That Guardian Galileo article isn’t quite as advertised (surprise surprise) as the EU wants to give the UK observer status and put cooperation onto a new basis.
Either way, it’s remarkably stupid. The UK and US collaborate far more closely on the F35, for example, as a “third country” including sharing software and security data. And even more so as part of five eyes, a collation of “third countries” that do more for mutual security than the EU’s common foreign and security policy ever has. The UK is already reaching out to Australia and it wouldn’t surprise me if a five eyes equivalent ended up being developed, entirely independent of the EU and a rival to it.
Why would the key member of five eyes create a rival to their own system?
Read the article: “Philip Hammond, warned that the UK would “have to go it alone, possibly with other partners outside Europe and the US, to build a third competing system”, if the EU maintained their position. It is understood that talks have opened with Australia on such a project.“
It may or may not involve the US at some level. I’d say it probably would.
The US has GPS, so my question stands. Why would they want to facilitate a rival to their own system?
They may not, but they may also be happy to share security data with us to a limited extent. They already do so in a number of areas to a far greater degree.
These things are far more flexible than you seem to think they are. China was originally an investment partner in Galileo, for example, before it decided to upgrade its own system instead.
It maybe that they just want a backup to their own at no cost to them. So much military hardware uses GPS today including missiles that the first target of a cyber attack would be the GPS system. Having a backup to your own using different security systems may well be views as a great idea. Especially as we can tell the Yanks how to hack the EU's system. GCHQ developed the encryption.
Starmer says the NI amendment passed last night makes No Deal Brexit impossible, and also renders the Max Fac option "unlawful". the amendment went through on the nod at 7:15 last night. Is Starmer correct on this?
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
Good for him no one will notice because of all the focus to be on the government. Heck, no doubt most Lab voters who support EEA will still think Corbyn does as well tomorrow.
Good for him no one will notice because of all the focus to be on the government. Heck, no doubt most Lab voters who support EEA will still think Corbyn does as well tomorrow.
We will see what happens in Remain Lewisham East tomorrow but clearly he helped pass the vote the leave the EEA with a big majority
“The business park has been in public ownership for over 20 years, more than £36 million has been spent on developing the site, installing infrastructure and marketing the site, yet we still do not have a single business employing local people."
Courtesy of the Labour Welsh Government and Swansea Council.
Having these Brexit debates and votes now is perhaps good news for the LDs in Lewisham East because it probably raises the profile of the issue, even if only marginally.
“The business park has been in public ownership for over 20 years, more than £36 million has been spent on developing the site, installing infrastructure and marketing the site, yet we still do not have a single business employing local people."
Courtesy of the Labour Welsh Government and Swansea Council.
I'm told by some people I regard as sensible that Manchester is actually pretty well run despite being a one party state for a while (not quite at the moment), so it can be ok, but it worries me no matter the party.
House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.
Indeed, I was surprised as to how convincingly the government won tbh. I thought after yesterday's palaver it would be a lot closer with more Tory rebellions.
I’d vote for Caroline Flint over Anna Soubry any day of the week.
As disappointing as it was for one of our own not to take the seat, I was quite pleased for Flint to survive as I think she's one of the better Labour MPs.
Aaron's work in the constituency forced Caroline to really get in touch with her constituents I think.
Agreed.
+1
Caroline Flint's speech was impressive.
It shows that she gets it. And why EEA won't work. We need to leave the SM and CU.
It was and the one straight after flint's(soubry) was just out of touch on immigration.
Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.
How long did we have David Laws as a minister? I’m sure that was a week or so too.
House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.
Indeed, I was surprised as to how convincingly the government won tbh. I thought after yesterday's palaver it would be a lot closer with more Tory rebellions.
I thought all the Conservatives who threatened rebellion had been bought off by promises from Mrs May - which she does not intend to keep. The worms may yet turn.
Yes, maybe surprising - if Con rebels are upset about what May did / did not promise yesterday, might they not have been expected to rebel on Customs Union?
Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.
How long did we have David Laws as a minister? I’m sure that was a week or so too.
He managed a couple of weeks I think - way more. You have to serve a week to make it official!
House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.
Indeed, I was surprised as to how convincingly the government won tbh. I thought after yesterday's palaver it would be a lot closer with more Tory rebellions.
I thought all the Conservatives who threatened rebellion had been bought off by promises from Mrs May - which she does not intend to keep. The worms may yet turn.
Listening to this debate you'd have thought there was a majority for staying in the single market - I'm on a slight delay and its gone from Clarke to Benn and now to Grieve ! This bit of the debate isn't even particularly representative of parliament.
I look forward to the infighting when they start arguing amongst themselves about what exactly "Back Together" involves, as I suspect that a time machine back to 2016 is not available.
Listening to this debate you'd have thought there was a majority for staying in the single market - I'm on a slight delay and its gone from Clarke to Benn and now to Grieve ! This bit of the debate isn't even particularly representative of parliament.
But Clarke and Grieve are the moderates in the Tory party, apparently.
The Freedom of Movement issue cannot just be ignored in the way that some Europhiles imply. It was key to the Brexit vote two years ago - yet the political elite in all the major parties still appears seriously divorced from public opinion. I would have supported Caroline Flint et al in voting against the EEA.
Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.
How long did we have David Laws as a minister? I’m sure that was a week or so too.
Wasn’t his book 9 Days in May? (Although that may have been the coalition negotiations!)
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
I look forward to the infighting when they start arguing amongst themselves about what exactly "Back Together" involves, as I suspect that a time machine back to 2016 is not available.
"Back Together"? More like Back Passage if you ask me....
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
If she can’t leave the single market and can’t stay in it, it increases the chances that Brexit will hit the rocks.
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
The only difference between you and most politicians in Westminster is that you do not claim to be an expert!
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
California has 55 votes in the electoral college, and these have historically gone to Democratic candidates.
That could change if Cal-3 is approved, which could leave Democratic lawmakers uneasy about allowing the change.
Based on election data from the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, Southern California could become a swing state if the change is approved.
But I assume the whole thing was a non starter anyway.
Be interesting to see more states though - not sure if Puerto Rico will ever be one or not.
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
If she can’t leave the single market and can’t stay in it, it increases the chances that Brexit will hit the rocks.
By that you mean no deal which will be 100% failure for everyone, not least Barnier who will go down as the man who broke the EU, with help from the absurd Juncker.
We are not staying in the EU. Not politically possible now
House of Commons votes down the Lords Amendment to negotiate staying in a Customs Union
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.
Indeed, I was surprised as to how convincingly the government won tbh. I thought after yesterday's palaver it would be a lot closer with more Tory rebellions.
I thought all the Conservatives who threatened rebellion had been bought off by promises from Mrs May - which she does not intend to keep. The worms may yet turn.
Rather unexpectedly it looks like the voting on the EU Withdrawal Bill will leave the PM stronger and Corbyn weaker, and with the Tories looking rather more united and disciplined than Labour.
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
To be fair, May has always rejected remaining in the Single Market and the Customs Union so it's only an affirmation of her view which is a reflection of Party loyalty (blind though that may be).
Rejection of the EEA (and the size of that rejection) surprised me. The Swiss are in the EEA and operate a bilateral relationship with the EU and we could have done the same so EFTA is out as well as a consequence.
I will have to wait until we see the detail of an A50 Agreement presented by May, Davis and Fox to the country (not that I'll get a say on it apparently) to get a sense of our future economic relationship with the EU. Some seem to think it will be a Canada Plus deal (which I thought had been discredited). It's also all very well to claim Freedom of Movement will end but it's also about what will replace it and when.
I will have to rely (apparently) on Conservative MPs to exercise their judgement and not just act out of blind loyalty. On that basis, tonight's actions do not fill me with confidence.
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
California has 55 votes in the electoral college, and these have historically gone to Democratic candidates.
That could change if Cal-3 is approved, which could leave Democratic lawmakers uneasy about allowing the change.
Based on election data from the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, Southern California could become a swing state if the change is approved.
But I assume the whole thing was a non starter anyway.
Be interesting to see more states though - not sure if Puerto Rico will ever be one or not.
Sounds like you read the same article from LA Times as I did. The process, even if passed on the ballot, has to go through the CA legislature (or the State's supreme court) and then through the US Congress. As the article states, risk aversion adoption, even with a ballot victory, very unlikely.
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
Spain: New minister for Culture quits after six days after being accused of tax evasion - shortest holder of a ministry ever in Spain. Says he "doesn't want to muddy the transparent waters" of the new PSOE government
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.
How long did we have David Laws as a minister? I’m sure that was a week or so too.
Wasn’t his book 9 Days in May? (Although that may have been the coalition negotiations!)
I looked it up, he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury for 17 days, his book was called 22 days in May, covering the period from the election to his resignation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Laws
Rather unexpectedly it looks like the voting on the EU Withdrawal Bill will leave the PM stronger and Corbyn weaker, and with the Tories looking rather more united and disciplined than Labour.
Hardly unexpected - we know Labour is as divided as the Conservatives but the Conservative backbenchers have been "bought off" by it appears contradictory messages from May.
As for "united and disciplined" inasmuch as they have realised it's better to hang together than hang separately, that's true but all the last 24 hours has done has papered over the growing Conservative cracks.
Rather unexpectedly it looks like the voting on the EU Withdrawal Bill will leave the PM stronger and Corbyn weaker, and with the Tories looking rather more united and disciplined than Labour.
Hm, not a hard feat but they definitely aren’t united. More surprised we haven’t heard anything from the DUP in recent days.
Rather unexpectedly it looks like the voting on the EU Withdrawal Bill will leave the PM stronger and Corbyn weaker, and with the Tories looking rather more united and disciplined than Labour.
Hm, not a hard feat but they definitely aren’t united. More surprised we haven’t heard anything from the DUP in recent days.
They don't like sharing the limelight I think, and know they have plenty of opportunities to make themselves heard yet.
I’d vote for Caroline Flint over Anna Soubry any day of the week.
As disappointing as it was for one of our own not to take the seat, I was quite pleased for Flint to survive as I think she's one of the better Labour MPs.
Aaron's work in the constituency forced Caroline to really get in touch with her constituents I think.
Agreed.
+1
Caroline Flint's speech was impressive.
It shows that she gets it. And why EEA won't work. We need to leave the SM and CU.
It was and the one straight after flint's(soubry) was just out of touch on immigration.
Soubry's view seems to be we should let anyone who wants to come and live in the UK to do so as every single EU immigrant by definition of being an immigrant from the EU adds value, has skills and qualifications we need and will be a net contributor to society and in terms of taxes paid vs services and welfare consumed.. It is of course patent nonsense - many do many do not.
So we end up with the patent nonsense of rejecting visas for non EU doctors while allowing in EU migrants who live on welfare or do 16 hours work a week and get paid more in tax credits and housing benefit.
The Australian, Canadian and Kiwi approach of only allowing skilled migrants irrespective of passport and nationality who will be net contributors to society or in tax terms seems beyond her.
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
Every speech has outlined that Brexit means brexit means leaving the SM/CU.
Imagine being told you’re too harsh on the issue of immigration by Macron of all people.
I hope Italian polls are just as flawed as some of the other polling we’ve been seeing in the last few years, because if we believe them then Italians are against mass immigration but are also pro Eurozone membership....how do you square that one?
Even if was not possible to square I've long thought we always overestimate the rationality of people, even ourselves. It's one reason political parties never have as much ideological purity as they often pretend they do, because people are quite capable of very passionately holding quite contradictory ideas at the same time.
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
To be fair, May has always rejected remaining in the Single Market and the Customs Union so it's only an affirmation of her view which is a reflection of Party loyalty (blind though that may be).
Rejection of the EEA (and the size of that rejection) surprised me. The Swiss are in the EEA and operate a bilateral relationship with the EU and we could have done the same so EFTA is out as well as a consequence.
I will have to wait until we see the detail of an A50 Agreement presented by May, Davis and Fox to the country (not that I'll get a say on it apparently) to get a sense of our future economic relationship with the EU. Some seem to think it will be a Canada Plus deal (which I thought had been discredited). It's also all very well to claim Freedom of Movement will end but it's also about what will replace it and when.
I will have to rely (apparently) on Conservative MPs to exercise their judgement and not just act out of blind loyalty. On that basis, tonight's actions do not fill me with confidence.
Is it too late for Labour's shambles today to lead to a Lib Dem surge tomorrow in Lewisham?
I would assume parliamentary shenanigans rarely if ever lead to surges in by-elections, but even if it does lead to a surge it only matters for those with money on LDs in second. Which I do not unfortunately.
I do not claim to be an expert but with big defeats today for joining the EEA and staying in the single market does that not strengthen Brexit for TM. How can she negotiate now a Norway deal or single market membership even if she wanted to
The only difference between you and most politicians in Westminster is that you do not claim to be an expert!
I stated on here before the referendum my preference was for the UK to rejoin EFTA and seek to re-invigorate that organisation as a counterbalance to the EU.
The Swiss have a network of bilateral arrangements with the EU and I've always thought we could have something similar.
Instead of making trite observations how about engaging in some debate for a change - would you support a Swiss-style arrangement for the UK (in EFFA, outside the EEA and with bespoke bilateral deals with the EU) ?
Imagine being told you’re too harsh on the issue of immigration by Macron of all people.
I hope Italian polls are just as flawed as some of the other polling we’ve been seeing in the last few years, because if we believe them then Italians are against mass immigration but are also pro Eurozone membership....how do you square that one?
Even if was not possible to square I've long thought we always overestimate the rationality of people, even ourselves. It's one reason political parties never have as much ideological purity as they often pretend they do, because people are quite capable of very passionately holding quite contradictory ideas at the same time.
Is it too late for Labour's shambles today to lead to a Lib Dem surge tomorrow in Lewisham?
I can certainly see a lot of Labour Remain voters in the more middle class areas of the seat like Blackheath switching to the LDs to protest Corbyn's failure to support staying in the EEA but the more working class Leave areas of the seat will likely stay Labour
May just needs to stack the Lords already. They are completely vandalising our constitution. The government was elected on a manifesto of CU and SM exit.
Every speech has outlined that Brexit means brexit means leaving the SM/CU.
Of course - while the Government has steadfastly refused to be clear about its final objectives, two have remained constant since 24/6/16 - one, Freedom of Movement has to end and two, Britain's economic independence has to be re-asserted.
The first means we can't be part of the SM and the second means we can't be part of the CU since we wouldn't be able to negotiate bespoke trade deals with the rest of the world which is apparently something Fox is wanting to do though I'd rather trust my crown jewels to a psychopath with a rusty blade than have Fox anywhere near a trade deal.
I'd like us in EFTA on a Swiss-style basis with bespoke bilateral arrangements with the EU but even that would give some of the pro-Brexit contingent on here a fit of the vapours.
I’d vote for Caroline Flint over Anna Soubry any day of the week.
As disappointing as it was for one of our own not to take the seat, I was quite pleased for Flint to survive as I think she's one of the better Labour MPs.
Aaron's work in the constituency forced Caroline to really get in touch with her constituents I think.
Agreed.
+1
Caroline Flint's speech was impressive.
It shows that she gets it. And why EEA won't work. We need to leave the SM and CU.
It was and the one straight after flint's(soubry) was just out of touch on immigration.
Soubry's view seems to be we should let anyone who wants to come and live in the UK to do so as every single EU immigrant by definition of being an immigrant from the EU adds value, has skills and qualifications we need and will be a net contributor to society and in terms of taxes paid vs services and welfare consumed.. It is of course patent nonsense - many do many do not.
So we end up with the patent nonsense of rejecting visas for non EU doctors while allowing in EU migrants who live on welfare or do 16 hours work a week and get paid more in tax credits and housing benefit.
The Australian, Canadian and Kiwi approach of only allowing skilled migrants irrespective of passport and nationality who will be net contributors to society or in tax terms seems beyond her.
Comments
I like his suggestion, in effect, to Labour voters that they will be helping Labour by voting LD, as it might help change Corbyn's mind on Brexit.
For 327 Against 126
Majority of 201 for the UK to Leave the Single Market
Though he ignores Labour Leave rebels like Field, Hoey and Mann
A billionaire venture capitalist's bid to split California into three separate states has earned a spot on the ballot in November's mid-term elections.
If Tim Draper's Cal-3 initiative gets a majority vote, it would trigger a long process to split California into northern, southern and central states.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44471277
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1006949808815443969?s=21
For 325 Against 298
Majority of 27 to leave the Customs Union
Government numbers are pretty solid in all these votes. Not really had a close one yet.
We have a Labour One Party State here in Wales, and we’re the worst run country in Europe.
For example, look at this:
https://tinyurl.com/y97s3nb2
“The business park has been in public ownership for over 20 years, more than £36 million has been spent on developing the site, installing infrastructure and marketing the site, yet we still do not have a single business employing local people."
Courtesy of the Labour Welsh Government and Swansea Council.
Of course PSOE don't do corruption.
Labour: 74
SNP: 32
Lib Dem: 11
Conservatives: 3 (Ken Clarke, Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry)
Plaid Cymru: 4
Independent: 2 - Sylvia Hermon and John Woodcock (suspended from Labour)
Greens: 1
It'll never catch on with a name like that...
Has anyone achieved that particular feat before ?
This bit of the debate isn't even particularly representative of parliament.
You heard it here first.
If I was a Lords mischief-making Remainer I'd propose an amendment that is remarkably similar to the Grieve amendment that got dropped yesterday.
/RickyTomlinsonMode.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Italian_general_election#2018
California has 55 votes in the electoral college, and these have historically gone to Democratic candidates.
That could change if Cal-3 is approved, which could leave Democratic lawmakers uneasy about allowing the change.
Based on election data from the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, Southern California could become a swing state if the change is approved.
But I assume the whole thing was a non starter anyway.
Be interesting to see more states though - not sure if Puerto Rico will ever be one or not.
We are not staying in the EU. Not politically possible now
Rejection of the EEA (and the size of that rejection) surprised me. The Swiss are in the EEA and operate a bilateral relationship with the EU and we could have done the same so EFTA is out as well as a consequence.
I will have to wait until we see the detail of an A50 Agreement presented by May, Davis and Fox to the country (not that I'll get a say on it apparently) to get a sense of our future economic relationship with the EU. Some seem to think it will be a Canada Plus deal (which I thought had been discredited). It's also all very well to claim Freedom of Movement will end but it's also about what will replace it and when.
I will have to rely (apparently) on Conservative MPs to exercise their judgement and not just act out of blind loyalty. On that basis, tonight's actions do not fill me with confidence.
Draper's earlier "6 California" proposal was a naked attempt to wring Republican Electoral College and senators out of California.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Laws
As for "united and disciplined" inasmuch as they have realised it's better to hang together than hang separately, that's true but all the last 24 hours has done has papered over the growing Conservative cracks.
So we end up with the patent nonsense of rejecting visas for non EU doctors while allowing in EU migrants who live on welfare or do 16 hours work a week and get paid more in tax credits and housing benefit.
The Australian, Canadian and Kiwi approach of only allowing skilled migrants irrespective of passport and nationality who will be net contributors to society or in tax terms seems beyond her.
Free Socal from the Tyranny of the North
Oh hang on, how depressing .
The Swiss have a network of bilateral arrangements with the EU and I've always thought we could have something similar.
Instead of making trite observations how about engaging in some debate for a change - would you support a Swiss-style arrangement for the UK (in EFFA, outside the EEA and with bespoke bilateral deals with the EU) ?
(Edit: Sarah is close to Major, so I suspect Douglas is just doing what he’s told. As usual
The first means we can't be part of the SM and the second means we can't be part of the CU since we wouldn't be able to negotiate bespoke trade deals with the rest of the world which is apparently something Fox is wanting to do though I'd rather trust my crown jewels to a psychopath with a rusty blade than have Fox anywhere near a trade deal.
I'd like us in EFTA on a Swiss-style basis with bespoke bilateral arrangements with the EU but even that would give some of the pro-Brexit contingent on here a fit of the vapours.
Remind me - what precisely is the case for not abolishing them?