One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)
People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.
In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
Given the number of antisemitic assaults (not just insults) in Germany this year, your friend might want to rethink her choice.
She does not want to live there. But once she has EU citizenship she can live somewhere else in the EU, if she needs to. German citizenship is simply the easiest for her to get. It's the fact that she even thinks that she might need a refuge from Britain which is so heartbreaking.
From talking to Israeli friends recently, it seems that from that country they are mainly concerned about antisemitism in France, where the phrase existential threat does seem more justified, and Germany than here.
One of my best friends (Jewish, lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)
People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.
In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
Given the number of antisemitic assaults (not just insults) in Germany this year, your friend might want to rethink her choice.
She does not want to live there. But once she has EU citizenship she can live somewhere else in the EU, if she needs to. German citizenship is simply the easiest for her to get. It's the fact that she even thinks that she might need a refuge from Britain which is so heartbreaking.
I wish I could get an Irish, or other EU, passport. My ancestry seems to be totally British Isles since the Saxons landed, although there might be a bit of Norman in there somewhere.
We all have Irish passports. Though I got them years ago when Labour decided on ID cards. NFW was I going to have one of those. And my other half is entitled to travel freely throughout the EU as, lucky man, he is married to me.
My surname dates back to the Norman-Welsh invasion of Ireland in the 11th century or thereabouts and the small town my father's family comes from has one of the oldest Norman arches in Ireland, which is the subject of the only painting of the town held in the National Gallery in Dublin. Just outside the town is a 14th century cemetery where both my parents are buried. It has a wonderful view across to the Ballyhoura mountains. It's always seemed fitting to me that cemeteries should have good view, somehow.
A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)
People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.
In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
I hope your friend reconsiders. This country has always been welcoming to Jews, whatever is happening in the Labour party isn't true for the rest of the country.
They should also be careful about going to Germany, anti-Semitic abuse and crime is through the roof there and the German government isn't willing to do anything about it as they would have to admit their first error.
'Antisemitic incidents in UK at all-time high
Charity logs 1,382 hate incidents and 34% rise in violent assaults against Jewish people in 2017'
The number of anti-Semitic crimes in Germany rose by 2.5 percent last year despite an overall drop in politically motivated crimes, statistics showed on Tuesday, reinforcing fears about growing hostility after several high-profile attacks in Berlin. Interior Minister Horst Seehofer said that 1,504 anti-Semitic offences were reported in 2017, up from 1,468 in 2016, though he said there had been fewer attacks on hostels housing refugees. "It is not surprising that the so-called 'imported anti-Semitic crimes' are rising - even if at a lower level. But I want to make clear that almost 95 percent of anti-Semitic crimes in 2017 had a right-wing motive," said Mr Seehofer.'
AIUI the EU judges equivalence of 3rd country systems, including those of the US. The UK was seeking to have a role in judging/setting equivalence frameworks that the EU applies when assessing the UK’s equivalence (kind of like we do as EU members).
I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present. .
Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)
People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.
In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
Given the number of antisemitic assaults (not just insults) in Germany this year, your friend might want to rethink her choice.
She does not want to live there. But once she has EU citizenship she can live somewhere else in the EU, if she needs to. German citizenship is simply the easiest for her to get. It's the fact that she even thinks that she might need a refuge from Britain which is so heartbreaking.
I wish I could get an Irish, or other EU, passport. My ancestry seems to be totally British Isles since the Saxons landed, although there might be a bit of Norman in there somewhere.
The cheeky twats at the Home Office rinse you for nearly 400 quid on the way out too when you renounce British citizenship.
For goodness sake Scott, get a grip. Of course the EU is entitled to determine what regulation will apply to their own domestic market. Of course they will be entitled to come to a view as to whether or not our regulation is equivalent. Equally, it will be for us to determine what regulation is applied to EU banks based in London and doing business here, just as it is with the American and other international banks.
One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)
People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.
In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
Given the number of antisemitic assaults (not just insults) in Germany this year, your friend might want to rethink her choice.
She does not want to live there. But once she has EU citizenship she can live somewhere else in the EU, if she needs to. German citizenship is simply the easiest for her to get. It's the fact that she even thinks that she might need a refuge from Britain which is so heartbreaking.
From talking to Israeli friends recently, it seems that from that country they are mainly concerned about antisemitism in France, where the phrase existential threat does seem more justified, and Germany than here.
The position may be worse in those countries. For now. But I would not gainsay what British Jews feel, as set out in those newspaper reports. In Britain the leader of the Opposition and very possibly the next Labour PM is a man who is friendly with and supports anti-semites and a group, Hamas, whose stated intention is to kill Jews. That at least does not apply to Macron or Merkel, whatever other stupid policies they may have supported which puts Jews at risk in their countries.
A parallel could legitimately be drawn with this case and Trump.
The parallel being when photographs demonstrated turnout for his inauguration was not, as he claimed, higher than for Obama's, he effectively claimed his supporters were there, just invisible.
A parallel could legitimately be drawn with this case and Trump.
The parallel being when photographs demonstrated turnout for his inauguration was not, as he claimed, higher than for Obama's, he effectively claimed his supporters were there, just invisible.
I thought you were going to say that when everyone heard the President say "would" what he really said was "wouldn't".
A parallel could legitimately be drawn with this case and Trump.
The parallel being when photographs demonstrated turnout for his inauguration was not, as he claimed, higher than for Obama's, he effectively claimed his supporters were there, just invisible.
I thought you were going to say that when everyone heard the President say "would" what he really said was "wouldn't".
That one as well maybe...it's not as though we're short of choice.
The parallels with Trump are huge. The emboldening of groups that have racist views and the claim of blame on both sides / fake news / conspiracy theories by the cultists and the man with the power to do something just shrugs.
So what’s the point of leaving with the deal again?
We avoid Crashout Brexit and get controls over Freedom of Movement, at the cost of surrendering control over financial issues.
Seriously, although I am amused at the idea of the EU imposing a Tobin Tax on us post Brexit, it would be a very bad idea to introduce regulatory equivalence between the UK and the EU on terms dictated by the EU. The EU have unfortunately amply demonstrated over the last eleven years that they have no clue what they're doing in fincancial matters and no intention of learning from their very many mistakes. Leaving the City open to their bungling would leave us wide open to contagion the next time there's a banking crisis in the EU - which would almost certainly follow swiftly from Brexit.
For goodness sake Scott, get a grip. Of course the EU is entitled to determine what regulation will apply to their own domestic market. Of course they will be entitled to come to a view as to whether or not our regulation is equivalent. Equally, it will be for us to determine what regulation is applied to EU banks based in London and doing business here, just as it is with the American and other international banks.
Its like the Road Haulage Association story. "British lorries won't be able to drive in EU". Do people seriously think that "EU lorries will be able to drive in the UK"? Perhaps a deal will be done? Posting one side of the armageddon story isn't going to persuade anyone.
For goodness sake Scott, get a grip. Of course the EU is entitled to determine what regulation will apply to their own domestic market. Of course they will be entitled to come to a view as to whether or not our regulation is equivalent. Equally, it will be for us to determine what regulation is applied to EU banks based in London and doing business here, just as it is with the American and other international banks.
Its like the Road Haulage Association story. "British lorries won't be able to drive in EU". Do people seriously think that "EU lorries will be able to drive in the UK"? Perhaps a deal will be done? Posting one side of the armageddon story isn't going to persuade anyone.
Well, if they can't drive in the UK, and our hauliers can't drive in the EU, then we can at least stop worrying about Customs Arrangements as all trade will grind to a juddering halt anyway.
Which is the very point I was raising with Alistair over this case last week.
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present. .
Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)
People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.
In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
Given the number of antisemitic assaults (not just insults) in Germany this year, your friend might want to rethink her choice.
She does not want to live there. But once she has EU citizenship she can live somewhere else in the EU, if she needs to. German citizenship is simply the easiest for her to get. It's the fact that she even thinks that she might need a refuge from Britain which is so heartbreaking.
I wish I could get an Irish, or other EU, passport. My ancestry seems to be totally British Isles since the Saxons landed, although there might be a bit of Norman in there somewhere.
The cheeky twats at the Home Office rinse you for nearly 400 quid on the way out too when you renounce British citizenship.
So what’s the point of leaving with the deal again?
We avoid Crashout Brexit and get controls over Freedom of Movement, at the cost of surrendering control over financial issues.
Seriously, although I am amused at the idea of the EU imposing a Tobin Tax on us post Brexit, it would be a very bad idea to introduce regulatory equivalence between the UK and the EU on terms dictated by the EU. The EU have unfortunately amply demonstrated over the last eleven years that they have no clue what they're doing in fincancial matters and no intention of learning from their very many mistakes. Leaving the City open to their bungling would leave us wide open to contagion the next time there's a banking crisis in the EU - which would almost certainly follow swiftly from Brexit.
Well, yeah, but it'd get less pushback from the main group of Leave voters. I mean, if the choice was "stop Freedom of Movement" versus "Lose chunks of the City's Financial Sector", what do you think the public would say?
It's a deal that (mostly) complies with the spirit of the Leave vote as we understand it, avoids the worst chaos and damage, and maintains the most important of the red lines. Me, I'd prefer to take an eraser to the red line in question and sign straight up to the EEA, but I fully understand that ain't gonna fly.
Someone must have edited off the bit at the start where he says "Now, I don't believe any of what I am about to say, but just to play Devils' Advocate..."
I am not surprised by this. The sad fact is, a lot of people in GB, particularly those of a more isolationist tendency, don't care much about Ireland. This sentiment has long existed among a sizeable proportion of the population imo, even during the peak of the Troubles.
Which is the very point I was raising with Alistair over this case last week.
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
The Electoral Commission is charged with issuing fines in appropriate cases. You might not like that, but it is:
It has referred the question of criminal charges relating to other electoral offences to the appropriate authorities.
Mr Grimes's lawyers seem confused between the role of the DCMS and the role of the DCMS select committee. That confusion rather undermines the other, apparently more interesting, points.
I am not surprised by this. The sad fact is, a lot of people in GB, particularly those of a more isolationist tendency, don't care much about Ireland. This sentiment has long existed among a sizeable proportion of the population imo, even during the peak of the Troubles.
And they’ve ended up in a political coalition with people who secretly think the solution is to annex Ireland and start rebuilding the empire.
It is tempting to describe cities as bastions of liberalism and the hinterlands as reactionary. While that might be true when it comes to social values, there is also an incipient tendency for outvoted urbanites to sour on democracy.
In Egypt, many of the urban middle classes, who had campaigned for democracy in 2011, ended up supporting a military coup two years later because they feared the elected Muslim Brotherhood government was turning the country into a theocracy. In Thailand in 2014, a military coup that ended red shirt rule seemed to enjoy considerable support from Bangkok’s middle classes. In Brazil, at the moment, the professional classes of Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro tend to be in favour of the imprisonment on corruption charges of the leftist, former president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, even though he might well win the presidency again, if he were allowed to run later this year.
The west’s metropolitan elites have not yet turned against democracy. But some may harbour doubts. In Britain, many ardent Remainers are eager to overturn Britain’s vote to leave the EU.
"Setting up an SDP re-enactment society" is not the answer.
"This is the fight of our political lives, saving Labour and restoring it to decency is the most important thing any of us can do for our country’s future. You don’t quit at the start of that kind of fight. You don’t stop until you have won."
No surprise whatsoever about the equivalence for financial services. @Casino_Royale asked about whether the EU regulates New York. Of course it doesn't. But it regulates US firms who want to do client business in the EU.
Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.
Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.
Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.
Also, minorities, such as Jews, are already being targeted. See the extraordinary statement by one poster here about their “long term future” and other public figures saying that it is their fault that they are being picked on by Labour. I feel that Labour has already crossed a line of decency into behaviour and attitudes which are reminiscent of 1930’s Fascist or Nazi parties. Even worse, if possible, is that so many people are trying their hardest to ignore this or justify it. I am afraid that I do not admire such people, however calm they are. They are, in the words of MPs commenting on the aid scandal, guilty of “complacency verging on complicity”.
Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
Which is the very point I was raising with Alistair over this case last week.
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
The Electoral Commission is charged with issuing fines in appropriate cases. You might not like that, but it is:
It has referred the question of criminal charges relating to other electoral offences to the appropriate authorities.
Mr Grimes's lawyers seem confused between the role of the DCMS and the role of the DCMS select committee. That confusion rather undermines the other, apparently more interesting, points.
I feel this is an important case to be seen before the courts. I geuinely don't know which way it might go, Saunders raise some interesting points in Grimes' defence on their website though.
No surprise whatsoever about the equivalence for financial services. @Casino_Royale asked about whether the EU regulates New York. Of course it doesn't. But it regulates US firms who want to do client business in the EU.
Of course it does. And London will continue to regulate those that do business here. Obviously on day 1 there will be equivalence because our law is their law as of now. The problem may come the road if the EU (or the UK) seeks to impose regulations or obligations that the other side does not agree with. Given the size and sophistication of London compared with every other financial centre in the EU this may be more of a theoretical issue than a real one but at the end of the day each side has to make their own decisions.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
No surprise whatsoever about the equivalence for financial services. @Casino_Royale asked about whether the EU regulates New York. Of course it doesn't. But it regulates US firms who want to do client business in the EU.
Of course it does. And London will continue to regulate those that do business here. Obviously on day 1 there will be equivalence because our law is their law as of now. The problem may come the road if the EU (or the UK) seeks to impose regulations or obligations that the other side does not agree with. Given the size and sophistication of London compared with every other financial centre in the EU this may be more of a theoretical issue than a real one but at the end of the day each side has to make their own decisions.
Yes but as with the famous exports dynamic (we export nearly 50% to the EU, whereas the number for exports to us for individual EU countries is 6-10%), as a whole the EU is a huge market. I wouldn't rely too heavily on the they need us more than we need them idea.
Which is the very point I was raising with Alistair over this case last week.
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
The Electoral Commission is charged with issuing fines in appropriate cases. You might not like that, but it is:
It has referred the question of criminal charges relating to other electoral offences to the appropriate authorities.
Mr Grimes's lawyers seem confused between the role of the DCMS and the role of the DCMS select committee. That confusion rather undermines the other, apparently more interesting, points.
My point, all the way through, is that whatever construction the EC are putting on their powers, this is not an appropriate case.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
"most people in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism"
Which is the very point I was raising with Alistair over this case last week.
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
The Electoral Commission is charged with issuing fines in appropriate cases. You might not like that, but it is:
It has referred the question of criminal charges relating to other electoral offences to the appropriate authorities.
Mr Grimes's lawyers seem confused between the role of the DCMS and the role of the DCMS select committee. That confusion rather undermines the other, apparently more interesting, points.
Yes, holding the DCMS responsible for the Select Committee's report seems a really weird starting point. Their description of the steps taken by the EC does seem to suggest some concerns about the fairness of the process, however.
My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that there is a right of appeal to the Court against the EC decision. I don't understand the DCMS to have any decision making role in this so I don't really understand the point they are making in that respect either. It seems a bit confused.
Which is the very point I was raising with Alistair over this case last week.
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
The Electoral Commission is charged with issuing fines in appropriate cases. You might not like that, but it is:
It has referred the question of criminal charges relating to other electoral offences to the appropriate authorities.
Mr Grimes's lawyers seem confused between the role of the DCMS and the role of the DCMS select committee. That confusion rather undermines the other, apparently more interesting, points.
I feel this is an important case to be seen before the courts. I geuinely don't know which way it might go, Saunders raise some interesting points in Grimes' defence on their website though.
What odds would you put on it ?
The case is going to turn on facts that have not yet reached the public domain. It could be a slam-dunk either way. It wouldn't be the first time that a public body had followed an incompetent process and it wouldn't be the first time that someone made entirely unsubstantiated claims against a public body. We'll have to see the facts as they unfold.
I feel this is an important case to be seen before the courts. I geuinely don't know which way it might go, Saunders raise some interesting points in Grimes' defence on their website though.
What odds would you put on it ?
The case is going to turn on facts that have not yet reached the public domain. It could be a slam-dunk either way. It wouldn't be the first time that a public body had followed an incompetent process and it wouldn't be the first time that someone made entirely unsubstantiated claims against a public body. We'll have to see the facts as they unfold.
You're not helping the public perception of lawyers giving weaselly answers
I feel this is an important case to be seen before the courts. I geuinely don't know which way it might go, Saunders raise some interesting points in Grimes' defence on their website though.
What odds would you put on it ?
The case is going to turn on facts that have not yet reached the public domain. It could be a slam-dunk either way. It wouldn't be the first time that a public body had followed an incompetent process and it wouldn't be the first time that someone made entirely unsubstantiated claims against a public body. We'll have to see the facts as they unfold.
You're not helping the public perception of lawyers giving weaselly answers
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
Which is the very point I was raising with Alistair over this case last week.
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
The Electoral Commission is charged with issuing fines in appropriate cases. You might not like that, but it is:
It has referred the question of criminal charges relating to other electoral offences to the appropriate authorities.
Mr Grimes's lawyers seem confused between the role of the DCMS and the role of the DCMS select committee. That confusion rather undermines the other, apparently more interesting, points.
My point, all the way through, is that whatever construction the EC are putting on their powers, this is not an appropriate case.
I have no idea how you begin to justify that view.
I feel this is an important case to be seen before the courts. I geuinely don't know which way it might go, Saunders raise some interesting points in Grimes' defence on their website though.
What odds would you put on it ?
The case is going to turn on facts that have not yet reached the public domain. It could be a slam-dunk either way. It wouldn't be the first time that a public body had followed an incompetent process and it wouldn't be the first time that someone made entirely unsubstantiated claims against a public body. We'll have to see the facts as they unfold.
You're not helping the public perception of lawyers giving weaselly answers
I don't know. Alastair has used 64 words to say 'It depends'. A fine example of the breed .
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
Some people are just obnoxious. In the (more homogenous) past, I got into fights because of my Irish surname, the fact I wore glasses, I looked at their bird, I spilt their beer, I looked at them funny. Said obnoxious twats simply have an expanded range of targets.
Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.
Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.
Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.
Also, minorities, such as Jews, are already being targeted. See the extraordinary statement by one poster here about their “long term future” and other public figures saying that it is their fault that they are being picked on by Labour. I feel that Labour has already crossed a line of decency into behaviour and attitudes which are reminiscent of 1930’s Fascist or Nazi parties. Even worse, if possible, is that so many people are trying their hardest to ignore this or justify it. I am afraid that I do not admire such people, however calm they are. They are, in the words of MPs commenting on the aid scandal, guilty of “complacency verging on complicity”.
Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
The first volume of Klemperer's diary is an instructive read, written contemporaneously as things slowly got worse for the Jews. Attitudes that it was temporary or would soon blow over were widespread, and at one point some argue they should support Hitler for fear of getting someone more dangerous to Jewish interests.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
It is why Brexit has to happen. The boil must be lanced and the idiocy of nationalist isolationary policies exposed for all to see.
I am not surprised by this. The sad fact is, a lot of people in GB, particularly those of a more isolationist tendency, don't care much about Ireland. This sentiment has long existed among a sizeable proportion of the population imo, even during the peak of the Troubles.
It would be hard to argue that through history the net benefit of our involvement with Ireland outweighs the considerable costs and grief that had ensued, and in present day economic terms the net benefit is unclear. So they are being entirely rational if that is their view.
The case is going to turn on facts that have not yet reached the public domain. It could be a slam-dunk either way. It wouldn't be the first time that a public body had followed an incompetent process and it wouldn't be the first time that someone made entirely unsubstantiated claims against a public body. We'll have to see the facts as they unfold.
You're not helping the public perception of lawyers giving weaselly answers
I don't know. Alastair has used 64 words to say 'It depends'. A fine example of the breed .
You're right. "Unnecessarily verbose" rather than "weaselly".
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
The first volume of Klemperer's diary is an instructive read, written contemporaneously as things slowly got worse for the Jews. Attitudes that it was temporary or would soon blow over were widespread, and at one point some argue they should support Hitler for fear of getting someone more dangerous to Jewish interests.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
Some people are just obnoxious. In the (more homogenous) past, I got into fights because of my Irish surname, the fact I wore glasses, I looked at their bird, I spilt their beer, I looked at them funny. Said obnoxious twats simply have an expanded range of targets.
Those at the top need shock troops If we lacked "The Obnoxinous" they would have to invent them.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
That is true , however many on here made the argument , that people in authority were scared to make public that it was in many cases Pakistani men grooming young white girls.Because they were scared of been called racist.
The same could apply to any criticism of The current Israel state on how it treats its citizens of a differing faith.Many could turn a blind eye because of the fear of been labelled as a racist.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
It is why Brexit has to happen. The boil must be lanced and the idiocy of nationalist isolationary policies exposed for all to see.
Surely it is the protectionist EU which is more isolationist than the UK.
The EU negotiating stance towards the future separate UK is an example of the EU's protectionist attitude.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
It is why Brexit has to happen. The boil must be lanced and the idiocy of nationalist isolationary policies exposed for all to see.
Surely it is the protectionist EU which is more isolationist than the UK.
The EU negotiating stance towards the future separate UK is an example of the EU's protectionist attitude.
Do you really believe that or are you just parroting soundbites designed to drive people mad?
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
It is why Brexit has to happen. The boil must be lanced and the idiocy of nationalist isolationary policies exposed for all to see.
Surely it is the protectionist EU which is more isolationist than the UK.
The EU negotiating stance towards the future separate UK is an example of the EU's protectionist attitude.
This would be the EU that is so isolationist that many Leavers complain that it is inviting too many others countries to join?
It is no more protectionist than any other trading bloc
Which is the very point I was raising with Alistair over this case last week.
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
The Electoral Commission is charged with issuing fines in appropriate cases. You might not like that, but it is:
It has referred the question of criminal charges relating to other electoral offences to the appropriate authorities.
Mr Grimes's lawyers seem confused between the role of the DCMS and the role of the DCMS select committee. That confusion rather undermines the other, apparently more interesting, points.
I feel this is an important case to be seen before the courts. I geuinely don't know which way it might go, Saunders raise some interesting points in Grimes' defence on their website though.
What odds would you put on it ?
The case is going to turn on facts that have not yet reached the public domain. It could be a slam-dunk either way. It wouldn't be the first time that a public body had followed an incompetent process and it wouldn't be the first time that someone made entirely unsubstantiated claims against a public body. We'll have to see the facts as they unfold.
If the Electoral Commission process is at fault then Grimes could get off.
Grimes will not get off by seeking someone else to make the decision instead of the Electoral Commission, who are the body appointed to make the decision.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
That is true , however many on here made the argument , that people in authority were scared to make public that it was in many cases Pakistani men grooming young white girls.Because they were scared of been called racist.
My view is a very simple one, you cannot break the law and hide behind "culture". The law is the law and must be enforced. Those who covered it up are as guilty as the perpetrators.
The same could apply to any criticism of The current Israel state on how it treats its citizens of a differing faith.Many could turn a blind eye because of the fear of been labelled as a racist.
Alas, nationalism is on the rise - "them" or "us"....
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
Some people are just obnoxious. In the (more homogenous) past, I got into fights because of my Irish surname, the fact I wore glasses, I looked at their bird, I spilt their beer, I looked at them funny. Said obnoxious twats simply have an expanded range of targets.
There however is not a readily identifiable group of beer spillers which those obnoxious twats can be galvanised into action against.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
Some people are just obnoxious. In the (more homogenous) past, I got into fights because of my Irish surname, the fact I wore glasses, I looked at their bird, I spilt their beer, I looked at them funny. Said obnoxious twats simply have an expanded range of targets.
There however is not a readily identifiable group of beer spillers which those obnoxious twats can be galvanised into action against.
Football fans? The trend to throwing your been up in the air when watching a game was definitely one of the oddest of the summer.
However, after British officials clarified that this was not part of the plan and that power to grant access to those markets would remain in the hands of Brussels, Barnier is believed to have climbed down from that position.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
Some people are just obnoxious. In the (more homogenous) past, I got into fights because of my Irish surname, the fact I wore glasses, I looked at their bird, I spilt their beer, I looked at them funny. Said obnoxious twats simply have an expanded range of targets.
There however is not a readily identifiable group of beer spillers which those obnoxious twats can be galvanised into action against.
Football fans? The trend to throwing your been up in the air when watching a game was definitely one of the oddest of the summer.
However, after British officials clarified that this was not part of the plan and that power to grant access to those markets would remain in the hands of Brussels, Barnier is believed to have climbed down from that position.
There will be a deal on this even on a no deal scenario. Similarly planes, trucks etc. In fact it is getting a little complicated to work out what a "no deal" is actually going to look like. I suspect it will comprise a series of "mini deals" on specific topics but without an overarching structure.
However, after British officials clarified that this was not part of the plan and that power to grant access to those markets would remain in the hands of Brussels, Barnier is believed to have climbed down from that position.
There will be a deal on this even on a no deal scenario. Similarly planes, trucks etc. In fact it is getting a little complicated to work out what a "no deal" is actually going to look like. I suspect it will comprise a series of "mini deals" on specific topics but without an overarching structure.
That's dangerously complacent. No Deal means No Deal.
However, after British officials clarified that this was not part of the plan and that power to grant access to those markets would remain in the hands of Brussels, Barnier is believed to have climbed down from that position.
There will be a deal on this even on a no deal scenario. Similarly planes, trucks etc. In fact it is getting a little complicated to work out what a "no deal" is actually going to look like. I suspect it will comprise a series of "mini deals" on specific topics but without an overarching structure.
That's dangerously complacent. No Deal means No Deal.
But that's my point, it won't. It will certainly mean no SM and no CU. But what else will it mean? I think it is becoming increasingly unclear.
Hmm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with the blue badge scheme being extended as far as it seemingly might be - it'd be interesting to see some polling on the matter.
It could negatively affect those who absolubtely need a blue badge space (Wheelchair users and the like).
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
It is why Brexit has to happen. The boil must be lanced and the idiocy of nationalist isolationary policies exposed for all to see.
Surely it is the protectionist EU which is more isolationist than the UK.
The EU negotiating stance towards the future separate UK is an example of the EU's protectionist attitude.
Exactly. The EU is a protectionist organisation that seeks to control how its members interact with the rest of the world. We are better off on the outside in charge of our own destiny.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
That is true , however many on here made the argument , that people in authority were scared to make public that it was in many cases Pakistani men grooming young white girls.Because they were scared of been called racist.
The same could apply to any criticism of The current Israel state on how it treats its citizens of a differing faith.Many could turn a blind eye because of the fear of been labelled as a racist.
Perhaps, but that fear doesn’t seem to have much of a chilling effect on people’s willingness to discuss Israel within the Labour Party so far. Some individuals are going to have to decide whether the subject is really so important that they are prepared to let it overshadow everything else that the party is trying to do.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
It is why Brexit has to happen. The boil must be lanced and the idiocy of nationalist isolationary policies exposed for all to see.
Surely it is the protectionist EU which is more isolationist than the UK.
The EU negotiating stance towards the future separate UK is an example of the EU's protectionist attitude.
Exactly. The EU is a protectionist organisation that seeks to control how its members interact with the rest of the world. We are better off on the outside in charge of our own destiny.
If we didn't have the EU seeking to control how we interact with the rest of the world, why we could jolly well invade Iraq if we wanted to!
So what’s the point of leaving with the deal again?
We avoid Crashout Brexit and get controls over Freedom of Movement, at the cost of surrendering control over financial issues.
Seriously, although I am amused at the idea of the EU imposing a Tobin Tax on us post Brexit, it would be a very bad idea to introduce regulatory equivalence between the UK and the EU on terms dictated by the EU. The EU have unfortunately amply demonstrated over the last eleven years that they have no clue what they're doing in fincancial matters and no intention of learning from their very many mistakes. Leaving the City open to their bungling would leave us wide open to contagion the next time there's a banking crisis in the EU - which would almost certainly follow swiftly from Brexit.
If we’re going to have the Chequers Deal, i’d rather have full regulatory freedom and independence for our financial services sector rather than cling ourselves to the regulatory bosom of the EU forevermore to maintain a nominal equivalence.
However, after British officials clarified that this was not part of the plan and that power to grant access to those markets would remain in the hands of Brussels, Barnier is believed to have climbed down from that position.
There will be a deal on this even on a no deal scenario. Similarly planes, trucks etc. In fact it is getting a little complicated to work out what a "no deal" is actually going to look like. I suspect it will comprise a series of "mini deals" on specific topics but without an overarching structure.
That's dangerously complacent. No Deal means No Deal.
But that's my point, it won't. It will certainly mean no SM and no CU. But what else will it mean? I think it is becoming increasingly unclear.
I think that assuming “no deal” means “we’ll work out all the details informally with no problem” is a bit like getting rid of “inefficient” back office staff because they “don’t do anything useful” - the existing relationship with the EU is complicated, makes a lot of things work, and a more efficient alternative can’t just be wished into existence.
No surprise whatsoever about the equivalence for financial services. @Casino_Royale asked about whether the EU regulates New York. Of course it doesn't. But it regulates US firms who want to do client business in the EU.
Of course it does. And London will continue to regulate those that do business here. Obviously on day 1 there will be equivalence because our law is their law as of now. The problem may come the road if the EU (or the UK) seeks to impose regulations or obligations that the other side does not agree with. Given the size and sophistication of London compared with every other financial centre in the EU this may be more of a theoretical issue than a real one but at the end of the day each side has to make their own decisions.
So what’s the point of leaving with the deal again?
We avoid Crashout Brexit and get controls over Freedom of Movement, at the cost of surrendering control over financial issues.
Seriously, although I am amused at the idea of the EU imposing a Tobin Tax on us post Brexit, it would be a very bad idea to introduce regulatory equivalence between the UK and the EU on terms dictated by the EU. The EU have unfortunately amply demonstrated over the last eleven years that they have no clue what they're doing in fincancial matters and no intention of learning from their very many mistakes. Leaving the City open to their bungling would leave us wide open to contagion the next time there's a banking crisis in the EU - which would almost certainly follow swiftly from Brexit.
If we’re going to have the Chequers Deal, i’d rather have full regulatory freedom and independence for our financial services sector rather than cling ourselves to the regulatory bosom of the EU forevermore to maintain a nominal equivalence.
Wrt to a financial transactions tax, it isn't easy to see how they would force the government to collect a tax it doesn't want to. Tax is outside the scope of the EBA and ESMA, it would have to be imposed separately by all 27 EU nations which means it would be outside of the scope of regulatory equivalence, given that taxes aren't regulations.
I am not surprised by this. The sad fact is, a lot of people in GB, particularly those of a more isolationist tendency, don't care much about Ireland. This sentiment has long existed among a sizeable proportion of the population imo, even during the peak of the Troubles.
It would be hard to argue that through history the net benefit of our involvement with Ireland outweighs the considerable costs and grief that had ensued, and in present day economic terms the net benefit is unclear. So they are being entirely rational if that is their view.
Our record in Ireland is appalling.
Had it not been so, I’d expect Ireland to still be part of the UK today.
From personal experience I have come to the conclusion today that the EU is part of the Virgin Media franchise. It has offered good deals in recent years but only to new joiners, those deals being heavily subsidised by existing subscribers who pay through the nose. My past commitment to the company (something not uncommon amongst colleagues on the left, a remarkable number of whom have virgin media/blueyonder etc e-mail addresses) which initially was out of principle (i.e. anything to avoid giving money to Murdoch) has gradually been eroded in the light of experience and I am now prepared to walk away. It cannot get access to (Sky) Atlantic trade deals and has recently seen other longstanding deals pulled by one of its staple markets (UK TV). It is extremely difficult to leave, requiring customers to have several attempts before finally getting through to the relevant department. Even then having determined to Leave, the wait on the phone was such that the process seemed to take years.
The good news is that because Virgin Media (and the EU) knows that despite all its bluster it is basically offering an inferior product and its share of the market is declining, it is secretly prepared to offer a deal when it can tell that customers are not making idle threats to walk away. So having faffed about for years, I did finally start from that premise today. i.e. I am going to leave, I'm not prepared to negotiate with you, I know you get much more value from me than the value you give me in return and what I could get elsewhere. At the 11th hour I was offered a deal out of thin air that undercut even what is on offer to new Sky subscribers.
An object lesson in showing resolve in negotiations, and being prepared to settle for no deal and mean it, in order to get what you want.
I am not surprised by this. The sad fact is, a lot of people in GB, particularly those of a more isolationist tendency, don't care much about Ireland. This sentiment has long existed among a sizeable proportion of the population imo, even during the peak of the Troubles.
It would be hard to argue that through history the net benefit of our involvement with Ireland outweighs the considerable costs and grief that had ensued, and in present day economic terms the net benefit is unclear. So they are being entirely rational if that is their view.
Our record in Ireland is appalling.
Had it not been so, I’d expect Ireland to still be part of the UK today.
Not sure what you mean. Apart from the odd invasion, pillage, imposition of a ruling class, famine and rather brutal civil war where did we go wrong?
I am not surprised by this. The sad fact is, a lot of people in GB, particularly those of a more isolationist tendency, don't care much about Ireland. This sentiment has long existed among a sizeable proportion of the population imo, even during the peak of the Troubles.
It would be hard to argue that through history the net benefit of our involvement with Ireland outweighs the considerable costs and grief that had ensued, and in present day economic terms the net benefit is unclear. So they are being entirely rational if that is their view.
Our record in Ireland is appalling.
Had it not been so, I’d expect Ireland to still be part of the UK today.
I very much doubt that. Ireland saw themselves (probably rightly) as Britain's nearest colony. That arrangement wouldn't have lasted into the modern age, no matter how benign we might have been.
From personal experience I have come to the conclusion today that the EU is part of the Virgin Media franchise. It has offered good deals in recent years but only to new joiners, those deals being heavily subsidised by existing subscribers who pay through the nose. My past commitment to the company (something not uncommon amongst colleagues on the left, a remarkable number of whom have virgin media/blueyonder etc e-mail addresses) which initially was out of principle (i.e. anything to avoid giving money to Murdoch) has gradually been eroded in the light of experience and I am now prepared to walk away. It cannot get access to (Sky) Atlantic trade deals and has recently seen other longstanding deals pulled by one of its staple markets (UK TV). It is extremely difficult to leave, requiring customers to have several attempts before finally getting through to the relevant department. Even then having determined to Leave, the wait on the phone was such that the process seemed to take years.
The good news is that because Virgin Media (and the EU) knows that despite all its bluster it is basically offering an inferior product and its share of the market is declining, it is secretly prepared to offer a deal when it can tell that customers are not making idle threats to walk away. So having faffed about for years, I did finally start from that premise today. i.e. I am going to leave, I'm not prepared to negotiate with you, I know you get much more value from me than the value you give me in return and what I could get elsewhere. At the 11th hour I was offered a deal out of thin air that undercut even what is on offer to new Sky subscribers.
An object lesson in showing resolve in negotiations, and being prepared to settle for no deal and mean it, in order to get what you want.
So what’s the point of leaving with the deal again?
We avoid Crashout Brexit and get controls over Freedom of Movement, at the cost of surrendering control over financial issues.
Seriously, although I am amused at the idea of the EU imposing a Tobin Tax on us post Brexit, it would be a very bad idea to introduce regulatory equivalence between the UK and the EU on terms dictated by the EU. The EU have unfortunately amply demonstrated over the last eleven years that they have no clue what they're doing in fincancial matters and no intention of learning from their very many mistakes. Leaving the City open to their bungling would leave us wide open to contagion the next time there's a banking crisis in the EU - which would almost certainly follow swiftly from Brexit.
If we’re going to have the Chequers Deal, i’d rather have full regulatory freedom and independence for our financial services sector rather than cling ourselves to the regulatory bosom of the EU forevermore to maintain a nominal equivalence.
Wrt to a financial transactions tax, it isn't easy to see how they would force the government to collect a tax it doesn't want to. Tax is outside the scope of the EBA and ESMA, it would have to be imposed separately by all 27 EU nations which means it would be outside of the scope of regulatory equivalence, given that taxes aren't regulations.
A financial transactions tax is a great idea if done in moderation, and I look forward to it coming about in the rest of the EU once the dead blocking hand of the UK government is removed. At which point the merits will become obvious and the UK will then belatedly join in.
It's a bit like all those measures within the UK which were once resisted by Westminster civil servants, only to see them proved wrong when implemented elsewhere once the Scots and Welsh got the power to try them out, after which the English belatedly joined in.
The Jewish Labour Movement have resubmitted their complaint to the Labour Party, meaning Jennie Formby now has a second chance to get it right, get rid of Willsman and admit she screwed up. Not a great look at all if Corbyn and Formby sat through Willsman’s rant about Jews, said and did nothing to oppose him, and then Formby failed to take any action…
I am not surprised by this. The sad fact is, a lot of people in GB, particularly those of a more isolationist tendency, don't care much about Ireland. This sentiment has long existed among a sizeable proportion of the population imo, even during the peak of the Troubles.
It would be hard to argue that through history the net benefit of our involvement with Ireland outweighs the considerable costs and grief that had ensued, and in present day economic terms the net benefit is unclear. So they are being entirely rational if that is their view.
Our record in Ireland is appalling.
Had it not been so, I’d expect Ireland to still be part of the UK today.
Not sure what you mean. Apart from the odd invasion, pillage, imposition of a ruling class, famine and rather brutal civil war where did we go wrong?
So what’s the point of leaving with the deal again?
We avoid Crashout Brexit and get controls over Freedom of Movement, at the cost of surrendering control over financial issues.
Seriously, although I am amused at the idea of the EU imposing a Tobin Tax on us post Brexit, it would be a very bad idea to introduce regulatory equivalence between the UK and the EU on terms dictated by the EU. The EU have unfortunately amply demonstrated over the last eleven years that they have no clue what they're doing in fincancial matters and no intention of learning from their very many mistakes. Leaving the City open to their bungling would leave us wide open to contagion the next time there's a banking crisis in the EU - which would almost certainly follow swiftly from Brexit.
If we’re going to have the Chequers Deal, i’d rather have full regulatory freedom and independence for our financial services sector rather than cling ourselves to the regulatory bosom of the EU forevermore to maintain a nominal equivalence.
Wrt to a financial transactions tax, it isn't easy to see how they would force the government to collect a tax it doesn't want to. Tax is outside the scope of the EBA and ESMA, it would have to be imposed separately by all 27 EU nations which means it would be outside of the scope of regulatory equivalence, given that taxes aren't regulations.
A financial transactions tax is a great idea if done in moderation, and I look forward to it coming about in the rest of the EU once the dead blocking hand of the UK government is removed. At which point the merits will become obvious and the UK will then belatedly join in.
It's a bit like all those measures within the UK which were once resisted by Westminster civil servants, only to see them proved wrong when implemented elsewhere once the Scots and Welsh got the power to try them out, after which the English belatedly joined in.
The UK already has a financial transaction tax (stamp duty) and it is being done in moderation. The EU proposal to tax derivatives is not moderation, it is certifiable.
The problem is that Nationalism too often becomes a way of expressing hate, or at least distaste, of "others", "them" rather than "us" and then you are only a few steps away from ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
It's upsetting to hear anyone say that. I have no counter-argument...
There is a counter argument , that it is bull shit.Most peoplle in this country have no such inclination to any sort of racism.They are the majority.Not some nutjobs on twitter and the occasional one on here.
Most people do very little other than try to get on day to day. It is the noisy minority that drive things forward rather than the silent majority. You can support racism and xenophobia by omission, by simply not calling it out.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
That is true , however many on here made the argument , that people in authority were scared to make public that it was in many cases Pakistani men grooming young white girls.Because they were scared of been called racist.
The same could apply to any criticism of The current Israel state on how it treats its citizens of a differing faith.Many could turn a blind eye because of the fear of been labelled as a racist.
Perhaps, but that fear doesn’t seem to have much of a chilling effect on people’s willingness to discuss Israel within the Labour Party so far. Some individuals are going to have to decide whether the subject is really so important that they are prepared to let it overshadow everything else that the party is trying to do.
I agree , it seems from the outside John McDonnell is more likely than Corbyn to say Stfu.Concentrate on what they need to do to win, from a left wing position.
From personal experience I have come to the conclusion today that the EU is part of the Virgin Media franchise. It has offered good deals in recent years but only to new joiners, those deals being heavily subsidised by existing subscribers who pay through the nose. My past commitment to the company (something not uncommon amongst colleagues on the left, a remarkable number of whom have virgin media/blueyonder etc e-mail addresses) which initially was out of principle (i.e. anything to avoid giving money to Murdoch) has gradually been eroded in the light of experience and I am now prepared to walk away. It cannot get access to (Sky) Atlantic trade deals and has recently seen other longstanding deals pulled by one of its staple markets (UK TV). It is extremely difficult to leave, requiring customers to have several attempts before finally getting through to the relevant department. Even then having determined to Leave, the wait on the phone was such that the process seemed to take years.
The good news is that because Virgin Media (and the EU) knows that despite all its bluster it is basically offering an inferior product and its share of the market is declining, it is secretly prepared to offer a deal when it can tell that customers are not making idle threats to walk away. So having faffed about for years, I did finally start from that premise today. i.e. I am going to leave, I'm not prepared to negotiate with you, I know you get much more value from me than the value you give me in return and what I could get elsewhere. At the 11th hour I was offered a deal out of thin air that undercut even what is on offer to new Sky subscribers.
An object lesson in showing resolve in negotiations, and being prepared to settle for no deal and mean it, in order to get what you want.
I'm not sure your analogy translates well to the scale of national economies, nor pan-European supply chains.
Whatever your view of Brexit, the fact is that our business and institutions have optimised operations over time as the EEC evolved into the EU, and we're proposing to unpick that over a very short timescale. This is doable, but suboptimal.
To borrow an example from my own field, the UK operates on a set of heuristics, whereas the EU is algorithmic. We'd like to cut a deal, because we're used to the cut and thrust of the UK business and political culture, but the EU just isn't particularly wieldy, hence 'computer says no' much of the time.
So what’s the point of leaving with the deal again?
We avoid Crashout Brexit and get controls over Freedom of Movement, at the cost of surrendering control over financial issues.
Seriously, although I am amused at the idea of the EU imposing a Tobin Tax on us post Brexit, it would be a very bad idea to introduce regulatory equivalence between the UK and the EU on terms dictated by the EU. The EU have unfortunately amply demonstrated over the last eleven years that they have no clue what they're doing in fincancial matters and no intention of learning from their very many mistakes. Leaving the City open to their bungling would leave us wide open to contagion the next time there's a banking crisis in the EU - which would almost certainly follow swiftly from Brexit.
If we’re going to have the Chequers Deal, i’d rather have full regulatory freedom and independence for our financial services sector rather than cling ourselves to the regulatory bosom of the EU forevermore to maintain a nominal equivalence.
Wrt to a financial transactions tax, it isn't easy to see how they would force the government to collect a tax it doesn't want to. Tax is outside the scope of the EBA and ESMA, it would have to be imposed separately by all 27 EU nations which means it would be outside of the scope of regulatory equivalence, given that taxes aren't regulations.
It depends what you mean. Once the UK has left then I can’t immediately see how regulatory equivalence would lead to having to participate in levying an FTT so you’d assume that the EU FTT would be applicable to instruments issued in the EU27 and not the UK. But you’d expect it to be collected regardless of where the trading took place (as with the French and Italian FTTs and of course UK SDRT in many cases) - though one of the stumbling blocks with agreeing the FTT in the first place was how to approach the collection and reporting given the differences across various EU markets.
A few years old but this is a good read on the subject.
Comments
I dont believe it
My surname dates back to the Norman-Welsh invasion of Ireland in the 11th century or thereabouts and the small town my father's family comes from has one of the oldest Norman arches in Ireland, which is the subject of the only painting of the town held in the National Gallery in Dublin. Just outside the town is a 14th century cemetery where both my parents are buried. It has a wonderful view across to the Ballyhoura mountains. It's always seemed fitting to me that cemeteries should have good view, somehow.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1024230128086335488
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1024231109507395585
Charity logs 1,382 hate incidents and 34% rise in violent assaults against Jewish people in 2017'
https://tinyurl.com/yb78358d
'Anti-Semitic crime increases in Germany
The number of anti-Semitic crimes in Germany rose by 2.5 percent last year despite an overall drop in politically motivated crimes, statistics showed on Tuesday, reinforcing fears about growing hostility after several high-profile attacks in Berlin.
Interior Minister Horst Seehofer said that 1,504 anti-Semitic offences were reported in 2017, up from 1,468 in 2016, though he said there had been fewer attacks on hostels housing refugees.
"It is not surprising that the so-called 'imported anti-Semitic crimes' are rising - even if at a lower level. But I want to make clear that almost 95 percent of anti-Semitic crimes in 2017 had a right-wing motive," said Mr Seehofer.'
https://tinyurl.com/y9bhepz5
https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1024233598025641984
The parallel being when photographs demonstrated turnout for his inauguration was not, as he claimed, higher than for Obama's, he effectively claimed his supporters were there, just invisible.
DCMS has seen fit to publish a report suggesting our client Darren Grimes is guilty of offences, before his case has been heard by a Court
https://www.saunders.co.uk/news/saunders-law-statement-darren-grimes-update.html
The Electoral Commission can and should be able to fine organisations registered with it and regulated by it. Fining individuals or making statements of criminal responsibility without due process, whoever is involved, is absolutely overstepping the mark.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1024237621210501125
Bless him.
I mean, if the choice was "stop Freedom of Movement" versus "Lose chunks of the City's Financial Sector", what do you think the public would say?
It's a deal that (mostly) complies with the spirit of the Leave vote as we understand it, avoids the worst chaos and damage, and maintains the most important of the red lines. Me, I'd prefer to take an eraser to the red line in question and sign straight up to the EEA, but I fully understand that ain't gonna fly.
Yes, that must surely be the answer.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/our-work/roles-and-responsibilities/our-role-as-regulator-of-political-party-finances/sanctions
It has referred the question of criminal charges relating to other electoral offences to the appropriate authorities.
Mr Grimes's lawyers seem confused between the role of the DCMS and the role of the DCMS select committee. That confusion rather undermines the other, apparently more interesting, points.
In Egypt, many of the urban middle classes, who had campaigned for democracy in 2011, ended up supporting a military coup two years later because they feared the elected Muslim Brotherhood government was turning the country into a theocracy. In Thailand in 2014, a military coup that ended red shirt rule seemed to enjoy considerable support from Bangkok’s middle classes. In Brazil, at the moment, the professional classes of Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro tend to be in favour of the imprisonment on corruption charges of the leftist, former president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, even though he might well win the presidency again, if he were allowed to run later this year.
The west’s metropolitan elites have not yet turned against democracy. But some may harbour doubts. In Britain, many ardent Remainers are eager to overturn Britain’s vote to leave the EU.
https://www.ft.com/content/e05cde76-93d6-11e8-b747-fb1e803ee64e
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1024240181879169025
https://twitter.com/quatremer/status/1024238958232985600
Looking at some of the statements made by public figures in the UK today, I can see how Germany made the transition to fascism in the 1930s and I could easily believe that the UK might have its own version of Kristallnacht in the next decade.
This is the country I grew up in and raised children in and worked in and contributed to and it feels like it is slipping away.
What odds would you put on it ?
Wishful thinking.
My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that there is a right of appeal to the Court against the EC decision. I don't understand the DCMS to have any decision making role in this so I don't really understand the point they are making in that respect either. It seems a bit confused.
It might be "bullsh*t" to you, but maybe you are unaffected by it. To those on the receiving end it will feel anything other than "bullsh*t"
The same could apply to any criticism of The current Israel state on how it treats its citizens of a differing faith.Many could turn a blind eye because of the fear of been labelled as a racist.
The EU negotiating stance towards the future separate UK is an example of the EU's protectionist attitude.
It is no more protectionist than any other trading bloc
Grimes will not get off by seeking someone else to make the decision instead of the Electoral Commission, who are the body appointed to make the decision.
Alas, nationalism is on the rise - "them" or "us"....
However, after British officials clarified that this was not part of the plan and that power to grant access to those markets would remain in the hands of Brussels, Barnier is believed to have climbed down from that position.
It could negatively affect those who absolubtely need a blue badge space (Wheelchair users and the like).
Had it not been so, I’d expect Ireland to still be part of the UK today.
The good news is that because Virgin Media (and the EU) knows that despite all its bluster it is basically offering an inferior product and its share of the market is declining, it is secretly prepared to offer a deal when it can tell that customers are not making idle threats to walk away. So having faffed about for years, I did finally start from that premise today. i.e. I am going to leave, I'm not prepared to negotiate with you, I know you get much more value from me than the value you give me in return and what I could get elsewhere. At the 11th hour I was offered a deal out of thin air that undercut even what is on offer to new Sky subscribers.
An object lesson in showing resolve in negotiations, and being prepared to settle for no deal and mean it, in order to get what you want.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/31/eus-brexit-declaration-could-be-just-four-or-five-pages-long
It's a bit like all those measures within the UK which were once resisted by Westminster civil servants, only to see them proved wrong when implemented elsewhere once the Scots and Welsh got the power to try them out, after which the English belatedly joined in.
https://order-order.com/2018/07/31/two-questions-labour-answer-pete-willsman/
Classic Jezza....he just sits there and shrugs...now if that had been a rant about other minority groups he would have gone nuts.
https://twitter.com/BritMovement/status/1024064351488147456
Whatever your view of Brexit, the fact is that our business and institutions have optimised operations over time as the EEC evolved into the EU, and we're proposing to unpick that over a very short timescale. This is doable, but suboptimal.
To borrow an example from my own field, the UK operates on a set of heuristics, whereas the EU is algorithmic. We'd like to cut a deal, because we're used to the cut and thrust of the UK business and political culture, but the EU just isn't particularly wieldy, hence 'computer says no' much of the time.
A few years old but this is a good read on the subject.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/resources/documents/taxation/other_taxes/financial_sector/ftt_final_report.pdf