
That does not mean that when she reports back to the HOC within the 21 days anything could happen then0 -
Eating out of dustbins and having to cross busy roads to get them are neither conducive to lengthy lives.kle4 said:
Found a BBC story that said rural foxes can live up to 15 years but most urban foxes only live for 2-3 years. Yikes.IanB2 said:
The real distinction is between wholesome healthy rural foxes and the manky mangy creatures that pass for foxes in London.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Same thing with Foxes. True foxes (Vulpini) or other "foxes" which happen to be Canini (such as the crab-eating fox) or Urocyon (such as the grey fox).kle4 said:
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.TudorRose said:
So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
Soething different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl
(thanks wikipedia)
0 -
You mean, it would be Christmas every July?JosiasJessop said:
Yes, that would soften the annoyance somewhat ...rottenborough said:
I bet he likes the royalty cheque that arrives every July though.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)0 -
To be polite - in your dreamsSandyRentool said:I believe that there is a majority in Parliament for some form of deal - softer Brexit than currently being proposed. However, a majority of Tory MPs would be against this, and would be quick to get rid of May if she proposed it. Hence the parliamentary deadlock.
My solution: let Labour put forward a basis for renegotiation and all parties have a free vote on it. If the motion passes, Starmer catches the next Eurostar to Brussels.0 -
He has clearly had decades to rue the bizarre notion of wishing it could be Christmas every day. Every day a bloody great turkey dinner, slumping down in front of the telly afterwards to watch HM the Q and then Star Wars. The rellies you really dislike turning up, every day. Every day, wearing a coloured crepe crown.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)
And the only presents you would get would be from the local garage, because the shops would all be shut. So I'm wondering when the hell he actually gets to buy that bloody turkey dinner..... But you'd have no money to buy turkeys and presents anyway, because nobody would have a job they could go to because the offices and factories would all be closed.
And just Wizard, Slade and The Pogues to listen to.
He really hadn't thought it through. Not at all.0 -
"I wish it would be that day every July when the royalty cheque drops on the doormat," probably wouldn't have been such a hit ...IanB2 said:
You mean, it would be Christmas every July?JosiasJessop said:
Yes, that would soften the annoyance somewhat ...rottenborough said:
I bet he likes the royalty cheque that arrives every July though.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)
Edit: but apparently the original isn't doing him much good:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2875489/Christmas-day-Not-vanishing-Royalties-says-Roy-Wood.html0 -
At least TM knows the subjectkle4 said:
No more ridiculous that May trying to renegotiate.SandyRentool said:I believe that there is a majority in Parliament for some form of deal - softer Brexit than currently being proposed. However, a majority of Tory MPs would be against this, and would be quick to get rid of May if she proposed it. Hence the parliamentary deadlock.
My solution: let Labour put forward a basis for renegotiation and all parties have a free vote on it. If the motion passes, Starmer catches the next Eurostar to Brussels.0 -
Why is that ? There is a lot of speculation today, that members of the cabinet are advising May to do just that.AlastairMeeks said:
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
0 -
There is no alternative, get rid of me and risk Boris or a No Dealer like Raab or Davis and she is absolutely rightanothernick said:
If May loses the vote by the kind of majority that is being predicted she will have less authority than the Downing Street cat. It's hard to see how she could stay in those circumstances, there are bound to be Tories calling for her resignation and what defence could she offer?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Coming from yourself I know you did not literally mean for her to be knifed but best not to go there.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, if May loses as badly as expected then the Conservative should knife her like it's the ninth episode in a Game of Thrones season.
Mr. Cocque, one can assure you, the space cannon's ticket sales will be put to a good cause.
Edited extra bit: hmm. I did have a momentary wondering about changing the wording of the first paragraph. Some have recently gone overboard with such rhetoric, but hopefully the site trusts the sentiment (ie, stop faffing about and get it done. If it were done, best 'twere done quickly).
May clinging on after her deal was obliterated is unacceptable. Her authority would be in tatters.
If she stands firm, which I expect she will, only a successful vnoc from her party or labour will remove her and that does not look likely
That does not mean that when she reports back to the HOC within the 21 days anything could happen then0 -
It has to have a vote in the HOC to approve itYorkcity said:
Why is that ? There is a lot of speculation today, that members of the cabinet are advising May to do just that.AlastairMeeks said:
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
0 -
I think it is on the order paper now, so can only be pulled by, er, a vote of MPs.....Yorkcity said:
Why is that ? There is a lot of speculation today, that members of the cabinet are advising May to do just that.AlastairMeeks said:
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
0 -
Fair enough. That makes you and @HYUFD. What do other Conservatives think? I cannot see how, after leading a record defeat in the House on the govts only policy, that, in a secret ballot, she wins enough support. In that scenario will enough Tory MPs really think, what we desperately need, right now, is 12 more months of this?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yesdixiedean said:
Are you quite sure of that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.
Am prepared to be proved wrong, and am genuinely interested.0 -
A vision of post-Brexit life.IanB2 said:
Eating out of dustbins and having to cross busy roads to get them are neither conducive to lengthy lives.kle4 said:
Found a BBC story that said rural foxes can live up to 15 years but most urban foxes only live for 2-3 years. Yikes.IanB2 said:
The real distinction is between wholesome healthy rural foxes and the manky mangy creatures that pass for foxes in London.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Same thing with Foxes. True foxes (Vulpini) or other "foxes" which happen to be Canini (such as the crab-eating fox) or Urocyon (such as the grey fox).kle4 said:
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.TudorRose said:
So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
Soething different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.
(thanks wikipedia)0 -
LOL. Excellent!MarqueeMark said:
He has clearly had decades to rue the bizarre notion of wishing it could be Christmas every day. Every day a bloody great turkey dinner, slumping down in front of the telly afterwards to watch HM the Q and then Star Wars. The rellies you really dislike turning up, every day. Every day, wearing a coloured crepe crown.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)
And the only presents you would get would be from the local garage, because the shops would all be shut. So I'm wondering when the hell he actually gets to buy that bloody turkey dinner..... But you'd have no money to buy turkeys and presents anyway, because nobody would have a job they could go to because the offices and factories would all be closed.
And just Wizard, Slade and The Pogues to listen to.
He really hadn't thought it through. Not at all.0 -
And that is why a vnoc now is unwise and really silly. I do not want TM locked in for another 12 months as I am looking for a leadership campaign in the Spring with her standing down thendixiedean said:
Fair enough. That makes you and @HYUFD. What do other Conservatives think? I cannot see how, after leading a record defeat in the House on the govts only policy, that, in a secret ballot, she wins enough support. In that scenario will enough Tory MPs really think, what we desperately need, right now, is 12 more months of this?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yesdixiedean said:
Are you quite sure of that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.
Am prepared to be proved wrong, and am genuinely interested.0 -
Most Tory MPs do not want No Deal, if they get rid of May if Boris or a No Dealer like Raab or Davis gets to the final two they likely win the membership vote, hence getting rid of May is too big a risk. EUref2 actually may be more likely than May going based on today's newsdixiedean said:
Fair enough. That makes you and @HYUFD. What do other Conservatives think? I cannot see how, after leading a record defeat in the House on the govts only policy, that, in a secret ballot, she wins enough support. In that scenario will enough Tory MPs really think, what we desperately need, right now, is 12 more months of this?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yesdixiedean said:
Are you quite sure of that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.
Am prepared to be proved wrong, and am genuinely interested.0 -
Only in London.AlastairMeeks said:
A vision of post-Brexit life.IanB2 said:
Eating out of dustbins and having to cross busy roads to get them are neither conducive to lengthy lives.kle4 said:
Found a BBC story that said rural foxes can live up to 15 years but most urban foxes only live for 2-3 years. Yikes.IanB2 said:
The real distinction is between wholesome healthy rural foxes and the manky mangy creatures that pass for foxes in London.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Same thing with Foxes. True foxes (Vulpini) or other "foxes" which happen to be Canini (such as the crab-eating fox) or Urocyon (such as the grey fox).kle4 said:
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.TudorRose said:
So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
Soething different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.
(thanks wikipedia)0 -
Indeed, it's been scheduled by a programme motion. If Mrs Leadsom were to move a second programme motion to remove it from the order paper, I think the house would press her to a division and she would lose.MarqueeMark said:
I think it is on the order paper now, so can only be pulled by, er, a vote of MPs.....Yorkcity said:
Why is that ? There is a lot of speculation today, that members of the cabinet are advising May to do just that.AlastairMeeks said:
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
The vote is happening. It must happen. It's a fixed point in time.0 -
Others have answered this but here’s the New Statesman’s explanation:Yorkcity said:
Why is that ? There is a lot of speculation today, that members of the cabinet are advising May to do just that.AlastairMeeks said:
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/12/even-if-theresa-may-wants-delay-meaningful-vote-she-cant0 -
His royalty cheques would never clear either. As there would never be 5 working days. Muppet.MarqueeMark said:
He has clearly had decades to rue the bizarre notion of wishing it could be Christmas every day. Every day a bloody great turkey dinner, slumping down in front of the telly afterwards to watch HM the Q and then Star Wars. The rellies you really dislike turning up, every day. Every day, wearing a coloured crepe crown.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)
And the only presents you would get would be from the local garage, because the shops would all be shut. So I'm wondering when the hell he actually gets to buy that bloody turkey dinner..... But you'd have no money to buy turkeys and presents anyway, because nobody would have a job they could go to because the offices and factories would all be closed.
And just Wizard, Slade and The Pogues to listen to.
He really hadn't thought it through. Not at all.0 -
Also how does that work when the bowler hats sing 'Every day is the 12th of July'? We need some consistency here.MarqueeMark said:
He has clearly had decades to rue the bizarre notion of wishing it could be Christmas every day. Every day a bloody great turkey dinner, slumping down in front of the telly afterwards to watch HM the Q and then Star Wars. The rellies you really dislike turning up, every day. Every day, wearing a coloured crepe crown.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)
And the only presents you would get would be from the local garage, because the shops would all be shut. So I'm wondering when the hell he actually gets to buy that bloody turkey dinner..... But you'd have no money to buy turkeys and presents anyway, because nobody would have a job they could go to because the offices and factories would all be closed.
And just Wizard, Slade and The Pogues to listen to.
He really hadn't thought it through. Not at all.0 -
People say now what they need to say. Reality hits on Tuesday.dixiedean said:
Fair enough. That makes you and @HYUFD. What do other Conservatives think? I cannot see how, after leading a record defeat in the House on the govts only policy, that, in a secret ballot, she wins enough support. In that scenario will enough Tory MPs really think, what we desperately need, right now, is 12 more months of this?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yesdixiedean said:
Are you quite sure of that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.
Am prepared to be proved wrong, and am genuinely interested.
If this deal goes down to a record defeat then a new deal will be needed. If May acknowledges that then she can be given one last chance. If she insists nothing has changed she will need to go.0 -
And we all thought that getting Gordon Brown out of Downing St, after he lost an election, was tricky. It looks like Mrs May could give Gordon lessons in How To Ignore Your Own UnpopularityBig_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
0 -
We both agree on this. It is the catalyst that everything else flows fromgrabcocque said:
Indeed, it's been scheduled by a program motion. If Mrs Leadsom were to move a second program motion to remove it from the order paper, I think the house would press her to a division and she would lose.MarqueeMark said:
I think it is on the order paper now, so can only be pulled by, er, a vote of MPs.....Yorkcity said:
Why is that ? There is a lot of speculation today, that members of the cabinet are advising May to do just that.AlastairMeeks said:
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
The vote is happening. It must happen. It's a fixed point in time.0 -
You say that, but she's proven to be something of a political cockroach. I fully expect her to transform into mecha-May and lay waste to the ERG backbenchers.Philip_Thompson said:
People say now what they need to say. Reality hits on Tuesday.dixiedean said:
Fair enough. That makes you and @HYUFD. What do other Conservatives think? I cannot see how, after leading a record defeat in the House on the govts only policy, that, in a secret ballot, she wins enough support. In that scenario will enough Tory MPs really think, what we desperately need, right now, is 12 more months of this?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yesdixiedean said:
Are you quite sure of that?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And she will win that vote in her party and have 12 more monthsSandyRentool said:
So May stands up after the vote and says 'Nothing has Changed', and the next day well over 48 letters arrive calling for the VONC in her leadership.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Let the Tories clear up their own mess.
Am prepared to be proved wrong, and am genuinely interested.
If this deal goes down to a record defeat then a new deal will be needed. If May acknowledges that then she can be given one last chance. If she insists nothing has changed she will need to go.0 -
A 'bloody difficult woman' comes to mindBeverley_C said:
And we all thought that getting Gordon Brown out of Downing St, after he lost an election, was tricky. It looks like Mrs May could give Gordon lessons in How To Ignore Your Own UnpopularityBig_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Actually she is not that unpopular. Last time I checked she was 35/24 v Corbyn0 -
They shouldn’t. We need a list of those not fit to be PM. It looks like a long one but those who vote against May’s deal are people who think their own self image and self importance comes ahead of the national interest. That is useful information.AlastairMeeks said:
I don’t think the government can pull the vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
0 -
I may need to adjust my lifestyle in that case.IanB2 said:
Eating out of dustbins and having to cross busy roads to get them are neither conducive to lengthy lives.kle4 said:
Found as. Yikes.IanB2 said:
The real distinction is between wholesome healthy rural foxes and the manky mangy creatures that pass for foxes in London.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Same thing with Foxes. True foxes (Vulpini) or other "foxes" which happen to be Canini (such as the crab-eating fox) or Urocyon (such as the grey fox).kle4 said:
I believe in Owls but are talking Tytonidae or Strigidae? If there is not clarity we may need to rerun this vote.TudorRose said:
So the second referendum is basically 'Do you believe in free owls or unicorns?'kle4 said:
As is well known we are a net contributor of owls.RobD said:
The opposite, we'll be subsidising free owls for the rest of the EU.grabcocque said:
Free owls?David_Evershed said:
We don't know what Reamin would have in store for the UK.TudorRose said:
So 'remain' is just as movable a feast as 'leave'...?RobD said:
It was remain in the EU taking int account the renegotiation Cameron signed. That's now off the table.TudorRose said:
Soething different?eek said:
I will repeat my post of earlier today - the last referendum did not offer remain it offered Cameron’s deal or leave.David_Evershed said:
We have already had the Remain versus leave referendum so we should go straight to May Deal or No Deal.HYUFD said:The Sunday Times reports Deputy PM David Lidington and Justice Secretary David Gauke after talks with Labour MPs have concluded there is more support for EUref2 than a Norway-style deal if May's Deal fails.
Civil servants are now also openly wargaming two EU referendum questions as EUref2 becomes more likely. The first would be a straight choice between May's Deal and Remain, the second would see a Leave v Remain question and if Leave won a second question would ask them if they wanted to leave under the terms of May's Deal or under a No Deal departure on WTO terms.
17 Labour MPs also reportedly in talks about breaking away from the Labour Party if Corbyn fails to back EUref2
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-to-handbag-brussels-in-frantic-bid-to-save-brexit-deal-bbcq7n5kl
(thanks wikipedia)0 -
So as they would say in the X factor its deadlock and they will go to the Public VoteBig_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
0 -
I always have this vision of Noddy Holder getting his cheque in July and immediately going online to see what lovely warm foreign resort he is going to spend Christmas in.rottenborough said:
I bet he likes the royalty cheque that arrives every July though.JosiasJessop said:Way off-topic:
My mum keeps on bumping into Roy Wood, of Wizzard and ELO fame, in the pub. Apparently he doesn't like it when 'I wish it could be Christmas everyday' comes on, and doesn't like it when teenagers sing it near him.
(He's apparently a very nice chap though.)0 -
Corbyn is an unmitigated ass. Personally I do not care for either of them.Big_G_NorthWales said:
A 'bloody difficult woman' comes to mindBeverley_C said:
And we all thought that getting Gordon Brown out of Downing St, after he lost an election, was tricky. It looks like Mrs May could give Gordon lessons in How To Ignore Your Own UnpopularityBig_G_NorthWales said:BBC just reported that TM will not pull the vote and will not stand down. Furthermore they said that labour have decided not to vnoc the government as the DUP have told them they will support HMG
Actually she is not that unpopular. Last time I checked she was 35/24 v Corbyn0
