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  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    John Bull returns: an insular and aggressive English nationalism with an absurd hostility to anything that smacks of Abroad.

    If I were feeling malicious I could make a comment about SeanT here...
    As a travel writer, Sean obviously has no problems with abroad - so long as it stays there.

    I congratulate you, Nigel. You have a clean mind sir. You assumed I was talking about SeanT's notably ummm, pro-English rants and casting him as John Bull.

    I saw a comment about smacking broads...
    I clearly need to be more aware of your punning traps in the future.

    Still, as this seems to be a humorous thread, I can offer this,.,
    https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-labour-left-left-look-to-corbyn/
    Traditional left-wing parties across Europe are searching for a savior.

    Some believe his name is Jeremy Corbyn.
    Actually read that earlier, thought about copying it here but thought better of it. The problem with copying it is the lack of FPTP and the fact their left rivals have already gained strength (depending which country we are talking about) with PR systems you could imagine they won't have a left wing rebel type within the party. Also as the article mentions the route ahead is to replace themselves within the party, which isn't attractive...

    Aside from that though there are things to be learned from his approach, for some of them they may already be doomed anyway, give it a shot and go out with a bang.

    I'm amused that nobody has yet pointed out that the 30th is a Saturday so a national holiday is not just rather redundant but under the principles of a holiday that falls on a weekend actually observed the following Monday a theoretical Brexit Day Holiday would actually fall on Monday 1 April.

    April Fools Day.

    That's too perfect, we must have this holiday!
    I do admire The Jezziah for his amiability in the face of greater hostility than I get for my similar views! People are sort of used to me here but they pick on Jez more.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:



    As for Uber, I don’t think it’s really in the self-driving race; its expertise is rather on the customer and fleet management side.

    Their expertise seems to be in convincing silicon valley investors to allow them to lose money.
    Their whole business model is predicated on getting self-driving cars working and accepted by the public before their money runs out.

    It’s not going to happen, as anyone who’s ever designed something complex will say 10% of the effort solves 90% of the problem, the other 90% of the effort is required to solve the final 10%. Their cars are still killing pedestrians, they’ve got an awful long way to go.

    Even if the technology gets working, the acceptance of it by all the lawmakers they’ve upset over the years with their taxi service business practices is even further away.
    Cars of all varieties kill pedestrians. I think it's rather unreasonable and unrealistic to have zero tolerance for self driving ones doing so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,589
    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:



    As for Uber, I don’t think it’s really in the self-driving race; its expertise is rather on the customer and fleet management side.

    Their expertise seems to be in convincing silicon valley investors to allow them to lose money.
    Their whole business model is predicated on getting self-driving cars working and accepted by the public before their money runs out.

    It’s not going to happen, as anyone who’s ever designed something complex will say 10% of the effort solves 90% of the problem, the other 90% of the effort is required to solve the final 10%. Their cars are still killing pedestrians, they’ve got an awful long way to go.

    Even if the technology gets working, the acceptance of it by all the lawmakers they’ve upset over the years with their taxi service business practices is even further away.
    Who cares about Uber ? Fact is that their business model is here to stay whatever happens to the company itself.
    As far as self driving is concerned, once it works, the competitive advantage of adopting it will be very clear within a very short time, whatever lawmakers in an given jurisdiction might think of it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    You agree with Mr Luce that stopping Brexit would be a 'hammer blow to western-populist nationalism'?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,776
    OK, pbers, what do you think of this campaign advert?

    https://youtu.be/2BYgM7yWgkY
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.

    Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,557
    I have a much better idea. Since nobody can be sure yet whether leaving the EU is a good idea, let's replace the second bank holiday in May with one in June. On alternate years it can be:

    - 5th June, to commemorate the 1975 referendum
    - 23rd June, to commemorate the 2016 referendum.

    This should please both sides equally, and annoy them equally.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    You agree with Mr Luce that stopping Brexit would be a 'hammer blow to western-populist nationalism'?
    I didn't say that either. I regard the Brexit referendum vote as an unmitigated (and seemingly unmitigable) catastrophe. From here there are no good short term options at present.

    The long term solution is for politicians to stop appeasing populism and start confronting it. But that's a work of years and decades, and a lot of damage is going to be done to Britain first.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    John Bull returns: an insular and aggressive English nationalism with an absurd hostility to anything that smacks of Abroad.

    If I were feeling malicious I could make a comment about SeanT here...
    As a travel writer, Sean obviously has no problems with abroad - so long as it stays there.

    I congratulate you, Nigel. You have a clean mind sir. You assumed I was talking about SeanT's notably ummm, pro-English rants and casting him as John Bull.

    I saw a comment about smacking broads...
    I clearly need to be more aware of your punning traps in the future.

    Still, as this seems to be a humorous thread, I can offer this,.,
    https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-labour-left-left-look-to-corbyn/
    Traditional left-wing parties across Europe are searching for a savior.

    Some believe his name is Jeremy Corbyn.
    Actually read that earlier, thought about copying it here but thought better of it. The problem with copying it is the lack of FPTP and the fact their left rivals have already gained strength (depending which country we are talking about) with PR systems you could imagine they won't have a left wing rebel type within the party. Also as the article mentions the route ahead is to replace themselves within the party, which isn't attractive...

    Aside from that though there are things to be learned from his approach, for some of them they may already be doomed anyway, give it a shot and go out with a bang.

    I'm amused that nobody has yet pointed out that the 30th is a Saturday so a national holiday is not just rather redundant but under the principles of a holiday that falls on a weekend actually observed the following Monday a theoretical Brexit Day Holiday would actually fall on Monday 1 April.

    April Fools Day.

    That's too perfect, we must have this holiday!
    I do admire The Jezziah for his amiability in the face of greater hostility than I get for my similar views! People are sort of used to me here but they pick on Jez more.
    Thank you.

    I do fail to keep as calm and collected as I'd like, passions get away with me and I can't help but bite back. I'm generally quite chirpy, works better in real life where there aren't as many passionate debates and I can wear people down with unbearable pleasantness :)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Britain is a country enacting populism with a government that supports ministers who oppose inconvenient evidence and disciplines ministers who call for evidence-based policy. Not exactly the outstanding victory against populism that Mr Nelson imagines.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 1000, ....

    It's memorable.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:



    As for Uber, I don’t think it’s really in the self-driving race; its expertise is rather on the customer and fleet management side.

    Their expertise seems to be in convincing silicon valley investors to allow them to lose money.
    Their whole business model is predicated on getting self-driving cars working and accepted by the public before their money runs out.

    It’s not going to happen, as anyone who’s ever designed something complex will say 10% of the effort solves 90% of the problem, the other 90% of the effort is required to solve the final 10%. Their cars are still killing pedestrians, they’ve got an awful long way to go.

    Even if the technology gets working, the acceptance of it by all the lawmakers they’ve upset over the years with their taxi service business practices is even further away.
    Cars of all varieties kill pedestrians. I think it's rather unreasonable and unrealistic to have zero tolerance for self driving ones doing so.
    I’ve always said that the barriers to adoption of self driving cars will be legal and regulatory, rather than technological. The estate of the woman killed by the self driving Uber car a couple of months ago sued the company and received unspecified damages. With SD cars, especially those operated by large companies, there’s no such thing as an “accident”, especially not to the lawyers.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited July 2018
    Tory, obvs. (Tragic story, but funny misprint..)

    https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1024205567076847616
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, surely one problem is that such cars will require someone to be awake and capable of driving, ready to take the wheel at a moment's notice in case of a failure?

    That's probably more stressful than straightforward driving, and if you need someone with a licence, awake and attentive, then you might as well have them drive in the first place.

    I wonder if we might see a separate road system for freight develop. Although perhaps large drones would be more viable.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1024200382208253957

    Britain is a country enacting populism with a government that supports ministers who oppose inconvenient evidence and disciplines ministers who call for evidence-based policy. Not exactly the outstanding victory against populism that Mr Nelson imagines.
    I agree. In Britain Populism Nationalism has triumphed and we now all await the fruits of its victory :/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405

    IanB2 said:
    I'd like a referendum, but that's a really thin article. A lot of CLPs might, or might not, submit a resolution. Some unions might be sympathetic. A senior unnamed figure says it'd be a good thing. Etc.
    I shall be trying my best to ensure that our CLP does not submit an anti-Brexit resolution.

    However, I think I have a very slim chance of persuading my comrades to submit a pro-Hard Brexit resolution!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Off-topic: ex-minister Sir Peter Luff on Parkinson's
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-45011067
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,589
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:



    As for Uber, I don’t think it’s really in the self-driving race; its expertise is rather on the customer and fleet management side.

    Their expertise seems to be in convincing silicon valley investors to allow them to lose money.
    Their whole business model is predicated on getting self-driving cars working and accepted by the public before their money runs out.

    It’s not going to happen, as anyone who’s ever designed something complex will say 10% of the effort solves 90% of the problem, the other 90% of the effort is required to solve the final 10%. Their cars are still killing pedestrians, they’ve got an awful long way to go.

    Even if the technology gets working, the acceptance of it by all the lawmakers they’ve upset over the years with their taxi service business practices is even further away.
    Cars of all varieties kill pedestrians. I think it's rather unreasonable and unrealistic to have zero tolerance for self driving ones doing so.
    I’ve always said that the barriers to adoption of self driving cars will be legal and regulatory, rather than technological. The estate of the woman killed by the self driving Uber car a couple of months ago sued the company and received unspecified damages. With SD cars, especially those operated by large companies, there’s no such thing as an “accident”, especially not to the lawyers.
    Of course - but if accident rates are significantly below those for human piloted cars, then it's just a matter for the insurance companies.
    Of course it might mean slower adoption in more litigious jurisdictions (the US...), but again, it will come down to competitive advantage.

    Probably become adopted first somewhere like Singapore.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    You agree with Mr Luce that stopping Brexit would be a 'hammer blow to western-populist nationalism'?
    I regard the Brexit referendum vote as an unmitigated (and seemingly unmitigable) catastrophe. .
    Which in your view is least damaging, continuing with Brexit, in what ever form it takes, or stopping it?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    rcs1000 said:

    OK, pbers, what do you think of this campaign advert?

    youtu.be/2BYgM7yWgkY

    Is it a spoof?

    Unbelievable.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340


    Thank you.

    I do fail to keep as calm and collected as I'd like, passions get away with me and I can't help but bite back. I'm generally quite chirpy, works better in real life where there aren't as many passionate debates and I can wear people down with unbearable pleasantness :)

    I'm afraid I wrote you off as a party hack when you manfully tried to claim that Labour setting its own anti-Semitism policy was neither telling Jews what anti-Semitism was nor telling them that some of what they thought was anti-Semitism didn't matter. I didn't see anything last night in your llatest foray into ogic-chopping to change my mind.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,557



    The long term solution is for politicians to stop appeasing populism and start confronting it. But that's a work of years and decades, and a lot of damage is going to be done to Britain first.

    Confrontations are all very well in theory, but what if your side loses?

    Politicians "confronting" populism simply adds fuel to the anti-elitist fires. A sensible response to populism, as with any new political movement such as the Greens in the 90s, involves stealing the least damaging of their ideas (like ozone chemical regulation), or the unstoppable ones (such as an EU referendum), and highlighting the more damaging ones (such . A mixture of concession and confrontation draws the sting much better.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,589

    Britain is a country enacting populism with a government that supports ministers who oppose inconvenient evidence and disciplines ministers who call for evidence-based policy. Not exactly the outstanding victory against populism that Mr Nelson imagines.
    if you look at the government's standing in the polls, then not exactly a victory for populism, either.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    rcs1000 said:

    OK, pbers, what do you think of this campaign advert?

    I wish it was about policy and it was about policy because people cared more about policy. I wish it was not about the politicians family.

    They are crazy unrealistic expectations though. It is mostly quite cute and nice, aside from build that wall it isn't really controversial and if you want the wall then it isn't at all. I assume he needs Trump fans to turn out so bringing up the wall seems like a smart play, remember watching a video on Richard Spencer and the wall was what the whole crowd shouted for. Can see it going down quite well in the right place.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    rcs1000 said:

    OK, pbers, what do you think of this campaign advert?

    youtu.be/2BYgM7yWgkY

    Is it a spoof?

    Unbelievable.
    Got to be a spoof. Surely!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:
    The irony is the parts on e-voting and online meetings could have been written 20 years ago by New Labour or 30 years ago by Neil Kinnock to liberate CLPs from trots droning on till everyone else left through boredom.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,776
    edited July 2018
    How is Corbyn's Labour any less populist than Syria or Podemos?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    rcs1000 said:

    How is Corbyn's Labour any less populist than Syria or Podemos?
    Mr Smithson, I am probably Corbyn's most trenchant critic, but even I would not compare him to Assad.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Mr. Sandpit, surely one problem is that such cars will require someone to be awake and capable of driving, ready to take the wheel at a moment's notice in case of a failure?

    That's probably more stressful than straightforward driving, and if you need someone with a licence, awake and attentive, then you might as well have them drive in the first place.

    I wonder if we might see a separate road system for freight develop. Although perhaps large drones would be more viable.

    Yes, nearly-autonomous cars (pretty much where we are now) are absolutely the worst of all worlds, humans just aren’t wired to be able to concentrate hard while doing nothing for hours at a time. Scientists reckon about 20 minutes longest we can concentrate and be expected to react within a second or so, it’s way more tiring than driving the car yourself.

    The business case for SD cars has them dropping you at work, returning empty to the house to pick up your kids and take them to school, working as a taxi for a few hours, picking the kids up from school again later, then returning to your office to take you to dinner and finally driving you home after a few glasses of wine. If it can’t work like that it’s useless.

    The tipping point will come when some socialist mayor bans normal cars completely from his city, and redesigns all the roads and interchanges to work only with SD cars.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,776

    Mr. 1000, ....

    It's memorable.

    I've tried reading The Art of the Deal to my son, but now he's demanding to go to boarding school
    He's 8.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840


    Thank you.

    I do fail to keep as calm and collected as I'd like, passions get away with me and I can't help but bite back. I'm generally quite chirpy, works better in real life where there aren't as many passionate debates and I can wear people down with unbearable pleasantness :)

    I'm afraid I wrote you off as a party hack when you manfully tried to claim that Labour setting its own anti-Semitism policy was neither telling Jews what anti-Semitism was nor telling them that some of what they thought was anti-Semitism didn't matter. I didn't see anything last night in your llatest foray into ogic-chopping to change my mind.
    I'm getting some negative vibes but the main message I'm getting is your mind is open to changing.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    You agree with Mr Luce that stopping Brexit would be a 'hammer blow to western-populist nationalism'?
    I regard the Brexit referendum vote as an unmitigated (and seemingly unmitigable) catastrophe. .
    Which in your view is least damaging, continuing with Brexit, in what ever form it takes, or stopping it?
    Different damage, so people will fairly rank them differently.

    To answer your question would really need a thread header. Here's an edited version.

    Hardline Leavers have walked into an enormous trap (as they always were going to), gifting continuity Remainers first a strong argument that a fresh referendum should be held (if this isn't the Brexit Leavers were expecting, everyone is entitled to a fresh look at this) and secondly, on the assumption a fresh referendum isn't held, the argument that the British public were never given the opportunity to give their informed consent on a settlement that no one expected at the time of the original referendum.

    So Britain looks set to have two stab-in-the-back myths - a Leaver myth based around the eventual deal with the EU being a betrayal of Brexit and a Remainer myth based around the lack of informed consent for the final deal at a time when the public were opposed to Leaving on these terms. This looks highly unstable. No matter how much politicians want to put Brexit behind them, both sides are going to be blaming Brexit for every woe. Britain will not prosper for decades until the culture war is fought and won by one side.

    IF (huge IF) public opinion swings further to Remain, I think a fresh referendum would be the least damaging way forward, though it would undoubtedly infuriate and alienate the hardcore Leavers. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the culture war beckons. A fresh referendum can only be justified if the public mood has changed significantly. But the evidence is so far that it hasn't.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 1000, obviously upset you aren't reading Livy to him instead.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    rcs1000 said:

    How is Corbyn's Labour any less populist than Syria or Podemos?
    It's not very popular....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    You agree with Mr Luce that stopping Brexit would be a 'hammer blow to western-populist nationalism'?
    I regard the Brexit referendum vote as an unmitigated (and seemingly unmitigable) catastrophe. .
    Which in your view is least damaging, continuing with Brexit, in what ever form it takes, or stopping it?
    Different damage, so people will fairly rank them differently.

    To answer your question would really need a thread header. Here's an edited version.

    Hardline Leavers have walked into an enormous trap (as they always were going to), gifting continuity Remainers first a strong argument that a fresh referendum should be held (if this isn't the Brexit Leavers were expecting, everyone is entitled to a fresh look at this) and secondly, on the assumption a fresh referendum isn't held, the argument that the British public were never given the opportunity to give their informed consent on a settlement that no one expected at the time of the original referendum.

    So Britain looks set to have two stab-in-the-back myths - a Leaver myth based around the eventual deal with the EU being a betrayal of Brexit and a Remainer myth based around the lack of informed consent for the final deal at a time when the public were opposed to Leaving on these terms. This looks highly unstable. No matter how much politicians want to put Brexit behind them, both sides are going to be blaming Brexit for every woe. Britain will not prosper for decades until the culture war is fought and won by one side.

    IF (huge IF) public opinion swings further to Remain, I think a fresh referendum would be the least damaging way forward, though it would undoubtedly infuriate and alienate the hardcore Leavers. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the culture war beckons. A fresh referendum can only be justified if the public mood has changed significantly. But the evidence is so far that it hasn't.
    I presume you’d like the culture war to be “won” by the Remain side?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Yeah the problem with these populism things is everyone argues about what populism is now, apart from the parties and ideas that don't get anywhere. We've had both the current government and the opposition called out as populists so far.

    I can't help but feel everyone is murdering the definition even if they might have half a point.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    John Bull returns: an insular and aggressive English nationalism with an absurd hostility to anything that smacks of Abroad.

    If I were feeling malicious I could make a comment about SeanT here...
    As a travel writer, Sean obviously has no problems with abroad - so long as it stays there.

    I congratulate you, Nigel. You have a clean mind sir. You assumed I was talking about SeanT's notably ummm, pro-English rants and casting him as John Bull.

    I saw a comment about smacking broads...
    I clearly need to be more aware of your punning traps in the future.

    Still, as this seems to be a humorous thread, I can offer this,.,
    https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-labour-left-left-look-to-corbyn/
    Traditional left-wing parties across Europe are searching for a savior.

    Some believe his name is Jeremy Corbyn.
    Actually read that earlier, thought about copying it here but thought better of it. The problem with copying it is the lack of FPTP and the fact their left rivals have already gained strength (depending which country we are talking about) with PR systems you could imagine they won't have a left wing rebel type within the party. Also as the article mentions the route ahead is to replace themselves within the party, which isn't attractive...

    Aside from that though there are things to be learned from his approach, for some of them they may already be doomed anyway, give it a shot and go out with a bang.

    I'm amused that nobody has yet pointed out that the 30th is a Saturday so a national holiday is not just rather redundant but under the principles of a holiday that falls on a weekend actually observed the following Monday a theoretical Brexit Day Holiday would actually fall on Monday 1 April.

    April Fools Day.

    That's too perfect, we must have this holiday!
    I do admire The Jezziah for his amiability in the face of greater hostility than I get for my similar views! People are sort of used to me here but they pick on Jez more.
    Thank you.

    I do fail to keep as calm and collected as I'd like, passions get away with me and I can't help but bite back. I'm generally quite chirpy, works better in real life where there aren't as many passionate debates and I can wear people down with unbearable pleasantness :)
    I do sympathise, them four-by-twos is enough to get up anyone's nose.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340


    Thank you.

    I do fail to keep as calm and collected as I'd like, passions get away with me and I can't help but bite back. I'm generally quite chirpy, works better in real life where there aren't as many passionate debates and I can wear people down with unbearable pleasantness :)

    I'm afraid I wrote you off as a party hack when you manfully tried to claim that Labour setting its own anti-Semitism policy was neither telling Jews what anti-Semitism was nor telling them that some of what they thought was anti-Semitism didn't matter. I didn't see anything last night in your llatest foray into ogic-chopping to change my mind.
    I'm getting some negative vibes but the main message I'm getting is your mind is open to changing.
    My mind is always open to changing. However, that requires some credible arguments put forward in good faith by someone who themselves is willing to acknowledge the weaknesses in their own arguments.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. 1000, ....

    It's memorable.

    I've tried reading The Art of the Deal to my son, but now he's demanding to go to boarding school
    He's 8.
    Download the audio book onto his phone.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,589
    rcs1000 said:

    OK, pbers, what do you think of this campaign advert?

    https://youtu.be/2BYgM7yWgkY

    I'm confused - is he running against Trump for biggest horse's ass ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    You agree with Mr Luce that stopping Brexit would be a 'hammer blow to western-populist nationalism'?
    I regard the Brexit referendum vote as an unmitigated (and seemingly unmitigable) catastrophe. .
    Which in your view is least damaging, continuing with Brexit, in what ever form it takes, or stopping it?
    Britain will not prosper for decades until the culture war is fought and won by one side.
    Can culture wars ever truly be "won"? Look at Roe vs Wade.....

    Opinions shift over time (recall the huge fuss over same-sex marriage, now largely unremarkable) - but I think (one of the) reasons Remain lost was they tried an economic argument with voters who were worried about different things. And they're still doing it. Until this 'dialogue of the deaf' moves on, neither side will make progress. And I fear by running 'Project Fear 2' Remain are burning future credibility. A lot could go wrong, but most likely, very little will. By only pointing out the downsides to Britain, and ignoring the downsides to Europe (which may provide some perspective on how likely things are to happen) they could end up appearing hysterical propagandists.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Chris Williamson endearing himself again...

    https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1024210253389484037?s=19
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited July 2018
    Somewhat off-topic:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/28/europe/julian-assange-ecuador-embassy-intl/index.html

    It now seems likely Assange will have to surrender himself to the police.

    Now there are a number of ironies to this situation. First, he has actually spent longer trying to avoid an investigation with an unknown outcome than he would have done if tried, convicted and sentenced in Sweden. Second, he has lived under conditions probably worse than that of a Swedish prison, with less light, exercise and limited food - and has had to do it at his own expense.

    But the third and most delicious of ironies is that by spending this time hiding in an exclave surrounded by British security, he appears to have brought about the situation he claimed to be trying to avoid. If he had been extradited to Sweden over sexual assault allegations, he would have been safe from onward extradition to the US. Not only would the alleged offences he has committed under US Law not be covered by their extradition with Sweden, but Britain would have had to consent for his further onward movement.

    At this stage he probably won't be extradited to Sweden because the statute of limitations on all but one of the complaints he was to be questioned about have expired. But the US department of Justice has had a hardening of attitudes against him, and appears to have a sealed indictment ready to go against him. And unbelievably, it's not actually that difficult to extradite him from Britain on these charges, we are clearly covered by our treaty of 2003 (which is why his conspiracy theory claims were clearly nonsensical from the start).

    Of course, Trump may elect to pardon him, which would be a punchline par excellence. But I'm just enjoying the way his own actions have given him more jail time than he needs and probably brought about the thing he claimed he was trying to avoid.

    As the saying goes - karma's only a bitch if you are.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited July 2018


    Different damage, so people will fairly rank them differently.

    To answer your question would really need a thread header. Here's an edited version.

    Hardline Leavers have walked into an enormous trap (as they always were going to), gifting continuity Remainers first a strong argument that a fresh referendum should be held (if this isn't the Brexit Leavers were expecting, everyone is entitled to a fresh look at this) and secondly, on the assumption a fresh referendum isn't held, the argument that the British public were never given the opportunity to give their informed consent on a settlement that no one expected at the time of the original referendum.

    So Britain looks set to have two stab-in-the-back myths - a Leaver myth based around the eventual deal with the EU being a betrayal of Brexit and a Remainer myth based around the lack of informed consent for the final deal at a time when the public were opposed to Leaving on these terms. This looks highly unstable. No matter how much politicians want to put Brexit behind them, both sides are going to be blaming Brexit for every woe. Britain will not prosper for decades until the culture war is fought and won by one side.

    IF (huge IF) public opinion swings further to Remain, I think a fresh referendum would be the least damaging way forward, though it would undoubtedly infuriate and alienate the hardcore Leavers. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the culture war beckons. A fresh referendum can only be justified if the public mood has changed significantly. But the evidence is so far that it hasn't.

    I presume you’d like the culture war to be “won” by the Remain side?
    I'd rather it wasn't fought. More would be lost than would be gained, however it ended.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    And further off-topic, but if anyone wants another extraordinary story:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-30/cricket-australia-sacks-staffer-over-abortion-tweets/10051972

    This is quite a good summary of the daftness of it:

    https://twitter.com/GeoffLemonSport/status/1023801224158560256?s=20
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    ydoethur said:

    Somewhat off-topic:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/28/europe/julian-assange-ecuador-embassy-intl/index.html

    It now seems likely Assange will have to surrender himself to the police.

    Now there are a number of ironies to this situation. First, he has actually spent longer trying to avoid an investigation with an unknown outcome than he would have done if tried, convicted and sentenced in Sweden. Second, he has lived under conditions probably worse than that of a Swedish prison, with less light, exercise and limited food - and has had to do it at his own expense.

    But the third and most delicious of ironies is that by spending this time hiding in an exclave surrounded by British security, he appears to have brought about the situation he claimed to be trying to avoid. If he had been extradited to Sweden over sexual assault allegations, he would have been safe from onward extradition to the US. Not only would the alleged offences he has committed under US Law not be covered by their extradition with Sweden, but Britain would have had to consent for his further onward movement.

    At this stage he probably won't be extradited to Sweden because the statute of limitations on all but one of the complaints he was to be questioned about have expired. But the US department of Justice has had a hardening of attitudes against him, and appears to have a sealed indictment ready to go against him. And unbelievably, it's not actually that difficult to extradite him from Britain on these charges, we are clearly covered by our treaty of 2003 (which is why his conspiracy theory claims were clearly nonsensical from the start).

    Of course, Trump may elect to pardon him, which would be a punchline par excellence. But I'm just enjoying the way his own actions have given him more jail time than he needs and probably brought about the thing he claimed he was trying to avoid.

    Also remember to smile while thinking of the London Luvvies who wrote cheques totalling £200k for his bail, so they went some way towards the cost of keeping the policemen in the street outside the embassy.

    He still faces charges in Britain relating to failing to surrender and wasting police time, he could well end up in our own big house for a bit.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. 1000, ....

    It's memorable.

    I've tried reading The Art of the Deal to my son, but now he's demanding to go to boarding school
    He's 8.
    He has great taste in shirts too.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited July 2018
    Fun thread - Thanks Corporeal. :)

    I suspect by the morning of 30th March 2019 the campaign to REJOIN will be in full swing.

    #neverendum
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,589
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mr. 1000, ....

    It's memorable.

    I've tried reading The Art of the Deal to my son, but now he's demanding to go to boarding school
    He's 8.
    He has great taste in shirts too.
    All the best shirts.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Cyclefree said:

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
    And we will see more scenes like this:
    https://youtu.be/QFdt8sB8PzA
    (45 seconds in, although all of it is quite good.)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038


    Different damage, so people will fairly rank them differently.

    To answer your question would really need a thread header. Here's an edited version.

    Hardline Leavers have walked into an enormous trap (as they always were going to), gifting continuity Remainers first a strong argument that a fresh referendum should be held (if this isn't the Brexit Leavers were expecting, everyone is entitled to a fresh look at this) and secondly, on the assumption a fresh referendum isn't held, the argument that the British public were never given the opportunity to give their informed consent on a settlement that no one expected at the time of the original referendum.

    So Britain looks set to have two stab-in-the-back myths - a Leaver myth based around the eventual deal with the EU being a betrayal of Brexit and a Remainer myth based around the lack of informed consent for the final deal at a time when the public were opposed to Leaving on these terms. This looks highly unstable. No matter how much politicians want to put Brexit behind them, both sides are going to be blaming Brexit for every woe. Britain will not prosper for decades until the culture war is fought and won by one side.

    IF (huge IF) public opinion swings further to Remain, I think a fresh referendum would be the least damaging way forward, though it would undoubtedly infuriate and alienate the hardcore Leavers. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the culture war beckons. A fresh referendum can only be justified if the public mood has changed significantly. But the evidence is so far that it hasn't.

    I presume you’d like the culture war to be “won” by the Remain side?
    I'd rather it wasn't fought. More would be lost than would be gained, however it ended.
    I agree.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    O/T, but as mentioned yesterday. John Oliver spoof Facebook apology ad. The best satire is that with more of a grain of truth about it.
    (NSFW language so truncated link)
    youtube.com/watch?v=8ROdly-iIYQ
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
    And we will see more scenes like this:
    https://youtu.be/QFdt8sB8PzA
    (45 seconds in, although all of it is quite good.)
    It's utterly bonkers. Surely the point of a manifesto is that it's considered in its entirity, and like any (proper) budgeted schedule of work balances what you want with the resources you have. How the f*** can you produce a tax budget on that basis

    It'll just turn into a huge shopping list of vested interests. Mark me down for Owls for all...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    Yeah the problem with these populism things is everyone argues about what populism is now, apart from the parties and ideas that don't get anywhere. We've had both the current government and the opposition called out as populists so far.

    I can't help but feel everyone is murdering the definition even if they might have half a point.

    If populism is defined as popular simplistic solutions that don’t measure up to reality, then the answer is for centrist mainstream parties to provide better more convincing answers, not no answers.

    For example, on the most totemic example of immigration, I haven’t heard a single centrist politician come up with any answer other than to extol the benefits of immigration more effectively. To a voter concerned about immigration this just sounds like they’re not listening, and don’t get it.

    So, I say again, where are the centrist politicians providing answers? And, if there are no answers or alternatives (which there always are) explaining why and what they are going to do instead?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.

    Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
    I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.

    Also, minorities, such as Jews, are already being targeted. See the extraordinary statement by one poster here about their “long term future” and other public figures saying that it is their fault that they are being picked on by Labour. I feel that Labour has already crossed a line of decency into behaviour and attitudes which are reminiscent of 1930’s Fascist or Nazi parties. Even worse, if possible, is that so many people are trying their hardest to ignore this or justify it. I am afraid that I do not admire such people, however calm they are. They are, in the words of MPs commenting on the aid scandal, guilty of “complacency verging on complicity”.

    Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    rkrkrk said:

    Uber halts development of self-driving trucks:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45015893

    Not quite the future yet then...

    SeanT will be disappointed.

    And in other AI news:
    "IBM Watson Recommends Unsafe Cancer Treatments"
    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/274453-ibm-watson-recommends-unsafe-cancer-treatments
    extremely one sided article
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited July 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
    It must be a killer that some lowlife like me can play a part in forming what could be the next government's manifesto... all this democracy stuff seems a bit overrated now the millennials are taking an interest, they don't know what's good for them!

    Edit: Ban shoes!

    I shall have my revenge!
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547


    Different damage, so people will fairly rank them differently.

    To answer your question would really need a thread header. Here's an edited version.

    Hardline Leavers have walked into an enormous trap (as they always were going to), gifting continuity Remainers first a strong argument that a fresh referendum should be held (if this isn't the Brexit Leavers were expecting, everyone is entitled to a fresh look at this) and secondly, on the assumption a fresh referendum isn't held, the argument that the British public were never given the opportunity to give their informed consent on a settlement that no one expected at the time of the original referendum.

    So Britain looks set to have two stab-in-the-back myths - a Leaver myth based around the eventual deal with the EU being a betrayal of Brexit and a Remainer myth based around the lack of informed consent for the final deal at a time when the public were opposed to Leaving on these terms. This looks highly unstable. No matter how much politicians want to put Brexit behind them, both sides are going to be blaming Brexit for every woe. Britain will not prosper for decades until the culture war is fought and won by one side.

    IF (huge IF) public opinion swings further to Remain, I think a fresh referendum would be the least damaging way forward, though it would undoubtedly infuriate and alienate the hardcore Leavers. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the culture war beckons. A fresh referendum can only be justified if the public mood has changed significantly. But the evidence is so far that it hasn't.

    Agreed. But I think the mood is shifting and there's a fair chance that the shift will continue such that a fresh referendum becomes an option before Brexit takes effect. The antics of the cliff edge leavers and the manifest uselessness of the government is undermining support for leaving.

    There is also the possibility that the predictions of Armageddon as we approach next March will turn out to be correct. There has been much talk of how the remain campaign cried wolf far too often when no wolf was in evidence but the wolf fable ends with the boy being devoured because there had been so many false alarms no one believed him when a wolf really appeared. At the moment warnings of food shortages etc are easy to dismiss as project fear but if they seem to be becoming reality early next year public opinion could easily move quickly and decisively against Brexit.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Very poor growth stats coming out of the Eurozone.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Yeah the problem with these populism things is everyone argues about what populism is now, apart from the parties and ideas that don't get anywhere. We've had both the current government and the opposition called out as populists so far.

    I can't help but feel everyone is murdering the definition even if they might have half a point.

    If populism is defined as popular simplistic solutions that don’t measure up to reality, then the answer is for centrist mainstream parties to provide better more convincing answers, not no answers.

    For example, on the most totemic example of immigration, I haven’t heard a single centrist politician come up with any answer other than to extol the benefits of immigration more effectively. To a voter concerned about immigration this just sounds like they’re not listening, and don’t get it.

    So, I say again, where are the centrist politicians providing answers? And, if there are no answers or alternatives (which there always are) explaining why and what they are going to do instead?
    What if there is no answer? Some problems don't have answers and we have to adjust what we want.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
    And we will see more scenes like this:
    https://youtu.be/QFdt8sB8PzA
    (45 seconds in, although all of it is quite good.)
    It's utterly bonkers. Surely the point of a manifesto is that it's considered in its entirity, and like any (proper) budgeted schedule of work balances what you want with the resources you have. How the f*** can you produce a tax budget on that basis

    It'll just turn into a huge shopping list of vested interests. Mark me down for Owls for all...
    You mean, like the last Labour and indeed Conservative manifestos?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Cyclefree said:

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
    It must be a killer that some lowlife like me can play a part in forming what could be the next government's manifesto... all this democracy stuff seems a bit overrated now the millennials are taking an interest, they don't know what's good for them!

    Edit: Ban shoes!

    I shall have my revenge!
    You're a Millenial?

    I'll admit that does surprise me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.

    Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
    I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.

    Also, minorities, such as Jews, are already being targeted. See the extraordinary statement by one poster here about their “long term future” and other public figures saying that it is their fault that they are being picked on by Labour. I feel that Labour has already crossed a line of decency into behaviour and attitudes which are reminiscent of 1930’s Fascist or Nazi parties. Even worse, if possible, is that so many people are trying their hardest to ignore this or justify it. I am afraid that I do not admire such people, however calm they are. They are, in the words of MPs commenting on the aid scandal, guilty of “complacency verging on complicity”.

    Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
    One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
    It must be a killer that some lowlife like me can play a part in forming what could be the next government's manifesto... all this democracy stuff seems a bit overrated now the millennials are taking an interest, they don't know what's good for them!

    Edit: Ban shoes!

    I shall have my revenge!
    You're a Millenial?

    I'll admit that does surprise me.
    In fairness “Back to the Seventies” does have more appeal for people who didn’t actually live through them.....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684


    Different damage, so people will fairly rank them differently.

    To answer your question would really need a thread header. Here's an edited version.

    Hardline Leavers have walked into an enormous trap (as they always were going to), gifting continuity Remainers first a strong argument that a fresh referendum should be held (if this isn't the Brexit Leavers were expecting, everyone is entitled to a fresh look at this) and secondly, on the assumption a fresh referendum isn't held, the argument that the British public were never given the opportunity to give their informed consent on a settlement that no one expected at the time of the original referendum.

    So Britain looks set to have two stab-in-the-back myths - a Leaver myth based around the eventual deal with the EU being a betrayal of Brexit and a Remainer myth based around the lack of informed consent for the final deal at a time when the public were opposed to Leaving on these terms. This looks highly unstable. No matter how much politicians want to put Brexit behind them, both sides are going to be blaming Brexit for every woe. Britain will not prosper for decades until the culture war is fought and won by one side.

    IF (huge IF) public opinion swings further to Remain, I think a fresh referendum would be the least damaging way forward, though it would undoubtedly infuriate and alienate the hardcore Leavers. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the culture war beckons. A fresh referendum can only be justified if the public mood has changed significantly. But the evidence is so far that it hasn't.

    Agreed. But I think the mood is shifting and there's a fair chance that the shift will continue such that a fresh referendum becomes an option before Brexit takes effect. The antics of the cliff edge leavers and the manifest uselessness of the government is undermining support for leaving.

    There is also the possibility that the predictions of Armageddon as we approach next March will turn out to be correct. There has been much talk of how the remain campaign cried wolf far too often when no wolf was in evidence but the wolf fable ends with the boy being devoured because there had been so many false alarms no one believed him when a wolf really appeared. At the moment warnings of food shortages etc are easy to dismiss as project fear but if they seem to be becoming reality early next year public opinion could easily move quickly and decisively against Brexit.
    LOL, let the plebs eat cake.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    He was a good actor.

    Apart possibly from that very strange Hungarian accent in Smiley's People.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
    It must be a killer that some lowlife like me can play a part in forming what could be the next government's manifesto... all this democracy stuff seems a bit overrated now the millennials are taking an interest, they don't know what's good for them!

    Edit: Ban shoes!

    I shall have my revenge!
    I’ve no idea whether you are a low life or not. It’s your ignorance and prejudice that bother me not your class status or age.

    The issue with excluding MPs is that we live in a Parliamentary democracy and MPs represent their consituents not just those who voted for them. Excluding them from creation of the manifesto creates obvious problems. But there again if your Party leadership is essentially Marxist and does not much care for Parliamentary democracy then one can see why they would not be bothered by this.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Jonathan said:

    Yeah the problem with these populism things is everyone argues about what populism is now, apart from the parties and ideas that don't get anywhere. We've had both the current government and the opposition called out as populists so far.

    I can't help but feel everyone is murdering the definition even if they might have half a point.

    If populism is defined as popular simplistic solutions that don’t measure up to reality, then the answer is for centrist mainstream parties to provide better more convincing answers, not no answers.

    For example, on the most totemic example of immigration, I haven’t heard a single centrist politician come up with any answer other than to extol the benefits of immigration more effectively. To a voter concerned about immigration this just sounds like they’re not listening, and don’t get it.

    So, I say again, where are the centrist politicians providing answers? And, if there are no answers or alternatives (which there always are) explaining why and what they are going to do instead?
    What if there is no answer? Some problems don't have answers and we have to adjust what we want.
    If there is no alternative but for the UK to accommodate very high net immigration for the foreseeable future (such being the needs of a services driven economy) then it might fly if the public has confidence in the numbers and system being used by the Government to manage it, provided the Government explains what other actions it will take to mitigate its effects.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    malcolmg said:


    Different damage, so people will fairly rank them differently.

    To answer your question would really need a thread header. Here's an edited version.

    Hardline Leavers have walked into an enormous trap (as they always were going to), gifting continuity Remainers first a strong argument that a fresh referendum should be held (if this isn't the Brexit Leavers were expecting, everyone is entitled to a fresh look at this) and secondly, on the assumption a fresh referendum isn't held, the argument that the British public were never given the opportunity to give their informed consent on a settlement that no one expected at the time of the original referendum.

    So Britain looks set to have two stab-in-the-back myths - a Leaver myth based around the eventual deal with the EU being a betrayal of Brexit and a Remainer myth based around the lack of informed consent for the final deal at a time when the public were opposed to Leaving on these terms. This looks highly unstable. No matter how much politicians want to put Brexit behind them, both sides are going to be blaming Brexit for every woe. Britain will not prosper for decades until the culture war is fought and won by one side.

    IF (huge IF) public opinion swings further to Remain, I think a fresh referendum would be the least damaging way forward, though it would undoubtedly infuriate and alienate the hardcore Leavers. If it doesn't, I'm afraid the culture war beckons. A fresh referendum can only be justified if the public mood has changed significantly. But the evidence is so far that it hasn't.

    Agreed. But I think the mood is shifting and there's a fair chance that the shift will continue such that a fresh referendum becomes an option before Brexit takes effect. The antics of the cliff edge leavers and the manifest uselessness of the government is undermining support for leaving.

    There is also the possibility that the predictions of Armageddon as we approach next March will turn out to be correct. There has been much talk of how the remain campaign cried wolf far too often when no wolf was in evidence but the wolf fable ends with the boy being devoured because there had been so many false alarms no one believed him when a wolf really appeared. At the moment warnings of food shortages etc are easy to dismiss as project fear but if they seem to be becoming reality early next year public opinion could easily move quickly and decisively against Brexit.
    LOL, let the plebs eat cake.
    Don't you mean, let there be a plebiscite on having cake or eating it?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Yeah the problem with these populism things is everyone argues about what populism is now, apart from the parties and ideas that don't get anywhere. We've had both the current government and the opposition called out as populists so far.

    I can't help but feel everyone is murdering the definition even if they might have half a point.

    If populism is defined as popular simplistic solutions that don’t measure up to reality, then the answer is for centrist mainstream parties to provide better more convincing answers, not no answers.

    For example, on the most totemic example of immigration, I haven’t heard a single centrist politician come up with any answer other than to extol the benefits of immigration more effectively. To a voter concerned about immigration this just sounds like they’re not listening, and don’t get it.

    So, I say again, where are the centrist politicians providing answers? And, if there are no answers or alternatives (which there always are) explaining why and what they are going to do instead?
    Whilst I have some pity (very small) for their position they really don't help themselves, it seems to come down quite simply to oppose Brexit oppose Corbyn, which is a really passionate cause for some but you are actually taking out two quite decent sections of the voting public.

    The majority of the time when I do hear something, generally related to complaining about one or of the two main parties the new centrist party they envisage usually just consists of labels and empty words (aspiration and progressive) outside of oppose Corbyn and Brexit because they aren't many people to start with and as soon as they start talking policy they lose some of those that would be there.

    I'm not sure there is actually a strategy for them that would work, we shall eventually find out if constant sniping and anger achieves results, my money is on no.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Luke Akehurst - 'don't quit':

    "Setting up an SDP re-enactment society" is not the answer.

    "This is the fight of our political lives, saving Labour and restoring it to decency is the most important thing any of us can do for our country’s future. You don’t quit at the start of that kind of fight. You don’t stop until you have won."

    https://labourlist.org/2018/07/luke-akehurst-thinking-of-leaving-labour-heres-why-you-should-stay-and-fight/



  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.

    Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
    I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.

    Also, minorities, such as Jews, are already being targeted. See the extraordinary statement by one poster here about their “long term future” and other public figures saying that it is their fault that they are being picked on by Labour. I feel that Labour has already crossed a line of decency into behaviour and attitudes which are reminiscent of 1930’s Fascist or Nazi parties. Even worse, if possible, is that so many people are trying their hardest to ignore this or justify it. I am afraid that I do not admire such people, however calm they are. They are, in the words of MPs commenting on the aid scandal, guilty of “complacency verging on complicity”.

    Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
    One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
    A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)

    People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.

    In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    ydoethur said:

    He was a good actor.

    Apart possibly from that very strange Hungarian accent in Smiley's People.
    I absolutely loved Secret Army - in which he truly shone - still watch it when it appears on repeat channels!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Being charitable to some on the hard left, the problem that they are failing to deal with is not anti-Semitism but antinomianism. Because they believe that "to the pure, all things are pure", they cannot imagine that the words and actions of those they see as friends can be open to criticism even if by conventional standards they are beyond the pale.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Luke Akehurst - 'don't quit':

    "Setting up an SDP re-enactment society" is not the answer.

    "This is the fight of our political lives, saving Labour and restoring it to decency is the most important thing any of us can do for our country’s future. You don’t quit at the start of that kind of fight. You don’t stop until you have won."

    https://labourlist.org/2018/07/luke-akehurst-thinking-of-leaving-labour-heres-why-you-should-stay-and-fight/

    The comments under the article illustrate why he is wrong
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Shrewd observation by Professor Awan-Scully:

    https://twitter.com/roger_scully/status/1024225257434046464

    Though more accurately, it's both.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,235
    We're still in Brexit limbo at the moment. Let's see how Brexit materializes before we congratulate ourselves too much. If it's softish then the populists will attempt to feed off the betrayal narrative; if it's hard, then off the likely ensuing economic downturn. Whether they succeed will determine our status as international good eggs.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.

    Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
    I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.

    Also, minorities, such as Jews, are already being targeted. See the extraordinary statement by one poster here about their “long term future” and other public figures saying that it is their fault that they are being picked on by Labour. I feel that Labour has already crossed a line of decency into behaviour and attitudes which are reminiscent of 1930’s Fascist or Nazi parties. Even worse, if possible, is that so many people are trying their hardest to ignore this or justify it. I am afraid that I do not admire such people, however calm they are. They are, in the words of MPs commenting on the aid scandal, guilty of “complacency verging on complicity”.

    Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
    One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
    A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)

    People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.

    In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
    Given the number of antisemitic assaults (not just insults) in Germany this year, your friend might want to rethink her choice.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.

    Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
    I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.

    Also, minorities, such as Jews, are already being targeted. See the extraordinary statement by one poster here about their “long term future” and other public figures saying that it is their fault that they are being picked on by Labour. I feel that Labour has already crossed a line of decency into behaviour and attitudes which are reminiscent of 1930’s Fascist or Nazi parties. Even worse, if possible, is that so many people are trying their hardest to ignore this or justify it. I am afraid that I do not admire such people, however calm they are. They are, in the words of MPs commenting on the aid scandal, guilty of “complacency verging on complicity”.

    Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
    One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
    A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)

    People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.

    In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
    It’s a dreadful shame. I’ve told him I don’t believe he’s under real risk - not in this country - but he feels differently.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off-topic:

    The following was linked to int he previous thread:
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labours-democracy-review-backs-online-voting-plan-to-give-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-new-power-over-policy-full-leak_uk_5b5f7a19e4b0de86f49a0174?6jt

    Labour is going for internal e-voting.

    I read the linked document, and 'security' or 'secure' was only mentioned once.: "The Labour Party should develop secure online voting systems to make it easy and cheap to hold online ballots"

    That'll end well ...

    It will reduce the power of MPs quite significantly. I read somewhere that Corbyn wants MPs excluded from any say in the next manifesto.

    So we can all look forward to a Labour manifesto created by people as ignorant as The Jezziah.
    And we will see more scenes like this:
    https://youtu.be/QFdt8sB8PzA
    (45 seconds in, although all of it is quite good.)
    It's utterly bonkers. Surely the point of a manifesto is that it's considered in its entirity, and like any (proper) budgeted schedule of work balances what you want with the resources you have. How the f*** can you produce a tax budget on that basis

    It'll just turn into a huge shopping list of vested interests. Mark me down for Owls for all...
    That is entirely the idea.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Cyclefree said:



    A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)

    People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.

    In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.

    I hope your friend reconsiders. This country has always been welcoming to Jews, whatever is happening in the Labour party isn't true for the rest of the country.

    They should also be careful about going to Germany, anti-Semitic abuse and crime is through the roof there and the German government isn't willing to do anything about it as they would have to admit their first error.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    Not Matthew Goodwin at his finest. What public trust? Social divides are hardened.

    Populism is already rampant in the UK, looking for its next outlet. It's not going to trickle away whatever happens with Brexit. The beast is going to be looking for new food.
    Minorities better watch out... they are usually targets.

    Let us stop calling it "Populism" and give it its proper name - Nationalism.
    I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present..

    Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
    One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
    A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)

    People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.

    In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
    Totally agree Ms Cyclefree. Especially the last paragraph.

    My wife and I were discussing this earlier and we really don’t understand antisemitism. She was brought up in industrial Lancashire, where there was anti-Catholic prejudice; didn’t understand it then, can’t understand it now. Same with anti-semitism. It’s just primitive dislike of ‘difference’.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    MaxPB said:

    Very poor growth stats coming out of the Eurozone.

    Well, how are their economies going to manage without that massive subsidy from the UK?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Scott_P said:
    Swearing at and calling colleagues Wanker Fucking Bastard and Fucking Anti Semite and Racist are tolerated because the PLP factional leaders are more interested in factional control than truth.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.

    Also, minorities, such as Jews, are already being targeted. See the extraordinary statement by one poster here about their “long term future” and other public figures saying that it is their fault that they are being picked on by Labour. I feel that Labour has already crossed a line of decency into behaviour and attitudes which are reminiscent of 1930’s Fascist or Nazi parties. Even worse, if possible, is that so many people are trying their hardest to ignore this or justify it. I am afraid that I do not admire such people, however calm they are. They are, in the words of MPs commenting on the aid scandal, guilty of “complacency verging on complicity”.

    Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
    One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
    A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)

    People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.

    In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
    Given the number of antisemitic assaults (not just insults) in Germany this year, your friend might want to rethink her choice.
    She does not want to live there. But once she has EU citizenship she can live somewhere else in the EU, if she needs to. German citizenship is simply the easiest for her to get. It's the fact that she even thinks that she might need a refuge from Britain which is so heartbreaking.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Scott_P said:
    Does the EU have veto power over New York?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1024194107378413573

    I think you misunderstand nationalism which, at its best, does not have to descend into bitter foreigner-hating xenophobia. Though we have far too much of the latter at present.
    .

    Still, at least you and I can discuss shoes!
    One of my best friends (Jewish, and lives in Hendon) is currently applying for Portuguese citizenship on that basis.
    A Jewish friend of mine is considering applying for German citizenship on the same basis. What makes this even more poignant is that both her parents were German Jews who managed to escape. Her father was one of those who was used by the British government to listen to the conversations of German PoW. (There was a book which came out shortly after his death about this work and what it showed about ordinary German soldiers’ knowledge of atrocities against Jews and others.)

    People like The Jezziah should be ashamed of seeking to justify attitudes and comments by Labour members and others which are leading Jewish people in this country to fear for their future safety should Corbyn come to power.

    In Britain - a country which has provided refuge to many and which should be proud of what it has done, the descendants of these refugees feel at risk from a party which claims to be anti-racist. For shame. Really, for shame.
    Given the number of antisemitic assaults (not just insults) in Germany this year, your friend might want to rethink her choice.
    She does not want to live there. But once she has EU citizenship she can live somewhere else in the EU, if she needs to. German citizenship is simply the easiest for her to get. It's the fact that she even thinks that she might need a refuge from Britain which is so heartbreaking.
    I wish I could get an Irish, or other EU, passport. My ancestry seems to be totally British Isles since the Saxons landed, although there might be a bit of Norman in there somewhere.
This discussion has been closed.