politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Despite an overwhelming majority of voters thinking Brexit is
Comments
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that depends on what permissions they are given by the Germans. There are various types of residency.TOPPING said:
I still don't understand. Can a Syrian refugee who arrives in Germany today come straight to the UK? And if so, in what capacity (tourist, future PM, long term leave to remain, etc)?Alanbrooke said:
can come by right Mr T as youre wnautaire.TOPPING said:
What do you mean "can come to"? Anyone "can come to" the UK, just about.Alanbrooke said:
au contraireTOPPING said:
Agree. Shocking.Alanbrooke said:
Mrs Merkel is largely the source of henion she should consult her neighbours as to the consequencesTOPPING said:
Er, yes to the Italy andof Brexit we get.Alanbrooke said:
ah the xenophobe blusterTOPPING said:
Yes very droll. Lable facts.Alanbrooke said:
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankersTOPPING said:
Leave won beo them.Alanbrooke said:
chortleAlastairMeeks said:
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.YBarddCwsc said:
Ludicrous.AlastairMeeks said:
It ds to prevent.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
e Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
she hasnt done any of that.
But nothing to do with the instit ours.
anyone Merkel lets in can come to UK
the EU is now threatening countries that refuse to take the people Merkel doesn't want
EU money will be used for a crisis Merkel created
In truth she was plain wrong. Cameron's approach of refugee support was correct and is also in line with what war refugees themselves want
hence the Germans not knowing what papers have been issued is a bit of a problem
any way fun as this is I now have to do some chores, enjoy Kim and Don :-)0 -
Asimov fan by any chance? Welcome.The_Mule_ said:The guilt by association arguments are becoming tedious.
I don't care that Putin supports Trump or Brexit, I dont care that Gerry Adams supports Corbyn or Jimmy Saville loved Maggie. That Liam Brady was a Lib Dem, Fred West a Residents Association man, and Noel Edmunds a Green. I dont make up my mind based on who's side I'm on, or which side has the less twats, I make up my mind based on the issues as I understand them. So lets discuss those issues please not the bellends that attach themselves to any cause.
So please I come to Pb (long time lurker) to hear the issues not a tedious 'someone who voted the same way as you is a wrong 'un so that means what you voted is evil.'0 -
Brexiteers did not sign up to anything in December - May (a Remainer) did that. The Brexiteers were not at all happy. Then, as I recall, she then briefed out to all the Brexiteers that the backstop text was just a form of words to allow us to discuss the trade agreement and that it didn't mean anything.david_herdson said:
I don't think that's true. The only conclusion I can reach from last December is that the brexiteers didn't understand what they'd signed up to. I think that when it's spelled out in black and white, the chances of No Deal increase dramatically. From where we are at the moment, they could well be topside of 50%.AlastairMeeks said:
A deal will probably be done in the end, probably essentially on the EU's terms. I'd put the chance of No Deal at no more than 20% and probably lower now.Cyclefree said:
I am not following the ins and outs at the moment but am assuming that No Deal is more likely than not. Would that be a fair assessment?
The time when No Deal was more likely was in the run-up to last December. When the Leavers blinked then, a deal became the great likelihood. We are now just observing the long march towards the negotiated surrender.
It was May who either did not understand what she signed up for, or more likely was completely outmanoeuvred by Barnier who she obviously was daft enough to think was dealing in good faith.
No deal chance increased when May did not walk in February when the EU provided the totally unacceptable backstop text. The moment she tried to work out how to concede on that, she started running out of road.0 -
Employment stats:
38,000 Fewer Xenophobes Unemployed
Wage Growth Among Xenophobes Up 2.8%0 -
The Leave campaign fell in behind xenophobic lies. That is the nature of the victory that has to be delivered. Look at the front pages of the newspapers this morning. Leave enabled that. This is the country that Leave campaigners have produced. Until enough Leave campaigners realise that there are more important things for the body politic than whether or not Britain is in the EU, questions of a customs union or the single market are entirely moot.DavidL said:
Leave won because we really don't like the EU very much. Even many that voted remain don't like it; they were just scared of the consequences. That is what we need to address. We need to leave. Everything else is up for reasonable discussion but bad losers really don't advance the argument. Make the case for a CU. Make the case for membership of the SM. Engage. Don't sit there in the huff accusing people of being xenophobes because they disagreed with you.AlastairMeeks said:
You're missing the point. Leave won. The nature of its victory must now be addressed. So it's not about blaming xenophobic lies, it's about how you incorporate those xenophobic lies into the body politic.
That's why Leave has been so utterly unpersuasive to date - many Remain supporters cannot countenance getting anywhere near that campaign. That's why Leave has floundered in setting a positive agenda or in identifying a future course of action for the country that the EU will work with - all it had were xenophobic lies to secure victory. That's why national newspapers two years on are putting fascist tropes on their front pages to bully MPs into a highly tendentious view of what the referendum vote required.
Until Leavers come to terms with the basis of their own victory, the country will continue in its divided state, on a downward spiral.
It seems that Remain supporters are more clear-eyed about the consequences of this than Leave supporters, who are so exultant about having recaptured their precious that they have failed to notice that they sold their souls to do so.0 -
They're pestering me to let them wash my car in Sainsbury's car park. Meanwhile automatic car washes close downDavidL said:
440k more people working than a year earlier. What the hell are they all doing? Where is the increase in output?another_richard said:Increase in redundancies from 96k to 107k in the employment data as retail apocalypse begins to make an impact:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/june2018
On the other hand unemployment falls, employment rises and vacancies increase as well.
Pay rises remain subdued with public sector almost as high as private sector.
https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/11611-automatic-car-washes-closing-down/
Meanwhile, people change jobs more often than they used to and have reduced security, sometimes little more than a self-employed independent contractor would have. This results in a decline in productivity:
a) employees feel less loyal to someone who gives them few/no employment rights or even uses a zero hours contract
b) a person new to a job tends to be less productive until they're familiar with it.0 -
Where does it get us ?david_herdson said:
Yes, but where does that get us? Trump has rehabilitated the Kim regime for a set of aspirations, all of which had been agreed in previous statements.As far as I can tell, the only firm commitment Kim has given is to repatriate the remains of Korean War PoWs and MIAs.NickPalmer said:
The meeting was all about symbolism, so your point 1 applies, and up to a point so does point 4. But that doesn't make it a waste of time. If there's one thing we know about Trump, it's that he's driven by personal instinct. He seems to have satisfied himself that Kim is on the level, and Kim can reasonably hope that he will impulsively order some concessions on sanctions. We've just seen at the G8 that Trump doesn't go along with vague agreements unless he essentially likes the people he's dealing with.david_herdson said:OK, leaders only sign something after a couple of hours if (one or more of):
- It doesn't really say anything important;
- One side is dictating terms;
- One side isn't paying attention;
- It was all agreed beforehand
Guesses?
To the end of Trump's term without a nuclear exchange, probably.*
Interesting to note that the US was struggling with terminological confusion ahead of the summit:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/bolton-pompeo-trump-and-kim-all-have-different-ideas-about-what-the-d-in-cvid-stands-for.html?
The US have signed up for denuclearisation of the peninsula - which implies their forces as well (and NK will certainly interpret it as such).
While Trump's worst instincts (i.e. Bolton's instincts) are under control, we all ought to sleep slightly better at night.
The leaders having met does mean that some of their prestige is tied up with the continuation of the process - and that is not the smallest consideration in Trump's case... or the short guy's for that matter.
*For which I'd happily grant him the peace prize....0 -
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Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
A serious problem Remain had was that for decades politicians had tried triangulating the EU, lacking the intelligence/courage to either be properly sceptical or actually make the case for the EU. There were often sceptic sounds accompanied by sell-out actions (cf Lisbon and the referendum-that-never-was). But you can't triangulate in a binary choice referendum. There's no soft and fuzzy middle way. It's in, or out.
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Marginal employment.DavidL said:
440k more people working than a year earlier. What the hell are they all doing? Where is the increase in output?another_richard said:Increase in redundancies from 96k to 107k in the employment data as retail apocalypse begins to make an impact:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/june2018
On the other hand unemployment falls, employment rises and vacancies increase as well.
Pay rises remain subdued with public sector almost as high as private sector.0 -
It's still up for grabs. I for one do not think that the vote for Leave settled everything and that it is open to May or anyone else to define what that meant beyond the fact of leaving. The lack of a meaningful discussion about what we want our relationship to be with the EU after we leave has been an enormous weakness, both inside the government and out. It really is time we moved on.Scott_P said:
The case was made.DavidL said:Make the case for a CU. Make the case for membership of the SM. Engage.
And dismissed as "Project fear" by Brexiteers who claimed "we have had enough of experts"0 -
Oh fun, we're rewinding back to xenophobic lies. Sometimes it feels like certain record players really are broken beyond repair.0
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While I agree with that, it does not mean one should automatically dismiss allegations of covert and likely illegal electoral interference.The_Mule_ said:The guilt by association arguments are becoming tedious.
I don't care that Putin supports Trump or Brexit, I dont care that Gerry Adams supports Corbyn or Jimmy Saville loved Maggie. That Liam Brady was a Lib Dem, Fred West a Residents Association man, and Noel Edmunds a Green. I dont make up my mind based on who's side I'm on, or which side has the less twats, I make up my mind based on the issues as I understand them. So lets discuss those issues please not the bellends that attach themselves to any cause.
So please I come to Pb (long time lurker) to hear the issues not a tedious 'someone who voted the same way as you is a wrong 'un so that means what you voted is evil.'0 -
You quote the full quote. Jeez what am I your Google bitch?Philip_Thompson said:
Nope. Quote the full quote.TOPPING said:
He said it. It's not too tricky a sentence to deconstruct.Philip_Thompson said:
The SoS has never said it in the way you misinterpret it.TOPPING said:
Hey guv'nor don't blame me, take it up with the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU.Philip_Thompson said:
Except that's not true. I think you're displaying your ignorance on what "always were sovereign" actually means once more.TOPPING said:Agree. Shocking.
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.0 -
I would like to say that being self-employed does not reduce productivity but having spent the last hour or so on PB....Time for work.rural_voter said:
They're pestering me to let them wash my car in Sainsbury's car park. Meanwhile automatic car washes close downDavidL said:
440k more people working than a year earlier. What the hell are they all doing? Where is the increase in output?another_richard said:Increase in redundancies from 96k to 107k in the employment data as retail apocalypse begins to make an impact:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/june2018
On the other hand unemployment falls, employment rises and vacancies increase as well.
Pay rises remain subdued with public sector almost as high as private sector.
https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/11611-automatic-car-washes-closing-down/
Meanwhile, people change jobs more often than they used to and have reduced security, sometimes little more than a self-employed independent contractor would have. This results in a decline in productivity:
a) employees feel less loyal to someone who gives them few/no employment rights or even uses a zero hours contract
b) a person new to a job tends to be less productive until they're familiar with it.0 -
It's all fun and games till the pink haired young man starts sobbing on stage.Nigelb said:
While I agree with that, it does not mean one should automatically dismiss allegations of covert and likely illegal electoral interference.The_Mule_ said:The guilt by association arguments are becoming tedious.
I don't care that Putin supports Trump or Brexit, I dont care that Gerry Adams supports Corbyn or Jimmy Saville loved Maggie. That Liam Brady was a Lib Dem, Fred West a Residents Association man, and Noel Edmunds a Green. I dont make up my mind based on who's side I'm on, or which side has the less twats, I make up my mind based on the issues as I understand them. So lets discuss those issues please not the bellends that attach themselves to any cause.
So please I come to Pb (long time lurker) to hear the issues not a tedious 'someone who voted the same way as you is a wrong 'un so that means what you voted is evil.'0 -
Context matters TOPPING. You can't just snip a few words out of context from the rest of the sentence let alone speech as often that will completely change its meaning. I can do the same to you otherwise.
In this thread you have written that on the topic of non-EU migration that Merkel should
Other quotes include:TOPPING said:have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
TOPPING said:nice people voted Leave.
TOPPING said:malign forces will continue to be our neighbours whatever flavour of Brexit we get.
TOPPING said:50% of the UK is racist or xenophobic
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Elections are won by winning over the undecided voters in the middle. Do you honestly think that Aaron Banks and Farage swung the vote by convincing a couple of million centrist voters to vote Leave by tapping into their latent xenophobia?AlastairMeeks said:
The Leave campaign fell in behind xenophobic lies. That is the nature of the victory that has to be delivered. Look at the front pages of the newspapers this morning. Leave enabled that. This is the country that Leave campaigners have produced. Until enough Leave campaigners realise that there are more important things for the body politic than whether or not Britain is in the EU, questions of a customs union or the single market are entirely moot.DavidL said:
Leave won because we really don't like the EU very much. Even many that voted remain don't like it; they were just scared of the consequences. That is what we need to address. We need to leave. Everything else is up for reasonable discussion but bad losers really don't advance the argument. Make the case for a CU. Make the case for membership of the SM. Engage. Don't sit there in the huff accusing people of being xenophobes because they disagreed with you.AlastairMeeks said:
You're missing the point. Leave won. The nature of its victory must now be addressed. So it's not about blaming xenophobic lies, it's about how you incorporate those xenophobic lies into the body politic.
That's why Leave has been so utterly unpersuasive to date - many Remain supporters cannot countenance getting anywhere near that campaign. That's why Leave has floundered in setting a positive agenda or in identifying a future course of action for the country that the EU will work with - all it had were xenophobic lies to secure victory. That's why national newspapers two years on are putting fascist tropes on their front pages to bully MPs into a highly tendentious view of what the referendum vote required.
Until Leavers come to terms with the basis of their own victory, the country will continue in its divided state, on a downward spiral.
It seems that Remain supporters are more clear-eyed about the consequences of this than Leave supporters, who are so exultant about having recaptured their precious that they have failed to notice that they sold their souls to do so.
If anything would've put me off voting Leave it would've been Aaron Banks. The man is a fucking tosser. Dominic Cummings showed his street-smarts by avoiding him like the plague.
By the way, your sneering hatred of British voters definitely outweighs the hatred Britain's rampaging working class xenophobes have for all those foreigners we live next door to.
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That's unlike you to be so snide, David. Every time May tries "to define what that meant beyond the fact of leaving" she is shouted down as a traitor.DavidL said:
It's still up for grabs. I for one do not think that the vote for Leave settled everything and that it is open to May or anyone else to define what that meant beyond the fact of leaving. The lack of a meaningful discussion about what we want our relationship to be with the EU after we leave has been an enormous weakness, both inside the government and out. It really is time we moved on.Scott_P said:
The case was made.DavidL said:Make the case for a CU. Make the case for membership of the SM. Engage.
And dismissed as "Project fear" by Brexiteers who claimed "we have had enough of experts"0 -
53.9% Leave according to Guido. Interesting to know the extent of the constituency though, Bracknell’s a place of very varied demographics.bigjohnowls said:
How did Bracknell vote on BREXIT?RoyalBlue said:
I don’t think many people in the Tory Party will have much to do with this man, doing what he’s done on a day like today.AlastairMeeks said:
Who is he representing?
He’s going to have to be lucky not to get deselected for a stunt like resigning today.0 -
Absolutely.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
A serious problem Remain had was that for decades politicians had tried triangulating the EU, lacking the intelligence/courage to either be properly sceptical or actually make the case for the EU. There were often sceptic sounds accompanied by sell-out actions (cf Lisbon and the referendum-that-never-was). But you can't triangulate in a binary choice referendum. There's no soft and fuzzy middle way. It's in, or out.
They also used it as a boogeyman to give a fig-leaf to their own decisions: "No, we have to do this because of the EU" when they were at best gold-plating to excess and at worst being directly dishonest.
Then, to their profound surprise, they find out people actually believed them in the past.
The EU didn't help matters by actually doing a bunch of things that were at least similar enough to the sort of things the politicians ascribed to them, increasing the credibility of the politicians' slopey-shoulderedness, and having a constant tin ear to complaints about democracy and pressure to go further.0 -
State Pensions increased by 3% so most Xenophobes got that.Fenster said:Employment stats:
38,000 Fewer Xenophobes Unemployed
Wage Growth Among Xenophobes Up 2.8%0 -
Anyway, the discussion has once more degenerated into out-group signalling and insults from all sides, so probably not worth continuing until at least the next thread.0
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I can’t believe he met that lunatic. Kim Jong-un has gone right down in my estimations!!!0
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I am not being snide at all. Personally I think we have to give weight to the fact that the vote was close. I want a soft Brexit with large scale cooperation with the EU. I think that properly reflects where we are as a country. The people shouting are some Brexit extremists who are trying to own the vote and claim it means things it didn't. The remainers should be making the counter argument and some are but most are still in the huff about the result and coming out with trite nonsense like you Brexit, you own it or xenophobic lies. We are missing their contribution to the debate and it is making May's life more difficult than it was already.TOPPING said:
That's unlike you to be so snide, David. Every time May tries "to define what that meant beyond the fact of leaving" she is shouted down as a traitor.DavidL said:
It's still up for grabs. I for one do not think that the vote for Leave settled everything and that it is open to May or anyone else to define what that meant beyond the fact of leaving. The lack of a meaningful discussion about what we want our relationship to be with the EU after we leave has been an enormous weakness, both inside the government and out. It really is time we moved on.Scott_P said:
The case was made.DavidL said:Make the case for a CU. Make the case for membership of the SM. Engage.
And dismissed as "Project fear" by Brexiteers who claimed "we have had enough of experts"
And now I really must get to work.0 -
In gaming news, E3 is almost over and it looks to me as if Sony are gearing up for a PS5 in November of 2019. Not a single game shown last night was scheduled to release after that date and 10 out of their 16 studios are silently working on something unknown and with no date attached. Bring on the good times!
The new CD Projekt Red game looks decidedly uninspiring, which is a shame after TW3 was so amazing. I think they will struggle to fill out an almost original concept world. With TW most of the work was done for them by the writer, with this the original writer already seems disappointed.0 -
David Cameron's musings, policy, words and action on immigration were the biggest driver of all.Andy_Cooke said:
Absolutely.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
A serious problem Remain had was that for decades politicians had tried triangulating the EU, lacking the intelligence/courage to either be properly sceptical or actually make the case for the EU. There were often sceptic sounds accompanied by sell-out actions (cf Lisbon and the referendum-that-never-was). But you can't triangulate in a binary choice referendum. There's no soft and fuzzy middle way. It's in, or out.
They also used it as a boogeyman to give a fig-leaf to their own decisions: "No, we have to do this because of the EU" when they were at best gold-plating to excess and at worst being directly dishonest.
Then, to their profound surprise, they find out people actually believed them in the past.
The EU didn't help matters by actually doing a bunch of things that were at least similar enough to the sort of things the politicians ascribed to them, increasing the credibility of the politicians' slopey-shoulderedness, and having a constant tin ear to complaints about democracy and pressure to go further.
The 330,000 immigration number that came out during the campaign was absolute dynamite to his whole schtick.0 -
UK Growth is more disappointing than a disappointing thing.
Discuss0 -
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Wish harder, damnit!bigjohnowls said:UK Growth is more disappointing than a disappointing thing.
Discuss0 -
Since the release of the PSX subsequent models have taken 6, 6 and 7 years to be launched. 2019 will be 6 years after PS4's launch so it does sound believable.MaxPB said:In gaming news, E3 is almost over and it looks to me as if Sony are gearing up for a PS5 in November of 2019. Not a single game shown last night was scheduled to release after that date and 10 out of their 16 studios are silently working on something unknown and with no date attached. Bring on the good times!
The new CD Projekt Red game looks decidedly uninspiring, which is a shame after TW3 was so amazing. I think they will struggle to fill out an almost original concept world. With TW most of the work was done for them by the writer, with this the original writer already seems disappointed.
EDIT: I'd more expect 2020 though. If games are already scheduled to be launched until just before the 'holiday season' of 2019 then that probably will be the last huzzah of PS4 games.0 -
You keep saying that Gove was misquoted but have you actually read your link? It confirms Gove did say: I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
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ANYTHING BUT BREXITScott_P said:
Wish harder, damnit!bigjohnowls said:UK Growth is more disappointing than a disappointing thing.
Discuss
Discuss !!!!!!!!!0 -
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Absolutely. Banks and anyone else implicated should answer to the Select Committees and then - if the Committee thinks it warrents it - to the police and CPS.Nigelb said:
While I agree with that, it does not mean one should automatically dismiss allegations of covert and likely illegal electoral interference.The_Mule_ said:The guilt by association arguments are becoming tedious.
I don't care that Putin supports Trump or Brexit, I dont care that Gerry Adams supports Corbyn or Jimmy Saville loved Maggie. That Liam Brady was a Lib Dem, Fred West a Residents Association man, and Noel Edmunds a Green. I dont make up my mind based on who's side I'm on, or which side has the less twats, I make up my mind based on the issues as I understand them. So lets discuss those issues please not the bellends that attach themselves to any cause.
So please I come to Pb (long time lurker) to hear the issues not a tedious 'someone who voted the same way as you is a wrong 'un so that means what you voted is evil.'0 -
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I think the most damaging thing about the migration stats was that finally, finally migration from the A8 countries had slowed down but almost immediately the accession controls came off Romania and sent the net migration figures to record levels as loads of unskilled Romanians turned up at Heathrow looking for work.Pulpstar said:
David Cameron's musings, policy, words and action on immigration were the biggest driver of all.Andy_Cooke said:
Absolutely.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
A serious problem Remain had was that for decades politicians had tried triangulating the EU, lacking the intelligence/courage to either be properly sceptical or actually make the case for the EU. There were often sceptic sounds accompanied by sell-out actions (cf Lisbon and the referendum-that-never-was). But you can't triangulate in a binary choice referendum. There's no soft and fuzzy middle way. It's in, or out.
They also used it as a boogeyman to give a fig-leaf to their own decisions: "No, we have to do this because of the EU" when they were at best gold-plating to excess and at worst being directly dishonest.
Then, to their profound surprise, they find out people actually believed them in the past.
The EU didn't help matters by actually doing a bunch of things that were at least similar enough to the sort of things the politicians ascribed to them, increasing the credibility of the politicians' slopey-shoulderedness, and having a constant tin ear to complaints about democracy and pressure to go further.
The 330,000 immigration number that came out during the campaign was absolute dynamite to his whole schtick.
I think Romania joining the EU and being given full access to free movement was the difference between a narrow leave win and a narrow remain win. Without Romanian immigration, that 330k net migration figure would have been more like 200k and falling, allowing the government to paint a picture of falling net migration, something they were bringing under control even within the EU structures. Add to that the general positive attitude that most Brits have towards Polish people and I think remain would have scored a victory.0 -
Only if you cut out the rest of the sentence which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. That's dishonest as I just demonstrated by taking TOPPING's words out of context to reverse their meaning.DecrepitJohnL said:
You keep saying that Gove was misquoted but have you actually read your link? It confirms Gove did say: I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove0 -
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:0 -
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:0 -
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
I think the optics of it are the other way around. If he’d rebelled on the vote and resigned or been sacked, his name would be lost in the coverage of the votes themselves. By stepping down in the morning his resignation is now leading the news.Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:0 -
So what was Davis' full sovereignty quote?Philip_Thompson said:
Only if you cut out the rest of the sentence which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. That's dishonest as I just demonstrated by taking TOPPING's words out of context to reverse their meaning.DecrepitJohnL said:
You keep saying that Gove was misquoted but have you actually read your link? It confirms Gove did say: I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove0 -
Imagine what social media would have been like, had it existed in the 70's or 80's.Andy_Cooke said:Anyway, the discussion has once more degenerated into out-group signalling and insults from all sides, so probably not worth continuing until at least the next thread.
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Gove was interrupted but he did say it and the rest of the sentence does not materially alter its meaning. The interview is on Youtube.Philip_Thompson said:
Only if you cut out the rest of the sentence which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. That's dishonest as I just demonstrated by taking TOPPING's words out of context to reverse their meaning.DecrepitJohnL said:
You keep saying that Gove was misquoted but have you actually read your link? It confirms Gove did say: I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA0 -
Mr. Cooke, that's true.
Mr. Max, interesting view on the PS5. I had heard it was coming soon, but maybe in 20 or 21. I'll hold off on buying, even if the money's there, after the bullshit they pulled with the PS4 Pro.
The Last of Us II looks intriguing.
Mr. L, interrupting someone halfway through a message and then presenting their truncated remark as a full quote is as silly as claiming Caesar made his wife sit on the roof after saying: "Caesar's wife must be above".
Mr. B, true. There does seem a willingness from the noisier Remainers to attribute losing to every kind of unfairness and cheating, though, rather than accept it as a democratic decision or even that the EU just isn't well-liked here. They're keener to accept Russian interference, evil use of data, widespread racism etc etc.
Edited extra bit: Mr. L, 'experts' who are consistently wrong (such as on the single currency) should not have their opinions treated as gospel truth or privileged and insightful.0 -
Another remainer blinded by dogmatism who can't agree to compromise and ignores the voters in his own constituency.
If he had any integrity he would step down as MP for Bracknell.
He's finished anyway.0 -
The xenophobes aren't working class. They're middle class 'Mail readers' who don't like foreigners and who want a return to the days of the Empire. They're millions of Paul Dacres and of a similar age. It's a rebellion by the old and therefore the less educated. If Cameron could have persuaded his EU counterparts to agree to hanging and flogging he'd almost certainly have got over the lineFenster said:
Elections are won by winning over the undecided voters in the middle. Do you honestly think that Aaron Banks and Farage swung the vote by convincing a couple of million centrist voters to vote Leave by tapping into their latent xenophobia?AlastairMeeks said:
The Leave campaign fell in behind xenophobic lies. That is the nature of the victory that has to be delivered. Look at the front pages of the newspapers this morning. Leave enabled that. This is the country that Leave campaigners have produced. Until enough Leave campaigners realise that there are more important things for the body politic than whether or not Britain is in the EU, questions of a customs union or the single market are entirely moot.DavidL said:
Leave won because we really don't like the EU very much. they were just scared of the consequences. That is what we need to address. We need to leave. Everything else is up for reasonable discussion but bad losers really don't advance the argument. Make the case for a CU. Make the case for membership of the SM. Engage. Don't sit there in the huff accusing people of being xenophobes because they disagreed with you.AlastairMeeks said:
That's why Leave has been so unpersuasive to date - many Remain supporters cannot countenance getting anywhere near that campaign. That's why Leave has floundered in setting a positive agenda or in identifying a future course of action for the country that the EU will work with - all it had were xenophobic lies to secure victory. That's why national newspapers two years on are putting fascist tropes on their front pages to bully MPs into a highly tendentious view of what the referendum vote required.
Until Leavers come to terms with the basis of their own victory, the country will continue in its divided state, on a downward spiral.
It seems that Remain supporters are more clear-eyed about the consequences of this than Leave supporters, who are so exultant about having recaptured their precious that they have failed to notice that they sold their souls to do so.
If anything would've put me off voting Leave it would've been Aaron Banks. The man is a fucking tosser. Dominic Cummings showed his street-smarts by avoiding him like the plague.
By the way, your sneering hatred of British voters definitely outweighs the hatred Britain's rampaging working class xenophobes have for all those foreigners we live next door to.0 -
The evidence of Russian interference is clearMorris_Dancer said:There does seem a willingness from the noisier Remainers to attribute losing to every kind of unfairness and cheating, though, rather than accept it as a democratic decision or even that the EU just isn't well-liked here. They're keener to accept Russian interference, evil use of data, widespread racism etc etc.
Why are leavers so determined to ignore it?
Are they scared acknowledging it would undermine the win?0 -
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
Who changed their voting intention because of Russians ?Scott_P said:
The evidence of Russian interference is clearMorris_Dancer said:There does seem a willingness from the noisier Remainers to attribute losing to every kind of unfairness and cheating, though, rather than accept it as a democratic decision or even that the EU just isn't well-liked here. They're keener to accept Russian interference, evil use of data, widespread racism etc etc.
Can you name anyone ?0 -
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Seeing as I was still too young to go to school, no.TheScreamingEagles said:
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
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Mr. P, any credible claims of foreign interference should be taken seriously and investigated by the appropriate authorities. It's a matter of importance, so no suggestion of foreigners trying to alter our democratic process should be at the back of the queue.0
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But if you don’t want to appear to be a hypocrite you’ll agree not expelling the Maastricht rebels creates a precedent for not expelling Philip Lee.RoyalBlue said:
Seeing as I was 3 at the time, no.TheScreamingEagles said:
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
Plus, politicians are or should be aware of the takeaways from what they say. From now is not the time for experts, to Davis' we always were sovereign, ever since May's nasty party, and Fatch's no such thing as society, etc...DecrepitJohnL said:
Gove was interrupted but he did say it and the rest of the sentence does not materially alter its meaning. The interview is on Youtube.Philip_Thompson said:
Only if you cut out the rest of the sentence which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. That's dishonest as I just demonstrated by taking TOPPING's words out of context to reverse their meaning.DecrepitJohnL said:
You keep saying that Gove was misquoted but have you actually read your link? It confirms Gove did say: I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA
They know and have been trained on how the media works and how a particular soundbite will play out and are perfectly aware of what that takeaway will be and what will become the narrative, no matter the context of the other words in the sentence.0 -
The question puzzles me.
Why does it matter that Brexit is going badly, assuming that it is (which itself is a tendentious assumption) ? We didn't vote for any particular kind of Brexit. We voted for Brexit whatever. And Brexit Whatever is what we will get.
What's to complain about?0 -
I don’t agree at all. We never had a referendum to approve the Maastricht Treaty. If we had, it might have been rejected. It only passed in France thanks to the votes of the dom-toms.TheScreamingEagles said:
But if you don’t want to appear to be a hypocrite you’ll agree not expelling the Maastricht rebels creates a precedent for not expelling Philip Lee.RoyalBlue said:
Seeing as I was 3 at the time, no.TheScreamingEagles said:
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.
0 -
I agree Dr Lee shouldn't be expelled at this stage but I'm sure his association in Bracknell will be taking a very close look at his conduct (given the Bracknell Parliamentary Constituency itself voted to leave and he was subsequently elected on a manifesto commitment to leave the EU, SM and CU...)TheScreamingEagles said:
But if you don’t want to appear to be a hypocrite you’ll agree not expelling the Maastricht rebels creates a precedent for not expelling Philip Lee.RoyalBlue said:
Seeing as I was 3 at the time, no.TheScreamingEagles said:
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
On that basis, John Redwood should be deselected. Wokingham voted Remain.TGOHF said:Another remainer blinded by dogmatism who can't agree to compromise and ignores the voters in his own constituency.
If he had any integrity he would step down as MP for Bracknell.
He's finished anyway.
In fact, MPs are representatives not delegates.0 -
Shout it loud.Peter_the_Punter said:The question puzzles me.
Why does it matter that Brexit is going badly, assuming that it is (which itself is a tendentious assumption.) We didn't vote for any particular kind of Brexit. We voted for Brexit whatever. And Brexit Whatever is what we will get.
What's to complain about?0 -
I believe Redwood will be voting with the PM later.rural_voter said:
On that basis, John Redwood should be deselected. Wokingham voted Remain.TGOHF said:Another remainer blinded by dogmatism who can't agree to compromise and ignores the voters in his own constituency.
If he had any integrity he would step down as MP for Bracknell.
He's finished anyway.
In fact, MPs are representatives not delegates.
0 -
Not really because he was then elected on a manifesto commitment to leave the EU (and SM and CU)rural_voter said:
On that basis, John Redwood should be deselected. Wokingham voted Remain.TGOHF said:Another remainer blinded by dogmatism who can't agree to compromise and ignores the voters in his own constituency.
If he had any integrity he would step down as MP for Bracknell.
He's finished anyway.
0 -
We voted for unicorns. We want our unicorns...Peter_the_Punter said:The question puzzles me.
Why does it matter that Brexit is going badly, assuming that it is (which itself is a tendentious assumption) ? We didn't vote for any particular kind of Brexit. We voted for Brexit whatever. And Brexit Whatever is what we will get.
What's to complain about?0 -
That is correct.rural_voter said:
On that basis, John Redwood should be deselected. Wokingham voted Remain.TGOHF said:Another remainer blinded by dogmatism who can't agree to compromise and ignores the voters in his own constituency.
If he had any integrity he would step down as MP for Bracknell.
He's finished anyway.
In fact, MPs are representatives not delegates.
In the matter of Brexit, they did however choose to behave as if they were delegates. I am not sure why they did that, and personally i think it was a shirking of responsibilities, but that is what they did and there is no way back from it now.0 -
We had a manifesto commitment to ratify the Maastricht treaty.RoyalBlue said:
I don’t agree at all. We never had a referendum to approve the Maastricht Treaty. If we had, it might have been rejected. It only passed in France thanks to the votes of the dom-toms.TheScreamingEagles said:
But if you don’t want to appear to be a hypocrite you’ll agree not expelling the Maastricht rebels creates a precedent for not expelling Philip Lee.RoyalBlue said:
Seeing as I was 3 at the time, no.TheScreamingEagles said:
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
#rememberrinka #milksnatcher #whorunsthecountry #notyouSean_F said:
Imagine what social media would have been like, had it existed in the 70's or 80's.Andy_Cooke said:Anyway, the discussion has once more degenerated into out-group signalling and insults from all sides, so probably not worth continuing until at least the next thread.
0 -
Well that's OK, Scott. The Government then simply passes the Unicorns For Everyone Act and it has done its job. When Unicorns fail to appear as a consequence, the Government simply points out that is because unicorns do not exist, but that is hardly the Government's fault. It has done the will of the people. It can do no more.Scott_P said:
We voted for unicorns. We want our unicorns...Peter_the_Punter said:The question puzzles me.
Why does it matter that Brexit is going badly, assuming that it is (which itself is a tendentious assumption) ? We didn't vote for any particular kind of Brexit. We voted for Brexit whatever. And Brexit Whatever is what we will get.
What's to complain about?
Democracy, innit?
All well with you, btw? Horses running OK?0 -
#freegeorgedavis #ineverypacketDura_Ace said:
#rememberrinka #milksnatcher #whorunsthecountry #notyouSean_F said:
Imagine what social media would have been like, had it existed in the 70's or 80's.Andy_Cooke said:Anyway, the discussion has once more degenerated into out-group signalling and insults from all sides, so probably not worth continuing until at least the next thread.
0 -
Who on earth is Nick Boles talking about here about threatening to resign but never resigning?
https://twitter.com/nickboles/status/1006468141566881792?s=210 -
I thought the cyberpunk game looked interesting. The EA conference was shockingly bad and uninspiring is too kind a word. Interesting to see Microsoft buying up some pretty biggest studios.MaxPB said:In gaming news, E3 is almost over and it looks to me as if Sony are gearing up for a PS5 in November of 2019. Not a single game shown last night was scheduled to release after that date and 10 out of their 16 studios are silently working on something unknown and with no date attached. Bring on the good times!
The new CD Projekt Red game looks decidedly uninspiring, which is a shame after TW3 was so amazing. I think they will struggle to fill out an almost original concept world. With TW most of the work was done for them by the writer, with this the original writer already seems disappointed.0 -
I haven't had a serious bet on the horses since CheltenhamPeter_the_Punter said:All well with you, btw? Horses running OK?
0 -
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When parliament puts a question to the public, it is essentially saying that it doesn't have the authority to make the decision by itself and it needs to be resolved by the people themselves. Of course, for practical purposes, it might also be for lesser political reasons but it is now probably a convention (at the very least, an expectation), that referendums are the accepted method of resolving first-order political questions, of which membership of the EU is one.Peter_the_Punter said:
That is correct.rural_voter said:
On that basis, John Redwood should be deselected. Wokingham voted Remain.TGOHF said:Another remainer blinded by dogmatism who can't agree to compromise and ignores the voters in his own constituency.
If he had any integrity he would step down as MP for Bracknell.
He's finished anyway.
In fact, MPs are representatives not delegates.
In the matter of Brexit, they did however choose to behave as if they were delegates. I am not sure why they did that, and personally i think it was a shirking of responsibilities, but that is what they did and there is no way back from it now.
Consequently, having referred a question to the people, the cannot act as representatives on that question because it's already been resolved and the debate had outside of parliament. MPs roles then become closer to that of an executive, in determining how to implement the decision.0 -
Did the Maastricht rebels make clear their opposition to the party stance before the election? That is a genuine question.TheScreamingEagles said:
We had a manifesto commitment to ratify the Maastricht treaty.RoyalBlue said:
I don’t agree at all. We never had a referendum to approve the Maastricht Treaty. If we had, it might have been rejected. It only passed in France thanks to the votes of the dom-toms.TheScreamingEagles said:
But if you don’t want to appear to be a hypocrite you’ll agree not expelling the Maastricht rebels creates a precedent for not expelling Philip Lee.RoyalBlue said:
Seeing as I was 3 at the time, no.TheScreamingEagles said:
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
Everyone knows that I was ardently pro-EU till I saw an ad on Facebook.TGOHF said:
Who changed their voting intention because of Russians ?Scott_P said:
The evidence of Russian interference is clearMorris_Dancer said:There does seem a willingness from the noisier Remainers to attribute losing to every kind of unfairness and cheating, though, rather than accept it as a democratic decision or even that the EU just isn't well-liked here. They're keener to accept Russian interference, evil use of data, widespread racism etc etc.
Can you name anyone ?0 -
Personally I don't know what the like's of Dr Lee are worrying about... Its perfectly obvious Theresa is going to keep us tied up as a vassal state of the EU for years and years and years and so we'll never really leave the EU.
All people like Dr Lee are doing is raising the tensions and risking the implosion of Theresa May... For Remainers Theresa May is the gift that keeps on giving... From their point of view its madness to do anything to that puts her position at risk.0 -
@TheScreamingEagles - where in the 2017 manifesto was the commitment to take away the executive’s ability to conduct foreign policy?0
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Absolutely, David.david_herdson said:
When parliament puts a question to the public, it is essentially saying that it doesn't have the authority to make the decision by itself and it needs to be resolved by the people themselves. Of course, for practical purposes, it might also be for lesser political reasons but it is now probably a convention (at the very least, an expectation), that referendums are the accepted method of resolving first-order political questions, of which membership of the EU is one.Peter_the_Punter said:
That is correct.rural_voter said:
On that basis, John Redwood should be deselected. Wokingham voted Remain.TGOHF said:Another remainer blinded by dogmatism who can't agree to compromise and ignores the voters in his own constituency.
If he had any integrity he would step down as MP for Bracknell.
He's finished anyway.
In fact, MPs are representatives not delegates.
In the matter of Brexit, they did however choose to behave as if they were delegates. I am not sure why they did that, and personally i think it was a shirking of responsibilities, but that is what they did and there is no way back from it now.
Consequently, having referred a question to the people, the cannot act as representatives on that question because it's already been resolved and the debate had outside of parliament. MPs roles then become closer to that of an executive, in determining how to implement the decision.
Or to put it another way, 'Ask a silly question......'0 -
No.Elliot said:
Did the Maastricht rebels make clear their opposition to the party stance before the election? That is a genuine question.TheScreamingEagles said:
We had a manifesto commitment to ratify the Maastricht treaty.RoyalBlue said:
I don’t agree at all. We never had a referendum to approve the Maastricht Treaty. If we had, it might have been rejected. It only passed in France thanks to the votes of the dom-toms.TheScreamingEagles said:
But if you don’t want to appear to be a hypocrite you’ll agree not expelling the Maastricht rebels creates a precedent for not expelling Philip Lee.RoyalBlue said:
Seeing as I was 3 at the time, no.TheScreamingEagles said:
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
It wasn't just numbers. Many working class people disliked the scale of Polish immigration, which undercut their wage bargaining position in the market, but they grudgingly appreciated them as hard working people that largely played by societal rules. The problem with Romanian immigration is that a sizable minority of them were visibly involved in begging, squatting and low level crime.MaxPB said:
I think the most damaging thing about the migration stats was that finally, finally migration from the A8 countries had slowed down but almost immediately the accession controls came off Romania and sent the net migration figures to record levels as loads of unskilled Romanians turned up at Heathrow looking for work.Pulpstar said:
David Cameron's musings, policy, words and action on immigration were the biggest driver of all.Andy_Cooke said:
Absolutely.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, you accidentally misquoted Gove again (see the link, under 'misquotes'):
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove
A serious problem Remain had was that for decades politicians had tried triangulating the EU, lacking the intelligence/courage to either be properly sceptical or actually make the case for the EU. There were often sceptic sounds accompanied by sell-out actions (cf Lisbon and the referendum-that-never-was). But you can't triangulate in a binary choice referendum. There's no soft and fuzzy middle way. It's in, or out.
They also used it as a boogeyman to give a fig-leaf to their own decisions: "No, we have to do this because of the EU" when they were at best gold-plating to excess and at worst being directly dishonest.
Then, to their profound surprise, they find out people actually believed them in the past.
The EU didn't help matters by actually doing a bunch of things that were at least similar enough to the sort of things the politicians ascribed to them, increasing the credibility of the politicians' slopey-shoulderedness, and having a constant tin ear to complaints about democracy and pressure to go further.
The 330,000 immigration number that came out during the campaign was absolute dynamite to his whole schtick.
I think Romania joining the EU and being given full access to free movement was the difference between a narrow leave win and a narrow remain win. Without Romanian immigration, that 330k net migration figure would have been more like 200k and falling, allowing the government to paint a picture of falling net migration, something they were bringing under control even within the EU structures. Add to that the general positive attitude that most Brits have towards Polish people and I think remain would have scored a victory.0 -
The bit about make Parliament even more sovereign?RoyalBlue said:@TheScreamingEagles - where in the 2017 manifesto was the commitment to take away the executive’s ability to conduct foreign policy?
0 -
The national party should not be expelling MPs for voting with their principles. They should however answer to their local constituency parties.TheScreamingEagles said:
But if you don’t want to appear to be a hypocrite you’ll agree not expelling the Maastricht rebels creates a precedent for not expelling Philip Lee.RoyalBlue said:
Seeing as I was 3 at the time, no.TheScreamingEagles said:
Did you ever call for the expulsion of the Maastricht rebels?RoyalBlue said:
He’s calling for a second referendum, for goodness’ sake!Philip_Thompson said:
Standard fare is to either resign on the day of the vote - or to not resign, rebel and be sacked. At least he resigned the morning of the vote and not by walking through the wrong division without declaring he would.RoyalBlue said:
How does it show honesty and integrity to resign on the day of the vote, when your colleagues would have been counting on your support until that point?Scott_P said:
He should be expelled from the party. If he has any honour he’ll resign his seat, as he clearly has no loyalty to the manifesto on which he won it.0 -
Royal Ascot next week!Scott_P said:
I haven't had a serious bet on the horses since CheltenhamPeter_the_Punter said:All well with you, btw? Horses running OK?
0 -
Thank you to all who welcomed me. I despise guilt by association whoever does it. It smacks of 'your father was a kulak so you must be one too' style of politics. Yuk.
Yes a fan of Asimov - though not the Second Foundation (Bastards.)
For the record I:
Dont mind pineapple on pizza, i'll eat it but prefer most other alternatives.
Fairly meh on Radiohead
Voted Tory last election
Liked the Tube scene in 'Darkest Hour.'
Voted (and campaigned for) Leave as I was living in the UK then. Now an expat living and working in Sri Lanka (so looking forward(?) to England's tour here in October/November.0 -
Banks is giving evidence now to the select committee. You can watch here. They'll come to Russia soon.
He lodged an appeal against the Electoral Commission's decision this morning, which has meant that some matters will be treated as sub judice.
Like the insurance salesman that he is, Banks has some charisma. I haven't watched Cummings, but to judge by the attitude he displays in what he writes he has no charisma whatsoever and may even be hellbent on self-destruction.0 -
For me it was the bus.Sean_F said:
Everyone knows that I was ardently pro-EU till I saw an ad on Facebook.TGOHF said:
Who changed their voting intention because of Russians ?Scott_P said:
The evidence of Russian interference is clearMorris_Dancer said:There does seem a willingness from the noisier Remainers to attribute losing to every kind of unfairness and cheating, though, rather than accept it as a democratic decision or even that the EU just isn't well-liked here. They're keener to accept Russian interference, evil use of data, widespread racism etc etc.
Can you name anyone ?0 -
I don't thinking should be done on an ad hoc basis just because some people ppose the Government line on Brexit but I do think that there should be legislation introduced to strip away most of the remaining Royal Prerogative on foreign affairs.RoyalBlue said:@TheScreamingEagles - where in the 2017 manifesto was the commitment to take away the executive’s ability to conduct foreign policy?
The same applies to Lords reform.0 -
Banks has accused the entire committee of being Remainers and says they have got a "vested interest".Purple said:Banks is giving evidence now to the select committee. You can watch here. They'll come to Russia soon.
He lodged an appeal against the Electoral Commission's decision this morning, which has meant that some matters will be treated as sub judice.
Like the insurance salesman that he is, Banks has some charisma. I haven't watched Cummings, but to judge by the attitude he displays in what he writes he has no charisma whatsoever and may even be hellbent on self-destruction.
He says the guy leading the Remain campaign is working for Putin and has denounced "double standards".
I have to say that at the moment he is being given a very smooth ride.
He's now taking the piss: "Are you the MP who got drunk?"0 -
Banks has got one hell of an ego on him and wouldn't get away with this kind of answering in court.0
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Mr. Mule, that's all well and good, but do you think Hannibal Barca or Julius Caesar was the superior general?0
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The author of the opening article is spinning (again!) the poll to make it look as if 70% of Britons are unhappy with Brexit itself.
In fact what they are unhappy with is how long the process is all taking, the failure of the government to stand up to the mafiosi in Brussels, EU obstructionism, and all the bickering and talk. They just want us to hurry up and get out.
"You can't negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mouth" (attributed to Churchill).0 -
Just seen the news about Dr Phillip Lee.
What is this we see, a politician putting country before party and resigning on a matter of principle?
Maybe the world isn't so bad after all.
Congratulations to him.0 -
Sri Lanka look to be at a low ebb, judging by their performance against the West Indies.The_Mule_ said:Thank you to all who welcomed me.
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Voted (and campaigned for) Leave as I was living in the UK then. Now an expat living and working in Sri Lanka (so looking forward(?) to England's tour here in October/November.
An England touring party is just the boost they need.0 -
Hannibal Barca lost the war and his country so Julius Caesar. Though Scipio Africanus betters them both IMHO.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Mule, that's all well and good, but do you think Hannibal Barca or Julius Caesar was the superior general?
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Pulpstar said:
Lee says he wants to potentially revoke article 50, but that he is in favour of leaving. I'm confused, I must say.
His resignation statement makes his position clear. He thinks that there isn't enough time in the Article 50 schedule to allow for a sensible deal that suits both the EU27 and the UK.
He is absolutely right about that, of course.0