politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Taking stock. Brexit – just where are we and what are the opti
Comments
-
Indeed it isRoger said:
Very good postCicero said:The political discourse over most of my lifetime has been "who are these lying liars who are lying to me". It is incredibly rare to get an interview that tells you who a politician and why they believe what they believe. No wonder we get the "you are all the same" on the doorstep. The fact is that on all sides of the political spectrum and, indeed the Brexit debate, there are genuinely honest and caring people trying to do their best for their constituents and the country- often at considerable personal cost.
That a small group of fanatics have been able to hijack politics, injecting poison and lies- yes Nigel "reach for my shotgun" Farage and Dominic "misleading" Cummings, I'm talking about you- is deeply regrettable. The media who create an equivalence between true and false in the interests of "balance" are at least as guilty as politicians themselves. The BBC prefers the "entertainment" of a political cock fight to the "informing" and "educating" part of their mandate, and that should give us considerable pause.
The victors in the referendum would still get their way under the terms of Mrs. Mays deal: the UK would leave the EU. However Brexit cannot be on the extreme terms put forward by the extremists. The closeness of the original result and constant polling since suggests that "the will of the people", in as far as we can tell seems pretty OK with a variety of halfway houses, but the insistence of the extremists to make no compromise and yet not put forward any coherent alternative of their own makes people like me more determined to resist any extreme Brexit and to go for a second referendum to validate that. I can reluctantly accept the deal on offer, in the hope we may limit the damage, and -yes- one day rejoin, since I think that is the best way for the future of the UK. If that deal is rejected then I will fight tooth and nail to get a second referendum and I expect that the voters would reject any Brexit then on offer.
Support for Brexit is collapsing because of the antics of the extremists, and unless a new willingness to compromise emerges from the Brexit camp, I think Remainers are totally justified in calling out the outrageous statements coming from the other camp: "you won, get over it". A fanatic is one who won't change their mind and won't change the subject, and the failure of Johnson, Davies, Raab et al is not the fault of Remainers, it is their own miscalculations that have discredited the Brexit process.
Mrs. May's plan is the only Brexit on offer, and if the Brexiteers can not accept compromise, we are totally entitled to scuttle the whole process- it is not in Britain's interest to leave anyway and the No-deal scenario is way beyond irresponsible.0 -
-
This is getting complex yet in essence is IMO simple. The public are asked if they want to leave the EU. They say yes we do. Since the public cannot negotiate the terms of the exit that job falls to the government. The government does the necessary and negotiates a deal to leave. It is by definition the best that they could achieve.
So we must now leave on that basis.
The people attempting to derail the process at this stage, be they right, left, leavers or remainers, are NOT respecting the referendum result. I happen to believe it should never have been held (since the public are ill equipped to decide such matters) but it was held and the result must now be honoured. I really do fear the consequences if it isn't.0 -
Morning all
To be filed under "the more things change, the more they stay the same"
https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1112/1009881-eec-documents/0 -
It was a reference to your post, not your views. My apologies if that wasn't entirely clear.Richard_Tyndall said:
A remarkably stupid comment from you Ian given my views. Maybe I should start referring to you as a Quisling and see how you like it.IanB2 said:
...says the Enoch Powell of Brexit?Richard_Tyndall said:
Again it will be neither democratic nor peaceful. You are utterly blind to the resentment and hatred that is building at the moment against the politicians because of the suspicion that they are planning to abandon Brexit.williamglenn said:
If it fails it will be given a democratic sendoff in a referendum.Richard_Tyndall said:
If it fails it won't be peaceful.RoyalBlue said:@AlastairMeeks - great thread header, thanks!
I think historians will write up Brexit as a peaceful failed revolution. While the status quo did not enjoy majority support, the revolutionaries failed to secure control of the executive and the legislature. Ultimately, the divide between the ‘clean slate’ and ‘trade off’ Brexiteers was ultimately unbridgeable, leading to a second referendum and a vote to Remain.
In a broader sense, the referenda and crises of 2010-2022 can be seen as the consequence of Blair’s botched constitutional and European reforms. The status quo will hold, but only after severe testing.
I don't think predicting violence on the streets is helpful or appropriate.0 -
NI is a good example of when politics is taken over by defining issues which do not align to the usual left-right spectrum.NickPalmer said:
I'm all for democracy but many NI voters seem bloody perverse, with Unionists voting only for headbangers and nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up. I know I'm generalising/oversimplifying, but aren't many younger NI voters getting a bit tired of this?Richard_Tyndall said:
With SF not taking their seats the actual number is 322.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it only takes Soubry, Wollaston and Grieve to vote down a No Deal Tory PM and they would lose their majority even with the DUP and fall from 328 seats combined to 325 ie under the 326 seats needed for a majorityalex. said:
Remind me what the favoured DUP solution to delivering Brexit is? Unless it’s no deal in which case Tory MPs will bring down their own Govt anyway.YellowSubmarine said:The DUP have actually read the FTPA. They can remove the Theresa May administration via VoNC then the very next moment say they will support an alternative Tory PM. The law then gives the Tories 14 days to win a confidence vote without a GE. In short the FTPA makes VoNC less Nuclear and therefore more usable. A handful of Tories with rock solid local bases who are undeselectable might join them.
Of course tonight's moves are about ensuring it doesn't get that far. If they can create a sense of inevitability about it Tory MPs might do it for them.
For example, most of the Conservative Party is way to the social left of the DUP but possibly to the economic right (owing to NI's relative deprivation/high public sector employment)0 -
Also easily overturned when you add Greening, Ken Clarke, Philip Lee and Nicky Morgan to those who would vote against a No Deal Brexit PMRichard_Tyndall said:
With SF not taking their seats the actual number is 322.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it only takes Soubry, Wollaston and Grieve to vote down a No Deal Tory PM and they would lose their majority even with the DUP and fall from 328 seats combined to 325 ie under the 326 seats needed for a majorityalex. said:
Remind me what the favoured DUP solution to delivering Brexit is? Unless it’s no deal in which case Tory MPs will bring down their own Govt anyway.YellowSubmarine said:The DUP have actually read the FTPA. They can remove the Theresa May administration via VoNC then the very next moment say they will support an alternative Tory PM. The law then gives the Tories 14 days to win a confidence vote without a GE. In short the FTPA makes VoNC less Nuclear and therefore more usable. A handful of Tories with rock solid local bases who are undeselectable might join them.
Of course tonight's moves are about ensuring it doesn't get that far. If they can create a sense of inevitability about it Tory MPs might do it for them.0 -
Not really (ie trite nonsense)TOPPING said:
Extremists = freedom fighters.Charles said:
Unfortunately it’s learned behaviour from how governments over the last 20 years have chosen to accommodate the extremists. It’s a perfectly rational response by votersNickPalmer said:
I'm all for democracy but many NI voters seem bloody perverse, with Unionists voting only for headbangers and nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up. I know I'm generalising/oversimplifying, but aren't many younger NI voters getting a bit tired of this?Richard_Tyndall said:
With SF not taking their seats the actual number is 322.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it only takes Soubry, Wollaston and Grieve to vote down a No Deal Tory PM and they would lose their majority even with the DUP and fall from 328 seats combined to 325 ie under the 326 seats needed for a majorityalex. said:
Remind me what the favoured DUP solution to delivering Brexit is? Unless it’s no deal in which case Tory MPs will bring down their own Govt anyway.YellowSubmarine said:The DUP have actually read the FTPA. They can remove the Theresa May administration via VoNC then the very next moment say they will support an alternative Tory PM. The law then gives the Tories 14 days to win a confidence vote without a GE. In short the FTPA makes VoNC less Nuclear and therefore more usable. A handful of Tories with rock solid local bases who are undeselectable might join them.
Of course tonight's moves are about ensuring it doesn't get that far. If they can create a sense of inevitability about it Tory MPs might do it for them.
I was think of the DUP/UUP and SF/SDLP shifts0 -
What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?0 -
Yes I agree - the path to a second referendum is the inclusion of a commitment to it in one or other party manifesto which is then voted upon at the next GE. After that point, should that party win, obvs, a second referendum would be justified.kinabalu said:This is getting complex yet in essence is IMO simple. The public are asked if they want to leave the EU. They say yes we do. Since the public cannot negotiate the terms of the exit that job falls to the government. The government does the necessary and negotiates a deal to leave. It is by definition the best that they could achieve.
So we must now leave on that basis.
The people attempting to derail the process at this stage, be they right, left, leavers or remainers, are NOT respecting the referendum result. I happen to believe it should never have been held (since the public are ill equipped to decide such matters) but it was held and the result must now be honoured. I really do fear the consequences if it isn't.0 -
In the NI context, being noisy and disruptive (DUP/SF) is perceived to have got results leading (in part) to the decline of the moderates (UUP/SDLP). Agree their Westminster influence is time-limited and an unfortunate joke by a capricious universeNickPalmer said:
No, I don't think that's true. You can argue that Britain has chosen to compromise with armed enemies (the IRA and to a lesser extent Protestant gangs) but nobody gives a thoiught to the absent Sinn Fein MPs (Labour will never have a leadership more friendly in principle to Irish nationalism, but they are devoting zero time to thinking about it) and the DUP are only influential due to an accident of electoral outcome. Someone like Bernadette Devlin - angry, disruptive, and noisy - would do nationalism much more good than silent absentees.Charles said:
Unfortunately it’s learned behaviour from how governments over the last 20 years have chosen to accommodate the extremists. It’s a perfectly rational response by votersNickPalmer said:
I'm all for democracy but many NI voters seem bloody perverse, with Unionists voting only for headbangers and nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up. I know I'm generalising/oversimplifying, but aren't many younger NI voters getting a bit tired of this?0 -
No you weren't. You were responding directly to the post which said "...nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up."Charles said:
Not really (ie trite nonsense)TOPPING said:
Extremists = freedom fighters.Charles said:
Unfortunately it’s learned behaviour from how governments over the last 20 years have chosen to accommodate the extremists. It’s a perfectly rational response by votersNickPalmer said:
I'm all for democracy but many NI voters seem bloody perverse, with Unionists voting only for headbangers and nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up. I know I'm generalising/oversimplifying, but aren't many younger NI voters getting a bit tired of this?Richard_Tyndall said:
With SF not taking their seats the actual number is 322.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it only takes Soubry, Wollaston and Grieve to vote down a No Deal Tory PM and they would lose their majority even with the DUP and fall from 328 seats combined to 325 ie under the 326 seats needed for a majorityalex. said:
Remind me what the favoured DUP solution to delivering Brexit is? Unless it’s no deal in which case Tory MPs will bring down their own Govt anyway.YellowSubmarine said:The DUP have actually read the FTPA. They can remove the Theresa May administration via VoNC then the very next moment say they will support an alternative Tory PM. The law then gives the Tories 14 days to win a confidence vote without a GE. In short the FTPA makes VoNC less Nuclear and therefore more usable. A handful of Tories with rock solid local bases who are undeselectable might join them.
Of course tonight's moves are about ensuring it doesn't get that far. If they can create a sense of inevitability about it Tory MPs might do it for them.
I was think of the DUP/UUP and SF/SDLP shifts
Don''t try to reframe the exchange, Charles.0 -
-
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.0 -
what about the trade dealTheWhiteRabbit said:
Spain can't actually veto the deal from the EU sideHYUFD said:Never mind the ERG, it looks like Spain could also veto the Deal as it stands over Gibraltar at Sunday's EU Summit.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/11/19/spain-threatens-to-veto-brexit-deal-over-gibraltar/
If so could possibly give May some room for further negotiation if Barnier cannot hold his side together first0 -
Their objection is that their hand is being forced (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) by the WA.malcolmg said:
what about the trade dealTheWhiteRabbit said:
Spain can't actually veto the deal from the EU sideHYUFD said:Never mind the ERG, it looks like Spain could also veto the Deal as it stands over Gibraltar at Sunday's EU Summit.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/11/19/spain-threatens-to-veto-brexit-deal-over-gibraltar/
If so could possibly give May some room for further negotiation if Barnier cannot hold his side together first
By the time of the long term partnership the picture would be very different.0 -
They can still scupper trade deal down the road, what is the betting UK get screwed on many things and Tories will give away Scottish fishing for sure.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Their objection is that their hand is being forced (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) by the WA.malcolmg said:
what about the trade dealTheWhiteRabbit said:
Spain can't actually veto the deal from the EU sideHYUFD said:Never mind the ERG, it looks like Spain could also veto the Deal as it stands over Gibraltar at Sunday's EU Summit.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/11/19/spain-threatens-to-veto-brexit-deal-over-gibraltar/
If so could possibly give May some room for further negotiation if Barnier cannot hold his side together first
By the time of the long term partnership the picture would be very different.0 -
No, it really isn't based on that. The options were severely limited by the promises of the various leave campaigns - and that's exactly what we're seeing atm with the ERGers.Richard_Tyndall said:Your whole thesis is based on the frankly moronic idea that no Brexit was possible rather than accepting that there were perfectly reasonable ways to leave the EU but the Remainer PM we have in charge made sure they were not on the table. You are the unbending fanatic rather than people like me who have always looked for reasonable and practical solutions based on compromise.
"You are the unbending fanatic"
No, I am not. I'd rather Brexit was over one way or the other so we can get on with the really important things that need doing in the country. I've never seen the EU membership as being that important, one way or t'other, and have said it's a shame that it's dominating political life atm.
Hardly 'a fanatic'.0 -
I find the most useful definition of fascism comes from Umberto EcoCharles said:
I think they have that the wrong way round.Beverley_C said:just a reminder....
fascism noun
fas·cism | \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
It’s a centralised autocratic government (etc) which uses “nation and often race” as a tool to achieve their political ends
I don’t see facism as a extreme form of nationalism - it’s more just a different form of collectivism
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
The idea that it isn't about nation and race, and is somehow about collectivism is wrong. Fascism is pro capitalism and pro private ownership, it just restricts who is allowed to be in the owner class on nation / race lines.0 -
-
Hague: "I have lived through more crises in British politics than I can remember, but I have never witnessed one more serious than this."0
-
I know it isn't the main thrust, but Sinn Fein's abstention strategy takes them out of the tough decisions every other party has to make on Brexit stuff in the commons.TOPPING said:
I'm sure they appreciate your advice on achieving their aim of a united Ireland, Richard.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I do wish SF would realise they can achieve a lot more for their eventual aims if they actually took up their seats rather than leaving their constituents unrepresented. Much as I would hate for it to be right now of courseNickPalmer said:
I'm all for democracy but many NI voters seem bloody perverse, with Unionists voting only for headbangers and nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up. I know I'm generalising/oversimplifying, but aren't many younger NI voters getting a bit tired of this?Richard_Tyndall said:
With SF not taking their seats the actual number is 322.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it only takes Soubry, Wollaston and Grieve to vote down a No Deal Tory PM and they would lose their majority even with the DUP and fall from 328 seats combined to 325 ie under the 326 seats needed for a majorityalex. said:
Remind me what the favoured DUP solution to delivering Brexit is? Unless it’s no deal in which case Tory MPs will bring down their own Govt anyway.YellowSubmarine said:The DUP have actually read the FTPA. They can remove the Theresa May administration via VoNC then the very next moment say they will support an alternative Tory PM. The law then gives the Tories 14 days to win a confidence vote without a GE. In short the FTPA makes VoNC less Nuclear and therefore more usable. A handful of Tories with rock solid local bases who are undeselectable might join them.
Of course tonight's moves are about ensuring it doesn't get that far. If they can create a sense of inevitability about it Tory MPs might do it for them.
In the context of the (very welcome) reduction in the level of violence in the Six Counties, SF (no not that SF. Or that one) is registering the continued struggle in the only meaningful way, namely, to boycott the administration which recognises Northern Ireland as a constituent part. If they take their seats they are acquiescing in that recognition.0 -
They don't need to scupper the trade deal; their concerns (principally that the WA envisages Gibraltar remaining British) can be dealt with.malcolmg said:
They can still scupper trade deal down the road, what is the betting UK get screwed on many things and Tories will give away Scottish fishing for sure.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Their objection is that their hand is being forced (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) by the WA.malcolmg said:
what about the trade dealTheWhiteRabbit said:
Spain can't actually veto the deal from the EU sideHYUFD said:Never mind the ERG, it looks like Spain could also veto the Deal as it stands over Gibraltar at Sunday's EU Summit.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/11/19/spain-threatens-to-veto-brexit-deal-over-gibraltar/
If so could possibly give May some room for further negotiation if Barnier cannot hold his side together first
By the time of the long term partnership the picture would be very different.
That being said, if they do just want to be annoying - they will incur the wrath of the other EU members and get the backstop which they don't want.0 -
Sound familiar?148grss said:
I find the most useful definition of fascism comes from Umberto EcoCharles said:
I think they have that the wrong way round.Beverley_C said:just a reminder....
fascism noun
fas·cism | \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
It’s a centralised autocratic government (etc) which uses “nation and often race” as a tool to achieve their political ends
I don’t see facism as a extreme form of nationalism - it’s more just a different form of collectivism
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
The idea that it isn't about nation and race, and is somehow about collectivism is wrong. Fascism is pro capitalism and pro private ownership, it just restricts who is allowed to be in the owner class on nation / race lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Umberto_Eco
"Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."0 -
Agreed. But there wasn't a timescale on the referendum, so there is no need to leave right now. We can pencil it in for say 2028 and then work out how to cope with the consequences.kinabalu said:This is getting complex yet in essence is IMO simple. The public are asked if they want to leave the EU. They say yes we do. Since the public cannot negotiate the terms of the exit that job falls to the government. The government does the necessary and negotiates a deal to leave. It is by definition the best that they could achieve.
So we must now leave on that basis.
The people attempting to derail the process at this stage, be they right, left, leavers or remainers, are NOT respecting the referendum result. I happen to believe it should never have been held (since the public are ill equipped to decide such matters) but it was held and the result must now be honoured. I really do fear the consequences if it isn't.0 -
You could use that to describe any party in this sorry saga, thus bringing the point full circlewilliamglenn said:
Sound familiar?148grss said:
I find the most useful definition of fascism comes from Umberto EcoCharles said:
I think they have that the wrong way round.Beverley_C said:just a reminder....
fascism noun
fas·cism | \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
It’s a centralised autocratic government (etc) which uses “nation and often race” as a tool to achieve their political ends
I don’t see facism as a extreme form of nationalism - it’s more just a different form of collectivism
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
The idea that it isn't about nation and race, and is somehow about collectivism is wrong. Fascism is pro capitalism and pro private ownership, it just restricts who is allowed to be in the owner class on nation / race lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Umberto_Eco
"Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."0 -
Yes, the UK should volunteer to take a big economic and diplomatic hit. Being poorer and irrelevant - thats what the people voted for.Charles said:
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.0 -
Of course but they are the other side of the DUP coin. They have their agenda and everyone and everything else is seen through that prism. As far as they are concerned this deal suits them fine (the Collins vs De Valera approach) and hence it is fortunate that they aren't being asked to do anything formally.Pulpstar said:
I know it isn't the main thrust, but Sinn Fein's abstention strategy takes them out of the tough decisions every other party has to make on Brexit stuff in the commons.TOPPING said:
I'm sure they appreciate your advice on achieving their aim of a united Ireland, Richard.Richard_Tyndall said:
Agreed. I do wish SF would realise they can achieve a lot more for their eventual aims if they actually took up their seats rather than leaving their constituents unrepresented. Much as I would hate for it to be right now of courseNickPalmer said:
I'm all for democracy but many NI voters seem bloody perverse, with Unionists voting only for headbangers and nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up. I know I'm generalising/oversimplifying, but aren't many younger NI voters getting a bit tired of this?Richard_Tyndall said:
With SF not taking their seats the actual number is 322.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it only takes Soubry, Wollaston and Grieve to vote down a No Deal Tory PM and they would lose their majority even with the DUP and fall from 328 seats combined to 325 ie under the 326 seats needed for a majorityalex. said:
Remind me what the favoured DUP solution to delivering Brexit is? Unless it’s no deal in which case Tory MPs will bring down their own Govt anyway.YellowSubmarine said:The DUP have actually read the FTPA. They can remove the Theresa May administration via VoNC then the very next moment say they will support an alternative Tory PM. The law then gives the Tories 14 days to win a confidence vote without a GE. In short the FTPA makes VoNC less Nuclear and therefore more usable. A handful of Tories with rock solid local bases who are undeselectable might join them.
Of course tonight's moves are about ensuring it doesn't get that far. If they can create a sense of inevitability about it Tory MPs might do it for them.
In the context of the (very welcome) reduction in the level of violence in the Six Counties, SF (no not that SF. Or that one) is registering the continued struggle in the only meaningful way, namely, to boycott the administration which recognises Northern Ireland as a constituent part. If they take their seats they are acquiescing in that recognition.0 -
@ Topping
Ok yes. If there were a GE and a party advocating another EU ref were to win a working majority then fair enough that would IMO be valid.
I guess that is not completely out of the question. Lab could just conceivably take that route.0 -
I think they are edging towards it but then that does shatter Jezza's dream of an EU-free country to play with.kinabalu said:@ Topping
Ok yes. If there were a GE and a party advocating another EU ref were to win a working majority then fair enough that would IMO be valid.
I guess that is not completely out of the question. Lab could just conceivably take that route.0 -
Are we discussing
i) "The people's vote"/James O'Brien/EU Referendum or
ii) Brexiteers/Nigel Farage/Parliament
here ?0 -
A technocratic PM dutifully implementing an emergency EU plan with a backdrop threat of total chaos. It's the sort of thing that normally goes down in Med states. But hey, whatever floats your boat.Charles said:
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.0 -
I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame0 -
Can someone explain this one to me? So the government were trying to get a court injunction to stop themselves finding out if they have the right to back out of Article 50?eek said:
Surely you'd want to know if that option was at your disposal or not?0 -
Not really. We need stability. Sign this deal or remain in the EURecidivist said:
Agreed. But there wasn't a timescale on the referendum, so there is no need to leave right now. We can pencil it in for say 2028 and then work out how to cope with the consequences.kinabalu said:This is getting complex yet in essence is IMO simple. The public are asked if they want to leave the EU. They say yes we do. Since the public cannot negotiate the terms of the exit that job falls to the government. The government does the necessary and negotiates a deal to leave. It is by definition the best that they could achieve.
So we must now leave on that basis.
The people attempting to derail the process at this stage, be they right, left, leavers or remainers, are NOT respecting the referendum result. I happen to believe it should never have been held (since the public are ill equipped to decide such matters) but it was held and the result must now be honoured. I really do fear the consequences if it isn't.0 -
I think it's a technical question about the justiciability of A50, more for future issues than this oneAllyPally_Rob said:
Can someone explain this one to me? So the government were trying to get a court injunction to stop themselves finding out if they have the right to back out of Article 50?eek said:
Surely you'd want to know if that option was at your disposal or not?0 -
Do you think that makes it acceptable to sell out a portion of the country and remove their rights?Big_G_NorthWales said:I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame
Hypothetically if May's deal did all that but also contained the proviso that non-whites would lose the right to elect people to shape the regulations that they're obliged to follow would that be ok?0 -
That's the choice, and politicians aren't able to be the ones to make it, which is the fundamental reason why a referendum is the best way forwards.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not really. We need stability. Sign this deal or remain in the EURecidivist said:
Agreed. But there wasn't a timescale on the referendum, so there is no need to leave right now. We can pencil it in for say 2028 and then work out how to cope with the consequences.kinabalu said:This is getting complex yet in essence is IMO simple. The public are asked if they want to leave the EU. They say yes we do. Since the public cannot negotiate the terms of the exit that job falls to the government. The government does the necessary and negotiates a deal to leave. It is by definition the best that they could achieve.
So we must now leave on that basis.
The people attempting to derail the process at this stage, be they right, left, leavers or remainers, are NOT respecting the referendum result. I happen to believe it should never have been held (since the public are ill equipped to decide such matters) but it was held and the result must now be honoured. I really do fear the consequences if it isn't.0 -
Art 50 is a piece of EU legislation, so it is quite right to ask the ECJ the question I think. I'd be surprised if it ruled it could be unilaterally withdrawn though.AllyPally_Rob said:
Can someone explain this one to me? So the government were trying to get a court injunction to stop themselves finding out if they have the right to back out of Article 50?eek said:
Surely you'd want to know if that option was at your disposal or not?0 -
I saw the Unionists voting for headbangers bit and glossed over the rest!TOPPING said:
No you weren't. You were responding directly to the post which said "...nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up."Charles said:
Not really (ie trite nonsense)TOPPING said:
Extremists = freedom fighters.Charles said:
Unfortunately it’s learned behaviour from how governments over the last 20 years have chosen to accommodate the extremists. It’s a perfectly rational response by votersNickPalmer said:
I'm all for democracy but many NI voters seem bloody perverse, with Unionists voting only for headbangers and nationalists voting only for people who don't turn up. I know I'm generalising/oversimplifying, but aren't many younger NI voters getting a bit tired of this?Richard_Tyndall said:
With SF not taking their seats the actual number is 322.HYUFD said:
Indeed, it only takes Soubry, Wollaston and Grieve to vote down a No Deal Tory PM and they would lose their majority even with the DUP and fall from 328 seats combined to 325 ie under the 326 seats needed for a majorityalex. said:
Remind me what the favoured DUP solution to delivering Brexit is? Unless it’s no deal in which case Tory MPs will bring down their own Govt anyway.YellowSubmarine said:The DUP have actually read the FTPA. They can remove the Theresa May administration via VoNC then the very next moment say they will support an alternative Tory PM. The law then gives the Tories 14 days to win a confidence vote without a GE. In short the FTPA makes VoNC less Nuclear and therefore more usable. A handful of Tories with rock solid local bases who are undeselectable might join them.
Of course tonight's moves are about ensuring it doesn't get that far. If they can create a sense of inevitability about it Tory MPs might do it for them.
I was think of the DUP/UUP and SF/SDLP shifts
Don''t try to reframe the exchange, Charles.
What I meant was what I said.0 -
It’s not pro free market capitalism148grss said:
I find the most useful definition of fascism comes from Umberto EcoCharles said:
I think they have that the wrong way round.Beverley_C said:just a reminder....
fascism noun
fas·cism | \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
It’s a centralised autocratic government (etc) which uses “nation and often race” as a tool to achieve their political ends
I don’t see facism as a extreme form of nationalism - it’s more just a different form of collectivism
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
The idea that it isn't about nation and race, and is somehow about collectivism is wrong. Fascism is pro capitalism and pro private ownership, it just restricts who is allowed to be in the owner class on nation / race lines.
It had boards combining unions, management and government representatives acting in the interests of stakeholders.0 -
What are you talking about.Philip_Thompson said:
Do you think that makes it acceptable to sell out a portion of the country and remove their rights?Big_G_NorthWales said:I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame
Hypothetically if May's deal did all that but also contained the proviso that non-whites would lose the right to elect people to shape the regulations that they're obliged to follow would that be ok?0 -
That’s reasonable enoughwilliamglenn said:
Sound familiar?148grss said:
I find the most useful definition of fascism comes from Umberto EcoCharles said:
I think they have that the wrong way round.Beverley_C said:just a reminder....
fascism noun
fas·cism | \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
It’s a centralised autocratic government (etc) which uses “nation and often race” as a tool to achieve their political ends
I don’t see facism as a extreme form of nationalism - it’s more just a different form of collectivism
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
The idea that it isn't about nation and race, and is somehow about collectivism is wrong. Fascism is pro capitalism and pro private ownership, it just restricts who is allowed to be in the owner class on nation / race lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#Umberto_Eco
"Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."
0 -
It may well be and if the deal fails our mps need to stop no deal come what maywilliamglenn said:
That's the choice, and politicians aren't able to be the ones to make it, which is the fundamental reason why a referendum is the best way forwards.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Not really. We need stability. Sign this deal or remain in the EURecidivist said:
Agreed. But there wasn't a timescale on the referendum, so there is no need to leave right now. We can pencil it in for say 2028 and then work out how to cope with the consequences.kinabalu said:This is getting complex yet in essence is IMO simple. The public are asked if they want to leave the EU. They say yes we do. Since the public cannot negotiate the terms of the exit that job falls to the government. The government does the necessary and negotiates a deal to leave. It is by definition the best that they could achieve.
So we must now leave on that basis.
The people attempting to derail the process at this stage, be they right, left, leavers or remainers, are NOT respecting the referendum result. I happen to believe it should never have been held (since the public are ill equipped to decide such matters) but it was held and the result must now be honoured. I really do fear the consequences if it isn't.0 -
Politicians over the last 40 years acted without authority. That needs to be unwound because they have now been instructed to do soRochdalePioneers said:
Yes, the UK should volunteer to take a big economic and diplomatic hit. Being poorer and irrelevant - thats what the people voted for.Charles said:
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.0 -
No a negotiated deal, involving compromiseJonathan said:
A technocratic PM dutifully implementing an emergency EU plan with a backdrop threat of total chaos. It's the sort of thing that normally goes down in Med states. But hey, whatever floats your boat.Charles said:
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.
0 -
As I understand it, the actual withdrawal agreement - the agreed deal - largely maintains the status quo on migration and trade. We follow the rules, but have no say in making them. It gives us the space to negotiate a trade deal which might do all the things you identify.Big_G_NorthWales said:I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame
0 -
The bigest silliness in all this is the collective bowel movement over 'no deal' (cue dramatic music). We don't have a 'deal' with anyone else. It's at best nice to have.0
-
You have no problem with me losing rights as a result of Brexit that people in Northern Ireland can keep. So what’s the problem?Philip_Thompson said:
Do you think that makes it acceptable to sell out a portion of the country and remove their rights?Big_G_NorthWales said:I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame
Hypothetically if May's deal did all that but also contained the proviso that non-whites would lose the right to elect people to shape the regulations that they're obliged to follow would that be ok?
0 -
There is a Macchiavellian reason to oppose this case.AllyPally_Rob said:
Can someone explain this one to me? So the government were trying to get a court injunction to stop themselves finding out if they have the right to back out of Article 50?eek said:
Surely you'd want to know if that option was at your disposal or not?
Hypothetically if the government wanted this power in order to reset negotiations and get 2 more years for talks and was pushing for that to happen the ECJ would likely want to oppose that. Many have suggested the ECJ will rule against in order to prevent a hokey-cokey Brexit.
However if the momentum for this is entirely coming from Europhiles the ECJ is going to be a lot more sympathetic.
So oddly enough opposing this option could help them get this option.0 -
New profile pic malc? Preparing for total war..malcolmg said:
They can still scupper trade deal down the road, what is the betting UK get screwed on many things and Tories will give away Scottish fishing for sure.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Their objection is that their hand is being forced (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) by the WA.malcolmg said:
what about the trade dealTheWhiteRabbit said:
Spain can't actually veto the deal from the EU sideHYUFD said:Never mind the ERG, it looks like Spain could also veto the Deal as it stands over Gibraltar at Sunday's EU Summit.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/11/19/spain-threatens-to-veto-brexit-deal-over-gibraltar/
If so could possibly give May some room for further negotiation if Barnier cannot hold his side together first
By the time of the long term partnership the picture would be very different.0 -
Quite ! NI has cake (Freedom of movement via Irish passports) and gets to eat it (No Freedom of movement for EU citizens other than Irish ones) !SouthamObserver said:
You have no problem with me losing rights as a result of Brexit that people in Northern Ireland can keep. So what’s the problem?Philip_Thompson said:
Do you think that makes it acceptable to sell out a portion of the country and remove their rights?Big_G_NorthWales said:I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame
Hypothetically if May's deal did all that but also contained the proviso that non-whites would lose the right to elect people to shape the regulations that they're obliged to follow would that be ok?
I still can't quite believe May has faced the DUP down though. A brave move indeed
0 -
No Deal (exit to WTO rules) is the default if the May Deal falls.0
-
It is default but will not happen. The HOC overwhelmingly will prevent no dealgeoffw said:No Deal (exit to WTO rules) is the default if the May Deal falls.
0 -
How?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is default but will not happen. The HOC overwhelmingly will prevent no dealgeoffw said:No Deal (exit to WTO rules) is the default if the May Deal falls.
0 -
If we'd spent the last years preparing for no deal and stating that it was the default, and that we'd like a deal, but weren't particularly fussed because we'd be fine either way, we would both not need a deal, and also have a fabulous one.geoffw said:No Deal (exit to WTO rules) is the default if the May Deal falls.
0 -
Almost certainly a second referendum. That of course could confirm no deal but it is unlikelygeoffw said:
How?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is default but will not happen. The HOC overwhelmingly will prevent no dealgeoffw said:No Deal (exit to WTO rules) is the default if the May Deal falls.
0 -
So, it turns out a bad deal is better than no deal. I agree, but remember when people like you didn’t, Charles!Charles said:
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.
0 -
-
0
-
Option 1 - Mrs May opts to lose the next election by calling a referendumgeoffw said:
How?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is default but will not happen. The HOC overwhelmingly will prevent no dealgeoffw said:No Deal (exit to WTO rules) is the default if the May Deal falls.
Option 2 - Mrs May resigns and a new leader goes for a better deal - e.g. Tusk's Cananda+++
Option 3- Mrs May calls a GE.
Option 4- Mrs May trots off to Brussels to be told to do one and then goes to 1,2 or 3.
0 -
Melanie Phillips’s ignorance should be shocking, but it is actually totally unsurprising.
https://twitter.com/imincorrigible/status/1064789033144987649?s=210 -
What right are you losing that people living in Northern Ireland keep that I am supporting? You could move tomorrow to Northern Ireland if you did so what rights would moved-to-NI-SouthamObserver keep over remained-in-GB-SouthamObserver?SouthamObserver said:
You have no problem with me losing rights as a result of Brexit that people in Northern Ireland can keep. So what’s the problem?Philip_Thompson said:
Do you think that makes it acceptable to sell out a portion of the country and remove their rights?Big_G_NorthWales said:I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame
Hypothetically if May's deal did all that but also contained the proviso that non-whites would lose the right to elect people to shape the regulations that they're obliged to follow would that be ok?0 -
Yes, well, these may be the "prizes" IF we agree the future economic relationship post-Transition but there are clearly a few less palatable options out there.Big_G_NorthWales said:I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame
As for yesterday's triumphalist spin on her speech at the CBI, it's clear there is a battle looming over migration policy with business who clearly want to keep a near-open door policy in order to keep the supply of cheap labour coming in to promote economic growth.
This is the Merkel policy in effect which reduces migration to an economic issue and renders it a positive in terms of maintaining economic growth and low inflation.
I doubt very much May will be able to sell the status quo or similar on migration but it's clearly what some big businesses would like.0 -
Oh, I fully agree.Luckyguy1983 said:
If we'd spent the last years preparing for no deal and stating that it was the default, and that we'd like a deal, but weren't particularly fussed because we'd be fine either way, we would both not need a deal, and also have a fabulous one.geoffw said:No Deal (exit to WTO rules) is the default if the May Deal falls.
0 -
One could argue that wiser heads have prevailed in the ERG - the time for a VONC is not now but after May loses the commons vote.
She would prefer to face one immediately, win and prevent another challenge for 12 months.
Always do what your enemy least prefers.0 -
Mr. P, not a revolution. Whilst revolutionaries eating themselves is a historical reference worth returning to, the revolutions succeeded, only to shortly fall prey to another variety. The ERG has not achieved a revolution. They've, at the moment, achieved a failed rebellion.0
-
The breakfasts aren't necessarily too bad, for example a Sausage McMuffins is only 370 calories.DecrepitJohnL said:
Warren Buffett breakfasts on McMuffins, and has made it to 88 (years and billions).MikeSmithson said:
Well Trump is a great fan Big MacsSquareRoot said:
There is a McDonalds up the road. Its been there for 15 yrs, I think I've had one three times in the last 15 yrs and not had one in the last ten. Its useful on hot days for an ice cream. I avoid burger chains and fizzy pop, very bad for your health imho.Casino_Royale said:
Once every six months I succumb to BK or McDonalds.Pulpstar said:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46243072
Suing McDonalds but still eats there twice a month ?!?
Tastes good whilst I’m eating it. In less than an hour, I feel groggy, my stomach objects and it feels like I’ve ingested an oil slick and fatberg rolled into one.0 -
Not sure featuring a lack of energy is a great recommendation.edmundintokyo said:
The breakfasts aren't necessarily too bad, for example a Sausage McMuffins is only 370 calories.DecrepitJohnL said:
Warren Buffett breakfasts on McMuffins, and has made it to 88 (years and billions).MikeSmithson said:
Well Trump is a great fan Big MacsSquareRoot said:
There is a McDonalds up the road. Its been there for 15 yrs, I think I've had one three times in the last 15 yrs and not had one in the last ten. Its useful on hot days for an ice cream. I avoid burger chains and fizzy pop, very bad for your health imho.Casino_Royale said:
Once every six months I succumb to BK or McDonalds.Pulpstar said:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46243072
Suing McDonalds but still eats there twice a month ?!?
Tastes good whilst I’m eating it. In less than an hour, I feel groggy, my stomach objects and it feels like I’ve ingested an oil slick and fatberg rolled into one.0 -
Its not a bad dealSouthamObserver said:
So, it turns out a bad deal is better than no deal. I agree, but remember when people like you didn’t, Charles!Charles said:
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.0 -
It just gets funnier by the minute.Scott_P said:And the revolution consumes itself...
https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/10648229880575836160 -
This is an ok deal not a bad dealSouthamObserver said:
So, it turns out a bad deal is better than no deal. I agree, but remember when people like you didn’t, Charles!Charles said:
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.
It gets us most of what we want, gives up some stuff and costs some money0 -
Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/0 -
Its only loonies and dreamers who expected anything more from the EUCharles said:
This is an ok deal not a bad dealSouthamObserver said:
So, it turns out a bad deal is better than no deal. I agree, but remember when people like you didn’t, Charles!Charles said:
The ERG are idiotsRochdalePioneers said:What do the DUP care about Corbyn? "They CAN'T work with him" I have been reading on here for years. Yet the very same DUP sat in government with the IRA. If they can work with McGuinness they can cope with Corbyn.
Once you demolish this final totem that hard line Tories have clung to what else is there left?
No deal is better than a bad deal? Or it was, until the same people now say a bad deal is better than no deal. Yet throughout the constant has been "the will of the people". The will for what? No Deal? A bad deal? The unicorn deal?
This is not a great deal - I think May made mistakes. But it’s an ok deal and there’s no time to hold out for anything better.
You take it and move on.
It gets us most of what we want, gives up some stuff and costs some money0 -
I am not in the ERG and never will be but looking at it from their point of view post the vote is the obvious time to strike. If the deal passes a new unity leader is needed as perversely if it fails.TGOHF said:One could argue that wiser heads have prevailed in the ERG - the time for a VONC is not now but after May loses the commons vote.
She would prefer to face one immediately, win and prevent another challenge for 12 months.
Always do what your enemy least prefers.
But intelligence does not seem to feature highly in the ERG
0 -
No problem - May and Robbins will give them what they want with a bow on it.geoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/0 -
It would if it was not seriousrottenborough said:
It just gets funnier by the minute.Scott_P said:And the revolution consumes itself...
https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/10648229880575836160 -
Mr. Flashman (deceased), quite. May's approach of prevaricating at home and capitulating overseas has been horrendous.0
-
Thats good though isnt it as it allows us to be portrayed as the victims here..geoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/0 -
The guaranteed freedom to live, work and study in the EU, for a start.Philip_Thompson said:
What right are you losing that people living in Northern Ireland keep that I am supporting? You could move tomorrow to Northern Ireland if you did so what rights would moved-to-NI-SouthamObserver keep over remained-in-GB-SouthamObserver?SouthamObserver said:
You have no problem with me losing rights as a result of Brexit that people in Northern Ireland can keep. So what’s the problem?Philip_Thompson said:
Do you think that makes it acceptable to sell out a portion of the country and remove their rights?Big_G_NorthWales said:I may be wrong but TM deal does the following
Controls immigration
Guarantees EU and UK citizens rights
Keeps trade flowing while negotiating a trade deal
Exits the CFP and Farming policy
Ensures visa free travel
Keeps EHIC
Keeps free roaming in the EU
And no doubt more.
So our Parliament is going to bring it down in flames over extreme views, political posturing, and downright ignorance.
They should hold their heads in utter shame
Hypothetically if May's deal did all that but also contained the proviso that non-whites would lose the right to elect people to shape the regulations that they're obliged to follow would that be ok?
0 -
The Blitzkrieg is coming TUDTheuniondivvie said:
New profile pic malc? Preparing for total war..malcolmg said:
They can still scupper trade deal down the road, what is the betting UK get screwed on many things and Tories will give away Scottish fishing for sure.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Their objection is that their hand is being forced (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) by the WA.malcolmg said:
what about the trade dealTheWhiteRabbit said:
Spain can't actually veto the deal from the EU sideHYUFD said:Never mind the ERG, it looks like Spain could also veto the Deal as it stands over Gibraltar at Sunday's EU Summit.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2018/11/19/spain-threatens-to-veto-brexit-deal-over-gibraltar/
If so could possibly give May some room for further negotiation if Barnier cannot hold his side together first
By the time of the long term partnership the picture would be very different.0 -
It cannot on its own. The deal is QMVgeoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/0 -
As it's for Pedro the fisherman, there should be a stern too.TGOHF said:
No problem - May and Robbins will give them what they want with a bow on it.geoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/
0 -
A more productive approach would have been to get in say 40 letters then say that's plenty for now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am not in the ERG and never will be but looking at it from their point of view post the vote is the obvious time to strike. If the deal passes a new unity leader is needed as perversely if it fails.TGOHF said:One could argue that wiser heads have prevailed in the ERG - the time for a VONC is not now but after May loses the commons vote.
She would prefer to face one immediately, win and prevent another challenge for 12 months.
Always do what your enemy least prefers.
But intelligence does not seem to feature highly in the ERG
0 -
When they talk of sabotage I doubt that the niceties of voting rules come into play.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It cannot on its own. The deal is QMVgeoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/
0 -
The ERG conference is full on denial that there is absolutely any problem with the EU and if they negotiated all their unicorns would come in place as the EU have to agree
0 -
Yes I suspect that the Royal Navy are going to be quite busy protecting our fishing waters - if May doesn't give access away as part of the next phase.geoffw said:
When they talk of sabotage I doubt that the niceties of voting rules come into play.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It cannot on its own. The deal is QMVgeoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/
0 -
That is plainly silly languagegeoffw said:
When they talk of sabotage I doubt that the niceties of voting rules come into play.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It cannot on its own. The deal is QMVgeoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/0 -
Ah, 'capitulation'Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Flashman (deceased), quite. May's approach of prevaricating at home and capitulating overseas has been horrendous.
Another leaver with fevered brow ...0 -
Mr. Jessop, what does that add to the debate? It's just insinuating 'you're wrong, you are, you leaver, you'.
To clarify, so you can respond to the substance, I think it's a capitulation to have agreed to the backstop, to have agreed to the sequencing (which was dumb because the Irish border can only be known once we know the long term settlement), and to have agreed that Northern Ireland must be chained more closely to the EU.0 -
The gaslighting of leavers on here is all a bit sad.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, 'capitulation'Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Flashman (deceased), quite. May's approach of prevaricating at home and capitulating overseas has been horrendous.
Another leaver with fevered brow ...
0 -
Peter Lilley reckoned it would take 10 minutes for a trade deal with the EU.....what is he on?Big_G_NorthWales said:The ERG conference is full on denial that there is absolutely any problem with the EU and if they negotiated all their unicorns would come in place as the EU have to agree
0 -
Surely the deal will need to be ratified in the Cortes.?.......sounds like a veto to me (though sSnchez's voting numbers are weak in that chamber)Big_G_NorthWales said:
It cannot on its own. The deal is QMVgeoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/0 -
The more I listen to Peter Lilley the more my head sinks in my hand.swing_voter said:
Peter Lilley reckoned it would take 10 minutes for a trade deal with the EU.....what is he on?Big_G_NorthWales said:The ERG conference is full on denial that there is absolutely any problem with the EU and if they negotiated all their unicorns would come in place as the EU have to agree
0 -
Spain cannot take the deal down on its own under QMVswing_voter said:
Surely the deal will need to be ratified in the Cortes.?.......sounds like a veto to me (though sSnchez's voting numbers are weak in that chamber)Big_G_NorthWales said:
It cannot on its own. The deal is QMVgeoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/0 -
I believe saying we've capitulated is overwrought febrile rubbish. It's a negotiation. We've gone into the negotiation in an obviously weak position, but we've got a deal. We've given up some points - most out of necessity.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jessop, what does that add to the debate? It's just insinuating 'you're wrong, you are, you leaver, you'.
To clarify, so you can respond to the substance, I think it's a capitulation to have agreed to the backstop, to have agreed to the sequencing (which was dumb because the Irish border can only be known once we know the long term settlement), and to have agreed that Northern Ireland must be chained more closely to the EU.
Calling it a 'capitulation' is inaccurate, and hardly helps matters. It's rubbish.
Edit: and so is the idea we could have got much of a better deal. We're in a weak position, and much of the reason for that is down to the nature of the leave campaigns.0 -
LOL, we will not have any , Tories will give them away at the drop of a hat. All those poor suckers in the North East that were taken in yet again by Tories with forked tongues.TGOHF said:
Yes I suspect that the Royal Navy are going to be quite busy protecting our fishing waters - if May doesn't give access away as part of the next phase.geoffw said:
When they talk of sabotage I doubt that the niceties of voting rules come into play.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It cannot on its own. The deal is QMVgeoffw said:Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister, has said Madrid will sabotage the Brexit deal unless it is given a veto over the future UK-EU trade deal applying to Gibraltar as his foreign minister said a second referendum in Britain would be undemocratic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/20/brexit-latest-justice-minister-says-mps-will-respond-business/0 -
LOL. A leaver called me an 'unbending fanatic' on this very thread. Of course, it's alright for leavers to use such terms ...TGOHF said:
The gaslighting of leavers on here is all a bit sad.JosiasJessop said:
Ah, 'capitulation'Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Flashman (deceased), quite. May's approach of prevaricating at home and capitulating overseas has been horrendous.
Another leaver with fevered brow ...
Edit: And I should add that I'm rather peeved that leavers - who have led to this potential disaster - are generally not accepting any blame for the mess we find ourselves in.
It's all someone else's fault.0
