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  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959
    edited August 2018
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1027450222920847360
    Sterling is pretty much where it was against the Euro in 2013 and higher than it was in 2008. But a declining currency is inevitable when we run an unsustainable trade deficit and our deficit with the rest of the EU is £80bn a year.

    Of course, Liam Fox is still an arse.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,376
    Mr P,

    You're a Benidorm man?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    edited August 2018

    No, they voted against the SNP. They did not vote for the English Nationalist party, which the Conservative party is now well down the path to becoming. Indeed, you expect an English nationalist to become the party’s next leader.

    May in 2017 was presenting herself as Boudica of hard Brexit until she shifted last month to cave in Theresa so wrong on that too.

    Indeed the yougov polling of Boris v Corbyn had the SNP vote unchanged, any movement there was in Scotland was some 2017 Tories back to Scottish Labour.

    Plus of course Wales voted Leave
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,969
    HYUFD said:

    Given over a third of even SNP voters voted Leave there is no guarantee even an independent Scotland would rejoin the EU at most maybe the single market.


    After all what is the logic of swapping London for Brussels? If devolution is not enough for you and you want full independence logically you go for the whole hog
    Perhaps France (and by extension Belgium) has been seen differently through history north of the border?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,392
    Morning all :)

    Provocative piece, Antifrank, as no doubt intended and the usual suspects have decided to shoot from the hip in response. Ho hum.

    From a non-Conservative perspective, the actions of the Government since June 2016 have been predicated less on securing a good deal for the citizens of the United Kingdom than trying to hold the Conservative Party together.

    It may surprise some on here but the Conservative Party doesn't matter - the good governance of this country does. There are times when a Party has to do something that is incredibly unpopular (at least initially) but which said Party believes to be right.

    Politics isn't just about quoting polls and desperately trying to be always on the side of public opinion - oh look, 52% believe in something so we'll believe in it. Politics is about the other 48% and governing for them too. Of course, among the 48% will be those who cannot accept they lost but I would contend the vast majority accept the result but naturally want a say in the future (you don't deny democracy forever to people who were on the wrong side of the argument once).

    I appreciate the Conservatives are yoked to the Union - it's one of the primary pillars of their identity and their raison d'etre. I'm not - globalisation has challenged identities and in many ways forced us back into narrower and more comfortable confines. Ultimately, people like people like themselves and the disparity of nations challenges that.

    Uncertainty challenges us all - in my lifetime the world has changed out of all recognition and it will continue so to do whether we are in the EU or not. Recognising and confronting these myriad challenges will be what marks out the successful mid-21st century political entity. Success in the past does not of course guarantee success in the future.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    CD13 said:

    This attitude means that the leaver views often harden.

    You stark staring bonkers nasty stupid racist swivel-eyed doolally prole!

    Now will you change your mind and do as you're told? Please?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,969

    You dissing Skegness?
    back to being bracing, as of this week
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,395
    F1: my mid-season review, including a video (radio), and four graphs (one of which is depressing):
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/08/mid-season-review.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    IanB2 said:

    Perhaps France (and by extension Belgium) has been seen differently through history north of the border?
    Scotland did not take half its laws from Paris even when independent
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,969
    HYUFD said:

    Not while they remain majorities in the two largest counties in Northern Ireland
    Why this obsession with counties? As and when NI gets to decide, it'll be one overall vote for the province, just as Brexit has been.
  • HYUFD said:

    The UK is closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than the USA.

    Up to 24% would vote for a far right anti immigration party with Yougov

    I do not think that is what YouGov measured but either way how does "up to 24%" in a hypothetical poll before "25 to 35%"?
  • HYUFD said:

    May in 2017 was presenting herself as Boudica of hard Brexit until she shifted last month to cave in Theresa so wrong on that too.

    Indeed the yougov polling of Boris v Corbyn had the SNP vote unchanged, any movement there was in Scotland was some 2017 Tories back to Scottish Labour.

    Plus of course Wales voted Leave

    The SNP would love a referendum on Boris Johnson!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592

    No I’m not wrong. Unfortunately. You described perfectly where we are, but you refuse to accept it. The promised control we can take back that makes a difference is not in the EU, globalisation has eaten it.
    No you are wrong. We do not have global open border immigration or anything approaching it
  • Scott_P said:

    "Sorry, kids, we can't go to Spain this year. You will love Skegness though..."
    Its called living within your means.

    During the last decade the UK has a cumulative current account deficit of over £700bn

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/hbop/pnbp

    Do you think that can be continued forever ?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    You dissing Skegness?

    Chillax!!!

    Which part of "You will love Skegness" was a diss?

    *Innocent face*
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959
    IanB2 said:

    back to being bracing, as of this week
    Thank goodness. I am not built for the weather we have had this summer. Sitting by a pool or even on the beach at Skegness it's fine. Working, getting around cities, living normal life, it's just too much.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,969
    HYUFD said:

    No you are wrong. We do not have global open border immigration or anything approaching it
    One way or another we will still need all the EU workers, and just have to hope that they are still willing to come despite an unwelcoming climate and a depreciating currency.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,615
    Pulpstar said:

    There's no difference to this question in my opinion.
    I can see a small difference, in that there are forms of Brexit which increase the risk of violence, and whilst we voted for Brexit, we did not vote for any particular type of Brexit.
    A parallel might be that Corbyn should not go forward with certain manifesto proposals if they increase the risk of violence. But I accept that the two scenarios are very similar and I can understand why for many Leavers they would answer in this way in a forced choice.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592

    The SNP would love a referendum on Boris Johnson!

    Yougov had a Tories under Boris on the same in Scotland as Cameron got in 2010 4 years before 55% of Scots voted for the Union with Scottish Labour close to 30% and the SNP unchanged.

    Most Scottish domestic policy is now decided at Holyrood anyway not Westminster regardless of the UK PM it is the FM who decides Scottish domestic policy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592

    I do not think that is what YouGov measured but either way how does "up to 24%" in a hypothetical poll before "25 to 35%"?
    As that would be after reversing Brexit, 24% was with Brexit
  • DavidL said:

    No it isn't. Project fear is doubling down (having lost). We will not be able to fly, we will not be able to drive on the continent, we will have no medicine, we will all starve, all our financial service industries will leave, we will have mass unemployment, we will have war in Northern Ireland, no scare story is too ridiculous. People look at this nonsense and think, nah, don't think so. At the very margins they may be wrong in their assessment but it is a perfectly rational conclusion.
    Well said!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    IanB2 said:

    Why this obsession with counties? As and when NI gets to decide, it'll be one overall vote for the province, just as Brexit has been.
    Nope as NI was only created because of Protestants and the majority of NI people live in Protestant counties. The alternative is the inevitable return of loyalist paramilitaries. Religion and cultural identity is all in NI
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    That's probably a good job too - look in a second EU ref I'd vote to remain most likely. Ceteris Paribus it's simply better for our prosperity to avoid as many barriers such as customs as possible. But please don't for the love of God lead the remain campaign or my fingers might end up slipping to leave xD.
    I have no idea which way I would vote in a second referendum. Right now one would be a really bad idea.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959

    Its called living within your means.

    During the last decade the UK has a cumulative current account deficit of over £700bn

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/hbop/pnbp

    Do you think that can be continued forever ?
    And slightly more than 100% of that is with the EU through the SM. To put it in perspective that is equivalent to more than 30% of our entire GDP for a single year compared to a threatened 4% loss in GDP by 2030 (assuming we don't change our policies at all, act exactly as we would have within the EU, etc) from leaving.
  • HYUFD said:

    As that would be after reversing Brexit, 24% was with Brexit
    So what? I voted for Brexit but I'd never in a million years vote for the far right.

    In fact on this forum I can think of extraordinarily few Brexiteers who would. Maybe you would but don't project that into us.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592
    IanB2 said:

    One way or another we will still need all the EU workers, and just have to hope that they are still willing to come despite an unwelcoming climate and a depreciating currency.
    From 2004 we took far more low skilled European migrants than there were jobs created for them lowering the wages of UK low skilled workers. It is high skilled jobs where the growth is and migration should be focused
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I voted for Brexit but I'd never in a million years vote for the far right.

    You already did
  • Scott_P said:

    You already did
    And you wonder why you aren't taken seriously?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,111
    Dura_Ace said:

    It does have the feel of 1780s France about it.
    You can remember France in the 1780s?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,132
    Ishmael_Z said:

    True, but the more fundamental point is that most people aren't crazed either way. There's a nice bell curved normal distribution of intensity of feeling on both sides of the vote. If you are calling people crazy for disagreeing with you really have already lost the argument.
    There seem to be a few people on this thread calling Mr Meeks crazy...
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,243

    Leaving was democratically chosen.

    Swap the word Leave for democracy and tell me what you would be prepared to sacrifice democracy for? Should you value your own job more than democracy?

    Getting a new job is easier than regaining democracy once lost.
    Given that the same gammon voted in the previous referendum not to make our unrepresentative democracy even slightly more representative, I suspect you are flattering them by attributing to them a noble concern for “democracy”.
  • Given that the same gammon voted in the previous referendum not to make our unrepresentative democracy even slightly more representative, I suspect you are flattering them by attributing to them a noble concern for “democracy”.
    AV isn't proportional....
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    HYUFD said:

    From 2004 we took far more low skilled European migrants than there were jobs created for them lowering the wages of UK low skilled workers

    Citation needed
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    And you wonder why you aren't taken seriously?

    LOL

    You seriously don't think the Brexit vote is the reason BoZo has embraced the Bannon playbook for leadership?

    You seriously don't think he's courting the hard right for votes?

    Seriously?
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Good morning all!

    Perhaps we should have a referendum on whether Mr Meeks should write any more headers about Brexit. I know how I’d vote.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,132
    DavidL said:

    Agreed. It is his obsession with Brexit that leads to these absurd decisions. If Scots choose to leave that is their choice. If the Irish think it is a good idea to start blowing each other up again that would be their choice too. Ultimately people have to make their own choices. That is life.
    Interesting use of 'their'.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,392
    Just to throw some more petrol on a perfectly good fire :)

    Boris's comments about the burka also suffer from not being accurate. My understanding (and I'm happy to be told I'm wrong) is the burka is the full veil covering even the face. I've seen them in the UK but in my part of London they are very rare.

    The niqab has an opening for the eyes - they are more common but again far from universal. Then you have the hijab which is more than just the headscarf - I believe the word translates to a "modest attire" but it's widely practiced and allows for comfortable and easy-fitting clothing to be worn.

    Beyond that you have the chador which is a single garment worn over the top of clothing which covers the head and arms but isn't as restricted as the niqab. That's seen as well.

    So when people talk about the burka they really mean the niqab (with the eye slit). In London at any rate I rarely see the full burka.

    The perception that women are "forced" to wear niqab or burka is one that is very short on evidence and very long on cultural perception. That there are some who are forced to wear it seems undeniable but as a general practice of compulsion I'm much less convinced. In my part of London (and I appreciate in more socially conservative communities this will differ) hijab is the most common form of attire.

    As I said yesterday, there are other religions which prescribe what should be worn and when and by whom but there are particular cultural issues with niqab and burka.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,307
    Give me Brexit/EU or give me death...would really be surprising if it came to that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959
    RoyalBlue said:

    Good morning all!

    Perhaps we should have a referendum on whether Mr Meeks should write any more headers about Brexit. I know how I’d vote.

    I'd vote yes. He is a superb and witty writer, he is thought provoking and he is free! What's not to like? If we all agreed with every header this would be a much duller site.
  • Scott_P said:

    You already did
    I guess the Norwegians voted for the far right twice, then?
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,243
    edited August 2018

    AV isn't proportional....
    I know, which is why I wrote “slightly more representative” rather than “proportional”. ;)

    Mr RoyalBlue, you are, of course, free to set up your own blog. I don’t think OGH has ever claimed his site to be a democracy, though it would be worth it just for the fun we’d have arguing about the voting system to use.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,504
    I wonder if this sort of polling would have been done in Scotland had they voted for independence. Make no mistake, Scotland going independent would have been more divisive by an order of magnitude compared with Brexit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959

    Interesting use of 'their'.
    Hmm...The reason I think is that it would not be my choice, I would vote for the Union. But I take your point.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,994
    DavidL said:

    I'd vote yes. He is a superb and witty writer, he is thought provoking and he is free! What's not to like? If we all agreed with every header this would be a much duller site.
    There is a strain of Brexiteer thinking which treats those who disagree in the manner of Gavin "shut up and go away" Williamson.

    It inspires a similar degree of respect.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    Good morning all!

    Perhaps we should have a referendum on whether Mr Meeks should write any more headers about Brexit. I know how I’d vote.

    Alastair is a PB Institution. Only it isn't clear which Institution he escaped from.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,994
    ydoethur said:

    You can remember France in the 1780s?
    The next Queen's Speech... "Après moi, le déluge".
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,392


    I have no idea which way I would vote in a second referendum. Right now one would be a really bad idea.

    Right now, we have nothing to vote on.

    The problem has always been, as I'm sure you realise, that IF May turns up with an A50 Treaty, the chances are it won't please everybody (or possibly anybody).

    In effect, we'd be back to Stage 1 (or a modified version) and you'd be confronted with the impossibility of a binary referendum with three options:

    A) Accept the May Deal (for she is a goddess who can walk on water and through fire and is the greatest Conservative PM who has ever bestrode the planet (the Blessed Margaret excluded of course))

    B) No, Out means Out. I can't accept this mealy-mouthed piece of Euro-surrendering fudge. I'm leaving and I don't care and Brussels can take their £39 billion and swivel.

    C) Please, Please, Please, Please can we stay in - we'll do anything. We'll join Schengen, take the Euro and host Eurovision in perpetuity.

    As you can imagine, it's a tough choice.

    The only serious option would be in the event of NO Deal for May to call a General Election - May would stand on "I'm right, the Europeans are duplicitous bastards. Britain is wonderful". Corbyn would be all "what about the workers?" while Cable would be nudged awake and say "it's all been a terrible waste of time, effort and political careers. Let's just turn the clock back to 22/6/16 and carry on as if nothing had happened."

    After all, even into the early 90s, the Conservatives claimed Labour would turn the clock back to 1979, turn the country back over to the Unions and force The Jam to re-form.

    That's entertainment !!

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited August 2018
    Off topic of this especially bad tempered thread:

    England 2.5
    India 3.1
    Draw 3.7
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/cricket/event/28832501/multi-market?marketIds=1.146373582

    BBC Weather reckon it’s raining in London at the moment and could be until lunch, does that sound right?
    https://www.bbc.com/weather/0/2643743
    Even if we lose a whole day over the match, we should still see a result so I’m laying the draw and backing India with a trading bet.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,376
    "There seem to be a few people on this thread calling Mr Meeks crazy..."

    Mr Meeks isn't crazy. He's an enthusiastic Europhile who's angry about the result, but ultimately he's a realist. Much of his wilder rhetoric is tongue-in-cheek.

    However, there are a few for whom Brexit is a red rag to a bull. They'd happily trade democracy for a reversal of the referendum. Once you polarise opinion, any compromises become a betrayal.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,395
    Mr. Sandpit, not betting on the cricket, but forecasting recently seems to have been relatively inaccurate.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    CD13 said:

    They'd happily trade democracy for a reversal of the referendum.

    Another vote would be more democracy, not less.

    Why are Brexiteers so afraid?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959
    Sandpit said:

    Off topic of this especially bad tempered thread:

    England 2.5
    India 3.1
    Draw 3.7
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/cricket/event/28832501/multi-market?marketIds=1.146373582

    BBC Weather reckon it’s raining in London at the moment and could be until lunch, does that sound right?
    https://www.bbc.com/weather/0/2643743
    Even if we lose a whole day over the match, we should still see a result so I’m laying the draw and backing India with a trading bet.

    The forecast today looks really poor. That's disappointing. India really should have come a month earlier.
  • HYUFD said:

    Yougov had a Tories under Boris on the same in Scotland as Cameron got in 2010 4 years before 55% of Scots voted for the Union with Scottish Labour close to 30% and the SNP unchanged.

    Most Scottish domestic policy is now decided at Holyrood anyway not Westminster regardless of the UK PM it is the FM who decides Scottish domestic policy

    Good luck with that!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592

    Citation needed
    From 1992 to 2014 for every rise 1% in immigration to do low skilled and semi skilled jobs that reduced wages in those fields by 0.2%

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/working-paper/2015/the-impact-of-immigration-on-occupational-wages-evidence-from-britain
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,504
    Sandpit said:

    Off topic of this especially bad tempered thread:

    England 2.5
    India 3.1
    Draw 3.7
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/cricket/event/28832501/multi-market?marketIds=1.146373582

    BBC Weather reckon it’s raining in London at the moment and could be until lunch, does that sound right?
    https://www.bbc.com/weather/0/2643743
    Even if we lose a whole day over the match, we should still see a result so I’m laying the draw and backing India with a trading bet.

    I reckon there's a decent chance of no play today:

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Citation needed
    It’s the usual fact free xenophobic assertion. It’s as if the GFC didn’t happen.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    What a bizarre poll and thread header.

    It's like "would you rather fight 10 duck sized horses or a horse sized duck ?"

    File all of it in the bin. Then burn the bin.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,592

    So what? I voted for Brexit but I'd never in a million years vote for the far right.

    In fact on this forum I can think of extraordinarily few Brexiteers who would. Maybe you would but don't project that into us.
    I never said I would, I even voted Remain.

    Yougov had 24% voting for a far right party potentially and 38% for a right wing pro Brexit Party
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,376
    Mr P,

    "Another vote would be more democracy, not less."

    And then another one until you get the answer you want.

    Here's an original thought. Once the referendum question has been answered, implement the result. Then, if you decide later you might have changed your mind, start plans to arrange another.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,376
    Dr P.

    "Alastair is a PB Institution. Only it isn't clear which Institution he escaped from."


    LOL.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    CD13 said:

    if you decide later you might have changed your mind, start plans to arrange another.

    This.

    There is no time limit on democracy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,994
    A very interesting interview (for the minority who give a damn about F1) with Red Bull's supposed ogre Helmut Marko on what makes an exceptional driver:

    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/july-2017/120/interview-dr-helmut-marko
    “Another good example is Mark Webber – with whom I now have a good relationship; we shook hands and had a good talk – but he never could overtake properly because he didn’t have the concept in his head. There were days when he could be unbelievably fast. At the Nürburgring Vettel could never get anywhere near him and he won there even with a drive-through. In sector three in Barcelona, there was no way Vettel could compete with him and on fast corners on his day he was just unbelievable, faster than Seb. But he never could put the whole thing together for a championship. Thay stupid crash in Korea. He was ahead of Alonso. But he was bothered that Seb was in front, which didn’t matter.”...

    And perhaps of interest for the Ricciardo replacement betting:

    Sainz? “The first time we put him in an F1 car [Silverstone test 2014] he was quicker than Vettel! That test was the only reason I put him in the Toro Rosso. If his head is free he can deliver. He’s much better since we took Max into RBR. He’s realised the clique around him doesn’t make the decisions. It has to be him.”…
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    tlg86 said:

    I reckon there's a decent chance of no play today:

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar
    Bugger, hope not. Everything crossed that the weather clears this afternoon.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,518
    Another straw in the wind. Duncan Bannatyne supported Brexit.
    https://twitter.com/duncanbannatyne/status/1027177861873131520?s=21
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    CD13 said:

    Mr P,

    "Another vote would be more democracy, not less."

    And then another one until you get the answer you want.

    Here's an original thought. Once the ybreferendum question has been answered, implement the result. Then, if you decide later you might have changed your mind, start plans to arrange another.

    Here’s a thought. Referendums are fundamentally unsuitable to multiple branching consequences where we need third parties to align. They allow demagoguery and simple minded thinking. We elect MPs to mitigate public opinion rather than blindly following it.

    More broadly if the basis of a referendum victory is active lying to a public which is, in broad terms, unused to questions which the consequences of a referendum at basis its moral basis is near zero.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,132
    Speaking of crazy..

    https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1027104221651525633

    Totally unconnected with his Leaveriness I'm sure.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    And long may the Lib Dems Remain the party of Remania.....
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,395
    Excellent article. Very entertaining and scarily so.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100

    And long may the Lib Dems Remain the party of Remania.....
    Technical point. They’ll need to show up to vote.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Should PB.com be renamed FBPE.com ?

    One of the sad parts of the post referendum landscape is the utter lack of betting posts and descent into shrill virtue signalling.


  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    edited August 2018
    HYUFD said:

    From 1992 to 2014 for every rise 1% in immigration to do low skilled and semi skilled jobs that reduced wages in those fields by 0.2%

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/working-paper/2015/the-impact-of-immigration-on-occupational-wages-evidence-from-britain
    That's not what you said - you made a claim on the effect of *existing UK* workers. If lots of people move in and get lower-paying jobs, but the existing workers get better jobs (most directly supervising the newcomers, but also in better jobs created by the new economic activity) that can still reduce the average in those fields, because the newcomers are counted in the average.

    The Bank of England do this because they're the Bank of England, and they're interested in understanding things that affect inflation targets, rather than what's a good immigration policy. For background they summarize the existing research on the effect on *native* workers, which is that there's little or no impact, and what impact there is is mainly on other recent immigrants, apart from one study which everybody else debunks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,994
    CD13 said:

    Dr P.

    "Alastair is a PB Institution. Only it isn't clear which Institution he escaped from."


    LOL.

    Perhaps PB is a Care in the Community institution ?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,615

    And long may the Lib Dems Remain the party of Remania.....
    The MP in question has broken with the Lib Dems on 2nd referendum according to wikipedia.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    TGOHF said:

    Should PB.com be renamed FBPE.com ?

    One of the sad parts of the post referendum landscape is the utter lack of betting posts and descent into shrill virtue signalling.


    It’s August, at the arse end of the Brexit negotiations. What do you expect? Is there a market on what dog whistle Boris the burqa botherer will sound next?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,395
    F1: posted earlier but in case anyone missed it, my mid-season ramble is up.

    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/08/mid-season-review.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,111
    DavidL said:

    I'd vote yes. He is a superb and witty writer, he is thought provoking and he is free! What's not to like? If we all agreed with every header this would be a much duller site.
    If only for that post on avoiding conscription in Turkey, he deserves to be allowed to write thread headers for the rest of his life.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,132

    Another straw in the wind. Duncan Bannatyne supported Brexit.
    https://twitter.com/duncanbannatyne/status/1027177861873131520?s=21

    A straw in the wind in a slightly different context.

    https://twitter.com/ashleyannotate/status/1027453577885876224
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    matt said:

    Here’s a thought. Referendums are fundamentally unsuitable to multiple branching consequences where we need third parties to align. They allow demagoguery and simple minded thinking. We elect MPs to mitigate public opinion rather than blindly following it.

    This has been discussed previously. There is an argument for a referendum where the politicians have decided something they want to do, have a concrete plan for delivery, and are seeking public consent.

    The Ireland abortion referendum followed this model.

    Brexit did not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,111
    Nigelb said:

    The next Queen's Speech... "Après moi, le déluge".
    If we escape the deluge for the 25 years that elapsed between the death of Madame de Pompadour and the storming of the Bastille, I shall be very happy but also very surprised.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096
    Which PB poster (With a vague interest in cricket) is closest to Lords at the moment, and can they give me a weather update. Need to know when best to lay the draw (Or back it if it'll rain all day)..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,111
    edited August 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Which PB poster (With a vague interest in cricket) is closest to Lords at the moment, and can they give me a weather update. Need to know when best to lay the draw (Or back it if it'll rain all day)..

    Surely the value bet if it rains all day is Woakes to play ahead of Moeen?

    Edit - covers are still on the pitch according to Cricinfo and there is drizzle.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,504
    edited August 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Which PB poster (With a vague interest in cricket) is closest to Lords at the moment, and can they give me a weather update. Need to know when best to lay the draw (Or back it if it'll rain all day)..

    I'm three miles from Lords. It's raining here and the light's not great.
  • Scott_P said:

    This has been discussed previously. There is an argument for a referendum where the politicians have decided something they want to do, have a concrete plan for delivery, and are seeking public consent.

    The Ireland abortion referendum followed this model.

    Brexit did not.
    Blame the Remainer PM who called it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959
    Nigelb said:

    Perhaps PB is a Care in the Community institution ?
    As psychiatrists regularly point out you either accept that you are insane or you have no insight into your condition.
  • Given that the same gammon voted in the previous referendum not to make our unrepresentative democracy even slightly more representative, I suspect you are flattering them by attributing to them a noble concern for “democracy”.
    Granting more seats to those who got less votes and handing the power to the losers isn't democratic.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    The poll is very misleading and it is a great shame Alistair can't call it out.

    Brexiters don't think peace in NI is at risk, therefore although the question asks them to assume it is, cognitive dissonance doesn't allow it

    The alternative polling should be death of every first born son. Still leave would get 30%, because the leavers don't think, despite the premise, that that would happen

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,376
    edited August 2018
    Shall we apply arch-Remainer philosophy to General Elections in the future?

    Let's say the Tories win a clear majority next time. Dissemble, waste as much time as we can, launch a legal challenge, lose and then appeal.

    Claim the politicians lied, the Russians used bots, the winning party spent nearly as much as the losers, the Martians used a brain-scrambling device, we're clever than they are.

    Before Parliament even sits, claim the people have changed their minds and democracy demands we have a new election - a people's election. See if we can change the rules so that foreigners and seven-year-olds can vote nest time.

    It's all for democracy, innit?

    Edit: I forgot about claiming that Parliamentary democracy is flawed in that only MPs should have voted.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    CD13 said:

    Mr P,

    "Another vote would be more democracy, not less."

    And then another one until you get the answer you want.

    Here's an original thought. Once the referendum question has been answered, implement the result. Then, if you decide later you might have changed your mind, start plans to arrange another.

    OK, I want Softest possible Brexit, implement that.

    Oh sorry, I can't hear you over the cries of PB Leavers calling me a traitor. Hmmm, seems Brexit doesn't actually mean one simple thing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,111
    edited August 2018
    Don't know whether this (specific) story has been discussed but I can foresee it becoming very nasty:

    Northamptonshire council meets to vote on huge cuts
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-45124215

    Ultimately, this is one of a number of shire counties at risk of being bankrupted by social care costs. This one has broken early because there were other very significant issues which I am aware of but won't reveal for legal reasons.

    There are a number of possible ramifications:

    1) We may well see the end of these authorities in favour of unitary ones in the not-so-distant future, as an economy measure;

    2) Suddenly Theresa May's unfortunate plans on social care may become an issue again.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,569
    ydoethur said:

    Don't know whether this (specific) story has been discussed but I can foresee it becoming very nasty:

    Northamptonshire council meets to vote on huge cuts
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-45124215

    Ultimately, this is one of a number of shire counties at risk of being bankrupted by social care costs.

    There are a number of possible ramifications:

    1) We may well see the end of these authorities in favour of unitary ones in the not-so-distant future, as an economy measure;

    2) Suddenly Theresa May's unfortunate plans on social care may become an issue again.

    I actually came here to highlight this - really should be the big domestic story right now. I'm aware of some of what they are proposing, and I see court cases ahead over what is and isn't statutory provision. Sounds like a nightmare to work there at the moment, albeit a well-paid nightmare in many roles.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    CD13 said:

    "There seem to be a few people on this thread calling Mr Meeks crazy..."

    Mr Meeks isn't crazy. He's an enthusiastic Europhile who's angry about the result, but ultimately he's a realist. Much of his wilder rhetoric is tongue-in-cheek.

    However, there are a few for whom Brexit is a red rag to a bull. They'd happily trade democracy for a reversal of the referendum. Once you polarise opinion, any compromises become a betrayal.

    I think the first mention of words like - mad, crazy, feral, etc - can be found in the thread header! no doubt designed to provoke but it does make any serious attempt at discuss very difficult.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,604

    I was very aware what reaction this piece would produce.

    What not a single poster has done so far is read it to the end where there are testable predictions of what this might mean.
    Er, hello..... I did read to the end and posed a question to you last night about one of your testable predictions.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Scott_P said:

    Another vote would be more democracy, not less.

    Why are Brexiteers so afraid?
    .....and then clearly a fourth, fifth and sixth vote perhaps every other week would get us to the very apex of democracy.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,243
    edited August 2018

    Granting more seats to those who got less votes and handing the power to the losers isn't democratic.
    Thank you for proving the point that most Leavers do not care about representative democracy, they just use it as a the first argument that comes to hand to bolster their increasingly desperate cause.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited August 2018
    felix said:

    perhaps every other week would get us to the very apex of democracy.

    Technically, yes.

    EDIT: There is a scene in the Big Bang Theory where Amy and Sheldon discuss the deals they have made with their mothers to date or attend church once a year. Amy is bemused by the concept of a Deity that takes attendance...

    I am bemused by "democrats" who place limits on how often we can vote.

    1 = democracy

    >1 = anarchy (apparently)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096
    tpfkar said:

    I actually came here to highlight this - really should be the big domestic story right now. I'm aware of some of what they are proposing, and I see court cases ahead over what is and isn't statutory provision. Sounds like a nightmare to work there at the moment, albeit a well-paid nightmare in many roles.
    I've sent an email to the leader of Nottinghamshire council telling her to get on with unitarising the area.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,959

    The poll is very misleading and it is a great shame Alistair can't call it out.

    Brexiters don't think peace in NI is at risk, therefore although the question asks them to assume it is, cognitive dissonance doesn't allow it

    The alternative polling should be death of every first born son. Still leave would get 30%, because the leavers don't think, despite the premise, that that would happen

    Might be more inclined to take the risk if it was every second born son. Just saying.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    The one issue I have with your interesting - if depressing - header is your assumption that Corbyn’s Labour will oppose Brexit. I see nothing to support this. Quite the opposite, in fact. Or are you saying that people believe that he might?
    Apologies, I missed this. No, I don't think Jeremy Corbyn will lead Labour to oppose Brexit (though he might be dragged in that direction). I do think that those firmly opposed to Brexit will nevertheless support Labour as the least worst option.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,376
    Mr Alastair,

    "OK, I want Softest possible Brexit, implement that."

    if I were PM, I take LEAVE to mean leaving the EU and all it's devilish works ... sorry, all its institution. That means we can make our own decisions on trade and FOM. As the ruling party, we would lead the discussions and ensure that result. It would depend on the EU how hard or soft that Brexit became.

    Some people would like the final result, some would dislike it. That's politics. As a Remainer, you would probably dislike it, but many other Remainers would ultimately accept it as honouring the result.

    If you'd like to crowd-fund my run to executive office, you'll have to hurry. I'm as old as Jezza, near enough, but a with a couple of fading neurons more.
This discussion has been closed.