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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Best of luck today Theresa – you are going to need it
Given Trump’s unpopularity in the UK this might just help TMay
Comments
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Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.0 -
Interesting, but not entirely a surprise, that mendacious, corrupt, misogynistic, (and quite likely criminal) narcissists have your approval.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
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+10archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
Trump is no diplomat, but he was right to state a few home truths. If May's proposed deal goes through, probably modified further to suit the EU, it will be BINO. The UK will become a vassal state ruled from Berlin/Brussels, with no say in trade or many other rules/laws and no ability to do business independently with the rest of the world. It is not what I voted for on 23/6/16.0 -
Like so many you appear unable to differentiate Trump (who is an acquired taste at best) and the office of President of the United States, the leader of our most important ally.Nigelb said:
Interesting, but not entirely a surprise, that mendacious, corrupt, misogynistic, (and quite likely criminal) narcissists have your approval.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
In passing it should noted that Trump currently has a higher approval rating at home than many leaders of EU countries, and it's their votes he wants, not ours.0 -
I wonder what the American public would think if our Prime Minister went on a trip to the USA where she attacked the mayor of New York, tore apart the Presidents policies (saying she could do better herself) and heaped praise on one of the Presidents rivals saying that they'd make a great President?
I'm certainly no fan of Theresa May but Trumps's antics on UK soil are so far beyond acceptable that it makes even me, a confirmed Liberal Democrat, want stand up for her (in principle rather than on policy, of course).
The Queen must be absolutely dreading meeting this moron... and goodness only knows what he'll come out and say after seeing her.0 -
Trump would have just right as a court jester---pot belly, bobbly hat and all.0
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You’re concerned about being a ‘vassal state’, but perfectly happy for your leaders to be instructed on how to behave by a foreign guest ?daodao said:
+10archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
Trump is no diplomat, but he was right to state a few home truths. If May's proposed deal goes through, probably modified further to suit the EU, it will be BINO. The UK will become a vassal state ruled from Berlin/Brussels, with no say in trade or many other rules/laws and no ability to do business independently with the rest of the world. It is not what I voted for on 23/6/16.
Trump wouldn’t know the truth if you beat him about the head with it, and ‘home’ ?
Trump most reminds me of a disregulated child in a primary school class.
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I am perfectly capable of differentiating the post from the man. He is a disgrace to the office, and is not acting as an ally.Indigo1 said:
Like so many you appear unable to differentiate Trump (who is an acquired taste at best) and the office of President of the United States, the leader of our most important ally.Nigelb said:
Interesting, but not entirely a surprise, that mendacious, corrupt, misogynistic, (and quite likely criminal) narcissists have your approval.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
In passing it should noted that Trump currently has a higher approval rating at home than many leaders of EU countries, and it's their votes he wants, not ours.
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Mainly agree with Mike, to be attacked by Trump will help May with the British public. But as the previous polling shows, Trump has a constituency here and they voted for the Tories and Brexit. So this will hurt her with her base.0
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Trump does have a constituency here. It’s fairly clear that some people put their admiration of authoritarians over the interests of their own country.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/07/12/trump-backed-brexit-then-he-used-it-as-leverage-219001
Contrary to the rhetoric, the Trump administration has pursued a predatory policy toward Britain designed to capitalize on the UK’s need for new trading arrangements after Brexit. The United States has sought to exact painful concessions that it was unable to secure when Britain negotiated as a member of the EU.
The Trump administration helped block an agreement between London and Brussels on its agricultural quotas in the World Trade Organization. It has offered Britain a worse deal on the Open Skies Agreement than it currently has as an EU member. Senior Trump administration officials have made it clear that it will insist the UK adopt many U.S. regulations as a condition for an FTA, even though this would necessarily limit Britain’s ability to negotiate a trade deal with the remaining 27 members of the EU. Some demands, like access to the National Health Service for U.S. firms, would be especially controversial in the UK...0 -
As the US becomes more protectionist, China becomes less so:
https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-trade-war-steers-germany-angela-merkel-and-china-xi-jinping-toward-a-united-front/
Trump is an enabler of authoritarian regimes even when he falls out with them.0 -
I think you are mistaken. I do not approve of either the EU leaders or Theresa May.Nigelb said:
Interesting, but not entirely a surprise, that mendacious, corrupt, misogynistic, (and quite likely criminal) narcissists have your approval.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.0 -
The public don’t need Donald Trump to make up their minds for them. I doubt this will make much difference either way - the public will think what the public will think.
Since Theresa May is not making any case for her approach and the headbangers are foaming at the mouth but not proposing anything realistically achievable, the public will miserably acquiesce with the government’s proposals but won’t thank it for them.0 -
Sounds about right. This won’t change too many minds; rather it will just cement a few prejudices in place.AlastairMeeks said:The public don’t need Donald Trump to make up their minds for them. I doubt this will make much difference either way - the public will think what the public will think.
Since Theresa May is not making any case for her approach and the headbangers are foaming at the mouth but not proposing anything realistically achievable, the public will miserably acquiesce with the government’s proposals but won’t thank it for them.
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This will strengthen the self-conviction of the headbangers - but they were beyond help anyway. And it’s another nail in the coffin lid of Boris.....0
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Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.0 -
So perhaps Theresa is regretting inviting the orange one to visit!
Her political judgement is so poor that you wonder how she made it so far. She is promoted way beyond her level of competence.
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Tom Newton Dunn on R4 - Trump has been a Brexiteer since the 1980s - their 10 minute slot overran to 28...
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1017553809164374016?s=210 -
Good morning, everyone.
He's only here for a few days. The media will wet itself with excitement, and then we'll return to trench warfare.0 -
Nations don't have friends, they have interests.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
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Trump will be gone in a day or so, the frothers can then settle down.0
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Turns out we're at the back of the the queue after all.0
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Really? I didn't think the Dems had the numbers to do that!SquareRoot said:Trump will be gone in a day or so, the frothers can then settle down.
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Do you have any basis for that opinion? Trade deals can be win-win (unless you are negotiating with the EU). If the US want what they want out of a deal, they will need to give us what we want or there is no deal. It is the benefit of having a sovereign trade policy.Sean_F said:
Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.0 -
There are some who want us to bend at the knee to the EU, and some who works prefer it to be the US.Sean_F said:
Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
And then there are people who believe we voted for British sovereignty.0 -
Time to accept TM deal or remain.Pulpstar said:Turns out we're at the back of the the queue after all.
And who on earth would trust Trump to do a trade deal that benefits the UK
It does look like this interview was organised by Farage, Boris and Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun
It will be interesting to see if this comes out in due course0 -
So you didn't see the detailed draft white paper produced by the 'headbangers' - which is far more achievable than May's fudge because it builds on a precedent which is already there and which Barnier and Tusk already said they would offer. Or do you only see what you want to see?AlastairMeeks said:The public don’t need Donald Trump to make up their minds for them. I doubt this will make much difference either way - the public will think what the public will think.
Since Theresa May is not making any case for her approach and the headbangers are foaming at the mouth but not proposing anything realistically achievable, the public will miserably acquiesce with the government’s proposals but won’t thank it for them.0 -
Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?0
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With the greatest of respect you live in Australia so a hard Brexit has no effect on you while at home my son in law and 40,000 of his fellow engineers and 120,000 in the supply chain futures are put in doubtarcher101au said:
So you didn't see the detailed draft white paper produced by the 'headbangers' - which is far more achievable than May's fudge because it builds on a precedent which is already there and which Barnier and Tusk already said they would offer. Or do you only see what you want to see?AlastairMeeks said:The public don’t need Donald Trump to make up their minds for them. I doubt this will make much difference either way - the public will think what the public will think.
Since Theresa May is not making any case for her approach and the headbangers are foaming at the mouth but not proposing anything realistically achievable, the public will miserably acquiesce with the government’s proposals but won’t thank it for them.0 -
Difference is, surely that we are (?were) part of the EU, so participated in the decision-making process and our interests had to be taken into account. It’s not like with a foreign country, especially one led by such as Trump!
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There are frothers in the UK too. They walk amongst us!ydoethur said:
Really? I didn't think the Dems had the numbers to do that!SquareRoot said:Trump will be gone in a day or so, the frothers can then settle down.
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The US has published what they want, and the provisions for agriculture will be unacceptable to MPs in rural constituencies. Who are all conservatives.archer101au said:
Do you have any basis for that opinion? Trade deals can be win-win (unless you are negotiating with the EU). If the US want what they want out of a deal, they will need to give us what we want or there is no deal. It is the benefit of having a sovereign trade policy.Sean_F said:
Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
The winners from cheaper food are the urban poor, who don't vote Conservative.0 -
i see that my namesake has his finger on the pulse:
https://twitter.com/LiamFox/status/1017533483437223936?s=190 -
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times0 -
I knew you’d get there in the end.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times0 -
Mr. NorthWales, how do you think such a vote would come about?
Obviously it'd need a Commons majority (there's a Remain majority, of course, but voting for a second referendum is not something that is guaranteed) but also someone to put it forward.
I wonder if Grieve et al. will try and make that the result of a meaningful vote.0 -
I don't disagree that Trump's behaviour is disgraceful. But we need to skip the hypocrisy here. Obama's behaviour in trying to interfere with the referendum was disgraceful. May's behaviour in lying about Brexit is disgraceful. I am just not sure I see much difference between one set of politicians and another.Nigelb said:
You’re concerned about being a ‘vassal state’, but perfectly happy for your leaders to be instructed on how to behave by a foreign guest ?daodao said:
+10archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
Trump is no diplomat, but he was right to state a few home truths. If May's proposed deal goes through, probably modified further to suit the EU, it will be BINO. The UK will become a vassal state ruled from Berlin/Brussels, with no say in trade or many other rules/laws and no ability to do business independently with the rest of the world. It is not what I voted for on 23/6/16.
Trump wouldn’t know the truth if you beat him about the head with it, and ‘home’ ?
Trump most reminds me of a disregulated child in a primary school class.
My point is that to some degree it served May right. The US is our closest ally and she has basically lectured them from afar and failed to back them when she should (don't remember her backing Trump re NATO but he is right) and she wouldn't arrange the visit because she was too weak to face down protesters. Everyone knows Trump wants to be liked. He is the US President. If you can't work out how to manage him appropriately, you shouldn't be in the job and May is getting the pretty foreseeable blowback from her approach.0 -
His enduring presence in the cabinet is one of the more bizarre aspects of these dark and turbulent days.Foxy said:i see that my namesake has his finger on the pulse:
https://twitter.com/LiamFox/status/1017533483437223936?s=190 -
That does not mean a trade deal with the US is not in our interests or that it cannot be done. Everyone has a constituency that wants something. The US will have areas they want to protect as well. You just work out what you can give and take, like all trade deals.rcs1000 said:
The US has published what they want, and the provisions for agriculture will be unacceptable to MPs in rural constituencies. Who are all conservatives.archer101au said:
Do you have any basis for that opinion? Trade deals can be win-win (unless you are negotiating with the EU). If the US want what they want out of a deal, they will need to give us what we want or there is no deal. It is the benefit of having a sovereign trade policy.Sean_F said:
Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
The winners from cheaper food are the urban poor, who don't vote Conservative.
Lying over Brexit is a Government killer, honestly FTAs are not major election issues.0 -
Ainsworth to May's Brown?Dura_Ace said:
His enduring presence in the cabinet is one of the more bizarre aspects of these dark and turbulent days.Foxy said:i see that my namesake has his finger on the pulse:
https://twitter.com/LiamFox/status/1017533483437223936?s=190 -
Who knew Trump and Australia were so getting along?archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
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Rebel Labour moderates and potentially the LDs.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, how do you think such a vote would come about?
Obviously it'd need a Commons majority (there's a Remain majority, of course, but voting for a second referendum is not something that is guaranteed) but also someone to put it forward.
I wonder if Grieve et al. will try and make that the result of a meaningful vote.
Whereas Corbyn, the SNP, and the ERG are variously motivated to reject the deal and bring down the government / crash the economy / dissolve the union.0 -
No doubt we all take Trump’s antics from our own standpoint.
Many of us who want a meaningful Brexit see Trump as expressing, naïvely perhaps and surely tactlessly, a genuine opinion about our chances of a free trade deal with the USA if the current government position is maintained. Our official negotiating posture of unabashed kowtowing to Brussels, acknowledging who is the master and pleading for any crumbs they may deign to drop, is seen as undignified humiliation by our friends (pace @rcs100 re friends and interests).
Listening to a couple of Finnish MEPs (they are held in high regard here in Finland) on the radio this morning, they have a clear view that the negotiations have run out of road and that we are heading for no-deal brexit. On the whole Finns are very keen EU-philes, which is geopolitical reality for them, but also very well disposed to the UK.
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Mr. Walker, bringing down the deal could mean a second referendum with that (and remain) as the options.
The party political aspect and Corbyn's own scepticism (although that could be outweighed by political opportunism) makes things more complicated.
Of course, the no deal/remain side would be immeasurably strengthened by having May campaign for the deal.0 -
It reminds me of studying revolutions at university. A common thread through many is that once the old regime is overthrown, the revolutionary programme comes into contact with reality, and the conflicting personal agendas of the leading participants come into play. That the sweeping aims of the revolution cannot easily be achieved forces some into compromise but enables others to outflank them by adopting more and more extreme positions. A spiral of violence in which one side kills the other is common. The two most common historical outcomes are that a strong leader grasps the stage and faces down the extremists (Napoleon, Cromwell) or the revolution is consumed by its own fire and leads to a counter-revolution and restoration of the old order.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
BigG is our first prominent counter-revolutionary.0 -
The alliance that is forming between Trump and the the more extreme Brexiteers is very significant indeed. Though most people are decided on which side of the Brexit debate they sit most leavers are uncertain what particular deal they support.
There will be some very queasy Leavers sratching their heads this morning. I'd go s far as to say this could be one of the most significant celebrity endorsements we have seen in a political debate for a very long time.0 -
Well Trump. along with everything else, is not exactly consistent.Foxy said:i see that my namesake has his finger on the pulse:
https://twitter.com/LiamFox/status/1017533483437223936?s=19
Having publicly gut-punched May, he's entirely capable of rowing back a bit.0 -
I never said your son in law shouldn’t expect to have foreign holidays. I merely pointed out that if our currency weakens, they would become more expensive for all of us, so some might chance their plans or holiday in the U.K. instead.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
On a separate topic, if you voted for Blair twice, please do not call yourself a lifelong Conservative. It would be a false statement.0 -
It has now become the only way to lance the boil.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, how do you think such a vote would come about?
Obviously it'd need a Commons majority (there's a Remain majority, of course, but voting for a second referendum is not something that is guaranteed) but also someone to put it forward.
I wonder if Grieve et al. will try and make that the result of a meaningful vote.
Hopefully when TM brings back a deal or a no deal0 -
Strange how some people are so concerned about what a deal with the EU will do for the prospects of a deal with the US, but how it apparently doesn't work the other way around.0
-
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that some of us have tried to vote for sensible parties of government all our lives. It’s very difficult at present.RoyalBlue said:
I never said your son in law shouldn’t expect to have foreign holidays. I merely pointed out that if our currency weakens, they would become more expensive for all of us, so some might chance their plans or holiday in the U.K. instead.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
On a separate topic, if you voted for Blair twice, please do not call yourself a lifelong Conservative. It would be a false statement.
Still an argument based around eat Spam, holiday in Blackpool is a sure fire vote winner.0 -
I have to say, I really don't see what all the fuss is about. We don't have a trade deal with the US and seem to do a lot of trade anyway. I think the same would be true with the EU.alex. said:Strange how some people are so concerned about what a deal with the EU will do for the prospects of a deal with the US, but how it apparently doesn't work the other way around.
For me, the advantage of leaving the CU is to cut tariffs on goods which we don't need to protect.0 -
Well that is some thought - am I really PB first counter - revolutionaryIanB2 said:
It reminds me of studying revolutions at university. A common thread through many is that once the old regime is overthrown, the revolutionary programme comes into contact with reality, and the conflicting personal agendas of the leading participants come into play. That the sweeping aims of the revolution cannot easily be achieved forces some into compromise but enables others to outflank them by adopting more and more extreme positions. A spiral of violence in which one side kills the other is common. The two most common historical outcomes are that a strong leader grasps the stage and faces down the extremists (Napoleon, Cromwell) or the revolution is consumed by its own fire and leads to a counter-revolution and restoration of the old order.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
BigG is our first prominent counter-revolutionary.0 -
You are quite right. Brexit is best understood as a failed revolution, owing to a failure to seize the key levers of power after initial victory and allowing counter-revolutionaries to retain their control of key state organs.IanB2 said:
It reminds me of studying revolutions at university. A common thread through many is that once the old regime is overthrown, the revolutionary programme comes into contact with reality, and the conflicting personal agendas of the leading participants come into play. That the sweeping aims of the revolution cannot easily be achieved forces some into compromise but enables others to outflank them by adopting more and more extreme positions. A spiral of violence in which one side kills the other is common. The two most common historical outcomes are that a strong leader grasps the stage and faces down the extremists (Napoleon, Cromwell) or the revolution is consumed by its own fire and leads to a counter-revolution and restoration of the old order.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
BigG is our first prominent counter-revolutionary.
History will judge most Brexiteers to have been extremely naive about the ease of achieving their goals. Gove and Cummings are the exception.0 -
Would it ?RoyalBlue said:
I never said your son in law shouldn’t expect to have foreign holidays. I merely pointed out that if our currency weakens, they would become more expensive for all of us, so some might chance their plans or holiday in the U.K. instead.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
On a separate topic, if you voted for Blair twice, please do not call yourself a lifelong Conservative. It would be a false statement.0 -
That is a strategic misreading of the present situation.Roger said:The alliance that is forming between Trump and the the more extreme Brexiteers is very significant indeed. Though most people are decided on which side of the Brexit debate they sit most leavers are uncertain what particular deal they support.
There will be some very queasy Leavers sratching their heads this morning. I'd go s far as to say this could be one of the most significant events we have seen in a political debate for a very long time.
The most significant event in British political discourse since the election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979 was the BREXIT vote. All flows from it.
The Trump "state visit" (in all but name) is dramatic theatre but May and the other European leaders have from the earliest days of his presidency realized that there is one personal driving force behind Donald's term of office - Narcissism - All flows from it.
Their problem is determining how to deal with it. All flows from it0 -
He was as near to a conservative as you could get at the time.RoyalBlue said:
I never said your son in law shouldn’t expect to have foreign holidays. I merely pointed out that if our currency weakens, they would become more expensive for all of us, so some might chance their plans or holiday in the U.K. instead.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
On a separate topic, if you voted for Blair twice, please do not call yourself a lifelong Conservative. It would be a false statement.
And I will continue to say I am a lifelong conservative despite your protestations0 -
I think, at the very least, you are an interesting barometer of where the more moderate strands of Conservative opinion are at the moment. You're close to where I was around 2 or 3 or 4 years ago - though, of course, my opinions changed at a more sedate pace as there wasn't a national crisis happening at the time.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Well that is some thought - am I really PB first counter - revolutionary0 -
Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
I admire your passionate views but you are too immersed in the minute by minute politics.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
Try to stand back and see the big picture.
Sadly the big picture is May is seen as stuttering and lacking in imagination. A weak, cautious robot of a leader, with no guile or empathy. She will DEFINITELY ruin the Tory cause for a generation because her managerial style of surrender government contrasts sharply with even Corbyn, who at least knows what he wants, and will welcome a revolution to get there.
She should stand down because she's not up to it.
The Trump and ERG things will not influence the public either way. The voters know what to expect there. May ramming her cabinet with Remainers and being too weak and gutless to even explain her Brexit proposals will have far more impact.
-1 -
Additional evidence for the proposition:CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1017664396238245889?s=210 -
Big G
PB is a fascinating place full of a whole range of opinions and a larger range of people expressing those opinions.
I can see that the direction of travel with some of the exchanges you are having could be quite upsetting for you.
I think you should at all times remind yourself that wonderful as PB is, it is just an internet forum and things said on internet forums should not be taken too seriously. In particular with some of the bonkers posters on here.
And they certainly shouldn’t be taken as any kind of valid comment on you or your life.0 -
Yes, but it's Trump, so not somebody he doesn't agree with. By contrast, he's spent most of his life slagging off people he's agreed with.CarlottaVance said:
(Looks round expectantly to see how this morning's troll of the Corbynistas goes down...)
0 -
Indeed. And traditional enemies are emerging as surprising bedfellows, with the accompanying embarassed shuffle out of the door in the morning.JackW said:
That is a strategic misreading of the present situation.Roger said:The alliance that is forming between Trump and the the more extreme Brexiteers is very significant indeed. Though most people are decided on which side of the Brexit debate they sit most leavers are uncertain what particular deal they support.
There will be some very queasy Leavers sratching their heads this morning. I'd go s far as to say this could be one of the most significant events we have seen in a political debate for a very long time.
The most significant event in British political discourse since the election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979 was the BREXIT vote. All flows from it.
The Trump "state visit" (in all but name) is dramatic theatre but May and the other European leaders have from the earliest days of his presidency realized that there is one personal driving force behind Donald's term of office - Narcissism - All flows from it.
Their problem is determining how to deal with it. All flows from it
0 -
A trade deal with the US under Trump can never be win-win. It is a fact that Trump believes all trade deals to have a winner and a loser and if the other party considers itself a winner then by definition the US must be the loser and so the deal is unacceptable.archer101au said:
Do you have any basis for that opinion? Trade deals can be win-win (unless you are negotiating with the EU). If the US want what they want out of a deal, they will need to give us what we want or there is no deal. It is the benefit of having a sovereign trade policy.Sean_F said:
Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.0 -
If the Conservatives stab farmers in the back over a FTA with America then there will never be a Conservative government again.archer101au said:
That does not mean a trade deal with the US is not in our interests or that it cannot be done. Everyone has a constituency that wants something. The US will have areas they want to protect as well. You just work out what you can give and take, like all trade deals.rcs1000 said:
The US has published what they want, and the provisions for agriculture will be unacceptable to MPs in rural constituencies. Who are all conservatives.archer101au said:
Do you have any basis for that opinion? Trade deals can be win-win (unless you are negotiating with the EU). If the US want what they want out of a deal, they will need to give us what we want or there is no deal. It is the benefit of having a sovereign trade policy.Sean_F said:
Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
The winners from cheaper food are the urban poor, who don't vote Conservative.
Lying over Brexit is a Government killer, honestly FTAs are not major election issues.
The agricultural concessions we make to the EU is already over the line for many farmers. What we'd have to accept for America wouldn't even leave the line visible for the majority of farmers.0 -
“I told her how to do it”
He really has a problem with women in power, doesn’t he? Merkel, May and before them Clinton....0 -
Amen. Which only underscores the ridiculous position of the anti EU/any trade deal with the US please faction.rcs1000 said:
The US has published what they want, and the provisions for agriculture will be unacceptable to MPs in rural constituencies. Who are all conservatives.archer101au said:
Do you have any basis for that opinion? Trade deals can be win-win (unless you are negotiating with the EU). If the US want what they want out of a deal, they will need to give us what we want or there is no deal. It is the benefit of having a sovereign trade policy.Sean_F said:
Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
The winners from cheaper food are the urban poor, who don't vote Conservative.0 -
@Fenster “May ramming her Cabinet with Remainers”.
This is the kind of idiot rewriting of history that is so contemptible about Leavers. The Leavers in government have flounced off one by one in an attempt to secure by sabotage what they could not obtain in Cabinet by force of argument. Leavers are pretending to be victims after they have acted with incompetent malice.0 -
Sir Alan playing a very straight bat on R4....0
-
It will be very disturbing and dangerous times if you don't respect leaves referendum result.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times0 -
Yes I do agree but we are now in a National crisis.TOPPING said:Big G
PB is a fascinating place full of a whole range of opinions and a larger range of people expressing those opinions.
I can see that the direction of travel with some of the exchanges you are having could be quite upsetting for you.
I think you should at all times remind yourself that wonderful as PB is, it is just an internet forum and things said on internet forums should not be taken too seriously. In particular with some of the bonkers posters on here.
And they certainly shouldn’t be taken as any kind of comment on you or your life.
TM has mishandled this in some ways but there is nobody else who seems to have a clue how to act in our best interests.
I am not concerned about her standing down but the only way forward is deal or remain.
My main issue is for the first time I have come under attack from fellow conservatives who seem to have lost all sense with reality but as you say it is a forum and these things hapoen, sadly0 -
The only way Trump's comments help May is if it sees some Trump hating Labour or LD Remainer voters move to the Tories. Otherwise it will not counteract the effect of the Tory voters who have shifted to UKIP because of the EU lite Chequers deal Trump alluded too0
-
Tabman .. as I live and breathTabman said:
Indeed. And traditional enemies are emerging as surprising bedfellows, with the accompanying embarassed shuffle out of the door in the morning.JackW said:
That is a strategic misreading of the present situation.Roger said:The alliance that is forming between Trump and the the more extreme Brexiteers is very significant indeed. Though most people are decided on which side of the Brexit debate they sit most leavers are uncertain what particular deal they support.
There will be some very queasy Leavers sratching their heads this morning. I'd go s far as to say this could be one of the most significant events we have seen in a political debate for a very long time.
The most significant event in British political discourse since the election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979 was the BREXIT vote. All flows from it.
The Trump "state visit" (in all but name) is dramatic theatre but May and the other European leaders have from the earliest days of his presidency realized that there is one personal driving force behind Donald's term of office - Narcissism - All flows from it.
Their problem is determining how to deal with it. All flows from it
.. a ghost looms from the mists of PB past .. 
I hope all is well at Tabman Towers ?
Was your analysis a metaphor for the Coalition government ? ..
0 -
It has the respect that it deserves.Tykejohnno said:
It will be very disturbing and dangerous times if you don't respect leaves referendum result.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times0 -
Perhaps HM should be too busy.
Someone, somewhere needs to teach Trump a lesson.0 -
LOLAlastairMeeks said:@Fenster “May ramming her Cabinet with Remainers”.
This is the kind of idiot rewriting of history that is so contemptible about Leavers. The Leavers in government have flounced off one by one in an attempt to secure by sabotage what they could not obtain in Cabinet by force of argument. Leavers are pretending to be victims after they have acted with incompetent malice.
How on earth could Boris and Davies stay in place?
Take the personalities out of it, they were presented with proposals which forced them to renege on what they'd offered the electorate. What they'd offered the electorate might have been pie in the sky (your opinion) but May has lacked the imagination to think BIG. They had to go.0 -
I have consistantly respected leave vote and am content with TM deal but I am absolutely not content with a hard Brexit. In these circumstances the question has to be put to the CountryTykejohnno said:
It will be very disturbing and dangerous times if you don't respect leaves referendum result.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times0 -
Certainly not queering the pitch on Sky News either ....CarlottaVance said:Sir Alan playing a very straight bat on R4....
0 -
Trump is Trump. He sees himself as shooting from the hip and telling it as it is.
On NATO, he had a point, but often he doesn't. Not much different from any other politician who believes what they want to believe, and only look at facts that reinforce their opinion. The only difference is that he's much ruder (uncouth, in fact).
Tomorrow, you may well find that he and Mrs May are bessie mates.
He might even change his mind about the EU eventually. Strong, he thinks so. Stable not.
Mr G, I've no problem with anyone who changes their mind. Mr Meeks might even come round to wanting to leave the EU.0 -
We need to commit. No deal, May's deal (and hope the EU go for it) or remain. The middle option is still leaving and gives time for someone after may to go harder if that is wanted. The first is unnecessarily disruptive. The third can't be justified without public endorsement.
Unfortunately, this is broadly right. May was accused of being too in hock to the hard leavers, and cleary kept them on board as long as she could, and theyleft after the group did not support them.AlastairMeeks said:@Fenster “May ramming her Cabinet with Remainers”.
This is the kind of idiot rewriting of history that is so contemptible about Leavers. The Leavers in government have flounced off one by one in an attempt to secure by sabotage what they could not obtain in Cabinet by force of argument. Leavers are pretending to be victims after they have acted with incompetent malice.0 -
Royal Blue You are absolutely right.RoyalBlue said:
I never said your son in law shouldn’t expect to have foreign holidays. I merely pointed out that if our currency weakens, they would become more expensive for all of us, so some might chance their plans or holiday in the U.K. instead.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
On a separate topic, if you voted for Blair twice, please do not call yourself a lifelong Conservative. It would be a false statement.
I have the utmost respect for BigG personally but someone who voted for Blair twice is not a 'lifelong conservative' even if he generally does vote and campaign for the Tories.
To explain that from a Tory perspective try telling a Labour member and Corbyn supporter someone who voted for Cameron twice is a 'lifelong Labour voter' and wait for the reaction0 -
Like the boy who murdered his parents and threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan, your attempt to play the victim is wholly unconvincing.Fenster said:
LOLAlastairMeeks said:@Fenster “May ramming her Cabinet with Remainers”.
This is the kind of idiot rewriting of history that is so contemptible about Leavers. The Leavers in government have flounced off one by one in an attempt to secure by sabotage what they could not obtain in Cabinet by force of argument. Leavers are pretending to be victims after they have acted with incompetent malice.
How on earth could Boris and Davies stay in place?
Take the personalities out of it, they were presented with proposals which forced them to renege on what they'd offered the electorate. What they'd offered the electorate might have been pie in the sky (your opinion) but May has lacked the imagination to think BIG. They had to go.0 -
The leavers are certainly useless but the lack of planning for no deal which had to be done from the off in order to get any leverage with the EU was stupid.AlastairMeeks said:@Fenster “May ramming her Cabinet with Remainers”.
This is the kind of idiot rewriting of history that is so contemptible about Leavers. The Leavers in government have flounced off one by one in an attempt to secure by sabotage what they could not obtain in Cabinet by force of argument. Leavers are pretending to be victims after they have acted with incompetent malice.0 -
It's amazing the demands of political purity from some are so extreme. Putting ideological purity above all else is what Conservatives used to make fun of Corbynistas for.Big_G_NorthWales said:
He was as near to a conservative as you could get at the time.RoyalBlue said:
I never said your son in law shouldn’t expect to have foreign holidays. I merely pointed out that if our currency weakens, they would become more expensive for all of us, so some might chance their plans or holiday in the U.K. instead.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
On a separate topic, if you voted for Blair twice, please do not call yourself a lifelong Conservative. It would be a false statement.
And I will continue to say I am a lifelong conservative despite your protestations0 -
Welcome to the dark side Mr G.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Well that is some thought - am I really PB first counter - revolutionary
Some posters of this parish take it personally when you change your political position (as I found out myself a couple of months ago)
Ignore the purists and zealots or do what I did and take several weeks off and relax0 -
Indeed. I have nothing but respect for Big G and, asdie from being a true gent, he's also a good barometer of moderate opinion.Torby_Fennel said:
I think, at the very least, you are an interesting barometer of where the more moderate strands of Conservative opinion are at the moment. You're close to where I was around 2 or 3 or 4 years ago - though, of course, my opinions changed at a more sedate pace as there wasn't a national crisis happening at the time.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Well that is some thought - am I really PB first counter - revolutionary
I had my first real Brexit wobble last month as I was driving through a quaint market town, the kind of place you think only exists in postcards these days. And I said to myself, Brexit is going to make everything shit, isn't it?
I despise the EU, I think it's an affront to democracy. I think freedom of movement has caused untold damage to the fabric of society, I think the Euro has been an unmitigated disaster and I think the tin-eared bureaucrats in Brussels have absolutely no interest in representing the interests of British citizens - and make no mistake, as the Brexit negotiations are showing, they are very much the ones in charge.
I still think Brexit is a good idea from a democratic point of view. There is more to life than money - the right to self-determination being one of them. But if we end up as a vassal state, what has been the point of it all? And if the deal is worse than what we had before, or worse, leads to economic disaster, I am inclined to agree that the leaders of the revolution will be swiftly devoured by those who believed in them.0 -
See Trump has made a full on attack against Sadiq Khan, maybe that was to be expected0
-
Mr Johnny,
"It will be very disturbing and dangerous times if you don't respect leaves referendum result."
Some people prefer selective democracy. Only stuff they approve of can be allowed to go through. A little like the politburo democracy. They're superior people, you see.
0 -
For which those resigning have to take a very large share of responsibility.FrankBooth said:
The leavers are certainly useless but the lack of planning for no deal which had to be done from the off in order to get any leverage with the EU was stupid.AlastairMeeks said:@Fenster “May ramming her Cabinet with Remainers”.
This is the kind of idiot rewriting of history that is so contemptible about Leavers. The Leavers in government have flounced off one by one in an attempt to secure by sabotage what they could not obtain in Cabinet by force of argument. Leavers are pretending to be victims after they have acted with incompetent malice.0 -
There’s a very unConservative ideological zealotry in the Conservatives these days. They are not the party they once were. They should probably call themselves the Nationalists instead.kle4 said:
It's amazing the demands of political purity from some are so extreme. Putting ideological purity above all else is what Conservatives used to make fun of Corbynistas for.Big_G_NorthWales said:
He was as near to a conservative as you could get at the time.RoyalBlue said:
I never said your son in law shouldn’t expect to have foreign holidays. I merely pointed out that if our currency weakens, they would become more expensive for all of us, so some might chance their plans or holiday in the U.K. instead.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Yes - I am now firmly in remain as the best option.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, advocating a second referendum with those two options (deal/remain)?
As a lifelong conservative I came under attack yesterday from fellow conservatives accusing me of hysteria, not being a proper conservative, and that my son in law working for Airbus should maybe not expect to have a foreign holiday as it will all come right in the end.
I will remain a loyal member of my party and reject the 25% of ERG groups suicidal march to economic disaster
It is so strange that this week has seen me actually move to the Dominic Grieve, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke side
Really disturbing and dangerous times
On a separate topic, if you voted for Blair twice, please do not call yourself a lifelong Conservative. It would be a false statement.
And I will continue to say I am a lifelong conservative despite your protestations0 -
Perhaps British farmers should get better at it, why do people accept subsidies for farming as a good thing ?Alistair said:
If the Conservatives stab farmers in the back over a FTA with America then there will never be a Conservative government again.archer101au said:
That does not mean a trade deal with the US is not in our interests or that it cannot be done. Everyone has a constituency that wants something. The US will have areas they want to protect as well. You just work out what you can give and take, like all trade deals.rcs1000 said:
The US has published what they want, and the provisions for agriculture will be unacceptable to MPs in rural constituencies. Who are all conservatives.archer101au said:
Do you have any basis for that opinion? Trade deals can be win-win (unless you are negotiating with the EU). If the US want what they want out of a deal, they will need to give us what we want or there is no deal. It is the benefit of having a sovereign trade policy.Sean_F said:
Why would we want a trade deal with the US? It would be an extremely one-sided agreement.archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.
The winners from cheaper food are the urban poor, who don't vote Conservative.
Lying over Brexit is a Government killer, honestly FTAs are not major election issues.
The agricultural concessions we make to the EU is already over the line for many farmers. What we'd have to accept for America wouldn't even leave the line visible for the majority of farmers.
Australia and New Zealand stripped away all tax payer funding for farming and their agricultural sectors are booming0 -
Trump and Australia maybe, Trump and Cameron clone Turnbull rather less soIanB2 said:
Who knew Trump and Australia were so getting along?archer101au said:Good old Donald!
The trouble is that people like Clegg don't realise that they are not better than Trump, they are just the reverse of Trump. Elitist snobs who love glad-handing at international organisations and then won't implement the results of the biggest public vote in UK history. Trump exists because people like Clegg exist. If all the Cleggs went away, we wouldn't have Trump!
And no, May will get no sympathy. People are going to realise that Trump is saying what he thinks and that most of them agree with him - May has made a dreadful hash of negotiations and the UK would much rather we had someone like Trump to stand up for our interests. And, of course, he is pointing out that the truth of her dreadful Chequers plan is that we won't be able to agree trade deals with major players such as the US.
The US is our ally and friend, regardless of which muppet they elect. The EU is not our ally and certainly not our friend. May forgot this. Trump is giving her a well-deserved kicking.0 -
It won't be easy, hence why crashing out is more likely, but may does not have the strength in her party to do what she thinks she needs to and someone needs to make a decision.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. NorthWales, how do you think such a vote would come about?
Obviously it'd need a Commons majority (there's a Remain majority, of course, but voting for a second referendum is not something that is guaranteed) but also someone to put it forward.
I wonder if Grieve et al. will try and make that the result of a meaningful vote.0 -
At the Blenheim Palace dinner with US and UK businesses looking on, May’s first words of welcome to Trump on Thursday were pretty transactional themselves.AlastairMeeks said:
Additional evidence for the proposition:CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1017664396238245889?s=21
Pointing out the two nations were the largest investors in each other’s economies, “with over a trillion dollars of investments between us” she rammed home that the UK is the largest investor in the US, “providing nearly a fifth of all foreign investment in your country”.
“We invest 30% more than our nearest rival. More than 20 times what China invests. And more than France and Germany combined.
“That all means a great deal more than simply numbers in bank accounts. It means jobs, opportunities and wealth for hardworking people right across America,”
“Tomorrow morning, around 24,000 men and women in Michigan will get up and go to work for a UK-owned company. Another 40,000 will do the same in Ohio. 60,000 in Pennsylvania.
“In Texas, British employers provide work for an incredible 100,000 people.”0 -
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/trump-uk-visit-theresa-may-what-its-like_uk_5b477a1de4b022fdcc5719ff?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics&ncid=newsletter-ukThe Waugh Zone 130718
Mostly reflects fairly well on May though her strategy seems primarily to suck it up and keep her temper.0 -
Indeed and I am off back to my wifes family in the north of Scotland next week but I expect I shall continue to post but in the end I am only one voice and do try to express my honest opinion and without using unnecessary languageBeverley_C said:
Welcome to the dark side Mr G.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Well that is some thought - am I really PB first counter - revolutionary
Some posters of this parish take it personally when you change your political position (as I found out myself a couple of months ago)
Ignore the purists and zealots or do what I did and take several weeks off and relax0
