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  • TGOHF said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    I thought there were no Lib/Lab marginals...
    There are very, very few. But Libs going Lab in Tory marginals can help Lab win therein... that was more my point.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    I thought there were no Lib/Lab marginals...
    There are very, very few. But Libs going Lab in Tory marginals can help Lab win therein... that was more my point.
    Or help the blues increase their majorities over the yellers....

  • TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    I thought there were no Lib/Lab marginals...
    There are very, very few. But Libs going Lab in Tory marginals can help Lab win therein... that was more my point.
    Or help the blues increase their majorities over the yellers....

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    I thought there were no Lib/Lab marginals...
    There are very, very few. But Libs going Lab in Tory marginals can help Lab win therein... that was more my point.
    Or help the blues increase their majorities over the yellers....

    Which won't make any difference, I shouldn't think. I very much doubt anyone is forecasting that the Libs will gain seats from the Cons.

    Where it might help the Tories is where they are challenging the Libs.

    (but I suspect the whole thing will make no difference so just chewing the cud)

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    SeanT is a lucky bastard, having so many luxury travel offers he might have to turn some of them down:

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Link to the Matt Ridley Times piece for those with a subscription:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article3979984.ece

    "Successful societies can’t afford monkey business"
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    I thought there were no Lib/Lab marginals...
    There are very, very few. But Libs going Lab in Tory marginals can help Lab win therein... that was more my point.
    Or help the blues increase their majorities over the yellers....

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    I thought there were no Lib/Lab marginals...
    There are very, very few. But Libs going Lab in Tory marginals can help Lab win therein... that was more my point.
    Or help the blues increase their majorities over the yellers....

    Which won't make any difference, I shouldn't think. I very much doubt anyone is forecasting that the Libs will gain seats from the Cons.

    Where it might help the Tories is where they are challenging the Libs.

    (but I suspect the whole thing will make no difference so just chewing the cud)

    A number of people have forecast that the Lib Dems will make a few ( but not necessarily net ) gains from the Conservatives in 2015 .
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Wythenshawe
    "Five of the [UKIP] candidates on the shortlist are local and one is from London. A candidate will be announced on Thursday."

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/01/ukip-prepares-spooking-campaign-for-wythenshawe-by-election/
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited January 2014

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    He thinks he is right. People racked by self-doubt are unlikely to go into politics. That's what stops me wanting to be Prime Minister: it's not that I don't know how to bring peace to the Middle East and end world poverty; it's that I know I don't know.
    The L/Dems are cracking up, and Lord Carlile, Rennards defender, is another peer who has nothing to be proud of; they all have the morals of the lowest of the low:


    NO WONDER LORD CARLILE WANTS AN INJUNCTION!
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-431884/Anti-terror-peer-dumps-boring-wife-glamorous-barrister.html#ixzz2r3OXiBkU
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    On topic, it's clearly unfortunate to get four brand new Tory female MPs choosing to quit within only 4 years of being elected.

    I suspect it's a function of several things; however, I do wonder if the culture of the HoC and the Conservative Party has a lot to do with it. The HoC can feel like an old gentleman's club as it is (even when just visiting the place) and my understanding from speaking to two new Tory MPs is that support is very limited when you're elected. It's almost a case of 'here's your pass, now off you go'. This might not mesh with what some candidates were told before they were elected. I'm not sure Labour have the same problem and I have witnessed some pretty macho behaviour by male Tory PPCs/MPs at conferences in the past. This was rarely overly sexist, but it wasn't exactly exclusive. If these female MPs had an 'a-list' or 'cameroon' tag, that won't have helped either.

    On course, on top of all that, you've got the limited career options and the almost instant opprobrium that's now thrown at you the minute you become an MP. In the medium/long-term these pose even bigger challenges for the quality of our politicians and, consequently, our politics.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Been a busy boy.

    But are the Q4 growth figs out tomorrow?

    And does anyone know what the figure is predicted to be?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    MikeK said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    He thinks he is right. People racked by self-doubt are unlikely to go into politics. That's what stops me wanting to be Prime Minister: it's not that I don't know how to bring peace to the Middle East and end world poverty; it's that I know I don't know.
    The L/Dems are cracking up, and Lord Carlile, Rennards defender, is another peer who has nothing to be proud of; they all have the morals of the lowest of the low:


    NO WONDER LORD CARLILE WANTS AN INJUNCTION!
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-431884/Anti-terror-peer-dumps-boring-wife-glamorous-barrister.html#ixzz2r3OXiBkU
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    Are you going for a new record for out-of-date links?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    MikeK said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    He thinks he is right. People racked by self-doubt are unlikely to go into politics. That's what stops me wanting to be Prime Minister: it's not that I don't know how to bring peace to the Middle East and end world poverty; it's that I know I don't know.
    The L/Dems are cracking up, and Lord Carlile, Rennards defender, is another peer who has nothing to be proud of; they all have the morals of the lowest of the low:


    NO WONDER LORD CARLILE WANTS AN INJUNCTION!
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-431884/Anti-terror-peer-dumps-boring-wife-glamorous-barrister.html#ixzz2r3OXiBkU
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    What do you hope to gain by posting a story many years old as if it was current . Methinks you are the one cracking up .
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,494
    Patrick said:



    I believe NPXMP voted with the governments of Blair and Brown 100% of the time. But that's fine coz they never put forward anything stupid, damaging, divisive, self serving or illegal.

    Nope. Voted against Labour whip and/or majority of PLP 35 times.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    DavidL said:

    Hugh said:

    This Tory woman sounds sensible

    The Conservative Party needs to spend less time talking about people and things it hates and more time talking about those it likes, a Tory Treasury minister has warned.

    Nicky Morgan, the economic secretary, said in order to win in 2015 the party needed to set out a "positive long term plan" - especially if it wanted to win over female voters.

    Speaking at an event for Tory activists in Westminster on Monday evening, Morgan said the party needed to have a more constructive message than simply "we're against this, we're anti-that, we don't like them, we don't want them here, we don't want them doing this".

    "If we talk about what we hate all the time, we're not talking about we like and what we want to do to help people who want to do well," she said. "We never say actually we are on the side of these people, we want this to happen and we think this is great."



    Must be frustrating for people like her that the likes of George Osborne and Lynton "hate a foreigner or poor person a week" Crosby are following the Nasty Party route instead.


    She makes a very valid point. There are those famous "hard working families" of course but the tory party should remember its roots as the party not just of landowners but shopkeepers, small businessmen (and women) and the aspirational classes who want a property owning democracy. They are what Thatcher tapped into.

    There are more self employed in this country than ever before and we have an excellent record in new business formation. Tory ministers do not talk about this nearly enough and let the perception that they are all about big business and even big government take hold.
    I'm not convinced Lynton Crosby is the answer. I know he helped mastermind Boris' election victories but those were mayoral elections. And the 2012 campaign wasn't as impressive as the 2008 one. He tried the negative approach for a UK general election in 2005 - it didn't exactly yield great results. There is a cynical view to say that, because politicians are so disliked and distrusted, there's no point trying to present a positive vision. But that's a very depressing strategy. I'd have thought at least some attempt at a positive umbrella and future roadmap is needed. Poor grammar aside, it'd be nice to see a Conservative answer to Labour's 'Ambitions for Britain' and 'Britain: forward not back' in 2001 and 2005, respectively.

    If there is a benefit, I hope it's to give the general election campaign coherence unlike the disjointed mess we had last time.

  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25827061

    A quarter of young people in the UK now live with their parents, official figures show.

    The Office for National Statistics (ONS) said more than 3.3 million adults between the ages of 20 and 34 were living with parents in 2013, 26% of that age group.

    The number has increased by a quarter, or 669,000 people, since 1996.

    This is despite the fact that the number of 20 to 34-year-olds in the UK remains almost the same, the ONS said.

    In 1996, the earliest year for which comparable statistics are available, there were 2.7m 20 to 34-year-olds living in the family home - 21% of the age group at that time.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    1/10 favourites focus on bad mouthing the opposition rather than outlining what they would do...

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/20/labour-campaign-to-combat-ukip-threat
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Coral: Ever optimistic staff at a @Coral shop in East London... http://t.co/ZzzNtC7owy
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    isam said:

    1/10 favourites focus on bad mouthing the opposition rather than outlining what they would do...

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/20/labour-campaign-to-combat-ukip-threat

    Bit underhand but
    They are probably far enough ahead they can experiment with propaganda to see effect on vote share.

    "The leaflets are being piloted to see if they should be used in the local elections in May."
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Pulpstar said:


    Bit underhand

    Underhand? It's politics.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Neil said:

    Pulpstar said:


    Bit underhand

    Underhand? It's politics.
    Could well backfire though - a dangerous game !
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,471
    UKIP out campaigning before 8am this morning. Quite impressed, can't see other parties bothering on a cold foggy January day.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Jonathan said:

    UKIP out campaigning before 8am this morning. Quite impressed, can't see other parties bothering on a cold foggy January day.

    You are of the Wythenshawe parish, am I correct in thinking ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    F1: Tony Fernandes, boss of Caterham, threatens to leave F1 if Caterham don't improve this year:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25833881

    I'm not sure the football comparison he makes is fair. There have been periods of dominance for individual teams in football, and in 2009 Brawn came from nowhere to take both titles. In the first 7 races of 2012 there were 7 different winners.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:
    D-, Would say must try harder, but suspect failure's due to lack of understanding rather than effort.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    If I were involved with UKIPs campaign in Labour areas, I would rebut their criticisms by saying Labours policies have incentivised millions of poor people to waste their lives claiming benefits while the immigrants Labour imported are climbing the social ladder ahead of them... UKIP want to help make such people active members of society by scrapping all taxes on minimum wage jobs, creating more job opportunites by reducing immigration, etc etc

    Id give out free copies of 1984 to show them what will become of England if they keep voting for the nightmare of socialism
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    corporeal said:

    isam said:
    D-, Would say must try harder, but suspect failure's due to lack of understanding rather than effort.
    Merely the messenger, barely bothered to read it

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2014
    Rennard confirms intends to take legal action:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25820928
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    isam said:

    corporeal said:

    isam said:
    D-, Would say must try harder, but suspect failure's due to lack of understanding rather than effort.
    Merely the messenger, barely bothered to read it

    The first criticism is:

    "Result: someone whose moral failings are plain for all to see comes within a whisker of being elected party leader."

    Which is apparently a problem unique to the Lib Dems...
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited January 2014
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Jack Nicklaus is 74 today.

    Tiger is 38 and opens his 2014 campaign this week at Torrey Pines, where he has already won 8 times.

    For the first time he is falling behind Nicklaus' schedule on reaching 18 major championships.

    Last year he played some great golf - except in the Majors, where he was 20+ over par on weekend rounds.

    It's been 5 years now since he won one and is stuck on 14.

    All the majors this year are on courses he plays well.

    Only one player has ever won 4 majors after turning 38 - Jack Nicklaus.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    He thinks he is right. People racked by self-doubt are unlikely to go into politics. That's what stops me wanting to be Prime Minister: it's not that I don't know how to bring peace to the Middle East and end world poverty; it's that I know I don't know.
    The L/Dems are cracking up, and Lord Carlile, Rennards defender, is another peer who has nothing to be proud of; they all have the morals of the lowest of the low:


    NO WONDER LORD CARLILE WANTS AN INJUNCTION!
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-431884/Anti-terror-peer-dumps-boring-wife-glamorous-barrister.html#ixzz2r3OXiBkU
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    What do you hope to gain by posting a story many years old as if it was current . Methinks you are the one cracking up .
    I apologise if the story is old hat. however the story on the Mail Online shows todays date.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    edited January 2014
    Tim_B said:

    Jack Nicklaus is 74 today.

    Tiger is 38 and opens his 2014 campaign this week at Torrey Pines, where he has already won 8 times.

    For the first time he is falling behind Nicklaus' schedule on reaching 18 major championships.

    Last year he played some great golf - except in the Majors, where he was 20+ over par on weekend rounds.

    It's been 5 years now since he won one and is stuck on 14.

    All the majors this year are on courses he plays well.

    Only one player has ever won 4 majors after turning 38 - Jack Nicklaus.

    What odds on Tiger winning a major this year? I'd fancy him to do it.

    Found the odds.

    Tiger to win a major in 2014, 6/4.

    I'd reckon it as a decent bet, but would bow to your golfing knowledge.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    Is Lord Rennard a Labour shill?

    a) he keeps the Coalition in the (bad) news for ages
    b) he pushes anymore leftie Lib waverers into Labour's arms*

    *or so you would think from reading this blog. I suspect it will make little difference

    He thinks he is right. People racked by self-doubt are unlikely to go into politics. That's what stops me wanting to be Prime Minister: it's not that I don't know how to bring peace to the Middle East and end world poverty; it's that I know I don't know.
    The L/Dems are cracking up, and Lord Carlile, Rennards defender, is another peer who has nothing to be proud of; they all have the morals of the lowest of the low:


    NO WONDER LORD CARLILE WANTS AN INJUNCTION!
    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-431884/Anti-terror-peer-dumps-boring-wife-glamorous-barrister.html#ixzz2r3OXiBkU
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    What do you hope to gain by posting a story many years old as if it was current . Methinks you are the one cracking up .
    I apologise if the story is old hat. however the story on the Mail Online shows todays date.
    He has been married to Alison Levitt since December 2007 . Perhaps you will learn not to believe everything you read on Mail Online .
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Senior's right. The only newspaper you can trust is the Sunil on Sunday.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Possibly – But I think they have enough on their plate, without the added hassle of a murder rap.
  • corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    edited January 2014

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Possibly – But I think they have enough on their plate, without the added hassle of a murder rap.
    Maybe they could shoot them in the foot and claim a defence of tit for tat.
  • Neil said:

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.

    Party traditionalists would want to shoot their dogs.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    corporeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    corporeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    corporeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    corporeal said:

    Topping

    You're not showing any evidence to support this though.

    If they were really protest voters then they wouldn't have left the Lib Dems for the Labour party, they'd have either not voted or gone to one of the smaller parties.

    If voters went Lab-LD-Lab, that suggests they're left leaning rather than NOTA.

    They were left leaning. They were (and now are agaiin) Lab supporters but couldn't, after all the craziness of Blair-Brown, bring themselves to vote Lab. So they chose the next most obvious left-leaning (hitherto NOTA) party: the LibDems.

    The LibDems have disappointed them by not bringing back Clause Four while in coalition with the Tories, so those voters are (now indicating to the polls that they are) back with Lab. Of course GE2015 might prove otherwise.
    Hitherto NOTA?

    So before GE 2010 they were a NOTA? That's an equally bizarre claim.
    OK look, before GE2010 the LDs were a well-constituted party with a manifesto and all the trappings of a party that wanted to be in power. But they had some, shall we call them "out there" policies and were not a million miles in sight of being elected with a majority to govern.

    But that's not what I meant - a significant amount of their support was from NOTA voters. It was participating in the cut-and-thrust of UK politics, giving Lab-Con a bit of a bloody nose (of sorts), while not having to deal with the implications still less responsibility of power. But then they ended up in power and the events I described above transpired.
    Any foundation to this, Lib Dems as NOTA party theory? As opposed to the simpler explanation that a coalition with the Conservatives was unpalatable to a chunk of Lib Dems who then went to Labour?
    Yes.

    I've spoken to every voter who put a cross in the LibDem box because it was a NOTA vote. And they confirm my theory.

    I apologise if you and some of your fellow "true" LibDems thought every LD vote was a sincere and enthusiastic vote for a LD govt but it wasn't and ain't so. Sorry to break it to you.
    You're sliding goalposts around. You've gone from declaring that the Lib Dems were a NOTA party, to 'not every vote wasn't NOTA'.

    Were some votes NOTA votes sure, were they a NOTA party, rubbish.
    Oh gawd Freddie Ayer where art thou?

    "The LibDems is a NOTA party" is consistent with NOTA voters voting for the LibDems. It doesn't mean that every LibDem vote is a NOTA vote.

    Step back, take in the wood - nice view, right?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188
    edited January 2014
    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    You're confusing Nick Clegg with Jeremy Thorpe*

    Does Lord Rennard or Lord Carlile own any dogs?

    *Yes I know he was found innocent, just like Lord Rennard

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    On topic, it's clearly unfortunate to get four brand new Tory female MPs choosing to quit within only 4 years of being elected.

    I suspect it's a function of several things; however, I do wonder if the culture of the HoC and the Conservative Party has a lot to do with it. The HoC can feel like an old gentleman's club as it is (even when just visiting the place) and my understanding from speaking to two new Tory MPs is that support is very limited when you're elected. It's almost a case of 'here's your pass, now off you go'. This might not mesh with what some candidates were told before they were elected. I'm not sure Labour have the same problem and I have witnessed some pretty macho behaviour by male Tory PPCs/MPs at conferences in the past. This was rarely overly sexist, but it wasn't exactly exclusive. If these female MPs had an 'a-list' or 'cameroon' tag, that won't have helped either.

    On course, on top of all that, you've got the limited career options and the almost instant opprobrium that's now thrown at you the minute you become an MP. In the medium/long-term these pose even bigger challenges for the quality of our politicians and, consequently, our politics.

    Oh dear, those poor ladies. Sixty-odd thousand a year, plus the best expenses regime in the country (tell me who else gets such a free ride by HMRC), no compulsory hours of work, no performance standards. But some of their colleagues might not be very nice and they didn't have their little hands held and they are not all going to make SoS inside five years. FFS!

    11% of them don't like it (what is the equivalent figure for male members elected for the first time in 2010 does anyone know?). Well, they can piss off because there are lots of people male, and female, who would give their eye teeth for the opportunity that these women had.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Patrick said:



    I believe NPXMP voted with the governments of Blair and Brown 100% of the time. But that's fine coz they never put forward anything stupid, damaging, divisive, self serving or illegal.

    Nope. Voted against Labour whip and/or majority of PLP 35 times.

    35 times? Wow! You rebel, you.
    How many votes were there in the House of Commons between 1997 and 2010?
    Just to the nearest 500 should be enough to give us a rebellion percentage; cheers.

  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Defeat no. 87 for this supposed coalition.This time on the gagging bill.I delivered the 38 degrees petition to my MP,on behalf of the Countryside Alliance,Unite,Womens'Institute,not to mention hundreds of charities-the range of political opposition being the point which might enter their cognitive processes.Yet,the real lobbying industry aren't touched.
    Dave said lobbying would be the next big scandal.It still might as this bill won't hit the target.
    Must be some kind of record?
  • Dammit beaten by Mr Nabavi.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited January 2014
    corporeal said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Possibly – But I think they have enough on their plate, without the added hassle of a murder rap.
    Maybe they could shoot them in the foot and claim a defence of tit for tat.
    Good point, and if David Steele has come out of the woodwork - Dame Shirley Williams can’t be far behind.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    corporeal said:

    Tim_B said:

    Jack Nicklaus is 74 today.

    Tiger is 38 and opens his 2014 campaign this week at Torrey Pines, where he has already won 8 times.

    For the first time he is falling behind Nicklaus' schedule on reaching 18 major championships.

    Last year he played some great golf - except in the Majors, where he was 20+ over par on weekend rounds.

    It's been 5 years now since he won one and is stuck on 14.

    All the majors this year are on courses he plays well.

    Only one player has ever won 4 majors after turning 38 - Jack Nicklaus.

    What odds on Tiger winning a major this year? I'd fancy him to do it.

    Found the odds.

    Tiger to win a major in 2014, 6/4.

    I'd reckon it as a decent bet, but would bow to your golfing knowledge.
    Tiger's game is back and he's playing really well - he won 5 times last year and was voted player of the year. He's back at #1.

    But Tiger's career will be measured by whether he passes 18 majors, a yardstick he set up.

    He plays average at best in Majors on Thursday and Friday, but plays badly on weekends (only 1 round under 70 weekends at majors in 2013). That tells you he's feeling the pressure as the calendar moves inexorably on.

    He still has the game and experience to win majors. His problem is between his ears, the fact that his driver increasingly lets him down and he pulls it badly left, and the fact that nobody's scared of him any more.

    Having said that, he is Tiger after all, so cannot be counted out. But he needs to win one soon to have any chance of passing Nicklaus.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Dame Shirley Williams can’t be far behind.

    You think she might complain about harassment too?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Neil said:

    Dame Shirley Williams can’t be far behind.

    You think she might complain about harassment too?
    Stop that immediately – I’m about to start supper. ; )
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Anecdote alert: my other half (a builder, not particularly interested in politics, but he has firm views on things) announced last night that the Lib Dems looked as though they were stuffed full of chauvinists, and "that just isn't acceptable in this day and age".

    When a builder is handing out lessons to anyone about political correctness, you know they're in trouble.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2014
    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    I would rebut their criticisms by saying Labours policies have incentivised millions of poor people to waste their lives claiming benefits while the immigrants Labour imported are climbing the social ladder ahead of them.

    Id give out free copies of 1984 to show them what will become of England if they keep voting for the nightmare of socialism

    Badmouthing the opposition eh. Tut. Typical of the Political Classes.
    No no, rebutting criticisms

    EDIT; Hahaha you edited out the positive plans in response to the criticisms!!! Brilliant! Straight down the old memory hole eh?!!
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2014
    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    I would rebut their criticisms by saying Labours policies have incentivised millions of poor people to waste their lives claiming benefits while the immigrants Labour imported are climbing the social ladder ahead of them.

    Id give out free copies of 1984 to show them what will become of England if they keep voting for the nightmare of socialism

    Badmouthing the opposition eh. Tut. Typical of the Political Classes.
    No no, rebutting criticisms

    Labour are rebutting criticisms by pointing out that UKIP want to destroy the rights of low paid workers, decimate public services, change the tax system so a banker pays the same rate as his cleaner etc etc.

    EDIT I'm sure Labour will be mentioning their positive stuff such as the energy price freeze alongside their "rebuttal" of UKIP's criticisms.
    Oh, I haven't seen the planned UKIP Wythenshaw leaflets criticsing Labour, only the Labour rebuttal. Have you a link?

    Also, I criticised Labours badmouthing of UKIP because they were 1/10 favourites to win the constituency, and therefore should have the confidence to be positive. Im not saying that politics shouldnt sometimes be about attacking the opponents policies
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    antifrank said:

    Anecdote alert: my other half (a builder, not particularly interested in politics, but he has firm views on things) announced last night that the Lib Dems looked as though they were stuffed full of chauvinists, and "that just isn't acceptable in this day and age".

    When a builder is handing out lessons to anyone about political correctness, you know they're in trouble.

    Im sorry to sound old fashioned, but surely Im not the only one thinking that an openly gay builder isn't exactly at the Neanderthal end of the professions viewpoint
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
  • Via William Hill

    @WillHillBet: With both starting for #MCFC, would you fancy Alvaro Negredo and Sergio Aguero both to score at anytime @ 13/8?
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    @TSE this is what I'm drinking tonight, saw it in the shop and couldn't resist! http://www.ramsburybrewery.co.uk/real-ales/screaming-eagles.html
  • @TSE this is what I'm drinking tonight, saw it in the shop and couldn't resist! http://www.ramsburybrewery.co.uk/real-ales/screaming-eagles.html

    Blimey

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
  • Hugh said:

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    I would rebut their criticisms by saying Labours policies have incentivised millions of poor people to waste their lives claiming benefits while the immigrants Labour imported are climbing the social ladder ahead of them.

    Id give out free copies of 1984 to show them what will become of England if they keep voting for the nightmare of socialism

    Badmouthing the opposition eh. Tut. Typical of the Political Classes.
    No no, rebutting criticisms

    Labour are rebutting criticisms by pointing out that UKIP want to destroy the rights of low paid workers, decimate public services, change the tax system so a banker pays the same rate as his cleaner etc etc.

    EDIT I'm sure Labour will be mentioning their positive stuff such as the energy price freeze alongside their "rebuttal" of UKIP's criticisms.
    All easy to defend for UKIP.

    Labour have forced wages for the low paid downwards with their immigration policy, nowhere do they say they will decimate public services, the really rich currently pay less tax than their cleaner.

    As for any Labour positives, any grown up knows the energy price freeze is unworkable. Labour might be shocked at how many blue collar workers are turning to UKIP
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    Certainly better to have them there than those who assume people guilty without having seen or heard any evidence .
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    Certainly better to have them there than those who assume people guilty without having seen or heard any evidence .
    The evidence was considered broadly credible by an independent investigator.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
    So you're saying Labour dont want HoL reform ?

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    Certainly better to have them there than those who assume people guilty without having seen or heard any evidence .
    The evidence was considered broadly credible by an independent investigator.
    Some of us still remember the comments on Christopher Jefferies both on this site and in the press when he was arrested . He looks a bit wierd ... and ..he's a LIB DEM , must be guilty .
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    As currently constituted, the Liberal Democrats are not fit for purpose. “I am leader of a political party, not a sect… I can’t frogmarch someone to apologise,” Nick Clegg said on Monday. But he’s wrong. He is the leader of a sect. That’s the whole point.

    No serious political party – indeed, no credible organisation – would commission an independent inquiry into allegations as serious as those against Lord Rennard, conclude that those allegations were themselves credible, then throw their hands up and say: “There’s nothing we can do, really. Would you mind just apologising instead?”

    That’s not how modern politics works. And it’s certainly not how modern government works.
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100255895/the-lord-rennard-shambles-proves-that-the-lib-dems-are-still-unfit-for-government/
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    Certainly better to have them there than those who assume people guilty without having seen or heard any evidence .
    The evidence was considered broadly credible by an independent investigator.
    Some of us still remember the comments on Christopher Jefferies both on this site and in the press when he was arrested . He looks a bit wierd ... and ..he's a LIB DEM , must be guilty .
    Christopher Jeffries didnt do anything.

    Women who complained about Lord Rennard harassing them were found to be broadly credible. We must assume that the independent investigator believes at least some of the incidents described probably happened. But most Lib Dem peers apparently dont think that behaving in that way is serious enough to warrant losing the whip. I find that incredible.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
    So you're saying Labour dont want HoL reform ?

    No, I wouldnt say that.

  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,597
    corporeal said:

    What odds on Tiger winning a major this year? I'd fancy him to do it.

    Found the odds.

    Tiger to win a major in 2014, 6/4.

    I'd reckon it as a decent bet, but would bow to your golfing knowledge.

    I don't think 6/4 is attractive.

    He last won a major in 2008 - OK, we know what's happened since then and he may be back to number 1 but winning any major is tough.

    Pretty few majors have been won by people 38+. I think there have been a lot of instances of people going very close but ultimately they don't often win.

    See link for graph:

    http://golfmajorchampionships.com/byAge
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The SNP are really quite bizarre in their attempts to ban Fracking "Before it's too late" thay say...too late for what?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    Certainly better to have them there than those who assume people guilty without having seen or heard any evidence .
    The evidence was considered broadly credible by an independent investigator.
    Some of us still remember the comments on Christopher Jefferies both on this site and in the press when he was arrested . He looks a bit wierd ... and ..he's a LIB DEM , must be guilty .
    Christopher Jeffries didnt do anything.

    Women who complained about Lord Rennard harassing them were found to be broadly credible. We must assume that the independent investigator believes at least some of the incidents described probably happened. But most Lib Dem peers apparently dont think that behaving in that way is serious enough to warrant losing the whip. I find that incredible.
    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
    So you're saying Labour dont want HoL reform ?

    No, I wouldnt say that.

    Odd that they didn't push for it though, I;d have thought it would have been red meat for their party base.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983


    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .

    Oh, indeed. It's absolutely clear that you lot think there's nothing wrong with what happened. That's the problem.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited January 2014
    Neil said:


    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .

    Oh, indeed. It's absolutely clear that you lot think there's nothing wrong with what happened. That's the problem.
    It is also absolutely clear that you are happy with someone being punished without following the due process of law and justice especially if you have an antipathy towards them .
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
    So you're saying Labour dont want HoL reform ?

    No, I wouldnt say that.

    Odd that they didn't push for it though, I;d have thought it would have been red meat for their party base.
    They did, they obviously got rid of the hereditary peers, it was a failure on the part of the reformers to agree on a particular form of elected house that saw the existing arrangements survive.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
    So you're saying Labour dont want HoL reform ?

    No, I wouldnt say that.

    Odd that they didn't push for it though, I;d have thought it would have been red meat for their party base.
    They did, they obviously got rid of the hereditary peers, it was a failure on the part of the reformers to agree on a particular form of elected house that saw the existing arrangements survive.
    Really ? I can't say I remember Ed push hard for it.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:


    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .

    Oh, indeed. It's absolutely clear that you lot think there's nothing wrong with what happened. That's the problem.
    It is also absolutely clear that you are happy with being punished without following the due process of law and justice
    I am happy with someone being punished for their actions. The idea that getting your mates to vote against your punishment is some form of superior due process is one solely for bewildered Lib Dems.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139

    The SNP are really quite bizarre in their attempts to ban Fracking "Before it's too late" thay say...too late for what?

    I've read a report from McSporran University that they're afraid the underground tremors will effect the mating grounds of the Haggis, and cause a worldwide glut on Scotland main export.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Neil said:

    Neil said:


    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .

    Oh, indeed. It's absolutely clear that you lot think there's nothing wrong with what happened. That's the problem.
    It is also absolutely clear that you are happy with being punished without following the due process of law and justice
    I am happy with someone being punished for their actions. The idea that getting your mates to vote against your punishment is some form of superior due process is one solely for bewildered Lib Dems.
    Again you are presuming guilt when none has been proved without having seen any of the evidence . You would serve well on a jury in North Korea .
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,656

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    I've said from early on this parliament that the Lib Dems' biggest mistake was pushing for a referendum on AV rather than a fully elected Lords (or Senate), using STV.

    My main reasoning has been that Lords reform would have given the Lib Dems a good chance of holding the balance of power in the Lords, could have been delivered without the need for a referendum, and wouldn't have split the coalition. However, it has to be said that one fringe benefit is that it would have cleared out a lot of dinosaurs who are too satisfied with their own company too (and obviously not just in the Lib Dems).
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
    So you're saying Labour dont want HoL reform ?

    No, I wouldnt say that.

    Odd that they didn't push for it though, I;d have thought it would have been red meat for their party base.
    They did, they obviously got rid of the hereditary peers, it was a failure on the part of the reformers to agree on a particular form of elected house that saw the existing arrangements survive.
    Really ? I can't say I remember Ed push hard for it.
    It was in their manifesto. I imagine it will be in their next one too.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:


    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .

    Oh, indeed. It's absolutely clear that you lot think there's nothing wrong with what happened. That's the problem.
    It is also absolutely clear that you are happy with being punished without following the due process of law and justice
    I am happy with someone being punished for their actions. The idea that getting your mates to vote against your punishment is some form of superior due process is one solely for bewildered Lib Dems.
    Again you are presuming guilt when none has been proved without having seen any of the evidence . You would serve well on a jury in North Korea .
    The complaints were found to be credible, Mark. I'm not presuming anything, I'm basing my judgement on what your own independent investigator found. That intent to cause distress couldnt be proved beyond a reasonable doubt in no way means he didnt behave in a way that should have lost him the whip (or his job if he was still employed by them).
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
    So you're saying Labour dont want HoL reform ?

    No, I wouldnt say that.

    Odd that they didn't push for it though, I;d have thought it would have been red meat for their party base.
    They did, they obviously got rid of the hereditary peers, it was a failure on the part of the reformers to agree on a particular form of elected house that saw the existing arrangements survive.
    Really ? I can't say I remember Ed push hard for it.
    It was in their manifesto. I imagine it will be in their next one too.
    And the one after that.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    That would be an improvement on being there for life.
    But not an improvement on being there for 7 years.
    The Tories and the Lib Dems wanted a single, long term. I can see the reasons why. The ridiculousness of people who want to reform the Lords spending over 100 years failing to agree on what to reform it to is one of the funnier aspects of UK politics.
    So you're saying Labour dont want HoL reform ?

    No, I wouldnt say that.

    Odd that they didn't push for it though, I;d have thought it would have been red meat for their party base.
    They did, they obviously got rid of the hereditary peers, it was a failure on the part of the reformers to agree on a particular form of elected house that saw the existing arrangements survive.
    Really ? I can't say I remember Ed push hard for it.
    It was in their manifesto. I imagine it will be in their next one too.
    And the one after that.
    Almost certainly.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    On topic, it's clearly unfortunate to get four brand new Tory female MPs choosing to quit within only 4 years of being elected.

    I suspect it's a function of several things; however, I do wonder if the culture of the HoC and the Conservative Party has a lot to do with it. The HoC can feel like an old gentleman's club as it is (even when just visiting the place) and my understanding from speaking to two new Tory MPs is that support is very limited when you're elected. It's almost a case of 'here's your pass, now off you go'. This might not mesh with what some candidates were told before they were elected. I'm not sure Labour have the same problem and I have witnessed some pretty macho behaviour by male Tory PPCs/MPs at conferences in the past. This was rarely overly sexist, but it wasn't exactly exclusive. If these female MPs had an 'a-list' or 'cameroon' tag, that won't have helped either.

    On course, on top of all that, you've got the limited career options and the almost instant opprobrium that's now thrown at you the minute you become an MP. In the medium/long-term these pose even bigger challenges for the quality of our politicians and, consequently, our politics.

    Oh dear, those poor ladies. Sixty-odd thousand a year, plus the best expenses regime in the country (tell me who else gets such a free ride by HMRC), no compulsory hours of work, no performance standards. But some of their colleagues might not be very nice and they didn't have their little hands held and they are not all going to make SoS inside five years. FFS!

    11% of them don't like it (what is the equivalent figure for male members elected for the first time in 2010 does anyone know?). Well, they can piss off because there are lots of people male, and female, who would give their eye teeth for the opportunity that these women had.
    I don't think comments like that do you justice.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,656

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    Certainly better to have them there than those who assume people guilty without having seen or heard any evidence .
    The evidence was considered broadly credible by an independent investigator.
    Some of us still remember the comments on Christopher Jefferies both on this site and in the press when he was arrested . He looks a bit wierd ... and ..he's a LIB DEM , must be guilty .
    Christopher Jeffries didnt do anything.

    Women who complained about Lord Rennard harassing them were found to be broadly credible. We must assume that the independent investigator believes at least some of the incidents described probably happened. But most Lib Dem peers apparently dont think that behaving in that way is serious enough to warrant losing the whip. I find that incredible.
    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .
    A disciplinary hearing in most organisations that found that some of the incidents of the nature alleged in the Rennard case probably happened would undoubtedly result in some form of action, possibly dismissal. It doesn't go against the principles of natural justice at all; it goes against Lib Dem procedure, which is a rather different thing.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:


    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .

    Oh, indeed. It's absolutely clear that you lot think there's nothing wrong with what happened. That's the problem.
    It is also absolutely clear that you are happy with being punished without following the due process of law and justice
    I am happy with someone being punished for their actions. The idea that getting your mates to vote against your punishment is some form of superior due process is one solely for bewildered Lib Dems.
    Again you are presuming guilt when none has been proved without having seen any of the evidence . You would serve well on a jury in North Korea .
    The complaints were found to be credible, Mark. I'm not presuming anything, I'm basing my judgement on what your own independent investigator found. That intent to cause distress couldnt be proved beyond a reasonable doubt in no way means he didnt behave in a way that should have lost him the whip (or his job if he was still employed by them).
    Nor does it mean in any way that he did behave in a way that should lose him the whip .
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Via William Hill

    @WillHillBet: With both starting for #MCFC, would you fancy Alvaro Negredo and Sergio Aguero both to score at anytime @ 13/8?

    I make it 9/4 Betfair says 5/2
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,292
    I was wondering about the whereabouts of Vince Cable and his wing man Lord Oakeshott last night, they seem to have disappeared from the Libdem radar this last week. :)
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    @JBeattieMirror: Rennard ally: "You are going to see blood-letting on a scale never seen before in the Lib Dems."

    norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 30s
    Friends of @LordRennard accuse party president @timfarron of deliberately scuppering attempts to broker peace deal @LibDems

    Ahh time for popcorn.. anyone get the sense that proxy wars are in play here.
    Looks more like good old fashion civil war to me, but we do agree however on the popcorn. ; )
    Where's Vince ? Keeping his hands clean ?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 2014
    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    Hugh said:

    isam said:

    I would rebut their criticisms by saying Labours policies have incentivised millions of poor people to waste their lives claiming benefits while the immigrants Labour imported are climbing the social ladder ahead of them.

    Id give out free copies of 1984 to show them what will become of England if they keep voting for the nightmare of socialism

    Badmouthing the opposition eh. Tut. Typical of the Political Classes.
    No no, rebutting criticisms

    Labour are rebutting criticisms by pointing out that UKIP want to destroy the rights of low paid workers, decimate public services, change the tax system so a banker pays the same rate as his cleaner etc etc.

    EDIT I'm sure Labour will be mentioning their positive stuff such as the energy price freeze alongside their "rebuttal" of UKIP's criticisms.
    Oh, I haven't seen the planned UKIP Wythenshaw leaflets criticsing Labour, only the Labour rebuttal. Have you a link?
    Your preferred strategy was to badmouth your opponents. Even by saying that a vote for Labour would lead to a 1984 scenario.

    At least Labour's critique of UKIP isn't that amusingly hysterical.
    In response to leaflets from the 1/10 favoutite criticising a party that got 3.4% last time

    My criticism was that such an overwhelming favourite would need to use negative campaigning. UKIP doing it, if they did, would be justifiable as they are attacking the established party of the area and are trying to make an impact.

    Would be the exactly the same if the shoe was on the other foot, and UKIP were the incumbents resorting to slagging off a challenger rather than talk themselves up
  • Negredo scores after 2 minutes!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    I've said from early on this parliament that the Lib Dems' biggest mistake was pushing for a referendum on AV rather than a fully elected Lords (or Senate), using STV.

    My main reasoning has been that Lords reform would have given the Lib Dems a good chance of holding the balance of power in the Lords, could have been delivered without the need for a referendum, and wouldn't have split the coalition. However, it has to be said that one fringe benefit is that it would have cleared out a lot of dinosaurs who are too satisfied with their own company too (and obviously not just in the Lib Dems).
    I think the 2010 Conservative offer to the Liberal Democrats was pretty generous - they were offered a referendum on AV and an 80% elected Lords, plus other moves to beef up backbench scrutiny of the government/more free votes. So they actually had a chance to change the system for electing members in both chambers. The Lib Dems would have got Lords reform too had Labour not decided to play short-term politics with discomforting the coalition. It would have split the Tories (like Iraq did Labour) but Labour were still in 'hate the Lib Dems' mode then. I don't know why Clegg went for semi-open list, rather than STV, that's an odd one.

    The Lib Dems didn't really have the luxury of demanding STV for the HoC. Labour *were* offering AV without a referendum, but it was clear that they couldn't deliver the votes for it.

    The interesting question, for me, is what negotiations hinge on next time. If Lib Dem + Tory MPs sum to, say, 330 - and Labour fall shorter than that again - what price for a Tory-Lib Dem coalition piddly effective majority of 14-ish?

    I'd imagine Lib Dems would want something written in blood this time. I doubt they'd get a second HoC referendum only 5 years after the last. They might demand (and be offered) STV for local authorities but I'm not sure that'd be enough. Certainly not next to the 2010 offer.


  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    So...that 80/1 bet on West Ham to qualify. Really not good value indeed.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    ITV: - Former Liberal leader (Lord Steele) calls for Rennard to be reinstated.

    The group that comes out of this worst of all has to be the Lib Dem parliamentary party in the Lords. Clegg and Farron must want to shoot them all.
    Absolutely. The news on Friday that they'd cheered Rennard was the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time. What a pathetic shower.

    Just the sort of people you'd like to have there for 15 years.
    Certainly better to have them there than those who assume people guilty without having seen or heard any evidence .
    The evidence was considered broadly credible by an independent investigator.
    Some of us still remember the comments on Christopher Jefferies both on this site and in the press when he was arrested . He looks a bit wierd ... and ..he's a LIB DEM , must be guilty .
    Christopher Jeffries didnt do anything.

    Women who complained about Lord Rennard harassing them were found to be broadly credible. We must assume that the independent investigator believes at least some of the incidents described probably happened. But most Lib Dem peers apparently dont think that behaving in that way is serious enough to warrant losing the whip. I find that incredible.
    Most Lib Dem peers ( and myself FWIW ) do not think that some of the incidents probably happening is sufficient evidence to warrant losing the whip . It goes against the basic principles of natural justice .
    A disciplinary hearing in most organisations that found that some of the incidents of the nature alleged in the Rennard case probably happened would undoubtedly result in some form of action, possibly dismissal. It doesn't go against the principles of natural justice at all; it goes against Lib Dem procedure, which is a rather different thing.
    A disciplinary hearing today may well result in some form of action whereas an identical hearing 20 years ago would not . What 20 years ago would have been considered normal male/female flirting/making passes at is now considered sexual harassment worthy of punishment and also to be applied retroactively . I think that this a reason why there is a difference in opinion between generally older Lib Dems such as those in the HofL and younger ones .
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Quincel said:

    So...that 80/1 bet on West Ham to qualify. Really not good value indeed.

    They need 8 now!

    I made it 31,500/1

    Tweeted William Hill to rub them down about it , and they said they thought they were almost best price!!! It was 1000/1 on Betfair, and 500s with Lads!

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Mr Howarth writes that the current threat from the leadership is based on completely different grounds from the original inquiry into improper conduct. Now, Mr Howarth says, the leadership is effectively threatening expulsion for failing to agree with the leader:

    “Those of us who spent a lifetime in politics not doing what party leaders wanted us to do should be asking ourselves what this means. Are we in a political party any more, or are we in a fan club?
    - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/lib-dem-bloodbaths-conciliation-liberal-flame/27391#sthash.LnDbXkMh.dpuf
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    isam said:

    Quincel said:

    So...that 80/1 bet on West Ham to qualify. Really not good value indeed.

    They need 8 now!

    I made it 31,500/1

    Tweeted William Hill to rub them down about it , and they said they thought they were almost best price!!! It was 1000/1 on Betfair, and 500s with Lads!

    Almost best price? That's almost as insulting as the odds themselves!
This discussion has been closed.