politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If you can’t join them, beat them: Denmark, football, Maastric
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I think brazil might be testing that theory...they can’t defend, but if they click like they did in the last 10-15 of the game yesterday they will beat anybody (especially as the Germans appear to be equally useless as defending).SouthamObserver said:
England can't defend. Whoever wins the World Cup will be able to. We should just enjoy the ride. I think this England team will come home with an enhanced reputation. And the good news is that we are now beginning to produce high quality players from U16 up. The only challenge will be in finding them teams to play for.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is still early -- many teams, including England, have not even played their second game -- but I am inclined to agree. The draw might be opening up for England and the layers have taken their eye off the ball. Although still outsiders, England, Portugal and Croatia may represent a smidge of value. I'd say England is on a par with Belgium yet we are 11/1 generally and they are 8/1.Foxy said:
I would say there was value already. Quite a few bigger teams have faltered already, but it was very nearly a draw against Tunisia.AlastairMeeks said:I’m trying to work out the optimal point for laying England. After Panama but before Belgium?
Spain or Portugal for me. Portugal has the better odds.0 -
Obviously most world growth will come from under-developed economies. But that does not make 26 developed economies on our doorstep less important. I still struggle with the idea that EU membership prevents us doing business in the rest of the world. It does not seem to have stopped other EU countries. Our company does well over 50% of its business outside the EU. We have doubled the size of our Hong Kong office in less than a year and just done a huge event in San Francisco, with over 650 delegates and £1 million plus in sponsorship.Sandpit said:
Disagree. 90% of world growth in the coming years will be outside the EU. As that organisation becomes increasingly protectionist, insular and overbearing with regulation, the biggest opportunities lie elsewhere. Like every change it will take some adjustment, but those companies willing to seize the opportunities will do very well in the future. A decade from now, I believe that most people will only be complaining that we didn’t leave the EU earlier.SouthamObserver said:
The rest of the world sees a country inflicting harm on itself for no discernable gain.Sandpit said:
Believe me that that’s not how the rest of the world see a G7 country, member of the Security Council, soon to be the 4th biggest voice on the World Trade Organisation and one of the easiest countries in the world to do business or set up a business.FF43 said:
Astute point. "Global Britain" is a image of bygone age that people prefer to a disconcerting present and future.SouthamObserver said:
Nostalgia is the dominant force on the left and the right. The UK gives every sign of being a country that believes its best days are in the past.swing_voter said:
A great read......I would arguethat the populist UK right, aided by the Daily Mail, Express and a misguided sense of nostalgia of a B&W 1950s Britain were what turned folk against the EU -we suffer from a very powerful nostalgia and to this day I see it as one of the national malaisewelshowl said:
Delors was spectacularly successful, but at a price, he turned enough of the U.K. electorate (mostly on the right) from mildly positive to so negative they were set on the exit path.DavidL said:. .
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You are more optimistic than I am. Simply, the US agriculture lobby is enormously powerful and has Donald Trump, Democrats and Republicans in its pocket. It would (probably correctly) think that if agriculture is delayed, then it is lost. And I simply can't see a situation where the UK government allows US agricultural products in unless they meet UK standards.Sandpit said:I think a US-UK trade deal would need to be done in stages, otherwise it would be a neverending negotiation as the scope is so big. It makes sense to get agreement on the easy bits first where standards are similar, before moving later to the trickier areas.
Stage 1 could be for manufactured good and machines, stage 2 for professional services, stages 3 and 4 for the difficult stuff like agri and pharma. If we allowed say 18 months to negotiate and agree each stage, it could lead to the more difficult industries understanding the mutual benefits of agreeing a deal.0 -
I seriously doubt that the agricultural lobby would allow for agriculture to be left to late stage deals. They would insist upon their puppet congressional representatives the importance of being in stage one of any long term deal. I don't see any way around the agricultural lobby when dealing with the US. It's why I don't think any serious trade deal will not be possible.Sandpit said:
I think a US-UK trade deal would need to be done in stages, otherwise it would be a neverending negotiation as the scope is so big. It makes sense to get agreement on the easy bits first where standards are similar, before moving later to the trickier areas.
Stage 1 could be for manufactured good and machines, stage 2 for professional services, stages 3 and 4 for the difficult stuff like agri and pharma. If we allowed say 18 months to negotiate and agree each stage, it could lead to the more difficult industries understanding the mutual benefits of agreeing a deal.0 -
A decade from now Chuka Umunna might be PM and have taken us back into the EEA and the Customs UnionSandpit said:
Disagree. 90% of world growth in the coming years will be outside the EU. As that organisation becomes increasingly protectionist, insular and overbearing with regulation, the biggest opportunities lie elsewhere. Like every change it will take some adjustment, but those companies willing to seize the opportunities will do very well in the future. A decade from now, I believe that most people will only be complaining that we didn’t leave the EU earlier.SouthamObserver said:
The rest of the world sees a country inflicting harm on itself for no discernable gain.Sandpit said:
Believe me that that’s not how the rest of the world see a G7 country, member of the Security Council, soon to be the 4th biggest voice on the World Trade Organisation and one of the easiest countries in the world to do business or set up a business.FF43 said:
Astute point. "Global Britain" is a image of bygone age that people prefer to a disconcerting present and future.SouthamObserver said:
Nostalgia is the dominant force on the left and the right. The UK gives every sign of being a country that believes its best days are in the past.swing_voter said:
A great read......I would arguethat the populist UK right, aided by the Daily Mail, Express and a misguided sense of nostalgia of a B&W 1950s Britain were what turned folk against the EU -we suffer from a very powerful nostalgia and to this day I see it as one of the national malaisewelshowl said:
Delors was spectacularly successful, but at a price, he turned enough of the U.K. electorate (mostly on the right) from mildly positive to so negative they were set on the exit path.DavidL said:. .
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Nobody would take any notice of you if you were to say, "By 2030, GDP per head in the UK will be $48,000, but it would have been $50,000 if Brexit had not happened."SquareRoot said:
There are loons out there who predict Armageddon all the time.. There was a loon economist who predicted 5 million unemployed.. I forget his name as he has likewise been forgotten.RobD said:
Unless he has a parallel universe in which the UK did not leave the EU, I'm not sure how seriously to take him. It's costing the treasury £440mn a week, yet borrowing figures at at their best in 13 years?AlastairMeeks said:0 -
Of course you gain more credibility if you make predictions before events, not after.Sean_F said:
Nobody would take any notice of you if you were to say, "By 2030, GDP per head in the UK will be $48,000, but it would have been $50,000 if Brexit had not happened."SquareRoot said:
There are loons out there who predict Armageddon all the time.. There was a loon economist who predicted 5 million unemployed.. I forget his name as he has likewise been forgotten.RobD said:
Unless he has a parallel universe in which the UK did not leave the EU, I'm not sure how seriously to take him. It's costing the treasury £440mn a week, yet borrowing figures at at their best in 13 years?AlastairMeeks said:0 -
My friend - who was born British, but you'd never know - has a whole spiel about how supporting agribusiness is a key part of "Making America Great Again". He's made his message very appealing to the Trump administration.MaxPB said:
Yes, that's what I meant by, err, insist. That's still one thing Trump should do, drain the swamp. If anything he's made it worse.rcs1000 said:
I have a friend who is a lobbyist for a large US agribusiness. His budget to wine and dine Congressmen and Senators and take them on "fact finding trips" is well into six figures, and may be approaching seven.MaxPB said:
No it wouldn't the US agriculture lobby would insist that the UK open up its market to their poor quality subsidised crap produce, the UK would decline on safety and quality standards and the talks would break down.Sandpit said:
Yes, most of the cars we export to the US are high-end models. The only mass-market car is I think the Honda Jazz from Swindon, that’s also made in US factories.
A reciprocal deal for tarrif-free trade in manufactured good and components should be relatively straightforward for the UK and US to agree.
(And I'm sure he'd find a message that resonated well with a Democratic administration.)0 -
Not obvious from this chart why leaving "protectionist, insular" EU, which does a lot more international trade than we do, helps the UKSandpit said:
Disagree. 90% of world growth in the coming years will be outside the EU. As that organisation becomes increasingly protectionist, insular and overbearing with regulation, the biggest opportunities lie elsewhere. Like every change it will take some adjustment, but those companies willing to seize the opportunities will do very well in the future. A decade from now, I believe that most people will only be complaining that we didn’t leave the EU earlier.SouthamObserver said:
The rest of the world sees a country inflicting harm on itself for no discernable gain.Sandpit said:
Believe me that that’s not how the rest of the world see a G7 country, member of the Security Council, soon to be the 4th biggest voice on the World Trade Organisation and one of the easiest countries in the world to do business or set up a business.FF43 said:
Astute point. "Global Britain" is a image of bygone age that people prefer to a disconcerting present and future.SouthamObserver said:
Nostalgia is the dominant force on the left and the right. The UK gives every sign of being a country that believes its best days are in the past.swing_voter said:
A great read......I would arguethat the populist UK right, aided by the Daily Mail, Express and a misguided sense of nostalgia of a B&W 1950s Britain were what turned folk against the EU -we suffer from a very powerful nostalgia and to this day I see it as one of the national malaisewelshowl said:
Delors was spectacularly successful, but at a price, he turned enough of the U.K. electorate (mostly on the right) from mildly positive to so negative they were set on the exit path.DavidL said:. .
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They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese Trump could easily exempt British owned carmakers from the new tariffs and see no real impact in the rustbelt especially as most Trump voters backed Brexit anyway I doubt they would be botheredFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald Trump, when he visits the UK next month, to announce that he’s exempting British cars from his new 20% tariff on EU cars? We all know he can’t do that while we are in the EU, but his US audience wouldn’t understand that and it would focus minds here and in Brussels that there are advantages for us of being outside.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles make unprecedented demands on anyone operating a popular website to monitor copyrighted material and to pay fees to news organizations when linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump is a New York real estate magnate. He sees every deal as a way to screw people, and that includes his own staff and suppliers. I see no reason why we in the UK would be exempt. He has no friends because he is a narcissist sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
Indeed, leaving the EU FTA's and starting from scratch is likely to worsen terms of trade, even for non EU destinations.FF43 said:
Not obvious from this chart why leaving "protectionist, insular" EU, which does a lot more international trade than we do, helps the UKSandpit said:
Disagree. 90% of world growth in the coming years will be outside the EU. As that organisation becomes increasingly protectionist, insular and overbearing with regulation, the biggest opportunities lie elsewhere. Like every change it will take some adjustment, but those companies willing to seize the opportunities will do very well in the future. A decade from now, I believe that most people will only be complaining that we didn’t leave the EU earlier.SouthamObserver said:
The rest of the world sees a country inflicting harm on itself for no discernable gain.Sandpit said:
Believe me that that’s not how the rest of the world see a G7 country, member of the Security Council, soon to be the 4th biggest voice on the World Trade Organisation and one of the easiest countries in the world to do business or set up a business.FF43 said:
Astute point. "Global Britain" is a image of bygone age that people prefer to a disconcerting present and future.SouthamObserver said:
Nostalgia is the dominant force on the left and the right. The UK gives every sign of being a country that believes its best days are in the past.swing_voter said:
A great read......I would arguethat the populist UK right, aided by the Daily Mail, Express and a misguided sense of nostalgia of a B&W 1950s Britain were what turned folk against the EU -we suffer from a very powerful nostalgia and to this day I see it as one of the national malaisewelshowl said:
Delors was spectacularly successful, but at a price, he turned enough of the U.K. electorate (mostly on the right) from mildly positive to so negative they were set on the exit path.DavidL said:. .
Losing one customer does not gain another.0 -
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to accept that most Americans, those in the heartlands especially, have next to no idea about what is going on outside of the US, so I'll leave it there :-DHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald Trump, when he visits the UK next month, to announce that he’s exempting British cars from his new 20% tariff on EU cars? We all know he can’t do that while we are in the EU, but his US audience wouldn’t understand that and it would focus minds here and in Brussels that there are advantages for us of being outside.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles make unprecedented demands on anyone operating a popular website to monitor copyrighted material and to pay fees to news organizations when linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%
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Er, unless you are George Osborne......Pulpstar said:
Of course you gain more credibility if you make predictions before events, not after.Sean_F said:
Nobody would take any notice of you if you were to say, "By 2030, GDP per head in the UK will be $48,000, but it would have been $50,000 if Brexit had not happened."SquareRoot said:
There are loons out there who predict Armageddon all the time.. There was a loon economist who predicted 5 million unemployed.. I forget his name as he has likewise been forgotten.RobD said:
Unless he has a parallel universe in which the UK did not leave the EU, I'm not sure how seriously to take him. It's costing the treasury £440mn a week, yet borrowing figures at at their best in 13 years?AlastairMeeks said:0 -
The way to get Trump to take notice is to say that what you are proposing was opposed by the Obama administration; or that it introduced what you want repealed.rcs1000 said:
My friend - who was born British, but you'd never know - has a whole spiel about how supporting agribusiness is a key part of "Making America Great Again". He's made his message very appealing to the Trump administration.MaxPB said:
Yes, that's what I meant by, err, insist. That's still one thing Trump should do, drain the swamp. If anything he's made it worse.rcs1000 said:
I have a friend who is a lobbyist for a large US agribusiness. His budget to wine and dine Congressmen and Senators and take them on "fact finding trips" is well into six figures, and may be approaching seven.MaxPB said:
No it wouldn't the US agriculture lobby would insist that the UK open up its market to their poor quality subsidised crap produce, the UK would decline on safety and quality standards and the talks would break down.Sandpit said:
Yes, most of the cars we export to the US are high-end models. The only mass-market car is I think the Honda Jazz from Swindon, that’s also made in US factories.
A reciprocal deal for tarrif-free trade in manufactured good and components should be relatively straightforward for the UK and US to agree.
(And I'm sure he'd find a message that resonated well with a Democratic administration.)
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Based on how little actual factual information British people know about the US politically I would suggest you are spot on.SouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to accept that most Americans, those in the heartlands especially, have next to no idea about what is going on outside of the US, so I'll leave it there :-DHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald Trump, when he visits the UK next month, to announce that he’s exempting British cars from his new 20% tariff on EU cars? We all know he can’t do that while we are in the EU, but his US audience wouldn’t understand that and it would focus minds here and in Brussels that there are advantages for us of being outside.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles make unprecedented demands on anyone operating a popular website to monitor copyrighted material and to pay fees to news organizations when linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
Add Spain to the list of countries who cannot defend. They'd be toast if Iran had a decent striker who could have put away several decent chances. We forgave the three goals Spain conceded to Cristiano Ronaldo and ten other men from Portugal but Iran confirmed the Spanish defence is shaky. Maybe sacking the Spanish manager two days before the start of the tournament was not the shrewdest move.FrancisUrquhart said:
I think brazil might be testing that theory...they can’t defend, but if they click like they did in the last 10-15 of the game yesterday they will beat anybody (especially as the Germans appear to be equally useless as defending).SouthamObserver said:
England can't defend. Whoever wins the World Cup will be able to. We should just enjoy the ride. I think this England team will come home with an enhanced reputation. And the good news is that we are now beginning to produce high quality players from U16 up. The only challenge will be in finding them teams to play for.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is still early -- many teams, including England, have not even played their second game -- but I am inclined to agree. The draw might be opening up for England and the layers have taken their eye off the ball. Although still outsiders, England, Portugal and Croatia may represent a smidge of value. I'd say England is on a par with Belgium yet we are 11/1 generally and they are 8/1.Foxy said:
I would say there was value already. Quite a few bigger teams have faltered already, but it was very nearly a draw against Tunisia.AlastairMeeks said:I’m trying to work out the optimal point for laying England. After Panama but before Belgium?
Spain or Portugal for me. Portugal has the better odds.0 -
Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.0 -
And then you need to factor in the immensely powerful healthcare lobby.rcs1000 said:
You are more optimistic than I am. Simply, the US agriculture lobby is enormously powerful and has Donald Trump, Democrats and Republicans in its pocket. It would (probably correctly) think that if agriculture is delayed, then it is lost. And I simply can't see a situation where the UK government allows US agricultural products in unless they meet UK standards.Sandpit said:I think a US-UK trade deal would need to be done in stages, otherwise it would be a neverending negotiation as the scope is so big. It makes sense to get agreement on the easy bits first where standards are similar, before moving later to the trickier areas.
Stage 1 could be for manufactured good and machines, stage 2 for professional services, stages 3 and 4 for the difficult stuff like agri and pharma. If we allowed say 18 months to negotiate and agree each stage, it could lead to the more difficult industries understanding the mutual benefits of agreeing a deal.
What's more, good luck getting past the unbelievably powerful Irish-American lobby if the UK is perceived to have shafted Ireland in any way.
We should stick to New Zealand.
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An institution which does not understand how the internet works or its possibilities risks hobbling its glorious future.rcs1000 said:
Simply: the EU does not have a proper feedback mechanism between voters or other interested parties and the rule setting bodies. I do not believe they are actively malevolent (unlike hunchman). I do believe that without proper feedback mechanisms, they will struggle to make good decisions.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. B, indeed, but it does highlight the complete ****ing ineptitude/malevolence of the EU's bureaucracy.
As with the rulings on the right to be forgotten or, as it ought to be called, the right to rewrite one’s own history (an idiotic idea) there is a strong strand in Continental politics of wishing to control the free flow of information and placing the protection of reputation above other considerations, including the facts. It is not something to be welcomed.0 -
I try and be an optimistrcs1000 said:
You are more optimistic than I am. Simply, the US agriculture lobby is enormously powerful and has Donald Trump, Democrats and Republicans in its pocket. It would (probably correctly) think that if agriculture is delayed, then it is lost. And I simply can't see a situation where the UK government allows US agricultural products in unless they meet UK standards.Sandpit said:I think a US-UK trade deal would need to be done in stages, otherwise it would be a neverending negotiation as the scope is so big. It makes sense to get agreement on the easy bits first where standards are similar, before moving later to the trickier areas.
Stage 1 could be for manufactured good and machines, stage 2 for professional services, stages 3 and 4 for the difficult stuff like agri and pharma. If we allowed say 18 months to negotiate and agree each stage, it could lead to the more difficult industries understanding the mutual benefits of agreeing a deal.
Agree about ag business lobbying, like with most industries in the USA it’s absolutely insidious. I believe the scale of the lobbying operation in Washington is surpassed only be the scale of that in Brussels. Maybe the solution is to stage US trade talks in parallel rather than in series, so the difficult industries don’t think they’re being left out. So long as we agree at the start to implement each group ASAP when they conclude, then there’s no problem.
We know Trump has a short memory and remembers what the last person he listened to was saying, so when we have him in the UK we tell him that we’ll drop tarrifs on US car imports the day we leave the EU, if he does the same for us. Maybe park a Rolls Royce and a McLaren in Downing St to help with the messaging. Edit: and go with @SouthamObserver’s suggestion of telling him that we wanted to do this years ago but Obama opposed it!!0 -
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A Game of Thrones wedding. What could possibly go wrong?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-445750140 -
I made no such claim. I reported a tweet which said just tax, not specifically corporation tax. You cast doubt on whether they paid that much specifically as corporation tax to give the impression that you are some kind of expert on these matters. And you may well be. But as the point I was making was simply that the UK's EU subscription is tiny compared to the economic effects leaving has on our tax base with big companies like Airbus, the facts are on my side.MaxPB said:
Just like you did your sums yesterday when you claimed the UK government would lose £1.7bn in corporation tax if Airbus UK closed?Recidivist said:
I am sure whoever this is has done his sums and what he says is right enough. But I think this kind of damage is small change compared to all the opportunities we are losing by not playing our part in Europe. The harm Brexit has done to the UK's brand image won't be capable of being measured.AlastairMeeks said:
I think Brexiters should be concentrating on coming up with solutions to the problems their preferred policy is generating rather than trying to ignore them. You'll need more than nit-picking skills to make a success of such a big change in how we do business.
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So the big opportunities are in the RoW, G20 and USA, rather than in the EU. Thanks for emphasising my point.FF43 said:
Not obvious from this chart why leaving "protectionist, insular" EU, which does a lot more international trade than we do, helps the UKSandpit said:
Disagree. 90% of world growth in the coming years will be outside the EU. As that organisation becomes increasingly protectionist, insular and overbearing with regulation, the biggest opportunities lie elsewhere. Like every change it will take some adjustment, but those companies willing to seize the opportunities will do very well in the future. A decade from now, I believe that most people will only be complaining that we didn’t leave the EU earlier.SouthamObserver said:
The rest of the world sees a country inflicting harm on itself for no discernable gain.Sandpit said:
Believe me that that’s not how the rest of the world see a G7 country, member of the Security Council, soon to be the 4th biggest voice on the World Trade Organisation and one of the easiest countries in the world to do business or set up a business.FF43 said:
Astute point. "Global Britain" is a image of bygone age that people prefer to a disconcerting present and future.SouthamObserver said:
Nostalgia is the dominant force on the left and the right. The UK gives every sign of being a country that believes its best days are in the past.swing_voter said:
A great read......I would arguethat the populist UK right, aided by the Daily Mail, Express and a misguided sense of nostalgia of a B&W 1950s Britain were what turned folk against the EU -we suffer from a very powerful nostalgia and to this day I see it as one of the national malaisewelshowl said:
Delors was spectacularly successful, but at a price, he turned enough of the U.K. electorate (mostly on the right) from mildly positive to so negative they were set on the exit path.DavidL said:. .
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Sorry I can't agree with that at all. Trump was an entirely home grown phenomena. It may have been born out of the same disconnect between the political classes and the electorate as in the UK but that is only because first world electorates tend to react in the same way to the same issues. Trump would certainly have happened without Brexit. He was, unfortunately, inevitable given how much the US electorate were being taken for granted or dismissed by those in positions of influence.HYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in Mississippi
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
Really?It is pretty demomstrable from that chart that non-EU countries have far more economic growth than EU ones, and they are the ones we should piggy back off.FF43 said:
Not obvious from this chart why leaving "protectionist, insular" EU, which does a lot more international trade than we do, helps the UKSandpit said:
Disagree. 90% of world growth in the coming years will be outside the EU. As that organisation becomes increasingly protectionist, insular and overbearing with regulation, the biggest opportunities lie elsewhere. Like every change it will take some adjustment, but those companies willing to seize the opportunities will do very well in the future. A decade from now, I believe that most people will only be complaining that we didn’t leave the EU earlier.SouthamObserver said:
The rest of the world sees a country inflicting harm on itself for no discernable gain.Sandpit said:
Believe me that that’s not how the rest of the world see a G7 country, member of the Security Council, soon to be the 4th biggest voice on the World Trade Organisation and one of the easiest countries in the world to do business or set up a business.FF43 said:
Astute point. "Global Britain" is a image of bygone age that people prefer to a disconcerting present and future.SouthamObserver said:
Nostalgia is the dominant force on the left and the right. The UK gives every sign of being a country that believes its best days are in the past.swing_voter said:
A great read......I would arguethat the populist UK right, aided by the Daily Mail, Express and a misguided sense of nostalgia of a B&W 1950s Britain were what turned folk against the EU -we suffer from a very powerful nostalgia and to this day I see it as one of the national malaisewelshowl said:
Delors was spectacularly successful, but at a price, he turned enough of the U.K. electorate (mostly on the right) from mildly positive to so negative they were set on the exit path.DavidL said:. .
Also, your fact is wrong. The UK exports a higher percentage of GDP to non-EU markets than the EU does.0 -
He was at least partially Russian grown.Richard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I can't agree with that at all. Trump was an entirely home grown phenomena. It may have been born out of the same disconnect between the political classes and the electorate as in the UK but that is only because first world electorates tend to react in the same way to the same issues. Trump would certainly have happened without Brexit. He was, unfortunately, inevitable given how much the US electorate were being taken for granted or dismissed by those in positions of influence.HYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in Mississippi
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
Your point was that we have to leave the EU to take advantage of the opportunities in the rest of the world, wasn't it?Sandpit said:
So the big opportunities are in the RoW, G20 and USA, rather than in the EU. Thanks for emphasising my point.FF43 said:
Not obvious from this chart why leaving "protectionist, insular" EU, which does a lot more international trade than we do, helps the UKSandpit said:
Disagree. 90% of world growth in the coming years will be outside the EU. As that organisation becomes increasingly protectionist, insular and overbearing with regulation, the biggest opportunities lie elsewhere. Like every change it will take some adjustment, but those companies willing to seize the opportunities will do very well in the future. A decade from now, I believe that most people will only be complaining that we didn’t leave the EU earlier.SouthamObserver said:
The rest of the world sees a country inflicting harm on itself for no discernable gain.Sandpit said:
Believe me that that’s not how the rest of the world see a G7 country, member of the Security Council, soon to be the 4th biggest voice on the World Trade Organisation and one of the easiest countries in the world to do business or set up a business.FF43 said:
Astute point. "Global Britain" is a image of bygone age that people prefer to a disconcerting present and future.SouthamObserver said:
Nostalgia is the dominant force on the left and the right. The UK gives every sign of being a country that believes its best days are in the past.swing_voter said:
A great read......I would arguethat the populist UK right, aided by the Daily Mail, Express and a misguided sense of nostalgia of a B&W 1950s Britain were what turned folk against the EU -we suffer from a very powerful nostalgia and to this day I see it as one of the national malaisewelshowl said:
Delors was spectacularly successful, but at a price, he turned enough of the U.K. electorate (mostly on the right) from mildly positive to so negative they were set on the exit path.DavidL said:. .
0 -
At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.0
-
BMW own Mini and Aston Martin are now basically a branding company that are completely dependent on Mercedes powertrains and electronics.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese0 -
Remind Trump that Obama said we’d be at the “back of the queue”. That should help.SouthamObserver said:
The way to get Trump to take notice is to say that what you are proposing was opposed by the Obama administration; or that it introduced what you want repealed.rcs1000 said:
My friend - who was born British, but you'd never know - has a whole spiel about how supporting agribusiness is a key part of "Making America Great Again". He's made his message very appealing to the Trump administration.MaxPB said:
Yes, that's what I meant by, err, insist. That's still one thing Trump should do, drain the swamp. If anything he's made it worse.rcs1000 said:
I have a friend who is a lobbyist for a large US agribusiness. His budget to wine and dine Congressmen and Senators and take them on "fact finding trips" is well into six figures, and may be approaching seven.MaxPB said:
No it wouldn't the US agriculture lobby would insist that the UK open up its market to their poor quality subsidised crap produce, the UK would decline on safety and quality standards and the talks would break down.Sandpit said:
Yes, most of the cars we export to the US are high-end models. The only mass-market car is I think the Honda Jazz from Swindon, that’s also made in US factories.
A reciprocal deal for tarrif-free trade in manufactured good and components should be relatively straightforward for the UK and US to agree.
(And I'm sure he'd find a message that resonated well with a Democratic administration.)0 -
No it is not for this reason, it was the Brexit vote which saw Trump strategists pivot to rustbelt states like Michigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania the GOP had not won since 1988 and ensured Trump won the Electoral College.SouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to accept that most Americans, those in the heartlands especially, have next to no idea about what is going on outside of the US, so I'll leave it there :-DHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald de.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles make unprecedented demands on anyone operating a popular website to monitor copyrighted material and to pay fees to news organizations when linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%
Without Brexit Trump would have focused on George W Bush voting swing states like Virginia and Nevada and Colorado which voted for Hillary and would have lost the Electoral College0 -
What Irish American lobby? They have all bought into a generic White American identity these days.SouthamObserver said:
And then you need to factor in the immensely powerful healthcare lobby.rcs1000 said:
You are more optimistic than I am. Simply, the US agriculture lobby is enormously powerful and has Donald Trump, Democrats and Republicans in its pocket. It would (probably correctly) think that if agriculture is delayed, then it is lost. And I simply can't see a situation where the UK government allows US agricultural products in unless they meet UK standards.Sandpit said:I think a US-UK trade deal would need to be done in stages, otherwise it would be a neverending negotiation as the scope is so big. It makes sense to get agreement on the easy bits first where standards are similar, before moving later to the trickier areas.
Stage 1 could be for manufactured good and machines, stage 2 for professional services, stages 3 and 4 for the difficult stuff like agri and pharma. If we allowed say 18 months to negotiate and agree each stage, it could lead to the more difficult industries understanding the mutual benefits of agreeing a deal.
What's more, good luck getting past the unbelievably powerful Irish-American lobby if the UK is perceived to have shafted Ireland in any way.
We should stick to New Zealand.0 -
I can’t see any formal UK-US trade deal, at present, whose terms would pass both the US Congress and Westminster.rcs1000 said:
You are more optimistic than I am. Simply, the US agriculture lobby is enormously powerful and has Donald Trump, Democrats and Republicans in its pocket. It would (probably correctly) think that if agriculture is delayed, then it is lost. And I simply can't see a situation where the UK government allows US agricultural products in unless they meet UK standards.Sandpit said:I think a US-UK trade deal would need to be done in stages, otherwise it would be a neverending negotiation as the scope is so big. It makes sense to get agreement on the easy bits first where standards are similar, before moving later to the trickier areas.
Stage 1 could be for manufactured good and machines, stage 2 for professional services, stages 3 and 4 for the difficult stuff like agri and pharma. If we allowed say 18 months to negotiate and agree each stage, it could lead to the more difficult industries understanding the mutual benefits of agreeing a deal.
Instead, i expect a series of lower level bilateral agreements in specific areas and sectors, beneath the status of a formal trade deal.0 -
Anyone normal in London is going to Royal Ascot today.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.
I work for a very Remainy firm, and they all are.0 -
I do agree Trump as much as Sanders, Brexit and Corbyn, Salvini and Melenchon and Le Pen, Wilders and the AfD and Syriza and Five Star and the Swedish Democrats is a symptom of a Western working and lower middle class revolt against uncontrolled immigration, globalisation, cheap imports from China etc and excess austerityRichard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I can't agree with that at all. Trump was an entirely home grown phenomena. It may have been born out of the same disconnect between the political classes and the electorate as in the UK but that is only because first world electorates tend to react in the same way to the same issues. Trump would certainly have happened without Brexit. He was, unfortunately, inevitable given how much the US electorate were being taken for granted or dismissed by those in positions of influence.HYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in Mississippi
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
I think it’s a bit naive to think Trump would make us an exception.Sandpit said:
I think a US-UK trade deal would need to be done in stages, otherwise it would be a neverending negotiation as the scope is so big. It makes sense to get agreement on the easy bits first where standards are similar, before moving later to the trickier areas.rcs1000 said:
I don't believe the US would do a deal that didn't include agriculture. (See Canada.)Sandpit said:
Yes, most of the cars we export to the US are high-end models. The only mass-market car is I think the Honda Jazz from Swindon, that’s also made in US factories.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese Trump could easily exempt British owned carmakers from the new tariffs and see no real impact in the rustbelt especially as most Trump voters backed Brexit anyway I doubt they would be botheredFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald Trump, when he visits the UK next month, to announce that he’s exempting British cars fromNigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:....
Trump is a New York real estate magnate. He sees every deal as a way to screw people, and that includes his own staff and suppliers. I see no reason why we in the UK would be exempt. He has no friends because he is a narcissist sociopath.
A reciprocal deal for tarrif-free trade in manufactured good and components should be relatively straightforward for the UK and US to agree.
Stage 1 could be for manufactured good and machines, stage 2 for professional services, stages 3 and 4 for the difficult stuff like agri and pharma. If we allowed say 18 months to negotiate and agree each stage, it could lead to the more difficult industries understanding the mutual benefits of agreeing a deal.
Right now, Trump doesn’t think that Britain is screwing Amercia, this gives us an opportunity.0 -
Do you have any pictures of someone in a suit and fascinator?Casino_Royale said:At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.
0 -
Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?Casino_Royale said:At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.
0 -
Aston is a private company and isn't owned by BMW. It's ownership structure is fairly opaque. BMW own Rolls.Dura_Ace said:
BMW own Mini and Aston Martin are now basically a branding company that are completely dependent on Mercedes powertrains and electronics.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese0 -
But it would still need to be ratified by the same people?Casino_Royale said:
I can’t see any formal UK-US trade deal, at present, whose terms would pass both the US Congress and Westminster.rcs1000 said:
You are more optimistic than I am. Simply, the US agriculture lobby is enormously powerful and has Donald Trump, Democrats and Republicans in its pocket. It would (probably correctly) think that if agriculture is delayed, then it is lost. And I simply can't see a situation where the UK government allows US agricultural products in unless they meet UK standards.Sandpit said:I think a US-UK trade deal would need to be done in stages, otherwise it would be a neverending negotiation as the scope is so big. It makes sense to get agreement on the easy bits first where standards are similar, before moving later to the trickier areas.
Stage 1 could be for manufactured good and machines, stage 2 for professional services, stages 3 and 4 for the difficult stuff like agri and pharma. If we allowed say 18 months to negotiate and agree each stage, it could lead to the more difficult industries understanding the mutual benefits of agreeing a deal.
Instead, i expect a series of lower level bilateral agreements in specific areas and sectors, beneath the status of a formal trade deal.0 -
Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.0 -
Weird. Just plain weird.Casino_Royale said:
Anyone normal in London is going to Royal Ascot today.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.
0 -
Ah, memories of Royal Ascot. I worked IT for them when they did the redevelopment in 2006 - a whole week of 16 hour days, walking at least a hundred miles wearing the compulsory top hat and morning suit!!Casino_Royale said:
Anyone normal in London is going to Royal Ascot today.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.
I work for a very Remainy firm, and they all are.
And not allowed near a bookie! Those attending looked like they had a whale of a time though!0 -
Well one of trumps sensible ideas amid a lot of rubbish was term limits for Congress and senators. That way you avoid the lobbying culture and all the problems that go with it.rcs1000 said:
I don't believe the US would do a deal that didn't include agriculture. (See Canada.)Sandpit said:
Yes, most of the cars we export to the US are high-end models. The only mass-market car is I think the Honda Jazz from Swindon, that’s also made in US factories.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese Trump could easily exempt British owned carmakers from the new tariffs and see no real impact in the rustbelt especially as most Trump voters backed Brexit anyway I doubt they would be botheredFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterdayNigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles make unprecedented demands on anyone operating a popular website to monitor copyrighted material and to pay fees to news organizations when linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump is a New York real estate magnate. He sees every deal as a way to screw people, and that includes his own staff and suppliers. I see no reason why we in the UK would be exempt. He has no friends because he is a narcissist sociopath.
A reciprocal deal for tarrif-free trade in manufactured good and components should be relatively straightforward for the UK and US to agree.0 -
Shopping?Recidivist said:
Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?Casino_Royale said:At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.
0 -
There has definitely been a short-term hit. Whether it’s sustained in the long-term is another matter.rcs1000 said:
Counterfactuals are great. They require absolutely no proof whatsoever.AlastairMeeks said:
£23bn “poorer” for the public finances, already, is definitely overcooking it.0 -
If we do end up leaving the single market and customs union then there will be a step change at some point. So far any hit is all down to uncertainty and risk.Casino_Royale said:
There has definitely been a short-term hit. Whether it’s sustained in the long-term is another matter.rcs1000 said:
Counterfactuals are great. They require absolutely no proof whatsoever.AlastairMeeks said:
£23bn “poorer” for the public finances, already, is definitely overcooking it.0 -
I rather suspect Trump is against term limits for POTUS though.hunchman said:
Well one of trumps sensible ideas amid a lot of rubbish was term limits for Congress and senators. That way you avoid the lobbying culture and all the problems that go with it.rcs1000 said:
I don't believe the US would do a deal that didn't include agriculture. (See Canada.)Sandpit said:
Yes, most of the cars we export to the US are high-end models. The only mass-market car is I think the Honda Jazz from Swindon, that’s also made in US factories.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese Trump could easily exempt British owned carmakers from the new tariffs and see no real impact in the rustbelt especially as most Trump voters backed Brexit anyway I doubt they would be botheredFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterdayNigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles make unprecedented demands on anyone operating a popular website to monitor copyrighted material and to pay fees to news organizations when linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump is a New York real estate magnate. He sees every deal as a way to screw people, and that includes his own staff and suppliers. I see no reason why we in the UK would be exempt. He has no friends because he is a narcissist sociopath.
A reciprocal deal for tarrif-free trade in manufactured good and components should be relatively straightforward for the UK and US to agree.0 -
that was the trouble to many non_tory voters, the referendum REMAIN campaign appeared like a Conservative debating society line up, Labour under Corbyn were just not involved (wasnt it Jack Straw;s young son leading that) and the Lib Dems a shattered force after 2015 GE,PClipp said:
Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.0 -
Wouldn’t that need a Constitutional Amendment, and an awful lot of turkeys voting for Christmas?hunchman said:
Well one of trumps sensible ideas amid a lot of rubbish was term limits for Congress and senators. That way you avoid the lobbying culture and all the problems that go with it.rcs1000 said:
I don't believe the US would do a deal that didn't include agriculture. (See Canada.)Sandpit said:
Yes, most of the cars we export to the US are high-end models. The only mass-market car is I think the Honda Jazz from Swindon, that’s also made in US factories.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese Trump could easily exempt British owned carmakers from the new tariffs and see no real impact in the rustbelt especially as most Trump voters backed Brexit anyway I doubt they would be botheredFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterdayNigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:....
Trump is a New York real estate magnate. He sees every deal as a way to screw people, and that includes his own staff and suppliers. I see no reason why we in the UK would be exempt. He has no friends because he is a narcissist sociopath.
A reciprocal deal for tarrif-free trade in manufactured good and components should be relatively straightforward for the UK and US to agree.
Not that that makes it a bad idea of course, politicians shouldn’t have what is in a lot of cases effectively a job for life.0 -
I would perhaps go further than that. It us not just that working and middle class voters feel they are worse off because of the things you list. It is also that they believe that the political classes - politicians, journalists and professionals - are benefiting from these things at their expense, that the world is being organised to benefit a few rather than the many. I am not saying they are right in this belief - though to be honest that is pretty much how the world has worked for the last few thousand years - but it was a message that struck home with the electorate right across the first world.HYUFD said:
I do agree Trump as much as Sanders, Brexit and Corbyn, Salvini and Melenchon and Le Pen, Wilders and the AfD and Syriza and Five Star and the Swedish Democrats is a symptom of a Western working and lower middle class revolt against uncontrolled immigration, globalisation, cheap imports from China etc and excess austerityRichard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I can't agree with that at all. Trump was an entirely home grown phenomena. It may have been born out of the same disconnect between the political classes and the electorate as in the UK but that is only because first world electorates tend to react in the same way to the same issues. Trump would certainly have happened without Brexit. He was, unfortunately, inevitable given how much the US electorate were being taken for granted or dismissed by those in positions of influence.HYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in Mississippi
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
Agree with that. On our recent cruise not one American raised the issue, indeed no one did (3,500) passengers and one Americal lady from the mid west astonished everyone by refering to the seagulls as ducks. My experience of US citizens is that they are remarkably insularSouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to accept that most Americans, those in the heartlands especially, have next to no idea about what is going on outside of the US, so I'll leave it there :-DHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald Trump, when he visits the UK next month, to announce that he’s exempting British cars from his new 20% tariff on EU cars? We all know he can’t do that while we are in the EU, but his US audience wouldn’t understand that and it would focus minds here and in Brussels that there are advantages for us of being outside.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles make unprecedented demands on anyone operating a popular website to monitor copyrighted material and to pay fees to news organizations when linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10102672117081415730 -
Having Corbyn notionally Remain but not very enthusiastic also meant that the most prominent Labour Leave figures were Tory-friendly people like Kate Hoey and Frank Field instead of the hard left who might have turned off Tory voters.swing_voter said:
that was the trouble to many non_tory voters, the referendum REMAIN campaign appeared like a Conservative debating society line up, Labour under Corbyn were just not involved (wasnt it Jack Straw;s young son leading that) and the Lib Dems a shattered force after 2015 GE,PClipp said:
Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.0 -
Good pointSean_F said:
Nobody would take any notice of you if you were to say, "By 2030, GDP per head in the UK will be $48,000, but it would have been $50,000 if Brexit had not happened."SquareRoot said:
There are loons out there who predict Armageddon all the time.. There was a loon economist who predicted 5 million unemployed.. I forget his name as he has likewise been forgotten.RobD said:
Unless he has a parallel universe in which the UK did not leave the EU, I'm not sure how seriously to take him. It's costing the treasury £440mn a week, yet borrowing figures at at their best in 13 years?AlastairMeeks said:0 -
UKIP leader Gerard Batten is addressing a rival 'Brexit and Betrayal' Leave rally today at MillbankCasino_Royale said:
Anyone normal in London is going to Royal Ascot today.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.
I work for a very Remainy firm, and they all are.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GerardBattenMEP/status/10089734593456087040 -
Avoiding the runway vote on monday is an act of shear folly for his career. If he cannot vote against and accept the consequences he cannot be PM of the UKrottenborough said:With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1010267211708141573
Mind you I fully support runway 3 and also no 40 -
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to accept that most Americans, those in the heartlands especially, have next to no idea about what is going on outside of the US, so I'll leave it there :-D
Agree with that. On our recent cruise not one American raised the issue, indeed no one did (3,500) passengers and one Americal lady from the mid west astonished everyone by refering to the seagulls as ducks. My experience of US citizens is that they are remarkably insular
Many US citizens never gone beyond North America (or even the US), their understanding of Europe is at best hazy and often refer to a grandparent/great grandparent who served in WW2, the idea that Wisconsin voted for TRUMP due to BREXIT is fanciful - theysimply bought a vague message that average Joe socked it to big government0 -
Public borrowing has gone from £70bn in 2015/16 to £40bn in 2017/18 and probably £25 bn in 2018/19.Casino_Royale said:
There has definitely been a short-term hit. Whether it’s sustained in the long-term is another matter.rcs1000 said:
Counterfactuals are great. They require absolutely no proof whatsoever.AlastairMeeks said:
£23bn “poorer” for the public finances, already, is definitely overcooking it.0 -
Lol.Fysics_Teacher said:
Do you have any pictures of someone in a suit and fascinator?Casino_Royale said:At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.
0 -
There are always Morgans tooDura_Ace said:
BMW own Mini and Aston Martin are now basically a branding company that are completely dependent on Mercedes powertrains and electronics.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese0 -
I see your Danish 50.7 v. 49.3 and raise you a 50.3 v. 49.7 for the Welsh Devolution Referendum of 1997!0
-
I'm not sure. Boris seems to have a degree of licence from Number 10. Boris is often critical but unlike Grieve, Davis or Mogg, is not threatening to derail the PM. Even on Heathrow, it looks as if Boris dying in a ditch has silently morphed into missing the vote.rottenborough said:With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:
twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10102672117081415730 -
To be fair both sides were dominated by Tories.swing_voter said:
that was the trouble to many non_tory voters, the referendum REMAIN campaign appeared like a Conservative debating society line up, Labour under Corbyn were just not involved (wasnt it Jack Straw;s young son leading that) and the Lib Dems a shattered force after 2015 GE,PClipp said:
Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.
The intellectual paucity of non-Tory parties at the time was very clear.0 -
I expect the number of people outside the UK who care about Brexit is tiny.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agree with that. On our recent cruise not one American raised the issue, indeed no one did (3,500) passengers and one Americal lady from the mid west astonished everyone by refering to the seagulls as ducks. My experience of US citizens is that they are remarkably insularSouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to accept that most Americans, those in the heartlands especially, have next to no idea about what is going on outside of the US, so I'll leave it there :-DHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald Trump, when he visits the UK next month, to announce that he’s exempting British cars from his new 20% tariff on EU cars? We all know he can’t do that while we are in the EU, but his US audience wouldn’t understand that and it would focus minds here and in Brussels that there are advantages for us of being outside.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great exampor discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the articles themselves are so vague. That’s the primary issue for critics. Both articles make unprecedented demands on anyone operating a popular website to monitor copyrighted material and to pay fees to news organizations when linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
American (Ford Cyclone V6 or S&S V twin) or BMW engines. German or Japanese transmissions.HYUFD said:
There are always Morgans tooDura_Ace said:
BMW own Mini and Aston Martin are now basically a branding company that are completely dependent on Mercedes powertrains and electronics.HYUFD said:
Given the UK barely has any car makers now anyway beyond Aston Martins and Minis compared to BMW, Mercedes, Fiat or Renault or Toyota and those we do produce tend to be Japanese
0 -
On that basis only 1% of the London population is normal, which seems a bit of an oxymoron.Casino_Royale said:
Anyone normal in London is going to Royal Ascot today.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.
I work for a very Remainy firm, and they all are.0 -
Enjoy your day in the sun in London....PClipp said:
Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.0 -
Weren't we always told pre-referendum that the number inside the UK who care about Europe is tiny?Sean_F said:I expect the number of people outside the UK who care about Brexit is tiny.
0 -
Ascot.Recidivist said:
Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?Casino_Royale said:At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.
Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.0 -
Thanks. Will report back!Sandpit said:
Ah, memories of Royal Ascot. I worked IT for them when they did the redevelopment in 2006 - a whole week of 16 hour days, walking at least a hundred miles wearing the compulsory top hat and morning suit!!Casino_Royale said:
Anyone normal in London is going to Royal Ascot today.MarqueeMark said:Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......
yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.
I work for a very Remainy firm, and they all are.
And not allowed near a bookie! Those attending looked like they had a whale of a time though!0 -
That has little to do with the main point (and in any case she may have heard of Brexit even if not seagulls) which was it was only Brexit which led Trump to focus on the white working class rustbelt so heavily, e.g. holding his final rallies there and it was only narrow wins there which saw him win the EC.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agree with that. On our recent cruise not one American raised the issue, indeed no one did (3,500) passengers and one Americal lady from the mid west astonished everyone by refering to the seagulls as ducks. My experience of US citizens is that they are remarkably insularSouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse toHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Explaining what’s wrong with these two points of the legislation in detail is difficult because the n linking out to their articles. Defenders of the plan say that critics are exaggerating because of assumptions they’re making about how the legislation will be implemented....
That last bir reminds me of something we might have heard of before relating to Europea legislation....
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%
Though of course given the USA is basically a continent the size of Europe with Canada tacked on they are not much more insular than we are, most Britons have not travelled outside of Europe for example (unless you include Tenerife) while most Americans have not travelled further than Canada or Mexico0 -
Pah, when I was little (according to my mum), I used to refer to seagulls as "seagull-ducks"Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agree with that. On our recent cruise not one American raised the issue, indeed no one did (3,500) passengers and one Americal lady from the mid west astonished everyone by refering to the seagulls as ducks. My experience of US citizens is that they are remarkably insularSouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to accept that most Americans, those in the heartlands especially, have next to no idea about what is going on outside of the US, so I'll leave it there :-DHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald Trump, when he visits the UK next month, to announce that he’s exempting British cars from his new 20% tariff on EU cars? We all know he can’t do that while we are in the EU, but his US audience wouldn’t understand that and it would focus minds here and in Brussels that there are advantages for us of being outside.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%
0 -
I expect some do in Europe but elsewhere no one gives a hootPhilip_Thompson said:
Weren't we always told pre-referendum that the number inside the UK who care about Europe is tiny?Sean_F said:I expect the number of people outside the UK who care about Brexit is tiny.
0 -
I meant when he resigns because Brexit is not Brexit, but a great dollop of fudge that May has cooked up, rather than when she sacks him.DecrepitJohnL said:
I'm not sure. Boris seems to have a degree of licence from Number 10. Boris is often critical but unlike Grieve, Davis or Mogg, is not threatening to derail the PM. Even on Heathrow, it looks as if Boris dying in a ditch has silently morphed into missing the vote.rottenborough said:With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:
twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1010267211708141573
To be honest neither will happen. He will manage to spin the fudge as the greatest treaty ever signed by a UK government.0 -
Yes, well done to the government for whipping the vote, even if it was at the cost of a minor resignation and Boris needing to find a way to be somewhere else.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Avoiding the runway vote on monday is an act of shear folly for his career. If he cannot vote against and accept the consequences he cannot be PM of the UKrottenborough said:With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1010267211708141573
Mind you I fully support runway 3 and also no 4
My only annoyance is that they’re not legislating for runway 4 at the same time, they should really be planning to start building that on the day R3 opens.0 -
I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.
In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.
0 -
May well see the SNP vote with the government for onceSandpit said:
Yes, well done to the government for whipping the vote, even if it was at the cost of a minor resignation and Boris needing to find a way to be somewhere else.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Avoiding the runway vote on monday is an act of shear folly for his career. If he cannot vote against and accept the consequences he cannot be PM of the UKrottenborough said:With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1010267211708141573
Mind you I fully support runway 3 and also no 4
My only annoyance is that they’re not legislating for runway 4 at the same time, they should really be planning to start building that on the day R3 opens.0 -
Liam Fox is tired of talking about Brexit and admits not all trade deals can be rolled over
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b70b33c4-7653-11e8-a4b0-c06c25e9bae20 -
I heard that, well done to them. I’m going to make an assumption that people making a weekly commute between Scotland and London see Heathrow Hassle at its worst, the BA domestic schedule is always the first to get binned when it’s foggy or snowy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
May well see the SNP vote with the government for onceSandpit said:
Yes, well done to the government for whipping the vote, even if it was at the cost of a minor resignation and Boris needing to find a way to be somewhere else.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Avoiding the runway vote on monday is an act of shear folly for his career. If he cannot vote against and accept the consequences he cannot be PM of the UKrottenborough said:With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1010267211708141573
Mind you I fully support runway 3 and also no 4
My only annoyance is that they’re not legislating for runway 4 at the same time, they should really be planning to start building that on the day R3 opens.0 -
Indeed and it is only likely to get worse if automation as well as immigration and globalisation just benefits the most wealthy, creative and tech savvy types rather than the majorityRichard_Tyndall said:
I would perhaps go further than that. It us not just that working and middle class voters feel they are worse off because of the things you list. It is also that they believe that the political classes - politicians, journalists and professionals - are benefiting from these things at their expense, that the world is being organised to benefit a few rather than the many. I am not saying they are right in this belief - though to be honest that is pretty much how the world has worked for the last few thousand years - but it was a message that struck home with the electorate right across the first world.HYUFD said:
I do agree Trump as much as Sanders, Brexit and Corbyn, Salvini and Melenchon and Le Pen, Wilders and the AfD and Syriza and Five Star and the Swedish Democrats is a symptom of a Western working and lower middle class revolt against uncontrolled immigration, globalisation, cheap imports from China etc and excess austerityRichard_Tyndall said:
Sorry I can't agree with that at all. Trump was an entirely home grown phenomena. It may have been born out of the same disconnect between the political classes and the electorate as in the UK but that is only because first world electorates tend to react in the same way to the same issues. Trump would certainly have happened without Brexit. He was, unfortunately, inevitable given how much the US electorate were being taken for granted or dismissed by those in positions of influence.HYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in Mississippi
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
You really think most Britons have not travelled outside Europe? I don't have the figures but I'd be surprised if most haven't been further at least once.HYUFD said:
That has little to do with the main point (and in any case she may have heard of Brexit even if not seagulls) which was it was only Brexit which led Trump to focus on the white working class rustbelt so heavily, e.g. holding his final rallies there and it was only narrow wins there which saw him win the EC.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agree with that. On our recent cruise not one American raised the issue, indeed no one did (3,500) passengers and one Americal lady from the mid west astonished everyone by refering to the seagulls as ducks. My experience of US citizens is that they are remarkably insularSouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse toHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:.
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%
Though of course given the USA is basically a continent the size of Europe with Canada tacked on they are not much more insular than we are, most Britons have not travelled outside of Europe for example (unless you include Tenerife) while most Americans have not travelled further than Canada or Mexico0 -
Clearly you should have been American!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Pah, when I was little (according to my mum), I used to refer to seagulls as "seagull-ducks"Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agree with that. On our recent cruise not one American raised the issue, indeed no one did (3,500) passengers and one Americal lady from the mid west astonished everyone by refering to the seagulls as ducks. My experience of US citizens is that they are remarkably insularSouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to accept that most Americans, those in the heartlands especially, have next to no idea about what is going on outside of the US, so I'll leave it there :-DHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if we can persuade Donald Trump, when he visits the UK next month, to announce that he’s exempting British cars from his new 20% tariff on EU cars? We all know he can’t do that while we are in the EU, but his US audience wouldn’t understand that and it would focus minds here and in Brussels that there are advantages for us of being outside.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:The infamous Copyright Directive rolls on. This is a decent article on the state of play:
https://gizmodo.com/[object Object]
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%0 -
Its not the media's fault that Johnson was put forward by Labour as the leader of the offical Labour remain campaign. Corbyn could have put himself forward but chose not to.TheJezziah said:I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.
In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.0 -
Europe and north African islands that could effectively be part of Europe - yes I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.Benpointer said:
You really think most Britons have not travelled outside Europe? I don't have the figures but I'd be surprised if most haven't been further at least once.HYUFD said:
That has little to do with the main point (and in any case she may have heard of Brexit even if not seagulls) which was it was only Brexit which led Trump to focus on the white working class rustbelt so heavily, e.g. holding his final rallies there and it was only narrow wins there which saw him win the EC.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Agree with that. On our recent cruise not one American raised the issue, indeed no one did (3,500) passengers and one Americal lady from the mid west astonished everyone by refering to the seagulls as ducks. My experience of US citizens is that they are remarkably insularSouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse toHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:.
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%
Though of course given the USA is basically a continent the size of Europe with Canada tacked on they are not much more insular than we are, most Britons have not travelled outside of Europe for example (unless you include Tenerife) while most Americans have not travelled further than Canada or Mexico0 -
Some Irish perspectives here. http://www.politics.ie/forum/brexit/256463-brexit-general-forum-4331.htmlSean_F said:
I expect the number of people outside the UK who care about Brexit is tiny.0 -
https://twitter.com/mikeedudley/status/737700442050809856rottenborough said:With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/10102672117081415730 -
I thought that phrase was associated with Ernie Bevin.FF43 said:
On Thatcher diplomacy. Her policy of "Keeping the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down" has been shot to pieces by Brexit, Putin and Trump.ydoethur said:On topic, with regard to Kohl although I'm no expert isn't it the case rather that because of the Second World War he had effectively rejected his German identity - which comes with, shall we say, awkward baggage - and thought of himself as European? That is to say, in constructing the EU he was fulfilling his fantasy of ceasing to be German, rather than trying to restrain his fellow countrymen?
He once tried to impress on Thatcher by his outlook, habits, language etc. that he was European, not German. How far he succeeded may be judged by her first comment on getting to the plane: 'God, that man's so German!'0 -
Google to the rescue again:Philip_Thompson said:
Europe and north African islands that could effectively be part of Europe - yes I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.Benpointer said:
You really think most Britons have not travelled outside Europe? I don't have the figures but I'd be surprised if most haven't been further at least once.HYUFD said:Big_G_NorthWales said:SouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse toHYUFD said:
They do, Brexit was big news in the USA and Farage launched himself on the USA at a Trump rally in MississippiSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considering how Trump has imposed tarriffs on Canada, America's most loyal ally, I cannot see that, or it being popular in Trump heartlands.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:.
Trump sociopath.
Without Brexit there may well have not been a President Trump as he would not have gambled all on rustbelt Democratic swing states like Wisconsin and Michigan he won by less than 1%
"Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).
(It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split
) 0 -
Benpointer said:HYUFD said:Big_G_NorthWales said:SouthamObserver said:HYUFD said:SouthamObserver said:HYUFD said:Foxy said:Sandpit said:
56% of Britons have never been to North America even if that is lower than the 72% of Americans who have never been to Europe.Nigelb said:
You really think most Britons have not travelled outside Europe? I don't have the figures but I'd be surprised if most haven't been further at least once.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:.
70% of Britons have never been to Africa, 73% of Britons have never been to Asia and 86% of Britons have never been to Australia though over 90% have been to continental Europe
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/0 -
On the basis that I don't want Labour to get smashed in an election I can understand why Corbyn didn't put himself forward, although I do wonder why someone a bit more inspirational wasn't chosen. I'm not hugely bothered myself, the media does far worse things as far as I'm concerned, but in terms of getting the result it wanted they have some blame themselves. I'm not arguing they had some moral imperative to ignore their anti Corbyn instincts for the greater good of the remain cause. They were well within their rights to do exactly as they did, if they wanted a different result though it was a mistake.Philip_Thompson said:
Its not the media's fault that Johnson was put forward by Labour as the leader of the offical Labour remain campaign. Corbyn could have put himself forward but chose not to.TheJezziah said:I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.
In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.
A tactical error rather than an immoral action.
0 -
To be fair to Americans, they can get almost every climate within their own country. And it's rather large. It's perhaps unsurprising that relatively fewer of them have travelled overseas.0
-
So 56% of Britons have never been to North America even if that is lower than the 72% of Americans who have never been to Europe.Benpointer said:
Google to the rescue again:Philip_Thompson said:
Europe and norths the case.Benpointer said:
You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.HYUFD said:Big_G_NorthWales said:SouthamObserver said:
This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse toHYUFD said:
They do, BrSouthamObserver said:
Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.HYUFD said:
Given the UFoxy said:
Considerinciopath.Sandpit said:
Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.Nigelb said:
Leaving won’t help much in escaping the effects of this.Sandpit said:
Yet another great example of politicians not understanding technology, the EU basically want a walled garden Internet of newspapers and shopping channels, with no links or discussions allowed. No wonder we voted to leave.Nigelb said:.
"Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).
(It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split)
70% of Britons have never been to Africa, 73% of Britons have never been to Asia and 86% of Britons have never been to Australia though over 90% have been to continental Europe.
And yes most of those going to Asia, Australia and Africa will be subsets of those going to N America on travel and flight costs principally so I was right.
0 -
HYUFD said:
56% of Britons have never been to North America even if that is lower than the 72% of Americans who have never been to Europe.
70% of Britons have never been to Africa, 73% of Britons have never been to Asia and 86% of Britons have never been to Australia though over 90% have been to continental Europe
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
"Twenty-two percent of Britons have never travelled on a plane and one in four have never visited a capital city in Europe,while nearly a third (29 per cent) have never travelled outside of Europe, and a fifth have never been to a beach, according to new research.
So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe. Seems about right.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/
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You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.TheJezziah said:I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.
In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.0 -
No. You were wrong.HYUFD said:
So 56% of Britons have never been to North America even if that is lower than the 72% of Americans who have never been to Europe.Benpointer said:
Google to the rescue again:Philip_Thompson said:
Europe and norths the case.Benpointer said:
You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.HYUFD said:Big_G_NorthWales said:SouthamObserver said:
"Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).
(It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split)
70% of Britons have never been to Africa, 73% of Britons have never been to Asia and 86% of Britons have never been to Australia though over 90% have been to continental Europe.
And yes most of those going to Asia, Australia and Africa will be subsets of those going to N America on travel and flight costs principally so I was right.
"Twenty-two percent of Britons have never travelled on a plane and one in four have never visited a capital city in Europe,while nearly a third (29 per cent) have never travelled outside of Europe, and a fifth have never been to a beach, according to new research.
So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/
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I would imagine that there would be a large correlation between the groups and that well-travelled people will indeed largely be a sub-set of the 44%.Benpointer said:
Google to the rescue again:Philip_Thompson said:
Europe and north African islands that could effectively be part of Europe - yes I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.Benpointer said:You really think most Britons have not travelled outside Europe? I don't have the figures but I'd be surprised if most haven't been further at least once.
"Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/
So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).
(It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split)
Personally I've been to all of the above apart from South America.
As for the Leave/Remain split I'm not sure if it would be that dramatic. Older people have had more opportunities to travel and to learn the foibles of the EU and see the bigger world outside it. Younger naive Remainers may not have had as many opportunities to leave Europe yet. 0
