politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This looks like a spectacular bust up between the SNP and the
Comments
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It maybe that they just want a backup to their own at no cost to them. So much military hardware uses GPS today including missiles that the first target of a cyber attack would be the GPS system. Having a backup to your own using different security systems may well be views as a great idea. Especially as we can tell the Yanks how to hack the EU's system. GCHQ developed the encryption.Casino_Royale said:
They may not, but they may also be happy to share security data with us to a limited extent. They already do so in a number of areas to a far greater degree.williamglenn said:
The US has GPS, so my question stands. Why would they want to facilitate a rival to their own system?Casino_Royale said:
Read the article: “Philip Hammond, warned that the UK would “have to go it alone, possibly with other partners outside Europe and the US, to build a third competing system”, if the EU maintained their position. It is understood that talks have opened with Australia on such a project.“williamglenn said:
Why would the key member of five eyes create a rival to their own system?Casino_Royale said:That Guardian Galileo article isn’t quite as advertised (surprise surprise) as the EU wants to give the UK observer status and put cooperation onto a new basis.
Either way, it’s remarkably stupid. The UK and US collaborate far more closely on the F35, for example, as a “third country” including sharing software and security data. And even more so as part of five eyes, a collation of “third countries” that do more for mutual security than the EU’s common foreign and security policy ever has. The UK is already reaching out to Australia and it wouldn’t surprise me if a five eyes equivalent ended up being developed, entirely independent of the EU and a rival to it.
It may or may not involve the US at some level. I’d say it probably would.
These things are far more flexible than you seem to think they are. China was originally an investment partner in Galileo, for example, before it decided to upgrade its own system instead.0 -
Unless my eyes deceive me Mike doesn't use the words independent or pollster in that letter, so I don't know where they're getting their ideas.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like his suggestion, in effect, to Labour voters that they will be helping Labour by voting LD, as it might help change Corbyn's mind on Brexit.0 -
House of Commons votes down Lords Amendment to stay in the EEA
For 327 Against 126
Majority of 201 for the UK to Leave the Single Market0 -
If you go by his record almost certainly notkjohnw said:Starmer says the NI amendment passed last night makes No Deal Brexit impossible, and also renders the Max Fac option "unlawful". the amendment went through on the nod at 7:15 last night.
Is Starmer correct on this?0 -
Such a London centric view. Labour really isn't worried about losing voters in Lewisham over Brexit - it's close to a one party state now.kle4 said:
Unless my eyes deceive me Mike doesn't use the words independent or pollster in that letter, so I don't know where they're getting their ideas.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like his suggestion, in effect, to Labour voters that they will be helping Labour by voting LD, as it might help change Corbyn's mind on Brexit.0 -
Labour says around 90 MPs rebelled over EEA - 75 for, and 15 against0
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All's fair in politics and betting.... LD second nailed on?kle4 said:
Unless my eyes deceive me Mike doesn't use the words independent or pollster in that letter, so I don't know where they're getting their ideas.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like his suggestion, in effect, to Labour voters that they will be helping Labour by voting LD, as it might help change Corbyn's mind on Brexit.0 -
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https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1006976965591609345
Though he ignores Labour Leave rebels like Field, Hoey and Mann0 -
Interesting idea
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44471277
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Isabel Oakeshott is on QT tomorrow....0
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Good for him no one will notice because of all the focus to be on the government. Heck, no doubt most Lab voters who support EEA will still think Corbyn does as well tomorrow.HYUFD said:0 -
We will see what happens in Remain Lewisham East tomorrow but clearly he helped pass the vote the leave the EEA with a big majoritykle4 said:
Good for him no one will notice because of all the focus to be on the government. Heck, no doubt most Lab voters who support EEA will still think Corbyn does as well tomorrow.HYUFD said:0 -
I think it already is.brendan16 said:
Such a London centric view. Labour really isn't worried about losing voters in Lewisham over Brexit - it's close to a one party state now.kle4 said:
Unless my eyes deceive me Mike doesn't use the words independent or pollster in that letter, so I don't know where they're getting their ideas.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like his suggestion, in effect, to Labour voters that they will be helping Labour by voting LD, as it might help change Corbyn's mind on Brexit.0 -
Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
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House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union0 -
It's been a few months since we've had a 'new party' story do the rounds. I see they still haven't come up with a decent name for it yet.The_Apocalypse said:Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=210 -
Lol - Laura Smith resigned to vote AGAINST! the amendment on the EEA.0
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God help them, then.kle4 said:
I think it already is.brendan16 said:
Such a London centric view. Labour really isn't worried about losing voters in Lewisham over Brexit - it's close to a one party state now.kle4 said:
Unless my eyes deceive me Mike doesn't use the words independent or pollster in that letter, so I don't know where they're getting their ideas.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like his suggestion, in effect, to Labour voters that they will be helping Labour by voting LD, as it might help change Corbyn's mind on Brexit.
We have a Labour One Party State here in Wales, and we’re the worst run country in Europe.
For example, look at this:
https://tinyurl.com/y97s3nb2
“The business park has been in public ownership for over 20 years, more than £36 million has been spent on developing the site, installing infrastructure and marketing the site, yet we still do not have a single business employing local people."
Courtesy of the Labour Welsh Government and Swansea Council.
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Having these Brexit debates and votes now is perhaps good news for the LDs in Lewisham East because it probably raises the profile of the issue, even if only marginally.0
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Is that done for the government now? Surely the Lord's can't send this back with such comprehensive rejections of their amendments.0
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I'm told by some people I regard as sensible that Manchester is actually pretty well run despite being a one party state for a while (not quite at the moment), so it can be ok, but it worries me no matter the party.YBarddCwsc said:
God help them, then.kle4 said:
I think it already is.brendan16 said:
Such a London centric view. Labour really isn't worried about losing voters in Lewisham over Brexit - it's close to a one party state now.kle4 said:
Unless my eyes deceive me Mike doesn't use the words independent or pollster in that letter, so I don't know where they're getting their ideas.TheScreamingEagles said:
I like his suggestion, in effect, to Labour voters that they will be helping Labour by voting LD, as it might help change Corbyn's mind on Brexit.
We have a Labour One Party State here in Wales, and we’re the worst run country in Europe.
For example, look at this:
https://tinyurl.com/y97s3nb2
“The business park has been in public ownership for over 20 years, more than £36 million has been spent on developing the site, installing infrastructure and marketing the site, yet we still do not have a single business employing local people."
Courtesy of the Labour Welsh Government and Swansea Council.0 -
Indeed, I was surprised as to how convincingly the government won tbh. I thought after yesterday's palaver it would be a lot closer with more Tory rebellions.DavidL said:HYUFD said:House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.0 -
Maybe why TM was so much better at PMQ's before the SNP stage managed a walk outPulpstar said:
The commons seems to have gone a damned sight better for the Gov't than negotiating with Barnier !MaxPB said:Is that done for the government now? Surely the Lord's can't send this back with such comprehensive rejections of their amendments.
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It was and the one straight after flint's(soubry) was just out of touch on immigration.Mortimer said:
+1Casino_Royale said:
Agreed.Pulpstar said:
Aaron's work in the constituency forced Caroline to really get in touch with her constituents I think.tlg86 said:
As disappointing as it was for one of our own not to take the seat, I was quite pleased for Flint to survive as I think she's one of the better Labour MPs.Casino_Royale said:I’d vote for Caroline Flint over Anna Soubry any day of the week.
Caroline Flint's speech was impressive.
It shows that she gets it. And why EEA won't work. We need to leave the SM and CU.
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So did the SNP vote on any of the motions? It doesn't look like it from the numbers.0
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Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.0 -
For the EEAMaxPB said:So did the SNP vote on any of the motions? It doesn't look like it from the numbers.
Labour: 74
SNP: 32
Lib Dem: 11
Conservatives: 3 (Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry)
Plaid Cymru: 4
Independent: 2 - Sylvia Hermon and John Woodcock (suspended from Labour)
Greens: 10 -
How long did we have David Laws as a minister? I’m sure that was a week or so too.felix said:Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.0 -
I thought all the Conservatives who threatened rebellion had been bought off by promises from Mrs May - which she does not intend to keep. The worms may yet turn.MaxPB said:
Indeed, I was surprised as to how convincingly the government won tbh. I thought after yesterday's palaver it would be a lot closer with more Tory rebellions.DavidL said:HYUFD said:House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.0 -
Back Together?The_Apocalypse said:Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
It'll never catch on with a name like that...
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Yes, maybe surprising - if Con rebels are upset about what May did / did not promise yesterday, might they not have been expected to rebel on Customs Union?0
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He managed a couple of weeks I think - way more. You have to serve a week to make it official!Sandpit said:
How long did we have David Laws as a minister? I’m sure that was a week or so too.felix said:Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.0 -
So who abstained for the customs union vote? The government numbers look fairly solid, but loads are missing from the opposition benches.Pulpstar said:
For the EEAMaxPB said:So did the SNP vote on any of the motions? It doesn't look like it from the numbers.
Labour: 74
SNP: 32
Lib Dem: 11
Conservatives: 3 (Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry)
Plaid Cymru: 4
Independent: 2 - Sylvia Hermon and John Woodcock (suspended from Labour)
Greens: 10 -
The promises fell apart this morning though.PClipp said:
I thought all the Conservatives who threatened rebellion had been bought off by promises from Mrs May - which she does not intend to keep. The worms may yet turn.MaxPB said:
Indeed, I was surprised as to how convincingly the government won tbh. I thought after yesterday's palaver it would be a lot closer with more Tory rebellions.DavidL said:HYUFD said:House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.0 -
Sounds like a boy band revival - Take that!GIN1138 said:
Back Together?The_Apocalypse said:Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
It'll never catch on with a name like that...0 -
I just want EU back for good...felix said:
Sounds like a boy band revival - Take that!GIN1138 said:
Back Together?The_Apocalypse said:Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
It'll never catch on with a name like that...0 -
Is Corbyn the first leader to have resignations from both side of the argument on a single vote ?
Has anyone achieved that particular feat before ?
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Listening to this debate you'd have thought there was a majority for staying in the single market - I'm on a slight delay and its gone from Clarke to Benn and now to Grieve !
This bit of the debate isn't even particularly representative of parliament.0 -
I look forward to the infighting when they start arguing amongst themselves about what exactly "Back Together" involves, as I suspect that a time machine back to 2016 is not available.GIN1138 said:
Back Together?The_Apocalypse said:Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
It'll never catch on with a name like that...0 -
But Clarke and Grieve are the moderates in the Tory party, apparently.Pulpstar said:Listening to this debate you'd have thought there was a majority for staying in the single market - I'm on a slight delay and its gone from Clarke to Benn and now to Grieve !
This bit of the debate isn't even particularly representative of parliament.0 -
The Freedom of Movement issue cannot just be ignored in the way that some Europhiles imply. It was key to the Brexit vote two years ago - yet the political elite in all the major parties still appears seriously divorced from public opinion. I would have supported Caroline Flint et al in voting against the EEA.0
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Serious question. Why do Labour have so many PPS's? What do they do when you are in Opposition (other than resign)?0
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Wasn’t his book 9 Days in May? (Although that may have been the coalition negotiations!)Sandpit said:
How long did we have David Laws as a minister? I’m sure that was a week or so too.felix said:Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.0 -
The new party is actually going to be called Big Toenails.The_Apocalypse said:Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
You heard it here first.0 -
After today does it go to being "ping pong" with the Lords?
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.0 -
Of course they will, but hopefully enough unelected crossbenchers decide they have had enough of opposing the elected house and the people's vote.Philip_Thompson said:After today does it go to being "ping pong" with the Lords?
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.0 -
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to0
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"Back Together"? More like Back Passage if you ask me....glw said:
I look forward to the infighting when they start arguing amongst themselves about what exactly "Back Together" involves, as I suspect that a time machine back to 2016 is not available.GIN1138 said:
Back Together?The_Apocalypse said:Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
It'll never catch on with a name like that...
/RickyTomlinsonMode.....0 -
If she can’t leave the single market and can’t stay in it, it increases the chances that Brexit will hit the rocks.Big_G_NorthWales said:I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
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Latest Italian poll puts the two government parties on 58.5%:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Italian_general_election#20180 -
6 Democrat Senators?kle4 said:Interesting idea
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-444712770 -
The only difference between you and most politicians in Westminster is that you do not claim to be an expert!Big_G_NorthWales said:I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
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Not necessarily apparentlySandyRentool said:
6 Democrat Senators?kle4 said:Interesting idea
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44471277
California has 55 votes in the electoral college, and these have historically gone to Democratic candidates.
That could change if Cal-3 is approved, which could leave Democratic lawmakers uneasy about allowing the change.
Based on election data from the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, Southern California could become a swing state if the change is approved.
But I assume the whole thing was a non starter anyway.
Be interesting to see more states though - not sure if Puerto Rico will ever be one or not.0 -
Worse, it sounds like a Burton/Taylor marriage.felix said:
Sounds like a boy band revival - Take that!GIN1138 said:
Back Together?The_Apocalypse said:Good news for Tories who dislike Anna Soubry in here:
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
It'll never catch on with a name like that...0 -
By that you mean no deal which will be 100% failure for everyone, not least Barnier who will go down as the man who broke the EU, with help from the absurd Juncker.williamglenn said:
If she can’t leave the single market and can’t stay in it, it increases the chances that Brexit will hit the rocks.Big_G_NorthWales said:I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
We are not staying in the EU. Not politically possible now0 -
Conservative promises always do...MaxPB said:
The promises fell apart this morning though.PClipp said:
I thought all the Conservatives who threatened rebellion had been bought off by promises from Mrs May - which she does not intend to keep. The worms may yet turn.MaxPB said:
Indeed, I was surprised as to how convincingly the government won tbh. I thought after yesterday's palaver it would be a lot closer with more Tory rebellions.DavidL said:HYUFD said:House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.
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Rather unexpectedly it looks like the voting on the EU Withdrawal Bill will leave the PM stronger and Corbyn weaker, and with the Tories looking rather more united and disciplined than Labour.0
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To be fair, May has always rejected remaining in the Single Market and the Customs Union so it's only an affirmation of her view which is a reflection of Party loyalty (blind though that may be).Big_G_NorthWales said:I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
Rejection of the EEA (and the size of that rejection) surprised me. The Swiss are in the EEA and operate a bilateral relationship with the EU and we could have done the same so EFTA is out as well as a consequence.
I will have to wait until we see the detail of an A50 Agreement presented by May, Davis and Fox to the country (not that I'll get a say on it apparently) to get a sense of our future economic relationship with the EU. Some seem to think it will be a Canada Plus deal (which I thought had been discredited). It's also all very well to claim Freedom of Movement will end but it's also about what will replace it and when.
I will have to rely (apparently) on Conservative MPs to exercise their judgement and not just act out of blind loyalty. On that basis, tonight's actions do not fill me with confidence.0 -
Sounds like you read the same article from LA Times as I did. The process, even if passed on the ballot, has to go through the CA legislature (or the State's supreme court) and then through the US Congress. As the article states, risk aversion adoption, even with a ballot victory, very unlikely.kle4 said:
Not necessarily apparentlySandyRentool said:
6 Democrat Senators?kle4 said:Interesting idea
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44471277
California has 55 votes in the electoral college, and these have historically gone to Democratic candidates.
That could change if Cal-3 is approved, which could leave Democratic lawmakers uneasy about allowing the change.
Based on election data from the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, Southern California could become a swing state if the change is approved.
But I assume the whole thing was a non starter anyway.
Be interesting to see more states though - not sure if Puerto Rico will ever be one or not.0 -
No. Southern California could/would easily go Republican in non-Trump times (It voted Romney in 2012).SandyRentool said:
6 Democrat Senators?kle4 said:Interesting idea
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44471277
Draper's earlier "6 California" proposal was a naked attempt to wring Republican Electoral College and senators out of California.0 -
Until Clinton's win in 1992 California usually voted Republican at Presidential elections.SandyRentool said:
6 Democrat Senators?kle4 said:Interesting idea
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-444712770 -
I looked it up, he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury for 17 days, his book was called 22 days in May, covering the period from the election to his resignation.Charles said:
Wasn’t his book 9 Days in May? (Although that may have been the coalition negotiations!)Sandpit said:
How long did we have David Laws as a minister? I’m sure that was a week or so too.felix said:Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Laws0 -
Hardly unexpected - we know Labour is as divided as the Conservatives but the Conservative backbenchers have been "bought off" by it appears contradictory messages from May.steve_garner said:Rather unexpectedly it looks like the voting on the EU Withdrawal Bill will leave the PM stronger and Corbyn weaker, and with the Tories looking rather more united and disciplined than Labour.
As for "united and disciplined" inasmuch as they have realised it's better to hang together than hang separately, that's true but all the last 24 hours has done has papered over the growing Conservative cracks.0 -
Hm, not a hard feat but they definitely aren’t united. More surprised we haven’t heard anything from the DUP in recent days.steve_garner said:Rather unexpectedly it looks like the voting on the EU Withdrawal Bill will leave the PM stronger and Corbyn weaker, and with the Tories looking rather more united and disciplined than Labour.
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They don't like sharing the limelight I think, and know they have plenty of opportunities to make themselves heard yet.RobD said:
Hm, not a hard feat but they definitely aren’t united. More surprised we haven’t heard anything from the DUP in recent days.steve_garner said:Rather unexpectedly it looks like the voting on the EU Withdrawal Bill will leave the PM stronger and Corbyn weaker, and with the Tories looking rather more united and disciplined than Labour.
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Soubry's view seems to be we should let anyone who wants to come and live in the UK to do so as every single EU immigrant by definition of being an immigrant from the EU adds value, has skills and qualifications we need and will be a net contributor to society and in terms of taxes paid vs services and welfare consumed.. It is of course patent nonsense - many do many do not.Tykejohnno said:
It was and the one straight after flint's(soubry) was just out of touch on immigration.Mortimer said:
+1Casino_Royale said:
Agreed.Pulpstar said:
Aaron's work in the constituency forced Caroline to really get in touch with her constituents I think.tlg86 said:
As disappointing as it was for one of our own not to take the seat, I was quite pleased for Flint to survive as I think she's one of the better Labour MPs.Casino_Royale said:I’d vote for Caroline Flint over Anna Soubry any day of the week.
Caroline Flint's speech was impressive.
It shows that she gets it. And why EEA won't work. We need to leave the SM and CU.
So we end up with the patent nonsense of rejecting visas for non EU doctors while allowing in EU migrants who live on welfare or do 16 hours work a week and get paid more in tax credits and housing benefit.
The Australian, Canadian and Kiwi approach of only allowing skilled migrants irrespective of passport and nationality who will be net contributors to society or in tax terms seems beyond her.0 -
Every speech has outlined that Brexit means brexit means leaving the SM/CU.Big_G_NorthWales said:I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
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I totally agree. I also totally disagree.kle4 said:
Even if was not possible to square I've long thought we always overestimate the rationality of people, even ourselves. It's one reason political parties never have as much ideological purity as they often pretend they do, because people are quite capable of very passionately holding quite contradictory ideas at the same time.The_Apocalypse said:
Imagine being told you’re too harsh on the issue of immigration by Macron of all people.CarlottaVance said:“A nest of singing birds....”
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1006945003330068480?s=20
I hope Italian polls are just as flawed as some of the other polling we’ve been seeing in the last few years, because if we believe them then Italians are against mass immigration but are also pro Eurozone membership....how do you square that one?0 -
3/3 most likely (GOP gets SoCal, the Inland Empire and the Central Belt). Dems get LA, SF/Sacramento and Santa BarbaraSandyRentool said:
6 Democrat Senators?kle4 said:Interesting idea
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44471277
Free Socal from the Tyranny of the North0 -
Switzerland isn't on the EEA, it's in EFTA.stodge said:
To be fair, May has always rejected remaining in the Single Market and the Customs Union so it's only an affirmation of her view which is a reflection of Party loyalty (blind though that may be).Big_G_NorthWales said:I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
Rejection of the EEA (and the size of that rejection) surprised me. The Swiss are in the EEA and operate a bilateral relationship with the EU and we could have done the same so EFTA is out as well as a consequence.
I will have to wait until we see the detail of an A50 Agreement presented by May, Davis and Fox to the country (not that I'll get a say on it apparently) to get a sense of our future economic relationship with the EU. Some seem to think it will be a Canada Plus deal (which I thought had been discredited). It's also all very well to claim Freedom of Movement will end but it's also about what will replace it and when.
I will have to rely (apparently) on Conservative MPs to exercise their judgement and not just act out of blind loyalty. On that basis, tonight's actions do not fill me with confidence.0 -
Why is PB reporting on the antics of the Italian parliament?
Oh hang on, how depressing .0 -
Is it too late for Labour's shambles today to lead to a Lib Dem surge tomorrow in Lewisham?0
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I would assume parliamentary shenanigans rarely if ever lead to surges in by-elections, but even if it does lead to a surge it only matters for those with money on LDs in second. Which I do not unfortunately.steve_garner said:Is it too late for Labour's shambles today to lead to a Lib Dem surge tomorrow in Lewisham?
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https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1006973624958504960Philip_Thompson said:After today does it go to being "ping pong" with the Lords?
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.0 -
+1MarqueeMark said:
The only difference between you and most politicians in Westminster is that you do not claim to be an expert!Big_G_NorthWales said:I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
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I stated on here before the referendum my preference was for the UK to rejoin EFTA and seek to re-invigorate that organisation as a counterbalance to the EU.MaxPB said:Switzerland isn't on the EEA, it's in EFTA.
The Swiss have a network of bilateral arrangements with the EU and I've always thought we could have something similar.
Instead of making trite observations how about engaging in some debate for a change - would you support a Swiss-style arrangement for the UK (in EFFA, outside the EEA and with bespoke bilateral deals with the EU) ?0 -
Honestly don't get what he's on about.Scott_P said:0 -
FFS Douglas! Grow up!Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1006973624958504960Philip_Thompson said:After today does it go to being "ping pong" with the Lords?
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.
(Edit: Sarah is close to Major, so I suspect Douglas is just doing what he’s told. As usual
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Sums up BrexitRecidivist said:
I totally agree. I also totally disagree.kle4 said:
Even if was not possible to square I've long thought we always overestimate the rationality of people, even ourselves. It's one reason political parties never have as much ideological purity as they often pretend they do, because people are quite capable of very passionately holding quite contradictory ideas at the same time.The_Apocalypse said:
Imagine being told you’re too harsh on the issue of immigration by Macron of all people.CarlottaVance said:“A nest of singing birds....”
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1006945003330068480?s=20
I hope Italian polls are just as flawed as some of the other polling we’ve been seeing in the last few years, because if we believe them then Italians are against mass immigration but are also pro Eurozone membership....how do you square that one?0 -
Moat man Hogg to grow up? Sounds unlikely.Charles said:
FFS Douglas! Grow up!Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1006973624958504960Philip_Thompson said:After today does it go to being "ping pong" with the Lords?
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.
(Edit: Sarah is close to Major, so I suspect Douglas is just doing what he’s told. As usual )0 -
I can certainly see a lot of Labour Remain voters in the more middle class areas of the seat like Blackheath switching to the LDs to protest Corbyn's failure to support staying in the EEA but the more working class Leave areas of the seat will likely stay Laboursteve_garner said:Is it too late for Labour's shambles today to lead to a Lib Dem surge tomorrow in Lewisham?
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Interesting documentary on BBC1 at the moment too on Putin's Russia0
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He never claimed expenses for the moat...kle4 said:
Moat man Hogg to grow up? Sounds unlikely.Charles said:
FFS Douglas! Grow up!Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1006973624958504960Philip_Thompson said:After today does it go to being "ping pong" with the Lords?
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.
(Edit: Sarah is close to Major, so I suspect Douglas is just doing what he’s told. As usual )0 -
May just needs to stack the Lords already. They are completely vandalising our constitution. The government was elected on a manifesto of CU and SM exit.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1006973624958504960Philip_Thompson said:After today does it go to being "ping pong" with the Lords?
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.0 -
Of course - while the Government has steadfastly refused to be clear about its final objectives, two have remained constant since 24/6/16 - one, Freedom of Movement has to end and two, Britain's economic independence has to be re-asserted.Mortimer said:
Every speech has outlined that Brexit means brexit means leaving the SM/CU.
The first means we can't be part of the SM and the second means we can't be part of the CU since we wouldn't be able to negotiate bespoke trade deals with the rest of the world which is apparently something Fox is wanting to do though I'd rather trust my crown jewels to a psychopath with a rusty blade than have Fox anywhere near a trade deal.
I'd like us in EFTA on a Swiss-style basis with bespoke bilateral arrangements with the EU but even that would give some of the pro-Brexit contingent on here a fit of the vapours.0 -
+1brendan16 said:
Soubry's view seems to be we should let anyone who wants to come and live in the UK to do so as every single EU immigrant by definition of being an immigrant from the EU adds value, has skills and qualifications we need and will be a net contributor to society and in terms of taxes paid vs services and welfare consumed.. It is of course patent nonsense - many do many do not.Tykejohnno said:
It was and the one straight after flint's(soubry) was just out of touch on immigration.Mortimer said:
+1Casino_Royale said:
Agreed.Pulpstar said:
Aaron's work in the constituency forced Caroline to really get in touch with her constituents I think.tlg86 said:
As disappointing as it was for one of our own not to take the seat, I was quite pleased for Flint to survive as I think she's one of the better Labour MPs.Casino_Royale said:I’d vote for Caroline Flint over Anna Soubry any day of the week.
Caroline Flint's speech was impressive.
It shows that she gets it. And why EEA won't work. We need to leave the SM and CU.
So we end up with the patent nonsense of rejecting visas for non EU doctors while allowing in EU migrants who live on welfare or do 16 hours work a week and get paid more in tax credits and housing benefit.
The Australian, Canadian and Kiwi approach of only allowing skilled migrants irrespective of passport and nationality who will be net contributors to society or in tax terms seems beyond her.0 -
So the Lords is reduced to being "mischief makers for Remain".Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1006973624958504960Philip_Thompson said:After today does it go to being "ping pong" with the Lords?
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.
Remind me - what precisely is the case for not abolishing them?0
