politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A week is a long time in politics
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Are you okay? Yesterday, you were comparing May to Franco, now you're predicting the breakdown of society.PClipp said:
Wow, Mr HYUFD, just wowwww!!!!!!!! I haven`t seen this yet. Perhaps I just wasn`t looking hard enough? Or perhaps it comes into the same category of empty promises as the glorious sunlit uplands, that we shall see after Brexit (according to Mr Rees-Mogg) in fifty years time?HYUFD said:
Compared to Osborne and Cameron, May, with her workers on boards plans and huge extra funds for the NHS and housing targets is less private free enterprisePClipp said:
Would one`s response not depend on the extent to which the government of the day kept private free enterprise under control? Mrs May`s Conservative Government seems hell-bent on letting private free enterprise decide the rules of the game. Examples - abolition of any real planning controls, promoting fracking etcHYUFD said:27% of voters are pro capitalism and private free enterprise, 21% are anti capitalism and private free enterprise, 39% of voters are neutral or undecided on a new poll
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/1020644317373829120
Given the choices on offer, my answer would have to be Dunno, though I do know very well. Sloppy survey, I think.
Perhaps those who survive the civil unrest, the breakdown of society, the collapse of the economy (short term, for the next 50 years) and who manage to get all their wealth abroad into safe off-shore havens? The rest of us, not.0 -
New thread.0
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Sorry to hear it, and best wishes to you and your family.AlastairMeeks said:Off topic, my father died last Sunday. I've written a few words about him. Please read them:
https://medium.com/@alastair.meeks/dad-59e09b8ec9a2
There is a certain sort of immortality for such people, in the influence that they have had on others. He sounded a great bloke, and it is also an interesting tale of social mobility, yet remaining true to oneself.0 -
Ok, so you don’t agree with the excelptinalism argument, fair enough, but what you have is a mindset that we should and must fail. That somehow not only are we unexceptional but actuall we are deeply mediocre and the only way we will find it out is through suffering.bookseller said:
Afternoon all.Philip_Thompson said:
If they were that glad to be rid of us they'd be trying to facilitate a clean break not make things difficult.OchEye said:
The EU cannot make concessions. 28, soon to be 27 countries have signed many treaties and agreements between each other and the EU itself. Just look at how difficult it is for the UK to unpick itself and if you think any other country wants to do the same and renegotiate with all the others, you are completely nuts. The others all realise the benefits of being able to trade and move between and across borders, and the power of being able to do deals with other blocs and countries on a basis of strength of size. The UK just carped from the sidelines, and the other 27 will probably be quite glad to see the back of us..
Instead they're taking rejection like a spurned lover.
As a die-hard Remainer, I am now - reluctantly - coming round to the "Hard-Brexit-as-a-route-to-back-in-the-EU" point of view.
I don't say this with any great enthusiasm. Too many of my friends are EU nationals living with a Sword of Damocles over them to know just how bloody awful this will be (for them). But FWIW, here's my reasoning. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this, and I can hear Moggsy's laughing into his evening cocoa.
Any semblance of compromise is obviously not possible - the country is too split, and the Brexiteers have powerful forces able to continue to swing opinion and jerk May around too much to be able to a) offer any meaningful concessions, or even be trusted to negotiate in good faith.
A No Deal Brexit will be painful, economically damaging and leave scar tissue for a generation. But the pain it will inflict will allow us to see the reality of what we've chucked away and the reality of our global situation.
If - as the Brexiteers predict - the UK moves into the sunny uplands of economic prosperity, then no-one will remember us Remainers in a few years (and I'm sure that chlorine-washed chicken doesn't taste too bad).
But if things get as bad as I suspect, then I think you will see a movement to get back in the EU. It may take 20 years (it took that long for Farage et al to get us out) but we can go back a more humble nation, ready to properly sign up to Schengen, the Euro, etc. In that way we can become a full partner of the EU, and try to make it work.
It took 69 years for Texas to (properly) join the Union. It may take us that long too.
A vindictive desire for failure.
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HYUFD said:
If we rejoin the single market, we will join the Euro, or we will all be members of a global currency already. Sorry, but history is not on your side. Already, your ordinary next door neighbour is buying goodies on Alibaba and other businesses in China, Japan, the America's, Australasia, Africa and, believe it or not, Europe. Heck, according to the BBC news recently, you can get drugs of your choice delivered to your door within 30 minutes. Trade has it's own power, and if the general consensus is to use one currency over any other, then governments will have to follow, or die of irrelevance, and lack of funds...bookseller said:
Afternoon all.Philip_Thompson said:
If they were that glad to be rid of us they'd be trying to facilitate a clean break not make things difficult.OchEye said:
The EU cannot make concessions. 28, soon to be 27 countries have signed many treaties and agreements between each other and the EU itself. Just look at how difficult it is f us..
Instead they're taking rejection like a spurned lover.
As a die-hard Remainer, I am now - reluctantly - coming round to the "Hard-Brexit-as-a-route-to-back-in-the-EU" point of view.
I don't say this with any great enthusiasm. Too many of my friends are EU nationals living with a Sword of Damocles over them to know just how bloody awful this will be (for them). But FWIW, here's my reasoning. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this, and I can hear Moggsy's laughing into his evening cocoa.
Any semblance of compromise is obviously not possible - the country is too split, and the Brexiteers have powerful forces able to continue to swing opinion and jerk May around too much to be able to a) offer any meaningful concessions, or even be trusted to negotiate in good faith.
A No Deal Brexit will be painful, economically damaging and leave scar tissue for a generation. But the pain it will inflict will allow us to see the reality of what we've chucked away and the reality of our global situation.
If - as the Brexiteers predict - the UK moves into the sunny uplands of economic prosperity, then no-one will remember us Remainers in a few years (and I'm sure that chlorine-washed chicken doesn't taste too bad).
But if things get as bad as I suspect, then I think you will see a movement to get back in the EU. It may take 20 years (it took that long for Farage et al to get us out) but we can go back a more humble nation, ready to properly sign up to Schengen, the Euro, etc. In that way we can become a full partner of the EU, and try to make it work.
It took 69 years for
The UK, Sweden and Denmark will rejoin Norway and Switzerland along with Iceland in EFTA, perhaps joined by some Eastern European nations and Austria too0 -
OchEye said:
Uh no. Ask Norway or Iceland who manage to be in the single market and outside the Euro without any problems at all.HYUFD said:
If we rejoin the single market, we will join the Euro, or we will all be members of a global currency already. Sorry, but history is not on your side. Already, your ordinary next door neighbour is buying goodies on Alibaba and other businesses in China, Japan, the America's, Australasia, Africa and, believe it or not, Europe. Heck, according to the BBC news recently, you can get drugs of your choice delivered to your door within 30 minutes. Trade has it's own power, and if the general consensus is to use one currency over any other, then governments will have to follow, or die of irrelevance, and lack of funds...bookseller said:
Afternoon all.Philip_Thompson said:
If they were that glad to be rid of us they'd be trying to facilitate a clean break not make things difficult.OchEye said:
The EU cannot make concessions. 28, soon to be 27 countries have signed many treaties and agreements between each other and the EU itself. Just look at how difficult it is f us..
Instead they're taking rejection like a spurned lover.
As a die-hard Remainer, I am now - reluctantly - coming round to the "Hard-Brexit-as-a-route-to-back-in-the-EU" point of view.
I don't say this with any great enthusiasm. Too many of my friends are EU nationals living with a Sword of Damocles over them to know just how bloody awful this will be (for them). But FWIW, here's my reasoning. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this, and I can hear Moggsy's laughing into his evening cocoa.
Any semblance of compromise is obviously not possible - p to Schengen, the Euro, etc. In that way we can become a full partner of the EU, and try to make it work.
It took 69 years for
The UK, Sweden and Denmark will rejoin Norway and Switzerland along with Iceland in EFTA, perhaps joined by some Eastern European nations and Austria too
Your point on trade from all over the world is of course also utterly irrelevant. If you think it is bad enough trying to manage the budgets and interest rates for such divergent economies as Germany and Greece with one currency try doing it for Zimbabwe and Singapore or Venezuela and Switzerland0 -
So why the moving vans outside No. 10the morning after a general election then?Mortimer said:
Normal procedure for leaving official residences, Hunt and No. 10 are comfortable with it, apparently.Fenman said:Boris is still living in the foreign secretaries official residence. It seems he doesn't understand that exit means exit.
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Alastair,AlastairMeeks said:Off topic, my father died last Sunday. I've written a few words about him. Please read them:
https://medium.com/@alastair.meeks/dad-59e09b8ec9a2
I am very sorry to hear of that sad news. Your eulogy was truly inspiring and I am sure does him proud.Having lost both my parents, I can empathise with the deep void that bereavement brings to us. As a Spiritualist - and practising Medium - I have a different view of death to most people - and see it as a stage of development with the physical existence being replaced by a higher spiritual life in another dimension. That knowledge,however, does not take away the pain of losing a person's physical prescence.0 -
Anecdotal - A remain backing work colleague now says he'd vote leave due to the intransigence of the EU.0
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+1Foxy said:
Sorry to hear it, and best wishes to you and your family.AlastairMeeks said:Off topic, my father died last Sunday. I've written a few words about him. Please read them:
https://medium.com/@alastair.meeks/dad-59e09b8ec9a2
There is a certain sort of immortality for such people, in the influence that they have had on others. He sounded a great bloke, and it is also an interesting tale of social mobility, yet remaining true to oneself.0 -
No, I don't have a vindictive desire for failure. I have two young sons, and I want their country to be a bright place for them to grow up in.notme said:
Ok, so you don’t agree with the excelptinalism argument, fair enough, but what you have is a mindset that we should and must fail. That somehow not only are we unexceptional but actuall we are deeply mediocre and the only way we will find it out is through suffering.bookseller said:
Afternoon all.Philip_Thompson said:
If they were that glad to be rid of us they'd be trying to facilitate a clean break not make things difficult.OchEye said:
The EU cannot make concessions. 28, soon to be 27 countries have signed many treaties and agreements between each other and the EU itself. Just look at how difficult it is for the UK to unpick itself and if you think any other country wants to do the same and renegotiate with all the others, you are completely nuts. The others all realise the benefits of being able to trade and move between and across borders, and the power of being able to do deals with other blocs and countries on a basis of strength of size. The UK just carped from the sidelines, and the other 27 will probably be quite glad to see the back of us..
Instead they're taking rejection like a spurned lover.
A vindictive desire for failure.
As I said, if things work out great, then no-one will care about the Remainers.
All I was trying to do was give you the mindset of a certain sort of remainer who intends to fight for us to rejoin the EU. One of the things I really appreciate about PB is that people are very open and honest about how they are thinking - and I very much appreciate getting a feel for how other people feel about political issues - and I thought I'd chip in.0 -
A lot of people have speculated that it's in the best interests of remainers to work with the Brexiteers to ensure no deal is possible, thus forcing a choice between continuity remain and no-deal Brexit.bookseller said:
All I was trying to do was give you the mindset of a certain sort of remainer who intends to fight for us to rejoin the EU. One of the things I really appreciate about PB is that people are very open and honest about how they are thinking - and I very much appreciate getting a feel for how other people feel about political issues - and I thought I'd chip in.
Whilst I do think the idea has merit, I also think it's tactically sound but strategically stupid. You'll win the battle but lose the war.
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There is no myth of a European identity - but there is an attempt to build one. In the past this has been carried out by force. The European experiment is try to have nations come together without genocide or military conquest.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Bookseller, trying to strangle national identities with red tape and the myth of a European identity will end in tears.
In terms of red tape - I've tended to find 'red tape' is a euphemism for properly governing the market. In case no-one had realised, we're trashing the environment, but of course a lot of sound environmental protection gets dismissed as 'red tape'.
In all my travels around the EU I have never seen national identities 'strangled'. But I have seen people have identities that are slightly more sophisticated than simply "I'm British". For example, I am English, British, European. I weep when England get knocked out of the World Cup, and I root for the European parliament standing up for privacy. Where's the problem?0
