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Welcome back. You and your considered sagacity have been missed.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Been on holiday but following post to yours. And yes she is utterly uninspiring and must be under threat but as I said, more from me next weekDura_Ace said:Where's Big G to call a PMQ victory for May?
You haven't missed much. Brexit continues to be l'ascenseur pour l'échafaud. Somebody, somewhere apparently thinks Justine Greening can be Mayor of London. We had online symposium on the logistics of transnational car manufacturing in which quite a few people chatted shit.0 -
As the Italians are demonstrating, the EU finds it much easier dealing with those on the outside of the tent trying to piss in than dealing with those on the inside of the tent also trying to piss in.Fenster said:
All she needs to do is what the Italians are gonna spend the next few years doing. Ignore them, flout their rules and basically laugh at their demands. The EU only has as much power as we allow it to have. The French ignore them too.HYUFD said:
Maybe but no PM is going to find it easy getting any sort of deal with Juncker and BarnierFenster said:
I don't disagree. But May's discomfort is written all over her face and as a leader she needs to be better at concealing.HYUFD said:
It was Cameron's failure to deal with the complications of getting a deal with the EU which cost Remain the referendum and ended his premiershipFenster said:Politics is a tormentingly complicated business and one of May's failures as a leader is to allow all those complications to show on her face/in her words.
Cameron, by contrast, was the consummate swan. He hardly ever allowed the complications to show.
The Italians have chosen a very good moment to misbehave.0 -
If only we'd listened to George:
Britain should only trigger Article 50 to leave the EU when it has a “clear view” of how its future in the bloc looks, finance minister George Osborne said Monday following last week’s shock referendum.
[...]
“The prime minister has given us time as a country to decide what that relationship should be by delaying the decision to trigger the Article 50 procedure until there is a new prime minister in place for the autumn,” Osborne said in his first public comments since the result.
“Only the UK can trigger Article 50, and in my judgement we should only do that when there is a clear view about what new arrangement we are seeking with our European neighbours,” he added.
“In the meantime, and during the negotiations that will follow, there will be no change to people’s rights to travel and work, and to the way our goods and services are traded, or to the way our economy and financial system is regulated.”
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1131059/uk-trigger-article-50-leave-eu-ready/0 -
They voted to end free movement and regain sovereignty much as that may annoy Remainers who believe only BINO is acceptableSouthamObserver said:
They did not vote for it to be triggered precipitously before the government had the first clue about what leaving actually entailed or how it might be done without inflicting substantial harm.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
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True,but that PMq performance by May on Brexit against Corbyn, you could see her authority draining away.It was a pityful.HYUFD said:
Yes I am so embarrassed the Tories still lead Labour even with Survation and May still leads Corbyn as best PM in every poll.bigjohnowls said:Jezza murders May again at PMQs on BREXIT
TM must be a severe source of embarrassment for PB Tories.
When will she be put out of her misery?
Only a few political anoraks watch PMQs anyway and a bad day one week can be rectified by a good day the next week0 -
Cry me a river. Each side is negotiating for its own benefit.HYUFD said:
Maybe but no PM is going to find it easy getting any sort of deal with Juncker and BarnierFenster said:
I don't disagree. But May's discomfort is written all over her face and as a leader she needs to be better at concealing.HYUFD said:
It was Cameron's failure to deal with the complications of getting a deal with the EU which cost Remain the referendum and ended his premiershipFenster said:Politics is a tormentingly complicated business and one of May's failures as a leader is to allow all those complications to show on her face/in her words.
Cameron, by contrast, was the consummate swan. He hardly ever allowed the complications to show.0 -
And the Germans run the showFenster said:
All she needs to do is what the Italians are gonna spend the next few years doing. Ignore them, flout their rules and basically laugh at their demands. The EU only has as much power as we allow it to have. The French ignore them too.HYUFD said:
Maybe but no PM is going to find it easy getting any sort of deal with Juncker and BarnierFenster said:
I don't disagree. But May's discomfort is written all over her face and as a leader she needs to be better at concealing.HYUFD said:
It was Cameron's failure to deal with the complications of getting a deal with the EU which cost Remain the referendum and ended his premiershipFenster said:Politics is a tormentingly complicated business and one of May's failures as a leader is to allow all those complications to show on her face/in her words.
Cameron, by contrast, was the consummate swan. He hardly ever allowed the complications to show.0 -
The answer to that may well evolve over the next two weeks, certainly by the end of Junebigjohnowls said:Jezza murders May again at PMQs on BREXIT
TM must be a severe source of embarrassment for PB Tories.
When will she be put out of her misery?0 -
He doesn’t believe in any of those.Sean_F said:
Better than democracy, or the abolition of slavery, or capitalism?Charles said:
++Justin can be silly sometimesHYUFD said:Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, comes out as a Remainer 'the EU has been the greatest thing for human beings since the Western Roman Empire'
https://mobile.twitter.com/wareisjoe/status/1003984057787699202
Once an oily always an oily0 -
If she wins the vote next week she will be fine, if she loses she may be gone but with Umunna and Leslie and Hoey and Field on different sides and Corbyn in the middle he has little authority on Brexit eitherYorkcity said:
True,but that PMq performance by May on Brexit against Corbyn, you could see her authority draining away.It was a pityful.HYUFD said:
Yes I am so embarrassed the Tories still lead Labour even with Survation and May still leads Corbyn as best PM in every poll.bigjohnowls said:Jezza murders May again at PMQs on BREXIT
TM must be a severe source of embarrassment for PB Tories.
When will she be put out of her misery?
Only a few political anoraks watch PMQs anyway and a bad day one week can be rectified by a good day the next week0 -
Just had a phone call from the telegraph offering a subscription at a £1 a week for a year0
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Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.0 -
Split the U.K. into 12 independent states, give them 600 years to develop their own capitals and then reunite them under the most militaristic culture?FrancisUrquhart said:The UK has had this huge problem in which overwhelmingly major business is London-centric / SE for decades. It isn't true in places like Germany, where a number of different cities have different major industries.
Gordo attempts at redistribution of public sector jobs to the regions, with on eye on stimulating the economy hasn't done much (other than drive up property prices in places like Bristol), and even though London is now bursting at the seams with lack of housing, business and people all still want to locate there.
The vast majority of undergraduates I have talked to at the big unis measure success as a graduate job in London.
Answers to the problem on the back of a postcode to ....0 -
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.0 -
If policy was driven by ERG we would go straight to WTO terms with no regulatory alignment or transition periodanothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.0 -
Didnt see PMQs, but it is beginning to look like losing Rudd from the cabinet might have changed No. 10 Brexit strategy.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
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Thanks. I've been looking for something like this.eek said:Any posted this yet https://www.citymetric.com/transport/so-why-northern-rail-chaos-here-are-11-reasons-3952
Why the Northern Rail disaster was inevitable...
I'm not sure how bad it has got further into Yorkshire where the changes are a bit less radical, but of the things highlighted in the article it seems to me that the immediate crisis is down to:
1. Bolton electrification line closure (which was known to be ongoing)
2. Through capacity in Manchester, as said, requires that trains do not terminate at Victoria, but the main Northern through routes are heavily focused on the general direction of Wigan and Bolton. Or mainly just Wigan with Bolton out of action.
3. The old, long distance unreliable Northern trains serving Cumbria, which are in free fall, are also going through this corridor.
4. These and other services along the Bolton / Wigan direction are also heavy users of the very congested through routes into Piccadilly (and the airport)
5. I hadn't realised the Northern work to rule - the generally immediate quoted reason for most cancellations is a lack of train crew (takes the edge off my happiness when there is a Northern strike day and the Transpennines run so much better)
6. More Manchester through movements due to Transpennine routing across the Ordeal Curve (I agree it's a curse) that now make 2 through passes of Manchester to get from WY to the airport (they used to reverse at Piccadilly and probably should do again for the time being, as the lesser evil).
Ironically, the closure of Liverpool Lime Street for upgrade work might ease problems for a couple of weeks, but come the end of June there could be another wave of trouble when Lime Street reopens.
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I'd recommend sticking with Andrex.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just had a phone call from the telegraph offering a subscription at a £1 a week for a year
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As HYUFD continuously points out, Leavers voted Leave because of immigration. Apart from one R. Tyndall that is.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
Yet both make sweeping generalisations about their fellow travellers.0 -
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.0 -
I think she's always been crap. I can't cope with indecisive people. She's indecision central.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
At least you know what Corbyn stands for. And he doesn't seem to give the tiniest fuck what people think. Even on something krypton-toxic like anti-semitism, he wasn't willing to spin any love for the Jews.0 -
Do you enter this subscription via the Telegraph's site or give your payment details over the phone? Even if genuine, these calls soften people up for fraudsters.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just had a phone call from the telegraph offering a subscription at a £1 a week for a year
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Carneys rate moveTOPPING said:
Not doom, just a diminution in our wellbeing.another_richard said:
LOLTOPPING said:
Luckily enough Mark Carney acted to stave off a recession, Theresa May bribed the car companies, and those with GBP assets and non-GBP liabilities found there was a crash. Refugee camps? I think they may yet end up being at Larne. As for the crops, https://ft.com/content/0e0a77f2-96df-11e7-b83c-9588e51488a0another_richard said:
Listening to what ?rottenborough said:
Reads like a list of the number of occasions Leavers have had to put their fingers in their ears and shout "I'm not listening, I'm not listening".another_richard said:
And in actual reality there were six different types of British strawberry and two different types of British raspberry on sale at Tesco yesterday.another_richard said:rottenborough said:
Project Fear enters the Project Reality stage.Scott_P said:
Jun 2018 - "Project Fear enters the Project Reality stage"
Predictions that there would be an immediate recession, the car factories would shut down, the City would relocate to Frankfurt, the stock market would crash, refugee camps at Dover and the crops rotting in the fields ?
Why don't Remainers ever provide any DATA to back up their claims instead of merely pasting from twatter.
Is that really the best response you can make ? Really ?
And you wonder why nobody believes these predictions of doom any more ?
And which bit do you have a problem with? Carney's rate move, May's bribe, GBP's fall, or the farmer featured in the FT?
In your last answer (a few days ago) you didn’t understand the difference between liquidity provision (good) and loosening monetary policy (unnecessary, risky, and wasteful)0 -
The poorest areas aren't exactly paying a lot of tax as it is anyway.Benpointer said:
... and there'll be even less money to pay for it.Xenon said:instead of (or as well as) a massive infrastructure spending spree in the North, how about cutting taxes for poorer areas. A few taxes that could be reduced:
Employers/employees national insurance contributions
Business rates
PAYE rates (maybe another £5k tax free threshold)
Council tax
Get people and businesses wanting to move up North and the case for better infrastructure becomes a lot stronger.0 -
I'm glad I got on Dem control of the House when I did but I'm not touching the Senate market with a barge poll either way,Pulpstar said:
I think GOP control for the senate is probably now a lay at 1.39.Pulpstar said:Democrat 25 pt flip in SD17 in Missouri for anyone betting on the US elections btw.
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I understood it perfectly well Charles and made an analogy. Perhaps you don't understand what they are.Charles said:
Carneys rate moveTOPPING said:
Not doom, just a diminution in our wellbeing.another_richard said:
LOLTOPPING said:
Luckily enough Mark Carney acted to stave off a recession, Theresa May bribed the car companies, and those with GBP assets and non-GBP liabilities found there was a crash. Refugee camps? I think they may yet end up being at Larne. As for the crops, https://ft.com/content/0e0a77f2-96df-11e7-b83c-9588e51488a0another_richard said:
Listening to what ?rottenborough said:
Reads like a list of the number of occasions Leavers have had to put their fingers in their ears and shout "I'm not listening, I'm not listening".another_richard said:
And in actual reality there were six different types of British strawberry and two different types of British raspberry on sale at Tesco yesterday.another_richard said:rottenborough said:
Project Fear enters the Project Reality stage.Scott_P said:
Jun 2018 - "Project Fear enters the Project Reality stage"
Predictions that there would be an immediate recession, the car factories would shut down, the City would relocate to Frankfurt, the stock market would crash, refugee camps at Dover and the crops rotting in the fields ?
Why don't Remainers ever provide any DATA to back up their claims instead of merely pasting from twatter.
Is that really the best response you can make ? Really ?
And you wonder why nobody believes these predictions of doom any more ?
And which bit do you have a problem with? Carney's rate move, May's bribe, GBP's fall, or the farmer featured in the FT?
In your last answer (a few days ago) you didn’t understand the difference between liquidity provision (good) and loosening monetary policy (unnecessary, risky, and wasteful)
Carney taking steps to loosen monetary policy, or in this case push at a piece of string so I'd struggle to call it loosening monetary policy, to restart QE, and to create a package for the banks all sent a message ANALAGOUS to the Fed's 1987 message to banks, that the BoE would stand behind the financial system in the coming months.0 -
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.0 -
Sun Politics Oh dear Oh dear
"A year ago, she was strong and stable.
But more days like this and Tory MPs will once more be talking about shunting Mrs May into the sidings.
FINAL SCORE: Theresa May 1 – 5 Jeremy Corbyn"0 -
Most of the non-political leave voters of my acquaintance (mostly elderly and less educated) voted for more money for the NHS, fewer immigrants and an end to the imposition of EU laws on the UK. That was about as far as their analysis went.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.0 -
That Starmer ‘internal market’ amendment really is disengenuous. We either stay in the Single Market or we don’t.
I imagine that Umunna, Kinnock etc. are currently having a shouting match with Corbyn and/or Milne and/or Starmer about the opportunity being lost to embarrass the government with the EEA amendment.
I conclude that Corbyn has asked for this amendment to ensure that both it and the EEA amendment fail now, whilst keeping the opportunity to pivot to EEA at a future date.
Clever.0 -
BargainBig_G_NorthWales said:Just had a phone call from the telegraph offering a subscription at a £1 a week for a year
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Yes, but he "didn't let it show" which is why we have to read post after post of people on here claiming he was a great PM despite creating a massive crisis and then fucking off.HYUFD said:
It was Cameron's failure to deal with the complications of getting a deal with the EU which cost Remain the referendum and ended his premiershipFenster said:Politics is a tormentingly complicated business and one of May's failures as a leader is to allow all those complications to show on her face/in her words.
Cameron, by contrast, was the consummate swan. He hardly ever allowed the complications to show.0 -
It is all very well being easy going but when you have the biggest negotiation in decades you need to be hard headed and deal with the complexitiesAlistair said:
Yes, but he "didn't let it show" which is why we have to read post after post of people on here claiming he was a great PM despite creating a massive crisis and then fucking off.HYUFD said:
It was Cameron's failure to deal with the complications of getting a deal with the EU which cost Remain the referendum and ended his premiershipFenster said:Politics is a tormentingly complicated business and one of May's failures as a leader is to allow all those complications to show on her face/in her words.
Cameron, by contrast, was the consummate swan. He hardly ever allowed the complications to show.0 -
Finally! You accept that the government should govern for the British people, ie the whole country, and not just those who want an end to FoM. So why doesn't the government follow this very sensible analysis and come up with a plan which acknowledges that.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)0 -
It does not really matter what consensus in the country wants because the EU has said no cherry picking and have been perfectly clear on that.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
The only options on offer were
Stay 100%
Go to EEA (although Ireland would veto this)
Third country with a customs deal
Third country with an FTA deal
Third country.
These options should have been presented to the country and the vote given to parliament.
May has decided to try to do the impossible she wants the benefits of the single market with this bit and that bit and Corbyn is saying the same all the benefits of the single market but with these opt outs or opt-ins.
None of that has ever been on offer and never will be on offer. Who ever told here to try and execute this strategy is as much at fault as May.0 -
The problem for the UK is we havent pissed inside the tent since the handbagging daysAlastairMeeks said:
As the Italians are demonstrating, the EU finds it much easier dealing with those on the outside of the tent trying to piss in than dealing with those on the inside of the tent also trying to piss in.Fenster said:
All she needs to do is what the Italians are gonna spend the next few years doing. Ignore them, flout their rules and basically laugh at their demands. The EU only has as much power as we allow it to have. The French ignore them too.HYUFD said:
Maybe but no PM is going to find it easy getting any sort of deal with Juncker and BarnierFenster said:
I don't disagree. But May's discomfort is written all over her face and as a leader she needs to be better at concealing.HYUFD said:
It was Cameron's failure to deal with the complications of getting a deal with the EU which cost Remain the referendum and ended his premiershipFenster said:Politics is a tormentingly complicated business and one of May's failures as a leader is to allow all those complications to show on her face/in her words.
Cameron, by contrast, was the consummate swan. He hardly ever allowed the complications to show.
The Italians have chosen a very good moment to misbehave.
Major, Blair and Cameron all tried to be reasonable and it didn't work as some countries see being reasonable as weakness - see Blair Chriac and Schroder
I'm firmly of the view that if the UK establishment had been more bloody minded we'd still be in the EU as people want to feel the government is fighting the corner.
Instead we got fairy tales of "influence" which nobody believed.
sic transit Gloria Europae0 -
Is a DD flounce on the cards?
https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1004330527804059653?s=210 -
Theresa should press the doomsday button: announce that, such is the intractability of the negotiations, that she's putting Brexit on hold until a Royal Commission has investigated all the possibilities and their merits. In the meantime DD and Fox can be dispatched to back benches. That would wipe the smile off of Jezza's face!0
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https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1004323801964957696
"Tired and tetchy" - a very accurate description of May.
I suspect if we were to have a May vs Corbyn election tomorrow, we'd see the same as happened in 2017. The more people see of May, the less they like her; the more they see of Corbyn, the more they like him.
(And no, I wouldn't vote for either.)0 -
Funnily enough I see more potential for a fudge/concession from the EU than that. I have long held the view, informed by various folk close to the situation prior to the vote, that an EEA solution is untenable for the size of economy that the UK is. But that's not to say that there couldn't be the creation of a EUKEA with some tremendous amount of fudge contained therein.ralphmalph said:
It does not really matter what consensus in the country wants because the EU has said no cherry picking and have been perfectly clear on that.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and eHYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
The only options on offer were
Stay 100%
Go to EEA (although Ireland would veto this)
Third country with a customs deal
Third country with an FTA deal
Third country.
These options should have been presented to the country and the vote given to parliament.
May has decided to try to do the impossible she wants the benefits of the single market with this bit and that bit and Corbyn is saying the same all the benefits of the single market but with these opt outs or opt-ins.
None of that has ever been on offer and never will be on offer. Who ever told here to try and execute this strategy is as much at fault as May.0 -
No - in that respect HSE you said he cut interest rates to create liquidity. Which is just wrong.TOPPING said:
I understood it perfectly well Charles and made an analogy. Perhaps you don't understand what they are.Charles said:
Carneys rate moveTOPPING said:
Not doom, just a diminution in our wellbeing.another_richard said:
LOLTOPPING said:
Luckily enough Mark Carney acted to stave off a recession, Theresa May bribed the car companies, and those with GBP assets and non-GBP liabilities found there was a crash. Refugee camps? I think they may yet end up being at Larne. As for the crops, https://ft.com/content/0e0a77f2-96df-11e7-b83c-9588e51488a0another_richard said:
Listening to what ?rottenborough said:
Reads like a list of the number of occasions Leavers have had to put their fingers in their ears and shout "I'm not listening, I'm not listening".another_richard said:
And in actual reality there were six different types of British strawberry and two different types of British raspberry on sale at Tesco yesterday.another_richard said:rottenborough said:
Project Fear enters the Project Reality stage.Scott_P said:
Jun 2018 - "Project Fear enters the Project Reality stage"
Why don't Remainers ever provide any DATA to back up their claims instead of merely pasting from twatter.
Is that really the best response you can make ? Really ?
And you wonder why nobody believes these predictions of doom any more ?
And which bit do you have a problem with? Carney's rate move, May's bribe, GBP's fall, or the farmer featured in the FT?
In your last answer (a few days ago) you didn’t understand the difference between liquidity provision (good) and loosening monetary policy (unnecessary, risky, and wasteful)
Carney taking steps to loosen monetary policy, or in this case push at a piece of string so I'd struggle to call it loosening monetary policy, to restart QE, and to create a package for the banks all sent a message ANALAGOUS to the Fed's 1987 message to banks, that the BoE would stand behind the financial system in the coming months.
I had no issue with the liquidity backstop or the ability to restart QE (I’m not sure he actually spent anything). The rate cut and the slightly panicky messaging I do have difficulty with0 -
There is a bill going through the EU parliament at the moment which puts restrictions on import of stamps (invented 1840) and photographs (similar date of origin), amongst other items, more than 250 years old. Even the most limited definition of soverignty would involve not passing such a stupid law into domestic policy. The British government will have no such veto if in the EU. That is not being sovereign.TOPPING said:
Finally! You accept that the government should govern for the British people, ie the whole country, and not just those who want an end to FoM. So why doesn't the government follow this very sensible analysis and come up with a plan which acknowledges that.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)0 -
so they voted for their own interestsFeersumEnjineeya said:
Most of the non-political leave voters of my acquaintance (mostly elderly and less educated) voted for more money for the NHS, fewer immigrants and an end to the imposition of EU laws on the UK. That was about as far as their analysis went.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
why's that wrong ?0 -
No attempt to achieve a national consensus? We had manifestos setting out the approach (closest relationship outside CU/SM) and an election over it. That election produced a majority in parliament from two parties supporting that approach. By "national consensus" you just want to mean following the views of people like yourself who are implacably opposed to any form of Brexit.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
It's also worth pointing out the hypocrisy of the people arguing for this are the people that actively supported European integration over the last few treaties with not even the slightest attempt to have a vote over them, much less 'forge a national consensus'. You don't want a consensus, you want your views implemented regardless of electoral results.0 -
Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
0 -
I think that the cabinet sub committee and cabinet at large probably have the numbers to change the approach. Losing Rudd flipped it all...williamglenn said:Is a DD flounce on the cards?
https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1004330527804059653?s=210 -
Oh FFS. Would one of them just leave so we can start a new market on the next minister out of the Cabinet? I've lost track of this one.williamglenn said:Is a DD flounce on the cards?
https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1004330527804059653?s=210 -
Boy JohnO, Cameron really did screw things up !JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.0 -
I’m afraid you are 100% right on that.Alanbrooke said:
Boy JohnO, Cameron really did screw things up !JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.0 -
No I didn't Charles. I said the following:Charles said:No - in that respect HSE you said he cut interest rates to create liquidity. Which is just wrong.
I had no issue with the liquidity backstop or the ability to restart QE (I’m not sure he actually spent anything). The rate cut and the slightly panicky messaging I do have difficulty with
"He stood behind it because it was the right thing to do, as I mentioned earlier, echoing the Fed, which 30 years earlier:
"affirmed today its readiness to serve as a source of liquidity to support the economic and financial system""0 -
They voted for what they thought were their best interests. They didn't have any more than the vaguest conception that there might be any significant downsides to Brexit, and certainly nothing that might affect them personally. When things do go pear-shaped, they'll blame May's government for badly implementing Brexit, not themselves for making the wrong choice. This is why Corbyn will win the next election.Alanbrooke said:
so they voted for their own interestsFeersumEnjineeya said:
Most of the non-political leave voters of my acquaintance (mostly elderly and less educated) voted for more money for the NHS, fewer immigrants and an end to the imposition of EU laws on the UK. That was about as far as their analysis went.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
why's that wrong ?0 -
Yet the very same poll I quoted shows the majority of the British electorate want to end FOM so you cannot escape that requirement whether the Tories or Labour are in powerTOPPING said:
Finally! You accept that the government should govern for the British people, ie the whole country, and not just those who want an end to FoM. So why doesn't the government follow this very sensible analysis and come up with a plan which acknowledges that.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)0 -
Latest Betfair midprices for next Tory leader
Gove 7.1
Rees-Mogg 9
Javid 9.5
Johnson 14.5
Hunt 18.5
Gove, Rees-Mogg, Javid or Hunt (because it won't be Johnson) 2.43. A 143% return probably by next summer at the latest.0 -
The Leave campaign(s) couldn't agree before the vote, and the advocates on Leaving can't agree now.Stereotomy said:I think the other source of mess- at least on the political side- is that the referendum was not more specific about what we were voting for. It could have been designed so that the official Leave campaign would be responsible for producing a one-page statement of negotiating objectives, red lines, etc. at the beginning of the campaign
They reasoned (correctly) that any coherent, deliverable version of Leave would not have won the vote0 -
No, Brexiteers will stick with the Tories and diehard Remainers will go LD not Corbyn Labour in such a scenarioFeersumEnjineeya said:
They voted for what they thought were their best interests. They didn't have any more than the vaguest conception that there might be any significant downsides to Brexit, and certainly nothing that might affect them personally. When things do go pear-shaped, they'll blame May's government for badly implementing Brexit, not themselves for making the wrong choice. This is why Corbyn will win the next election.Alanbrooke said:
so they voted for their own interestsFeersumEnjineeya said:
Most of the non-political leave voters of my acquaintance (mostly elderly and less educated) voted for more money for the NHS, fewer immigrants and an end to the imposition of EU laws on the UK. That was about as far as their analysis went.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
why's that wrong ?0 -
This is where leadership comes in. Like all things, politics is a world of compromise, of achieving the possible. Cons and you have fixated on one element - immigration - and have subordinated every single other factor to that one point.HYUFD said:
Yet the very same poll I quoted shows the majority of the British electorate want to end FOM so you cannot escape that requirement whether the Tories or Labour are in powerTOPPING said:
Finally! You accept that the government should govern for the British people, ie the whole country, and not just those who want an end to FoM. So why doesn't the government follow this very sensible analysis and come up with a plan which acknowledges that.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)
And if you are talking about the Ipsos Mori poll, 54% want it reduced. And for that look what we might do to our country.0 -
the bulk of the remain campaign was based on the dire consequences of leaving. So how you can claim no-one heard of the ( much exaggerated ) downside is astounding.FeersumEnjineeya said:
They voted for what they thought were their best interests. They didn't have any more than the vaguest conception that there might be any significant downsides to Brexit, and certainly nothing that might affect them personally. When things do go pear-shaped, they'll blame May's government for badly implementing Brexit, not themselves for making the wrong choice. This is why Corbyn will win the next election.Alanbrooke said:
so they voted for their own interestsFeersumEnjineeya said:
Most of the non-political leave voters of my acquaintance (mostly elderly and less educated) voted for more money for the NHS, fewer immigrants and an end to the imposition of EU laws on the UK. That was about as far as their analysis went.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or re accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
why's that wrong ?
even if they " thought" it was in their best interest that simply means Remain didn't have a convincing enough argument to make them change their minds0 -
He sounds soft in the head. Did he have family who'd been to Trinity?HYUFD said:Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, comes out as a Remainer 'the EU has been the greatest thing for human beings since the Western Roman Empire'
https://mobile.twitter.com/wareisjoe/status/1003984057787699202
Used to work for Elf Aquitaine
Is it true that he later corrected, albeit continuing to thumb his nose at Byzantium: "since the Western Roman Empire, the Aztec Empire, and the Confederate States of America"?
0 -
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.0 -
I'm not talking about "diehard" Brexiteers or Remainers, but rather those non-political folk who voted for Brexit simply because they thought it was in their interests. On the whole, they don't really know or care what Corbyn thinks, but if there are major economic repercussions, they'll blame the Tories for messing up what, to them, seems a fairly straightforward task. After all, Brexit is Brexit. Couldn't be simpler :-)HYUFD said:
No, Brexiteers will stick with the Tories and diehard Remainers will go LD not Corbyn Labour in such a scenarioFeersumEnjineeya said:
They voted for what they thought were their best interests. They didn't have any more than the vaguest conception that there might be any significant downsides to Brexit, and certainly nothing that might affect them personally. When things do go pear-shaped, they'll blame May's government for badly implementing Brexit, not themselves for making the wrong choice. This is why Corbyn will win the next election.Alanbrooke said:
so they voted for their own interestsFeersumEnjineeya said:
Most of the non-political leave voters of my acquaintance (mostly elderly and less educated) voted for more money for the NHS, fewer immigrants and an end to the imposition of EU laws on the UK. That was about as far as their analysis went.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
why's that wrong ?0 -
I'm not sure why pb's Conservatives are so depressed about the current government contortions about customs. It's not as though its eventual position is going to make very much difference to the ultimate outcome, which will be largely set by Brussels anyway on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.0
-
raise productivity ?TOPPING said:
This is where leadership comes in. Like all things, politics is a world of compromise, of achieving the possible. Cons and you have fixated on one element - immigration - and have subordinated every single other factor to that one point.HYUFD said:
Yet the very same poll I quoted shows the majority of the British electorate want to end FOM so you cannot escape that requirement whether the Tories or Labour are in powerTOPPING said:
Finally! You accept that the government should govern for the British people, ie the whole country, and not just those who want an end to FoM. So why doesn't the government follow this very sensible analysis and come up with a plan which acknowledges that.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)
And if you are talking about the Ipsos Mori poll, 54% want it reduced. And for that look what we might do to our country.
increase salaries ?
force employers to train their staff ?
ease the housing shortage ?
give infrastructure a chance to catch up with the population ?
dreadful.
0 -
The only bits of Northern Rail I have left to do are:
Barrow to Carlisle
Darlington to Bishop Auckland
Darlington to Saltburn
Thornaby to Stockton
Middlesbrough to Whitby
Retford to Barnetby via Brigg (Sats only!)
Clitheroe to Hellifield (Suns only!)
Habrough to Barton-on-Humber
Wakefield Westgate to Kirkgate
Selby to York (two routes)
Burnley to Hebden Bridge
plus rarities like:
Stockport to Guide Bridge (Fri mornings!)
Bare Lane to Carnforth0 -
German car industry going to save us?TOPPING said:
Funnily enough I see more potential for a fudge/concession from the EU than that. I have long held the view, informed by various folk close to the situation prior to the vote, that an EEA solution is untenable for the size of economy that the UK is. But that's not to say that there couldn't be the creation of a EUKEA with some tremendous amount of fudge contained therein.ralphmalph said:
It does not really matter what consensus in the country wants because the EU has said no cherry picking and have been perfectly clear on that.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and eHYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
The only options on offer were
Stay 100%
Go to EEA (although Ireland would veto this)
Third country with a customs deal
Third country with an FTA deal
Third country.
These options should have been presented to the country and the vote given to parliament.
May has decided to try to do the impossible she wants the benefits of the single market with this bit and that bit and Corbyn is saying the same all the benefits of the single market but with these opt outs or opt-ins.
None of that has ever been on offer and never will be on offer. Who ever told here to try and execute this strategy is as much at fault as May.0 -
That, I don't see.ralphmalph said:
German car industry going to save us?TOPPING said:
Funnily enough I see more potential for a fudge/concession from the EU than that. I have long held the view, informed by various folk close to the situation prior to the vote, that an EEA solution is untenable for the size of economy that the UK is. But that's not to say that there couldn't be the creation of a EUKEA with some tremendous amount of fudge contained therein.ralphmalph said:
It does not really matter what consensus in the country wants because the EU has said no cherry picking and have been perfectly clear on that.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or remain voters. And nor do you. Each of the 17 million who voted leave would, I suppose, have had a slightly different combination of motives. This is the heart of the problem - there is no agreed interpretation of what "leave" means. May has made no attempt to achieve a national consensus on the issue and has instead allowed policy to be driven by the ERG. This has left the UK in a very weak position such that we will either go over the economic cliff or humbly accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and eHYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
The only options on offer were
Stay 100%
Go to EEA (although Ireland would veto this)
Third country with a customs deal
Third country with an FTA deal
Third country.
These options should have been presented to the country and the vote given to parliament.
May has decided to try to do the impossible she wants the benefits of the single market with this bit and that bit and Corbyn is saying the same all the benefits of the single market but with these opt outs or opt-ins.
None of that has ever been on offer and never will be on offer. Who ever told here to try and execute this strategy is as much at fault as May.0 -
Good point. Like cutting off your arm because you have a blister on your littler finger.Alanbrooke said:
raise productivity ?TOPPING said:
This is where leadership comes in. Like all things, politics is a world of compromise, of achieving the possible. Cons and you have fixated on one element - immigration - and have subordinated every single other factor to that one point.HYUFD said:
Yet the very same poll I quoted shows the majority of the British electorate want to end FOM so you cannot escape that requirement whether the Tories or Labour are in powerTOPPING said:
Finally! You accept that the government should govern for the British people, ie the whole country, and not just those who want an end to FoM. So why doesn't the government follow this very sensible analysis and come up with a plan which acknowledges that.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)
And if you are talking about the Ipsos Mori poll, 54% want it reduced. And for that look what we might do to our country.
increase salaries ?
force employers to train their staff ?
ease the housing shortage ?
give infrastructure a chance to catch up with the population ?
dreadful.0 -
hey you guys called that referendumTheScreamingEagles said:
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.0 -
Because there’s a significant number of Tory MPs that get positively tumescent at the prospect of no deal Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:I'm not sure why pb's Conservatives are so depressed about the current government contortions about customs. It's not as though its eventual position is going to make very much difference to the ultimate outcome, which will be largely set by Brussels anyway on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
In my view a no deal Brexit dooms the Tory party in opposition for decades.
Even if PM Corbyn screws up he can blame the hard Brexiteers for the mess he inherited.
0 -
Unfortunately, snake-oil salesmen can be very convincing :-(Alanbrooke said:
the bulk of the remain campaign was based on the dire consequences of leaving. So how you can claim no-one heard of the ( much exaggerated ) downside is astounding.FeersumEnjineeya said:
They voted for what they thought were their best interests. They didn't have any more than the vaguest conception that there might be any significant downsides to Brexit, and certainly nothing that might affect them personally. When things do go pear-shaped, they'll blame May's government for badly implementing Brexit, not themselves for making the wrong choice. This is why Corbyn will win the next election.Alanbrooke said:
so they voted for their own interestsFeersumEnjineeya said:
Most of the non-political leave voters of my acquaintance (mostly elderly and less educated) voted for more money for the NHS, fewer immigrants and an end to the imposition of EU laws on the UK. That was about as far as their analysis went.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or re accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
why's that wrong ?
even if they " thought" it was in their best interest that simply means Remain didn't have a convincing enough argument to make them change their minds0 -
whereas your alternative is to keep stuffing your face with lard while wearing that pair of 30 inch waist trousers that last fitted when you were 14.TOPPING said:
Good point. Like cutting off your arm because you have a blister on your littler finger.Alanbrooke said:
raise productivity ?TOPPING said:
This is where leadership comes in. Like all things, politics is a world of compromise, of achieving the possible. Cons and you have fixated on one element - immigration - and have subordinated every single other factor to that one point.HYUFD said:
Yet the very same poll I quoted shows the majority of the British electorate want to end FOM so you cannot escape that requirement whether the Tories or Labour are in powerTOPPING said:
Finally! You accept that the government should govern for the British people, ie the whole country, and not just those who want an end to FoM. So why doesn't the government follow this very sensible analysis and come up with a plan which acknowledges that.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)
And if you are talking about the Ipsos Mori poll, 54% want it reduced. And for that look what we might do to our country.
increase salaries ?
force employers to train their staff ?
ease the housing shortage ?
give infrastructure a chance to catch up with the population ?
dreadful.0 -
or in Osborne's case notFeersumEnjineeya said:
Unfortunately, snake-oil salesmen can be very convincing :-(Alanbrooke said:
the bulk of the remain campaign was based on the dire consequences of leaving. So how you can claim no-one heard of the ( much exaggerated ) downside is astounding.FeersumEnjineeya said:
They voted for what they thought were their best interests. They didn't have any more than the vaguest conception that there might be any significant downsides to Brexit, and certainly nothing that might affect them personally. When things do go pear-shaped, they'll blame May's government for badly implementing Brexit, not themselves for making the wrong choice. This is why Corbyn will win the next election.Alanbrooke said:
so they voted for their own interestsFeersumEnjineeya said:
Most of the non-political leave voters of my acquaintance (mostly elderly and less educated) voted for more money for the NHS, fewer immigrants and an end to the imposition of EU laws on the UK. That was about as far as their analysis went.anothernick said:
Of course I do not know what motivated either leave or re accept whatever the EU offers us.Richard_Tyndall said:
No they didn't. And given you didn't vote Leave you are in no position to make those claims. Like so many Remoaners you speak from a position of ignorance.anothernick said:
Correct. 17 million people voted to leave the EU and enter a world in which the UK would get all the benefits of membership but none of the costs, vast amounts would be invested in the NHS and the EU would give us a simple, cost-free Brexit.HYUFD said:
17 million voted Leave to trigger Article 50 much as diehard Remainers may wish to gloss over that factSouthamObserver said:This entire post-referendum mess boils down to one thing: the catastrophic decision to trigger Article 50 without first understanding the complexities of the UK’s integration into the EU or having an agreed strategy about how to work through these. Everything else flows from that.
But the world they voted for is a fantasy and cannot be made into reality simply by voting for it.
You may think this is what 17 million people voted for but I would beg to differ.
why's that wrong ?
even if they " thought" it was in their best interest that simply means Remain didn't have a convincing enough argument to make them change their minds0 -
I know. I blame Dave for not going Blue on Blue.Alanbrooke said:
hey you guys called that referendumTheScreamingEagles said:
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.
I blame Boris for putting his leadership ambitions ahead of the country.
I blame Gove for legitimatising a vile campaign, something I’m told he privately regrets.
I blame myself for thinking and encouraging the strategy that won the Indyref and GE2015 would win the Brexit referendum.
Dave should have listened to George and not offered the referendum.0 -
I liked this response from one of the DM's finest minds:Dura_Ace said:
If he consulted the leavers on here he would have realised that all he needs to do is build an airport in the office car park.Scott_P said:https://twitter.com/NickGibbs/status/1004230896457838592
EDIT: I am sure our car part manufacture and logistics "experts" will be along shortly to tell us the boss of Unipart is wrong...
Project Fear has not gone away!... Unipart should have a "can do" attitude... Stop whining and stop being so negative... The US does not have a trade deal with the EU, and the US is the richest country in the world!... The CEO of Unipart is putting his staff at risk by complaining so much... He should be in the office, working out a strategy for the future -- not writing whiny articles for the papers.
Which one of you was it?0 -
O/T Though its no longer my district council, is (If it as reported) a 'normal' use of funds ?
North East Derbyshire District Council’s ruling Labour group have approved £8.663m in borrowings to loan to the Northwood Group – a joint venture company set up to provide almost 200 houses at the Ankerbold Road site in Tupton – only 39 of which will be classed as affordable homes.
The loan is made up of £0.963m in shareholder investment; with a further £7.7m on commercial terms to facilitate the development of Ankerbold Road.
The £8.663m in borrowing exceeded the Authorised Borrowing Limit set within the authority’s
Operational Boundary and Capital Financing Requirements and as such the Council was required to update that policy upon agreeing to borrow the amount.
To me it looks like the council acting as a development financier which is kind of risky...0 -
Nope. My alternative is to focus on, by incentivising improving productivity and making long term infrastructure plans. I simply don't have a problem with immigration. Are you finding the streets of Leamington being over-run?Alanbrooke said:
whereas your alternative is to keep stuffing your face with lard while wearing that pair of 30 inch waist trousers that last fitted when you were 14.TOPPING said:
Good point. Like cutting off your arm because you have a blister on your littler finger.Alanbrooke said:
raise productivity ?TOPPING said:
This is where leadership comes in. Like all things, politics is a world of compromise, of achieving the possible. Cons and you have fixated on one element - immigration - and have subordinated every single other factor to that one point.HYUFD said:
Yet the very same poll I quoted shows the majority of the British electorate want to end FOM so you cannot escape that requirement whether the Tories or Labour are in powerTOPPING said:
Finally! You accept that the government should govern for the British people, ie the whole country, and not just those who want an end to FoM. So why doesn't the government follow this very sensible analysis and come up with a plan which acknowledges that.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive over Brexit, as Opinium showed this week the only Brexit proposal with over 50% support is EEA membership with restrictions on free movement which is logically impossible so whoever is PM a large section of the electorate will not be happy with how Brexit turns out and if you are decisive and appease diehard Brexiteers you infuriate diehard Remainers and vica-versaYorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)
And if you are talking about the Ipsos Mori poll, 54% want it reduced. And for that look what we might do to our country.
increase salaries ?
force employers to train their staff ?
ease the housing shortage ?
give infrastructure a chance to catch up with the population ?
dreadful.0 -
Indeed - let's have a hard Brexit on WTO terms and add things back in with the EU after a while if they haven't found export markets for their humongous balance of trade surplus that they have with the Uk.AlastairMeeks said:I'm not sure why pb's Conservatives are so depressed about the current government contortions about customs. It's not as though its eventual position is going to make very much difference to the ultimate outcome, which will be largely set by Brussels anyway on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
Only way to move on frankly and what should have have been the outlook from the start. WTO plus whatever the EU can stomach.
0 -
Nah Dave should have listened to me and shot Osborne, he'd still be PMTheScreamingEagles said:
I know. I blame Dave for not going Blue on Blue.Alanbrooke said:
hey you guys called that referendumTheScreamingEagles said:
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.
I blame Boris for putting his leadership ambitions ahead of the country.
I blame Gove for legitimatising a vile campaign, something I’m told he privately regrets.
I blame myself for thinking and encouraging the strategy that won the Indyref and GE2015 would win the Brexit referendum.
Dave should have listened to George and not offered the referendum.0 -
BFDTheScreamingEagles said:I blame Gove for legitimatising a vile campaign, something I’m told he privately regrets.
0 -
My view too. Ask the EU27 what the deal is then either eat the shit sandwich or walk out to WTO.AlastairMeeks said:I'm not sure why pb's Conservatives are so depressed about the current government contortions about customs. It's not as though its eventual position is going to make very much difference to the ultimate outcome, which will be largely set by Brussels anyway on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
0 -
https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1003266277908066305TheScreamingEagles said:
I blame Gove for legitimatising a vile campaign, something I’m told he privately regrets.Alanbrooke said:
hey you guys called that referendumTheScreamingEagles said:
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.0 -
The most logical and just Brexit position for Theresa to take is the softest Brexit possible. That way, if the public doesn't like it, they can vote for WTO terms at a later election. But if we start with nothing it will be all but impossible to get any goodies from the EU in the coming years. It's called giving the public as much choice as possible.0
-
Good afternoon, everyone.
Just a reminder that some of us suspected the clock would be run down to try and force us either into a worse position, or use that to justify remaining/referendum 2.
The main question now is if May is just being sly or incompetent.0 -
The EU is a process-driven organisation but that's not to say they couldn't establish a process for a country in the situation that the UK is. Draft any number of special (small s) terms and treaties. I think it is entirely possible.Foxy said:
My view too. Ask the EU27 what the deal is then either eat the shit sandwich or walk out to WTO.AlastairMeeks said:I'm not sure why pb's Conservatives are so depressed about the current government contortions about customs. It's not as though its eventual position is going to make very much difference to the ultimate outcome, which will be largely set by Brussels anyway on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
But it would take 5-10 years.
If we really wanted to leave properly, this is what we would ask for/have asked for. But of course UK politics (no politics) works like that and it would require some form of Grand Coalition so as not to derail the whole thing at any time along the way.
So as it stands, and in the absence of any plan on our side, yes I agree with you.0 -
But look on the bright side - the Leavers would be forever damned by history - they would be vilified even more than the appeasers of the 1930s.TheScreamingEagles said:
Because there’s a significant number of Tory MPs that get positively tumescent at the prospect of no deal Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:I'm not sure why pb's Conservatives are so depressed about the current government contortions about customs. It's not as though its eventual position is going to make very much difference to the ultimate outcome, which will be largely set by Brussels anyway on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
In my view a no deal Brexit dooms the Tory party in opposition for decades.
Even if PM Corbyn screws up he can blame the hard Brexiteers for the mess he inherited.0 -
Cheers for that.AlastairMeeks said:
https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1003266277908066305TheScreamingEagles said:
I blame Gove for legitimatising a vile campaign, something I’m told he privately regrets.Alanbrooke said:
hey you guys called that referendumTheScreamingEagles said:
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.0 -
The Graun is having a ball over the unanimity of approbation for Jezza's PMQs triumph.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jun/06/pmqs-brexit-starmer-says-labour-wont-back-staying-in-eea-because-party-too-divided-politics-live?page=with:block-5b17cef5e4b069235b5d2844#block-5b17cef5e4b069235b5d28440 -
-
Should Dave have resigned? Should he have accepted the result, "kept calm and carried on"?TheScreamingEagles said:
I know. I blame Dave for not going Blue on Blue.Alanbrooke said:
hey you guys called that referendumTheScreamingEagles said:
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.
I blame Boris for putting his leadership ambitions ahead of the country.
I blame Gove for legitimatising a vile campaign, something I’m told he privately regrets.
I blame myself for thinking and encouraging the strategy that won the Indyref and GE2015 would win the Brexit referendum.
Dave should have listened to George and not offered the referendum.0 -
His authority was shot and he’d have been forced out by the Leavers.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Should Dave have resigned? Should he have accepted the result, "kept calm and carried on"?TheScreamingEagles said:
I know. I blame Dave for not going Blue on Blue.Alanbrooke said:
hey you guys called that referendumTheScreamingEagles said:
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.
I blame Boris for putting his leadership ambitions ahead of the country.
I blame Gove for legitimatising a vile campaign, something I’m told he privately regrets.
I blame myself for thinking and encouraging the strategy that won the Indyref and GE2015 would win the Brexit referendum.
Dave should have listened to George and not offered the referendum.
Heck had Remain won 75-25 Andrew Bridgen would have tried to force Dave out.0 -
I used to have a regular lunch with a friend and, come the day, each of us would wait until the last possible moment to cancel because we both knew we would both be cancelling.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
TOPPING said:Alanbrooke said:
Like most leavers I dont have a problem with immigration per se either, I just want it controlled sensibly. I want us to look after the people in our own society who are hardest hit by low wages, I want sensible housing and I want infrastructure that works.TOPPING said:
Nope. My alternative is to focus on, by incentivising improving productivity and making long term infrastructure plans. I simply don't have a problem with immigration. Are you finding the streets of Leamington being over-run?Alanbrooke said:
whereas your alternative is to keep stuffing your face with lard while wearing that pair of 30 inch waist trousers that last fitted when you were 14.TOPPING said:
Good point. Like cutting off your arm because you have a blister on your littler finger.HYUFD said:
raise productivity ?TOPPING said:
Yet the very same poll I quoted shows the to that one point.HYUFD said:
The problem is the British people are indecisive ovenowledges that.Yorkcity said:
Agreed , she is a decent lady , but leadership over Brexit , seems beyond her capabilities.Casino_Royale said:
I am fast approaching the point of having no confidence in May’s premiership.GarethoftheVale2 said:May was very poor at PMQs. She is running out of room to kick the can for much longer. It feels like things will have to come to a head soon.
She is providing no leadership.
(I am leaving the sovereignty angle out of it because as you know we always were sovereign.)
And if you are talking about the Ipsos Mori poll, 54% want it reduced. And for that look what we might do to our country.
increase salaries ?
force employers to train their staff ?
ease the housing shortage ?
give infrastructure a chance to catch up with the population ?
dreadful.0 -
Wrong!! Most leavers (please refer to @HYUFD) have a problem with immigration. Most people in this country have a problem with immigration.Alanbrooke said:Like most leavers I dont have a problem with immigration per se either, I just want it controlled sensibly. I want us to look after the people in our own society who are hardest hit by low wages, I want sensible housing and I want infrastructure that works.
As for the other stuff, immigration is neither here nor there in our attempts to address those issues. Like the EU it is a convenient and lazy peg upon which to hang our failure to do so.
Edit: always happy to sort out your formatting issues!!
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I am kind of resigned to this now. I feel future Tory leaders will elect to make sure we creep away from the E.U and it's institutions anyways.Stark_Dawning said:The most logical and just Brexit position for Theresa to take is the softest Brexit possible. That way, if the public doesn't like it, they can vote for WTO terms at a later election. But if we start with nothing it will be all but impossible to get any goodies from the EU in the coming years. It's called giving the public as much choice as possible.
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Had Dave not resigned, we wouldn't have Theresa as PM.TheScreamingEagles said:
His authority was shot and he’d have been forced out by the Leavers.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Should Dave have resigned? Should he have accepted the result, "kept calm and carried on"?TheScreamingEagles said:
I know. I blame Dave for not going Blue on Blue.Alanbrooke said:
hey you guys called that referendumTheScreamingEagles said:
The current Tory party are driving a good Muslim boy like me to the brink of drinking that bubbly with you.JohnO said:Theresa May was dreadful today but that’s not really the point: much as I would wish it otherwise, I can’t see how the Conservatives can stay together with even a semblance of cohesion irrespective of whether Brexit is soft or hard. If the former, then the prospects of Cabinet resignations (Johnson, Fox, Davis, Gove??) aided by their 70+ backbench supporters must be a serious likelihood. If the latter, what becomes of Clarke, Soubry, Grieve, Hammond S, Morgan, Damian Green et al: sure their numbers are modest but enough to wreak havoc. There is so little, if any, common ground.
And not even Corbyn PM seems to be a deterrent.
The crunch is not this month, but the autumn and it ain’t going to be pretty.
But if I win my £100 bet with TSE - and I think I will - I can at least drown my sorrows with his best bubbly.
What a world from May 8th 2015.
I blame Boris for putting his leadership ambitions ahead of the country.
I blame Gove for legitimatising a vile campaign, something I’m told he privately regrets.
I blame myself for thinking and encouraging the strategy that won the Indyref and GE2015 would win the Brexit referendum.
Dave should have listened to George and not offered the referendum.
Heck had Remain won 75-25 Andrew Bridgen would have tried to force Dave out.0 -
I wouldn't base your claims just on PB, it's not the real world.TOPPING said:
Wrong!! Most leavers (please refer to @HYUFD) have a problem with immigration. Most people in this country have a problem with immigration.Alanbrooke said:Like most leavers I dont have a problem with immigration per se either, I just want it controlled sensibly. I want us to look after the people in our own society who are hardest hit by low wages, I want sensible housing and I want infrastructure that works.
As for the other stuff, immigration is neither here nor there in our attempts to address those issues. Like the EU it is a convenient and lazy peg upon which to hang our failure to do so.
Edit: always happy to sort out your formatting issues!!
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/04/27/where-public-stands-immigration/0 -
Some decent results for the Democrats in the midterm primaries - which ought to marginally improve the odds of taking the House in November;
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/democrats-avoid-disaster-in-california-and-five-other-takeaways-from-super-tuesday.html?0
