politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit: Not the End. Not the Beginning of the End. Perhaps, th
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit: Not the End. Not the Beginning of the End. Perhaps, the End of the Beginning.
The UK’s relationship with the EU has never been cosy, and, as you may have noticed, it’s recently become incredibly contentious. Worse still, and regardless of what happens next, this is going to dominate politics in the UK for decades.
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Beginning of the end, surely0
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So we’re fucked either way and will continue to argue about Brexit until something worse happens or there is nothing left.0
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FPT:
Corbyn was wearing a dress?Recidivist said:ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/1061544437313089537
Is he complaining about it? I quite like it. But then I don’t have a problem with Corbyn’s dress either.ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/10615444373130895370 -
The El Alamein stage of Brexit.
I'm sure there are Brexiteers hoping for final victory with the Septics & Russkis doing some heavy lifting.0 -
A Northern Irishman once summed up the Troubles thus:Jonathan said:So we’re fucked either way and will continue to argue about Brexit until something worse happens or there is nothing left.
'When the last one of us faces the last one of them across the ruins of Belfast, victory will go to the survivor.'0 -
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There doesn’t seem to be anything you can say about him that somebody somewhere won’t believe.ydoethur said:FPT:
Corbyn was wearing a dress?Recidivist said:ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/1061544437313089537
Is he complaining about it? I quite like it. But then I don’t have a problem with Corbyn’s dress either.ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/10615444373130895370 -
Now that question comes across as really kinky. I've never heard of poppies being used for fucking before.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
So for those of us not up to speed, who won the Lady Penelope war?
Good header, btw Mr D.0 -
Thanks for the header, Mr D!0
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Clearly it's better to skirt the issue. Although apparently he should have worn a frock (coat).Recidivist said:
There doesn’t seem to be anything you can say about him that somebody somewhere won’t believe.ydoethur said:FPT:
Corbyn was wearing a dress?Recidivist said:ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/1061544437313089537
Is he complaining about it? I quite like it. But then I don’t have a problem with Corbyn’s dress either.ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/10615444373130895370 -
No spoilers!SandyRentool said:So for those of us not up to speed, who won the Lady Penelope war?
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So, Mr. Dancer, history tells us we have decades of Brexit wars ahead of us?
Yay!0 -
Poppywatch for all your poppy needs.TheScreamingEagles said:
https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1061605190728630272?s=190 -
It was actually the chap stood next to Jezza who was wearing a skirt...ydoethur said:
Clearly it's better to skirt the issue. Although apparently he should have worn a frock (coat).Recidivist said:
There doesn’t seem to be anything you can say about him that somebody somewhere won’t believe.ydoethur said:FPT:
Corbyn was wearing a dress?Recidivist said:ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/1061544437313089537
Is he complaining about it? I quite like it. But then I don’t have a problem with Corbyn’s dress either.ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/10615444373130895370 -
That Corbyn Cenotaph clothing issue - G.O.Y.S. 'n the hood?0
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Vince Cable was wearing a skirt? This story is getting stranger and stranger.SandyRentool said:
It was actually the chap stood next to Jezza who was wearing a skirt...ydoethur said:
Clearly it's better to skirt the issue. Although apparently he should have worn a frock (coat).Recidivist said:
There doesn’t seem to be anything you can say about him that somebody somewhere won’t believe.ydoethur said:FPT:
Corbyn was wearing a dress?Recidivist said:ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/1061544437313089537
Is he complaining about it? I quite like it. But then I don’t have a problem with Corbyn’s dress either.ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/10615444373130895370 -
FPT
@Anazina said:
"There is probably a potential lead from a brave writer about how our unhealthy obsession with the last century's world wars has led us to the national self harm that is Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history"
OK - I'll bite. (In two parts for length)
Part One
Part of the reason why these remembrance ceremonies have gained in attendance in recent years (as opposed to, say, 30 or 40 years ago) is because the generations that have first-hand memories are disappearing. So we are conscious not just of the history they commemorate but that we are losing our direct links to those who were involved. That adds a special poignancy to the occasions, a feeling that we perhaps need to capture the stories and memories before they finally disappear and become history rather than memory. And that because there are so few of them we should honour those who remain.
Once they have passed into history then there may well come a time when we no longer need such ceremonies. But I doubt that we will ever have a world without wars and there is a case for remembering those who do serve in such wars, even if we do not need to go overboard with the whole thing. Remembering does not mean storing up grievances. It's what we do with our memories which matters not having them in the first place.
I do strongly feel that we do not know enough about our history and the history of other countries and that has led to dreadful policy errors, stupid politics and a deafness and insensitivity to the concerns of many voters. We need more knowledge of history not less. (How can you possibly understand Islamism without understanding one of its roots in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire following WW1 and what that meant for the Middle East. When Bin Laden talked about the collapse of the Caliphate who really understood what he said and why it mattered. And yet those historical grievances fuel much of the issues which inflame the Middle East. There WW1 and WW2 still have real resonance for people and current politics beyond simply remembering the fallen. We need to understand this.) But it needs to be taught and understood well. It is too often presented in a cartoonish and ill-informed way which does nothing for public understanding or discourse.
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I think he just needs a better coat, otherwise he looks fine!Alistair said:
Poppywatch for all your poppy needs.TheScreamingEagles said:
twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1061605190728630272?s=190 -
PART TWO
All countries have myths about their history - see, for instance, France with its necessary (but untrue) belief that it had a Resistance which helped liberate it as opposed to being a country which happily collaborated with Germany and resented the fact that it did have to be liberated by others. Britain too has its myths and to some extent these are necessary. The history of the 20th century - if laid out in all its brutal reality - would not be kind to any country. Take the vast numbers of Soviet war dead: many of those were killed by the Soviets themselves and belonged to countries which did not want to be taken over by Russia. They were not all heroic Russians fighting Nazis.
Equally, the very different experiences of countries shapes their attitude to developments now. It does seem to me that Britain's experience of two world wars and, crucially, the inter-war period, even more than WW2, is one reason why Britain (or a very significant part of the population) has never felt at a gut level that it is necessary to move on from the nation state, at least not in the same way that other countries have - Italy, for instance, which has never had a nation state worth speaking of. That feeling is one of the tributaries which may have contributed to Brexit though it could equally have contributed to a view that a different but still close association with the EU is needed, as opposed to the "we'll go our own way like it's the 16th century again" nonsense being peddled by some. But Brexit was caused by many things and feeling proud of our role in WW2 is among the least important of those reasons, IMO.
But if one wanted to be really brave one could also say that the EU has been created because of an unhealthy obsession with the last century's world wars and a misunderstanding about their cause. In fact, a writer has done just that (see Yoram Hazony's "The Virtues of Nationalism"). One could argue that it was empires which fought (WW1) and countries which were not liberal democracies (WW2) and that the answer to each is not to recreate quasi-Empires or abolish nation states but to create strong liberal democracies within co-operative nation states. In many ways, the EU is a good answer to the questions which arose 50 or more years ago but may not - in its current form - be as good an answer to the questions which face us now or will face us in the future.
Or that it was a lack of self-confidence which led Britain into the EU and that lack led to so many of the strategic errors which have resulted in Brexit - see this by a somewhat less brave writer - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/18/britains-original-sins/.
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I think Morris has it right. It's a festering sore that is never going to heal. The country is just too split down the middle for one side to win decisively. Deep joy.0
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The country has always been split over Europe. But until a few years ago nobody cared much about it and it wasn't until 2016 that it suddenly became very important.twistedfirestopper3 said:I think Morris has it right. It's a festering sore that is never going to heal. The country is just too split down the middle for one side to win decisively. Deep joy.
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Morris Dancer is sadly right. For the reasons he is right you have to go right back over the many years of getting closer into the EU without wholehearted consent of the population. The insoluble difficulty is not the referendum of 2016, but the repeated failures to hold them at crucial points over the last 30-40 years over issues such as the Euro, the Lisbon Treaty, Maastricht and so on. Like this excellent thread I can't see a short way back from the divisions of this. This, and not the present crisis, is the great post war failure of governance.0
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Thanks for this MD
I do not see anyone content in the near future for all the reasons given
If I thought remain would see the restoration of order I would be 100% behind it but the damage has been done to the relationship and you cannot put the genie back in the box.
I have no idea where we all go from here but some compromise on language and positions is needed by everyone.
Remainers, leavers, and even the uncommitted are responsible for the dreadful unhappiness in our Country and a moment of reflection on today, of all days, would not go amiss
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You have clearly been at the vicar's sherry, what with talk of poppies and fucking and Cable in a skirt. It was a Scot in a kilt. Calling kilts skirts is probably an appalling social solecism north of Carlisle.ydoethur said:
Vince Cable was wearing a skirt? This story is getting stranger and stranger.SandyRentool said:
It was actually the chap stood next to Jezza who was wearing a skirt...ydoethur said:
Clearly it's better to skirt the issue. Although apparently he should have worn a frock (coat).Recidivist said:
There doesn’t seem to be anything you can say about him that somebody somewhere won’t believe.ydoethur said:FPT:
Corbyn was wearing a dress?Recidivist said:ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/1061544437313089537
Is he complaining about it? I quite like it. But then I don’t have a problem with Corbyn’s dress either.ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/10615444373130895370 -
Ah, now I understand. You've got to admire the - I was going to say hardihood, but perhaps not - the toughness of somebody who would wear a kilt in these conditions. The Highland regiments hated wearing kilts in the trenches.Cyclefree said:
You have clearly been at the vicar's sherry, what with talk of poppies and fucking and Cable in a skirt. It was a Scot in a kilt. Calling kilts skirts is probably an appalling social solecism north of Carlisle.ydoethur said:
Vince Cable was wearing a skirt? This story is getting stranger and stranger.SandyRentool said:
It was actually the chap stood next to Jezza who was wearing a skirt...ydoethur said:
Clearly it's better to skirt the issue. Although apparently he should have worn a frock (coat).Recidivist said:
There doesn’t seem to be anything you can say about him that somebody somewhere won’t believe.ydoethur said:FPT:
Corbyn was wearing a dress?Recidivist said:ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/1061544437313089537
Is he complaining about it? I quite like it. But then I don’t have a problem with Corbyn’s dress either.ydoethur said:
Quite amusing that a man called Austin is complaining about the Union Jack, by all the Powers!Theuniondivvie said:Why, oh why can't Corbyn just subscribe to the respectful, restrained formality that's the essence of remembrance?
https://twitter.com/Mebigaustin/status/1061544437313089537
Sadly I haven't imbibed any of the Vicar's sherry. Not a drop has passed my lips, nor will it before the evening service.0 -
I commend the article by Duncan-Smith and Patterson in today’s ST. Compelling evidence politics really is open and welcoming to people of all levels of intelligence.0
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One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears0 -
The country has always been split. But until a few years ago nobody much noticed or cared. Then those who were obsessed with the EU were successful in making the EU the focus of those discontents (even though many of them had nothing to do with the EU) and in 2016 they came to the surface.ydoethur said:
The country has always been split over Europe. But until a few years ago nobody cared much about it and it wasn't until 2016 that it suddenly became very important.twistedfirestopper3 said:I think Morris has it right. It's a festering sore that is never going to heal. The country is just too split down the middle for one side to win decisively. Deep joy.
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Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?0
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Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
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ydoethur, a bit coarse there, not what I would expect from your good self.ydoethur said:
Now that question comes across as really kinky. I've never heard of poppies being used for fucking before.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
It is not a Burberry cashmere onetwistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
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It's quite wrong to say that those disputes lasted decades; they lasted, and continue to last, for centuries. Brexit is, in some ways, a continuation of the English Reformation and resistance to the ECJ is a continuation of premunire for which you could be hanged, drawn and quartered.0
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Unfortunately G they are turning it into jingoism , the language and tone used now is dire. It is supposed to be remembering the fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears0 -
One of my half-Thai granddaughters, at a Junior International School in Bangkok has to 'find out about someone in your family, maybe a grandparent or great-grandparent who was involved in either WWI or WWII. What was their role? What did they do in the war? What happened to them? Where did they fight/help?’Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears
Given that there are, to my certain knowledge Thai children in the class, as well as children with Japanese and German ancestry, I wonder where it’s going to go!
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Good header Mr Dancer. One quibble. That is not a Buddha quote. It is from Buddhaghosa.
https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/holding-on-to-anger-is-like-grasping-a-hot-coal-with-the-intent-of-harming-another-you-end-up-getting-burned/
Although, it is a perfectly fine Buddhist sentiment.0 -
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
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I am sure that @Morris_Dancer will agree that our dispute with the rest of the continent goes back further, at least to the dispute over PelagianismForlornehope said:It's quite wrong to say that those disputes lasted decades; they lasted, and continue to last, for centuries. Brexit is, in some ways, a continuation of the English Reformation and resistance to the ECJ is a continuation of premunire for which you could be hanged, drawn and quartered.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism
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And that is my attitude as well. I hate jingoismmalcolmg said:
Unfortunately G they are turning it into jingoism , the language and tone used now is dire. It is supposed to be remembering the fallen.Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears0 -
Just like to say I am still insufferable smug about this call.rottenborough said:0 -
As long as it is respect for all the fallen I believe it is a good thingOldKingCole said:
One of my half-Thai granddaughters, at a Junior International School in Bangkok has to 'find out about someone in your family, maybe a grandparent or great-grandparent who was involved in either WWI or WWII. What was their role? What did they do in the war? What happened to them? Where did they fight/help?’Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears
Given that there are, to my certain knowledge Thai children in the class, as well as children with Japanese and German ancestry, I wonder where it’s going to go!0 -
As long as it is respect for all the fallen I believe it is a good thingOldKingCole said:
One of my half-Thai granddaughters, at a Junior International School in Bangkok has to 'find out about someone in your family, maybe a grandparent or great-grandparent who was involved in either WWI or WWII. What was their role? What did they do in the war? What happened to them? Where did they fight/help?’Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears
Given that there are, to my certain knowledge Thai children in the class, as well as children with Japanese and German ancestry, I wonder where it’s going to go!0 -
So OGH bought at 43.7% turnout. Will he reveal his stake per point?0
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What is Siegfried's line?rottenborough said:0 -
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
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"How do you bridge that gap? You can’t (not now, at least). There’s a chasm between them, and you can’t stand in the middle of a chasm."
You can certainly stand in the middle of a chasm, as long as you're at the bottom. Most sane people would try to meet on firm ground, and not in mid-air.
"And now, the EU negotiator is approaching the middle of the high-wire on his unicycle, whilst the Brexiteers approach on their slackline, dressed as clowns whilst juggling copies of Thatcher's autobiography ..."
Edit: that quibble aside, thanks for this, Mr Dancer.0 -
In 1975, the country was split 67/33%, i.e. less of a problem.Cyclefree said:
The country has always been split. But until a few years ago nobody much noticed or cared. Then those who were obsessed with the EU were successful in making the EU the focus of those discontents (even though many of them had nothing to do with the EU) and in 2016 they came to the surface.ydoethur said:
The country has always been split over Europe. But until a few years ago nobody cared much about it and it wasn't until 2016 that it suddenly became very important.twistedfirestopper3 said:I think Morris has it right. It's a festering sore that is never going to heal. The country is just too split down the middle for one side to win decisively. Deep joy.
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General Haig's strategy - allegedly.ydoethur said:
A Northern Irishman once summed up the Troubles thus:Jonathan said:So we’re fucked either way and will continue to argue about Brexit until something worse happens or there is nothing left.
'When the last one of us faces the last one of them across the ruins of Belfast, victory will go to the survivor.'0 -
Agreed. One of her British Gt Grandfathers spent 18 months or so late in WWII dealing with bombs which failed to explode when dropped on East Anglian airfields, and she’s decided to find out as much as possible about him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As long as it is respect for all the fallen I believe it is a good thingOldKingCole said:
One of my half-Thai granddaughters, at a Junior International School in Bangkok has to 'find out about someone in your family, maybe a grandparent or great-grandparent who was involved in either WWI or WWII. What was their role? What did they do in the war? What happened to them? Where did they fight/help?’Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears
Given that there are, to my certain knowledge Thai children in the class, as well as children with Japanese and German ancestry, I wonder where it’s going to go!
Which means we’ll be asked the questions.0 -
David_Evershed said:
What is Siegfried's line?rottenborough said:
It’s got Mothers washing hanging on it!0 -
That was when 67% of the population was elite.rural_voter said:
In 1975, the country was split 67/33%, i.e. less of a problem.Cyclefree said:
The country has always been split. But until a few years ago nobody much noticed or cared. Then those who were obsessed with the EU were successful in making the EU the focus of those discontents (even though many of them had nothing to do with the EU) and in 2016 they came to the surface.ydoethur said:
The country has always been split over Europe. But until a few years ago nobody cared much about it and it wasn't until 2016 that it suddenly became very important.twistedfirestopper3 said:I think Morris has it right. It's a festering sore that is never going to heal. The country is just too split down the middle for one side to win decisively. Deep joy.
Now it's only 48%.0 -
Emphasis on the 'allegedly.'David_Evershed said:
General Haig's strategy - allegedly.ydoethur said:
A Northern Irishman once summed up the Troubles thus:Jonathan said:So we’re fucked either way and will continue to argue about Brexit until something worse happens or there is nothing left.
'When the last one of us faces the last one of them across the ruins of Belfast, victory will go to the survivor.'
The really sad irony about Haig's posthumous reputation (which owed more to Alan Clark and 1960s stage counterculture than reality) is that the reason he launched so many wasteful attacks is he was trying to bring the war to a quick end to save lives.
You could point out that it was a disastrously ineffectual strategy, but it wasn't anything to do with his tortoise Alan.0 -
Could have been worse. He could have worn *that* hat.The_Taxman said:
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
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If the Common Market of 1975 were on offer today, I imagine that 67% or more would support it today. But the much more intrusive, meddling and power-hungry EU of 2016 couldn't quite command a majority, though it came close.David_Evershed said:
That was when 67% of the population was elite.
Now it's only 48%.0 -
Yes. Not even Wile E. Coyote can disobey the law of gravity (curvature of space-time} more than briefly.JosiasJessop said:"How do you bridge that gap? You can’t (not now, at least). There’s a chasm between them, and you can’t stand in the middle of a chasm."
You can certainly stand in the middle of a chasm, as long as you're at the bottom. Most sane people would try to meet on firm ground, and not in mid-air.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq_bjaI0NTo0 -
Heccan’t win can he? If he got his hair wet in the rain that would’ve been described as disrespectful too.The_Taxman said:
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
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Corbyn's coat is a toom tabard, maybe.malcolmg said:
It is not a Burberry cashmere onetwistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
0 -
But the Road Runner can:Toms said:
Yes. Not even Wile E. Coyote can disobey the law of gravity (curvature of space-time} more than briefly.JosiasJessop said:"How do you bridge that gap? You can’t (not now, at least). There’s a chasm between them, and you can’t stand in the middle of a chasm."
You can certainly stand in the middle of a chasm, as long as you're at the bottom. Most sane people would try to meet on firm ground, and not in mid-air.
https://youtu.be/Hd755bbc8uw
(From 6.58)0 -
No not at all.Recidivist said:
Heccan’t win can he? If he got his hair wet in the rain that would’ve been described as disrespectful too.The_Taxman said:
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
I didn't see anybody else with a hood though!
It is standard form not to wear hoods for this type of event.
It is important if you are in public office to have the correct image IMO.
It will not change many votes but it reinforces the impression of the lefts strange relationship with issues pertaining to nationalism, military service and the sacrifices of many in the past.
0 -
Seattle and Phoenix still counting incredibly slowly.0
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One of my nephews, currently in the University OTC in Scotland, lost 2 great uncles fighting for the wehrmacht in Russia. Some bits of the past are best left buried.OldKingCole said:
One of my half-Thai granddaughters, at a Junior International School in Bangkok has to 'find out about someone in your family, maybe a grandparent or great-grandparent who was involved in either WWI or WWII. What was their role? What did they do in the war? What happened to them? Where did they fight/help?’Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears
Given that there are, to my certain knowledge Thai children in the class, as well as children with Japanese and German ancestry, I wonder where it’s going to go!0 -
Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history0 -
I am surprised he didn't have a red star on his Lepel!ydoethur said:
Could have been worse. He could have worn *that* hat.The_Taxman said:
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
0 -
The EEC of 1975 was more 'intrusive' than Norway's half in, half out relationship to the EU.Fishing said:
If the Common Market of 1975 were on offer today, I imagine that 67% or more would support it today. But the much more intrusive, meddling and power-hungry EU of 2016 couldn't quite command a majority, though it came close.David_Evershed said:
That was when 67% of the population was elite.
Now it's only 48%.
Both sides in the campaign mentioned 'political union' and that this was why the UK had left EFTA ... after forming it 15 years earlier.
The EU has no powers not given to it by member states, via the Council of Ministers. Until Blair, the UK had a veto on most matters.
Like you, I'd deplore the EU meddling in in areas where member states haven't granted it clear powers. However, if the EU had a proper constitution, states' rights could be made clearer as they are in the USA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States'_rights
The pro-EU Geoffrey Howe asked for them a few years before his resignation. Other politicians ignored him.0 -
Can you ever have nothing?Jonathan said:So we’re fucked either way and will continue to argue about Brexit until something worse happens or there is nothing left.
0 -
We remember those fallen in more recent times too.Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history0 -
I think it is wrong to end the Remembrance Day event. A constant reminder of the barbaric deaths of those in the past is needed to mitigate the potential of replicating it in the future. Humans don't seem to learn from their mistakes, just replicate them with different people in charge of the levers of power.Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history0 -
Yes, all quite depressing. It is disheartening that people on both sides are in fact still promising easy solutions (be it the lack of problems for no deal leaving, or the equally as false and lacking in self awareness suggestion that a switch to remain means no problems at all).
I really just hope it is the end of a beginning soon, just so that something will have changed and slightly different fights can take place, albeit within the same basic issue. But the constant waiting for May to be brought down, or for Labour to switch to referendum backing openly (as they are clearly preparing to do once a deal is voted down and a GE does not happen), or indeed the constant speculation over whether a deal will pass (quite why the speculation I do not know - the kinds of people who would have to hold their noses to vote for it, for Tories and Labour, seem pretty clear they will not as they hope for the Remain Dream MD talks about).
Hopefully there will be a bunch of Cabinet resignations tomorrow or something or a summit be called, just to break the tedium of all these sides dancing around each other as we avoid the key question - will a vote in the Commons pass.
The most positive estimate I have seen on here about it is that it would, on the second attempt, so there seems little doubt at least once it would not pass (and I don't personally think they will get a second chance as the gov then collapses), so let's just get to that point and then take stock.
Christ, why even wait for May and the EU to, maybe, announce a deal? People are going to vote for or against irrespective of what the final deal is, their positions are fixed already based on what has been reported, just hold the vote now.0 -
Frequently.David_Evershed said:
Can you ever have nothing?Jonathan said:So we’re fucked either way and will continue to argue about Brexit until something worse happens or there is nothing left.
0 -
That would have been so bold I would have totally respect it.ydoethur said:
Could have been worse. He could have worn *that* hat.The_Taxman said:
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
On what I am sure someone somewhere is desperately trying to call coatgate, it's clearly a nothing story. I saw him, thought, 'Huh, don't usually see a hooded coat at these things, I wonder why that is. Whatever'. Any attempt to push this would fail. Yes, people should not look totally scruffy at important civic occasions, but if people try to suggest he looked that bad it will backfire as it really was not, for all I did notice it.0 -
Why? Two of my own German uncles also fought on the Eastern front, one was permanently wounded and the other became a prisoner of war in the Soviet Union. I regret now not learning more about their experiences, though they were always reluctant to speak about them. The prisoner of war returned to find his wife had a child from a rape by an American liberator. The poor kid, about my age, was nicknamed "Ami" at school and I only found out why years later. He took his own life in young adulthood.Foxy said:
One of my nephews, currently in the University OTC in Scotland, lost 2 great uncles fighting for the wehrmacht in Russia. Some bits of the past are best left buried.OldKingCole said:
One of my half-Thai granddaughters, at a Junior International School in Bangkok has to 'find out about someone in your family, maybe a grandparent or great-grandparent who was involved in either WWI or WWII. What was their role? What did they do in the war? What happened to them? Where did they fight/help?’Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears
Given that there are, to my certain knowledge Thai children in the class, as well as children with Japanese and German ancestry, I wonder where it’s going to go!
The past has repurcussions far into the future.0 -
I agree. We focus particularly on the historic 20th century wars, but its about all wars now - that could be emphasised more in future.The_Taxman said:
I think it is wrong to end the Remembrance Day event. A constant reminder of the barbaric deaths of those in the past is needed to mitigate the potential of replicating it in the future. Humans don't seem to learn from their mistakes, just replicate them with different people in charge of the levers of power.Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history0 -
I think Foot was on worse ground due to the numbers of veterans still being significant in the early 1980s. I don't think in 2018 the numbers are appreciable for people to get worked up in the same way. Still it was an own goal and he should be censured by the media for making such a slip.kle4 said:
That would have been so bold I would have totally respect it.ydoethur said:
Could have been worse. He could have worn *that* hat.The_Taxman said:
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
On what I am sure someone somewhere is desperately trying to call coatgate, it's clearly a nothing story. I saw him, thought, 'Huh, don't usually see a hooded coat at these things, I wonder why that is. Whatever'. Any attempt to push this would fail. Yes, people should not look totally scruffy at important civic occasions, but if people try to suggest he looked that bad it will backfire as it really was not, for all I did notice it.-1 -
There's plenty, glorious and terrible alike, which is forgotten and buried enough as it is. How should we decide which bits should be dwelt on and which not, when it comes to the less pleasant aspects? If you ignore the bits that are awful who benefits? Are we, as a nation, not already criticised, fairly or not, by some for not being 'honest' enough in our consideration of some historical matters?Foxy said:
One of my nephews, currently in the University OTC in Scotland, lost 2 great uncles fighting for the wehrmacht in Russia. Some bits of the past are best left buried.OldKingCole said:
One of my half-Thai granddaughters, at a Junior International School in Bangkok has to 'find out about someone in your family, maybe a grandparent or great-grandparent who was involved in either WWI or WWII. What was their role? What did they do in the war? What happened to them? Where did they fight/help?’Big_G_NorthWales said:One of the reasons I think rememberance will continue is that this year has seen a huge surge in interest in the centenary.
Unknown to me, my youngest son has posted a photograph of his great grandfather in military uniform citing his bravery awards in the Boer war and the injuries he suffered in France in 2016 as he led his men to safety. Other members of the family and friends have responded to his posting in such a respectful way it does make you confident that the families will not easily forget the service to their Country by their forebears
Given that there are, to my certain knowledge Thai children in the class, as well as children with Japanese and German ancestry, I wonder where it’s going to go!
The longer ago something was, the more detached we are from it, the easier it is to stomach some truly terrible things that have happened, so there's even more reason to continue to remember it, reflect on it, so long as you do not go totally in the opposite direction and persist in using old grudges as excuses for present shitty behaviour. Thinking on how crazy some of it seems to us seems helpful.
We should all know a lot more history, including that personal to us. I don't see what benefit there is to metaphorically burying any of it.0 -
Corbyn was on brand...scruffy sixth form rebel forced to attend a civil ceremony look.kle4 said:
That would have been so bold I would have totally respect it.ydoethur said:
Could have been worse. He could have worn *that* hat.The_Taxman said:
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
On what I am sure someone somewhere is desperately trying to call coatgate, it's clearly a nothing story. I saw him, thought, 'Huh, don't usually see a hooded coat at these things, I wonder why that is. Whatever'. Any attempt to push this would fail. Yes, people should not look totally scruffy at important civic occasions, but if people try to suggest he looked that bad it will backfire as it really was not, for all I did notice it.0 -
Yes, it is a good piece.Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history
I saw "They Shall Not Grow Old" the other day. It is on BBC2 at 2130 tonight, and a welcome departure from depicting soldiers as victims or martyrs. It is unsparing, but compelling.
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Harsh, but utterly fairFrancisUrquhart said:
Corbyn was on brand...scruffy sixth form rebel forced to attend a civil ceremony look.kle4 said:
That would have been so bold I would have totally respect it.ydoethur said:
Could have been worse. He could have worn *that* hat.The_Taxman said:
I thought it was alright if it didn't have a hood on it. As it is the hood made the coat look cheap and disrespectful. He should have bought a new one IMO. If he wants to hold a significant job in politics, he should really look the part. Compare him to the Shadow Chancellor and I doubt he would have worn such an inferior looking article.OldKingCole said:
It wasn’t as smart as Michael Foot’s. Not as nasty a day, though.shiney2 said:
Its contents (probably).twistedfirestopper3 said:Ok, I've just seen Corbyn's coat. What is all the fuss about?
On what I am sure someone somewhere is desperately trying to call coatgate, it's clearly a nothing story. I saw him, thought, 'Huh, don't usually see a hooded coat at these things, I wonder why that is. Whatever'. Any attempt to push this would fail. Yes, people should not look totally scruffy at important civic occasions, but if people try to suggest he looked that bad it will backfire as it really was not, for all I did notice it.0 -
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/11/plight-asia-bibi-should-have-everyone-west-trembling/
And we apparently have declined to accept her here.
0 -
Will anybody pen a "thought-provoking" piece saying it's time to stop remembering thee Holocaust I wonder?Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history0 -
I'm ambivalent on carrying on Remembrance Day into the future, but perhaps the answer is to do it but with less emphasis on WW1? 1965 was the 150th anniversary of the end of the Napoleonic Wars, but I don't think we noticed much, because of all that had happened since. In the same way, WW2 should perhaps be the focus now until 2045...by which time perhaps we'll have got out of the habit of global wars...0
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Fortunately the Dutch are more accommodating:Floater said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/11/plight-asia-bibi-should-have-everyone-west-trembling/
And we apparently have declined to accept her here.
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/lawyer-seeks-asylum-for-asia-bibi-family-in-netherlands-19449940 -
Truly? What a remarkable decision.Floater said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/11/plight-asia-bibi-should-have-everyone-west-trembling/
And we apparently have declined to accept her here.0 -
I think this is the way to go.NickPalmer said:I'm ambivalent on carrying on Remembrance Day into the future, but perhaps the answer is to do it but with less emphasis on WW1? 1965 was the 150th anniversary of the end of the Napoleonic Wars, but I don't think we noticed much, because of all that had happened since. In the same way, WW2 should perhaps be the focus now until 2045...by which time perhaps we'll have got out of the habit of global wars...
0 -
Its a matter of how it is remembered. The holocaust has many excellent museums and memorials, I dont think anyone is proposing to demolish the Cenotaph, just finding the excessiveness of Poppymas a bit much.MarqueeMark said:
Will anybody pen a "thought-provoking" piece saying it's time to stop remembering thee Holocaust I wonder?Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history0 -
I don't quite follow the labour position of not for a referendum, while winking to the public with people besides the leader suggesting maybe, but being for a GE. If a GE is ok a referendum definitely is and is less obviously partisan.williamglenn said:0 -
Poppymas?Foxy said:
Its a matter of how it is remembered. The holocaust has many excellent museums and memorials, I dont think anyone is proposing to demolish the Cenotaph, just finding the excessiveness of Poppymas a bit much.MarqueeMark said:
Will anybody pen a "thought-provoking" piece saying it's time to stop remembering thee Holocaust I wonder?Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history0 -
And the cult will still believe he is anti-brexit....williamglenn said:twitter.com/channel4news/status/1061620978214690816?s=21
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Indeed. That would be my preferred option. I think there is a lot of sense in that approach.NickPalmer said:I'm ambivalent on carrying on Remembrance Day into the future, but perhaps the answer is to do it but with less emphasis on WW1? 1965 was the 150th anniversary of the end of the Napoleonic Wars, but I don't think we noticed much, because of all that had happened since. In the same way, WW2 should perhaps be the focus now until 2045...by which time perhaps we'll have got out of the habit of global wars...
0 -
Like Christmas people do not need to participate to that extent if they do not want.Foxy said:
Its a matter of how it is remembered. The holocaust has many excellent museums and memorials, I dont think anyone is proposing to demolish the Cenotaph, just finding the excessiveness of Poppymas a bit much.MarqueeMark said:
Will anybody pen a "thought-provoking" piece saying it's time to stop remembering thee Holocaust I wonder?Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history0 -
"Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
UK, ICM poll
CON-ECR: 40% (-1)
LAB-S&D: 38% (-2)
LDEM-ALDE: 9%
UKIP-EFDD: 5% (+1)
GREENS-G/EFA: 3%
SNP-G/EFA: 3%
PC-G/EFA: 1% (+1)
Field work: 26/10/18 – 28/10/18
Sample size: 1,644"0 -
It’s so obviously cynical that they’re starting to get found out. I think they decided on the strategy over a year ago and aren’t astute enough to change it in light of events.kle4 said:
I don't quite follow the labour position of not for a referendum, while winking to the public with people besides the leader suggesting maybe, but being for a GE. If a GE is ok a referendum definitely is and is less obviously partisan.williamglenn said:0 -
On topic, I think the predictions of interminable disputes about the UKs relationship with Europe is overdone and it is more likely that the issue will drop down the political agenda as it did for most of the period from 1980 until the 2010-15 parliament.
I'm going to stick my neck out and predict how I think events will develop. I expect
i May will not be able to put together a deal acceptable to both parliament and the EU, it's quite likely that we will get to January next year without a deal ready to put to parliament;
ii At some point between now and February, probably sooner rather than later, an atmopsohere of panic will develop, supermarkets will begin to warn of food shortages, there will be pressure on sterling and business groups will warn of immediate threats to jobs and essential supplies,
iii It will become clear that the country is about to rush headlong over a cliff with incalculable consequences, this will lead to immense pressure on MPs to take emergency action, the only option open to them will be to seek terms from the EU to suspend the widrawal process to allow another referendum to take place,
iv Another referendum will produce a majority for remain significantly larger than the majority for leave in the first one,
v In future leavers will still be a political force, rather as former communists are a political force in Eastern Europe, but it will be clear that their ideas are discredited and cannot be implemented in the way they suggest. They will not get near to government again for the foreseeable future.
So I'm actually quite optimistic that we can put the disasters of the past few years behind us. It will take time but it can be done.
0 -
In effect he might soon be despite his inclinations. Labour vote down the deal, if we get one, and what then? In a GE they could argue they'd fight for a better deal, but what if there is no GE? They cannot then back the deal if there was a referendum, having just rejected it. And if we don't get a referendum either? Having rejected the deal and unable to get another option but not backing no deal? Corbyn may not have many options left either- and might say he wanted to respect the brexit vote but the Tories cocked it up.FrancisUrquhart said:
And the cult will still believe he is anti-brexit....williamglenn said:twitter.com/channel4news/status/1061620978214690816?s=21
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https://twitter.com/Ecto1Fan/status/1057688955150315520?s=19RobD said:
Poppymas?Foxy said:
Its a matter of how it is remembered. The holocaust has many excellent museums and memorials, I dont think anyone is proposing to demolish the Cenotaph, just finding the excessiveness of Poppymas a bit much.MarqueeMark said:
Will anybody pen a "thought-provoking" piece saying it's time to stop remembering thee Holocaust I wonder?Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history
0 -
I used the word craven when discussing with my wifekle4 said:
Truly? What a remarkable decision.Floater said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/11/plight-asia-bibi-should-have-everyone-west-trembling/
And we apparently have declined to accept her here.0 -
Can I get my ticket for the outrage bus?Foxy said:
https://twitter.com/Ecto1Fan/status/1057688955150315520?s=19RobD said:
Poppymas?Foxy said:
Its a matter of how it is remembered. The holocaust has many excellent museums and memorials, I dont think anyone is proposing to demolish the Cenotaph, just finding the excessiveness of Poppymas a bit much.MarqueeMark said:
Will anybody pen a "thought-provoking" piece saying it's time to stop remembering thee Holocaust I wonder?Anazina said:Thought provoking piece from Simon Jenkins, saying that, after 100 years, it is time to bring Remembrance Day to a close.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/09/no-more-remembrance-days-consign-20th-century-history
In all seriousness, a bit disrespectful for the people that we are supposed to be remembering.0 -
I sort of agree except I think they will do a sudden u turn and will get away with it despite it being so cynical because a lot of people will be so happy they did it even if it was so late.williamglenn said:
It’s so obviously cynical that they’re starting to get found out. I think they decided on the strategy over a year ago and aren’t astute enough to change it in light of events.kle4 said:
I don't quite follow the labour position of not for a referendum, while winking to the public with people besides the leader suggesting maybe, but being for a GE. If a GE is ok a referendum definitely is and is less obviously partisan.williamglenn said:
0
