politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If TMay has to go quickly then, surely, Javid or Hunt should b
Comments
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I mean, yes and no. It doesn't mean moderate conservatives, it means a certain kind of angry elderly right-wing man. The shouty, angry pink ones you find in Question Time audiences, the ones whose entire world view is made up of the unpunctuated rants they leave below the line on Mail Online stories about Muslims.Sean_F said:
Nothing wrong with being a gammon. It's just a left wing insult meaning a Conservative.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
Tag yourself, which gammon are you? I'm middle-left.0 -
Corbyn led labour do not. Ed M was ok. Unless there's a decent independent it becomes LD by default but they hardly deserve it. I've never been so tempted to not vote.TheJezziah said:
Out of interest...kle4 said:
You going back to the Lib Dems (vote wise)? a minor party? abstain?
My impression is you've pretty much ruled out the Tories and Labour don't interest you.
And whatever happens with the deal the past few years means the Tories don't deserve consideration.0 -
The fewer immigrants in an area, the more Brexit it was.
Makes you think.0 -
Tories need to reclaim the term and wear with pride while subsisting on a diet of Guiness and Beef Wellingtons to assure the correct facial tint.Sean_F said:
Nothing wrong with being a gammon. It's just a left wing insult meaning a Conservative.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.0 -
ie staple mess food, you mean?Dura_Ace said:
Tories need to reclaim the term and wear with pride while subsisting on a diet of Guiness and Beef Wellingtons to assure the correct facial tint.Sean_F said:
Nothing wrong with being a gammon. It's just a left wing insult meaning a Conservative.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.0 -
There are no EU nationals because it is not a nation, but there are EU citizens which presently includes UK nationals. We are those people.TheWhiteRabbit said:Javid can say we're ending Freedom of Movement become FoM is entirely a creation of the EU. It is no synonymous with a high level of immigration, or even uncontrolled immigration. It reflects the fact the EU nationals have the prima facie right to enter the UK and all limitations are derogations from that right.
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Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?0 -
I assume the facial tint was mainly caused by the permanent bubbling rage of reading Breitbart daily and remembering that Muslims exist.Dura_Ace said:
Tories need to reclaim the term and wear with pride while subsisting on a diet of Guiness and Beef Wellingtons to assure the correct facial tint.Sean_F said:
Nothing wrong with being a gammon. It's just a left wing insult meaning a Conservative.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.0 -
Aren't we missing something. This all implies every one turns up. Not a single absence that hasn't been paired (and I think we can forget pairing for this one!).Pulpstar said:
Wonder if she's thinking of joining the LDs.Sean_F said:
I think she's the weakest link. She has the zeal of the convert.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ken Clarke, Dominic Grievr, and Anna Soubry hate Corbyn as PM more than Brexit, so Julian Smith should not worry about them.Pulpstar said:
Is there any chance the ultra-remainers within the Tories might go for the nuclear solution. I think those would be the ones I'd keep an eye on as Smith.TheScreamingEagles said:
To be fair Julian Smith he’s always managed to get the Tory vote out when it matters.Pulpstar said:
315 Tories + Elphicke + Griffiths = 317TheScreamingEagles said:
I wouldn’t put Bercow in the government column.Pulpstar said:If DUP abstain
315 Tories + Bercow + Elphicke + Griffiths = 318
257 Labour + 35 SNP + 12 Lib Dems + 4 PC + 1 Green + Field + Hopkins + Lewis + O'Mara + Woodcock = 314.
SF, DUP abstain = 17
Hermon = ?
So the Gov't can afford a DUP abstention but not vote against.
The precedent is that the Speaker votes with the government as not to create a majority where none exists.
However this is a minority government so an anti government majority already exists.
Rainbow 314 + Hermon + Bercow = 316
Slim majority indeed.
Wollaston I’d worry about.
Surely someone will be ill/family emergency/stuck on eurostar?0 -
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.0 -
What about (if there is a GE early 2019) Lab run on a promise to hold an immediate referendum between this deal and remain?NickPalmer said:John McDonnell at the Guardian event (where he incidentally said he was a Remainer both in the past and any future referendum) suggested that if Corbyn became PM and negotiated a revised deal, it would be appropriate to put that to a referendum.
Is that totally out of the question?0 -
Wollaston pairing off with Swinson potentially ?rottenborough said:
Aren't we missing something. This all implies every one turns up. Not a single absence that hasn't been paired (and I think we can forget pairing for this one!).Pulpstar said:
Wonder if she's thinking of joining the LDs.Sean_F said:
I think she's the weakest link. She has the zeal of the convert.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ken Clarke, Dominic Grievr, and Anna Soubry hate Corbyn as PM more than Brexit, so Julian Smith should not worry about them.Pulpstar said:
Is there any chance the ultra-remainers within the Tories might go for the nuclear solution. I think those would be the ones I'd keep an eye on as Smith.TheScreamingEagles said:
To be fair Julian Smith he’s always managed to get the Tory vote out when it matters.Pulpstar said:
315 Tories + Elphicke + Griffiths = 317TheScreamingEagles said:
I wouldn’t put Bercow in the government column.Pulpstar said:If DUP abstain
315 Tories + Bercow + Elphicke + Griffiths = 318
257 Labour + 35 SNP + 12 Lib Dems + 4 PC + 1 Green + Field + Hopkins + Lewis + O'Mara + Woodcock = 314.
SF, DUP abstain = 17
Hermon = ?
So the Gov't can afford a DUP abstention but not vote against.
The precedent is that the Speaker votes with the government as not to create a majority where none exists.
However this is a minority government so an anti government majority already exists.
Rainbow 314 + Hermon + Bercow = 316
Slim majority indeed.
Wollaston I’d worry about.
Surely someone will be ill/family emergency/stuck on eurostar?0 -
I don't think pairing applies, not on VONCs. In 1979:rottenborough said:
Surely someone will be ill/family emergency/stuck on eurostar?
One crucial vote was lost by Labour backbencher Sir Alfred Broughton who was unable to attend the vote due to ill health.[1] Broughton (professionally a doctor) was mortally ill and died a few days after the vote but was determined to come to Westminster if it meant saving the Government, although his own doctor was strongly opposed. Parliamentary procedure would have allowed his vote to be counted even if he remained within an ambulance at Speaker's Court.
However, after a debate over what would happen if Broughton died en route, Callaghan finally decided that he would not risk Broughton's health by asking him to travel, a decision which was to bring down the Government.[2] Broughton died on 2 April 1979.
In the BBC documentary "A Parliamentary Coup" it was revealed that Bernard Weatherill played a critical role in the defeat of the government in the vote of confidence. As the vote loomed, Labour's deputy Chief Whip, Walter Harrison approached Weatherill to enforce the pairing convention that if a sick MP from the Government could not vote, an MP from the Opposition would abstain to compensate.
Weatherill said that pairing had never been intended for votes on Matters of Confidence that meant the life or death of the Government and it would be impossible to find a Conservative MP who would agree to abstain. However, after a moment's reflection, he offered that he himself would abstain, because he felt it would be dishonourable to break his word with Harrison. Harrison was so impressed by Weatherill's offer – which would have effectively ended his political career – that he released Weatherill from his obligation and so the Government fell by one vote on the agreement of gentlemen.[13]
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EU citizens, I should say. Member state nationals.Beverley_C said:
There are no EU nationals because it is not a nation, but there are EU citizens which presently includes UK nationals. We are those people.TheWhiteRabbit said:Javid can say we're ending Freedom of Movement become FoM is entirely a creation of the EU. It is no synonymous with a high level of immigration, or even uncontrolled immigration. It reflects the fact the EU nationals have the prima facie right to enter the UK and all limitations are derogations from that right.
Freedom of Movement in the UK does not extend to most UK citizens, who enter the UK by virtue of that status and not of EU citizens. Though of course it is the same Freedoms that UK nationals enjoy when visiting other Member States.0 -
-_-Dura_Ace said:
Tories need to reclaim the term and wear with pride while subsisting on a diet of Guiness and Beef Wellingtons to assure the correct facial tint.Sean_F said:
Nothing wrong with being a gammon. It's just a left wing insult meaning a Conservative.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.0 -
It makes me think that all the "brexit = anti-immigration" stuff is simplistic and wrong, from both sides.grabcocque said:The fewer immigrants in an area, the more Brexit it was.
Makes you think.0 -
@Sandpit of this parish provides a ready example.TheWhiteRabbit said:
EU citizens, I should say. Member state nationals.Beverley_C said:
There are no EU nationals because it is not a nation, but there are EU citizens which presently includes UK nationals. We are those people.TheWhiteRabbit said:Javid can say we're ending Freedom of Movement become FoM is entirely a creation of the EU. It is no synonymous with a high level of immigration, or even uncontrolled immigration. It reflects the fact the EU nationals have the prima facie right to enter the UK and all limitations are derogations from that right.
Freedom of Movement in the UK does not extend to most UK citizens, who enter the UK by virtue of that status and not of EU citizens. Though of course it is the same Freedoms that UK nationals enjoy when visiting other Member States.0 -
There was a correlation, but plenty of surprises too.grabcocque said:The fewer immigrants in an area, the more Brexit it was.
Makes you think.
Barking & Dagenham, Birmingham, Bradford, Wolverhampton, Sandwell, Coventry, Dudley, Sheffield, Nottingham, Luton, Kirklees, Calderdale, all voted Leave, and Harrow and Newham came close. I expect this was because plenty of long-standing immigrants in those boroughs and cities voted Leave.
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Brexiters in the same breath say how Brexit is not about immigration and then have a conniption fit when it is suggested that we could retain freedom of movement.DecrepitJohnL said:
It makes me think that all the "brexit = anti-immigration" stuff is simplistic and wrong, from both sides.grabcocque said:The fewer immigrants in an area, the more Brexit it was.
Makes you think.0 -
Be fair, despite being some of the most cossetted human beings in history, the aging white right only want their share of the whiny victimhood pie.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.0 -
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.0 -
Ok so couple of questions:kle4 said:Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.
1. Does that mean the May cannot lead them into a pre brexit GE?
2. Would the EU grant an incoming Lab govt an article 50 extension?0 -
But the Nationalists won't give it up?Theuniondivvie said:Be fair, despite being some of the most cossetted human beings in history, the aging white right only want their share of the whiny victimhood pie.
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It's going to be hilarious when the gammons realise that they were bamboozled by Boris into voting for the largest increase in the amount of melanin in the UK since Windrush.0
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No, it's just that it's the people who haven't yet experienced immigration feel most threatened by it.DecrepitJohnL said:
It makes me think that all the "brexit = anti-immigration" stuff is simplistic and wrong, from both sides.grabcocque said:The fewer immigrants in an area, the more Brexit it was.
Makes you think.
" areas where residents are most likely to oppose immigration – such as Thanet, where Nigel Farage campaigned for parliament in 2015 – tend also to have the least direct experiences of it"
http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-621380 -
Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
"You can't be a victim of racism, because of your race" is up there with having a Select Committee dedicated to "Women and Equalities". Because nothing says equality like citing one gender.
If people's views are wrong, attacking the views rather than the people makes more sense, and seeking to persuade through presenting a more convincing view is better still.0 -
That is true of their opponents, as well.Theuniondivvie said:
Be fair, despite being some of the most cossetted human beings in history, the aging white right only want their share of the whiny victimhood pie.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.0 -
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.0 -
I disagree, as Deltapoll shows more voters back the Deal than either Remain or No Deal head to headkle4 said:
Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.kinabalu said:So a GE early 2019, Cons under May offering this deal, Lab under Corbyn offering 2nd ref with option to remain, what do we think the most likely outcome of that would be?
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Like Theresa May and all good Marxists, I'd be looking at economic explanations first.Bromptonaut said:
No, it's just that it's the people who haven't yet experienced immigration feel most threatened by it.DecrepitJohnL said:
It makes me think that all the "brexit = anti-immigration" stuff is simplistic and wrong, from both sides.grabcocque said:The fewer immigrants in an area, the more Brexit it was.
Makes you think.
" areas where residents are most likely to oppose immigration – such as Thanet, where Nigel Farage campaigned for parliament in 2015 – tend also to have the least direct experiences of it"
http://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-621380 -
I don't think I've ever had anything that could be identified as Beef Wellington by forensic scientists on any of Pusser's War Canoes.TOPPING said:
ie staple mess food, you mean?Dura_Ace said:
Tories need to reclaim the term and wear with pride while subsisting on a diet of Guiness and Beef Wellingtons to assure the correct facial tint.Sean_F said:
Nothing wrong with being a gammon. It's just a left wing insult meaning a Conservative.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
The best shipboard food I ever had was in the Officers' Mess of INS Viraat. Their Sea Harrier drivers (INAS 300) dined like maharajahs and spent their time cruising in a triangle between Mumbai, the Seychelles and the Maldives.0 -
No because Corbyn squeezed the LD, Green and UKIP votes, there was little net movement from Tory to Labour in 2017AmpfieldAndy said:
Only because of a revival in Scotland. That won’t happen next time whereas Corbyn will make more gains in the South and West Midlands.HYUFD said:
May got about the 42% she had at the start of the campaign, just Corbyn squeezed minor partiesAmpfieldAndy said:
She led by 20% at the start of the election campaign and lost her majority. 5% without boundary changes is nothing.felix said:
That is why she leads Labour by 5 % in the last Year poll I guess.AmpfieldAndy said:
May is electoral poison. She has no charisma and lost a 20% lead in the polls in the last election. She has no policies other than Brexit which no one likes. Both no deal and no Brexit are preferable. She has no domestic policy agenda and Hammond is just another tax and spend Chancellor. Who on earth wants to vote for all that. Raising the fear of a Corbyn Gov didn’t work last time, why on earth should it this time. It’s all she has got and it doesn’t work. Ditching her is the the Tories only hope and they don’t seem to want to save themselves.MikeSmithson said:
What death wish? While Corbyn leads LAB there a few risks for the ToriesAmpfieldAndy said:
We’ll see. I don’t think the ERG have the numbers to topple May. They can’t even force a leadership contest. However a Leave supporting OM is the only way to proceed. I think May d Corbyn will be in Downing St some time next year.HYUFD said:
If the ERG manage to topple May, which is unlikely, they are not going to allow a coronation for a Deal supporter like Hammond, Javid or Hunt but force a contest with one of their own like Boris or Davis going to the membership on a try for Canada Plus or No Deal platform and that candidate would likely winAmpfieldAndy said:Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Hammond may get the gig as a caretaker. Not sure I see him winning a contest for the permanent post.
Some markets are just next Con leader, others are next permanent Con leader, not counting temporary/caretaker replacements for May.
Hammond has no chance. He is more unpopular than May and even less charisma. He is just another tax and spend Chancellor who is over promoted. Either the Tories appoint a Leave supporter to replace May or they lay out the welcome mat for Corbyn.0 -
It does not have to mean more non-EU immigration , the whole idea was so they could implement decent immigration rules and only take who they need for skills shortages rather than current system where everyone and their dog can just waltz in and never be chucked out. It is impossible for this overcrowded island to continue taking in 300K people every year, something has to give.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.0 -
London voted for less non-EU immigration and more from the EU.TOPPING said:
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.0 -
It could be PM Corbyn pushing through permanent Customs Union and Single Market if the Deal goes downAmpfieldAndy said:
The name recognition of being party leader is always important. May is a proven failure and loser. I doubt Westminister will tolerate No Deal but it is May’s negligence and gross dereliction in failing to prepare for it which will be responsible for any initial chaos if we do get No Deal. If we end up with no Brexit,which includes staying in the Customs Union and Single Market, then it doesn’t matter who the Tories appoint to replace her. They will lose the next election big time.HYUFD said:
Given no alternative leader polls any better than May and most poll worse and the Deal is the only offer on the table from the EU if the ERG force May out and end up with Corbyn as PM and permanent Customs Union and maybe permanent Single Market too then that is up to themAmpfieldAndy said:
We’ll see. I don’t think the ERG have the numbers to topple May. They can’t even force a leadership contest. However a Leave supporting OM is the only way to proceed. I think May will lose her deal by a big margin, having been found in contempt of parliament for not publishing her legal advice, face a no confidence vote but survive thanks to the Remainers in the Tory Party who have a death wish. The DUP will help Labour bring her down and Corbyn will be in Downing St some time next year.HYUFD said:
If the ERG manage to topple May, which is unlikely, they are not going to allow a coronation for a Deal supporter like Hammond, Javid or Hunt but force a contest with one of their own like Boris or Davis going to the membership on a try for Canada Plus or No Deal platform and that candidate would likely winAmpfieldAndy said:Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Hammond may get the gig as a caretaker. Not sure I see him winning a contest for the permanent post.
Some markets are just next Con leader, others are next permanent Con leader, not counting temporary/caretaker replacements for May.
Hammond has no chance. He is more unpopular than May and even less charisma. He is just another tax and spend Chancellor who is over promoted. Either the Tories appoint a Leave supporter to replace May or they lay out the welcome mat for Corbyn.0 -
Indeed, libertarians tend to be rich social liberals and they will only ever be a small minority of the populationSean_F said:0 -
The 12 Inner London boroughs (plus Haringey) have a very distinctive political culture.Xenon said:
London voted for less non-EU immigration and more from the EU.TOPPING said:
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.
The Outer London boroughs are much closer to the rest of the England than to Inner London in their political outlook.0 -
Brexiteers do not understand that FoM is not a synonym for immigration and the same government now proclaiming it will end FoM did nothing to curb immigration even from non-EU countries. The government has tied itself and Brexit in knots over its wholly symbolic need to end FoM.TOPPING said:
Brexiters in the same breath say how Brexit is not about immigration and then have a conniption fit when it is suggested that we could retain freedom of movement.DecrepitJohnL said:
It makes me think that all the "brexit = anti-immigration" stuff is simplistic and wrong, from both sides.grabcocque said:The fewer immigrants in an area, the more Brexit it was.
Makes you think.0 -
Yes sorry I meant to apologise for being out when you came round with your questionnaire.Xenon said:
London voted for less non-EU immigration and more from the EU.TOPPING said:
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.0 -
Mr Bromptonaut,
"No, it's just that it's the people who haven't yet experienced immigration feel most threatened by it."
Now, lets see … the people most threatened by immigration reside in Vilnius central (aka Boston - 76% Leave). I assume you've never been there. Or being as it's white immigration, it doesn't count?
0 -
Dame Eleanor Laing has endorsed the Deal in a letter to party members in Epping Forest.Pulpstar said:@TheScreamingEagles I have to say I'd be very very surprised if Bercow, Hoyle, Laing and Winterton didn't split 2-2.
She backed Leave0 -
Are you this smarmy in real life? I can't imagine going through life being this unbearably smug.TOPPING said:
Yes sorry I meant to apologise for being out when you came round with your questionnaire.Xenon said:
London voted for less non-EU immigration and more from the EU.TOPPING said:
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.0 -
Nobody gave a fuck about the Rotherham (and other) victims because of their social class not their race. If middle class girls from Berkshire had been abused the perpetrators would have been locked up immediately.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
You need an intersectionalist analysis to understand Rotherham and similar cases. Read "Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Politics", by Kimberlé Crenshaw for an introduction.
0 -
Tbf this nationalist has been pretty quiet recently, but her underlings have done a sterling job in keeping the whine level at max.Scott_P said:
But the Nationalists won't give it up?Theuniondivvie said:Be fair, despite being some of the most cossetted human beings in history, the aging white right only want their share of the whiny victimhood pie.
https://twitter.com/marcus_buist/status/5933986361988956160 -
Totally O/t but on service food my late father-in-law was in bomb disposal late in WWII. Part of his duties was to go and make safe bombs which had fallen on American airfields, and after he'd finished the grateful Yanks would offer him a steak dinner. However, he was vegetarian, so always refused. They'd then offer him beer, and he was a teetotaller.Dura_Ace said:
I don't think I've ever had anything that could be identified as Beef Wellington by forensic scientists on any of Pusser's War Canoes.TOPPING said:
ie staple mess food, you mean?Dura_Ace said:
Tories need to reclaim the term and wear with pride while subsisting on a diet of Guiness and Beef Wellingtons to assure the correct facial tint.Sean_F said:
Nothing wrong with being a gammon. It's just a left wing insult meaning a Conservative.grabcocque said:
John, we've been over this before, gammons don't count as a race.John_M said:
I love racists making arguments about racism. It's...kind of recursive. For avoidance of doubt: you are a racist.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
The best shipboard food I ever had was in the Officers' Mess of INS Viraat. Their Sea Harrier drivers (INAS 300) dined like maharajahs and spent their time cruising in a triangle between Mumbai, the Seychelles and the Maldives.
He ended up with ice cream, which of course was unavalable in civilian UK.0 -
Dura_Ace said:Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
You need an intersectionalist analysis to understand Rotherham and similar cases. Read "Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Politics", by Kimberlé Crenshaw for an introduction.
I think I'd rather stick weasels down my trousers.
0 -
Wasn't it a bit of both, TBH? Not something of which we can be proud.Dura_Ace said:
Nobody gave a fuck about the Rotherham (and other) victims because of their social class not their race. If middle class girls from Berkshire had been abused the perpetrators would have been locked up immediately.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
You need an intersectionalist analysis to understand Rotherham and similar cases. Read "Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Politics", by Kimberlé Crenshaw for an introduction.0 -
Yeah twats do bring out the worst of me.Xenon said:
Are you this smarmy in real life? I can't imagine going through life being this unbearably smug.TOPPING said:
Yes sorry I meant to apologise for being out when you came round with your questionnaire.Xenon said:
London voted for less non-EU immigration and more from the EU.TOPPING said:
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.0 -
If that's an introduction, what would you recommend for advanced studies?Dura_Ace said:You need an intersectionalist analysis to understand Rotherham and similar cases. Read "Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Politics", by Kimberlé Crenshaw for an introduction.
0 -
Ooh I might get a mini referendum before the vote !
https://twitter.com/JohnMannMP/status/1069321971685568515
0 -
No idea to both, Though I cannot see why the EU would offer an extension, even if it is within their power, on an uncertain outcome which might result in another impasse. Also I do not see how may could lead the Tories into a GE but equally an interim leader would not have a policy supported by all to take to a GE so I'm flummoxedkinabalu said:
Ok so couple of questions:kle4 said:Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.
1. Does that mean the May cannot lead them into a pre brexit GE?
2. Would the EU grant an incoming Lab govt an article 50 extension?0 -
It's some time since I read the Jay report, but did it really say that assumptions were made that white people cannot be victims?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
(Snip)0 -
Seconded. Crenshaw talks a lot of sense. Takes as much aim at the "traditional Left", in particular the comfortable middle class feminism which is prevalent in certain professional circles, as at more typical targets.Dura_Ace said:
Nobody gave a fuck about the Rotherham (and other) victims because of their social class not their race. If middle class girls from Berkshire had been abused the perpetrators would have been locked up immediately.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
You need an intersectionalist analysis to understand Rotherham and similar cases. Read "Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Politics", by Kimberlé Crenshaw for an introduction.0 -
But the Tories will not universally back the deal in a GE. They're bringing down the government over it already.HYUFD said:
I disagree, as Deltapoll shows more voters back the Deal than either Remain or No Deal head to headkle4 said:
Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.kinabalu said:So a GE early 2019, Cons under May offering this deal, Lab under Corbyn offering 2nd ref with option to remain, what do we think the most likely outcome of that would be?
0 -
Yes I think you did. Why is it ethically and economically beneficially to apply free movement to the French, Germany, Italians, Poles and Romanians but not Australians, Candians, Americans, Singaporeans and Indians?TheJezziah said:
I think a lot of us missed that subtle anti racism message behind brexit in between the scare mongering about Turks and Syrians.Philip_Thompson said:
You do have to be a racist to think that free movement should apply to [predominantly white] Europeans and not other nations.Scott_P said:
You don't have to be a Libertarian to appreciate the benefits of free movementSean_F said:Most people aren't libertarians. If they were, we'd have a borderless world, with a flat tax rate of 10%.
0 -
Afternoon folks.
How do I get to see the (Betfair) chart showing the percentage breakdown, UK to leave the EU (Yes/No)? Wondering if we have had crossover yet?0 -
Because it’s reciprocal and because they are part of our domestic economic market.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes I think you did. Why is it ethically and economically beneficially to apply free movement to the French, Germany, Italians, Poles and Romanians but not Australians, Candians, Americans, Singaporeans and Indians?TheJezziah said:
I think a lot of us missed that subtle anti racism message behind brexit in between the scare mongering about Turks and Syrians.Philip_Thompson said:
You do have to be a racist to think that free movement should apply to [predominantly white] Europeans and not other nations.Scott_P said:
You don't have to be a Libertarian to appreciate the benefits of free movementSean_F said:Most people aren't libertarians. If they were, we'd have a borderless world, with a flat tax rate of 10%.
0 -
How have we got to a point when the 'big beasts' are Hunt and Javid?! About as big and beastly as the Downing Street cat!0
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Unlike this one...Theuniondivvie said:Tbf this nationalist has been pretty quiet recently
https://twitter.com/ali_harper/status/10692879173596487700 -
-
If it looks like it'll result in a better deal for their members, sure they'd offer an extension.kle4 said:
No idea to both, Though I cannot see why the EU would offer an extension, even if it is within their power, on an uncertain outcome which might result in another impasse. Also I do not see how may could lead the Tories into a GE but equally an interim leader would not have a policy supported by all to take to a GE so I'm flummoxedkinabalu said:
Ok so couple of questions:kle4 said:Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.
1. Does that mean the May cannot lead them into a pre brexit GE?
2. Would the EU grant an incoming Lab govt an article 50 extension?
The current thing is heavily constrained by TMay's red lines, which don't fit together on normal geometry, hence its uncanny angles that appear loathsomely non-Euclidean, a hideous monolith whose gaze leads the observer to question both their sanity and reality.
However, Corbyn may also fight an election on similar contradictions, so you'd expect him to at least come up with something coherent, potentially immediately dropping whatever bullshit he'd fought the election on, if he wanted the rest of the EU to answer the call.0 -
Fascinating. By my reading of the graph the only EU nation with comparable migration rates to us are Luxembourg (micronation, not really a comparison for anything) and Sweden. No other nation I can see have had our sustained rates of migration.John_M said:
Not directly responding to you, but for those interested, here's a useful link:Philip_Thompson said:
Name the other EU nations with our population density and out net migration rate.grabcocque said:
I mean, other EU nations seem to be able to cope with proportionate levels of immigration. We cannot- and I don't think UK politicians have ever seriously engaged with why.currystar said:
300,000 a year is reasonably sustainable?grabcocque said:
I think we've learned the hard way that attempting to placate extremism doesn't work and can backfire spectacularly.Sean_F said:
I think what has never been adequately addressed is the reason why the UK's benefits, housing and healthcare systems are so unduly strained by what should be a reasonably sustainable level of immigration, especially as compared to other EU nations.
I think there's been a real public policy failure here. Blaming immigration allowed politicians to ignore serious structural problems in our services for decades, and here we are.
http://bruegel.org/2017/12/how-the-eu-has-become-an-immigration-area/
Gives a per-country breakdown.
Second part of my question was population density.
UK 395 people per square kilometre.
Sweden 22 people per square kilometre.
So doesn't look like, despite grabcocque's claims to the contrary, that any other is comparable to us.0 -
I believe the EU have already said that they would only offer an A50 extension for a GE or a referendum (so implicitly agreeing to do so for either one).kle4 said:
No idea to both, Though I cannot see why the EU would offer an extension, even if it is within their power, on an uncertain outcome which might result in another impasse. Also I do not see how may could lead the Tories into a GE but equally an interim leader would not have a policy supported by all to take to a GE so I'm flummoxedkinabalu said:
Ok so couple of questions:kle4 said:Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.
1. Does that mean the May cannot lead them into a pre brexit GE?
2. Would the EU grant an incoming Lab govt an article 50 extension?
Their logic was that in the absence of a significant political change, there would be no substantive change in the situation and therefore no justification for an A50 extension.
So if there was one of those, it would indicate the possibility of a substantive change and it would therefore be wrong to deny us the time we'd need afterwards.0 -
What on earth are UKIP up to? If they had just kept a lid on things there are huge numbers of Tories who'd surely be tempted.Scott_P said:
0 -
I think labour would be more flexible but as you point out he might need to fight an election on contradictory promises. The EU could not be sure a delay would be worth it for them.edmundintokyo said:
If it looks like it'll result in a better deal for their members, sure they'd offer an extension.kle4 said:
No idea to both, Though I cannot see why the EU would offer an extension, even if it is within their power, on an uncertain outcome which might result in another impasse. Also I do not see how may could lead the Tories into a GE but equally an interim leader would not have a policy supported by all to take to a GE so I'm flummoxedkinabalu said:
Ok so couple of questions:kle4 said:Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.
1. Does that mean the May cannot lead them into a pre brexit GE?
2. Would the EU grant an incoming Lab govt an article 50 extension?
The current thing is heavily constrained by TMay's red lines, which don't fit together on normal geometry, hence its uncanny angles that appear loathsomely non-Euclidean, a hideous monolith whose gaze leads the observer to question both their sanity and reality.
However, Corbyn may also fight an election on similar contradictions, so you'd expect him to at least come up with something coherent, potentially immediately dropping whatever bullshit he'd fought the election on, if he wanted the rest of the EU to answer the call.0 -
No but most Tory voters if not MPs and members back the Deal in the polls along with a significant number of working class Labour voters as John Mann has found out. It is really diehard Remain voters, UKIP voters and Hannanites who.oppose the Dealkle4 said:
But the Tories will not universally back the deal in a GE. They're bringing down the government over it already.HYUFD said:
I disagree, as Deltapoll shows more voters back the Deal than either Remain or No Deal head to headkle4 said:
Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.kinabalu said:So a GE early 2019, Cons under May offering this deal, Lab under Corbyn offering 2nd ref with option to remain, what do we think the most likely outcome of that would be?
0 -
One of the problems in Boston is the immigration is mass immigration and unlike some other Europeans, most don't speak much English. Usually their second language is Russian - a language they often use to converse together. It makes integration much more difficult.
Having said that, I'd prefer that to having masses of Londoners flocking in.
One of my younger nephews in Boston voted Remain, but we assume he'll grow out of it.
0 -
Our domestic nation is the UK. We have free trade with their domestic markets.williamglenn said:
Because it’s reciprocal and because they are part of our domestic economic market.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes I think you did. Why is it ethically and economically beneficially to apply free movement to the French, Germany, Italians, Poles and Romanians but not Australians, Candians, Americans, Singaporeans and Indians?TheJezziah said:
I think a lot of us missed that subtle anti racism message behind brexit in between the scare mongering about Turks and Syrians.Philip_Thompson said:
You do have to be a racist to think that free movement should apply to [predominantly white] Europeans and not other nations.Scott_P said:
You don't have to be a Libertarian to appreciate the benefits of free movementSean_F said:Most people aren't libertarians. If they were, we'd have a borderless world, with a flat tax rate of 10%.
So you'd have no ethical or economic concerns about free movement with Australia, Canada, United States, Singapore or India then? So long as we could agree a single market with them it would be xenophobic not to agree to it right?
Same for Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Ethiopia?0 -
Even that is a big oversimplifcation. Havering is not like Richmond upon Thames, in fact their Brexit vote is the mirror image of one another.Sean_F said:The 12 Inner London boroughs (plus Haringey) have a very distinctive political culture.
The Outer London boroughs are much closer to the rest of the England than to Inner London in their political outlook.
Talking about what London thinks (Greater London to be precise) is like lumping Scotland and Wales together, and it usually results in a misleading statement.0 -
0
-
Yes, but Havering looks out to the east of London and Richmond to the southwest. And in that regards they are more like their neighbours outside London than their neighbours in Central London.glw said:
Even that is a big oversimplifcation. Havering is not like Richmond upon Thames, in fact their Brexit vote is the mirror image of one another.Sean_F said:The 12 Inner London boroughs (plus Haringey) have a very distinctive political culture.
The Outer London boroughs are much closer to the rest of the England than to Inner London in their political outlook.
Talking about what London thinks (Greater London to be precise) is like lumping Scotland and Wales together, and it usually results in a misleading statement.0 -
It is an oversimplification. London is a series of towns and villages that have grown into each other, and which have their own political cultures.glw said:
Even that is a big oversimplifcation. Havering is not like Richmond upon Thames, in fact their Brexit vote is the mirror image of one another.Sean_F said:The 12 Inner London boroughs (plus Haringey) have a very distinctive political culture.
The Outer London boroughs are much closer to the rest of the England than to Inner London in their political outlook.
Talking about what London thinks (Greater London to be precise) is like lumping Scotland and Wales together, and it usually results in a misleading statement.0 -
In fact middle class girls and boys from Berkshire were being abused by music teachers. This is the tip of the iceberg.Dura_Ace said:
Nobody gave a fuck about the Rotherham (and other) victims because of their social class not their race. If middle class girls from Berkshire had been abused the perpetrators would have been locked up immediately.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
You need an intersectionalist analysis to understand Rotherham and similar cases. Read "Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Politics", by Kimberlé Crenshaw for an introduction.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4277808/Head-Music-Wellington-College-suspended.html
I daresay police were afraid to intervene for fear of appearing tone deaf.
0 -
You are being disingenuous. Most people including those in government dislike the deal. Mrs May has run the clock down so the option is take it or leave it.HYUFD said:
No but most Tory voters if not MPs and members back the Deal in the polls along with a significant number of working class Labour voters as John Mann has found out. It is really diehard Remain voters, UKIP voters and Hannanites who.oppose the Dealkle4 said:
But the Tories will not universally back the deal in a GE. They're bringing down the government over it already.HYUFD said:
I disagree, as Deltapoll shows more voters back the Deal than either Remain or No Deal head to headkle4 said:
Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.kinabalu said:So a GE early 2019, Cons under May offering this deal, Lab under Corbyn offering 2nd ref with option to remain, what do we think the most likely outcome of that would be?
0 -
She'll be the new Shirley Williams?dr_spyn said:UKIP making headlines again.
https://twitter.com/MichaelLCrick/status/10695759284713472000 -
You can hear the boats go by, you can spend the night foreverdr_spyn said:UKIP making headlines again.
https://twitter.com/MichaelLCrick/status/10695759284713472000 -
Don't worry, I dare say you will remain comfortable in your prejudice and bigotry as few Londoners are likely to target Boston as their new home.CD13 said:Mr Bromptonaut,
"No, it's just that it's the people who haven't yet experienced immigration feel most threatened by it."
Now, lets see … the people most threatened by immigration reside in Vilnius central (aka Boston - 76% Leave). I assume you've never been there. Or being as it's white immigration, it doesn't count?0 -
May refuses to categorically rule out a second EU referendum
https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10695442363102412800 -
That's at least 50% garbage. Waltham Forest is an outer London borough yet is a fully fledged part of the capital. Ditto Richmond (in a different way). The fact that older Haveringites refuse to accept the 1965 boundary changes and still think they are part of Essex goes only a tiny way to making your point.Sean_F said:
The 12 Inner London boroughs (plus Haringey) have a very distinctive political culture.Xenon said:
London voted for less non-EU immigration and more from the EU.TOPPING said:
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
The second one, that the UK is "full" is a lie, rather than racist per se. But it's used by gammons as justification since even they know saying "my area has some different people in it and I don't like it" is racist.
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.
The Outer London boroughs are much closer to the rest of the England than to Inner London in their political outlook.0 -
May would generally refuse to categorically confirm today is Monday unless backed into a corner. It’s a stylistic thing.HYUFD said:May refuses to categorically rule out a second EU referendum
https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1069544236310241280
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I thought that. Are these two semi-chumps now seen as the oracle? If so, why?PeterMannion said:How have we got to a point when the 'big beasts' are Hunt and Javid?! About as big and beastly as the Downing Street cat!
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Well they do say that a trait of rightwingers is luxuriating in their own ignorance.Sean_F said:Dura_Ace said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
You need an intersectionalist analysis to understand Rotherham and similar cases. Read "Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Politics", by Kimberlé Crenshaw for an introduction.
I think I'd rather stick weasels down my trousers.0 -
Everyone's a bit hard on Larry!Anazina said:
I thought that. Are these two semi-chumps now seen as the oracle? If so, why?PeterMannion said:How have we got to a point when the 'big beasts' are Hunt and Javid?! About as big and beastly as the Downing Street cat!
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Wrong, as Deltapoll proved the Deal beats Remain and No Deal head to head with votersMexicanpete said:
You are being disingenuous. Most people including those in government dislike the deal. Mrs May has run the clock down so the option is take it or leave it.HYUFD said:
No but most Tory voters if not MPs and members back the Deal in the polls along with a significant number of working class Labour voters as John Mann has found out. It is really diehard Remain voters, UKIP voters and Hannanites who.oppose the Dealkle4 said:
But the Tories will not universally back the deal in a GE. They're bringing down the government over it already.HYUFD said:
I disagree, as Deltapoll shows more voters back the Deal than either Remain or No Deal head to headkle4 said:
Labour win if they pitch it as remain an option but we will seek to renegotiate. The Tories simply cannot stand united promoting this deal, too many standing mps will not do it.kinabalu said:So a GE early 2019, Cons under May offering this deal, Lab under Corbyn offering 2nd ref with option to remain, what do we think the most likely outcome of that would be?
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I agree with that, but it still doesn't make much sense to talk about "Outer London" as a uniform block, when as you point out their politics probably has more to do with say the counties from which Outer London is composed.tlg86 said:Yes, but Havering looks out to the east of London and Richmond to the southwest. And in that regards they are more like their neighbours outside London than their neighbours in Central London.
Yes, but you wouldn't know that from listening to the commentariat which talks as though London has one settled view on any issue. It's way more diverse than that, and you can see huge changes in places and people mere minutes apart, and in the same town nevermind the same Borough.Sean_F said:It is an oversimplification. London is a series of towns and villages that have grown into each other, and which have their own political cultures.
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Alternatively they just really like weaselsAnazina said:
Well they do say that a trait of rightwingers is luxuriating in their own ignorance.Sean_F said:Dura_Ace said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Divvie, the weird comfort some have in attacking people for being white (Lammy's comment on the Grenfell judge was unpleasant) or assuming white people can't be victims (which worked just tremendously in Rotherham) is inexplicable to me.
You need an intersectionalist analysis to understand Rotherham and similar cases. Read "Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Antidiscrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Antiracist Politics", by Kimberlé Crenshaw for an introduction.
I think I'd rather stick weasels down my trousers.0 -
Hammond seen as unacceptable to the Tory membership.Anazina said:
I thought that. Are these two semi-chumps now seen as the oracle? If so, why?PeterMannion said:How have we got to a point when the 'big beasts' are Hunt and Javid?! About as big and beastly as the Downing Street cat!
May PM
These two hold the other two great offices of state.0 -
Tories prefer to be promoting themselves opening foodbanks whilst pretending it is a great achievementScott_P said:
Unlike this one...Theuniondivvie said:Tbf this nationalist has been pretty quiet recently
https://twitter.com/ali_harper/status/1069287917359648770
https://twitter.com/UpTheWorkers/status/10693667483638456320 -
How long before UKIP allow Anne Marie Waters or whatever she was called, back in?0
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Maybe she's learnt from ruling out a General Election in early 2017?Polruan said:
May would generally refuse to categorically confirm today is Monday unless backed into a corner. It’s a stylistic thing.HYUFD said:May refuses to categorically rule out a second EU referendum
https://mobile.twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10695442363102412800 -
These kinds of things get the nutters on both sides going, but not good at sampling the less engaged voter.Pulpstar said:Ooh I might get a mini referendum before the vote !
https://twitter.com/JohnMannMP/status/10693219716855685150 -
Nothing is impossible, as we've repeatedly seen this year, but I think that's unlikely - Corbyn will want to have a shot at getting a deal more tailored to what Labour wants (e.g. fewer restrictions on state aid) by dropping something which Mrs May regarded as a red line (not having as permanent customs union). But if there is an election Labour will need to be pretty specific about it.kinabalu said:
What about (if there is a GE early 2019) Lab run on a promise to hold an immediate referendum between this deal and remain?NickPalmer said:John McDonnell at the Guardian event (where he incidentally said he was a Remainer both in the past and any future referendum) suggested that if Corbyn became PM and negotiated a revised deal, it would be appropriate to put that to a referendum.
Is that totally out of the question?0 -
I've asked him how he will do it.notme said:
These kinds of things get the nutters on both sides going, but not good at sampling the less engaged voter.Pulpstar said:Ooh I might get a mini referendum before the vote !
https://twitter.com/JohnMannMP/status/10693219716855685150 -
State aid rules (the open competition on a market wide basis) are as passionate to the EU project as free movement of labour. The EU give on that they'll be hell to pay in France etc.NickPalmer said:
Nothing is impossible, as we've repeatedly seen this year, but I think that's unlikely - Corbyn will want to have a shot at getting a deal more tailored to what Labour wants (e.g. fewer restrictions on state aid) by dropping something which Mrs May regarded as a red line (not having as permanent customs union). But if there is an election Labour will need to be pretty specific about it.kinabalu said:
What about (if there is a GE early 2019) Lab run on a promise to hold an immediate referendum between this deal and remain?NickPalmer said:John McDonnell at the Guardian event (where he incidentally said he was a Remainer both in the past and any future referendum) suggested that if Corbyn became PM and negotiated a revised deal, it would be appropriate to put that to a referendum.
Is that totally out of the question?0 -
Taking a taxi South of the river after dark ..........glw said:
I agree with that, but it still doesn't make much sense to talk about "Outer London" as a uniform block, when as you point out their politics probably has more to do with say the counties from which Outer London is composed.tlg86 said:Yes, but Havering looks out to the east of London and Richmond to the southwest. And in that regards they are more like their neighbours outside London than their neighbours in Central London.
Yes, but you wouldn't know that from listening to the commentariat which talks as though London has one settled view on any issue. It's way more diverse than that, and you can see huge changes in places and people mere minutes apart, and in the same town nevermind the same Borough.Sean_F said:It is an oversimplification. London is a series of towns and villages that have grown into each other, and which have their own political cultures.
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Exactly. Havering, and to some extent Barking, are the last vestiges of white working class London, which upon a time used to cover much of east and south London. Large parts of Redbridge were similar when I moved there in the 1980s, but Redbridge is now a multi-ethnic Borough with politics closer to those of Waltham Forest.Anazina said:
That's at least 50% garbage. Waltham Forest is an outer London borough yet is a fully fledged part of the capital. Ditto Richmond (in a different way). The fact that older Haveringites refuse to accept the 1965 boundary changes and still think they are part of Essex goes only a tiny way to making your point.Sean_F said:
The 12 Inner London boroughs (plus Haringey) have a very distinctive political culture.Xenon said:
London voted for less non-EU immigration and more from the EU.TOPPING said:
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
T
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.
The Outer London boroughs are much closer to the rest of the England than to Inner London in their political outlook.
The big difference in London is that the educated middle classes are more liberal than their counterparts in much of the Home Counties. So Boroughs like Richmond were more Remain than Surrey, Bromley more Remain than Kent, etc. Havering has less of an educated middle class and hence there wasn't much difference between it and Essex.0 -
You support immigration controls on the Irish border then?Philip_Thompson said:
Our domestic nation is the UK.williamglenn said:
Because it’s reciprocal and because they are part of our domestic economic market.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes I think you did. Why is it ethically and economically beneficially to apply free movement to the French, Germany, Italians, Poles and Romanians but not Australians, Candians, Americans, Singaporeans and Indians?TheJezziah said:
I think a lot of us missed that subtle anti racism message behind brexit in between the scare mongering about Turks and Syrians.Philip_Thompson said:
You do have to be a racist to think that free movement should apply to [predominantly white] Europeans and not other nations.Scott_P said:
You don't have to be a Libertarian to appreciate the benefits of free movementSean_F said:Most people aren't libertarians. If they were, we'd have a borderless world, with a flat tax rate of 10%.
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Also I don’t see how Labour can campaign on a referendum between an option they’ve rejected and remain - too easy to portray that as an anti-Brexit stance, and it doesn’t make clear what Labour are bringing to the table. By saying they will negotiate for a better deal and then give the people a say they can still sell a positive vision of magical Brexit to leavers while getting the support of remainders who see a party offering a referendum as the only way there’s a chance of stopping the process.NickPalmer said:
Nothing is impossible, as we've repeatedly seen this year, but I think that's unlikely - Corbyn will want to have a shot at getting a deal more tailored to what Labour wants (e.g. fewer restrictions on state aid) by dropping something which Mrs May regarded as a red line (not having as permanent customs union). But if there is an election Labour will need to be pretty specific about it.kinabalu said:
What about (if there is a GE early 2019) Lab run on a promise to hold an immediate referendum between this deal and remain?NickPalmer said:John McDonnell at the Guardian event (where he incidentally said he was a Remainer both in the past and any future referendum) suggested that if Corbyn became PM and negotiated a revised deal, it would be appropriate to put that to a referendum.
Is that totally out of the question?0 -
Considering child poverty is lower now than when they took office, that the changes to personal allowances and national living wage means those earning at the bottom have seen their wages rise quicker, oh and there's absolutely *ZERO* evidence to suggest that there's been any increase in undernourishment rates amongst children.malcolmg said:
Tories prefer to be promoting themselves opening foodbanks whilst pretending it is a great achievementScott_P said:
Unlike this one...Theuniondivvie said:Tbf this nationalist has been pretty quiet recently
https://twitter.com/ali_harper/status/1069287917359648770
https://twitter.com/UpTheWorkers/status/10693667483638456320 -
Spot on.IanB2 said:
Exactly. Havering, and to some extent Barking, are the last vestiges of white working class London, which upon a time used to cover much of east and south London. Large parts of Redbridge were similar when I moved there in the 1980s, but Redbridge is now a multi-ethnic Borough with politics closer to those of Waltham Forest.Anazina said:
That's at least 50% garbage. Waltham Forest is an outer London borough yet is a fully fledged part of the capital. Ditto Richmond (in a different way). The fact that older Haveringites refuse to accept the 1965 boundary changes and still think they are part of Essex goes only a tiny way to making your point.Sean_F said:
The 12 Inner London boroughs (plus Haringey) have a very distinctive political culture.Xenon said:
London voted for less non-EU immigration and more from the EU.TOPPING said:
Nothing if not bold in your logical contortions. I applaud you. Because all of the immigrants in London are fair, pearly-white skinned and yet for some reason London still voted Remain.Xenon said:
But leave means more non-EU immigration, so by your logic it's remain who are the nasty racists who don't like brown people.TOPPING said:
No young fella, I am equating being surrounded by furriners with not minding furriners.Xenon said:
Eh?TOPPING said:
I think it's fair to say that parts of London contain different cultures which have become predominant and don't seem to integrate.Xenon said:
Using a racist slur while accusing others of racism. Nice.grabcocque said:When you say "areas radically changed" you mean "I feel threatened because there are different people about".
Number one shouty gammon rant. Pretty much a textbook definition of racism.
T
And people can feel threatened when a different culture that does not integrate starts to become predominant in their towns. It doesn't make them all scum.
That of course would be the London which voted overwhelmingly to Remain.
Are you equating voting remain with integrating properly?
But always happy to explain my posts.
The Outer London boroughs are much closer to the rest of the England than to Inner London in their political outlook.
The big difference in London is that the educated middle classes are more liberal than their counterparts in much of the Home Counties. So Boroughs like Richmond were more Remain than Surrey, Bromley more Remain than Kent, etc. Havering has less of an educated middle class and hence there wasn't much difference between it and Essex.0
