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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB / Polling Matters podcast: Chequers is dead, so should

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236

    Foxy said:

    Floater said:

    Oh my god panic!!!!!!


    or not if you have more than half a brain cell
    Especially if you hold equities. FTSE 100 up over 1% and still rising after the statement.
    Yes, want assets not earning in Sterling at present.

    The Brexiteers capacity for incompetence continues to be underestimated.
    As someone who hopes to be in possession of a fairly large amount of cash in the near future, I'm trying to work out how I want to position myself in the short term.
    Horses.
  • felix said:

    I strongly support T.May as the best option to achieve a softish Brexit and thus minimise the damage caused by the decision to leave. However, I did not like the strident tone she adopted today - her anger showed through far too strongly and is only likely to provoke a hardening of attitudes. Today was a time for cool heads - not hot words.

    May's strategy from the get-go has been about staying in power. That was today was all about. It was entirely for domestic consumption and designed to get her through to the end of the Tory conference.

  • Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    Under WTO rules we should police all of our borders, but I suspect we might drag our feet. The Customs Checks at Holyhead on the other hand may be a wonder to behold....

    As we have a Common Travel Area with RoI immigration is not an issue - control of 'freedom of movement" is done in the workplace and access to services and benefits. Anyone wanting to come here and work illegally might as well come as a tourist to Luton or Stansted rather than faff around taking a ferry across the Irish Sea.
  • Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Floater said:

    Oh my god panic!!!!!!


    or not if you have more than half a brain cell
    Especially if you hold equities. FTSE 100 up over 1% and still rising after the statement.
    Yes, want assets not earning in Sterling at present.

    The Brexiteers capacity for incompetence continues to be underestimated.
    As someone who hopes to be in possession of a fairly large amount of cash in the near future, I'm trying to work out how I want to position myself in the short term.
    Horses.
    I'm not THAT hungry.
  • murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Floater said:

    As for this peoples vote.

    Where were our votes about open door immigration and getting tied to the EU?

    These so called democrats basically shouting fuck democracy when I disagree with the result.

    Not really - when the outcome of the referendum was based on a pack of lies then yes, we need to be open to all options including a second referendum/peoples' vote.
    Yes, whatever did happen to that promised recession?
    Brexit hasn't happened yet!
    Te recession was predicted to start as soon as the Leave vote in the referendum was announced.
  • Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    We can deal with illegal immigration through demand side riles (see rcs's video on immigration and the Swiss approach for details) - being fully out of the EU does away with freedom of movement mass legal immigration.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574

    murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Floater said:

    As for this peoples vote.

    Where were our votes about open door immigration and getting tied to the EU?

    These so called democrats basically shouting fuck democracy when I disagree with the result.

    Not really - when the outcome of the referendum was based on a pack of lies then yes, we need to be open to all options including a second referendum/peoples' vote.
    Yes, whatever did happen to that promised recession?
    Brexit hasn't happened yet!
    Te recession was predicted to start as soon as the Leave vote in the referendum was announced.
    And every other piece of negative economic news is because of Brexit....
  • Rees Mogg still does not understand what a No Deal Brexit is, bless him. It's what happens if the UK does not pay the money the EU believes it is owed. And, among other things, it does mean no planes landing or taking off.

    Is that the reason the stock market rose?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,030
    RobD said:

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    The UK would have to treat Ireland as it does any other country. So either some border or no tariffs all round.
    I don't think that's strictly accurate.
    The enforcement of borders is not a competence of the WTO - and the enforcement of our orders is not a competence of the EU.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    The UK would have to treat Ireland as it does any other country. So either some border or no tariffs all round.
    I don't think that's strictly accurate.
    The enforcement of borders is not a competence of the WTO - and the enforcement of our orders is not a competence of the EU.
    De jure but no de facto?
  • Rees Mogg still does not understand what a No Deal Brexit is, bless him. It's what happens if the UK does not pay the money the EU believes it is owed. And, among other things, it does mean no planes landing or taking off.

    Is that the reason the stock market rose?

    I doubt it.

  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707
    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Floater said:

    As for this peoples vote.

    Where were our votes about open door immigration and getting tied to the EU?

    These so called democrats basically shouting fuck democracy when I disagree with the result.

    Not really - when the outcome of the referendum was based on a pack of lies then yes, we need to be open to all options including a second referendum/peoples' vote.
    Yes, whatever did happen to that promised recession?
    Brexit hasn't happened yet!
    Te recession was predicted to start as soon as the Leave vote in the referendum was announced.
    And every other piece of negative economic news is because of Brexit....
    In case you haven't noticed the economy is not exactly roaring away. We are underperforming the average G7 performance.

    And ask the man on the street, how he is feeling economically?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,030
    edited September 2018
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    The UK would have to treat Ireland as it does any other country. So either some border or no tariffs all round.
    I don't think that's strictly accurate.
    The enforcement of borders is not a competence of the WTO - and the enforcement of our orders is not a competence of the EU.
    De jure but no de facto?
    That could indeed be our approach to tariffs on goods coming from south of the border.

    Indeed we could announce we are taking an explicitly French approach to the enforcement of regulations.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    edited September 2018
    Nice statement from May, but I don't really see what it means in terms of moving things forward - I don't like the lack of flexibility from the EU either, but I don't see why that will change, or how May can change without upsetting those on this side for whom any further change is unacceptable. So I presume it was really just about saving face for the time being until something, anything, can get cobbled toegther.
  • Floater said:

    Moggster says

    "Salzburg was a failure even though European leaders had been briefed about Chequers before it was agreed by the Cabinet. It indicates that the EU is not acting in good faith."

    Or the civil servants misled May about what the EU position was or would be.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Floater said:

    As for this peoples vote.

    Where were our votes about open door immigration and getting tied to the EU?

    These so called democrats basically shouting fuck democracy when I disagree with the result.

    Not really - when the outcome of the referendum was based on a pack of lies then yes, we need to be open to all options including a second referendum/peoples' vote.
    Yes, whatever did happen to that promised recession?
    Brexit hasn't happened yet!
    Te recession was predicted to start as soon as the Leave vote in the referendum was announced.
    And every other piece of negative economic news is because of Brexit....
    In case you haven't noticed the economy is not exactly roaring away. We are underperforming the average G7 performance.

    And ask the man on the street, how he is feeling economically?
    But we were promised economic armageddon. More lies! :p
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707
    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Floater said:

    As for this peoples vote.

    Where were our votes about open door immigration and getting tied to the EU?

    These so called democrats basically shouting fuck democracy when I disagree with the result.

    Not really - when the outcome of the referendum was based on a pack of lies then yes, we need to be open to all options including a second referendum/peoples' vote.
    Yes, whatever did happen to that promised recession?
    Brexit hasn't happened yet!
    Te recession was predicted to start as soon as the Leave vote in the referendum was announced.
    And every other piece of negative economic news is because of Brexit....
    In case you haven't noticed the economy is not exactly roaring away. We are underperforming the average G7 performance.

    And ask the man on the street, how he is feeling economically?
    But we were promised economic armageddon. More lies! :p
    Plenty of time for that. The calamity of a hard Brexit is incoming.
  • murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Floater said:

    As for this peoples vote.

    Where were our votes about open door immigration and getting tied to the EU?

    These so called democrats basically shouting fuck democracy when I disagree with the result.

    Not really - when the outcome of the referendum was based on a pack of lies then yes, we need to be open to all options including a second referendum/peoples' vote.
    Yes, whatever did happen to that promised recession?
    Brexit hasn't happened yet!
    Te recession was predicted to start as soon as the Leave vote in the referendum was announced.
    And every other piece of negative economic news is because of Brexit....
    In case you haven't noticed the economy is not exactly roaring away. We are underperforming the average G7 performance.

    And ask the man on the street, how he is feeling economically?
    Many of them have come here from the EU. Net increase of EU immigrants to the UK in the last year - again
  • Floater said:

    Moggster says

    "Salzburg was a failure even though European leaders had been briefed about Chequers before it was agreed by the Cabinet. It indicates that the EU is not acting in good faith."

    Or the civil servants misled May about what the EU position was or would be.
    I wonder whether May was being dropped any hints by EU leaders and feels like she was led on.

    Or whether she was misadvised by top civil servants who had misread the situation (perhaps because they thought they had made a "clever" solution of their own - civil servants do like feeling clever) and feels let down.

    Or whether she knew it was a disaster waiting to happen but felt she had to be seen to try.

    I also wonder whether David Davis had a better grip on what the EU would actually find workable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    tpfkar said:

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    Notable that TM said she would *guarantee* EU citizens rights, and *try* to avoid a hard NI border today - first confession I've heard that a hard border may be unavoidable.

    Was I the only person who thought that "the quiet woman is here to stay and she's turning up the volume" today? Not sure that the time-honoured convention of getting through to Europeans by talking slower and louder is really going to do the trick.
    I doubt it will, and I thought the same on the NI border issue. But I seriously doubt May genuinely thinks the problem is that the Europeans don't get what she is saying. I think there is a part of that, because I think the reports the EU was baffled at May's rebuff on the border issue would suggest they really don't understand why splitting a country apart would be a big deal, but as she herself pointed out the issues that are holding things up are actually very simple to understand, it's just that politically neither thinks they can back down.

    Maybe I'm reading into it, but the reference to no PM being able to agree what the EU want in NI makes me think that is the signal the EU - look, drop that and maybe I can backslide on the other bit? The other issue and not respecting the referendum etc are a matter of interpretation, and I really don't know how she would backslide on that and get anything through, but that's at least possible, but the NI seems much more intractable.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 1,092

    Floater said:

    Moggster says

    "Salzburg was a failure even though European leaders had been briefed about Chequers before it was agreed by the Cabinet. It indicates that the EU is not acting in good faith."

    Or the civil servants misled May about what the EU position was or would be.
    Or the civil servants told May the EU leaders wouldn't like Chequers and they went ahead with briefing on it anyway? I mean, the suggestions are that after Ivan the Terrible left that all the top civil servants just became "yes men" to placate the PM, but I still think that if the EU are this annoyed by Chequers that the civil service would have made it clear.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    murali_s said:

    Floater said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Jonathan said:

    So Mays Brexit policy is broken and she is relying on the EU to get her out of it. It’s not a good look. She good be gone sooner than you think. He only question is what next.

    What's this bullsh*t about counter-proposal from the EU. We are the idiots leaving! LOL!
    If you think a no deal Brexit has no negative consequences for the EU then you may be right. If it does have negative consequences it's worth them doing some thinking about how to move talks forward.
    Maybe but with every nasty divorce, one side (us) gets pummeled more than the other.

    Leavers = thick (ugly) mofos!
    The only thing ugly I see around here is your personality in your posts.
    Oh dear! You don't like my posts - just ignore me.

    Our country is on the edge of a precipice having made a monumental error and all you can do is talk about my personality. Jeez!
    Everytime I conclude that there are no more unpleasant, sanctimonious windbagging blowhards than the Brexit contingent here, you pop up to remind me that every coin has two sides.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 1,092
    kle4 said:

    tpfkar said:

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    Notable that TM said she would *guarantee* EU citizens rights, and *try* to avoid a hard NI border today - first confession I've heard that a hard border may be unavoidable.

    Was I the only person who thought that "the quiet woman is here to stay and she's turning up the volume" today? Not sure that the time-honoured convention of getting through to Europeans by talking slower and louder is really going to do the trick.
    I doubt it will, and I thought the same on the NI border issue. But I seriously doubt May genuinely thinks the problem is that the Europeans don't get what she is saying. I think there is a part of that, because I think the reports the EU was baffled at May's rebuff on the border issue would suggest they really don't understand why splitting a country apart would be a big deal, but as she herself pointed out the issues that are holding things up are actually very simple to understand, it's just that politically neither thinks they can back down.

    Maybe I'm reading into it, but the reference to no PM being able to agree what the EU want in NI makes me think that is the signal the EU - look, drop that and maybe I can backslide on the other bit? The other issue and not respecting the referendum etc are a matter of interpretation, and I really don't know how she would backslide on that and get anything through, but that's at least possible, but the NI seems much more intractable.
    Oh, I saw the "No PM" thing as an attempt to get the press to question JC on the issue, and to generally continue the hinting at "the choice is me or JC"
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Rees Mogg still does not understand what a No Deal Brexit is, bless him. It's what happens if the UK does not pay the money the EU believes it is owed. And, among other things, it does mean no planes landing or taking off.

    It also means no aircraft flying over the North Atlantic given where the relevant ATC is sited.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    edited September 2018

    What a f888king hypocrite and cretin that man is. "The EU bullies"!! FFS. It isn't the dormitory at Eton Jacob, and it wasn't the 27 sovereign nations that started all this crap.
    While he is often peddling bad ideas and options on this issue, and I don't intend to share his complaints about bullying, what has 'who started it' got to do with whether someone is being reasonable or not (in the sense of acting like a bully)? If I stand on someone's toe deliberately they would still be more in the wrong if they punched me in the face. Again, I'm not saying necessarily that the EU is behaving unreasonably, but that we started the Brexit process does not speak to the reasonableness of any EU response at all.
  • Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    Under WTO rules we should police all of our borders, but I suspect we might drag our feet. The Customs Checks at Holyhead on the other hand may be a wonder to behold....

    As we have a Common Travel Area with RoI immigration is not an issue - control of 'freedom of movement" is done in the workplace and access to services and benefits. Anyone wanting to come here and work illegally might as well come as a tourist to Luton or Stansted rather than faff around taking a ferry across the Irish Sea.
    The Common Travel Area law may no longer apply. It will need to be tested because it may have been replaced for legal purposes when we entered the EU.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Floater said:

    Oh my god panic!!!!!!


    or not if you have more than half a brain cell
    Especially if you hold equities. FTSE 100 up over 1% and still rising after the statement.
    Yes, want assets not earning in Sterling at present.

    The Brexiteers capacity for incompetence continues to be underestimated.
    As someone who hopes to be in possession of a fairly large amount of cash in the near future, I'm trying to work out how I want to position myself in the short term.
    Horses.
    I'm not THAT hungry.
    You can sell them to Tesco. Arbitrage opportunities.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659

    Rees Mogg still does not understand what a No Deal Brexit is, bless him. It's what happens if the UK does not pay . And, among other things, it does mean no planes landing or taking off.

    "the money the EU believes it is owed".

    Believes it is owed. So the EU can stop our planes on the basis of an invoice it has submitted for what it thinks it is due? Jeez.

    Would the people who got us into this fucked up protection racket like to stand up and take responsibility?

    Thought not.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    148grss said:

    kle4 said:

    tpfkar said:

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    Notable that TM said she would *guarantee* EU citizens rights, and *try* to avoid a hard NI border today - first confession I've heard that a hard border may be unavoidable.

    Was I the only person who thought that "the quiet woman is here to stay and she's turning up the volume" today? Not sure that the time-honoured convention of getting through to Europeans by talking slower and louder is really going to do the trick.
    I doubt it will, and I thought the same on the NI border issue. But I seriously doubt May genuinely thinks the problem is that the Europeans don't get what she is saying. I think there is a part of that, because I think the reports the EU was baffled at May's rebuff on the border issue would suggest they really don't understand why splitting a country apart would be a big deal, but as she herself pointed out the issues that are holding things up are actually very simple to understand, it's just that politically neither thinks they can back down.

    Maybe I'm reading into it, but the reference to no PM being able to agree what the EU want in NI makes me think that is the signal the EU - look, drop that and maybe I can backslide on the other bit? The other issue and not respecting the referendum etc are a matter of interpretation, and I really don't know how she would backslide on that and get anything through, but that's at least possible, but the NI seems much more intractable.
    Oh, I saw the "No PM" thing as an attempt to get the press to question JC on the issue, and to generally continue the hinting at "the choice is me or JC"
    Maybe. I was thinking even he would not want checks on the border because he wants a United Ireland, but in that case yes he probably would support something that hived off NI from the rest of the UK.
  • kle4 said:

    Nice statement from May, but I don't really see what it means in terms of moving things forward - I don't like the lack of flexibility from the EU either, but I don't see why that will change, or how May can change without upsetting those on this side for whom any further change is unacceptable. So I presume it was really just about saving face for the time being until something, anything, can get cobbled toegther.

    May has shown significant goodwill in her comments regarding the rights of EU citizens and that should help create a more positive atmosphere for future talks.

    Her unequivocal comments re NI etc should also remove any thoughts that if the EU keeps pushing she'll keep conceding. I don't see how she can make further concessions now other than round the margins. Maybe the tone of that message will generate a more flexible attitude from the EU.
  • Floater said:

    Moggster says

    "Salzburg was a failure even though European leaders had been briefed about Chequers before it was agreed by the Cabinet. It indicates that the EU is not acting in good faith."

    Or the civil servants misled May about what the EU position was or would be.
    I wonder whether May was being dropped any hints by EU leaders and feels like she was led on.

    Or whether she was misadvised by top civil servants who had misread the situation (perhaps because they thought they had made a "clever" solution of their own - civil servants do like feeling clever) and feels let down.

    Or whether she knew it was a disaster waiting to happen but felt she had to be seen to try.

    I also wonder whether David Davis had a better grip on what the EU would actually find workable.
    David Davis to return as Brexit Sec in charge of Canada Plus negotiations?
  • Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Floater said:

    Oh my god panic!!!!!!


    or not if you have more than half a brain cell
    Especially if you hold equities. FTSE 100 up over 1% and still rising after the statement.
    Yes, want assets not earning in Sterling at present.

    The Brexiteers capacity for incompetence continues to be underestimated.
    As someone who hopes to be in possession of a fairly large amount of cash in the near future, I'm trying to work out how I want to position myself in the short term.
    Horses.
    I'm not THAT hungry.
    Horse is actually really nice. Had some lovely cured horse in Italy.
  • @AlastairMeeks here's some of that counterpoint to John Harris you were looking for:
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/09/20/how-anglicans-tipped-the-brexit-vote/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236
    kle4 said:

    What a f888king hypocrite and cretin that man is. "The EU bullies"!! FFS. It isn't the dormitory at Eton Jacob, and it wasn't the 27 sovereign nations that started all this crap.
    While he is often peddling bad ideas and options on this issue, and I don't intend to share his complaints about bullying, what has 'who started it' got to do with whether someone is being reasonable or not (in the sense of acting like a bully)? If I stand on someone's toe deliberately they would still be more in the wrong if they punched me in the face. Again, I'm not saying necessarily that the EU is behaving unreasonably, but that we started the Brexit process does not speak to the reasonableness of any EU response at all.
    "You started it" isn't much of an argument.

    A50 does entitle a country to leave the EU, and indicates that both the leaving and remaining countries will try to negotiate an agreement for the future.
  • Rees Mogg still does not understand what a No Deal Brexit is, bless him. It's what happens if the UK does not pay . And, among other things, it does mean no planes landing or taking off.

    "the money the EU believes it is owed".

    Believes it is owed. So the EU can stop our planes on the basis of an invoice it has submitted for what it thinks it is due? Jeez.

    Would the people who got us into this fucked up protection racket like to stand up and take responsibility?

    Thought not.
    Don't believe everything you read on PB.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 1,092
    kle4 said:

    148grss said:

    kle4 said:

    tpfkar said:

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    Notable that TM said she would *guarantee* EU citizens rights, and *try* to avoid a hard NI border today - first confession I've heard that a hard border may be unavoidable.

    Was I the only person who thought that "the quiet woman is here to stay and she's turning up the volume" today? Not sure that the time-honoured convention of getting through to Europeans by talking slower and louder is really going to do the trick.
    I doubt it will, and I thought the same on the NI border issue. But I seriously doubt May genuinely thinks the problem is that the Europeans don't get what she is saying. I think there is a part of that, because I think the reports the EU was baffled at May's rebuff on the border issue would suggest they really don't understand why splitting a country apart would be a big deal, but as she herself pointed out the issues that are holding things up are actually very simple to understand, it's just that politically neither thinks they can back down.

    Maybe I'm reading into it, but the reference to no PM being able to agree what the EU want in NI makes me think that is the signal the EU - look, drop that and maybe I can backslide on the other bit? The other issue and not respecting the referendum etc are a matter of interpretation, and I really don't know how she would backslide on that and get anything through, but that's at least possible, but the NI seems much more intractable.
    Oh, I saw the "No PM" thing as an attempt to get the press to question JC on the issue, and to generally continue the hinting at "the choice is me or JC"
    Maybe. I was thinking even he would not want checks on the border because he wants a United Ireland, but in that case yes he probably would support something that hived off NI from the rest of the UK.
    True, but he might be willing to say something along the lines of "this could be an issue that leads to Irish unification"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    kle4 said:

    Nice statement from May, but I don't really see what it means in terms of moving things forward - I don't like the lack of flexibility from the EU either, but I don't see why that will change, or how May can change without upsetting those on this side for whom any further change is unacceptable. So I presume it was really just about saving face for the time being until something, anything, can get cobbled toegther.

    May has shown significant goodwill in her comments regarding the rights of EU citizens and that should help create a more positive atmosphere for future talks.

    Her unequivocal comments re NI etc should also remove any thoughts that if the EU keeps pushing she'll keep conceding. I don't see how she can make further concessions now other than round the margins. Maybe the tone of that message will generate a more flexible attitude from the EU.
    Problem being that the EU needs to get something in exchange if they do get more flexible. NI I can just about see because far fewer MPs would back the EU options on the table there than the economic side of things. But they won't be flexible on both, surely, when they have unequivocally rejected what is already there.

    I think they are overthinking it, frankly, since they are clear any deal no matter how generous to the UK would be worse than still being a member, so they can afford to indulge in their patented fudge without making exiting look enticing to others.

    And as for a positive atmosphere, there was positive mood music in the weeks up to yesterday, and they came out much harsher than almost anyone expected, so what actual good does any positive atmosphere do? (I certainly don't buy the crap explanation that May's arrogant or aggressive article and stiff manner ruined things - the EU's argument has been that on a point of principle they must firmly reject May's proposal, which means that rejection in such a manner was pretty much inevitable unless they are lying about it being a point of principle).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236

    @AlastairMeeks here's some of that counterpoint to John Harris you were looking for:
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/09/20/how-anglicans-tipped-the-brexit-vote/

    The leaders of the C of E have been out of step with the laity for a very long time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
  • Mr. kle4, irks me the way they've expanded the wanky millenial definition to include those born in the 80s.
  • @AlastairMeeks here's some of that counterpoint to John Harris you were looking for:
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/09/20/how-anglicans-tipped-the-brexit-vote/

    That's very interesting, thanks. There's a much bigger piece of work to be done there though.

    This piece on the background to Donald Trump's success in the US is thought-provoking. I feel that there's work to be done on Brexit too in this area (perhaps it already has been):

    https://theintercept.com/2018/09/18/2016-election-race-class-trump/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,202
    edited September 2018

    Magic Grandpa:

    twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1043146715430350848

    From those ratings, looks like a none of the above is the winner...

    Does show again, twitter != real world. If you only went by [email protected] / faceache you would think Corbyn was one of the most popular men alive.
  • Rees Mogg still does not understand what a No Deal Brexit is, bless him. It's what happens if the UK does not pay . And, among other things, it does mean no planes landing or taking off.

    "the money the EU believes it is owed".

    Believes it is owed. So the EU can stop our planes on the basis of an invoice it has submitted for what it thinks it is due? Jeez.

    Would the people who got us into this fucked up protection racket like to stand up and take responsibility?

    Thought not.

    The UK has agreed to pay a certain amount of money (just as it agreed to the NI backstop). If the UK now says it will not pay that money, the EU will not sign the deals necessary to allow a planned No Deal to take place.

  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Floater said:

    Moggster says

    "Salzburg was a failure even though European leaders had been briefed about Chequers before it was agreed by the Cabinet. It indicates that the EU is not acting in good faith."

    Or the civil servants misled May about what the EU position was or would be.
    I wonder whether May was being dropped any hints by EU leaders and feels like she was led on.

    Or whether she was misadvised by top civil servants who had misread the situation (perhaps because they thought they had made a "clever" solution of their own - civil servants do like feeling clever) and feels let down.

    Or whether she knew it was a disaster waiting to happen but felt she had to be seen to try.

    I also wonder whether David Davis had a better grip on what the EU would actually find workable.
    David Davis to return as Brexit Sec in charge of Canada Plus negotiations?
    Given he is a lazy blowhard with a limited grasp of detail and an ending capacity for hard work, unlikely.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,030
    So that's what Trump has been doing all this time, just reaching out to the youngsters... ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236
    Nobody seems terribly popular.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    I actually like Donald Tusk. He is a loose canon that does go off-piste once in a while but he can quite funny. Put it this way, he is far more sincere and honest than most of the Tory "big guns" for example.
  • JenSJenS Posts: 85
    stodge said:


    It does seem embarrassing today of all days, and he still persists with the dishonesty of a peoples vote, rather than calling it a second referendum which it is

    IF there is no deal, there is no provision to stop A50 or withdraw it. Two years plus one day after A50 is triggered, in the absence of any agreed Transitional Period, the UK will leave the European Union, simple.

    After then, we can apply to join the EU if we wish but as a new member and on terms stipulated by the EU.

    This is why the LD and REMAIN positions are so futile - all the wishing and wanting in the world won't stop A50. The best that can be achieved is a very long transition period or an A50 deal very close to existing membership (Non EU members can sign up to the SM and CU and indeed some have) aka BINO.

    I don't doubt an extension of a few days or a week could be mutually agreed if agreement was close.
    Actually it’s not clear whether we could unilaterally reverse our Article 50 withdrawal. The Scottish courts have TODAY referred that question to - wait for it - the European Court of Justice.

    Should be interesting .....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 56,574
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    matt said:

    Floater said:

    Moggster says

    "Salzburg was a failure even though European leaders had been briefed about Chequers before it was agreed by the Cabinet. It indicates that the EU is not acting in good faith."

    Or the civil servants misled May about what the EU position was or would be.
    I wonder whether May was being dropped any hints by EU leaders and feels like she was led on.

    Or whether she was misadvised by top civil servants who had misread the situation (perhaps because they thought they had made a "clever" solution of their own - civil servants do like feeling clever) and feels let down.

    Or whether she knew it was a disaster waiting to happen but felt she had to be seen to try.

    I also wonder whether David Davis had a better grip on what the EU would actually find workable.
    David Davis to return as Brexit Sec in charge of Canada Plus negotiations?
    Given he is a lazy blowhard with a limited grasp of detail and an ending capacity for hard work, unlikely.
    At this point even that could hardly make things worse.
    AndyJS said:
    What does it take to call a snap election in Germany?
    Sean_F said:

    Nobody seems terribly popular.
    I was about to say what did we all to deserve what we have now, but then I remembered what I did to deserve it at least.
  • kle4 said:

    Nice statement from May, but I don't really see what it means in terms of moving things forward - I don't like the lack of flexibility from the EU either, but I don't see why that will change, or how May can change without upsetting those on this side for whom any further change is unacceptable. So I presume it was really just about saving face for the time being until something, anything, can get cobbled toegther.

    Yep - it was entirely for domestic consumption. A tactical move to get her through to the end of the Tory conference. She'll get some good headlines and we will move closer to a hugely damaging Brexit.

  • Floater said:

    What a pathetic spectacle we have become.

    Why - time someone stood up to the EU cabal
    It isn't a EU cabal, it is 27 democratic countries who think, quite correctly, that the UK government is being an arse. We are the ones being difficult here. It is a national embarrassment that is descending to humiliation that makes Suez look like our finest hour
    Democratic, the EU? - you are having a laugh
    The member states are democracies and the EU is more democratic than its critics sometimes give it credit for - though not as democratic as it should be. That said, if it *was* as democratic as it should be, those same critics would rail against an elected European government as a grossly overly powerful infringement on Britain's sovereignty.
    By all measures it is very democratic. Like the sovereignty issue, it is another myth perpetrated on the gullible by the manipulative. It is considerably more democratic and accountable than the UK is. When I last looked the EU does not have a hereditary president or a House of Lords. It's officials are accountable to the democratically appointed heads of government through the Council of Ministers and its parliament is elected by PR. I would say that makes it about 2x as representative and accountable as the UK executive
    Oh, nonsense. Britain's head of state has practically no political power and the Lords has little.

    The EU commission is appointed and wields great power. Some of that is genuine civil servant stuff, and that's fair enough, but the College of Commissioners does a great deal more than administer and in any other equivalent political system would be fully accountable to the parliament (i.e. could be directly removed on a VoNC) and probably selected from and elected by it, consistent with majority support within the parliament.
    It is fully accountable to the Council of Ministers, which are the elected heads of government. To pretend it is not democratic or unaccountable is either a lie or just downright ignorant. Incidentally, you clearly don't understand our bicameral legislature if you think the HoL has little power. You also undermine your own argument by saying " oh nonsense" when you clearly simply just don't agree or understand the detail
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    edited September 2018
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point whyashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
    I felt that kyf_100 nailed it for me awhile back. Even when I was in my mid 20s on PB I felt more inclined toward those older than me than those younger. Granted I am now 8 years older, and have become more of a young old fart, but I 'get' those a decade or more older a lot more than those a decade younger. Most policeman still seem old to me though!
    kyf_100 said:


    As someone the same age I have to agree, I feel as if have little in common with someone aged 25, but a great deal in common with someone aged 40.

    I grew up without mobile phones, didn't get the internet at home until I was seventeen (and even then it was an odd, geeky thing with no social media etc). 9/11 happened shortly after I left school (a 25 year old would have been just eight at the time!) and while I did march in the stop the war protest, apart from that politics just wasn't on my radar as a young adult - not in the way it seems to be an essential part of the lives of the next generation.

    There is an argument to be made that pre 1985 is the arse end of Gen X, if you count a 'generation' as 20 years (boomers, 45 - 64, X 65- 84, millenials, 85 onwards), however most strategists these days tend to put those born in the late 70s to early 80s in something called the "oregon trail" generation (named after a popular American video game from the time), "a micro-generation that serves as a bridge between the disaffection of Gen X and the blithe optimism of Millennials... remembering a time before the digital age, but barely..."

    I think the reason we stand as an odd micro-generation is because our upbringing was analog but our adult lives have been far more digital, creating quite a disconnect in the way we were raised and educated and what our expectations were (home ownership, steady job, old "pre digital" skills), vs what they turned out to be. FWIW, most of my friends are either my own age or older, I find it much harder to relate to people a great deal younger than me.

    As to how all this relates to politics, personally I feel quite disaffected in the way the life we were promised / were educated for turned out to not exist, but also completely alienated from the lefty identity politics brand of thinking, which seems like a completely alien and very recent American import.

  • Mr. Observer, that's not quite how I'd see it. The UK/May is seeking a deal, (apparently the EU wants one too). If that's agreed, the build-up steps also occur. If not, they don't.

    Or, as one man said, nothing is agreed until everything's agreed.

    If we have no deal, why would we voluntarily throw tens of billions at the EU? [Some money would still go their way, pensions liabilities, some previously announced commitments etc, but not £39bn].
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,202
    edited September 2018
    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped? And Joe Denly, not exactly looking to the future, might as well have called up Ian Bell.
  • RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    A Eurocrat, but he was elected. Elected by the Council of Ministers. Not too unlike how our PM is effectively appointed by the MPs via our unelected Head of State
  • Mr. Observer, that's not quite how I'd see it. The UK/May is seeking a deal, (apparently the EU wants one too). If that's agreed, the build-up steps also occur. If not, they don't.

    Or, as one man said, nothing is agreed until everything's agreed.

    If we have no deal, why would we voluntarily throw tens of billions at the EU? [Some money would still go their way, pensions liabilities, some previously announced commitments etc, but not £39bn].

    How you, me or the UK government sees it is entirely immaterial. It's how the EU sees it that matters. We need them to play ball if the planes are to keep on flying.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    A Eurocrat, but he was elected. Elected by the Council of Ministers. Not too unlike how our PM is effectively appointed by the MPs via our unelected Head of State
    Probably used in a colloquial sense of 'elected by the public' which our PM is (not to the position of PM, certainly, but as an MP at least) rather than a very small electorate which makes things more of an appointment. But still, technically elected.

    Like good old Viscount Thurso, elected back to the HoL in an election with 7 candidates but only 3 eligible voters.
  • Mr. Observer, that's not quite how I'd see it. The UK/May is seeking a deal, (apparently the EU wants one too). If that's agreed, the build-up steps also occur. If not, they don't.

    Or, as one man said, nothing is agreed until everything's agreed.

    If we have no deal, why would we voluntarily throw tens of billions at the EU? [Some money would still go their way, pensions liabilities, some previously announced commitments etc, but not £39bn].

    How you, me or the UK government sees it is entirely immaterial. It's how the EU sees it that matters. We need them to play ball if the planes are to keep on flying.

    Most Leavers only go to Furriner-land once a year so they won't be too worried until August, and the troops will all be home by Christmas anyway
  • Mr. Observer, if they choose to be dicks there's not much we can do about it.

    As the Klingons said: it takes two to make peace, and one to make war.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    Mr. Observer, that's not quite how I'd see it. The UK/May is seeking a deal, (apparently the EU wants one too). If that's agreed, the build-up steps also occur. If not, they don't.

    Or, as one man said, nothing is agreed until everything's agreed.

    If we have no deal, why would we voluntarily throw tens of billions at the EU? [Some money would still go their way, pensions liabilities, some previously announced commitments etc, but not £39bn].

    How you, me or the UK government sees it is entirely immaterial. It's how the EU sees it that matters. We need them to play ball if the planes are to keep on flying.

    Most Leavers only go to Furriner-land once a year so they won't be too worried until August, and the troops will all be home by Christmas anyway
    Now now, let's be consistent - I though Leavers were all expats who didn't have to worry about wot appens over here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped?

    There's one person thanking the heaven's Alistair Cook retired.
  • JenS said:

    stodge said:


    It does seem embarrassing today of all days, and he still persists with the dishonesty of a peoples vote, rather than calling it a second referendum which it is

    IF there is no deal, there is no provision to stop A50 or withdraw it. Two years plus one day after A50 is triggered, in the absence of any agreed Transitional Period, the UK will leave the European Union, simple.

    After then, we can apply to join the EU if we wish but as a new member and on terms stipulated by the EU.

    This is why the LD and REMAIN positions are so futile - all the wishing and wanting in the world won't stop A50. The best that can be achieved is a very long transition period or an A50 deal very close to existing membership (Non EU members can sign up to the SM and CU and indeed some have) aka BINO.

    I don't doubt an extension of a few days or a week could be mutually agreed if agreement was close.
    Actually it’s not clear whether we could unilaterally reverse our Article 50 withdrawal. The Scottish courts have TODAY referred that question to - wait for it - the European Court of Justice.

    Should be interesting .....
    The European Court of Justice decision on unilaterally reversing article 50 will take a few years no doubt.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,659
    Ant-semitic Grandpa has not had a good summer....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2018
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
    Lots of people born in the late 70s have been using computers since they were 5 years old. There was an explosion in personal computer ownership around 1981/1982/1983. (In fact 1982 was the official Year of the Computer according to the British government).

    https://www.wired.com/2012/12/dec-26-1982-times-top-man-the-personal-computer/
  • kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    A Eurocrat, but he was elected. Elected by the Council of Ministers. Not too unlike how our PM is effectively appointed by the MPs via our unelected Head of State
    Probably used in a colloquial sense of 'elected by the public' which our PM is (not to the position of PM, certainly, but as an MP at least) rather than a very small electorate which makes things more of an appointment. But still, technically elected.

    Like good old Viscount Thurso, elected back to the HoL in an election with 7 candidates but only 3 eligible voters.
    I once met his brother who was a very charming and eccentric man. he used to go walking on the moors in bare feet
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,821
    Floater said:

    murali_s said:

    No deal incoming.

    Because the EU is not interested in one
    It doesn't have to be. For each individual EU country it is 7%-ish of their trade. For us it is nearly half.

    Do the math.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707
    I am sorry if I have offended anyone - I will *try* to play nice from now on.

    Anyway, I think a hard Brexit is inevitable. As others have stated time is short for any meaningful deal. Is there any mechanism where A50 can be extended?
  • TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    murali_s said:

    No deal incoming.

    Because the EU is not interested in one
    It doesn't have to be. For each individual EU country it is 7%-ish of their trade. For us it is nearly half.

    Do the math.
    And Ireland?
  • TOPPING said:

    Floater said:

    murali_s said:

    No deal incoming.

    Because the EU is not interested in one
    It doesn't have to be. For each individual EU country it is 7%-ish of their trade. For us it is nearly half.

    Do the math.
    Well said. We are not that important to them. The politicians on the Leave side knew this, but they still lied to a gullible electorate anyway for their own political gain
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,821

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    Under WTO rules we should police all of our borders, but I suspect we might drag our feet. The Customs Checks at Holyhead on the other hand may be a wonder to behold....
    This is incorrect. The WTO says nothing of the sort. Under WTO rules, another WTO member could take us to arbitration if we were treating imports from, say, the RoI and the US differently under MFN. eg we were not checking RoI widgets at the border but checking US widgets.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    JenS said:

    stodge said:


    It does seem embarrassing today of all days, and he still persists with the dishonesty of a peoples vote, rather than calling it a second referendum which it is

    IF there is no deal, there is no provision to stop A50 or withdraw it. Two years plus one day after A50 is triggered, in the absence of any agreed Transitional Period, the UK will leave the European Union, simple.

    After then, we can apply to join the EU if we wish but as a new member and on terms stipulated by the EU.

    This is why the LD and REMAIN positions are so futile - all the wishing and wanting in the world won't stop A50. The best that can be achieved is a very long transition period or an A50 deal very close to existing membership (Non EU members can sign up to the SM and CU and indeed some have) aka BINO.

    I don't doubt an extension of a few days or a week could be mutually agreed if agreement was close.
    Actually it’s not clear whether we could unilaterally reverse our Article 50 withdrawal. The Scottish courts have TODAY referred that question to - wait for it - the European Court of Justice.

    Should be interesting .....
    The European Court of Justice decision on unilaterally reversing article 50 will take a few years no doubt.
    No expedited process?

    It's an interesting question, usually waved away with 'the drafter says it can' or 'political considerations would make sure the ECJ will say it can/it will be done before the ECJ rule'. The amusing part is even in the A50 case at the Supreme Court while both sides acceptable A50 was irrevocable, so the point was not looked in detail IIRC, one of the Justices did say that there was some opinion that it was.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    murali_s said:

    I am sorry if I have offended anyone - I will *try* to play nice from now on.

    Anyway, I think a hard Brexit is inevitable. As others have stated time is short for any meaningful deal. Is there any mechanism where A50 can be extended?

    Unclear I think, but a lot of people essentially say 'If we asked for it, a way would be found to allow it'.
  • Ant-semitic Grandpa has not had a good summer....
    Unsavoury people that pretend to be otherwise normally get found out in the end
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2018

    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped? And Joe Denly, not exactly looking to the future, might as well have called up Ian Bell.

    Someone ought to write a book or article on the subject of whatever happened to all the England cricketers from West Indian backgrounds. At one time they comprised about half the team, not that long ago in the scheme of things.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
    Lots of people born in the late 70s have been using computers since they were 5 years old. There was an explosion in personal computer ownership around 1981/1982/1983. (In fact 1982 was the official Year of the Computer according to the British government).

    https://www.wired.com/2012/12/dec-26-1982-times-top-man-the-personal-computer/
    Not round my way there wasn't! This isn't a four yorkshiremen claim, but virtually no one I knew had a PC until the late 90s.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    AndyJS said:

    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped? And Joe Denly, not exactly looking to the future, might as well have called up Ian Bell.

    Someone ought to write a book or article on the subject of whatever happened to all the England cricketers from West Indian backgrounds. At one time they comprised about half the team, not that long ago in the scheme of things.
    Where are all the black English cricketers?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/get-inspired/44533717
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 68,202
    edited September 2018
    AndyJS said:

    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped? And Joe Denly, not exactly looking to the future, might as well have called up Ian Bell.

    Someone ought to write a book or article on the subject of whatever happened to all the England cricketers from West Indian backgrounds. At one time they comprised about half the team, not that long ago in the scheme of things.
    Where are all the black English cricketers?

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/get-inspired/44533717
  • TOPPING said:

    Can somebody enlighten me. In the event of a no-deal, no backstop outcome, presumably it's the EU who'll be insisting that there's a border? I mean, couldn't we just say the Good Friday Agreement means that we have to keep an open border with the republic, so if you, EU, want a border, it's up to you to erect it. (Although I can't imagine that hard-line Brexiteers want an open border, might have all those Johnny Foreigners sneaking in and getting the ferry from Belfast).

    Under WTO rules we should police all of our borders, but I suspect we might drag our feet. The Customs Checks at Holyhead on the other hand may be a wonder to behold....
    This is incorrect. The WTO says nothing of the sort. Under WTO rules, another WTO member could take us to arbitration if we were treating imports from, say, the RoI and the US differently under MFN. eg we were not checking RoI widgets at the border but checking US widgets.
    Not if we sign a deal though to treat Ireland differently. So the solution is to sign a deal yet the EU seem to be stubbornly unwilling to give us one.
  • murali_s said:

    I am sorry if I have offended anyone - I will *try* to play nice from now on.

    Anyway, I think a hard Brexit is inevitable. As others have stated time is short for any meaningful deal. Is there any mechanism where A50 can be extended?

    Yes, in theory (no one has ever done A50). It would need the full consent of all 27 EU members.

    So, one could just say 'no' and that would be it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236

    Mr. Observer, that's not quite how I'd see it. The UK/May is seeking a deal, (apparently the EU wants one too). If that's agreed, the build-up steps also occur. If not, they don't.

    Or, as one man said, nothing is agreed until everything's agreed.

    If we have no deal, why would we voluntarily throw tens of billions at the EU? [Some money would still go their way, pensions liabilities, some previously announced commitments etc, but not £39bn].

    How you, me or the UK government sees it is entirely immaterial. It's how the EU sees it that matters. We need them to play ball if the planes are to keep on flying.

    Most Leavers only go to Furriner-land once a year so they won't be too worried until August, and the troops will all be home by Christmas anyway
    We holiday at home. We wouldn't mix with garlic-eating Frogs or sausage-eating Huns.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,030

    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped? And Joe Denly, not exactly looking to the future, might as well have called up Ian Bell.

    Jennings ??

    As George Dobell put it:
    The statistics of Jennings' career are damning. No England opener has ever gone as many consecutive innings (18) without a half-century and, against deliveries from seamers that would have hit the stumps in this series, he (averaged) just 1.33. Those are figures that wouldn't flatter an inanimate object. ...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2018
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
    Lots of people born in the late 70s have been using computers since they were 5 years old. There was an explosion in personal computer ownership around 1981/1982/1983. (In fact 1982 was the official Year of the Computer according to the British government).

    https://www.wired.com/2012/12/dec-26-1982-times-top-man-the-personal-computer/
    Not round my way there wasn't! This isn't a four yorkshiremen claim, but virtually no one I knew had a PC until the late 90s.
    Really? I didn't think my area was particularly special but most people had computers in the mid-80s. Started using a Apple Macintosh desktop computer in 1994.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,821

    Mr. Observer, that's not quite how I'd see it. The UK/May is seeking a deal, (apparently the EU wants one too). If that's agreed, the build-up steps also occur. If not, they don't.

    Or, as one man said, nothing is agreed until everything's agreed.

    If we have no deal, why would we voluntarily throw tens of billions at the EU? [Some money would still go their way, pensions liabilities, some previously announced commitments etc, but not £39bn].

    How you, me or the UK government sees it is entirely immaterial. It's how the EU sees it that matters. We need them to play ball if the planes are to keep on flying.

    Most Leavers only go to Furriner-land once a year so they won't be too worried until August, and the troops will all be home by Christmas anyway
    Hartlepool is very nice, apparently. It may well be that one ex-pat PB Leaver will be making his home there once he returns to the Brexit heartlands.
  • kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
    Lots of people born in the late 70s have been using computers since they were 5 years old. There was an explosion in personal computer ownership around 1981/1982/1983. (In fact 1982 was the official Year of the Computer according to the British government).

    https://www.wired.com/2012/12/dec-26-1982-times-top-man-the-personal-computer/
    Not round my way there wasn't! This isn't a four yorkshiremen claim, but virtually no one I knew had a PC until the late 90s.
    That were nothing. We didn't get an abacus in our village until 2000, and then it got a millennial bug and jumped up and down on our graves shouting hallelujah
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236
    AndyJS said:

    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped? And Joe Denly, not exactly looking to the future, might as well have called up Ian Bell.

    Someone ought to write a book or article on the subject of whatever happened to all the England cricketers from West Indian backgrounds. At one time they comprised about half the team, not that long ago in the scheme of things.
    What happened to West Indian cricket generally? They used to be invincible.
  • Exit date Teressa May Jul - Sep 18 betfair lay at 80:1. Return 1.18% in 10 days is 43% p.a.
    Even if she resigns tomorrow, a day to agree timetable and a week for people to decide whether to stand or not and then there has to be only one applicant. Seems like pretty limited risk for return at rate of 43%p.a. doesn't it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
    Lots of people born in the late 70s have been using computers since they were 5 years old. There was an explosion in personal computer ownership around 1981/1982/1983. (In fact 1982 was the official Year of the Computer according to the British government).

    https://www.wired.com/2012/12/dec-26-1982-times-top-man-the-personal-computer/
    Not round my way there wasn't! This isn't a four yorkshiremen claim, but virtually no one I knew had a PC until the late 90s.
    Really? I didn't think my area was particularly special but most people had computers in the mid-80s.
    Oh yes - I was surprised myself, but I recall very distinctly at secondary school, so it was at least 1997 onwards, when I and some friends went to my dad's house to type out some assignment or other, and we had to because that was the only laptop we had access to. It wasn't long after that we got a PC in the house though, but at primary school I think there was only 1 PC, which had some text adventure game on it I think.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 5,046
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
    Lots of people born in the late 70s have been using computers since they were 5 years old. There was an explosion in personal computer ownership around 1981/1982/1983. (In fact 1982 was the official Year of the Computer according to the British government).

    https://www.wired.com/2012/12/dec-26-1982-times-top-man-the-personal-computer/
    Not round my way there wasn't! This isn't a four yorkshiremen claim, but virtually no one I knew had a PC until the late 90s.
    I was born in 1975. We had a ZX81 in 1981, and a Spectrum in 1983. Trifling baubles by the standards of today, but amazing at the time. Most of my friends had a spectrum or equivalent too. Of course, they were primarily there to play games on, but most people could manage at least a vague understanding of how simple programmes worked.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped? And Joe Denly, not exactly looking to the future, might as well have called up Ian Bell.

    Someone ought to write a book or article on the subject of whatever happened to all the England cricketers from West Indian backgrounds. At one time they comprised about half the team, not that long ago in the scheme of things.
    What happened to West Indian cricket generally? They used to be invincible.
    Something to do with American satellite TV, they say.
  • Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    https://twitter.com/cricketnext/status/1043148482507202560

    What does Jennings have to do to get dropped? And Joe Denly, not exactly looking to the future, might as well have called up Ian Bell.

    Someone ought to write a book or article on the subject of whatever happened to all the England cricketers from West Indian backgrounds. At one time they comprised about half the team, not that long ago in the scheme of things.
    What happened to West Indian cricket generally? They used to be invincible.
    I heard that a lot of youngsters are now playing Baseball instead as the potential money is so much better
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    I doubt he cares. He’s an unelected Eurocrat after all.
    More to the point why do people think reaching out the young involves acting like a plonker online? Yes I know those millennial (I am technically one, but I really think 1986 barely counts) are all about those memes and instragram and all that, and we all enjoy a good laugh online, but young people don't need to be reached out like some other species in patronising fashion.
    Yeah, ‘86 for me too but I also don’t feel like a millennial (I do enjoy a good meme though!)
    Lots of people born in the late 70s have been using computers since they were 5 years old. There was an explosion in personal computer ownership around 1981/1982/1983. (In fact 1982 was the official Year of the Computer according to the British government).

    https://www.wired.com/2012/12/dec-26-1982-times-top-man-the-personal-computer/
    Not round my way there wasn't! This isn't a four yorkshiremen claim, but virtually no one I knew had a PC until the late 90s.
    That were nothing. We didn't get an abacus in our village until 2000, and then it got a millennial bug and jumped up and down on our graves shouting hallelujah
    I truly truly was not trying to start a four yorkshiremen sketch! We did have both a NES, SNES and Mega Drive I hasten to add - times were good.
  • https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1043147771505729537

    Probably the Cabinet minister who was due to recision this weekend :lol:
  • Sean_F said:

    Mr. Observer, that's not quite how I'd see it. The UK/May is seeking a deal, (apparently the EU wants one too). If that's agreed, the build-up steps also occur. If not, they don't.

    Or, as one man said, nothing is agreed until everything's agreed.

    If we have no deal, why would we voluntarily throw tens of billions at the EU? [Some money would still go their way, pensions liabilities, some previously announced commitments etc, but not £39bn].

    How you, me or the UK government sees it is entirely immaterial. It's how the EU sees it that matters. We need them to play ball if the planes are to keep on flying.

    Most Leavers only go to Furriner-land once a year so they won't be too worried until August, and the troops will all be home by Christmas anyway
    We holiday at home. We wouldn't mix with garlic-eating Frogs or sausage-eating Huns.
    Another reason for you to avoid London?
This discussion has been closed.