Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
What has gender got to do with it? This is a failure of British diplomacy or a tin ear at no10, probably both.
The pictures show a pack of men humiliating a lone woman and getting pleasure in it. The picture showing on Sky news is a dreadful look for the EU
It is just the framing of the still shot photo. Following that photo, the group walked back to the security gate with May chatting to Macron on the way. She stopped at the door while the others walked through the security gate. It was all on the video clip on the news.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
What are you talking about 'depths'? Since when has politics at national or european level not involved a blame game?
If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
Why would Corbyn feel the need to negotiate with Brussels? He could simply take over in the wake of a No Deal Brexit and carry on with his domestic policies. Why would he want to be tied to any rules imposed by the EU?
Great, if Corbyn wants full hard Brexit and implementing his tax and spend policies too we can probably add 5 points to the Boris lead I mentioned earlier to give a 20 point Tory lead within a year as we head for near bankruptcy and sky high inflation and a recession
Taking pleasure in the prospect of lots of people - pensioners, the young, businesses, the poor etc - suffering just so that you can relish an opinion poll lead is why I currently despise the Tory party.
God knows I loathe Corbyn and co who I think will do great harm to this country if ever put in power. But the Tories don't deserve it either. If only they could both lose.
I feel much the same way about the Brexit negotiations. Both sides are behaving stupidly; both should lose. Sadly, it's the rest of us who will be the losers.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
What are you talking about 'depths'? Since when has politics at national or european level not involved a blame game?
There was me thinking that there was more to it. Naive fool. Half the UK will blame the EU, those left will blame the first half and the govt in particular. Brilliant
Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?
It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?
There was a referendum in Ireland which forms the basis of the constitutional settlement there and it has broadly brought peace to what was a troubled part of these islands.
Northern Ireland is going to end up being a massive drain on government resources, particularly in terms of the army and security services. It is a set of problems that were entirely foreseeable and avoidable.
I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?
Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?
And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?
It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?
WE need one for Scotland for sure
So the Scot Nats logic seems to be "Brexit is an absolute clusterf*ck of epic proportions....Lets repeat that process within the United Kingdom"?!
I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?
Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?
And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
Thatcher signed up for it, greatest appeaser of them all? Don't think so somehow..
Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.
I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
Selmayr spin, IIRC.
Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.
You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.
And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
Fair play is the very essence of the British character and it seems the EU ambushed TM today almost certainly aided and abetted by the peoples vote group who seem to have captured the EU when even they suggested we should have a second referendum
I would be very surprised if a lot of voters are not very annoyed with the EU tonight
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
Though I think Mr Stodge was being atypically simplistic and harsh on May earlier I think he was right that the public, or a significant portion of it, would always be inclined to blame the EU for no deal, and that the government will do all it can to maximise that feeling. It will need to, if it is to get through the next few months.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
I agree with what you are saying. Except there’s lots of remainers and leavers who don’t like May. Tonight there will be Tories viewing the same thing as you yet wetting themselves in the same way as Alistair Campbell.
And, more ominously, the EU have been preparing for the no deal++ blame game a lot longer than May, even tonight I don’t think the penny had dropped for everyone in Government, EU not negotiating properly until after at least EUref2 or UK GE as well.
No, what you need to do is get a grip, then take some responsibility for 40 years of an Establishment running away from democracy - because you feared it would have led to this point. Rejection. All the while we have been getting further enmeshed in a European superstate which we as a nation were never going to buy.
You have not carried the people, and have hid the true intentions via a programme of deceit, subterfuge and basic lies.
Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?
It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?
WE need one for Scotland for sure
So the Scot Nats logic seems to be "Brexit is an absolute clusterf*ck of epic proportions....Lets repeat that process within the United Kingdom"?!
Nah, that separation would be sure to be simple and not at all bitter.
Sarcasm aside, as horrendous as it would be, if that is what they choose I hope they are prepared for it and willing to accept that as the price rather than being surprised.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
Fair play is the very essence of the British character and it seems the EU ambushed TM today almost certainly aided and abetted by the peoples vote group who seem to have captured the EU when even they suggested we should have a second referendum
I would be very surprised if a lot of voters are not very annoyed with the EU tonight
All they need now is for Obama to fly over and tell us to get to the back of the queue.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
What are you talking about 'depths'? Since when has politics at national or european level not involved a blame game?
There was me thinking that there was more to it. Naive fool. Half the UK will blame the EU, those left will blame the first half and the govt in particular. Brilliant
I didn't say it was brilliant, I just don't see how the blame game is a new innovation related to Brexit, however sad that is.
Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?
It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?
There was a referendum in Ireland which forms the basis of the constitutional settlement there and it has broadly brought peace to what was a troubled part of these islands.
But that settlement is based on both the UK and Ireland being members of the single market and customs union. This is about to be smashed to smithereens.
I think there would be a strong majority in NI for staying in both of these arrangements, while also remaining part of the United Kingdom. In effect the EU backstop really does allow Ulster to 'have it's cake and eat it', just not the rest of the UK. If this passes by a referendum, the decision carries democratic weight.
Yes but the DUP would veto such a referendum in a hot second.
Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.
I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
Selmayr spin, IIRC.
Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.
You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.
And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
Quite. They are thinking tactically over 0-3 years not strategically about 10-20.
Just a thought, as a pebble in the pond, say we pulled out of NATO on the grounds so many of our “allies”, actually aren’t. Might concentrate some minds in the Baltics.
I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?
Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?
And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
It amazes me that May is stll Prime minister having said we were going to leave the Customs Union and Single Market and then told us Chequers was a great deal.
I don't think our negotiating tactics have made a huge difference although if we had seemed better prepared for no deal we might have actually had some leverage. Everyone who actually knew the EU always thought it unlikely we could get a good deal in 2 years and so it has proved. So many Brexiters seemed to have little understanding of the EU but thought they could second guess them.
I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?
Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?
And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
Err, No!
The Appeasement policy of the Tory government in the 1930's was an attempt to placate what were legitimate objections to the Versailies Treaty of 1919. To hand over the Rhineland and Sudetenland, but most certainly not the UK. It was similtaneously accompanied by rearmament.
Not sure that it is a helpful analogy for either side, but your summary is very poor history.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
What are you talking about 'depths'? Since when has politics at national or european level not involved a blame game?
There was me thinking that there was more to it. Naive fool. Half the UK will blame the EU, those left will blame the first half and the govt in particular. Brilliant
I didn't say it was brilliant, I just don't see how the blame game is a new innovation related to Brexit, however sad that is.
What’s new is that all we have left, to play to pin the blame. Raise the Union Jack. Land of hope and glory.
Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?
Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?
And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
TSE = Lord Halifax?
Sunil the half naked fakir or are you more Subhas Chandra Bose?
Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
No, what you need to do is get a grip, then take some responsibility for 40 years of an Establishment running away from democracy - because you feared it would have led to this point. Rejection. All the while we have been getting further enmeshed in a European superstate which we as a nation were never going to buy.
You have not carried the people, and have hid the true intentions via a programme of deceit, subterfuge and basic lies.
I'd love to blame the EU for this, but honestly the Chequers plan does not make any sense. We are asking for something that we know (or we bloody well should have known) is very, very likely to be rejected.
It's mystifying that May and co. have pursued this approach right to the wire.
That is going to set some people off...if you can't ask to call off the dogs or talk about being whiter than whiter...calling the EU leaders dirty rats...I can see my twitter feed stuffed full off all the usual "the s#n" stuff.
Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
That's what I have thought all along though tonight I'm less certain on that. Certainly the grounds are there for a "f##k them all we're off regardless" diamond-hard Brexit after tonight.
If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
Why would Corbyn feel the need to negotiate with Brussels? He could simply take over in the wake of a No Deal Brexit and carry on with his domestic policies. Why would he want to be tied to any rules imposed by the EU?
Great, if Corbyn wants full hard Brexit and implementing his tax and spend policies too we can probably add 5 points to the Boris lead I mentioned earlier to give a 20 point Tory lead within a year as we head for near bankruptcy and sky high inflation and a recession
Taking pleasure in the prospect of lots of people - pensioners, the young, businesses, the poor etc - suffering just so that you can relish an opinion poll lead is why I currently despise the Tory party.
God knows I loathe Corbyn and co who I think will do great harm to this country if ever put in power. But the Tories don't deserve it either. If only they could both lose.
I feel much the same way about the Brexit negotiations. Both sides are behaving stupidly; both should lose. Sadly, it's the rest of us who will be the losers.
I do not particularly want hard Brexit or Corbyn as PM but if we are to get both we Tories at least can enjoy Corbyn and McDonnell trying to cope with it all and failing miserably
Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.
I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
Selmayr spin, IIRC.
Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.
You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.
And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
We are not a great country. We are regarded, worldwide, as a criminal country with London as the centre of the enterprise. Our bankers, financiers, hedge funds, even estate agents and builders are recognised as being worse than any mafia. Why do you think the 29th of March, 2019, is so significant? On the 30th, if we were still members of the EU, we would have to divulge ownership of bank accounts and financial transactions through the UK - how embarrassing would that be....
I would have thought Telegraph could have made Macron look worse than that. The way they edited and photoshopped it it’s almost like a statesman making a firmly made hometruth.
Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
Predictable stuff, but really what is the plan now? Does May try to cave in further? She knows she cannot get that through. Does she bluff and go back in 4 weeks with the same proposal? I don't think the EU are bluffing on this. Does she chuck Chequers and swiftly go with a harder proposal? How can she do that when she has rubbished anything but her own plan?
Most likely she tries to adjust her plan in a way that she can say is not really adjusting it, and hope the EU buy that and it still passes the Commons, no mean feat. But how do the EU sell that given today?
My gut says a referendum is on its way somehow, despite all the protestations and the fiendishly awkward path that requires.
I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?
Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?
And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
Thatcher signed up for it, greatest appeaser of them all? Don't think so somehow..
Thatcher signed up for the Common Market and the Single Market as it was, not free movement from Eastern Europe added on too (exacerbated by Blair's failure to introduce transition controls) and the Euro and Lisbon and Nice and the moves towards ever closer Union
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
Throwing your son’s financial well-being under a bus due to a misplaced sympathy with a mendacious and incompetent politician is never a good look.
Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
That's what I have thought all along though tonight I'm less certain on that. Certainly the grounds are there for a "f##k them all we're off regardless" diamond-hard Brexit after tonight.
Yes I agree. We’ll probably still “get there”, but this game of chicken is high risk for a “ back of the queue” gaffe, and an Agincourt two fingered response, which either or both sides may stumble into because, let’s face it, they just don’t “get” each other.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
I'd love to blame the EU for this, but honestly the Chequers plan does not make any sense. We are asking for something that we know (or we bloody well should have known) is very, very likely to be rejected.
It's mystifying that May and co. have pursued this approach right to the wire.
I keep saying it but David Davis told Theresa it was a bad idea.
That said, the EU could've pulled the plug on Chequers rather more kindly than the abject humiliation the dolled out to Theresa May today...
Not that I really care about Theresa being humiliated (hey this is the woman who was threatening to make her Cabinet walk down the Chequers drives and get taxi's home if they resigned on 6th July) but Theresa is basically representing the British people at these summits so when they humiliate her they humiliate the people and the country she is representing.
This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.
You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.
And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
We are not a great country. We are regarded, worldwide, as a criminal country with London as the centre of the enterprise. Our bankers, financiers, hedge funds, even estate agents and builders are recognised as being worse than any mafia. Why do you think the 29th of March, 2019, is so significant? On the 30th, if we were still members of the EU, we would have to divulge ownership of bank accounts and financial transactions through the UK - how embarrassing would that be....
Were you attempting to reply to someone else, as I don't see the connection to what I said? I didn't say we were great (I happen to think we have our good points, but that was irrelevant). I said we are one of the biggest countries in Europe and we are on their doorstep. That is absolutely true even if we are, indeed, regarded worldwide as a criminal country. In fact if we are regarded so that makes my point even more true - they absolutely should give a monkey's about the large soon to be ex member on their doorstep if that ex member is a criminal country.
What idiots in the EU don't care about how they will interact with a huge criminal country next door?
It amazes me that May is stll Prime minister having said we were going to leave the Customs Union and Single Market and then told us Chequers was a great deal.
I don't think our negotiating tactics have made a huge difference although if we had seemed better prepared for no deal we might have actually had some leverage. Everyone who actually knew the EU always thought it unlikely we could get a good deal in 2 years and so it has proved. So many Brexiters seemed to have little understanding of the EU but thought they could second guess them.
Yes, the failure to make preparations for No Deal, or even to see it as a possibility was the Tories central error.
May certainly has a tin ear and is devoid of people skills, but even the suave and emmoliative Cameron could not convince the EU to break up the Single Market.
May's folly was not in her lack of negotiating skill* but in her rigidity that prevented her from exploring other options.
*demonstrated not only in Salzburg, but also in Chequers itself, where she presented her cabinet with a fait accompli, with the alternative of walking home. No way to treat your own colleagues.
Predictable stuff, but really what is the plan now? Does May try to cave in further? She knows she cannot get that through. Does she bluff and go back in 4 weeks with the same proposal? I don't think the EU are bluffing on this. Does she chuck Chequers and swiftly go with a harder proposal? How can she do that when she has rubbished anything but her own plan?
Most likely she tries to adjust her plan in a way that she can say is not really adjusting it, and hope the EU buy that and it still passes the Commons, no mean feat. But how do the EU sell that given today?
My gut says a referendum is on its way somehow, despite all the protestations and the fiendishly awkward path that requires.
If we don't want to remain, or hard Brexit, then EFTA makes more sense than anything else. That should have been what Cameron pursued after the worthless renegotiations.
Predictable stuff, but really what is the plan now? Does May try to cave in further? She knows she cannot get that through. Does she bluff and go back in 4 weeks with the same proposal? I don't think the EU are bluffing on this. Does she chuck Chequers and swiftly go with a harder proposal? How can she do that when she has rubbished anything but her own plan?
Most likely she tries to adjust her plan in a way that she can say is not really adjusting it, and hope the EU buy that and it still passes the Commons, no mean feat. But how do the EU sell that given today?
My gut says a referendum is on its way somehow, despite all the protestations and the fiendishly awkward path that requires.
She could likely still get a stay in the single market and customs union until December 2020 transition deal as originally planned through Parliament which would buy her time to work on amending Chequers for a FTA
It's obvious the EU is not negotiating in good faith because it is not complying with Article 50. Article 50 requires the withdrawal negotiations to be based on "the framework for its future relationship with the Union." Also, it's been pointed out before that the EU style (which is not in itself in bad faith) is not to negotiate at all but to present a carefully calculated offer which is not-negotiable. So there's been no good faith on the EU side AND no negotiation. The UK assumed good faith and also capitulated in the first stage of the talks (by accepting the EU offer on sequencing, NI etc) in order to make room for proper negotiation to follow. It hasn't followed.
So it's no deal. It's stupid, but the EU isn't nimble enough to change course. I voted remain but this whole business has shown why the EU is doomed. It can't adapt, it can't steer out of trouble once it has set a course, and it has demonstrated terrible judgment. I can't understand why the officials who failed to give Cameron a deal he could sell to the UK electorate (which really wouldn't have taken much) are still in post. That too shows how dysfunctional the whole juggernaut is. It's all very sad and everyone will lose by it.
Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
So who will blink?
Hopefully both with elegant synchronised elan.
You have to competent or lucky to pull that off. Something has to change.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
Geography dictators that Japan are neighbours to China. So what?
Hunt's gaffe aside does that make the Japanese Chinese?
Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.
I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
Selmayr spin, IIRC.
Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
EU rules and laws like those on vehicle emissions which were conveniently ignored ?
' When American authorities revealed that Volkswagen used software to trick pollution tests, it spurred widespread outrage. Documents obtained by SPIEGEL show that European officials knew about the deception for years -- but didn't act on it. '
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
I keep saying it but David Davis told Theresa it was a bad idea.
That said, the EU could've pulled the plug on Chequers rather more kindly than the abject humiliation the dolled out to Theresa May today...
Not that I really care about Theresa being humiliated (hey this is the woman who was threatening to make her Cabinet walk down the Chequers drives and get taxi home if they resigned on 6th July) but Theresa is basically representing the British people at these summits so when they humiliate her they humiliate the people and the country she is representing.
And that's just not the done thing IMO.
I agree with the optics, but the rejection itself was foreseeable. May's judgement is terrible. This is a self-inflicted blow second only to the general election. May will have to go quite soon I think, she's really not up to the job of cooking up a workable Plan B.
Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.
I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
Selmayr spin, IIRC.
Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.
You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.
And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
It’s remarkable that anyone British wants to stay in this organisation.
Traitor. No Englishman should agree with the French head of state.
Nothing will unite Britons behind the PM faster than being bullied by the French.
Yes, but the quote that is on the front page of the Telegraph is undeniably true. If you think that is bullying, then you should perhaps get out in the real world more.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
Sorry, time zone meant that I only just saw this as well as last night’s outcome.
I agree with you that the attitude displayed by the EU is deeply disrespectful to TM. She clearly didn’t make her Chequers plan without a lot of consultation behind the scenes so she has a right to be very disappointed with the way they treated her. I don’t like Chequers but I do recognise that if she wanted to meet the EU demands in NI it was one of the few ways that this could be done that would be politically possible. If there is a crisis it is incumbent on both sides to suggest a resolution. The EU have consistently demanded that May come up with solutions without offering anything at their end and then mocked every suggestion she has made. Despite my dislike of May’s approach, I am not at all happy to see her being humiliated and at the end of the day she is the British PM and will get a lot of support for her dignity.
Brexit is one of the most contentious issues in UK political history and although I see the ability to choose and discuss this as a great thing for political engagement I think we all get carried away at times and I am certainly just as guilty of this as anyone. However, I respect your deeply held views and in fact I think that politics should be about conviction, argument as well as wanting what is best for your country and family. All my family are in the UK so we so share the same objective even if we have different views on how to achieve it.
Of course, if May responds by making more concessions then it will be back to a state of war again
So it's no deal. It's stupid, but the EU isn't nimble enough to change course. I voted remain but this whole business has shown why the EU is doomed. It can't adapt, it can't steer out of trouble once it has set a course, and it has demonstrated terrible judgment. I can't understand why the officials who failed to give Cameron a deal he could sell to the UK electorate (which really wouldn't have taken much) are still in post. That too shows how dysfunctional the whole juggernaut is. It's all very sad and everyone will lose by it.
It's exactly that lack of ability to be flexible and willing to change course that pushed a lot of us relucatant Leavers over the edge in the first place.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
BigG is inclined to put the interests of the Conservative Party above all else. If he's now quite happy at the prospect of Airbus moving out of N Wales because Mrs May has been outmanoeuvred yet again then so be it but I seriously doubt the country will be following his lead.
Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
So who will blink?
Hopefully both with elegant synchronised elan.
You have to competent or lucky to pull that off. Something has to change.
But assuredly that will be the basis of any deal despite today’s events. But will it be credible in the sense that Cameron’s palpably wasn’t? That by definition we can’t know now. More immediately it’s not clear whether the latest fiasco helps or hinders Mrs May in the run-up to the Tory conference.
I keep saying it but David Davis told Theresa it was a bad idea.
That said, the EU could've pulled the plug on Chequers rather more kindly than the abject humiliation the dolled out to Theresa May today...
Not that I really care about Theresa being humiliated (hey this is the woman who was threatening to make her Cabinet walk down the Chequers drives and get taxi home if they resigned on 6th July) but Theresa is basically representing the British people at these summits so when they humiliate her they humiliate the people and the country she is representing.
And that's just not the done thing IMO.
May will have to go quite soon I think, she's really not up to the job of cooking up a workable Plan B.
Indeed. Today is in fact good in a way, as it should mean we have been spared the pretense that all was pretty much hunky dorey until the dotted line was signed in November, and then in the days and weeks after it is clear it is all an unacceptable fudge. It means other options have to be tried, significant departures from what is currently being offered.
That could be significant in terms of concessions or significant in terms of no deal or hard brexit preparation. Either way May is not in a position to do either. Unless she somehow shunts the choice of which to try to a referendum, which is still implausible even though my gut thinks it could happen, she can't change direction given rubbishing the other scenarios.
Great line on Palin on N Korea on C5 asking what some schoolchildren want to be when they grow up one said 'I want to be a teacher, loyal to the great Marshall Kim.'
The Sun has an 'interesting' take on the day's events:
Euro mobsters ambush May
WE can’t wait to shake ourselves free of the two-bit mobsters who run the European Union.
EU leaders promised a fair hearing on our future relationship at yesterday’s crunch Salzburg summit. Instead, Mrs May was ambushed with a cack-handed attempt to sign us up to Brussels’ unacceptable terms there and then. The PM refused to budge on the UK’s red lines, and she’s absolutely right to do so. This lot are more Bugsy Malone than Al Capone. Yesterday the leaders of the undemocratic European Union showed their true colours. This isn’t some grand project, designed to bring the peoples of Europe together in one happy union. It’s a protection racket.
It amazes me that May is stll Prime minister having said we were going to leave the Customs Union and Single Market and then told us Chequers was a great deal.
I don't think our negotiating tactics have made a huge difference although if we had seemed better prepared for no deal we might have actually had some leverage. Everyone who actually knew the EU always thought it unlikely we could get a good deal in 2 years and so it has proved. So many Brexiters seemed to have little understanding of the EU but thought they could second guess them.
Yes, the failure to make preparations for No Deal, or even to see it as a possibility was the Tories central error.
May certainly has a tin ear and is devoid of people skills, but even the suave and emmoliative Cameron could not convince the EU to break up the Single Market.
May's folly was not in her lack of negotiating skill* but in her rigidity that prevented her from exploring other options.
*demonstrated not only in Salzburg, but also in Chequers itself, where she presented her cabinet with a fait accompli, with the alternative of walking home. No way to treat your own colleagues.
Agreed. She made a fundamental error at the start in setting such strict criteria for Brexit. Had she simply gone for a Norway option she could have satisfied the mandate of the EU-ref without all this angst. But no, for some reason she felt she had to comitti to a cake-and-eat-it Brexit that the EU would have been crazy to sign-up to.
Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.
They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.
To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum
As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
BigG is inclined to put the interests of the Conservative Party above all else. If he's now quite happy at the prospect of Airbus moving out of N Wales because Mrs May has been outmanoeuvred yet again then so be it but I seriously doubt the country will be following his lead.
BigG has criticised the tory party on numerous occasions. He's loyal, but not putting it above all else.
Though I think in a few days after the predictable manic reaction we all have to such events plenty of people will once gain contemplate previously unthinkable alternatives rather than the bleakness of no deal.
Comments
I agree with the President of France.
https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320
I need to lie down.
God knows I loathe Corbyn and co who I think will do great harm to this country if ever put in power. But the Tories don't deserve it either. If only they could both lose.
I feel much the same way about the Brexit negotiations. Both sides are behaving stupidly; both should lose. Sadly, it's the rest of us who will be the losers.
If we withdraw Donald will be out quick as a flash...
Allongez-vous.
You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.
And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
I would be very surprised if a lot of voters are not very annoyed with the EU tonight
If we get away to easy others will follow.
As several have said - fuck em
And, more ominously, the EU have been preparing for the no deal++ blame game a lot longer than May, even tonight I don’t think the penny had dropped for everyone in Government, EU not negotiating properly until after at least EUref2 or UK GE as well.
You have not carried the people, and have hid the true intentions via a programme of deceit, subterfuge and basic lies.
Man up, take the blame.
Sarcasm aside, as horrendous as it would be, if that is what they choose I hope they are prepared for it and willing to accept that as the price rather than being surprised.
Just a thought, as a pebble in the pond, say we pulled out of NATO on the grounds so many of our “allies”, actually aren’t. Might concentrate some minds in the Baltics.
'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'
And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
I don't think our negotiating tactics have made a huge difference although if we had seemed better prepared for no deal we might have actually had some leverage. Everyone who actually knew the EU always thought it unlikely we could get a good deal in 2 years and so it has proved. So many Brexiters seemed to have little understanding of the EU but thought they could second guess them.
The Appeasement policy of the Tory government in the 1930's was an attempt to placate what were legitimate objections to the Versailies Treaty of 1919. To hand over the Rhineland and Sudetenland, but most certainly not the UK. It was similtaneously accompanied by rearmament.
Not sure that it is a helpful analogy for either side, but your summary is very poor history.
https://twitter.com/TheSun/status/1042886709946601472
Remember when TSE pretended to be a eurosceptic?
It's mystifying that May and co. have pursued this approach right to the wire.
Most likely she tries to adjust her plan in a way that she can say is not really adjusting it, and hope the EU buy that and it still passes the Commons, no mean feat. But how do the EU sell that given today?
My gut says a referendum is on its way somehow, despite all the protestations and the fiendishly awkward path that requires.
Sure it’ll be very disruptive and no fun for a good few months but the UK is big, bad and ugly enough to do ok by itself.
And we thought no deal Brexit was bad.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/20/eu-killed-chequers-twisted-knife-theresa-may/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_iosshare_ArSsqZR8HkbF
That said, the EU could've pulled the plug on Chequers rather more kindly than the abject humiliation the dolled out to Theresa May today...
Not that I really care about Theresa being humiliated (hey this is the woman who was threatening to make her Cabinet walk down the Chequers drives and get taxi's home if they resigned on 6th July) but Theresa is basically representing the British people at these summits so when they humiliate her they humiliate the people and the country she is representing.
And that's just not the done thing IMO.
What idiots in the EU don't care about how they will interact with a huge criminal country next door?
May certainly has a tin ear and is devoid of people skills, but even the suave and emmoliative Cameron could not convince the EU to break up the Single Market.
May's folly was not in her lack of negotiating skill* but in her rigidity that prevented her from exploring other options.
*demonstrated not only in Salzburg, but also in Chequers itself, where she presented her cabinet with a fait accompli, with the alternative of walking home. No way to treat your own colleagues.
Nothing will unite Britons behind the PM faster than being bullied by the French.
So it's no deal. It's stupid, but the EU isn't nimble enough to change course. I voted remain but this whole business has shown why the EU is doomed. It can't adapt, it can't steer out of trouble once it has set a course, and it has demonstrated terrible judgment. I can't understand why the officials who failed to give Cameron a deal he could sell to the UK electorate (which really wouldn't have taken much) are still in post. That too shows how dysfunctional the whole juggernaut is. It's all very sad and everyone will lose by it.
Hunt's gaffe aside does that make the Japanese Chinese?
It seems they are either staffed or advised (or both) by people exactly like him.
' When American authorities revealed that Volkswagen used software to trick pollution tests, it spurred widespread outrage. Documents obtained by SPIEGEL show that European officials knew about the deception for years -- but didn't act on it. '
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/volkswagen-how-officials-ignored-years-of-emissions-evidence-a-1108325.html
Conveniently ignored that is for German carmakers but not for the thousands of people who have died as a result.
I agree with you that the attitude displayed by the EU is deeply disrespectful to TM. She clearly didn’t make her Chequers plan without a lot of consultation behind the scenes so she has a right to be very disappointed with the way they treated her. I don’t like Chequers but I do recognise that if she wanted to meet the EU demands in NI it was one of the few ways that this could be done that would be politically possible. If there is a crisis it is incumbent on both sides to suggest a resolution. The EU have consistently demanded that May come up with solutions without offering anything at their end and then mocked every suggestion she has made. Despite my dislike of May’s approach, I am not at all happy to see her being humiliated and at the end of the day she is the British PM and will get a lot of support for her dignity.
Brexit is one of the most contentious issues in UK political history and although I see the ability to choose and discuss this as a great thing for political engagement I think we all get carried away at times and I am certainly just as guilty of this as anyone. However, I respect your deeply held views and in fact I think that politics should be about conviction, argument as well as wanting what is best for your country and family. All my family are in the UK so we so share the same objective even if we have different views on how to achieve it.
Of course, if May responds by making more concessions then it will be back to a state of war again
And put the EUs useful idiots and quislings, Corbyn, Greening, Lineker etc on as real rats tommorow.
Nobody likes rats or gangsters.
Well maybe some Gangsters are much loved. Perhaps even in Urban it’s a term of endearment. But there’s nothing likeable about a rat!
Except maybe ratty from Wind In The Willows. Or was he really rat, or more an honorary vowle?
Seriously, not going to happen though.
That could be significant in terms of concessions or significant in terms of no deal or hard brexit preparation. Either way May is not in a position to do either. Unless she somehow shunts the choice of which to try to a referendum, which is still implausible even though my gut thinks it could happen, she can't change direction given rubbishing the other scenarios. Surely not, all the glossy magazines I pass by at the newsagents would have been shouting 'PREG MEG?!' at me if that were so.
I thought I saw you fantasizing about us joining the euro in this morning's thread?
Euro mobsters ambush May
WE can’t wait to shake ourselves free of the two-bit mobsters who run the European Union.
EU leaders promised a fair hearing on our future relationship at yesterday’s crunch Salzburg summit. Instead, Mrs May was ambushed with a cack-handed attempt to sign us up to Brussels’ unacceptable terms there and then. The PM refused to budge on the UK’s red lines, and she’s absolutely right to do so. This lot are more Bugsy Malone than Al Capone. Yesterday the leaders of the undemocratic European Union showed their true colours. This isn’t some grand project, designed to bring the peoples of Europe together in one happy union. It’s a protection racket.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7309816/the-sun-says-eu-brexit-mobsters/
Though I think in a few days after the predictable manic reaction we all have to such events plenty of people will once gain contemplate previously unthinkable alternatives rather than the bleakness of no deal.
Heck my ancestors came from the Indian subcontinent and it was ingrained into me.
Actually my derision towards the French stems from the time I visited Normandy as part of the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
Not realising I could speak French, I could hear just how bitter the French were that they were liberated by Les Rosbifs and the Anglos.