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I'm trying to work out what the ERG and DUP's post-MV plan actually is.
I guess it's to use whatever procedural and parliamentary obstruction they can find to filibuster Parliament's attempts to agree a Plan B for three and a half months, so we crash out of the EU with no deal and against the settled will of a huge majority in Parliament?
If that's the case, I find the breathtaking arrogance and maliciousness of the idea really quite something.0 -
The DUP backed Leave in the first place, they are not going to take Remain. However I think it could get over the line anyway even without the DUP thanks to Labour Leave MPs, the divisions amongst Tory MPs are on Deal v No Deal lines, hardly any are diehard RemainersAllyPally_Rob said:
Zero chance they'd ever let that choice get anywhere near the public. The DUP would take Remain over May's deal if it came down to it, because it means no divergence between GB & NI which is their sole red line.HYUFD said:
Yes, they would argue strongly for No Deal in the referendum in Northern IrelandAllyPally_Rob said:
You honestly think the DUP would vote to put THIS Deal to the electorate???!HYUFD said:
Wrong, YouGov had 41% of Tory voters backing the Deal and 39% backing No Deal today and they are the governing party, barely any Tories now still back Remain and no more than a handful of Tory MPs either. Add in the DUP who backed Leave in the first place and would back No Deal and Labour Leavers like Hoey, Mann, Stringer, Field and Skinner and there is probably just about a Commons majority for a Deal v No Deal referendum if May were to consider it as a last resortNigelb said:
Your argument is persuading only yourself.HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There is no way in which a referendum will get through parliament without some Labour support, and to imagine that they will sign off on a vote between two choices they strenuously oppose is the sheerest fantasy.
If a majority in both parliament and the country would want remain on a referendum ballot paper, then your argument from principle is nonsense, too.
Is that your 2nd or 3rd bottle of Blue Nun tonight?!0 -
Your extrapolation of polling evidence is unique and quite frankly remarkable.HYUFD said:
Yes, they would argue strongly for No Deal in the referendum in Northern IrelandAllyPally_Rob said:
You honestly think the DUP would vote to put THIS Deal to the electorate???!HYUFD said:
Wrong, YouGov had 41% of Tory voters backing the Deal and 39% backing No Deal today and they are the governing party, barely any Tories now still back Remain and no more than a handful of Tory MPs either. Add in the DUP who backed Leave in the first place and would back No Deal and Labour Leavers like Hoey, Mann, Stringer, Field and Skinner and there is probably just about a Commons majority for a Deal v No Deal referendum if May were to consider it as a last resortNigelb said:
Your argument is persuading only yourself.HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There is no way in which a referendum will get through parliament without some Labour support, and to imagine that they will sign off on a vote between two choices they strenuously oppose is the sheerest fantasy.
If a majority in both parliament and the country would want remain on a referendum ballot paper, then your argument from principle is nonsense, too.
Is that your 2nd or 3rd bottle of Blue Nun tonight?!0 -
I wouldn't be so sure that their plan is no have no deal. I think they are hoping for a referendum which they think they will win. Or if they lose they will put a hard leaver in charge of the Conservative Party and sweep to power at the General Election. Or that's what they think.grabcocque said:I'm trying to work out what the ERG and DUP's post-MV plan actually is.
I guess it's to use whatever procedural and parliamentary obstruction they can find to filibuster Parliament's attempts to agree a Plan B for three and a half months, so we crash out of the EU with no deal and against the settled will of a huge majority in Parliament?
If that's the case, I find the breathtaking arrogance and maliciousness of the idea really quite something.0 -
On Topic. Happy memories of my most profitable ever 24 hrs0
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No, as far from odds-on (for remain) as you can get would be Remain 0%, Leave 100%HYUFD said:
YouGov today had it Remain 50% Leave with Deal 50%. So about as far from odds-on as you can get!edmundintokyo said:
Who are you talking about who's confident about round 2? The only strong Remain prediction I've seen has been from Richard Nabavi, who premises it on it being Remain vs Deal, after most of the Leave side rubbishes the Deal.houndtang said:Incredible given how that night went down that Remainders are so confident about round two.
I think Remain would be odds-on, but the polling is a little bit ambiguous, the turnout could go anywhere, and referendums are unpredictable at the best of times.0 -
I think that certainly applies to the ERG, but I'm less sure about the DUP. I think they'd go for any option that doesn't include the backstop to be honest, including if push came to shove Remaining in the EU.grabcocque said:I'm trying to work out what the ERG and DUP's post-MV plan actually is.
I guess it's to use whatever procedural and parliamentary obstruction they can find to filibuster Parliament's attempts to agree a Plan B for three and a half months, so we crash out of the EU with no deal and against the settled will of a huge majority in Parliament?
If that's the case, I find the breathtaking arrogance and maliciousness of the idea really quite something.0 -
If you believe it is a choice between sanity and insanity you would not want a vote which would, once again, risk insanity. You should want parliament to do it, otherwise it would be taking a huge gamble for the sake of a mandate which is not needed, if the choice is between sanity and insanity as you suggest. Why would you possibly endorse the possibility of insanity winning? How incredibly reckless.Foxy said:
While that is true* of many Leavers, it is not universally so.Floater said:
They know best you knowhoundtang said:Incredible given how that night went down that Remainders are so confident about round two.
Leavers are as thick as planks and xenophobic too - they keep telling us this.
Nonetheless a #Peoplesvote does at least give the opportunity for sanity to win. While some will be intransigent, a fair number of Leavers can switch to Remain.
*as reproducibly found in polling.0 -
The polling evidence is clear, Remain on the ballot solves NOTHING. Remain 50% Deal 50% with YouGov today, Remain 52% No Deal 48% (Deltapoll has it No Deal 52% Remain 48%) ie if Remain goes on the ballot we remain just as divided as ever.Mexicanpete said:
Your extrapolation of polling evidence is unique and quite frankly remarkable.HYUFD said:
Yes, they would argue strongly for No Deal in the referendum in Northern IrelandAllyPally_Rob said:
You honestly think the DUP would vote to put THIS Deal to the electorate???!HYUFD said:
Wrong, YouGov had 41% of Tory voters backing the Deal and 39% backing No Deal today and they are the governing party, barely any Tories now still back Remain and no more than a handful of Tory MPs either. Add in the DUP who backed Leave in the first place and would back No Deal and Labour Leavers like Hoey, Mann, Stringer, Field and Skinner and there is probably just about a Commons majority for a Deal v No Deal referendum if May were to consider it as a last resortNigelb said:
Your argument is persuading only yourself.HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There is no way in which a referendum will get through parliament without some Labour support, and to imagine that they will sign off on a vote between two choices they strenuously oppose is the sheerest fantasy.
If a majority in both parliament and the country would want remain on a referendum ballot paper, then your argument from principle is nonsense, too.
Is that your 2nd or 3rd bottle of Blue Nun tonight?!
The ONLY way to settle this is Deal v No Deal where Deal trounces No Deal 62% to 38% with YouGov and also leads by double figures with Deltapoll. If there is a referendum it should ONLY be on the method of leaving, Remain was defeated in 2016 by Leave and should have been knocked out as an option then0 -
A coin toss is fine by me. It is a one way bet. If Remain lose then we are no worse off.edmundintokyo said:
No, as far from odds-on (for remain) as you can get would be Remain 0%, Leave 100%HYUFD said:
YouGov today had it Remain 50% Leave with Deal 50%. So about as far from odds-on as you can get!edmundintokyo said:
Who are you talking about who's confident about round 2? The only strong Remain prediction I've seen has been from Richard Nabavi, who premises it on it being Remain vs Deal, after most of the Leave side rubbishes the Deal.houndtang said:Incredible given how that night went down that Remainders are so confident about round two.
I think Remain would be odds-on, but the polling is a little bit ambiguous, the turnout could go anywhere, and referendums are unpredictable at the best of times.
Exactly the same reason that Leavers get apoplectic about it.0 -
For once, I agree with you.grabcocque said:I'm trying to work out what the ERG and DUP's post-MV plan actually is.
I guess it's to use whatever procedural and parliamentary obstruction they can find to filibuster Parliament's attempts to agree a Plan B for three and a half months, so we crash out of the EU with no deal and against the settled will of a huge majority in Parliament?
If that's the case, I find the breathtaking arrogance and maliciousness of the idea really quite something.
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I don't know about anyone else, but I find it difficult to bet on things where I really care about the outcome.bigjohnowls said:On Topic. Happy memories of my most profitable ever 24 hrs
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Can't really do worse than your lot.Foxy said:
I am happy to see what they can come up with.HYUFD said:
Labour have not got a clue what their 'People's Brexit' is though, if Corbyn finds himself PM having to negotiate Brexit he will be a rabbit in the headlights when his guffe of unicorns and flying pigs to hit the Tories with has to actually be implementedFoxy said:
Quite right too. If we Remain, PM Jezza has limited room for manoeuvre, and if we Leave then a People's Brexit under Jezza and John is preferable to a bonfire of rights and protections under the Tories.HYUFD said:
Most Remoaners are voting for Corbyn anywayAmpfieldAndy said:As a Leaver my preference is a Canada type deal first, then no deal, Norway type deal. no Brexit and finally May’s deal.
Because HoC are a bunch of winps who care nothing for Britain but just want to get paid for doing what Brussels tells them to do, I suspect we’ll end up with no Brexit and a Corbyn Gov which is exactly what the Remoaners deserve.
I will be voting LD or Green though.0 -
Insanity is the default. A 50% chance of recovery is better than none.kle4 said:
If you believe it is a choice between sanity and insanity you would not want a vote which would, once again, risk insanity. You should want parliament to do it, otherwise it would be taking a huge gamble for the sake of a mandate which is not needed, if the choice is between sanity and insanity as you suggest. Why would you possibly endorse the possibility of insanity winning? How incredibly reckless.Foxy said:
While that is true* of many Leavers, it is not universally so.Floater said:
They know best you knowhoundtang said:Incredible given how that night went down that Remainders are so confident about round two.
Leavers are as thick as planks and xenophobic too - they keep telling us this.
Nonetheless a #Peoplesvote does at least give the opportunity for sanity to win. While some will be intransigent, a fair number of Leavers can switch to Remain.
*as reproducibly found in polling.0 -
Which they won't be able to do thanks to the Grieve amendment which means the Letwin and Morgan amendment for Customs Union and Single Market will also be on the cards if May cannot get her deal through. That of course would satisfy the DUP as despite being BINO would apply to the whole UK not just Northern Ireland but would infuriate most Leavers almost as much as Remain, just as No Deal would infuriate most Remainersgrabcocque said:I'm trying to work out what the ERG and DUP's post-MV plan actually is.
I guess it's to use whatever procedural and parliamentary obstruction they can find to filibuster Parliament's attempts to agree a Plan B for three and a half months, so we crash out of the EU with no deal and against the settled will of a huge majority in Parliament?
If that's the case, I find the breathtaking arrogance and maliciousness of the idea really quite something.0 -
Problem is, if it was the settled will of Parliament to do anything and everything possible to avoid no deal they would take the only option on the table to prevent this happening - ie. back the deal.Nigelb said:
For once, I agree with you.grabcocque said:I'm trying to work out what the ERG and DUP's post-MV plan actually is.
I guess it's to use whatever procedural and parliamentary obstruction they can find to filibuster Parliament's attempts to agree a Plan B for three and a half months, so we crash out of the EU with no deal and against the settled will of a huge majority in Parliament?
If that's the case, I find the breathtaking arrogance and maliciousness of the idea really quite something.0 -
They can, Corbyn wants permanent Customs Union, not temporary Customs Union like Maybigjohnowls said:
Can't really do worse than your lot.Foxy said:
I am happy to see what they can come up with.HYUFD said:
Labour have not got a clue what their 'People's Brexit' is though, if Corbyn finds himself PM having to negotiate Brexit he will be a rabbit in the headlights when his guffe of unicorns and flying pigs to hit the Tories with has to actually be implementedFoxy said:
Quite right too. If we Remain, PM Jezza has limited room for manoeuvre, and if we Leave then a People's Brexit under Jezza and John is preferable to a bonfire of rights and protections under the Tories.HYUFD said:
Most Remoaners are voting for Corbyn anywayAmpfieldAndy said:As a Leaver my preference is a Canada type deal first, then no deal, Norway type deal. no Brexit and finally May’s deal.
Because HoC are a bunch of winps who care nothing for Britain but just want to get paid for doing what Brussels tells them to do, I suspect we’ll end up with no Brexit and a Corbyn Gov which is exactly what the Remoaners deserve.
I will be voting LD or Green though.0 -
Fine by me, though Single Market membership is better.HYUFD said:
They can, Corbyn wants permanent Customs Union, not temporary Customs Union like Maybigjohnowls said:
Can't really do worse than your lot.Foxy said:
I am happy to see what they can come up with.HYUFD said:
Labour have not got a clue what their 'People's Brexit' is though, if Corbyn finds himself PM having to negotiate Brexit he will be a rabbit in the headlights when his guffe of unicorns and flying pigs to hit the Tories with has to actually be implementedFoxy said:
Quite right too. If we Remain, PM Jezza has limited room for manoeuvre, and if we Leave then a People's Brexit under Jezza and John is preferable to a bonfire of rights and protections under the Tories.HYUFD said:
Most Remoaners are voting for Corbyn anywayAmpfieldAndy said:As a Leaver my preference is a Canada type deal first, then no deal, Norway type deal. no Brexit and finally May’s deal.
Because HoC are a bunch of winps who care nothing for Britain but just want to get paid for doing what Brussels tells them to do, I suspect we’ll end up with no Brexit and a Corbyn Gov which is exactly what the Remoaners deserve.
I will be voting LD or Green though.0 -
My profit was approx £1750. I took it in cash. Mmm, the smell of £50 notes in the morning...AlastairMeeks said:One of my best ever nights for betting wins thanks to the amazing @AndyJS
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HYUFD seems to have been reprogrammed after a few days of lucidity last week.0
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Corbyn is opposed to full Single Market membership, as far as I can see the only difference between his Brexit and May's is he wants to make the Customs Union permanent not temporary and add a bit more guff about adopting EU workers' regulationsFoxy said:
Fine by me, though Single Market membership is better.HYUFD said:
They can, Corbyn wants permanent Customs Union, not temporary Customs Union like Maybigjohnowls said:
Can't really do worse than your lot.Foxy said:
I am happy to see what they can come up with.HYUFD said:
Labour have not got a clue what their 'People's Brexit' is though, if Corbyn finds himself PM having to negotiate Brexit he will be a rabbit in the headlights when his guffe of unicorns and flying pigs to hit the Tories with has to actually be implementedFoxy said:
Quite right too. If we Remain, PM Jezza has limited room for manoeuvre, and if we Leave then a People's Brexit under Jezza and John is preferable to a bonfire of rights and protections under the Tories.HYUFD said:
Most Remoaners are voting for Corbyn anywayAmpfieldAndy said:As a Leaver my preference is a Canada type deal first, then no deal, Norway type deal. no Brexit and finally May’s deal.
Because HoC are a bunch of winps who care nothing for Britain but just want to get paid for doing what Brussels tells them to do, I suspect we’ll end up with no Brexit and a Corbyn Gov which is exactly what the Remoaners deserve.
I will be voting LD or Green though.0 -
I have always said I prefer Deal to Remain and No Deal but would vote for Remain over No Dealwilliamglenn said:HYUFD seems to have been reprogrammed after a few days of lucidity last week.
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This must have been discussed earlier on PB, although I missed it.
"Stephen Lloyd resigns over Brexit deal: Lib Dem MP quits party whip because he wants to back Theresa May"
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/liberal-democrat-mp-resigns-party-whip-over-brexit-because-he-wants-to-back-theresa-mays-deal-a4010556.html0 -
Which they may well do. After a couple of months , if nowt turns up.alex. said:
Problem is, if it was the settled will of Parliament to do anything and everything possible to avoid no deal they would take the only option on the table to prevent this happening - ie. back the deal.Nigelb said:
For once, I agree with you.grabcocque said:I'm trying to work out what the ERG and DUP's post-MV plan actually is.
I guess it's to use whatever procedural and parliamentary obstruction they can find to filibuster Parliament's attempts to agree a Plan B for three and a half months, so we crash out of the EU with no deal and against the settled will of a huge majority in Parliament?
If that's the case, I find the breathtaking arrogance and maliciousness of the idea really quite something.0 -
Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week0
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Liz Kendall.HYUFD said:Liz Truss comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizen's Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
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If people want a higher value for sterling they need to:viewcode said:
The planet full of people who are paid too much.alex. said:And David Davis is quoted as saying that a further depreciation in the £ post no deal Brexit would be no bad thing. I mean, what planet is this idiot on?.
Create more wealth
Live within their means
Increase their saving rate
what people actually want to do though is:
Consume more wealth
Live to the standard they think they are entitled to
Increase their spending rate0 -
I didn't work this out until later, but I think one of the online currency converters would still give you £1=$1.48 at about 3-4am, even though GBP had fallen from about £1=$1:50 at 11pm to about £1=$1.35 at about 4am. A guaranteed profit, even considering conversion costs. Damn, damn, damn...IanB2 said:As it happened I...did very well spreadbetting the falling £.
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Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.0 -
Fuck up and blame the EU?grabcocque said:I'm trying to work out what the ERG and DUP's post-MV plan actually is.
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I know. I agree with you. I just don't like it...another_richard said:
If people want a higher value for sterling they need to:viewcode said:
The planet full of people who are paid too much.alex. said:And David Davis is quoted as saying that a further depreciation in the £ post no deal Brexit would be no bad thing. I mean, what planet is this idiot on?.
Create more wealth
Live within their means
Increase their saving rate
what people actually want to do though is:
Consume more wealth
Live to the standard they think they are entitled to
Increase their spending rate 0 -
HYUFD
I was referring to your general interpretation of polling evidence, although this example is no exception. You may well have a gift and you may well be right. I am not sure I see the evidence for your conclusions even after you have explained them to me.0 -
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.0 -
The impasse is on how we leave not whether we should leave. That was decided in 2016.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.0 -
It does make it difficult to objectively consider the evidence. I find if you split your bet into smaller bets and place them gradually, rather than BIG SUMS NOW, it makes things a bit easier. There is also insurance betting to hedge against a loss, which I find less traumatic.AndyJS said:
I don't know about anyone else, but I find it difficult to bet on things where I really care about the outcome.bigjohnowls said:On Topic. Happy memories of my most profitable ever 24 hrs
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Pretty much, we are now beyond the parody stage!alex. said:
A referendum to decide the questions that should be put in a referendum?HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
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So the choice is a) Vassal state or b) Train wreck?Norm said:
The impasse is on how we leave not whether we should leave. That was decided in 2016.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.0 -
Radical views are alive and well at Cambridge University:
"Lower voting age to six to tackle bias against young, says academic
Prof David Runciman says ageing population is creating a democratic crisis
The head of politics at Cambridge University has called for children as young as six to be given the vote in an attempt to tackle the age bias in modern democracy."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/06/give-six-year-olds-the-vote-says-cambridge-university-academic0 -
No, it's worse. It's an assembly of the public to decide the questions to be put in a referendum to be answered by the public. It's magnificent, in a way. A MP has finally worked out how to outsource her entire job. I'd be impressed if it wasn't so wrong.alex. said:
A referendum to decide the questions that should be put in a referendum?HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
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The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
I propose a referendum to decide whether we decide the questions .alex. said:
A referendum to decide the questions that should be put in a referendum?HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
0 -
Do you back de-selection of any Tory who votes against the deal?Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
Exactly right. They are doing everything they can to make sure the spotlight looks elsewhere because their position is despicable if it shines on them.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.0 -
The Right Honorable Peppa Pig, PC, MP...AndyJS said:Radical views are alive and well at Cambridge University:
"Lower voting age to six to tackle bias against young, says academic
Prof David Runciman says ageing population is creating a democratic crisis
The head of politics at Cambridge University has called for children as young as six to be given the vote in an attempt to tackle the age bias in modern democracy."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/06/give-six-year-olds-the-vote-says-cambridge-university-academic 0 -
Out of office? Since when were they in office, does that mean Corbyn is now PM?Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
They aren't in Office .God forbid the opposition should oppose .Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
Leicester - Belgrave
Lab 5477
Con 412
LD 238
Green 199
Lab hold
Oxford - Wolvercote
Lib Dem 998
Con 404
Lab 162
Green 86
LD Hold
0 -
We didn't have a second referendum after 1975. Pro-EU votes get accepted. Anti-EU votes get stonewalled.Foxy said:
A coin toss is fine by me. It is a one way bet. If Remain lose then we are no worse off.edmundintokyo said:
No, as far from odds-on (for remain) as you can get would be Remain 0%, Leave 100%HYUFD said:
YouGov today had it Remain 50% Leave with Deal 50%. So about as far from odds-on as you can get!edmundintokyo said:
Who are you talking about who's confident about round 2? The only strong Remain prediction I've seen has been from Richard Nabavi, who premises it on it being Remain vs Deal, after most of the Leave side rubbishes the Deal.houndtang said:Incredible given how that night went down that Remainders are so confident about round two.
I think Remain would be odds-on, but the polling is a little bit ambiguous, the turnout could go anywhere, and referendums are unpredictable at the best of times.
Exactly the same reason that Leavers get apoplectic about it.0 -
They are supposed to be a government in waiting. What is their plan for implementing the result? How would their deal be different? All we get is fantasies and lies from them.dixiedean said:
They aren't in Office .God forbid the opposition should oppose .Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
In office as MPs. Your MP has an office, you know.Mexicanpete said:
Out of office? Since when were they in office, does that mean Corbyn is now PM?Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
I take the LRB so I aleady knew Runciman is a cretin.AndyJS said:Radical views are alive and well at Cambridge University:
"Lower voting age to six to tackle bias against young, says academic
Prof David Runciman says ageing population is creating a democratic crisis
The head of politics at Cambridge University has called for children as young as six to be given the vote in an attempt to tackle the age bias in modern democracy."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/06/give-six-year-olds-the-vote-says-cambridge-university-academic0 -
He does, he is Secretary of State for Wales.Theo said:
In office as MPs. Your MP has an office, you know.Mexicanpete said:
Out of office? Since when were they in office, does that mean Corbyn is now PM?Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
We've had 2 years of a whopping lie from May saying "No Prime Minister could agree to a customs border down the Irish Sea" then putting forward an agreement that does exactly that. Don't be so selective with your criticism.Theo said:
They are supposed to be a government in waiting. What is their plan for implementing the result? How would their deal be different? All we get is fantasies and lies from them.dixiedean said:
They aren't in Office .God forbid the opposition should oppose .Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
As I said to @HYUFD earlier .We are past the supposed or should stage. If a Government can't carry 90% of its own MPs then it can't place blame elsewhere .Theo said:
They are supposed to be a government in waiting. What is their plan for implementing the result? How would their deal be different? All we get is fantasies and lies from them.dixiedean said:
They aren't in Office .God forbid the opposition should oppose .Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
For oppositions sake?dixiedean said:
They aren't in Office .God forbid the opposition should oppose .Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
+1viewcode said:
It does make it difficult to objectively consider the evidence. I find if you split your bet into smaller bets and place them gradually, rather than BIG SUMS NOW, it makes things a bit easier. There is also insurance betting to hedge against a loss, which I find less traumatic.AndyJS said:
I don't know about anyone else, but I find it difficult to bet on things where I really care about the outcome.bigjohnowls said:On Topic. Happy memories of my most profitable ever 24 hrs
0 -
William will never accept thatNorm said:
The impasse is on how we leave not whether we should leave. That was decided in 2016.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
He is very pro EU and approves of the EU tactic of making them vote again until they get the "right" result.
0 -
Lol. Golden.HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
0 -
Ah well. That is interesting and reasonable criticism . This deal fulfils the referendum mandate . And isn't insane .As a Labour Remainer I could live with it. But, since no attempt has been made to include us in any part of the negotiations nor is there much Leaver support then what is the motivation?Floater said:
For oppositions sake?dixiedean said:
They aren't in Office .God forbid the opposition should oppose .Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.0 -
Fully agreed. Mrs May doesn't deserve anyones loyalty or respect.AllyPally_Rob said:We've had 2 years of a whopping lie from May saying "No Prime Minister could agree to a customs border down the Irish Sea" then putting forward an agreement that does exactly that. Don't be so selective with your criticism.
Liars make their own bed.0 -
https://www.eonline.com/news/994054/love-island-winners-dani-dyer-and-jack-fincham-announce-splitCharles said:
Genuine question... who the f*** are Jack and Danni?slade said:Jack and Danni are splitting up - according to Twitter this is more important than Britain and Europe splitting up.
(And no, I didn't know either.)0 -
That doesn’t follow at all.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who previously supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
0 -
It's perfectly legitimate for MPs to oppose Brexit. If an MP believes that Brexit is not in the best interests of the country, there is no shame in their attempting to veto it. Cameron said (unwisely) during the campaign that he would carry Brexit out if that was how we voted, but Cameron's promise does not commit other MPs to do so.Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.
What has been shameful over the last two years has been the way many MPs have behaved in a seemingly disingenuous way (not that we should be surprised - disingenuousness is the politician's stock-in-trade) - allowing article 50 to be triggered, but now rallying to the call for a second referendum. MPs should stand up and be counted rather than engage in cop-outs.0 -
I hope the chaos continues for another 2 weeksanother_richard said:Tourist attractions closed, football matches postponed, armoured vehicles on standby - France looks like it has serious problems.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46476037
Its not the microcosm of privileged wealth that Roger talks about is it
0 -
If they would outsource their jobs permanently, it would be wonderful.viewcode said:
No, it's worse. It's an assembly of the public to decide the questions to be put in a referendum to be answered by the public. It's magnificent, in a way. A MP has finally worked out how to outsource her entire job. I'd be impressed if it wasn't so wrong.alex. said:
A referendum to decide the questions that should be put in a referendum?HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
But I presume this would just be a way of evading reponsibility for a particular problem - naturally the creation of professional politicians - in the expectation that they'd be able to get their incompetent snouts back into the trough afterwards.0 -
The problem is these MPs were elected 18 months ago on a manifesto that promised to enact Brexit.Dadge said:
It's perfectly legitimate for MPs to oppose Brexit. If an MP believes that Brexit is not in the best interests of the country, there is no shame in their attempting to veto it. Cameron said (unwisely) during the campaign that he would carry Brexit out if that was how we voted, but Cameron's promise does not commit other MPs to do so.Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
Its a ridiculous argument. Just because a few Leave MPs decide not to support a particular form of Brexit dos not excuse the rest of Parliament from abiding by the result of the referendum. They are not answerable to the ERG but to the 17.4 million people who voted to Leave.Nigelb said:
An interesting argument.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
There really are some desperate arguments coming out of the Remainers to justify their turning their backs on democracy.
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.
What has been shameful over the last two years has been the way many MPs have behaved in a seemingly disingenuous way (not that we should be surprised - disingenuousness is the politician's stock-in-trade) - allowing article 50 to be triggered, but now rallying to the call for a second referendum. MPs should stand up and be counted rather than engage in cop-outs.0 -
Yet a number of people here consistently claim that Corbyn’s strength is his honesty. I presume that’s in comparison to themselves rather than objectively.El_Sid said:
Worth noting that Sabine Weyand liked that second post about the EU not renegotiating, as if it needed emphasising...CarlottaVance said:
0 -
If I wanted responsibility shirking, I’d ask for a legal opinion. If she thinks that being an MP is little more than being a glorified social worker then she should become a real one. Pathetic.HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
0 -
Why should I care?rcs1000 said:
https://www.eonline.com/news/994054/love-island-winners-dani-dyer-and-jack-fincham-announce-splitCharles said:
Genuine question... who the f*** are Jack and Danni?slade said:Jack and Danni are splitting up - according to Twitter this is more important than Britain and Europe splitting up.
(And no, I didn't know either.)
Sean’s an interesting guy btw0 -
It is how the Irish set the questions for referendums, and they have plenty of them. It is not a daft idea, just a way to have an unbiased question.viewcode said:
No, it's worse. It's an assembly of the public to decide the questions to be put in a referendum to be answered by the public. It's magnificent, in a way. A MP has finally worked out how to outsource her entire job. I'd be impressed if it wasn't so wrong.alex. said:
A referendum to decide the questions that should be put in a referendum?HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
0 -
Richard's point is that they will see it as having tried but failed. I agree that the argument doesn't really stack up - I would rather MPs argued for whatever they believe is right, as the LibDems have done - but I can see that if you live politics through the prism of parliament and see those colleagues who have been arguing for Brexit for years now doing their best to wreck their own government's attempt to achieve it, you might feel less constrained by a two and a half year old referendum that you and your government have attempted to deliver.asjohnstone said:
The problem is these MPs were elected 18 months ago on a manifesto that promised to enact Brexit.Dadge said:
It's perfectly legitimate for MPs to oppose Brexit. If an MP believes that Brexit is not in the best interests of the country, there is no shame in their attempting to veto it. Cameron said (unwisely) during the campaign that he would carry Brexit out if that was how we voted, but Cameron's promise does not commit other MPs to do so.Theo said:
The only reason there is an impasse is that Remain Labour MPs refuse to back any Brexit deal.williamglenn said:
We're at am impasse and you don't want to let the people vote to decide the way forwards. Who's turning their back on democracy?Richard_Tyndall said:
y.Nigelb said:
They should be ashamed of themselves and hounded out of office.
What has been shameful over the last two years has been the way many MPs have behaved in a seemingly disingenuous way (not that we should be surprised - disingenuousness is the politician's stock-in-trade) - allowing article 50 to be triggered, but now rallying to the call for a second referendum. MPs should stand up and be counted rather than engage in cop-outs.
Ignoring the obvious guff from HY upthread, insofar as there is an emerging consensus around Plan B it appears to involve some sort of Norway variant. This requires agreement with the EU, hence time, hence an A50 postponement. Whether the EU would grant that is an interesting question; they might for what would be a closer relationship, or it might need a change of circumstances. May's departure would do the job.
The biggest looming challenge is that if there is a Tory leadership contest there is every chance that May's replacement is likely to be even less keen on the option that might satisfy a majority of Parliament than is May herself, and more keen on options that don't have a cat's chance of getting through the Commons.0 -
In your opinion.Charles said:
That doesn’t follow at all.Richard_Nabavi said:
Leavers have their chance next Tuesday. At the moment it looks near-certain that they will decide to reject the deal which would implement Brexit. Once they have done that, any implicit commitment by those who previously supported Remain to implement the referendum result falls away; after all, if Leavers don't want it, why should those who never wanted it but thought the referendum should be respected continue to support it?HYUFD said:
Remain had its chance in 2016, Remain lost. We should only be having a second referendum to decide how we Leave after Leave beat Remain in the first referendumdixiedean said:
We won't get that though. It would not pass Parliament, and anyway, would simply not fly if the most popular first preference isn't on the paper.HYUFD said:With Remain and Deal tied on 50% each and Remain only leading No Deal 52% to 48% with YouGov today we are no closer to achieving a clear result than we were in 2016.
The only way to do so may be Deal v No Deal where Deal led 62% to 38%
It does, however, present the only conceivable way this Deal comes about, barring an emergency vote in March in the absence of owt else turning up meantime.
In mine, it does.
Leavers bang on constantly about how they are prepared to accept whatever Brexit costs, and then when it comes down to it, are unwilling to accept particular costs.
There is a deal on the table, flawed, but nonetheless, Brexit - which the electorate prefer by some margin to no deal.
Again,leavers bang o constantly about retainers being bad losers. Perhaps true, but rather less damaging than being bad winners.
-1 -
What the eff is a ‘Citizens’ Assembly’ ?Foxy said:
It is how the Irish set the questions for referendums, and they have plenty of them. It is not a daft idea, just a way to have an unbiased question.viewcode said:
No, it's worse. It's an assembly of the public to decide the questions to be put in a referendum to be answered by the public. It's magnificent, in a way. A MP has finally worked out how to outsource her entire job. I'd be impressed if it wasn't so wrong.alex. said:
A referendum to decide the questions that should be put in a referendum?HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
As someone said, it reminds one of the worst excesses of the French Revolution...
0 -
See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens'_assemblyNigelb said:
What the eff is a ‘Citizens’ Assembly’ ?Foxy said:
It is how the Irish set the questions for referendums, and they have plenty of them. It is not a daft idea, just a way to have an unbiased question.viewcode said:
No, it's worse. It's an assembly of the public to decide the questions to be put in a referendum to be answered by the public. It's magnificent, in a way. A MP has finally worked out how to outsource her entire job. I'd be impressed if it wasn't so wrong.alex. said:
A referendum to decide the questions that should be put in a referendum?HYUFD said:Liz Kendall comes out for an EU referendum 2 with questions to be decided by a 'Citizens' Assembly' in the ultimate cop out of Parliamentary responsibility on This Week
As someone said, it reminds one of the worst excesses of the French Revolution...
It's kind-of a cross between a parliament and a jury: Most of the members are randomly selected (with or without demographic balancing), like a jury pool.
It's useful if you have an issue that for whatever reason people don't trust your elected politicians to deal with, but is too complicated or not binary enough to settle with a referendum. One case like that is "what should we have a referendum on", because if the politicians get to game the questions then that undermines the whole idea, but if you try to settle it with a referendum then you have an infinite recursion problem.0 -
This is going to be enormously disruptive (setting aside the the merits of the move):
https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-War/US-strikes-at-heart-of-Made-in-China-with-Huawei-arrest
Washington will take a second -- and stricter -- step, forbidding companies around the world from doing business with U.S. government agencies if they use products from the five companies in their offices. This policy will start on Aug. 13, 2020, and apply regardless of whether the products and services are linked to the equipment.
The second measure has greater implications for companies, given the prevalence of Chinese-made communications equipment at American government agencies and their business partners around the world. If companies that use the five manufacturers' equipment want to continue dealing with the U.S., they will have to stop using them altogether and report the move to Washington....0 -
Talking of which, it’s interesting how the sovereignty absolutists have absolutely nothing to say about the way unilateral US sanctions on (for example) China or Iran have consequences for UK businesses at least as significant as any EU regulation.0
-
No-one does protectionism quite like the Americans.Nigelb said:This is going to be enormously disruptive (setting aside the the merits of the move):
https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-War/US-strikes-at-heart-of-Made-in-China-with-Huawei-arrest
Washington will take a second -- and stricter -- step, forbidding companies around the world from doing business with U.S. government agencies if they use products from the five companies in their offices. This policy will start on Aug. 13, 2020, and apply regardless of whether the products and services are linked to the equipment.
The second measure has greater implications for companies, given the prevalence of Chinese-made communications equipment at American government agencies and their business partners around the world. If companies that use the five manufacturers' equipment want to continue dealing with the U.S., they will have to stop using them altogether and report the move to Washington....0 -
They're yanking Chinese tech out of the world economy.DecrepitJohnL said:
No-one does protectionism quite like the Americans.Nigelb said:This is going to be enormously disruptive (setting aside the the merits of the move):
https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-War/US-strikes-at-heart-of-Made-in-China-with-Huawei-arrest
Washington will take a second -- and stricter -- step, forbidding companies around the world from doing business with U.S. government agencies if they use products from the five companies in their offices. This policy will start on Aug. 13, 2020, and apply regardless of whether the products and services are linked to the equipment.
The second measure has greater implications for companies, given the prevalence of Chinese-made communications equipment at American government agencies and their business partners around the world. If companies that use the five manufacturers' equipment want to continue dealing with the U.S., they will have to stop using them altogether and report the move to Washington....0 -
Hey, roo-botherers:
This is what it felt like to support England in the 1990s.
Forgive me if I can't stop laughing.0 -
Another day is the dystopian psycho drama called Brexit. A plot so convoluted and murky Channel 5 rejected it.
The pound shop Orwell script writers bash out a plot where votes are anti-democratic and the only bulletproof definition of Brexit is that Brexit means Brexit. Villains like Grieve and Clarke become allies, whereas heroes like Raab, Davis and Johnson become villains, united only by the daily hate of so called terrorist lovers.
It can’t be real, can it?0 -
At the moment, depressingly, I simply don’t see a route to anything other than no deal. I just don’t see that any viable alternatives to May’s deal are possible (not least while people refuse to acknowledge that May’s “deal” is in essence nothing more than the setting up of a transition period which is required in any non remain/non nodeal scenario). I don’t see how a referendum happens and not convinced that the outcome of a referendum wouldn’t be No deal anyway.
It doesn’t matter how much MPs “legislate” to avoid no deal, no deal is the default option without majority support for something else which also gains the support of the EU. At best some sort of extension of article 50, but to what purpose?0 -
Yes. If only we had a single market with our major trading partner...DecrepitJohnL said:
No-one does protectionism quite like the Americans.Nigelb said:This is going to be enormously disruptive (setting aside the the merits of the move):
https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-War/US-strikes-at-heart-of-Made-in-China-with-Huawei-arrest
Washington will take a second -- and stricter -- step, forbidding companies around the world from doing business with U.S. government agencies if they use products from the five companies in their offices. This policy will start on Aug. 13, 2020, and apply regardless of whether the products and services are linked to the equipment.
The second measure has greater implications for companies, given the prevalence of Chinese-made communications equipment at American government agencies and their business partners around the world. If companies that use the five manufacturers' equipment want to continue dealing with the U.S., they will have to stop using them altogether and report the move to Washington....0 -
Wow , that’s a really good idea. Do you think it could happen?Foxy said:
Yes. If only we had a single market with our major trading partner...DecrepitJohnL said:
No-one does protectionism quite like the Americans.Nigelb said:This is going to be enormously disruptive (setting aside the the merits of the move):
https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade-War/US-strikes-at-heart-of-Made-in-China-with-Huawei-arrest
Washington will take a second -- and stricter -- step, forbidding companies around the world from doing business with U.S. government agencies if they use products from the five companies in their offices. This policy will start on Aug. 13, 2020, and apply regardless of whether the products and services are linked to the equipment.
The second measure has greater implications for companies, given the prevalence of Chinese-made communications equipment at American government agencies and their business partners around the world. If companies that use the five manufacturers' equipment want to continue dealing with the U.S., they will have to stop using them altogether and report the move to Washington....0 -
Britain is in mid-Ratners moment, whatever the outcome the brand is trashed.Jonathan said:Another day is the dystopian psycho drama called Brexit. A plot so convoluted and murky Channel 5 rejected it.
The pound shop Orwell script writers bash out a plot where votes are anti-democratic and the only bulletproof definition of Brexit is that Brexit means Brexit. Villains like Grieve and Clarke become allies, whereas heroes like Raab, Davis and Johnson become villains, united only by the daily hate of so called terrorist lovers.
It can’t be real, can it?0 -
Part of my pro EU feeling has always been related to which way Britain is drawn with Europe being my preferred choice and America being the other option. I don't know to what extent it is true but I always felt part of the pull away from the EU was one trying to push us towards America.Nigelb said:Talking of which, it’s interesting how the sovereignty absolutists have absolutely nothing to say about the way unilateral US sanctions on (for example) China or Iran have consequences for UK businesses at least as significant as any EU regulation.
So for some I imagine us taking part in European decisions that affect us is more of a problem than Americans making decisions which affect us without our say.
Not only does staying within the EU lessen other countries ability to influence us but increases our ability to shape the things as we want them.0 -
In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the bungling idiots that make up our political class manage to contrive a situation where nodeal becomes the democratically mandated option of the British people (I think this is the ERG wet dream - that May goes to be replaced by a Nodealer triggering a General election up against Corbyn advocating the nonsense he is in the Guardian).alex. said:At the moment, depressingly, I simply don’t see a route to anything other than no deal. I just don’t see that any viable alternatives to May’s deal are possible (not least while people refuse to acknowledge that May’s “deal” is in essence nothing more than the setting up of a transition period which is required in any non remain/non nodeal scenario). I don’t see how a referendum happens and not convinced that the outcome of a referendum wouldn’t be No deal anyway.
It doesn’t matter how much MPs “legislate” to avoid no deal, no deal is the default option without majority support for something else which also gains the support of the EU. At best some sort of extension of article 50, but to what purpose?
0 -
Good grief, that’s bleak.Foxy said:
Britain is in mid-Ratners moment, whatever the outcome the brand is trashed.Jonathan said:Another day is the dystopian psycho drama called Brexit. A plot so convoluted and murky Channel 5 rejected it.
The pound shop Orwell script writers bash out a plot where votes are anti-democratic and the only bulletproof definition of Brexit is that Brexit means Brexit. Villains like Grieve and Clarke become allies, whereas heroes like Raab, Davis and Johnson become villains, united only by the daily hate of so called terrorist lovers.
It can’t be real, can it?
0 -
Do you really think we looking towards the end of this? I fear things are still going to get worse before they get better. Or before we arrive at some state of stability, however bad that is.Foxy said:
Britain is in mid-Ratners moment, whatever the outcome the brand is trashed.Jonathan said:Another day is the dystopian psycho drama called Brexit. A plot so convoluted and murky Channel 5 rejected it.
The pound shop Orwell script writers bash out a plot where votes are anti-democratic and the only bulletproof definition of Brexit is that Brexit means Brexit. Villains like Grieve and Clarke become allies, whereas heroes like Raab, Davis and Johnson become villains, united only by the daily hate of so called terrorist lovers.
It can’t be real, can it?
0 -
There is no doubt that things will get worse before they get better, it’s just a question of whether the damage is economic or political and how long and how much of a roller coaster it will be.OldKingCole said:
Do you really think we looking towards the end of this? I fear things are still going to get worse before they get better. Or before we arrive at some state of stability, however bad that is.Foxy said:
Britain is in mid-Ratners moment, whatever the outcome the brand is trashed.Jonathan said:Another day is the dystopian psycho drama called Brexit. A plot so convoluted and murky Channel 5 rejected it.
The pound shop Orwell script writers bash out a plot where votes are anti-democratic and the only bulletproof definition of Brexit is that Brexit means Brexit. Villains like Grieve and Clarke become allies, whereas heroes like Raab, Davis and Johnson become villains, united only by the daily hate of so called terrorist lovers.
It can’t be real, can it?0 -
Economic OR political? I suspect it will be both. And reputational.Jonathan said:
There is no doubt that things will get worse before they get better, it’s just a question of whether the damage is economic or political and how long and how much of a roller coaster it will be.OldKingCole said:
Do you really think we looking towards the end of this? I fear things are still going to get worse before they get better. Or before we arrive at some state of stability, however bad that is.Foxy said:
Britain is in mid-Ratners moment, whatever the outcome the brand is trashed.Jonathan said:Another day is the dystopian psycho drama called Brexit. A plot so convoluted and murky Channel 5 rejected it.
The pound shop Orwell script writers bash out a plot where votes are anti-democratic and the only bulletproof definition of Brexit is that Brexit means Brexit. Villains like Grieve and Clarke become allies, whereas heroes like Raab, Davis and Johnson become villains, united only by the daily hate of so called terrorist lovers.
It can’t be real, can it?0 -
Yes, indeed the reason Trump hates May's Deal is that it prevents us being bullied bt the US into a trade deal designed for the predators of the US economy.TheJezziah said:
Part of my pro EU feeling has always been related to which way Britain is drawn with Europe being my preferred choice and America being the other option. I don't know to what extent it is true but I always felt part of the pull away from the EU was one trying to push us towards America.Nigelb said:Talking of which, it’s interesting how the sovereignty absolutists have absolutely nothing to say about the way unilateral US sanctions on (for example) China or Iran have consequences for UK businesses at least as significant as any EU regulation.
So for some I imagine us taking part in European decisions that affect us is more of a problem than Americans making decisions which affect us without our say.
Not only does staying within the EU lessen other countries ability to influence us but increases our ability to shape the things as we want them.0 -
Have you ever found yourself dreaming and come to a point where you are aware that you're dreaming because there was something about your dream that wasn't credible? The last time this happened to me it was the notion that Lidl was open 24hrs (an enviably exciting dream life, I know).Jonathan said:Another day is the dystopian psycho drama called Brexit. A plot so convoluted and murky Channel 5 rejected it.
The pound shop Orwell script writers bash out a plot where votes are anti-democratic and the only bulletproof definition of Brexit is that Brexit means Brexit. Villains like Grieve and Clarke become allies, whereas heroes like Raab, Davis and Johnson become villains, united only by the daily hate of so called terrorist lovers.
It can’t be real, can it?
That is how I experience Brexit. As a nightmare I can never wake from despite the reality-defying lack of logic.0 -
Wow. Going to be a bit hard to keep getting big Labour swings there.williamglenn said:0 -
Right now, the only way of avoiding no deal would appear to be if the CJEU rules on Monday that not only can A50 not be revoked unilaterally but that it cannot be revoked at all by any mechanism. That's the only thing that might concentrate what passes for minds in the Labour Party on this deal.alex. said:
In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if the bungling idiots that make up our political class manage to contrive a situation where nodeal becomes the democratically mandated option of the British people (I think this is the ERG wet dream - that May goes to be replaced by a Nodealer triggering a General election up against Corbyn advocating the nonsense he is in the Guardian).alex. said:At the moment, depressingly, I simply don’t see a route to anything other than no deal. I just don’t see that any viable alternatives to May’s deal are possible (not least while people refuse to acknowledge that May’s “deal” is in essence nothing more than the setting up of a transition period which is required in any non remain/non nodeal scenario). I don’t see how a referendum happens and not convinced that the outcome of a referendum wouldn’t be No deal anyway.
It doesn’t matter how much MPs “legislate” to avoid no deal, no deal is the default option without majority support for something else which also gains the support of the EU. At best some sort of extension of article 50, but to what purpose?
It seems unlikely, but you never know. One of the big problems with the CJEU has always been that it tends to rule according to the politics not the law (and incidentally that would explain much about the Advocate General's extremely poorly argued view that A50 can be revoked unilaterally). This is also of course one reason why nobody pays much attention to it.0
