politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Speaker cornered. Time for John Bercow to stand down as Speake
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Speaker cornered. Time for John Bercow to stand down as Speaker
I have a soft spot for John Bercow, located somewhere around my wallet. Over the years he has been a steady source of income for me as he has survived in office as Speaker, despite the noises off that regularly come from Conservative backwoodsmen harrumphing about his supposed rudeness and perceived unConservativeness. Despite abundant evidence that only a small minority were willing to put their heads above the parapet, enough Bercowphobes were regularly willing to put money on the proposition that he would be ejected from the Speaker’s chair by given dates to enable me to make a decent income.
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Good morning0
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Is there a potential replacement who has not expressed a view, one way or the other, on Brexit? You'd not want Jacob Rees-Mogg, for instance, if that was your concern, although it has been said in the past that the Speaker's chair was his ambition.0
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Like Alastair, I am a fan of Bercow, who has been willing to be bold and firm with Parliament and government in a way that stands out from many of his predecessors. It's a shame that his calling out of individual MPs who behave like kiddies in the chamber hasn't picked up more traction in the wider world.
It will always be difficult finding someone "neutral" on any big issue, given that the candidate has to be drawn from a group of people all of whom got there through fighting a party political contest. The best they can do is pick someone who has generally stayed above the fray, whicn might once upon a time have stretched to JRM, but not today. It would however be a great way to get him out of the way.0 -
An excellent article.
Thanks Alistair. Time for Speaker Vince Cable to arise...
(Joke)0 -
Surely Lindsay Hoyle is the natural successor0
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A well written and thought provoking piece, thanks Alastair.
I agree that it’s probably time for him to step down, he’s been a reasonably good referee but has increasingly become the story - not a good thing for someone who is supposed to be impartial, and more importantly be seen to be impartial.
I can see him wanting to stay on until we leave the EU and all the associated legislation passes. I think he wants to see himself at the centre of it. There is also the issue that it will be difficult to find any MP without a strong view on the subject (Jeremy Corbyn excepted!) so it might be better to appoint a new Speaker once Brexit is no longer a live political issue.
The Commons also needs to think carefully about how they police themselves. That an investigation into the Speaker for personal abuse can be blocked by a committee he chairs and consisting of people appointed by him is out of order.0 -
@DecrepitJohnL - Agreed, I can't find anything from Hoyle about Brexit. He seems the obvious choice.
Alas, I cannot see the incumbent stepping down.0 -
Good call if the vacancy happens soon. A well respected current deputy.SquareRoot said:Surely Lindsay Hoyle is the natural successor
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Agree - he’s much less fond of the sound of his own voice than Bercow - the contrast when he chaired PMQs because Bercow was at Speaker Martin’s funeral was striking.SquareRoot said:Surely Lindsay Hoyle is the natural successor
Good thread - but fear Bercow is too fond of the limelight to step aside. How could he resist one, final, heroic role in Brexit? What did Powell say about political careers?0 -
Yep time for Bercow to go.0
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Interesting read... Who would I get as my prospective MP though to replace him in the peoples republic of Buckingham Bercow... The evening standard editor looks capable... And young with some time on his hands.0
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Good morning, everyone.
Good article, Mr. Meeks. There's also the matter of Bercow saying he would've stepped down by now.
F1: will see if I can find any bets. And must check the weather forecast.0 -
On his job, he has performed it adequately but is certainly no Betty Boothroyd
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FPT for some reason wiki doesn’t highlight this, but the Eurodollar market got its first massive boost when Kennedy introduced a 15% withholding tax.rcs1000 said:An excellent article.
Thanks Alistair. Time for Speaker Vince Cable to arise...
(Joke)
Being traded outside the US they were withholding tax free0 -
F1: still only 13 markets on the race on Ladbrokes. Unglaublich!
There should be around 22-25 of main markets, with another 10 matches and perhaps a couple of specials.0 -
Anyone thinking of trying to see off Bercow ought to consider who might replace him. I cannot think of anyone obvious.0
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It is indeed.rcs1000 said:An excellent article.
Thanks Alistair.....
There is also the small matter of the 40-odd NDAs (which for obvious reasons is yet to be fully explored). To have any chance of salvaging his reputation, Bercow should take the opportunity to go now, but I expect his arrogance to get the better of him. He might yet cling on into next year.
Had he stepped down last week, as originally promised, he’d likely be remembered as an excellent Speaker.
FPT, this is a very comprehensive and informative article on the history of the Euro Dollar market, though the prose is a little stilted:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278303751_The_History_of_the_Euro-Dollar_Market_-_a_Chronological_Account_of_the_1960s
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Mr. Booth, Hoyle, surely?0
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Mr. P, saw a clip of Alex Deane[sp] doing the Sky paper review, and referring to Airbus' identical threat if we didn't join the single currency.0
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Airbus didn't exist as a company before 2000, before that it was a loose consortium of national aerospace companies.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, saw a clip of Alex Deane[sp] doing the Sky paper review, and referring to Airbus' identical threat if we didn't join the single currency.
That being said, I doubt Airbus could move wing production rapidly, so I'd be surprised if they actually did anything.0 -
Which is no real reason to believe it might not be true this time.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, saw a clip of Alex Deane[sp] doing the Sky paper review, and referring to Airbus' identical threat if we didn't join the single currency.
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Interesting.
MPs decide, don’t they? If they want Bercow to stay, I guess he will. Given the decision he has to make on the meaningful vote that in and of itself would be very significant.0 -
One thing to note is that there hasn't been a Tory Speaker for a long time. Bercow is a Tory in name only, and can be discounted as having been Tory.0
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The figures on those NDAs:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-445711200 -
Bercow has travelled across much of the political spectrum during his time. I wouldn’t be astonished were he to become Jezzah’s leader in the Lords in order to complete his journey...SquareRoot said:One thing to note is that there hasn't been a Tory Speaker for a long time. Bercow is a Tory in name only, and can be discounted as having been Tory.
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Mr. 1000, cheers for that info (may have been referring to a forerunner company, but still).
Mr. B, true, though lots of the warnings are coming from those who, in the past, supported eurozone membership. I suspect (people not being prone to persuasion when they have a firm opinion) it just sounds like General Melchitt's pronouncement: "Doing precisely what we've done 17 times before is precisely the last thing they'll expect us to do this time."0 -
Once Bercow has gone as Speaker, one would hope he disappeared into obscurity,Nigelb said:
Bercow has travelled across much of the political spectrum during his time. I wouldn’t be astonished were he to become Jezzah’s leader in the Lords in order to complete his journey...SquareRoot said:One thing to note is that there hasn't been a Tory Speaker for a long time. Bercow is a Tory in name only, and can be discounted as having been Tory.
permanently. He may have been a great Speaker in terms of his giving power back to backbenchers, but I can no longer bear to listen to his over verbose pontifications.0 -
And any replacement would be equally contentious for that very reason, even mild mannered Lindsay Hoyle. Not expressing some sort of opinion on the matter would probably be untenable if there were to be a contest.SouthamObserver said:Interesting.
MPs decide, don’t they? If they want Bercow to stay, I guess he will. Given the decision he has to make on the meaningful vote that in and of itself would be very significant.
It’s quite possible that Bercow will stay for some time.0 -
Which would surely make him the ideal candidate for the post ?SquareRoot said:
Once Bercow has gone as Speaker, one would hope he disappeared into obscurity,Nigelb said:
Bercow has travelled across much of the political spectrum during his time. I wouldn’t be astonished were he to become Jezzah’s leader in the Lords in order to complete his journey...SquareRoot said:One thing to note is that there hasn't been a Tory Speaker for a long time. Bercow is a Tory in name only, and can be discounted as having been Tory.
permanently. He may have been a great Speaker in terms of his giving power back to backbenchers, but I can no longer bear to listen to his over verbose pontifications.
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If cartoonist Morten Morland knew his planes, he would have drawn a Beluga that carries the wings.....Scott_P said:0 -
I think you need to look at the talk about Bercow and how he handles things behind the scenes before you start using words like "ideal candidate" Bercow's course has overrun. Its now a case of "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest"Nigelb said:
Which would surely make him the ideal candidate for the post ?SquareRoot said:
Once Bercow has gone as Speaker, one would hope he disappeared into obscurity,Nigelb said:
Bercow has travelled across much of the political spectrum during his time. I wouldn’t be astonished were he to become Jezzah’s leader in the Lords in order to complete his journey...SquareRoot said:One thing to note is that there hasn't been a Tory Speaker for a long time. Bercow is a Tory in name only, and can be discounted as having been Tory.
permanently. He may have been a great Speaker in terms of his giving power back to backbenchers, but I can no longer bear to listen to his over verbose pontifications.0 -
There's a difference between having expressed an opinion once and having the decorum to realise putting a 'bollocks to Brexit' bumper sticker on your car while you're meant to appear impartial is a bad idea. An 'Up you to the EU' sticker would be just as bad.Nigelb said:
And any replacement would be equally contentious for that very reason, even mild mannered Lindsay Hoyle. Not expressing some sort of opinion on the matter would probably be untenable if there were to be a contest.SouthamObserver said:Interesting.
MPs decide, don’t they? If they want Bercow to stay, I guess he will. Given the decision he has to make on the meaningful vote that in and of itself would be very significant.
It’s quite possible that Bercow will stay for some time.
I suspect Hoyle would never have done that.0 -
The Speaker does not chair the Committee on Standards nor does it consist of people appointed by him. It is appointed by the House and is currently chaired by Sir Kevin Barron. As chair, Barron only votes if a casting vote is required so did not vote on Bercow. SNP MP Douglas Chapman also abstained.Sandpit said:A well written and thought provoking piece, thanks Alastair.
I agree that it’s probably time for him to step down, he’s been a reasonably good referee but has increasingly become the story - not a good thing for someone who is supposed to be impartial, and more importantly be seen to be impartial.
I can see him wanting to stay on until we leave the EU and all the associated legislation passes. I think he wants to see himself at the centre of it. There is also the issue that it will be difficult to find any MP without a strong view on the subject (Jeremy Corbyn excepted!) so it might be better to appoint a new Speaker once Brexit is no longer a live political issue.
The Commons also needs to think carefully about how they police themselves. That an investigation into the Speaker for personal abuse can be blocked by a committee he chairs and consisting of people appointed by him is out of order.
The focus has been on Chope but John Stevenson and Kate Green also voted against investigating Bercow. This vote did not split along party lines.
One wonders if the outcome would have been different had the lay members of the Committee been able to vote. Personally I think the allegations should have been investigated and that all three MPs who voted against investigation were badly wrong. It may turn out that there is no truth in the allegations but simply brushing them under the carpet without investigation is wrong.0 -
Well they must be making some sort of contingency plans to cope with the unlikely no-deal-at-all scenario.rcs1000 said:
Airbus didn't exist as a company before 2000, before that it was a loose consortium of national aerospace companies.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, saw a clip of Alex Deane[sp] doing the Sky paper review, and referring to Airbus' identical threat if we didn't join the single currency.
That being said, I doubt Airbus could move wing production rapidly, so I'd be surprised if they actually did anything.
They’ve said in plain terms that the transition timescale of two years is far too short to make substantial changes to the existing supply chain, so they are hardly using scaremongering threats. What is at stake is plans for future production.0 -
Exactly so. But while Airbus is big and headline worthy it is under the same pressures as other businesses. Shutting up shop and moving abroad overnight isn't going to be a realistic option for ongoing projects. But starting new ones is a totally different story. If what I am seeing is anything to go by even if we stopped Brexit tomorrow we've already lost a load of opportunities.Nigelb said:
Well they must be making some sort of contingency plans to cope with the unlikely no-deal-at-all scenario.rcs1000 said:
Airbus didn't exist as a company before 2000, before that it was a loose consortium of national aerospace companies.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, saw a clip of Alex Deane[sp] doing the Sky paper review, and referring to Airbus' identical threat if we didn't join the single currency.
That being said, I doubt Airbus could move wing production rapidly, so I'd be surprised if they actually did anything.
They’ve said in plain terms that the transition timescale of two years is far too short to make substantial changes to the existing supply chain, so they are hardly using scaremongering threats. What is at stake is plans for future production.0 -
I’m sure that’s true, but Bercow is in place.Philip_Thompson said:
There's a difference between having expressed an opinion once and having the decorum to realise putting a 'bollocks to Brexit' bumper sticker on your car while you're meant to appear impartial is a bad idea. An 'Up you to the EU' sticker would be just as bad.Nigelb said:
And any replacement would be equally contentious for that very reason, even mild mannered Lindsay Hoyle. Not expressing some sort of opinion on the matter would probably be untenable if there were to be a contest.SouthamObserver said:Interesting.
MPs decide, don’t they? If they want Bercow to stay, I guess he will. Given the decision he has to make on the meaningful vote that in and of itself would be very significant.
It’s quite possible that Bercow will stay for some time.
I suspect Hoyle would never have done that.
The consideration is rather whether MPs want the contest and all its complications should he go. Will either side want an ‘impartial’ Speaker on this particular issue, whatever impartial might mean in this context ?
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There’s still a conflict.prh47bridge said:
The Speaker does not chair the Committee on Standards nor does it consist of people appointed by him. It is appointed by the House and is currently chaired by Sir Kevin Barron. As chair, Barron only votes if a casting vote is required so did not vote on Bercow. SNP MP Douglas Chapman also abstained.Sandpit said:A well written and thought provoking piece, thanks Alastair.
I agree that it’s probably time for him to step down, he’s been a reasonably good referee but has increasingly become the story - not a good thing for someone who is supposed to be impartial, and more importantly be seen to be impartial.
I can see him wanting to stay on until we leave the EU and all the associated legislation passes. I think he wants to see himself at the centre of it. There is also the issue that it will be difficult to find any MP without a strong view on the subject (Jeremy Corbyn excepted!) so it might be better to appoint a new Speaker once Brexit is no longer a live political issue.
The Commons also needs to think carefully about how they police themselves. That an investigation into the Speaker for personal abuse can be blocked by a committee he chairs and consisting of people appointed by him is out of order.
The focus has been on Chope but John Stevenson and Kate Green also voted against investigating Bercow. This vote did not split along party lines.
One wonders if the outcome would have been different had the lay members of the Committee been able to vote. Personally I think the allegations should have been investigated and that all three MPs who voted against investigation were badly wrong. It may turn out that there is no truth in the allegations but simply brushing them under the carpet without investigation is wrong.
The Speaker can make an MP’s life in the Chamber much harder. You can’t have a situation like that if you want an independent judgement0 -
2020 might be a little early for JMcA but he is the natural successor to Trump in 2024.rcs1000 said:
#mcafee20240 -
And he wouldn’t have drawn a Boeing 737-800 either, judging by the wingtips.MarqueeMark said:
If cartoonist Morten Morland knew his planes, he would have drawn a Beluga that carries the wings.....Scott_P said:0 -
Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.0
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It would need that plus some economic heavy weather for which Brexit could be conveniently blamed. Not impossible.Recidivist said:Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.
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That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.Recidivist said:Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.
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You are quite right. But if we've learnt anything over the last couple of years it is that the foreseeable future isn't all that far into the future.Philip_Thompson said:
That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.Recidivist said:Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.
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The stupid old fucker is 70. 2022 (assuming May's Ship of Fools stays off the rocks that long) will be his last GE, win or lose.Recidivist said:
That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.0 -
Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.0 -
How would you design such a system, given the difficulties and positions involved - someone like a high court judge writing a report with findings for a public standards committee? Something is seriously wrong when there are NDAs in the House of Commons being signed at almost the same rate as in a Hollywood producer’s office!Charles said:
There’s still a conflict.prh47bridge said:
The Speaker does not chair the Committee on Standards nor does it consist of people appointed by him. It is appointed by the House and is currently chaired by Sir Kevin Barron. As chair, Barron only votes if a casting vote is required so did not vote on Bercow. SNP MP Douglas Chapman also abstained.Sandpit said:A well written and thought provoking piece, thanks Alastair.
I agree that it’s probably time for him to step down, he’s been a reasonably good referee but has increasingly become the story - not a good thing for someone who is supposed to be impartial, and more importantly be seen to be impartial.
I can see him wanting to stay on until we leave the EU and all the associated legislation passes. I think he wants to see himself at the centre of it. There is also the issue that it will be difficult to find any MP without a strong view on the subject (Jeremy Corbyn excepted!) so it might be better to appoint a new Speaker once Brexit is no longer a live political issue.
The Commons also needs to think carefully about how they police themselves. That an investigation into the Speaker for personal abuse can be blocked by a committee he chairs and consisting of people appointed by him is out of order.
The focus has been on Chope but John Stevenson and Kate Green also voted against investigating Bercow. This vote did not split along party lines.
One wonders if the outcome would have been different had the lay members of the Committee been able to vote. Personally I think the allegations should have been investigated and that all three MPs who voted against investigation were badly wrong. It may turn out that there is no truth in the allegations but simply brushing them under the carpet without investigation is wrong.
The Speaker can make an MP’s life in the Chamber much harder. You can’t have a situation like that if you want an independent judgement0 -
A 'Williamson'. Is this the new word for a massive overreach?0
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Am interesting analysis. I can see that Bercow has been an effective Speaker in many ways. That he is a bit pompous and loves the sound of his own voice is neither here nor there when it comes to that.
Two specific example I can immediately think of undermine his effectiveness. One was the business about not inviting Trump. Not because it was not something the Commons would approve of - they would - but because apparently it was a decision that us not his alone and he should have discussed it with the others first, it was very arrogant not to. The second was his decision to try to appoint a clerk who was not qualified for half the role, his defence being he wanted to split the role but had been blocked. The splitting probably made sense but it's not right to make a bad decision in protest. It shows his stubborness.
So should he go? The bullying accusations have to be a concern, there is no need to treat people in the alleged manner, but given he'll not admit it or be found guilty of it even if he should go due to needing to be above reproach how does it happen?
9 years is plenty of time to be Speaker, but I think it's right he won't be going this year.0 -
And how old is the stupid old fucker in the US ?Dura_Ace said:
The stupid old fucker is 70. 2022 (assuming May's Ship of Fools stays off the rocks that long) will be his last GE, win or lose.Recidivist said:
That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.
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And if he doesn’t want to retire?Dura_Ace said:
The stupid old fucker is 70. 2022 (assuming May's Ship of Fools stays off the rocks that long) will be his last GE, win or lose.Recidivist said:
That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.0 -
Labour might get there eventually, they've rolled back their position somewhat already. But it feels a ways off.Recidivist said:Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.
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No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.0 -
That has the potential to be entertaining.Scrapheap_as_was said:Interesting read... Who would I get as my prospective MP though to replace him in the peoples republic of Buckingham Bercow... The evening standard editor looks capable... And young with some time on his hands.
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There should be an automatic investigation with a report made to the whole house. I’d create a new role at HCJ level to do it permanently. Need to find a way to avoid frivolous complaints - perhaps some kind of penalty?Sandpit said:
How would you design such a system, given the difficulties and positions involved - someone like a high court judge writing a report with findings for a public standards committee? Something is seriously wrong when there are NDAs in the House of Commons being signed at almost the same rate as in a Hollywood producer’s office!Charles said:
There’s still a conflict.prh47bridge said:
The Speaker does not chair the Committee on Standards nor does it consist of people appointed by him. It is appointed by the House and is currently chaired by Sir Kevin Barron. As chair, Barron only votes if a casting vote is required so did not vote on Bercow. SNP MP Douglas Chapman also abstained.Sandpit said:A well written and thought provoking piece, thanks Alastair.
I agree that it’s probably time for him to step down, he’s been a reasonably good referee but has increasingly become the story - not a good thing for someone who is supposed to be impartial, and more importantly be seen to be impartial.
I can see him wanting to stay on until we leave the EU and all the associated legislation passes. I think he wants to see himself at the centre of it. There is also the issue that it will be difficult to find any MP without a strong view on the subject (Jeremy Corbyn excepted!) so it might be better to appoint a new Speaker once Brexit is no longer a live political issue.
The Commons also needs to think carefully about how they police themselves. That an investigation into the Speaker for personal abuse can be blocked by a committee he chairs and consisting of people appointed by him is out of order.
The focus has been on Chope but John Stevenson and Kate Green also voted against investigating Bercow. This vote did not split along party lines.
One wonders if the outcome would have been different had the lay members of the Committee been able to vote. Personally I think the allegations should have been investigated and that all three MPs who voted against investigation were badly wrong. It may turn out that there is no truth in the allegations but simply brushing them under the carpet without investigation is wrong.
The Speaker can make an MP’s life in the Chamber much harder. You can’t have a situation like that if you want an independent judgement0 -
Mr. Recidivist, there was a referendum post-joining, and a referendum pre-leaving. There are also examples on Scottish independence and changing the voting system.
After a majority voted to leave, a government that didn't have majority backing taking us out would be politically courageous.0 -
They might well be and legally are not required but politically it might be difficult to rejoin without one. As we all know not everyone who votes for a party agrees with all its proposals, even big ones, and even other rejoining parties might barely get over 50%.Recidivist said:
No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.
It could be done, but it'd be very bold. I feel like the manifesto woukd need to be clear rejoining would be done without a referendum.0 -
Don't forget that rejoining requires the unanimous consent of all 27 member states. They're not going to want a hokey-cokey Britain going in out again and again. If we seek to rejoin then not only would our precedent expect a referendum I think the rest of Europe would too.Recidivist said:
No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.0 -
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That's actually part of his shtick I don't like so much. We always act like the public don't like how mps behave in the chamber but i don't think they care, and they like seeing the chaos and Bercow does too I suspect. He's a grandstander and with his clearly prepared put downs gives the impression of liking that he gets the opportunity to slap people down in theatrical fashion.IanB2 said:Like Alastair, I am a fan of Bercow, who has been willing to be bold and firm with Parliament and government in a way that stands out from many of his predecessors. It's a shame that his calling out of individual MPs who behave like kiddies in the chamber hasn't picked up more traction in the wider world.
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Errrrrrr the deputy speaker is regularly praised for the way he does his job.FrankBooth said:Anyone thinking of trying to see off Bercow ought to consider who might replace him. I cannot think of anyone obvious.
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One of the owners of a shit coin he promised to pump?rcs1000 said:twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/1010172001741352960
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It certainly wouldn't "have" to be held. Any government with a working majority could whip through a bill to apply to rejoin the EU if that's what they wanted to do.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
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Mr. Borough, anyone know what's going on with Charlie Elphicke[sp]?0
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There is no chance that rejoining with a referendum will fly politically.Recidivist said:
No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.
You simply don't want one because you fear you'd lose it.0 -
I don't think Labour would see that as fair if it is their turn, as it were.SquareRoot said:One thing to note is that there hasn't been a Tory Speaker for a long time. Bercow is a Tory in name only, and can be discounted as having been Tory.
How about they appoint a Labour MP who I'd LINO as a compromise?0 -
It wouldn't fly either here or on the continent. In order to get 27 nations to unanimously take us back after all the disruption of Brexit we'd need to demonstrate we were serious about joining and that would require a referendum.Casino_Royale said:
There is no chance that rejoining with a referendum will fly politically.Recidivist said:
No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.
You simply don't want one because you fear you'd lose it.0 -
I wouldn’t mind that so much if it weren’t done on what seems to be an inconsistent basis - and if it weren’t behaviour he indulges in himself for time to time.kle4 said:
That's actually part of his shtick I don't like so much. We always act like the public don't like how mps behave in the chamber but i don't think they care, and they like seeing the chaos and Bercow does too I suspect. He's a grandstander and with his clearly prepared put downs gives the impression of liking that he gets the opportunity to slap people down in theatrical fashion.IanB2 said:Like Alastair, I am a fan of Bercow, who has been willing to be bold and firm with Parliament and government in a way that stands out from many of his predecessors. It's a shame that his calling out of individual MPs who behave like kiddies in the chamber hasn't picked up more traction in the wider world.
0 -
Why? We have several MPs over 80. Certainly most retire before then but its no guarantee.Dura_Ace said:
The stupid old fucker is 70. 2022 (assuming May's Ship of Fools stays off the rocks that long) will be his last GE, win or lose.Recidivist said:
That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.0 -
It also explains why ultra-Remainers have such difficulty winning over mainstream Conservatives.Recidivist said:Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.
Whenever they hear "where's Jeremy Corbyn?" chanted on such a march it smears the pro-EU cause with socialism, and other leftist causes, leading them to steer well clear.0 -
Now is a bad time to change Speaker. The last thing we need is a contest between a "Remain Speaker" and a "Leave Speaker", at least Bercow predates that nonsense.0
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Mr. Jonathan, he's got a sticker in his car saying "Bollocks to Brexit" has he not?
The idea Bercow is above such EU bias (one way or the other) is not credible.0 -
None of them are trying to PM for five years though.kle4 said:
Why? We have several MPs over 80. Certainly most retire before then but its no guarantee.Dura_Ace said:
The stupid old fucker is 70. 2022 (assuming May's Ship of Fools stays off the rocks that long) will be his last GE, win or lose.Recidivist said:
That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.0 -
Almost everyone on this thread agrees that Hoyle is a ready-made unity replacement that is neither perceived as especially Remain or Leave.Jonathan said:Now is a bad time to change Speaker. The last thing we need is a contest between a "Remain Speaker" and a "Leave Speaker", at least Bercow predates that nonsense.
0 -
More than being serious they'd need assurance we wouldn't change our minds again! Another reason why next time if we're on we will in on the Euro and everything else.Philip_Thompson said:
It wouldn't fly either here or on the continent. In order to get 27 nations to unanimously take us back after all the disruption of Brexit we'd need to demonstrate we were serious about joining and that would require a referendum.Casino_Royale said:
There is no chance that rejoining with a referendum will fly politically.Recidivist said:
No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.
You simply don't want one because you fear you'd lose it.0 -
On topic, an excellent article. There is, I'm afraid, rather a lot of bullying in politics.
It's usually by people who've never developed the full suite of people skills that'd be essential to any normal career in the private sector, but, instead, have had their adolescent tendencies buttressed by the immense egoism and sense of entitlement that success in the political sphere can often bring.0 -
Mr. kle4, new members, I believe, are required to sign up to the euro (not immediately, but to prepare for such).0
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If I were this Government, though, I'd pass a law to make such a referendum a legal requirement (particularly since the 2011 European Union Act is now being repealed).kle4 said:
More than being serious they'd need assurance we wouldn't change our minds again! Another reason why next time if we're on we will in on the Euro and everything else.Philip_Thompson said:
It wouldn't fly either here or on the continent. In order to get 27 nations to unanimously take us back after all the disruption of Brexit we'd need to demonstrate we were serious about joining and that would require a referendum.Casino_Royale said:
There is no chance that rejoining with a referendum will fly politically.Recidivist said:
No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.
You simply don't want one because you fear you'd lose it.
I can see a coalition of the left/soft-left trying to force that down our throats in Parliament, some time in the late 2020s by relying on some loaded opinion polls.0 -
Going to be dry, I think.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Good article, Mr. Meeks. There's also the matter of Bercow saying he would've stepped down by now.
F1: will see if I can find any bets. And must check the weather forecast.
For the race, much depends on the start. If Hamilton keeps his nose in front, I think he’ll just drive off into the distance. If either Bottas or Vettel get the drop on him, it could be much more interesting.
Leclerc and Grosjean’s odds worth a look for top 6 ?
0 -
There’s a shedload of bullying in the private sector.Casino_Royale said:On topic, an excellent article. There is, I'm afraid, rather a lot of bullying in politics.
It's usually by people who've never developed the full suite of people skills that'd be essential to any normal career in the private sector, but, instead, have had their adolescent tendencies buttressed by the immense egoism and sense of entitlement that success in the political sphere can often bring.
0 -
John Woodcock?kle4 said:
I don't think Labour would see that as fair if it is their turn, as it were.SquareRoot said:One thing to note is that there hasn't been a Tory Speaker for a long time. Bercow is a Tory in name only, and can be discounted as having been Tory.
How about they appoint a Labour MP who I'd LINO as a compromise?
0 -
If his accusations about processes not being followed are correct then he is right to be mad, and even if he is not that he is so publicly saying the process us being abused because he is a Corbyn critic surely means there's a high chance he goes.rottenborough said:Woodcock on the brink?
https://twitter.com/JWoodcockMP/status/1010790556044353536
Granted rumours have done the rounds before, but it's another of those 'this cannot go on' scenarios.
Question is would he stick around as an indy or just resign?0 -
It’s obvious and beyond dispute now the government and NHS are operating a “carousel” policy (ref Logan’s Run). Anyone, any age, who are clearly continued burden on the tax payer and contributing to the social services crisis that is dragging NHS down below the water line, are being quickly removed from the equation.
Okay NHS clearly doing it, but how can we also blame the government?
How can it be going on for so long without the ministry, and the longest servicing health secretary, aware?0 -
True, but though unusual now people used to survive even if they lost.Dura_Ace said:
None of them are trying to PM for five years though.kle4 said:
Why? We have several MPs over 80. Certainly most retire before then but its no guarantee.Dura_Ace said:
The stupid old fucker is 70. 2022 (assuming May's Ship of Fools stays off the rocks that long) will be his last GE, win or lose.Recidivist said:
That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.0 -
Mr. B, a forecast, from a little while ago, admittedly, suggested 60% chance of rain for each hour of the race.
Leclerc's had brake problems at recent races and the top 6 are in a league of their own (although DNFs are possible). Grosjean starts only 10th, or lower if he gets a penalty.
Leclerc is a talented chap, though, and Grosjean was performing very well until his crash.0 -
As an 80 year old, most of the time I feel I could still do most of what I did at 70, but then again, some of the time I don’t! And I know there are some things I, sadly, can’t do. Also I could some of what I did at 60, but not by any means as much.Dura_Ace said:
None of them are trying to PM for five years though.kle4 said:
Why? We have several MPs over 80. Certainly most retire before then but its no guarantee.Dura_Ace said:
The stupid old fucker is 70. 2022 (assuming May's Ship of Fools stays off the rocks that long) will be his last GE, win or lose.Recidivist said:
That's not going to happen in the Conservative Party for the foreseeable future and it will never happen under lifelong Eurosceptic Corbyn either. If Corbyn goes then maybe.
I’m also not as sure I’m going to be here for another ten years as I did when i was 70!0 -
We have my 19 year old niece and her friend staying with us at Dura Ace Towers at the moment. This is what I have discovered about the politics of youth from this focus group of two young women (Both undergrads, one maths, one computer science.)
1. They get 100% of their news from social media. They never watch television or read newspapers.
2. They don't really understand the ins and outs of Brexit but think it's "stupid". My impression is they associate it with old people who live in places like Hull and think it of it as uncool as smoking cigarettes or having a caravan.
3. Corbyn was so 2016. He is "boring".
4. Neither of them intend to vote, ever, unless it's "something to do with animals". Animal rights or something, I dunno, they both fucking hate fox hunting and are convinced it's still legal.
5. They like Macron but not his wife.
6. They despise Trump and his wife.
7. I think the country might be utterly fucked.0 -
Rejoining would also entail a significant additional monetary contribution (tax rises, or steal from the NHS?) and the ripping up of post-Brexit trade deals (annoying the rest of the world outside the EU), as well as a commitment to join the Euro, Shengen and no rebate. Outside will also be the status quo. That’s a very big ask for a referendum. Which of course, is why those in favour of the EU are trying to stop us leaving in the first place.Philip_Thompson said:
It wouldn't fly either here or on the continent. In order to get 27 nations to unanimously take us back after all the disruption of Brexit we'd need to demonstrate we were serious about joining and that would require a referendum.Casino_Royale said:
There is no chance that rejoining with a referendum will fly politically.Recidivist said:
No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.
You simply don't want one because you fear you'd lose it.0 -
In addition the EU bandits will say no opt outs, no rebates & the Euro to get back in, so it ain't gonna happen.Casino_Royale said:
It also explains why ultra-Remainers have such difficulty winning over mainstream Conservatives.Recidivist said:Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.
Whenever they hear "where's Jeremy Corbyn?" chanted on such a march it smears the pro-EU cause with socialism, and other leftist causes, leading them to steer well clear.0 -
The idea that there are not "immense egos" or a "sense of entitlement" in the private sector is genuinely funny. It must be satire.SouthamObserver said:
There’s a shedload of bullying in the private sector.Casino_Royale said:On topic, an excellent article. There is, I'm afraid, rather a lot of bullying in politics.
It's usually by people who've never developed the full suite of people skills that'd be essential to any normal career in the private sector, but, instead, have had their adolescent tendencies buttressed by the immense egoism and sense of entitlement that success in the political sphere can often bring.0 -
If they’re anything like my graduate granddaughter and grandddaughter-in-law (to be), who thought, IIRC rather like them at 19, in 10 years time they’ll be keen to vote. At the last election it was Labour, because of the way they perceived the Tories were dealing with their occupation.... teaching.Dura_Ace said:We have my 19 year old niece and her friend staying with us at Dura Ace Towers at the moment. This is what I have discovered about the politics of youth from this focus group of two young women (Both undergrads, one maths, one computer science.)
1. They get 100% of their news from social media. They never watch television or read newspapers.
2. They don't really understand the ins and outs of Brexit but think it's "stupid". My impression is they associate it with old people who live in places like Hull and think it of it as uncool as smoking cigarettes or having a caravan.
3. Corbyn was so 2016. He is "boring".
4. Neither of them intend to vote, ever, unless it's "something to do with animals". Animal rights or something, I dunno, they both fucking hate fox hunting and are convinced it's still legal.
5. They like Macron but not his wife.
6. They despise Trump and his wife.
7. I think the country might be utterly fucked.0 -
If I were them I'd want a large majority in favour of rejoining too. Something not too far off the two-thirds in favour in 1975.Philip_Thompson said:
It wouldn't fly either here or on the continent. In order to get 27 nations to unanimously take us back after all the disruption of Brexit we'd need to demonstrate we were serious about joining and that would require a referendum.Casino_Royale said:
There is no chance that rejoining with a referendum will fly politically.Recidivist said:
No referendum is necessary. We joined without a referendum first time. And there has already been an election, 1983, where a party included leaving the EU as part of its programme without any mention of a referendum. Also I can't be the only person who has come to the conclusion that holding any referendum on anything is a bad idea. I think you might find referendums are off the agenda for a generation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Recidivist, given precedent, a referendum would have to be held first (unless a party won over 50% of the vote in an election, which seems unlikely).
Mr. Ace, maybe. That's fairly old, but he doesn't seem in ill health or doddery.
F1: still no more markets. It's rather odd.
You simply don't want one because you fear you'd lose it.0 -
The socialist logic of Brexit breaks out rather too often among Tories.Casino_Royale said:
It also explains why ultra-Remainers have such difficulty winning over mainstream Conservatives.Recidivist said:Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.
Whenever they hear "where's Jeremy Corbyn?" chanted on such a march it smears the pro-EU cause with socialism, and other leftist causes, leading them to steer well clear.
https://twitter.com/dcbmep/status/1010122002378747905?s=210 -
And it's up to the board and shareholders to deal with that. This is up to the government to deal with. The reason it's not us that the person charged with investigation of bullying is a bully himself. He needs to go.SouthamObserver said:
There’s a shedload of bullying in the private sector.Casino_Royale said:On topic, an excellent article. There is, I'm afraid, rather a lot of bullying in politics.
It's usually by people who've never developed the full suite of people skills that'd be essential to any normal career in the private sector, but, instead, have had their adolescent tendencies buttressed by the immense egoism and sense of entitlement that success in the political sphere can often bring.0 -
Eh? Corbyn is from the left wing tradition that has opposed the EU rather longer and more consistently than parvenus to the Brexit cause such as Mrs May. My point was that the pro-EU activists will realise that they can join Labour and have an influence on the party's policy towards Europe. That doesn't have to mean actually getting rid of Corbyn himself - just getting the party conference on board is sufficient. The Conservative's constitution isn't quite as rewarding to the active and committed, but party members still have enough influence that an influx of pro-Europeans couldn't be entirely ignored.Casino_Royale said:
It also explains why ultra-Remainers have such difficulty winning over mainstream Conservatives.Recidivist said:Important as Airbus and BMW stories are, I think the big thing was the "Where's Jeremy Corbyn" chants on the march yesterday. It only needs one of the main parties to come round to rejoining and to win an election on that policy and we are back in. There were obviously plenty of activists on the streets yesterday who will have worked that out.
Whenever they hear "where's Jeremy Corbyn?" chanted on such a march it smears the pro-EU cause with socialism, and other leftist causes, leading them to steer well clear.
As to your dig about me not wanting a referendum because I fear it wouldn't have the outcome I desire, well yes you are right. I have no idea what the outcome of a new referendum would be. Neither do you. The last one defied the predictions of the most experienced politicians, the most assiduous pundits and the most diligent pollsters. Nigel Farage even conceded defeat on the evening of the count. We are still arguing over what the result means. The answer to a binary question seems a crazy way to make an important and complex policy decision. I'd much rather choose between two programmes proposed by a team of people committed to implementing them if they win the most support.0 -
https://news.sky.com/story/liam-fox-prepared-to-accept-a-longer-brexit-transition-period-11414952
Liam Fox says extending the transition period is fine.0 -
Does anyone know if there’s the equivalent of corporate manslaughter charges in the USA?
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/06/22/1914225/uber-driver-was-streaming-hulu-just-before-fatal-self-driving-car-crash-says-police
The most astonishing story, they employed a “safety driver” who was a felon on minimum wage and with minimal training, to watch over a self driving car that had a bunch of critical safety systems disabled that the driver didn’t know about, and the driver was watching TV on her phone rather than watching the road.0
