So it's no deal. It's stupid, but the EU isn't nimble enough to change course. I voted remain but this whole business has shown why the EU is doomed. It can't adapt, it can't steer out of trouble once it has set a course, and it has demonstrated terrible judgment. I can't understand why the officials who failed to give Cameron a deal he could sell to the UK electorate (which really wouldn't have taken much) are still in post. That too shows how dysfunctional the whole juggernaut is. It's all very sad and everyone will lose by it.
It's exactly that lack of ability to be flexible and willing to change course that pushed a lot of us relucatant Leavers over the edge in the first place.
Agreed. I might not make the same choice if offered it again, but that was a big part of it.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
Even if for argument's sake you are right what difference will it make? The consequences will be equally dire. Sometimes this entire Brexit debacle seems more about saving the Tories skin than the national interest.
Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?
It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?
There was a referendum in Ireland which forms the basis of the constitutional settlement there and it has broadly brought peace to what was a troubled part of these islands.
Northern Ireland is going to end up being a massive drain on government resources, particularly in terms of the army and security services. It is a set of problems that were entirely foreseeable and avoidable.
No it won't there is not the will nor the resources.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
Throwing your son’s financial well-being under a bus due to a misplaced sympathy with a mendacious and incompetent politician is never a good look.
My son in law will be fine - but it is upto the government to ensure the massive Airbus factory continues to prosper for the sake of the North Wales economy
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
It is also about isolationism, jingoism and a narrowly defined set of British values that excludes many Britons.
Far too much about Brexit is about poorly focussed anger, the political equivalent of a bad day at the office, and coming home to beat the wife.
Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
So who will blink?
Hopefully both with elegant synchronised elan.
You have to competent or lucky to pull that off. Something has to change.
But assuredly that will be the basis of any deal despite today’s events. But will it be credible in the sense that Cameron’s palpably wasn’t? That by definition we can’t know now. More immediately it’s not clear whether the latest fiasco helps or hinders Mrs May in the run-up to the Tory conference.
Something has to change. There is no sign of that tonight. A talented politician on either side might pull it off. Sadly there are none.
Just putting this thought out there, since the guy's been maligned aplenty. Not saying I actually agree with the proposition. But...
By the end of his tenure, did David "Thicko" Davis have a better grasp of the Brexit negotiations, particularly the parameters that were actually workable?
Again, not saying he was super-smart. Not saying he would have been able to deliver anything (though clearly that would have ultimately depended on decisions taken by his superiors anyway). Merely postulating, did Davis actually have more of a clue than May? Or to put it another way round, is May more clueless in misjudgment than Davis?
Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.
I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
Selmayr spin, IIRC.
Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith.
The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.
You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.
And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
We are not a great country. We are regarded, worldwide, as a criminal country with London as the centre of the enterprise. Our bankers, financiers, hedge funds, even estate agents and builders are recognised as being worse than any mafia. Why do you think the 29th of March, 2019, is so significant? On the 30th, if we were still members of the EU, we would have to divulge ownership of bank accounts and financial transactions through the UK - how embarrassing would that be....
Both of these premises are wrong.
I do business all around the world; indeed London is the centre of the world art and antique trade. We’re a beacon of liberal democracy, of capitalism and good government.
The beneficial ownership bank accounts and companies is already British law.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
It is also about isolationism, jingoism and a narrowly defined set of British values that excludes many Britons.
Far too much about Brexit is about poorly focussed anger, the political equivalent of a bad day at the office, and coming home to beat the wife.
I'm not convinced there was much jingoism involved.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
Throwing your son’s financial well-being under a bus due to a misplaced sympathy with a mendacious and incompetent politician is never a good look.
My son in law will be fine - but it is upto the government to ensure the massive Airbus factory continues to prosper for the sake of the North Wales economy
Simple - stop the Brexit madness now. The Airbus workers will be out of jobs but then if they voted leave...
In other news what a choice bunch of Union Jack boxer short-wearing, land of hope and glory ringtone, keyboard warrior, oooh Frank Spencer, Leaver arseholes there are on PB this evening.
The Sun has an 'interesting' take on the day's events:
Euro mobsters ambush May
WE can’t wait to shake ourselves free of the two-bit mobsters who run the European Union.
EU leaders promised a fair hearing on our future relationship at yesterday’s crunch Salzburg summit. Instead, Mrs May was ambushed with a cack-handed attempt to sign us up to Brussels’ unacceptable terms there and then. The PM refused to budge on the UK’s red lines, and she’s absolutely right to do so. This lot are more Bugsy Malone than Al Capone. Yesterday the leaders of the undemocratic European Union showed their true colours. This isn’t some grand project, designed to bring the peoples of Europe together in one happy union. It’s a protection racket.
As predictable as the tone is, and recognising it is quite possible for one's red lines to be unacceptable to the other side, it is curious how to some the UK is being unreasonable in sticking to its red lines, and the EU reasonable, or vice versa. If neither stuck to them they would not be red lines. It probably isn't insightful to think that the whole negotiation is really about finding out which red lines are actually just pink lines, and unfortunately I think ours are more likely to be so.
Irish Times 'A United Ireland would see living standards in the Republic fall 15%' as the Republic would have to accommodate the €11 billion subvention Northern Ireland receives annually from the UK, which equates to 25 per cent of its national income.
Just putting this thought out there, since the guy's been maligned aplenty. Not saying I actually agree with the proposition. But...
By the end of his tenure, did David "Thicko" Davis have a better grasp of the Brexit negotiations, particularly the parameters that were actually workable?
Again, not saying he was super-smart. Not saying he would have been able to deliver anything (though clearly that would have ultimately depended on decisions taken by his superiors anyway). Merely postulating, did Davis actually have more of a clue than May? Or to put it another way round, is May more clueless in misjudgment than Davis?
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
Even if for argument's sake you are right what difference will it make? The consequences will be equally dire. Sometimes this entire Brexit debacle seems more about saving the Tories skin than the national interest.
Haven't you worked out the politics of the last 7 years? It's all been about saving the Tories and the national interest could go hang.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
I have been married to my dear lady for 54 years and have learnt it is not a good strategy to 'tell' her anything but we will have to have trading relations with Europe but exactly how is open for debate
Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.
I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
Selmayr spin, IIRC.
Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
I think that the key divide here is not about this, but about NI. I have no issue with the EU saying that we cannot be in any way inside their SM. If they want to introduce friction on trade, that is their right, even though it is not necessary and self defeating.
But the EU do not need the NI backstop. It is not critical to their interests - everyone really knows that a Maxfac soft border would work well enough. It is a consequence of Brexit for both sides, because it was the actions of both sides led to Brexit. The point of the backstop is not to protect the EU single market, it is to humiliate the UK and also allow the EU the ability to wind back any commitments in the trade declaration later and force the UK to accept EU regulations (especially the CU) in the future.
It is the EU that is trying to have its cake and eat it. If we cannot be in the SM in any form, then we don’t follow EU regulations in any form. If they want us to have CETA, then we are not subject to their control.
The NI backstop is the definition of bad faith and it was for that reason that I have always opposed it. As May found today, that bad faith is at the core of the EUs posiiton.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
No individual punter is going to be any freer, more self-determined or experience more democracy than when we were in Europe. It's a mirage. Westminster, where virtually all significant decisions are made, will continue to do so with little regard to the population at large.
Irish Times 'A United Ireland would see living standards in the Republic fall 15%' as the Republic would have to accommodate the €11 billion subvention Northern Ireland receives annually from the UK, which equates to 25 per cent of its national income.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
Even if for argument's sake you are right what difference will it make? The consequences will be equally dire. Sometimes this entire Brexit debacle seems more about saving the Tories skin than the national interest.
Haven't you worked out the politics of the last 7 years? It's all been about saving the Tories and the national interest could go hang.
I doubt it. Parties have a better chance of staying in power if they are also looking out for the national interest. They just get confused at times as whether being in power is itself in the national interest, no matter what, since their whole reason for existing is to presume they always are best. There's nothing particularly Tory or Labour about that.
In another interview today Mr Corbyn's aide cut off the reporter asking him about a plot to censure the Labour MP Rosie Duffield for criticising him.
She revealed she had contemplated quitting Parliament after facing a motion blasting her for attending a demonstration in Westminster against anti-Semitism in March.
The motion was eventually withdrawn but she said “you have to ask yourself if positives outweigh negatives, and whether it is worth the effect it is having on my family”.
Asked about it by BBC South East’s Helen Catt the leader’s head of strategic communications said: “Sorry, can we stop this.”
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
I have been married to my dear lady for 54 years and have learnt it is not a good strategy to 'tell' her anything but we will have to have trading relations with Europe but exactly how is open for debate
In another interview today Mr Corbyn's aide cut off the reporter asking him about a plot to censure the Labour MP Rosie Duffield for criticising him.
She revealed she had contemplated quitting Parliament after facing a motion blasting her for attending a demonstration in Westminster against anti-Semitism in March.
The motion was eventually withdrawn but she said “you have to ask yourself if positives outweigh negatives, and whether it is worth the effect it is having on my family”.
Asked about it by BBC South East’s Helen Catt the leader’s head of strategic communications said: “Sorry, can we stop this.”
Don't think many people are going to be focusing on Corbyn's trouble this weekend despite the best efforts of all his external an internal opponents in the run up to conference.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
No individual punter is going to be any freer, more self-determined or experience more democracy than when we were in Europe. It's a mirage. Westminster, where virtually all significant decisions are made, will continue to do so with little regard to the population at large.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
I have been married to my dear lady for 54 years and have learnt it is not a good strategy to 'tell' her anything but we will have to have trading relations with Europe but exactly how is open for debate
Fair point. Maybe just mention in passing that 'having nothing to do with them' will be a trifle difficult.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
No individual punter is going to be any freer, more self-determined or experience more democracy than when we were in Europe. It's a mirage. Westminster, where virtually all significant decisions are made, will continue to do so with little regard to the population at large.
Rubbish.
How do I fire Selmayr?
Or the fools trying to make the import of antiques more difficult....
In other news what a choice bunch of Union Jack boxer short-wearing, land of hope and glory ringtone, keyboard warrior, oooh Frank Spencer, Leaver arseholes there are on PB this evening.
I'm certainly glad others lead by example in at least attempting reasoned, polite discourse. Ah, there's my high horse.
Have a lovely evening everybody. I'm off to see King of Thieves tomorrow, it looks dreadful, and why it took this long for Michael Caine to be in a movie about that event I don't know, it was a shoo-in the second the details were known.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
I have been married to my dear lady for 54 years and have learnt it is not a good strategy to 'tell' her anything but we will have to have trading relations with Europe but exactly how is open for debate
Wise words.
What's the secret to a happy marriage?
"Yes, dear."
"When you are wrong, admit it, when you're right, shut up!"
One more thing - I have business to get on with - we are always being told that the EU officialdom are a nightmare/ideologues/hostile but the EU heads of government would be on our side. Perhaps we might now appreciate that nice Mr Barnier having a quiet chat with a few of the hotheads.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
I have been married to my dear lady for 54 years and have learnt it is not a good strategy to 'tell' her anything but we will have to have trading relations with Europe but exactly how is open for debate
Wise words.
What's the secret to a happy marriage?
"Yes, dear."
"When you are wrong, admit it, when you're right, shut up!"
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
Are you impressed by how the EU has handled this?
Impressed? Wrong word. But I do think they are winning. And although I have considerable respect for you and @Big_G_NorthWales 's stances as the more reasonable Leavers, there is a streak of emotionality that prevents you from achieving your goal. "Failing and blaming" is what people do when they lose. Start winning.
It amazes me that May is stll Prime minister having said we were going to leave the Customs Union and Single Market and then told us Chequers was a great deal.
I don't think our negotiating tactics have made a huge difference although if we had seemed better prepared for no deal we might have actually had some leverage. Everyone who actually knew the EU always thought it unlikely we could get a good deal in 2 years and so it has proved. So many Brexiters seemed to have little understanding of the EU but thought they could second guess them.
Yes, the failure to make preparations for No Deal, or even to see it as a possibility was the Tories central error.
May certainly has a tin ear and is devoid of people skills, but even the suave and emmoliative Cameron could not convince the EU to break up the Single Market.
May's folly was not in her lack of negotiating skill* but in her rigidity that prevented her from exploring other options.
*demonstrated not only in Salzburg, but also in Chequers itself, where she presented her cabinet with a fait accompli, with the alternative of walking home. No way to treat your own colleagues.
I personally much prefer May to Cameron in most respects, but Cameron would've been better in these negotiations I think. He would've been better at buttering the other leaders up, and stroking their considerable egos, which like it or not is one the big ingredients of a successful negotiation.
One of the reports today mentioned that one of the things that irritated the other leaders was that, at last night's dinner, May basically just read out her op-ed from "Die Welt" almost word-for-word. That reminded me of a piece from Rafael Behr from a long time ago, when he correctly predicted her lack of people skills would really damage her:
With European leaders she has been formal to the point of rudeness, sticking to prepared speaking notes and gnomic banalities. Even in bilateral chats, where friendly counterparts have offered support in exchange for insight into May’s thinking, the prime minister has used her “Brexit means Brexit” line, unaware of how insulting it is to fob off the head of an EU power with a vacuous media soundbite.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
I have been married to my dear lady for 54 years and have learnt it is not a good strategy to 'tell' her anything but we will have to have trading relations with Europe but exactly how is open for debate
Wise words.
What's the secret to a happy marriage?
"Yes, dear."
"When you are wrong, admit it, when you're right, shut up!"
Irish Times 'A United Ireland would see living standards in the Republic fall 15%' as the Republic would have to accommodate the €11 billion subvention Northern Ireland receives annually from the UK, which equates to 25 per cent of its national income.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
Economics is freedom, self determination, and democracy. Poverty is powerlessness.
Bold but interesting claim. You're interested, iirc, in tech and Big Data. The government of China is combining some of the cutting edge in technological totalitarianism (moving on from the Great Firewall to facial recognition and loyalty-tracking) with increased incomes that substantially widen its inhabitants' consumption-possibility frontiers. There are some great articles about that, well worth reading.
From a different angle, Savoy was for centuries a notable European power - in fact it was only annexed to France as late as 1860. To what extent is Savoy "free" or "self-determined" today, when it no longer even exists as a polity? Do we get a different answer if I replace "Savoy" with "the Savoyards"? In terms of "democratic", I think it's arguable that had Savoy retained its independence, then Savoyards would have more individual voting power. More importantly, they would live in a country whose governance more closely matched their preferences (since the preferences of Savoyards will tend to be correlated, and not always in lockstep with other regions of what is now France). There's a similar argument to be made re Bavaria in 1870 - it's not even obvious that Bavarians themselves would be poorer today if their state had remained independent or, as some had suggested, joined with Switzerland, within which Bavarians would have had more power and also in several respects had greater affinity than Germany.
Irish Times 'A United Ireland would see living standards in the Republic fall 15%' as the Republic would have to accommodate the €11 billion subvention Northern Ireland receives annually from the UK, which equates to 25 per cent of its national income.
In really great news, I've got confirmation my new iPhone will be delivered in the morning.
#SodBrexitTalk
In order to do the Wales main line rail network, just need Whitland (near Carmarthen) to Pembroke, and in order to do England*, just need Middlesbrough to Whitby.
(* plus some odd short curves in northern England)
Can I just say, whatever AI YouTube uses for video selection, I think the rise of the robots is still some way off.
I watch one video of Ross Noble telling a funny story about sausage rolls and now have to scroll past bloody 100s of Ross Noble videos.
Very interesting programme on AI by Jim Al-Khalili earlier this month "The Joy of AI" seemed to come to the same conclusion. AI could well join Nuclear Fusion Power Generation in being forever 20-30 years away.
Hardly surprising, if there was a UK En Marche you would be at the front of the queue with Osborne and Clegg to sign up
Brexit choice of British people. Check ☒ Pushed by people saying it would be easy. Check ☒ Those people being liars. Check ☒
Not seeing where the problem is.
The EU of course refused to offer any compromise to the UK before the referendum to reflect sovereignty and immigration concerns and still are not budging now
Irish Times 'A United Ireland would see living standards in the Republic fall 15%' as the Republic would have to accommodate the €11 billion subvention Northern Ireland receives annually from the UK, which equates to 25 per cent of its national income.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
Economics is freedom, self determination, and democracy. Poverty is powerlessness.
Bold but interesting claim. You're interested, iirc, in tech and Big Data. The government of China is combining some of the cutting edge in technological totalitarianism (moving on from the Great Firewall to facial recognition and loyalty-tracking) with increased incomes that substantially widen its inhabitants' consumption-possibility frontiers. There are some great articles about that, well worth reading.
From a different angle, Savoy was for centuries a notable European power - in fact it was only annexed to France as late as 1860. To what extent is Savoy "free" or "self-determined" today, when it no longer even exists as a polity? Do we get a different answer if I replace "Savoy" with "the Savoyards"? In terms of "democratic", I think it's arguable that had Savoy retained its independence, then Savoyards would have more individual voting power. More importantly, they would live in a country whose governance more closely matched their preferences (since the preferences of Savoyards will tend to be correlated, and not always in lockstep with other regions of what is now France). There's a similar argument to be made re Bavaria in 1870 - it's not even obvious that Bavarians themselves would be poorer today if their state had remained independent or, as some had suggested, joined with Switzerland, within which Bavarians would have had more power and also in several respects had greater affinity than Germany.
But where do you stop? Why not have an independent London?
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
Irish Times 'A United Ireland would see living standards in the Republic fall 15%' as the Republic would have to accommodate the €11 billion subvention Northern Ireland receives annually from the UK, which equates to 25 per cent of its national income.
Reunification would have its costs, as it did in Germany, but in time the Northern Ireland economy would catch up with the booming ROI one.
The East German economy is still well behind the West German economy and has more in common with Poland's than that of the rest of Germany.
It's also full of people who are voting "wrong". A familiar problem in the happy family that is the EU.
Right wing populists and crypto-fascists are not just to be found in Europe. Look at Russia and America for example, or the Phillipines for that matter.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
Why is a 2nd referendum unaccaptable? And how exactly do you expect any government to beable to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales in the event of a no deal Brexit? Those jobs will just go, tragically.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
How? Nationalisation? Didn’t have you down as a Corbynite.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
In a No Deal Brexit, how do you expect those Airbus jobs to be preserved? particularly if it is a hostile Brexit, where we refuse to pay our bills?
I think you may be right but a lot of support for Boris on MailOnline tonight too as he awaits his Churchill moment after May's Munich Chequers Deal similarly failed to appease the Tiger and leaves her facing a Chamberlain scenario
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
Big G you have finally realised that Brexit is not only some rich man's plaything but is also real life for people who can't afford for it to go wrong.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
How? Nationalisation? Didn’t have you down as a Corbynite.
Reduced taxation and investment - nationalisation never
In other news what a choice bunch of Union Jack boxer short-wearing, land of hope and glory ringtone, keyboard warrior, oooh Frank Spencer, Leaver arseholes there are on PB this evening.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
If today has told us anything, it's that HMG couldn't protect a single job on a whelk-stall.
Irish Times 'A United Ireland would see living standards in the Republic fall 15%' as the Republic would have to accommodate the €11 billion subvention Northern Ireland receives annually from the UK, which equates to 25 per cent of its national income.
Reunification would have its costs, as it did in Germany, but in time the Northern Ireland economy would catch up with the booming ROI one.
The East German economy is still well behind the West German economy and has more in common with Poland's than that of the rest of Germany.
It's also full of people who are voting "wrong". A familiar problem in the happy family that is the EU.
And because they never had decades practising integration of foreign folk, with different skin colour, all East Germany are racist fascists. Or fascist racists. Fascists racists racing fascists.
A good example of the state of politics today - in Ottery St Marys by election the Independent wins with a huge majority despite the last Independent being disqualified for non attendance.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
How? Nationalisation? Didn’t have you down as a Corbynite.
Reduced taxation and investment - nationalisation never
So increased deficit? Or further cuts to social, health, defence, education and other public services (oh, and more county councils going bust)?
Enough about this Europe stuff..... Late night iht....
Are labour down to abolish the additional residence nil rate band do we know?
And did you see the lib dems have voted to set a maximum pension tax free cash ceiling of just 40k?
Compared to 25pct of £1.03m.
That presumably wouldn't apply to existing pension pots. .. But going forward on new monies... Retrospective tax otherwise and those using tfc as mortgage repayment vehicle will be stuffed..
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
In a No Deal Brexit, how do you expect those Airbus jobs to be preserved? particularly if it is a hostile Brexit, where we refuse to pay our bills?
How do you expect Airbus to sell planes without wings?
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
How? Nationalisation? Didn’t have you down as a Corbynite.
Reduced taxation and investment - nationalisation never
Enough about this Europe stuff..... Late night iht....
Are labour down to abolish the additional residence nil rate band do we know?
And did you see the lib dems have voted to set a maximum pension tax free cash ceiling of just 40k?
Compared to 25pct of £1.03m.
That presumably wouldn't apply to existing pension pots. .. But going forward on new monies... Retrospective tax otherwise and those using tfc as mortgage repayment vehicle will be stuffed..
Worry not, it's the LDs so not ever going to happen.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
How? Nationalisation? Didn’t have you down as a Corbynite.
Reduced taxation and investment - nationalisation never
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
In a No Deal Brexit, how do you expect those Airbus jobs to be preserved? particularly if it is a hostile Brexit, where we refuse to pay our bills?
How do you expect Airbus to sell planes without wings?
I suspect in the short term they will be produced in the UK, but new investment will be in mainland Europe. Airbus UK will go the way of the Australian Car Industry.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
Economics is freedom, self determination, and democracy. Poverty is powerlessness.
Bold but interesting claim. You're interested, iirc, in tech and Big Data. The government of China is combining some of the cutting edge in technological totalitarianism (moving on from the Great Firewall to facial recognition and loyalty-tracking) with increased incomes that substantially widen its inhabitants' consumption-possibility frontiers. There are some great articles about that, well worth reading.
From a different angle, Savoy was for centuries a notable European power - in fact it was only annexed to France as late as 1860. To what extent is Savoy "free" or "self-determined" today, when it no longer even exists as a polity? Do we get a different answer if I replace "Savoy" with "the Savoyards"? In terms of "democratic", I think it's arguable that had Savoy retained its independence, then Savoyards would have more individual voting power. More importantly, they would live in a country whose governance more closely matched their preferences (since the preferences of Savoyards will tend to be correlated, and not always in lockstep with other regions of what is now France). There's a similar argument to be made re Bavaria in 1870 - it's not even obvious that Bavarians themselves would be poorer today if their state had remained independent or, as some had suggested, joined with Switzerland, within which Bavarians would have had more power and also in several respects had greater affinity than Germany.
Fair point, and you may be right about Savoy and Bavaria: I am familiar with the demos concept. So my point might have been better phrased around "necessary but not sufficient".
But consider the following: the washing machine, contraception, vaccination, medical statistics, capitalism, mass transportation and (my favorite) the refrigerated lorry and ship. These things are scientific/technological/economic in nature and have made a massive difference to people's lives.. I know they can't be separated from politics - no rule of law=no economy, for example - but economics (broadly defined) underpins freedom.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
In a No Deal Brexit, how do you expect those Airbus jobs to be preserved? particularly if it is a hostile Brexit, where we refuse to pay our bills?
How do you expect Airbus to sell planes without wings?
I suspect in the short term they will be produced in the UK, but new investment will be in mainland Europe. Airbus UK will go the way of the Australian Car Industry.
Given Airbus is a political beast of a company that is effectively the flag carrier of the EU I expect that will happen regardless of what type of Brexit we agree.
In which case agreeing a Brexit with Airbus in mind seems redundant.
The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
Haha indeed. The (right-wing pea-brained) Leaver trash that live on this blog are in utter denial. They are going into melt-down.
Leaver trash - that’s me! What are we in denial about exactly? I would have thought our view of reality had just been confirmed?
I have today apologised to you for some of our disagreements as today has justified your stance. I now support a deal by TM or a hard Brexit as a second referendum is not acceptable
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
In a No Deal Brexit, how do you expect those Airbus jobs to be preserved? particularly if it is a hostile Brexit, where we refuse to pay our bills?
How do you expect Airbus to sell planes without wings?
I suspect in the short term they will be produced in the UK, but new investment will be in mainland Europe. Airbus UK will go the way of the Australian Car Industry.
That's been on the cards ever since BAE Systems sold their stake.
Comments
Far too much about Brexit is about poorly focussed anger, the political equivalent of a bad day at the office, and coming home to beat the wife.
#SodBrexitTalk
By the end of his tenure, did David "Thicko" Davis have a better grasp of the Brexit negotiations, particularly the parameters that were actually workable?
Again, not saying he was super-smart. Not saying he would have been able to deliver anything (though clearly that would have ultimately depended on decisions taken by his superiors anyway). Merely postulating, did Davis actually have more of a clue than May? Or to put it another way round, is May more clueless in misjudgment than Davis?
I do business all around the world; indeed London is the centre of the world art and antique trade. We’re a beacon of liberal democracy, of capitalism and good government.
The beneficial ownership bank accounts and companies is already British law.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/united-ireland-would-see-living-standards-in-republic-fall-by-15-1.3629748
https://twitter.com/duponline/status/1042849209693728768
But the EU do not need the NI backstop. It is not critical to their interests - everyone really knows that a Maxfac soft border would work well enough. It is a consequence of Brexit for both sides, because it was the actions of both sides led to Brexit. The point of the backstop is not to protect the EU single market, it is to humiliate the UK and also allow the EU the ability to wind back any commitments in the trade declaration later and force the UK to accept EU regulations (especially the CU) in the future.
It is the EU that is trying to have its cake and eat it. If we cannot be in the SM in any form, then we don’t follow EU regulations in any form. If they want us to have CETA, then we are not subject to their control.
The NI backstop is the definition of bad faith and it was for that reason that I have always opposed it. As May found today, that bad faith is at the core of the EUs posiiton.
She revealed she had contemplated quitting Parliament after facing a motion blasting her for attending a demonstration in Westminster against anti-Semitism in March.
The motion was eventually withdrawn but she said “you have to ask yourself if positives outweigh negatives, and whether it is worth the effect it is having on my family”.
Asked about it by BBC South East’s Helen Catt the leader’s head of strategic communications said: “Sorry, can we stop this.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7308628/jeremy-corbyn-says-labour-will-vote-down-theresa-mays-chequers-deal-so-they-can-push-for-another-election/
You can't ask the great leader tough questions...
What's the secret to a happy marriage?
"Yes, dear."
How do I fire Selmayr?
Is a big step for me, I avoided the Plus phones in the past.
Pushed by people saying it would be easy. Check ☒
Those people being liars. Check ☒
Not seeing where the problem is.
Have a lovely evening everybody. I'm off to see King of Thieves tomorrow, it looks dreadful, and why it took this long for Michael Caine to be in a movie about that event I don't know, it was a shoo-in the second the details were known.
You having pineapple on that?
Though not advice that works on PB.
I watch one video of Ross Noble telling a funny story about sausage rolls and now have to scroll past bloody 100s of Ross Noble videos.
I hope everyone has a restful night and maybe we must all try to be kinder to each other as the days come and go
Good night folks
One of the reports today mentioned that one of the things that irritated the other leaders was that, at last night's dinner, May basically just read out her op-ed from "Die Welt" almost word-for-word. That reminded me of a piece from Rafael Behr from a long time ago, when he correctly predicted her lack of people skills would really damage her:
With European leaders she has been formal to the point of rudeness, sticking to prepared speaking notes and gnomic banalities. Even in bilateral chats, where friendly counterparts have offered support in exchange for insight into May’s thinking, the prime minister has used her “Brexit means Brexit” line, unaware of how insulting it is to fob off the head of an EU power with a vacuous media soundbite.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/theresa-may-brexit-talks-prime-minister-diplomacy-eu
How long you been using last series Peaks as Avatar? Damn fine series.
My theory for the end, Coop mistook what home was and took her back to the daemon, not The Fireman and Senorita Dido
From a different angle, Savoy was for centuries a notable European power - in fact it was only annexed to France as late as 1860. To what extent is Savoy "free" or "self-determined" today, when it no longer even exists as a polity? Do we get a different answer if I replace "Savoy" with "the Savoyards"? In terms of "democratic", I think it's arguable that had Savoy retained its independence, then Savoyards would have more individual voting power. More importantly, they would live in a country whose governance more closely matched their preferences (since the preferences of Savoyards will tend to be correlated, and not always in lockstep with other regions of what is now France). There's a similar argument to be made re Bavaria in 1870 - it's not even obvious that Bavarians themselves would be poorer today if their state had remained independent or, as some had suggested, joined with Switzerland, within which Bavarians would have had more power and also in several respects had greater affinity than Germany.
(* plus some odd short curves in northern England)
Very interesting programme on AI by Jim Al-Khalili earlier this month "The Joy of AI" seemed to come to the same conclusion. AI could well join Nuclear Fusion Power Generation in being forever 20-30 years away.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bhwhw1
May just doesn't do grandiose ideas effectively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_pNlDhpbew
In the event of a hard Brexit I expect HMG to protect Airbus jobs in North Wales as they are vital to our economy
Union Jack thongs, thank you very much!
Nazi’s
Are labour down to abolish the additional residence nil rate band do we know?
And did you see the lib dems have voted to set a maximum pension tax free cash ceiling of just 40k?
Compared to 25pct of £1.03m.
That presumably wouldn't apply to existing pension pots. .. But going forward on new monies... Retrospective tax otherwise and those using tfc as mortgage repayment vehicle will be stuffed..
But consider the following: the washing machine, contraception, vaccination, medical statistics, capitalism, mass transportation and (my favorite) the refrigerated lorry and ship. These things are scientific/technological/economic in nature and have made a massive difference to people's lives.. I know they can't be separated from politics - no rule of law=no economy, for example - but economics (broadly defined) underpins freedom.
In which case agreeing a Brexit with Airbus in mind seems redundant.