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Yeah, people vacillate. Even more grist to your mill that a moderate path should be chosen.SeanT said:
lol. Yes. Or nearly. I think at some point mid-claret last week I reluctantly decided Remain was better than No Deal.Anazina said:TheScreamingEagles said:
I really should register the 'Fiscally Dry, Socially Liberal, Not Obsessed With Europe and Gays Tory Party' with the Electoral Commission.Scrapheap_as_was said:
There's a party founded on pb which isn't obsessed with Europe etc that is waiting to step forward when the moment is ripe...Gallowgate said:
Good. I hope it’s true. We’re sick of Brexit.marke09 said:
He has in fact converted to Remain. At least that was his position mid-Barolo last weekend.Stereotomy said:
Huh, I missed your conversion to soft brexitSeanT said:
Wrong. EFTA have already said we are welcome to join.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't EFTA members participate in the Single Market and Schengen?SeanT said:+1
Given where we are now, EFTA is the best bet. Then think again. We would not be stuck. Norway could leave EFTA and be entirely independent any time it likes
The fear must be that the sense of betrayal over FoM would reinvent UKIP and lead to a Corbyn government.
How do you solve that?
With a 2nd referendum where the choice is HMG's EFTA, or No Deal (or whatever Labour propose instead of EFTA)
I reckon EFTA would win fairly easily, 60/40?
EFTA might have been an option if Leave hadn't focussed so much on immigration/free movement.
So EFTA isn't an option, and plus there's a strong chance that EFTA wouldn't let us in anyway given our size, we'd dominate it.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-britain-join-european-economic-area-single-market-norway-eea-a8350681.html
I know you are desperate for No Deal Crash Brexit so you can feel some strange pleasure in your country's pain, as you move to Frankfurt (my sympathies), but simply lying does you no favour.
For once, however, I do not think I am unusual in my bipolar swings. Most thinking people I know (apart from the ideological nutters at both extremes) swing between Leave and Remain or Soft or Hard Brexit, or Oh my God We're Doomed to Shut up We'll be Fine, hour by hour.
It's an entirely human reaction to a hideously unpredictable, even chaotic political development, which has the potential to change many lives, indeed alter history.0 -
If that was the case No Deal would be comfortably ahead of Remain in the polls rather than trailing by 10%.Andy_Cooke said:
While Schengen is optional for EFTA countries, FOM is, as you say, not optional.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't EFTA members participate in the Single Market and Schengen?SeanT said:+1
Given where we are now, EFTA is the best bet. Then think again. We would not be stuck. Norway could leave EFTA and be entirely independent any time it likes
The fear must be that the sense of betrayal over FoM would reinvent UKIP and lead to a Corbyn government.
How do you solve that?
With a 2nd referendum where the choice is HMG's EFTA, or No Deal (or whatever Labour propose instead of EFTA)
I reckon EFTA would win fairly easily, 60/40?
EFTA might have been an option if Leave hadn't focussed so much on immigration/free movement.
So EFTA isn't an option, and plus there's a strong chance that EFTA wouldn't let us in anyway given our size, we'd dominate it.
I personally think it would be the best long-term destination, but agree that after the Leave campaign we had, it's completely incompatible with the expressed view of the people and why most (not all, of course, but a big majority) of Leave voters made the vote they did:
The median of most voters is Leave but only with a trade deal, those who are obsessed about leaving the Customs Union and doing our own trade deals and kicking all the immigrants out are a minority.
In any case there has been a net reduction in Eastern European migration to the UK since the Leave vote anyway
'Around 45,000 people from ‘EU8’ states - which include Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic - came to Britain in the 12 months to the end of March.
During the same period, 47,000 from EU8 countries left the UK, according to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).'
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1007650/brexit-news-immigration-eu-uk-net-migration-eu8
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Ironic isn't it, same point needs making to the corbynistas about the hated moderate wing of their side of the spectrum.TheScreamingEagles said:
No it isn't.HYUFD said:
It is called 'the Orange Book LDs'TheScreamingEagles said:
I really should register the 'Fiscally Dry, Socially Liberal, Not Obsessed With Europe and Gays Tory Party' with the Electoral Commission.Scrapheap_as_was said:
There's a party founded on pb which isn't obsessed with Europe etc that is waiting to step forward when the moment is ripe...Gallowgate said:
Good. I hope it’s true. We’re sick of Brexit.marke09 said:
It is the only type of Toryism to have won a majority in the last 26 years.0 -
Having a referendum on leaving the EU as party of its manifestoTheScreamingEagles said:
No it isn't.HYUFD said:
It is called 'the Orange Book LDs'TheScreamingEagles said:
I really should register the 'Fiscally Dry, Socially Liberal, Not Obsessed With Europe and Gays Tory Party' with the Electoral Commission.Scrapheap_as_was said:
There's a party founded on pb which isn't obsessed with Europe etc that is waiting to step forward when the moment is ripe...Gallowgate said:
Good. I hope it’s true. We’re sick of Brexit.marke09 said:
It is the only type of Toryism to have won a majority in the last 26 years.0 -
Because the only type of Labour opposition was Ed's.TheScreamingEagles said:
No it isn't.HYUFD said:
It is called 'the Orange Book LDs'TheScreamingEagles said:
I really should register the 'Fiscally Dry, Socially Liberal, Not Obsessed With Europe and Gays Tory Party' with the Electoral Commission.Scrapheap_as_was said:
There's a party founded on pb which isn't obsessed with Europe etc that is waiting to step forward when the moment is ripe...Gallowgate said:
Good. I hope it’s true. We’re sick of Brexit.marke09 said:
It is the only type of Toryism to have won a majority in the last 26 years.0 -
SeanT said:
This is hardly news.TheScreamingEagles said:
TMay is on the tightrope.
As a headline, Tightrope Walker Might Fall Off is like Angry Dog Bites Nervous Postman.
More like:
Angry Dog Growls Menacingly At Nervous Postman0 -
Wheels beginning to come off for May.Tony said:
Read the whole lead, interesting new nugget from Shipman, Ruth threatening to resign if Northern Ireland screwed by May.Anazina said:TheScreamingEagles said:
Crap lead in the Sunday Times: Failed flouncer DD urges other quarterwits to join him
Next.
Night all.0 -
They do if it is No Deal.archer101au said:
And a huge number of remain voters don't support another referendum.HYUFD said:
So even with Don't Knows a quarter of Leave voters do not back No Deal.archer101au said:
Total is 81%; rest don't knows; exclude the don't knows and ND is 39% I believe. So vast majority of Leave voters want No Deal and that is in a four choice race. By the time May's deal has been destroyed by the ERG, in a forced choice between May and No Deal (and those are the only two actual choices) No Deal will end up in the lead.HYUFD said:
31% is not 'almost 40%' it is less than a third. Leave got 52% so barely more than half of Leave voters back No Dealarcher101au said:
Err - excluding Don't Knows almost 40% back No Deal in a four horse race. When the options that are not actually available (referendum, extension) are excluded and this comes down to May's sellout vs No Deal, No Deal is going to be in the lead by the time the Commons vote.HYUFD said:
So 36% back an extended negotiation period or a second EU referendum compared to 31% backing No Deal. A further 14% back a general election Opinium tonight suggests could see May win a small overall majorityTheScreamingEagles said:If the government is unable to reach a deal with the EU, 31% of respondents said the UK should leave without a deal and with no further votes, 23% said there should a second Brexit referendum, 14% said there should be a general election and 13% said the government should try and extend the negotiation period beyond March 2019.
'The vast majority' of Leave voters is not enough for No Deal, you need all of them to get over 50%. On a forced choice otherwise both Remain and May Deal will beat No Deal head to head
Remain is not an option. The only choice actually available will be May's sellout vs No Deal.
No Deal will be in the lead by the time of the HoC vote. This will encourage the ERG to reject it and May will be defeated.
According to ICM in order of net favourability with voters Canada is on +20%, Norway on +7%, Chequers on +5%, Remain on +1%, No Deal on an abysmal -33%.
No Deal is the only way Remainers have a chance of reversing Brexit in a second referendum.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html0 -
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Rancid xenophobia won the referendum. The disaster that is unfolding is down to the willingness of obsessive Europhobes to throw in their lot with race-baiters.archer101au said:
He didn't get a customer because his point does not make any sense.Anazina said:
I doubt you’ll get a customer. Archer is like all other Brexiteer ‘hardliners’ - all push and no piss.
You underestimated Leavers at the referendum - you are about to learn again that principle is always more effective than fear.0 -
“As few as”Scott_P said:
Tory letters stories seem to me to be grout for slow news days.
Only X numbers are required
( let x>1 but <10)0 -
You keep saying “we have to agree the backstop to get to the transition period”HYUFD said:
We have to agree the CU backstop to get to the transition period.archer101au said:
You have completely misunderstood what is being proposed.HYUFD said:
May will of course agree that the UK stays in the Customs Union to get to the transition period but Barnier is moving to extend the transition period for a year so May can sell the Withdrawal Agreement Deal to enough of her backbenchers to get it through the Commons, as a backstop of staying in the Customs Union even without a time limit with an extended transition period will be less likely to be iod in the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections)archer101au said:
Barnier is not agreeing to settle the Irish border, nor to agree an FTA. He is still saying that the backstop will be permanent until the UK accept the separation of NI in return for an FTA. Or the UK accept EEA+CU. No other options.HYUFD said:
If May gets her Withdrawal Agreement through 2/brexit-transition-period-could-extended-another-year-costing/DecrepitJohnL said:
We won't be having an election in 2020. FTPA says five years after 2017 or quite possibly 2019 if the government falls over Brexit.rcs1000 said:Right. I need to record the third piece of my Demographics series.
And I need to finish writing
"2020: The Election They Wished They Had't Won"
In the transition period, we are full members of the CU and SM. We don't 'stay in the CU to get to the transition'. The transition starts on 31 March 2019.
The backstop, which would kick in at the end of the transition, keeps the UK in the CU only, but keeps NI in the SM as well.
May's 'plan' is simply to extend the transition period by a year so she can say it makes it 'less likely' we will get to the backstop. This is of course nonsense, because there is no basis for a trade agreement that will avoid the backstop. It is just a way of delaying Brexit.
But when the 'extended transition' period ends, the backstop will still kick in and will be permanent, despite May's attempts to spin it otherwise. So we will not 'leave without a deal' - we will be stuck in the CU with no way out. And we cannot be in the CU without following SM regulations.
Summary - May is a liar and is trying to deceive people that the backstop is not permanent.
The backstop keeping the whole UK in the CU only kicks in if no FTA agreed during the transition period. GB would not be in the full SM even if it stayed in the CU post transition as required by the backstop.
That’s not true. Barnier wants us to, but it is not an immutable fact0 -
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.0 -
Postman nervously considers taking on growling dog to deliver letter to 12-14 Mount Street Lower,Anazina said:SeanT said:
This is hardly news.TheScreamingEagles said:
TMay is on the tightrope.
As a headline, Tightrope Walker Might Fall Off is like Angry Dog Bites Nervous Postman.
More like:
Angry Dog Growls Menacingly At Nervous Postman0 -
No, Alastair, you don't understand.AlastairMeeks said:Rancid xenophobia won the referendum. The disaster that is unfolding is down to the willingness of obsessive Europhobes to throw in their lot with race-baiters.
Leavers didn't vote FOR Farage, they just voted WITH him.
See, not rancid xenophobes at all, just voted with the rancid xenophobes. Some of their best friends are European.0 -
If TM goes put David Davis and JRM in charge and 'stand back'
If they think they are good enough prove it0 -
Come and have a go if you think you are hard (Brexit) enough...Big_G_NorthWales said:If TM goes put David Davis and JRM in charge and 'stand back'
If they think they are good enough prove it0 -
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Wanting to manage immigration is not xenophobiaAnazina said:
Indeed freedom of movement is a major feature, not a bug, of EU membership.Foxy said:
Not for many. Like many other Europeans, I consider free movement a major benefit, not a cost.Charles said:
Indeed. And an economic partnership without freedom of movement would be perfect. Unfortunately our partners arent interestedAlastairMeeks said:Yet again: Leave won by campaigning against immigration and for increased spending on the NHS. Brexit must do those two things. After that, everything else is up for discussion.
This notion that there is some platonic ideal of Brexit inherent in the referendum ballot slip is so much nonsense. If Leavers wanted a mandate for other requirements of Brexit they should have made them a central plank of their campaign.
Pandering to xenophobia was as catastrophic for Leave as for the country as a whole.
The legitimisation of xenophobia is sadly a consequence of withdrawal.0 -
In that order please, for betting purposes.Big_G_NorthWales said:If TM goes put David Davis and JRM in charge and 'stand back'
If they think they are good enough prove it0 -
It’s a disaster come what may now. The only choice now is which disaster.SeanT said:
You know, if someone offers an olive branch (especially if they are on the winning side) it is commonly wise to accept it.Scott_P said:
And yet, we did!SeanT said:Just because we Leavers won (narrowly) do we get to ignore the 16 million Brits who wanted to stay in Europe? No. Morally, politically, emotionally, we don't.
Citizens of nowhere lost. Suck it up, losers!
Attitudes like yours, and Mr Meeks', are why Brexit might end up a fucking disaster, yet will happen nonetheless - and will also be so torrid, it will be totally irreversible.
Embittered Remoaners are their own worst enemies. Discuss.0 -
With the greatest of respect your constant quoting of arbitrary poll results is incredibly tiresome.HYUFD said:
They do if it is No Deal.archer101au said:
And a huge number of remain voters don't support another referendum.HYUFD said:
So even with Don't Knows a quarter of Leave voters do not back No Deal.archer101au said:HYUFD said:
31% is not 'almost 40%' it is less than a third. Leave got 52% so barely more than half of Leave voters back No Dealarcher101au said:
Err - excluding Don't Knows almost 40% back No Deal in a four horse race. When the options that are not actually available (referendum, extension) are excluded and this comes down to May's sellout vs No Deal, No Deal is going to be in the lead by the time the Commons vote.HYUFD said:
So 36% back an extended negotiation period or a second EU referendum compared to 31% backing No Deal. A further 14% back a general election Opinium tonight suggests could see May win a small overall majorityTheScreamingEagles said:If the government is unable to reach a deal with the EU, 31% of respondents said the UK should leave without a deal and with no further votes, 23% said there should a second Brexit referendum, 14% said there should be a general election and 13% said the government should try and extend the negotiation period beyond March 2019.
'The vast majority' of Leave voters is not enough for No Deal, you need all of them to get over 50%. On a forced choice otherwise both Remain and May Deal will beat No Deal head to head
Remain is not an option. The only choice actually available will be May's sellout vs No Deal.
No Deal will be in the lead by the time of the HoC vote. This will encourage the ERG to reject it and May will be defeated.
According to ICM in order of net favourability with voters Canada is on +20%, Norway on +7%, Chequers on +5%, Remain on +1%, No Deal on an abysmal -33%.
No Deal is the only way Remainers have a chance of reversing Brexit in a second referendum.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html
Surely the last few major campaigns have all shown one thing polls taken prior to the heat of the campaign itself were all completely wrong.
Trump/Clinton
Remain/leave
May/Corbyn
All finished very differently to how the 'polls' were predicting at the start.
In the real world no one had any idea what canada, Norway, chequers actually mean, so the percentage support for each is meaningless.
Likewise no deal is generally assumed to mean no planes, no medicine and general economic collapse. I'm actually amazed it's polling so well
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15 years ago mateHYUFD said:
We could have done that in the EU had Blair imposed transition controls in 2004 on free movement from the new accession nations, in EFTA we can evict those after 3 months not in work or looking for work and lots of Eastern Europeans have headed home after the Leave vote anywayTheScreamingEagles said:
But you missed the most important part, EFTA is not consistent with honouring the referendum result on free movement.SeanT said:
Wrong. EFTA have already said we are welcome to join.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't EFTA members participate in the Single Market and Schengen?SeanT said:+1
Given where we are now, EFTA is the best bet. Then think again. We would not be stuck. Norway could leave EFTA and be entirely independent any time it likes
The fear must be that the sense of betrayal over FoM would reinvent UKIP and lead to a Corbyn government.
How do you solve that?
With a 2nd referendum where the choice is HMG's EFTA, or No Deal (or whatever Labour propose instead of EFTA)
I reckon EFTA would win fairly easily, 60/40?
EFTA might have been an option if Leave hadn't focussed so much on immigration/free movement.
So EFTA isn't an option, and plus there's a strong chance that EFTA wouldn't let us in anyway given our size, we'd dominate it.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-britain-join-european-economic-area-single-market-norway-eea-a8350681.html
I know you are desperate for No Deal Crash Brexit so you can feel some strange pleasure in your country's pain, as you move to Frankfurt (my sympathies), but simply lying does you no favour.
You’ve said the same thing a hundred times or more. Try to be more interesting0 -
It remains a pivotal point, boring or notCharles said:
15 years ago mateHYUFD said:
We could have done that in the EU had Blair imposed transition controls in 2004 on free movement from the new accession nations, in EFTA we can evict those after 3 months not in work or looking for work and lots of Eastern Europeans have headed home after the Leave vote anywayTheScreamingEagles said:
But you missed the most important part, EFTA is not consistent with honouring the referendum result on free movement.SeanT said:
Wrong. EFTA have already said we are welcome to join.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't EFTA members participate in the Single Market and Schengen?SeanT said:+1
Given where we are now, EFTA is the best bet. Then think again. We would not be stuck. Norway could leave EFTA and be entirely independent any time it likes
The fear must be that the sense of betrayal over FoM would reinvent UKIP and lead to a Corbyn government.
How do you solve that?
With a 2nd referendum where the choice is HMG's EFTA, or No Deal (or whatever Labour propose instead of EFTA)
I reckon EFTA would win fairly easily, 60/40?
EFTA might have been an option if Leave hadn't focussed so much on immigration/free movement.
So EFTA isn't an option, and plus there's a strong chance that EFTA wouldn't let us in anyway given our size, we'd dominate it.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-britain-join-european-economic-area-single-market-norway-eea-a8350681.html
I know you are desperate for No Deal Crash Brexit so you can feel some strange pleasure in your country's pain, as you move to Frankfurt (my sympathies), but simply lying does you no favour.
You’ve said the same thing a hundred times or more. Try to be more interesting0 -
Looking at tonight's Opinium poll is only likely to reinforce that trendScott_P said:0 -
Well if you want to go on blind faith that Barnier is bluffing that is up to youCharles said:
You keep saying “we have to agree the backstop to get to the transition period”HYUFD said:
We have to agree the CU backstop to get to the transition period.archer101au said:
You have completely misunderstood what is being proposed.HYUFD said:
May will of course agree that the UK stays in the Customs Union to get to the transition period but Barnier is moving to extend the transition period for a year so May can sell the Withdrawal Agreement Deal to enough of her backbenchers to get it through the Commons, as a backstop of staying in the Customs Union even without a time limit with an extended transition period will be less likely to be iod in the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections)archer101au said:
Barnier is not agreeing to settle the Irish border, nor to agree an FTA. He is still saying that the backstop will be permanent until the UK accept the separation of NI in return for an FTA. Or the UK accept EEA+CU. No other options.HYUFD said:
If May gets her Withdrawal Agreement through 2/brexit-transition-period-could-extended-another-year-costing/DecrepitJohnL said:
We won't be having an election in 2020. FTPA says five years after 2017 or quite possibly 2019 if the government falls over Brexit.rcs1000 said:Right. I need to record the third piece of my Demographics series.
And I need to finish writing
"2020: The Election They Wished They Had't Won"
In the transition period, we are full members of the CU and SM. We don't 'stay in the CU to get to the transition'. The transition starts on 31 March 2019.
The backstop, which would kick in at the end of the transition, keeps the UK in the CU only, but keeps NI in the SM as well.
not be in the CU without following SM regulations.
Summary - May is a liar and is trying to deceive people that the backstop is not permanent.
The backstop keeping the whole UK in the CU only kicks in if no FTA agreed during the transition period. GB would not be in the full SM even if it stayed in the CU post transition as required by the backstop.
That’s not true. Barnier wants us to, but it is not an immutable fact0 -
Trump led several polls, Leave led several polls even if they did not lead a majority of the final polls.Tony said:
With the greatest of respect your constant quoting of arbitrary poll results is incredibly tiresome.HYUFD said:
They do if it is No Deal.archer101au said:
And a huge number of remain voters don't support another referendum.HYUFD said:
So even with Don't Knows a quarter of Leavain and May Deal will beat No Deal head to headarcher101au said:HYUFD said:
31% is not 'almost 40%' it is less than a third. Leave got 52% so barely more than half of Leave voters back No Dealarcher101au said:
Err - excluding Don't Knows al is going to be in the lead by the time the Commons vote.HYUFD said:
So 36% back an extended norityTheScreamingEagles said:If the government is unable to reach a deal with the EU, 31% of respondents said the UK should leave without a deal and with no further votes, 23% said there should a second Brexit referendum, 14% said there should be a general election and 13% said the government should try and extend the negotiation period beyond March 2019.
Remain is not an option. The only choice actually available will be May's sellout vs No Deal.
No Deal will be in the lead by the time of the HoC vote. This will encourage the ERG to reject it and May will be defeated.
According to ICM in order of net favourability with voters Canada is on +20%, Norway on +7%, Chequers on +5%, Remain on +1%, No Deal on an abysmal -33%.
No Deal is the only way Remainers have a chance of reversing Brexit in a second referendum.
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/libleave_brexit_spectrum.html
Surely the last few major campaigns have all shown one thing polls taken prior to the heat of the campaign itself were all completely wrong.
Trump/Clinton
Remain/leave
May/Corbyn
All finished very differently to how the 'polls' were predicting at the start.
In the real world no one had any idea what canada, Norway, chequers actually mean, so the percentage support for each is meaningless.
Likewise no deal is generally assumed to mean no planes, no medicine and general economic collapse. I'm actually amazed it's polling so well
May actually won enough seats to form a government again.
No Deal has led 0 polls against Remain and has a net approval rating even worse than Hillary's in 2016.
You may find it 'tiresome' polls do not support your point of view, that will not stop me posting them!0 -
Control of Immigration is not closing the bordersAnazina said:
Right, so we choose our national path based on word clouds now? Sorry, no. Nothing on the ballot paper about FOM. Vote was 52/48. We shouldn’t infer a hardline ‘shut the borders’ path from that.Andy_Cooke said:
While Schengen is optional for EFTA countries, FOM is, as you say, not optional.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't EFTA members participate in the Single Market and Schengen?SeanT said:+1
Given where we are now, EFTA is the best bet. Then think again. We would not be stuck. Norway could leave EFTA and be entirely independent any time it likes
The fear must be that the sense of betrayal over FoM would reinvent UKIP and lead to a Corbyn government.
How do you solve that?
With a 2nd referendum where the choice is HMG's EFTA, or No Deal (or whatever Labour propose instead of EFTA)
I reckon EFTA would win fairly easily, 60/40?
EFTA might have been an option if Leave hadn't focussed so much on immigration/free movement.
So EFTA isn't an option, and plus there's a strong chance that EFTA wouldn't let us in anyway given our size, we'd dominate it.
I personally think it would be the best long-term destination, but agree that after the Leave campaign we had, it's completely incompatible with the expressed view of the people and why most (not all, of course, but a big majority) of Leave voters made the vote they did:0 -
It's like Labour defectors.AlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.
"If not now, when?" five or six times each. The answer is of course, "never".0 -
In a fresh referendum I doubt I’d vote. I couldn’t endorse Leave and in the present state of affairs Remain would be no solution. There ain’t going to be a happy ending.SeanT said:
See, there you go. I despise you all over again, and would rather No Deal just so you have to SUCK IT UP. Wanker.Scott_P said:
No, Alastair, you don't understand.AlastairMeeks said:Rancid xenophobia won the referendum. The disaster that is unfolding is down to the willingness of obsessive Europhobes to throw in their lot with race-baiters.
Leavers didn't vote FOR Farage, they just voted WITH him.
See, not rancid xenophobes at all, just voted with the rancid xenophobes. Some of their best friends are European.
You arrogant tossers will never learn, and you deserved to lose. Even if you got your second referendum my guess is that people like you and Meeks would ensure, with your repulsive sneering, that Remain lost all over again, perhaps by a bigger margin.
Twats.0 -
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.0 -
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I expect so. But they haven’t, and for a good reason.Charles said:
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.0 -
Is that what Brexiteers really think?SeanT said:Just because we Leavers won (narrowly) do we get to ignore the 16 million Brits who wanted to stay in Europe? No. Morally, politically, emotionally, we don't.
No
That is what Brexiteers really think.SeanT said:See, there you go. I despise you all over again, and would rather No Deal just so you have to SUCK IT UP. Wanker.
You arrogant tossers will never learn, and you deserved to lose.
Twats.0 -
Actually no. It’s complete conjecture (“if this has happened 15 years ago the world would be different”) and hypothetical.HYUFD said:
It remains a pivotal point, boring or notCharles said:
15 years ago mateHYUFD said:
We could have done that in the EU had Blair imposed transition controls in 2004 on free movement from the new accession nations, in EFTA we can evict those after 3 months not in work or looking for work and lots of Eastern Europeans have headed home after the Leave vote anywayTheScreamingEagles said:
But you missed the most important part, EFTA is not consistent with honouring the referendum result on free movement.SeanT said:
Wrong. EFTA have already said we are welcome to join.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't EFTA members participate in the Single Market and Schengen?SeanT said:+1
Given where we are now, EFTA is the best bet. Then think again. We would not be stuck. Norway could leave EFTA and be entirely independent any time it likes
The fear must be that the sense of betrayal over FoM would reinvent UKIP and lead to a Corbyn government.
How do you solve that?
With a 2nd referendum where the choice is HMG's EFTA, or No Deal (or whatever Labour propose instead of EFTA)
I reckon EFTA would win fairly easily, 60/40?
EFTA might have been an option if Leave hadn't focussed so much on immigration/free movement.
So EFTA isn't an option, and plus there's a strong chance that EFTA wouldn't let us in anyway given our size, we'd dominate it.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-britain-join-european-economic-area-single-market-norway-eea-a8350681.html
I know you are desperate for No Deal Crash Brexit so you can feel some strange pleasure in your country's pain, as you move to Frankfurt (my sympathies), but simply lying does you no favour.
You’ve said the same thing a hundred times or more. Try to be more interesting
You don’t know. I don’t know. What we do know is that it didn’t happen.0 -
Neither of us are in the room.HYUFD said:
Well if you want to go on blind faith that Barnier is bluffing that is up to youCharles said:
You keep saying “we have to agree the backstop to get to the transition period”HYUFD said:
We have to agree the CU backstop to get to the transition period.archer101au said:
You have completely misunderstood what is being proposed.HYUFD said:
May will of course agree that the UK stays in the Customs Union to get to the transition period but Barnier is moving to extend the transition period for a year so May can sell the Withdrawal Agreement Deal to enough of her backbenchers to get it through the Commons, as a backstop of staying in the Customs Union even without a time limit with an extended transition period will be less likely to be iod in the 2021 Scottish Parliament elections)archer101au said:
Barnier is not agreeing to settle the Irish border, nor to agree an FTA. He is still saying that the backstop will be permanent until the UK accept the separation of NI in return for an FTA. Or the UK accept EEA+CU. No other options.HYUFD said:
If May gets her Withdrawal Agreement through 2/brexit-transition-period-could-extended-another-year-costing/DecrepitJohnL said:
We won't be having an election in 2020. FTPA says five years after 2017 or quite possibly 2019 if the government falls over Brexit.rcs1000 said:Right. I need to record the third piece of my Demographics series.
And I need to finish writing
"2020: The Election They Wished They Had't Won"
In the transition period, we are full members of the CU and SM. We don't 'stay in the CU to get to the transition'. The transition starts on 31 March 2019.
The backstop, which would kick in at the end of the transition, keeps the UK in the CU only, but keeps NI in the SM as well.
not be in the CU without following SM regulations.
Summary - May is a liar and is trying to deceive people that the backstop is not permanent.
The backstop keeping the whole UK in the CU only kicks in if no FTA agreed during the transition period. GB would not be in the full SM even if it stayed in the CU post transition as required by the backstop.
That’s not true. Barnier wants us to, but it is not an immutable fact
It’s a negotiation0 -
It’s their trump card (may be). It’s more powerful kept in their handAlastairMeeks said:
I expect so. But they haven’t, and for a good reason.Charles said:
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.0 -
We do know that we were virtually the only country bar Sweden and Ireland which did not impose those transition controls and the largest nation not to do so and so as a consequence took a disproportionate share of Poles and Czechs and Hungarians.Charles said:
Actually no. It’s complete conjecture (“if this has happened 15 years ago the world would be different”) and hypothetical.HYUFD said:
It remains a pivotal point, boring or notCharles said:
15 years ago mateHYUFD said:
We could have done that in the EU had Blair imposed transition controls in 2004 on free movement from the new accession nations, in EFTA we can evict those after 3 months not in work or looking for work and lots of Eastern Europeans have headed home after the Leave vote anywayTheScreamingEagles said:
But you missed the most important part, EFTA is not consistent with honouring the referendum result on free movement.SeanT said:
Wrong. EFTA have already said we are welcome to join.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't EFTA members participate in the Single Market and Schengen?SeanT said:+1
Given where we are now, EFTA is the best bet. Then think again. We would not be stuck. Norway could leave EFTA and be entirely independent any time it likes
The fear must be that the sense of betrayal over FoM would reinvent UKIP and lead to a Corbyn government.
How do you solve that?
With a 2nd referendum where the choice is HMG's EFTA, or No Deal (or whatever Labour propose instead of EFTA)
I reckon EFTA would win fairly easily, 60/40?
EFTA might have been an option if Leave hadn't focussed so much on immigration/free movement.
So EFTA isn't an option, and plus there's a strong chance that EFTA wouldn't let us in anyway given our size, we'd dominate it.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-britain-join-european-economic-area-single-market-norway-eea-a8350681.html
I know you are desperate for No Deal Crash Brexit so you can feel some strange pleasure in your country's pain, as you move to Frankfurt (my sympathies), but simply lying does you no favour.
You’ve said the same thing a hundred times or more. Try to be more interesting
You don’t know. I don’t know. What we do know is that it didn’t happen.
0 -
Die Hard on Channel 4 in half an hour.
The run in to Christmas gets earlier and earlier.....
0 -
Yet they have nowhere near the numbers to topple May in a No Confidence voteCharles said:
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.
0 -
And we don’t know what impact that had or if it would have been different with transitional controlsHYUFD said:
We do know that we were virtually the only country bar Sweden and Ireland which did not impose those transition controls and the largest nation not to do so and so as a consequence took a disproportionate share of Poles and Czechs and Hungarians.Charles said:
Actually no. It’s complete conjecture (“if this has happened 15 years ago the world would be different”) and hypothetical.HYUFD said:
It remains a pivotal point, boring or notCharles said:
15 years ago mateHYUFD said:
We could have done that in the EU had Blair imposed transition controls in 2004 on free movement from the new accession nations, in EFTA we can evict those after 3 months not in work or looking for work and lots of Eastern Europeans have headed home after the Leave vote anywayTheScreamingEagles said:
But you missed the most important part, EFTA is not consistent with honouring the referendum result on free movement.SeanT said:
Wrong. EFTA have already said we are welcome to join.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't EFTA members participate in the Single Market and Schengen?SeanT said:+1
Given where we are now, EFTA is the best bet. Then think again. We would not be stuck. Norway could leave EFTA and be entirely independent any time it likes
The fear must be that the sense of betrayal over FoM would reinvent UKIP and lead to a Corbyn government.
How do you solve that?
With a 2nd referendum where the choice is HMG's EFTA, or No Deal (or whatever Labour propose instead of EFTA)
I reckon EFTA would win fairly easily, 60/40?
EFTA might have been an option if Leave hadn't focussed so much on immigration/free movement.
So EFTA isn't an option, and plus there's a strong chance that EFTA wouldn't let us in anyway given our size, we'd dominate it.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-britain-join-european-economic-area-single-market-norway-eea-a8350681.html
I know you are desperate for No Deal Crash Brexit so you can feel some strange pleasure in your country's pain, as you move to Frankfurt (my sympathies), but simply lying does you no favour.
You’ve said the same thing a hundred times or more. Try to be more interesting
You don’t know. I don’t know. What we do know is that it didn’t happen.0 -
More like, it’s only playable if you can win the vote that follows. Obviously they can’t, and everyone realises that.Charles said:
It’s their trump card (may be). It’s more powerful kept in their handAlastairMeeks said:
I expect so. But they haven’t, and for a good reason.Charles said:
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.0 -
It’s the Samson strategy. MAD but may be effective as a threat (but the DUP is better at it)AlastairMeeks said:
More like, it’s only playable if you can win the vote that follows. Obviously they can’t, and everyone realises that.Charles said:
It’s their trump card (may be). It’s more powerful kept in their handAlastairMeeks said:
I expect so. But they haven’t, and for a good reason.Charles said:
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.0 -
It only works if you have the strength. The ERG don’t.Charles said:
It’s the Samson strategy. MAD but may be effective as a threat (but the DUP is better at it)AlastairMeeks said:
More like, it’s only playable if you can win the vote that follows. Obviously they can’t, and everyone realises that.Charles said:
It’s their trump card (may be). It’s more powerful kept in their handAlastairMeeks said:
I expect so. But they haven’t, and for a good reason.Charles said:
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.
0 -
I think a VoNC would fatally weaken May even if the ERG can’t Guarantee who would replace herAlastairMeeks said:
It only works if you have the strength. The ERG don’t.Charles said:
It’s the Samson strategy. MAD but may be effective as a threat (but the DUP is better at it)AlastairMeeks said:
More like, it’s only playable if you can win the vote that follows. Obviously they can’t, and everyone realises that.Charles said:
It’s their trump card (may be). It’s more powerful kept in their handAlastairMeeks said:
I expect so. But they haven’t, and for a good reason.Charles said:
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.0 -
A failed vote of no confidence keeps her in place for a year. If the ERG could win, she’d already be gone. They can’t so they’re all piss and wind.Charles said:
I think a VoNC would fatally weaken May even if the ERG can’t Guarantee who would replace herAlastairMeeks said:
It only works if you have the strength. The ERG don’t.Charles said:
It’s the Samson strategy. MAD but may be effective as a threat (but the DUP is better at it)AlastairMeeks said:
More like, it’s only playable if you can win the vote that follows. Obviously they can’t, and everyone realises that.Charles said:
It’s their trump card (may be). It’s more powerful kept in their handAlastairMeeks said:
I expect so. But they haven’t, and for a good reason.Charles said:
The people I had dinner with earlier in the week were absolutely confident they could get the 48 letters anytime they wantedAlastairMeeks said:
Or, more correctly, at least four more.Scott_P said:
Given recent events, it speaks volumes that the headbangers still haven’t felt that triggering a leadership contest was a good idea. It might happen by accident, which would cause all kids of problems for everyone with ambitions in the Conservative party.0 -
The biggest collection of smug big brains, bound together by every advantage the Establishment could dream up, lost the unloseable Referendum.Scott_P said:
Remain lost because Farage's Little Englanders won the day.SeanT said:You STILL haven't worked out why you lost.
To Nigel Farage.
I can see why you are still in pain. That's not just painful. That's an eighteen inch dildo up the jacksy, each and every day, painful.0 -
And STILL the Brexiteers haven't worked out what's coming their way...MarqueeMark said:That's not just painful. That's an eighteen inch dildo up the jacksy, each and every day, painful.
0 -
Haha that video is hilarious. Thanks for sharing. It is true though - calling leavers ‘little Englanders’ is going to do nothing more than to sow more division.SeanT said:
The second comment came after you - yet again - labelled me as a racist simply for voting LEAVE. It hardened my heart. And you still don't understand why.Scott_P said:
Is that what Brexiteers really think?SeanT said:Just because we Leavers won (narrowly) do we get to ignore the 16 million Brits who wanted to stay in Europe? No. Morally, politically, emotionally, we don't.
No
That is what Brexiteers really think.SeanT said:See, there you go. I despise you all over again, and would rather No Deal just so you have to SUCK IT UP. Wanker.
You arrogant tossers will never learn, and you deserved to lose.
Twats.
I know you've seen this video. My advice is watch it again, and again, and again, until you - even with your painfully restrained IQ - begin to see why it is both funny and piercingly accurate, and why you guys would lose another referendum.
https://twitter.com/StigAbell/status/10495656398772346880 -
Wollaston's position is even more bizarre when you realise she "switched" because she thought the NHS claims on that bus were risible. And then May goes and awards the NHS EVEN MORE extra per week than was on that bus.SeanT said:
All the polling shows that, if any politician made a difference on the day, it was Boris. Not Farage.MarqueeMark said:
The biggest collection of smug big brains, bound together by every advantage the Establishment could dream up, lost the unloseable Referendum.Scott_P said:
Remain lost because Farage's Little Englanders won the day.SeanT said:You STILL haven't worked out why you lost.
To Nigel Farage.
I can see why you are still in pain. That's not just painful. That's an eighteen inch dildo up the jacksy, each and every day, painful.
He's lost cachet since, but Bozza was the crucial political figure that probably tilted the scales. Farage was already factored in (and also ignored in crucial debates, etc).
Gove was probably a distant 2nd.
My personal favourite, however, was Sarah Wollaston, who apparently, actually and painfully campaigned for LEAVE, before, miraculously, seeing the light and suddenly switching to REMAIN, in a move that was in no-way planned and did not look transparently false and mendacious, absolutely not, Nope. No no no.
I see she is now so REMAIN she is part of the Clarke Soubry camp. lol. That's quite some conversion.
The REMAIN campaign of 2016 was the biggest fucking disaster in the history of electoral politics (and that includes Theresa May's 2017 election). Discuss.
And she's my MP.0 -
She can't get it through the budgetMarqueeMark said:And then May goes and awards the NHS EVEN MORE extra per week than was on that bus.
0 -
Brexit is more important to them than the Union.Gallowgate said:calling leavers ‘little Englanders’ is going to do nothing more than to sow more division.
Little Englanders is an entirely accurate term0 -
Then there'll be an election, where it will be in the manifesto.....Scott_P said:
She can't get it through the budgetMarqueeMark said:And then May goes and awards the NHS EVEN MORE extra per week than was on that bus.
0
This discussion has been closed.