politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s approach to Brexit risks alienating the enthusiastic
Comments
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I am not expecting a major party to run on a Rejoin platform until GE 2027, but that may well be a very chastened Tory party or a post Corbyn Labour Party.Mortimer said:
I think the rejoin threshold will be too much to stomach for many who voted Remain when it was the status quo option - Euro, EU Army etc...Foxy said:
I think that there will be a powerful Rejoin movement in time, at least as politically divisive as the Eurosceptics have been these last decades.ydoethur said:
Not necessarily if there continues to be a big move to go back in.Foxy said:
It all depends on whether the next election takes place before or after Brexit. Cornyn policy becomes moot if the latter.rkrkrk said:On topic - not clear where these voters would go.
A more left-wing Lib Dem party might have a chance of picking them up?
I disagree with Mike that Corbyn doesn't change his mind - this has already happened on the customs union - and it is certainly possible he might go further. He certainly isn't making clear, unambiguous statements like Theresa May - he 's leaving wriggle room.
Waiting until the govt has a plan on Brexit still seems a good strategy to me.
Ironically however that may hurt Labour more. The Conservatives will surely not be interested in going back in, and most of their voters certainly won't (I know there are exceptions). Labour however have the odd situation where their voters really do seem to be desperate to turn back the clock and their leadership are resisting. In such circumstances coming up with a workable policy on Europe may actually be crucial for Labour. It would be a peerless irony if Labour were the party to split over Brexit.
The Conservatives too have a difficult cluster of horses to ride, including pro EU business types, Hannanite Antlantacist free traders and socially conservative backwoodsmen in the Shires as well as WWC voters in the old coalfields who are quite Socialist economically.
@ydoethur seems surprised that others are not as utilitarian as he is towards the EU, but that euro-idealism is prevalent across the continent. The failure to harness it domestically and to concentrate on Project Fear was Remain's mistake.
Still, on Euro referendums we are 1 all now, heading for best of 3. I suspect a decade off still as there needs to be a change of government first.0 -
The Mexicans are not represented by Liam Fox.CarlottaVance said:
Have the Mexicans paid for the wall yet?SouthamObserver said:Almost every policy Trump espouses runs contrary to UK interests. No US president in living memory has been so anti-British. It’s amazing what leeway white skin and a Churchill bust can secure.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/996382410509094912?s=210 -
Perhaps the most significant policy effect of Corbyn has been to force the government to end Osborne's freezing of the earnings level at which student debt is repaid.rkrkrk said:
What is a serious opposition? It should like?SouthamObserver said:
Having no serious opposition lets the Tories off the hook, but is hugely damaging to the country.
To my mind the Labour opposition has forced the Tories (admittedly in a weak position post GE) into a number of u-turns on universal credit, Brexit bill, NHS privatisations, capping housing benefit for social housing and supported accommodation, NIC for self-employed etc.
Labour's parliamentary tactics in getting Brexit information out have been quite clever also I think.0 -
Euro-idealism, at least in this country, is an upper-middle class niche with a heavy undertone of social snobbery.Foxy said:
I am not expecting a major party to run on a Rejoin platform until GE 2027, but that may well be a very chastened Tory party or a post Corbyn Labour Party.Mortimer said:
I think the rejoin threshold will be too much to stomach for many who voted Remain when it was the status quo option - Euro, EU Army etc...Foxy said:
I think that there will be a powerful Rejoin movement in time, at least as politically divisive as the Eurosceptics have been these last decades.ydoethur said:
Not necessarily if there continues to be a big move to go back in.Foxy said:
It all depends on whether the next election takes place before or after Brexit. Cornyn policy becomes moot if the latter.rkrkrk said:On topic - not clear where these voters would go.
A more left-wing Lib Dem party might have a chance of picking them up?
I disagree with Mike that Corbyn doesn't change his mind - this has already happened on the customs union - and it is certainly possible he might go further. He certainly isn't making clear, unambiguous statements like Theresa May - he 's leaving wriggle room.
Waiting until the govt has a plan on Brexit still seems a good strategy to me.
Ironically however that may hurt Labour more. The Conservatives will surely not be interested in going back in, and most of their voters certainly won't (I know there are exceptions). Labour however have the odd situation where their voters really do seem to be desperate to turn back the clock and their leadership are resisting. In such circumstances coming up with a workable policy on Europe may actually be crucial for Labour. It would be a peerless irony if Labour were the party to split over Brexit.
The Conservatives too have a difficult cluster of horses to ride, including pro EU business types, Hannanite Antlantacist free traders and socially conservative backwoodsmen in the Shires as well as WWC voters in the old coalfields who are quite Socialist economically.
@ydoethur seems surprised that others are not as utilitarian as he is towards the EU, but that euro-idealism is prevalent across the continent. The failure to harness it domestically and to concentrate on Project Fear was Remain's mistake.
Still, on Euro referendums we are 1 all now, heading for best of 3. I suspect a decade off still as there needs to be a change of government first.
PB reflects this demographic more than the country as a whole.0 -
I honestly don’t think there’s much Euro idealism about.
Simply, that many Remainers sincerely believe that leaving the EU is economically, culturally, and strategically harmful to the U.K.
What exactly has happened to change our minds?
Our economy has stalled, the pound in our pocket is worth less money, and foreign investment has collapsed.
A culture of intolerance (traitors, saboteurs) has become normalised. Our political class has never looked less competent; leading figures are widely scorned. And we have made no headway on systemic issues facing the country - it’s Brexit for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
And Brexit makes us a less important player inside and outside Europe. Remember, for example, the “golden partnership” with China? Evaporated in June 2016.
It is in fact cold calculation of the U.K.’s relative position globally, and it’s prospects for growth domestically, which makes me and many others continue in Remainerism, not a love of the “blue and yellow”.0 -
The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?
It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.0 -
But maybe the lower classes, as you define them, might not relish getting poorer?another_richard said:
Euro-idealism, at least in this country, is an upper-middle class niche with a heavy undertone of social snobbery.Foxy said:
I am not expecting a major party to run on a Rejoin platform until GE 2027, but that may well be a very chastened Tory party or a post Corbyn Labour Party.Mortimer said:
I think the rejoin threshold will be too much to stomach for many who voted Remain when it was the status quo option - Euro, EU Army etc...Foxy said:
I think that there will be a powerful Rejoin movement in time, at least as politically divisive as the Eurosceptics have been these last decades.ydoethur said:
Not necessarily if there continues to be a big move to go back in.Foxy said:
It all depends on whether the next election takes place before or after Brexit. Cornyn policy becomes moot if the latter.rkrkrk said:On topic - not clear where these voters would go.
A more left-wing Lib Dem party might have a chance of picking them up?
I disagree with Mike that Corbyn doesn't change his mind - this has already happened on the customs union - and it is certainly possible he might go further. He certainly isn't making clear, unambiguous statements like Theresa May - he 's leaving wriggle room.
Waiting until the govt has a plan on Brexit still seems a good strategy to me.
Ironically however that may hurt Labour more. The Conservatives will surely not be interested in going back in, and most of their voters certainly won't (I know there are exceptions). Labour however have the odd situation where their voters really do seem to be desperate to turn back the clock and their leadership are resisting. In such circumstances coming up with a workable policy on Europe may actually be crucial for Labour. It would be a peerless irony if Labour were the party to split over Brexit.
The Conservatives too have a difficult cluster of horses to ride, including pro EU business types, Hannanite Antlantacist free traders and socially conservative backwoodsmen in the Shires as well as WWC voters in the old coalfields who are quite Socialist economically.
@ydoethur seems surprised that others are not as utilitarian as he is towards the EU, but that euro-idealism is prevalent across the continent. The failure to harness it domestically and to concentrate on Project Fear was Remain's mistake.
Still, on Euro referendums we are 1 all now, heading for best of 3. I suspect a decade off still as there needs to be a change of government first.
PB reflects this demographic more than the country as a whole.0 -
Mr. Walker, you missed off the overuse of 'xenophobes' and 'racists'.
I think government incompetence at executing the negotiations is something both sides could agree upon.0 -
Yet more desperate wishful thinking.Scott_P said:0 -
It's good that the Cabinet is spending a lot of time arguing about which of two different customs models on Brexit to choose. That is what they will have to do eventually.
It will have to choose between "take it" and "leave it".0 -
Seems he mentioned 'Libya', the fate Kim fears most. Whether Bolton was being cack-handed or it is part of some wider scheme is unclear.FF43 said:
The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?
It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.0 -
Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?
' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.
As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.
However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-441258370 -
I thought they were 'just' going to run a parallel Italian currency and let the Euro take care of itself in the background?CarlottaVance said:0 -
The only rational explanation I have is that this is an exercise in distraction. The whole point of debating two non existent options at such painful length is to NOT make a decision, so the EU's draft withdrawal agreement goes through at the last minute, on the nod and without discussion. T That withdrawal agreement contains the Northern Ireland backstop that Theresa May says no British PM would ever sign up to.rottenborough said:0 -
Which is why they've been so harmed by uncontrolled immigration into the areas they live in.logical_song said:
But maybe the lower classes, as you define them, might not relish getting poorer?another_richard said:
Euro-idealism, at least in this country, is an upper-middle class niche with a heavy undertone of social snobbery.Foxy said:
I am not expecting a major party to run on a Rejoin platform until GE 2027, but that may well be a very chastened Tory party or a post Corbyn Labour Party.Mortimer said:
I think the rejoin threshold will be too much to stomach for many who voted Remain when it was the status quo option - Euro, EU Army etc...
@ydoethur seems surprised that others are not as utilitarian as he is towards the EU, but that euro-idealism is prevalent across the continent. The failure to harness it domestically and to concentrate on Project Fear was Remain's mistake.
Still, on Euro referendums we are 1 all now, heading for best of 3. I suspect a decade off still as there needs to be a change of government first.
PB reflects this demographic more than the country as a whole.
Do I take it you oppose this uncontrolled immigration ?0 -
Let me guess, they are disproportionately located in That Londonanother_richard said:Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?
' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.
As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.
However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-441258370 -
I'm not sure the EU can survive as it is.
My premise is that it's unstable because it's neither one thing (a fully united country), or separate countries. Its a mish-mash, at best, an unfinished cunning plan.
There's no place for nationalism in that plan, but nationalism is persistent, especially in some of the newer entries, and in some of the what the Yanks call the 'flown over.'
As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.0 -
Which would, I humbly suggest, bring down the government.FF43 said:
The only rational explanation I have is that this is an exercise in distraction. The whole point of debating two non existent options at such painful length is to NOT make a decision, so the EU's draft withdrawal agreement goes through at the last minute, on the nod and without discussion. T That withdrawal agreement contains the Northern Ireland backstop that Theresa May says no British PM would ever sign up to.rottenborough said:0 -
Mr. 43, I agree. The only two explanations are that May is even more atrocious at politics and leadership than many thought, or, as you say, this is now intentionally winding down the clock in a bid to get a departure in name only result as the choice before Parliament will be leaving with no deal, or leaving on the terms the EU has determined.
And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.0 -
The government’s incompetence has been in great part due to Theresa May’s craven attempts to placate the mad Brexit wing.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Walker, you missed off the overuse of 'xenophobes' and 'racists'.
I think government incompetence at executing the negotiations is something both sides could agree upon.
The correct way to exit, as some on here (not me) suggested *before* the vote, was via a long transition through an EFTA antechamber, accompanied by concilatory rhetoric about our future with (but not in) Europe.0 -
Not sure about the choice of language here:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/9966631648287784970 -
Another Richard is fond of quoting stats but perhaps hasn’t noticed the vertiginous collapse in home ownership (especially, but not just in London) visible in the 35-44 cohort. They’ll be middle aged in a decade.Anazina said:
Let me guess, they are disproportionately located in That Londonanother_richard said:Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?
' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.
As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.
However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-441258370 -
If the alternative is crash out and utter chaos, I'm not so sure people will choose chaos. The point is to force the issue. I'm not keen on the method but eventually we have to face reality.rottenborough said:
Which would, I humbly suggest, bring down the government.FF43 said:
The only rational explanation I have is that this is an exercise in distraction. The whole point of debating two non existent options at such painful length is to NOT make a decision, so the EU's draft withdrawal agreement goes through at the last minute, on the nod and without discussion. T That withdrawal agreement contains the Northern Ireland backstop that Theresa May says no British PM would ever sign up to.rottenborough said:0 -
And one that costs us £10 billion/year, which incidentally is roughly our net contributions to the EU. If leaving the EU lets us get rid of that expensive embarrasment, I say that's yet another benefit.not_on_fire said:
NI is effectively a larger version of Gibraltar with far worse weatherAnazina said:
Certainly that is true of NI, if one considers it part of the UK. De jure it is, but it has an odd status, given its citizens can choose instead to be citizens of the Republic.williamglenn said:
Though I doubt the Republic would be willing to take it on when they realise how expensive it would be: that's about £3,000/year for every man, woman and child in Ireland.0 -
Maybe it wouldn’t “cost” us (a weird way of looking at it, does your non-working grandmother “cost” us?) if we had a viable regional development policy.Fishing said:
And one that costs us £10 billion/year, which incidentally is roughly our net contributions to the EU. If leaving the EU lets us get rid of that expensive embarrasment, I say that's yet another benefit.not_on_fire said:
NI is effectively a larger version of Gibraltar with far worse weatherAnazina said:
Certainly that is true of NI, if one considers it part of the UK. De jure it is, but it has an odd status, given its citizens can choose instead to be citizens of the Republic.williamglenn said:
Though I doubt the Republic would be willing to take it on when they realise how expensive it would be: that's about £3,000/year for every man, woman and child in Ireland.
We had 40 years of cack-handed centralist control after the war, and then 40 years of market knows best. It’s now clear the latter failed large parts of the country.0 -
Just as West Germany took on East Germany, so the Republic of Ireland would take on Northern Ireland.Fishing said:
And one that costs us £10 billion/year, which incidentally is roughly our net contributions to the EU. If leaving the EU lets us get rid of that expensive embarrasment, I say that's yet another benefit.not_on_fire said:
NI is effectively a larger version of Gibraltar with far worse weatherAnazina said:
Certainly that is true of NI, if one considers it part of the UK. De jure it is, but it has an odd status, given its citizens can choose instead to be citizens of the Republic.williamglenn said:
Though I doubt the Republic would be willing to take it on when they realise how expensive it would be: that's about £3,000/year for every man, woman and child in Ireland.0 -
As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.
I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.0 -
I suspect they are or more generally in south-east England.Anazina said:
Let me guess, they are disproportionately located in That Londonanother_richard said:Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?
' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.
As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.
However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44125837
And places which do have large numbers will have the social inequality issues arising from these middle class have-nots together with increasing numbers of young people suffering from middle class regression.
It will help form a permanent electoral base for Corbynism.0 -
On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.
It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...0 -
The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.CD13 said:
As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.0 -
Big G is currently on a cruise with Mrs G.Dura_Ace said:As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.
I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.
Thankfully (for them), I believe their internet connection is limited.0 -
You mean Tim Farron?El_Capitano said:On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.
It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...0 -
Ended up discussing Trek vs UN/EU yesterday after a few glasses of wine with some friends. The conclusion is thus:
Cardassia = Nazi Germany
Klingon = WW2 Japan
Federation = UN/WTO
Borg = EU
Vulcan = Buddhism0 -
There are no signs that the average student is willing to alter their vote over the issue. Sure, most students aren't happy about Brexit, but the issue isn't one that dominates the thinking of them (or indeed any other major group of voters). FBPEers aren't representative of the great British population anymore than the Alt Right is.0
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But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.williamglenn said:
The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.CD13 said:
As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.
All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.
And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.0 -
Lewisham should remind us that Corbyn is as popular as ever in rentier gentile London.0
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"The expressed wishes of the British people". LOL.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 43, I agree. The only two explanations are that May is even more atrocious at politics and leadership than many thought, or, as you say, this is now intentionally winding down the clock in a bid to get a departure in name only result as the choice before Parliament will be leaving with no deal, or leaving on the terms the EU has determined.
And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.
I reminds me of that old quote: "The people have spoken but we don't know what they have said."
There are so many varieties of Brexit one might easily infer the softest of departures from a 52-48 result. Like all right-wing provincials, you simply hear what you want to hear.0 -
HYUFD believes that if you repeat a terminological inexactitude 1000 times it changes the rules of mathematics. Only 107 to go!MikeSmithson said:
Maths? SNP won 56 seats at GE2015 - went down to 35 at GE2018.HYUFD said:
They were told that the morning after Brexit, yet the SNP lost almost half their seats at the 2017 general election and the DUP has won most seats in both post Brexit NI electionswilliamglenn said:
DUP secured just 36% of vote in Northern Ireland at GE170 -
Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.another_richard said:
But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.williamglenn said:
The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.CD13 said:
As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.
All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.
And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.0 -
Every time I hear “the will of the British people” from some of the loons on here, I am reminded, unpleasantly, of Alex Salmond.Anazina said:
"The expressed wishes of the British people". LOL.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 43, I agree. The only two explanations are that May is even more atrocious at politics and leadership than many thought, or, as you say, this is now intentionally winding down the clock in a bid to get a departure in name only result as the choice before Parliament will be leaving with no deal, or leaving on the terms the EU has determined.
And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.
I reminds me of that old quote: "The people have spoken but we don't know what they have said."
There are so many varieties of Brexit one might easily infer the softest of departures from a 52-48 result. Like all right-wing provincials, you simply hear what you want to hear.0 -
Anyway, what choice would they have? Corbyn or the Tories. Both want Brexit.JSpring said:There are no signs that the average student is willing to alter their vote over the issue. Sure, most students aren't happy about Brexit, but the issue isn't one that dominates the thinking of them (or indeed any other major group of voters). FBPEers aren't representative of the great British population anymore than the Alt Right is.
I suppose some students would go Liberal, perhaps if the candidate was in with a chance in certain seats, but not many. There's still the tuition fee business (although for this newer generation of students, Clegg must seem ancient history from when they were about ten).0 -
Boris would probably not have lost the majority. The one thing we can be fairly confident about is that he is a far better campaigner than Theresa May. Ironically, of course, that is why we are in this mess. As for what has happened since, who knows? The really stupid, indeed unfathomable, decision of Theresa May's was to trigger Article 50 without, apparently, the faintest idea of where she wanted to go, let alone how to get there.Dura_Ace said:As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.
I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.0 -
Corbyn hasn't changed his view on the desirability of leaving the customs union. What he has done is to give a small amount of ground to those within Labour with whom he disagrees, for purely tactical parliamentary and party reasons.rkrkrk said:On topic - not clear where these voters would go.
A more left-wing Lib Dem party might have a chance of picking them up?
I disagree with Mike that Corbyn doesn't change his mind - this has already happened on the customs union - and it is certainly possible he might go further. He certainly isn't making clear, unambiguous statements like Theresa May - he 's leaving wriggle room.
Waiting until the govt has a plan on Brexit still seems a good strategy to me.
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Hard to believe that they thought that a murderous dictatorship might find the Libya route attractive.FF43 said:
The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?
It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.0 -
iirc from reading news magazines, old foreign policy hands, who have been around the block with NK, warned Trump officials that this would happen. They were ignored. I suppose the charitable view is their approach had been tried a hundred times and Trump likes to try new ways.Theuniondivvie said:
Hard to believe that they thought that a murderous dictatorship might find the Libya route attractive.FF43 said:
The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?
It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.0 -
Didn’t she trigger it because the Brexit loons and their outriders in the Mail etc were getting anxious that Brexit might not mean Brexit?DecrepitJohnL said:
Boris would probably not have lost the majority. The one thing we can be fairly confident about is that he is a far better campaigner than Theresa May. Ironically, of course, that is why we are in this mess. As for what has happened since, who knows? The really stupid, indeed unfathomable, decision of Theresa May's was to trigger Article 50 without, apparently, the faintest idea of where she wanted to go, let alone how to get there.Dura_Ace said:As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.
I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.
As I said, her incompetence stems from following a bunch of nutters who quite literally have no plan.0 -
Ha. Ok, let me rephrase that. A youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition and doesn't have any views that are clearly unpalatable to 90% of students...Gardenwalker said:
You mean Tim Farron?El_Capitano said:On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.
It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...0 -
We didn't get the punishment budget, or the 18% fall in house prices.Gardenwalker said:
Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.another_richard said:
But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.williamglenn said:
The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.CD13 said:
As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.
All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.
And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.0 -
Green? Stay at home?rottenborough said:
Anyway, what choice would they have? Corbyn or the Tories. Both want Brexit.
HoC research thinks youth turnout dropped by ~15 percentage points between 1997 and 2001.0 -
Time to bring back Lembit.El_Capitano said:On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.
It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...0 -
As a Leaver, I thought May losing her majority might be the end of a proper Brexit. But now, I think it might save the day. She is a complete coward when it comes to negotiating with the EU. I think if she had a majority she would just do the sell out and ram it down everyone's throat. There is no way that she would use a majority to perform a proper Brexit based on what she has been doing since the election.Gardenwalker said:
Didn’t she trigger it because the Brexit loons and their outriders in the Mail etc were getting anxious that Brexit might not mean Brexit?DecrepitJohnL said:
Boris would probably not have lost the majority. The one thing we can be fairly confident about is that he is a far better campaigner than Theresa May. Ironically, of course, that is why we are in this mess. As for what has happened since, who knows? The really stupid, indeed unfathomable, decision of Theresa May's was to trigger Article 50 without, apparently, the faintest idea of where she wanted to go, let alone how to get there.Dura_Ace said:As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.
I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.
As I said, her incompetence stems from following a bunch of nutters who quite literally have no plan.0 -
Since all polling shows that the English, Welsh and Scots (probably more complicated in NI) see Britishness as a subordinate identity to their Englishness, Welshness etc, constantly ramming the 'expressed wishes of the British people' down the throats of those who voted against the decision being imposed on them isn't going to be entirely persuasive.Anazina said:
"The expressed wishes of the British people". LOL.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 43, I agree. The only two explanations are that May is even more atrocious at politics and leadership than many thought, or, as you say, this is now intentionally winding down the clock in a bid to get a departure in name only result as the choice before Parliament will be leaving with no deal, or leaving on the terms the EU has determined.
And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.
I reminds me of that old quote: "The people have spoken but we don't know what they have said."
There are so many varieties of Brexit one might easily infer the softest of departures from a 52-48 result. Like all right-wing provincials, you simply hear what you want to hear.
0 -
Mr. Walker, how would you state the referendum result then?0
-
Neither did we Exercise A50 the day after the vote, as Corbyn and others wanted us to.Sean_F said:
We didn't get the punishment budget, or the 18% fall in house prices.Gardenwalker said:
Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.another_richard said:
But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.williamglenn said:
The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.CD13 said:
As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.
All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.
And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.
We’re drifting aimlessly into Brexit, blown by whichever wind blows hardest. Our relative economic decline is following suit.
One day we’ll wake up and wonder why we feel so poor abroad. Maybe we already do!0 -
The only wish that was definitively expressed by 34.5% of the British people was to leave the EU. All else is inference and psychodrama.Morris_Dancer said:And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.
0 -
Most people accept we are stuck with Brexit and in that sense want the government to get on with it but that should not be mistaken for general enthusiasm. Those that want everyone to STFU are generally Leavers who would like to close down any further discussion on the consequences of their decision. It won't happen.SquareRoot said:Most people just want the Govt to get on with Brexit and STFU with all the sniping.
I really see politicians now in a much worse light than I ever have done before.
I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence though. Mrs May believes Brexit is wrong but daren't say so because of the Moggies in the Tory Party, Corbyn believes Brexit is right but daren't say so because his party, particularly the younger ones, thinks Brexit is a disaster. I can't recall a time when neither of the 2 major parties represents half the country on the key issue of the day.
0 -
I would not use such pompous words to describe such a narrow majority on an issue so open to multiple interpretation as leaving the EU.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Walker, how would you state the referendum result then?
Such rhetoric is designed to close down opposition and avoid argument.0 -
I am sure this is correct. I think that this has been Olly Robbins plan all along - conspire with Barnier to force us to the cliff edge and then accept the backstop with basically nothing else agreed except that we have to pay the bill. May will lie through her teeth that it will not be needed because her 'latest' customs plan will work. And the moment the treaty is signed Barnier will sit back and reject every suggestion made by the UK Government and tell us that there is no alternative but the backstop.FF43 said:
The only rational explanation I have is that this is an exercise in distraction. The whole point of debating two non existent options at such painful length is to NOT make a decision, so the EU's draft withdrawal agreement goes through at the last minute, on the nod and without discussion. T That withdrawal agreement contains the Northern Ireland backstop that Theresa May says no British PM would ever sign up to.rottenborough said:
What sort of person starts a negotiation by conceding that if you can't agree, the other side gets exactly what they want? There is a special place in hell reserved for May and Robbins.0 -
They need something like Paddy Ashdown as he was 25 years ago. Unfortunately, they're stuck with the 12 MPs they've got to choose from, which makes it a difficult task to pick someone who:El_Capitano said:
Ha. Ok, let me rephrase that. A youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition and doesn't have any views that are clearly unpalatable to 90% of students...Gardenwalker said:
You mean Tim Farron?El_Capitano said:On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.
It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...
- inspires idealists;
- looks like someone capable of holding down at least a cabinet-level job;
- has energy and drive;
- can do humour and has a common touch in the media and on the doorstep;
- is capable of identifying the right niche issues to get traction on (there's no point being a me-too to whatever Labour's doing: they'd just be drowned out);
- can manage the party's organisation;
- has the right mix of collegiality and authority to lead the party's MPs.
That is a tough ask. but without it, the best that the Lib Dems can hope for is to be a localist collective, which inevitably falls flat whenever a sustained national spotlight is shone on them and their inherent weaknesses and contradictions are exposed. But the 'local bandwagon' strategy is too familiar and too much of a mantra for them to put aside, so they'll learn from none of the mistakes last time round - and they'll again be surprised and shocked next time a hung parliament destroys their reputation.0 -
The sort of person that says "no deal is better than a bad deal" and is cheered to the rafters by Brexiteers and their deluded accolytes...archer101au said:What sort of person starts a negotiation by conceding that if you can't agree, the other side gets exactly what they want?
0 -
I accept you can't perfectly divide credit between Tory Rebels or Labour opposition.Mortimer said:
Almost all of those issues you cite have been prevented by cooler heads in the Tory party...rkrkrk said:
What is a serious opposition? It should like?SouthamObserver said:
Having no serious opposition lets the Tories off the hook, but is hugely damaging to the country.
To my mind the Labour opposition has forced the Tories (admittedly in a weak position post GE) into a number of u-turns on universal credit, Brexit bill, NHS privatisations, capping housing benefit for social housing and supported accommodation, NIC for self-employed etc.
Labour's parliamentary tactics in getting Brexit information out have been quite clever also I think.
But exposing differences in the Tory ranks is part of the Labour strategy.
0 -
Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?0
-
Breitbart?Gardenwalker said:Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?
0 -
No, because the advantages from Brexit can only come when we actually leave and can make our own laws and trade agreements. That is why continuuty Remainers are trying to sabotage those possibilities.Gardenwalker said:Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?
0 -
Hahaha!rkrkrk said:
Breitbart?Gardenwalker said:Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?
0 -
As Lembit managed to lose a seat that had (almost) continuously been LibDem (or Liberal) for over a century, there really is no end to the misery he can inflict on the LibDems.Sean_F said:
Time to bring back Lembit.El_Capitano said:On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.
It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...
I remember posting here that Lembit was a poor match to the rural constituency & would lose it.
I recall OGH telling me the people of Montgomeryshire would be grateful for the wind farms in the constituency, and antifrank telling me that I was an urbanophobe.
Montgomeryshire is still drifting away from the LibDems, with a 5.5 % swing to the Tories in 2017. They now have a 9k majority & over 50 per cent of the vote.
I don’t see that constituency returning to the LibDems until all memory of Lembit has been forgotten.0 -
And yet we all know Remainers would have interpreted a Remain vote as one for further integration. Just look at how pro-EU people claimed Labour's election was democratic legitimacy for signing Lisbon.Gardenwalker said:
I would not use such pompous words to describe such a narrow majority on an issue so open to multiple interpretation as leaving the EU.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Walker, how would you state the referendum result then?
Such rhetoric is designed to close down opposition and avoid argument.0 -
Or the refugee camps in Kent.Sean_F said:
We didn't get the punishment budget, or the 18% fall in house prices.Gardenwalker said:
Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.another_richard said:
But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.williamglenn said:
The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.CD13 said:
As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.
All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.
And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.0 -
On the day Sam Allardyce could have been naming his England World Cup squad he’s sacked by Everton.0
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Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.Gardenwalker said:Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?
"“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”0 -
Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.
Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.
Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.0 -
Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase - per Cameron’s negotiation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.
Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.
Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.
This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
It’s the phrenology de nos jours.0 -
Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.Gardenwalker said:
Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.
Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.
Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.
This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.
0 -
Haha. That paragraph of PR waffle is so incredibly tortured. One can hear Mr Dyson insisting a link to Brexit be made in the face of all logic and grammar.Richard_Tyndall said:
Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.Gardenwalker said:Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?
"“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”0 -
0
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Mr. Walker, the Lords are claiming a vote to leave the EU was a vote to have the EU dictate our trade policy. I suspect you're being optimistic at best.
Mr. Mortimer, that sounds as stupid as the EU #VATmess which shafted a load of small and micro-businesses whilst helping Amazon et al., even though the policy's overt objective was to get more tax from Amazon et al.0 -
All future police recruits in England and Wales will have to have a degree.
A really dumb idea even if most at the moment already do.0 -
Yep. Sounds like bullshit.Mortimer said:
Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.Gardenwalker said:
Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.
Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.
Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.
This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.
No one ever said the EU was run by philosopher-kings.
How is the lobbying going to prevent it?0 -
Mr. One, aye, bloody stupid. But then, the police apparently think the English flag is imperialistic, and that investigating widespread child abuse might be a bad idea as it could be 'culturally insensitive'. They're working damned hard to lose as much public support as possible.0
-
You're really not helping yourself by using such a daft statistic. What are you suggesting? That the only valid polls are those in which more than 50% of the population back one side or another? Give a single example of that in history? Indeed, how many referendums or elections have there been where even 50%+ of the *electorate* has backed one side or another?Dura_Ace said:
The only wish that was definitively expressed by 34.5% of the British people was to leave the EU. All else is inference and psychodrama.Morris_Dancer said:And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.
0 -
Perhaps not - but those on the Leave side would certainly have been making the case, based on the support of a large minority of voters, for a strong implementation of Cameron's deal, and common cause with the more sceptical EU members.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.
Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.
Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not...
And rightly so.
Your point seems rather a confused one.0 -
¡No pasarán!Theuniondivvie said:Stick it up your PP Rajoy.
https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/9966751490836684810 -
The referendum turnout was so high that more people voted for Brexit than anything else in British history. People dismissing its democratic legitimacy just show they don't appreciate democracy very much.david_herdson said:
You're really not helping yourself by using such a daft statistic. What are you suggesting? That the only valid polls are those in which more than 50% of the population back one side or another? Give a single example of that in history? Indeed, how many referendums or elections have there been where even 50%+ of the *electorate* has backed one side or another?Dura_Ace said:
The only wish that was definitively expressed by 34.5% of the British people was to leave the EU. All else is inference and psychodrama.Morris_Dancer said:And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.
But then we know that, given they didn't give a damn about the shenanigans over Lisbon, in the UK, Holland or France. Or, for that matter, the EU's change of leadership in Italy and Greece.0 -
Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?
According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY0 -
I think that the police advice on waving the English flag relates to travelling fans at the World Cup getting drunk and noisy in public. Sounds sensible advice to me! I shall be waving my EU flag at the SF though.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. One, aye, bloody stupid. But then, the police apparently think the English flag is imperialistic, and that investigating widespread child abuse might be a bad idea as it could be 'culturally insensitive'. They're working damned hard to lose as much public support as possible.
0 -
Grade A goalpost moving there!Gardenwalker said:
Haha. That paragraph of PR waffle is so incredibly tortured. One can hear Mr Dyson insisting a link to Brexit be made in the face of all logic and grammar.Richard_Tyndall said:
Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.Gardenwalker said:Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?
"“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”0 -
Perhaps you should keep your personal sexual fantasies to yourself.Dura_Ace said:As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.
I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.0 -
Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.Gardenwalker said:Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?
According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY0 -
That's a good summary of the required qualities for a Lib Dem leader, and obviously none of the 12 fulfil all of them - some more than others.david_herdson said:
They need something like Paddy Ashdown as he was 25 years ago. Unfortunately, they're stuck with the 12 MPs they've got to choose from, which makes it a difficult task to pick someone who:El_Capitano said:
Ha. Ok, let me rephrase that. A youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition and doesn't have any views that are clearly unpalatable to 90% of students...Gardenwalker said:
You mean Tim Farron?El_Capitano said:On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.
It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...
- inspires idealists;
- looks like someone capable of holding down at least a cabinet-level job;
- has energy and drive;
- can do humour and has a common touch in the media and on the doorstep;
- is capable of identifying the right niche issues to get traction on (there's no point being a me-too to whatever Labour's doing: they'd just be drowned out);
- can manage the party's organisation;
- has the right mix of collegiality and authority to lead the party's MPs.
That is a tough ask. but without it, the best that the Lib Dems can hope for is to be a localist collective, which inevitably falls flat whenever a sustained national spotlight is shone on them and their inherent weaknesses and contradictions are exposed. But the 'local bandwagon' strategy is too familiar and too much of a mantra for them to put aside, so they'll learn from none of the mistakes last time round - and they'll again be surprised and shocked next time a hung parliament destroys their reputation.
But I wouldn't be so pessimistic about their future chances. It's an interesting thought experiment to wonder about what would have happened in 2010 were the much-missed Charles Kennedy still leading the party (and not an alcoholic, obviously) - he was, of course, the one MP who voted against the coalition. Today, I tend to think they need a new Kennedy, not a new Ashdown.0 -
Well, this is immensely reassuring:
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/996682922395652097?s=210 -
Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.Foxy said:
Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.Gardenwalker said:Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?
According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY
The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.0 -
Presumably we will have to shadow such rules as part of Max Fac as part of Brexit, with no longer any say over the rules.Mortimer said:
Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.Gardenwalker said:
Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.
Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.
Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.
This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.
Not something that I will lose sleep over though.0 -
Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.Elliot said:
Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.Foxy said:
Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.Gardenwalker said:Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?
According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY0 -
You’re right. We don’t have sky high property costs in London at all.Elliot said:
Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.Foxy said:
Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.Gardenwalker said:Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?
According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY
The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.0 -
Corbyn won't suffer from his position of not being a fan of the EU, unlike the cult members. Like Trump, he is lucky that people seems to assign their views as his (see polling where just as many thought he was massively pro-EU as massively anti-EU).
A bet a load of youngsters still think that Jezza will pay off all their student debt if he gets in.0 -
New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.Elliot said:
Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.Foxy said:
Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.Gardenwalker said:Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?
According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY
The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.
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So nothing to do with the Single Market then as you previously claimed. Unless of course the US has joined the SM and we didn't notice.Foxy said:
Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.Elliot said:
Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.Foxy said:
Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.Gardenwalker said:Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?
According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY0
