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Comments
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Evening Malc - would I get in freemalcolmg said:
Nigel, I will be sure to give you a large discount as you will only need minimal teaching.Nigelb said:
I’m looking forward to the opening of malc’s finishing school for young gentlemen....malcolmg said:
He is an arse at best, needs to learn some social skills....TheScreamingEagles said:
In which universe is Justin a Tory?malcolmg said:FPT
justin124 said:
» show previous quotes
I don't bet but I do not recall your prediction of 21 SNP losses in 2017.
LOL, I offer a bet and the snowflake Tory hurls an insult. You cretinous cowardly half-witted dullard , go F**** yourself0 -
That was more than a bit of a disaster, wasn't it? Who's in charge of those lights?TheScreamingEagles said:Oh no Kimi/Ferrari.
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I fully agree - with every paragraph, as it turns out.stodge said:
Apologies for the snip, Andy, and thanks for an excellent and coherent contribution.
I think even if we had a proportional system we'd have a recognisable centre-right bloc and a recognisable centre-left bloc of parties. There would be smaller parties outside the blocs - some would join one bloc or another periodically and others would always sit beyond the two blocs.
The core task for any new party is, as you say, to define what it is, what it stands for. In doing so, it will automatically lose a swathe of the electorate who will simply not agree with it. The lazier commentators will try and pigeon hole it in terms of "left" and "right" but hopefully it will be beyond that and be its own thing. In the same way seeing everything through the prism of A50 and EU withdrawal doesn't help.
Trying to come up with solutions to the problems of the 2020s and beyond is a real challenge - we've scarcely got to grips with the big issues (housing, demographics) and bigger ones (Artificial Intelligence) are looming. The parties that invest time and effort in thinking now will reap the reward in the longer term.
Ostensibly, the centre and centre-left has failed to respond intellectually to the events of 2008 when a decade of cheap food, cheap fuel, cheap money and rising asset values came to a violent end on their watch. Was it their fault ? To a point, yes, but the economic battlefield was abandoned to the extremes be it austerity or reckless borrowing. Neither of these work, we all know that, but plotting a clear economic path in the future is and remains a huge series of questions.
A proportional system would arguably outsource the choice of what values within each bloc are most valued at any given time by the public, which could help matters to a great degree - both for the public and, in the end, for the leaders of those blocs. The ability to start (and abandon) new parties representing other views would be greater as well.
No party has presented (loudly, at any rate) solutions to the failures of the last decade. One of the big Two is continuing (more or less) with the previous paradigm, despite the disquiet of many; the other is returning to formerly discredited and failed solutions out of ideological preference. This leads anyone who wants a change, but not those reheated failures, to bang their heads on the table.
The one slightly bright spark on the horizon is that most of the major politicians are finally recognising we need a new solution in the housing area - belatedly realising we need more built and at least flushing out the issues with our current planning system.0 -
Evidently an AI.ydoethur said:
That was more than a bit of a disaster, wasn't it? Who's in charge of those lights?TheScreamingEagles said:Oh no Kimi/Ferrari.
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Surely Malc's finishing school will follow the principle of Alex Salmond's "rocks will melt in the Sun" before tuition fees are introduced.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Evening Malc - would I get in freemalcolmg said:
Nigel, I will be sure to give you a large discount as you will only need minimal teaching.Nigelb said:
I’m looking forward to the opening of malc’s finishing school for young gentlemen....malcolmg said:
He is an arse at best, needs to learn some social skills....TheScreamingEagles said:
In which universe is Justin a Tory?malcolmg said:FPT
justin124 said:
» show previous quotes
I don't bet but I do not recall your prediction of 21 SNP losses in 2017.
LOL, I offer a bet and the snowflake Tory hurls an insult. You cretinous cowardly half-witted dullard , go F**** yourself
Everyone educated in Scotland and the rest of the EU * will get free tuition.
(* except England, Wales & NI.)0 -
Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.0
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Unfortunately, no-one's listening.slade said:
In fact there is quite a lot of new thinking going on in the Lib Dems at the moment. There was a pamphlet published recently by Howarth and Greaves which attempts to set out the agenda.Sandpit said:
They need fresh ideas as well as the fresh face. Their only policy now seems to be opposing Brexit, and that will be redundant a year from now.GIN1138 said:
The Lib Dems arguably had the best economic manifesto last time around in terms of addressing the issues, being realistic and funded, and minimising the harm to the poorest/ being most progressive without relying on "squeezing the rich" somehow, but who was listening?
The media view politics through the Brexit prism right now, and there are those in the Lib Dems who'll pander to that (as at least it gets visibility), which reinforces the "Lib Dems only care about Brexit" meme.0 -
Surely you mean an A not very I?JosiasJessop said:
Evidently an AI.ydoethur said:
That was more than a bit of a disaster, wasn't it? Who's in charge of those lights?TheScreamingEagles said:Oh no Kimi/Ferrari.
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At a rally outside Labour HQ's Maureen Lipman accuses Corbyn as being malign and demanding he steps aside.
Not a good look - this is a real problem for the whole labour party0 -
OK, he’s a bit of a whinger.
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They told him to do 1.34s. What more does he want, a stopwatch?Nigelb said:
To be fair, with a gap of over 10seconds, you are entirely dependent on information from the pit wall, and Mercedes aren’t doing a great job - not much hard info, and quite a lot of waffle.ydoethur said:Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.
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I think Bottas has got this, even if Vettel doesn't have a burst tyre or pit.0
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As they clearly can’t hear what he’s saying, regular updates (target changes lap to lap).ydoethur said:
They told him to do 1.34s. What more does he want, a stopwatch?Nigelb said:
To be fair, with a gap of over 10seconds, you are entirely dependent on information from the pit wall, and Mercedes aren’t doing a great job - not much hard info, and quite a lot of waffle.ydoethur said:Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.
In any event, unless Vettel’s tyres die completely, it’s irrelevant at this point.
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Only three laps - it’s far from certain.Nigelb said:
As they clearly can’t hear what he’s saying, regular updates (target changes lap to lap).ydoethur said:
They told him to do 1.34s. What more does he want, a stopwatch?Nigelb said:
To be fair, with a gap of over 10seconds, you are entirely dependent on information from the pit wall, and Mercedes aren’t doing a great job - not much hard info, and quite a lot of waffle.ydoethur said:Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.
In any event, unless Vettel’s tyres die completely, it’s irrelevant at this point.
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Hungary, poll from today:
Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%
Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.0 -
Ferrari really got out-thought by Mercedes, didn't they? And that applies even if Vettel can somehow hang on.0
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Hungary (for anyone following!)
https://www.mediaklikk.hu/m1-elo/ (TV)
http://www.valasztas.hu/dyn/pv18/szavossz/hu/start.html (official results, but no English option visible
https://24.hu/
https://index.hu/
https://dailynewshungary.com/
Thanks & best wishes to all - and Alastair thanks for the recent article on Hungary.
Cheers
DC
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Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:
VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
GL-G/EFA: 11%
FvD-*: 10% (-1)
CDA-EPP: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
D66-ALDE: 9%
PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
50+-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 4%
DENK-*: 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%
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Well, that was an interesting finish to make up for what was mostly a procession.0
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Good effort from Vettel.
A better overtaker than Bottas would have had him.0 -
The pollster reckons that's just 124 seats. Mine is a UNS, theirs clearly not.TheWhiteRabbit said:Hungary, poll from today:
Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%
Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.0 -
Thanks DC as alwaysDoubleCarpet said:Hungary (for anyone following!)
https://www.mediaklikk.hu/m1-elo/ (TV)
http://www.valasztas.hu/dyn/pv18/szavossz/hu/start.html (official results, but no English option visible
https://24.hu/
https://index.hu/
https://dailynewshungary.com/
Thanks & best wishes to all - and Alastair thanks for the recent article on Hungary.
Cheers
DC0 -
Well done to Torro Rosso and Honda. It's a long time since I've congratulated Honda ... 0
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And people accuse our system of being disproportionate!TheWhiteRabbit said:Hungary, poll from today:
Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%
Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.0 -
I think UNS accentuates that, but they'd stil be heading for approx 66% of seatsydoethur said:
And people accuse our system of being disproportionate!TheWhiteRabbit said:Hungary, poll from today:
Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%
Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.0 -
The LDs have 85% of seats on Sutton council with 36% of the vote. Just an example.ydoethur said:
And people accuse our system of being disproportionate!TheWhiteRabbit said:Hungary, poll from today:
Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%
Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.
http://www.andrewteale.me.uk/leap/results/2014/31/0 -
a) you are a doity perv who has been surfing rudy sites you really shouldn't haveSean_F said:
Why am I getting an advert for "Mature Women Who Always Say Yes" when I log in?
OR
b) you spend too long on PB, a site habituated by people who are older and wealthier than average and the algorithm thought you might be in need of a special cuddle by people who are willing to overlook your saggy bits in favor of a bulging wallet.
OR
c) your son has been using the laptop and it's really time you had that special talk with him.
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OK, fair answer.AndyJS said:
The LDs have 85% of seats on Sutton council with 36% of the vote. Just an example.ydoethur said:
And people accuse our system of being disproportionate!TheWhiteRabbit said:Hungary, poll from today:
Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%
Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.
http://www.andrewteale.me.uk/leap/results/2014/31/
We could also mention Manchester - Labour get 60-odd per cent of the vote, near as dammit 100% of the seats.0 -
As ever @DoubleCarpet, thank you for the focussed information. You are a good person.DoubleCarpet said:Hungary (for anyone following!)
https://www.mediaklikk.hu/m1-elo/ (TV)
http://www.valasztas.hu/dyn/pv18/szavossz/hu/start.html (official results, but no English option visible
https://24.hu/
https://index.hu/
https://dailynewshungary.com/
Thanks & best wishes to all - and Alastair thanks for the recent article on Hungary.
Cheers
DC
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Is it because Jezza didn't even get an ology....Big_G_NorthWales said:At a rally outside Labour HQ's Maureen Lipman accuses Corbyn as being malign and demanding he steps aside.
Not a good look - this is a real problem for the whole labour party
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK5-2fPyCjA0 -
Unfortunately that is probably true. The debate is within the party at the moment and will probably be quite bloody. But the key themes are likely to centre around individual rights and freedoms, democratic participation, economic and social justice, internationalism, and institutional reform. The pamphlet can be downloaded at liberatormagazine.org.uk.Andy_Cooke said:
Unfortunately, no-one's listening.slade said:
In fact there is quite a lot of new thinking going on in the Lib Dems at the moment. There was a pamphlet published recently by Howarth and Greaves which attempts to set out the agenda.Sandpit said:
They need fresh ideas as well as the fresh face. Their only policy now seems to be opposing Brexit, and that will be redundant a year from now.GIN1138 said:
The Lib Dems arguably had the best economic manifesto last time around in terms of addressing the issues, being realistic and funded, and minimising the harm to the poorest/ being most progressive without relying on "squeezing the rich" somehow, but who was listening?
The media view politics through the Brexit prism right now, and there are those in the Lib Dems who'll pander to that (as at least it gets visibility), which reinforces the "Lib Dems only care about Brexit" meme.0 -
My god - how does government come from such chaos?TheWhiteRabbit said:Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:
VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
GL-G/EFA: 11%
FvD-*: 10% (-1)
CDA-EPP: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
D66-ALDE: 9%
PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
50+-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 4%
DENK-*: 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%0 -
I bet the tv debates are fun!kle4 said:
My god - how does government come from such chaos?TheWhiteRabbit said:Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:
VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
GL-G/EFA: 11%
FvD-*: 10% (-1)
CDA-EPP: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
D66-ALDE: 9%
PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
50+-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 4%
DENK-*: 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%0 -
Indeed. That was a good race.JosiasJessop said:Well done to Torro Rosso and Honda. It's a long time since I've congratulated Honda ...
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Turnout up about 8pp since 2014. Not clear who that helps. Turnout still highest in urban (lefty) areas, but up more in rural (righty) areas.0
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What idiot did not consider that Hungarian parliamentary elections would not be of interest to the english speaking world? Hopefully they sort that out in time for the Hungarian local elections.DoubleCarpet said:
http://www.valasztas.hu/dyn/pv18/szavossz/hu/start.html (official results, but no English option visible
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Telling people to download a pamphlet isn’t a substitute for getting people all over the media to articulate the party’s vision beyond Brexit.slade said:
Unfortunately that is probably true. The debate is within the party at the moment and will probably be quite bloody. But the key themes are likely to centre around individual rights and freedoms, democratic participation, economic and social justice, internationalism, and institutional reform. The pamphlet can be downloaded at liberatormagazine.org.uk.Andy_Cooke said:
Unfortunately, no-one's listening.slade said:
In fact there is quite a lot of new thinking going on in the Lib Dems at the moment. There was a pamphlet published recently by Howarth and Greaves which attempts to set out the agenda.Sandpit said:
They need fresh ideas as well as the fresh face. Their only policy now seems to be opposing Brexit, and that will be redundant a year from now.GIN1138 said:
The Lib Dems arguably had the best economic manifesto last time around in terms of addressing the issues, being realistic and funded, and minimising the harm to the poorest/ being most progressive without relying on "squeezing the rich" somehow, but who was listening?
The media view politics through the Brexit prism right now, and there are those in the Lib Dems who'll pander to that (as at least it gets visibility), which reinforces the "Lib Dems only care about Brexit" meme.0 -
They argue for a bit, form a coalition, get some stuff done, then have another election. They seem to manage.kle4 said:
My god - how does government come from such chaos?TheWhiteRabbit said:Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:
VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
GL-G/EFA: 11%
FvD-*: 10% (-1)
CDA-EPP: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
D66-ALDE: 9%
PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
50+-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 4%
DENK-*: 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%0 -
Remember, there's no government like no government.viewcode said:
They argue for a bit, form a coalition, get some stuff done, then have another election. They seem to manage.kle4 said:
My god - how does government come from such chaos?TheWhiteRabbit said:Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:
VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
GL-G/EFA: 11%
FvD-*: 10% (-1)
CDA-EPP: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
D66-ALDE: 9%
PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
50+-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 4%
DENK-*: 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%0 -
It's the same reaction we've seen even from the sensible, in that because sometimes people cover their fear with bravado and and dismissal, if you see that dismissal it must mean panic. I don't think they are. Frankly I don't know for certain Labour would be hardest hit by a successful new party.The_Apocalypse said:
Panic and fury? This is a reach from Hodges.rottenborough said:0 -
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An interesting post, thank you.Andy_Cooke said:
That's no formula for any party, and it's a misdiagnosis anyway. It's just disliking being given only two choices, (or only one choice if you decide the other is unacceptable). This leads to either reluctant voting for something you don't really want, or weighing up two things you dislike to choose which one you least despise.
Unsurprisingly, this leads to people believing neither of those two choices actually represent them, and leads to disillusionment with politics and politicians and, occasionally, a call for an alternative. From about 1980 to 2010, the Lib Dems harnessed that discontent, but lost it when they accepted some real power.
People even go further and diagnose the political system, which promotes only two choices.
I think it's further than that. There are two views on democratic government: "adversarial" and "consensual", and those who hold either view often find the other completely foreign to their thinking.
"Adversarial" is majoritarian: run an election, whichever choice gets more votes than any other, "wins", and puts its views into practice untramelled by anyone else. Everyone who loses has to suck it up; they'll get another chance soon enough. As it's rare for any choice to get a proper majority (over 50% of votes), even with the polarisation you see in majoritarian electoral systems, most people feel unrepresented to a significant degree - even many of those who voted for "the winner", as they feel almost coerced into voting for a less-bad choice. Advocates say "what you see is what you get" and feel it's faster to react. And as party members tend to have the strongest ideological support for any party, they'll least like the idea of compromising.
"Consensual" is proportional: run an election, and build a government from compromise between the views in an attempt to represent the views of as many as possible. Doesn't always work that way, but does tend to end up with people feeling better represented. Advocates point out that people can vote more "honestly" for their own views, and governments represent more of the population and do so better. On the other hand, you acn argue that no-one gets exactly what they voted for (a counter to that is that the Government's supposed to represent everyone, not just those who voted for Party X).
You can get that wider choice in the latter forms of Government, and I think that wider choice is what's being wanted. It can't be provided by any one party, whether a new one, the Lib Dems, or the existing Big Two.
Without a different electoral system and the associated view becoming embedded, this will continue to happen, and we'll continue to get resentment and polarisation.0 -
Oh I know it works, but it strikes me that I'm in favour of coalitions generally, and I still take a step back in shock when I see the most popular party can only get 17%viewcode said:
They argue for a bit, form a coalition, get some stuff done, then have another election. They seem to manage.kle4 said:
My god - how does government come from such chaos?TheWhiteRabbit said:Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:
VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
GL-G/EFA: 11%
FvD-*: 10% (-1)
CDA-EPP: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
D66-ALDE: 9%
PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
50+-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 4%
DENK-*: 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%
Plus all the acronyms boggle my little brain.0 -
I read that as "...and demanding he steps outside". Then I had an image of Maureen & Corbyn having a scrap.Big_G_NorthWales said:At a rally outside Labour HQ's Maureen Lipman accuses Corbyn as being malign and demanding he steps aside.
Pause.
OK, I'd pay to see that.
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The first electoral test for a party called Momentum*
*about all they have in common
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A rising star in the Conservative Party has apologised after she admitted she hacked a Labour MP's website and altered its content.
Kemi Badenoch, the hotly tipped MP for Saffron Walden, made the confession in a video obtained by The Mail On Sunday.
Asked what is the naughtiest she's ever done, the 38-year-old replied: "About 10 years ago I hacked into a Labour MP's website and I changed all the stuff in there to say nice things about Tories."
https://news.sky.com/story/tory-vice-chair-kemi-badenoch-admits-hacking-labour-mps-website-113230560 -
Isn't that where most Labour Leavers are?SandyRentool said:
Looks like we need a Fascist Party to represent these poor souls.The_Apocalypse said:0 -
Well the word did famously start out as an insult after all.malcolmg said:
PS: I could not think of a bigger insult than ToryTheScreamingEagles said:
In which universe is Justin a Tory?malcolmg said:FPT
justin124 said:
» show previous quotes
I don't bet but I do not recall your prediction of 21 SNP losses in 2017.
LOL, I offer a bet and the snowflake Tory hurls an insult. You cretinous cowardly half-witted dullard , go F**** yourself0 -
In Labour mythology the SDP was a body blow to the party, that let Thatcher rule FOREVER!!!!! - if only that hadn't happened etc etc....kle4 said:
It's the same reaction we've seen even from the sensible, in that because sometimes people cover their fear with bravado and and dismissal, if you see that dismissal it must mean panic. I don't think they are. Frankly I don't know for certain Labour would be hardest hit by a successful new party.The_Apocalypse said:
Panic and fury? This is a reach from Hodges.rottenborough said:0 -
Although I differ from him politically, ed Miliabnd came across as a generally decent guy (as do many politicians outside of politics). His conscience must be really squirming over the way he mucked things up.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
http s://twitter.com/alextomo/status/9830038108083855360 -
Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years?TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536 0 -
I think Gasly deserves a lot of the credit. Hartley was down in 14th in the same car.Sandpit said:
Indeed. That was a good race.JosiasJessop said:Well done to Torro Rosso and Honda. It's a long time since I've congratulated Honda ...
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Remember that 90% of politicians are actually good mates when the cameras are not around. Then factor in, that what you are seeing is the parts that make up big parties in other countries - think externalising the party coalition building.kle4 said:
My god - how does government come from such chaos?TheWhiteRabbit said:Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:
VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
GL-G/EFA: 11%
FvD-*: 10% (-1)
CDA-EPP: 10%
SP-LEFT: 9%
D66-ALDE: 9%
PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
PvdD-LEFT: 5%
50+-*: 5%
CU-ECR: 4%
DENK-*: 3%
SGP-ECR: 2%0 -
Sadly so, time for a co-ordinated international action in Syria now.GIN1138 said:
Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years?TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536
I can’t imagine Trump’s new security advisor John Bolton being too shy about what’s required.0 -
No prizes for guessing why.GIN1138 said:
Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years?TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536
Bit like how Russia started murdering dissidents/exiles abroad in the 1920s and carried on till the present day.... never suffered a reaction beyond a few diplomats getting kicked out and some bad press - why would they think they shouldn't do it now?0 -
He’s still an MP, he has a chance to redeem himself by speaking out now.JosiasJessop said:
Although I differ from him politically, ed Miliabnd came across as a generally decent guy (as do many politicians outside of politics). His conscience must be really squirming over the way he mucked things up.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
http s://twitter.com/alextomo/status/9830038108083855360 -
I think Bolton has a lot to do with backing the UK v Russia and all the expulsions together with the action against Putin's croniesSandpit said:
Sadly so, time for a co-ordinated international action in Syria now.GIN1138 said:
Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years?TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536
I can’t imagine Trump’s new security advisor John Bolton being too shy about what’s required.0 -
It's too late. The Russians, Iran and Assad have won (in that order). The people, and especially the Kurds, have lost. The UN cannot do anything to bring Assad to book, and he's free to settle a lot of scores.Sandpit said:
Sadly so, time for a co-ordinated international action in Syria now.GIN1138 said:
Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years?TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536
(Snip)
(That's not to say that the fighting is over; it isn't. Just that it's hard to see a way that evil triumvirate can lose. The question then becomes how much of his country Assad wants to regain full control of, both from his enemies and his helpers.)
There was a time for proper action, and that was long ago.0 -
Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.0
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30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
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If I may be as bold: I warned you, you Assad-backing f**kers. I warned you that if we let Assad get away with using these weapons, that the conventions were not worth the paper they were written on, and we were all at risk. And so, sadly, it has come to pass.Malmesbury said:
No prizes for guessing why.GIN1138 said:
Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years?TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536
(Snip)0 -
4m
Hungary: Biggest private television, RTL KLUB discloses voice recording about vote buying and transport of voters by Orban's government party Fidesz (EPP) in the city of Pécs, South West Hungary. #Valasztas2018 #HungaryElection2018
Results not expected yet as many voters are still in queues...0 -
If that story is true, they'll not only be in queues, some at least will be seeking answers.TheWhiteRabbit said:4m
Hungary: Biggest private television, RTL KLUB discloses voice recording about vote buying and transport of voters by Orban's government party Fidesz (EPP) in the city of Pécs, South West Hungary. #Valasztas2018 #HungaryElection2018
Results not expected yet as many voters are still in queues...0 -
Jim Murphy explained why.stodge said:
30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
Ed Miliband told Dave he'd back the motion.
Then pretty much at the last moment he stabbed Cameron in the back like he did his brother.
Dave wasn't expecting to have to work his rebels.
Ed played student politics, as the aforementioned Mr Murphy put it
'Labour voted against the Government while not expecting to win.'
In terms of shits, Ed Miliband is up there with Mark Reckless.0 -
I could be wrong, but it wasn't it a free vote (or at least, not heavily whipped) for Coalition MPs, while Labour were whipped to oppose it?stodge said:
30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
I thought that was the key difference.0 -
Obama needed the Loto in the U K ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Jim Murphy explained why.stodge said:
30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
Ed Miliband told Dave he'd back the motion.
Then pretty much at the last moment he stabbed Cameron in the back like he did his brother.
Dave wasn't expecting to have to work his rebels.
Ed played student politics, as the aforementioned Mr Murphy put it
'Labour voted against the Government while not expecting to win.'
In terms of shits, Ed Miliband is up there with Mark Reckless.0 -
Yes, because of the way Congress works when it comes to war.Yorkcity said:
Obama needed the Loto in the U K ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Jim Murphy explained why.stodge said:
30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
Ed Miliband told Dave he'd back the motion.
Then pretty much at the last moment he stabbed Cameron in the back like he did his brother.
Dave wasn't expecting to have to work his rebels.
Ed played student politics, as the aforementioned Mr Murphy put it
'Labour voted against the Government while not expecting to win.'
In terms of shits, Ed Miliband is up there with Mark Reckless.
David Petraeus said the vote changed the dynamic in America.0 -
Did I miss the part where Soros became some sort of divine being? It is a very strange form of antisemticism to focus so much on one guy0
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Don't divert blame. Ask yourself how your party - a party with a long and distinguished history - ended up backing a mass-murdering tyrant and endorsing the use of chemical weapons. for that is exactly what Labour did in that vote.stodge said:
30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
You f**kers.
I can understand not wanting blood on your hands, especially after Iraq. But what we saw over Syria, and since with MH17 and now Salisbury, are attempts to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, to blame everyone else - including ourselves - rather than the real culprits.
In the process, you have blood on your hands. Look at the pictures and weep over what you've done, you fools.
You shi**ing tragicomic fools.0 -
Other dirty tricks are obviously Fidesz' doing. For example some of the propoganda put out in the name of the state.ydoethur said:
If that story is true, they'll not only be in queues, some at least will be seeking answers.TheWhiteRabbit said:4m
Hungary: Biggest private television, RTL KLUB discloses voice recording about vote buying and transport of voters by Orban's government party Fidesz (EPP) in the city of Pécs, South West Hungary. #Valasztas2018 #HungaryElection2018
Results not expected yet as many voters are still in queues...0 -
Both of which are simple statements of fact. Why would they be in any way controversial?Yorkcity said:
She said she was a Blairite and Jez was lying about his seat on the train .dyingswan said:Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.
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To be honest TSe , Obama if he wanted could have acted.The current president has , without the need of UK agreement.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes, because of the way Congress works when it comes to war.Yorkcity said:
Obama needed the Loto in the U K ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Jim Murphy explained why.stodge said:
30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
Ed Miliband told Dave he'd back the motion.
Then pretty much at the last moment he stabbed Cameron in the back like he did his brother.
Dave wasn't expecting to have to work his rebels.
Ed played student politics, as the aforementioned Mr Murphy put it
'Labour voted against the Government while not expecting to win.'
In terms of shits, Ed Miliband is up there with Mark Reckless.
David Petraeus said the vote changed the dynamic in America.0 -
There is a co-ordinated international action in Syria now. The nations in question are Russia, Syria, Iran & Iraq. We had an opportunity to join in but we had a debate, bottled it, and thought spending decades navel-gazing on Brexit was better than exerting power on the international stage.Sandpit said:Sadly so, time for a co-ordinated international action in Syria now. (Snip)
0 -
Didn't Maureen Lipman abandon Labour several years ago?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11196959/Maureen-Lipman-abandons-Ed-Miliband-over-Israel.html0 -
Did I say they was ? The train issue was disputed .ydoethur said:
Both of which are simple statements of fact. Why would they be in any way controversial?Yorkcity said:
She said she was a Blairite and Jez was lying about his seat on the train .dyingswan said:Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.
0 -
I wasn't aware I was a member of the Labour Party but then accuracy and common sense aren't high on your list of priorities either.JosiasJessop said:
Don't divert blame. Ask yourself how your party - a party with a long and distinguished history - ended up backing a mass-murdering tyrant and endorsing the use of chemical weapons. for that is exactly what Labour did in that vote.
You f**kers.
I can understand not wanting blood on your hands, especially after Iraq. But what we saw over Syria, and since with MH17 and now Salisbury, are attempts to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, to blame everyone else - including ourselves - rather than the real culprits.
In the process, you have blood on your hands. Look at the pictures and weep over what you've done, you fools.
You shi**ing tragicomic fools.
To re-iterate 30 Conservatives and LD MPs joined Labour in the No lobby - my point is TSE's criticism of Ed M on this was unfair - there's much more blame to throw around.
We chose not to intervene in Syria because we chose to intervene in Iraq and in 2013, at that time, the mood was against intervening in what seemed like other people's internal conflicts.
Arguably it was the biggest foreign policy surrender since Munich but that's not how it was seen at the time by many.0 -
Europe Elects @EuropeElects
1m
Hungary: Taktikaiszavazas seat estimation (no exit poll):
Fidesz/KDNP-EPP: 103
Jobbik-NI: 42
MSZP/P-S&D/G/EFA: 27
DK-S&D: 15
LMP-G/EFA: 8
Independent: 2
Együtt-*: 2
would imply a sub 40% share for Fidesz... maybe that's why the dirty tricks0 -
To be fair, Stodge is a Lib Dem.JosiasJessop said:
Don't divert blame. Ask yourself how your party - a party with a long and distinguished history - ended up backing a mass-murdering tyrant and endorsing the use of chemical weapons. for that is exactly what Labour did in that vote.stodge said:
30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
You f**kers.
I can understand not wanting blood on your hands, especially after Iraq. But what we saw over Syria, and since with MH17 and now Salisbury, are attempts to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, to blame everyone else - including ourselves - rather than the real culprits.
In the process, you have blood on your hands. Look at the pictures and weep over what you've done, you fools.
You shi**ing tragicomic fools.
I agree the equivocation in both the UK and US back in 2013 effectively re-legitimised the use of chemical weapons by calculating despots. It will now be far harder to contain than it would have been had we been decisive back then.
Non-intervention eventually carries an even heavier price tag than intervention.0 -
I'd love to see his workings, because my investigations show this is a *very* complex area.AndyJS said:"Immigration has put up house prices by 20% over the past 25 years and Britain’s post-Brexit border rules must take account of demand for affordable homes, the new housing minister has declared."
"Housing Minister Dominic Raab told The Sunday Times that: “Based on the ONS data, the advice to me from the department is that in the last 25 years we have seen immigration put house prices up by something like 20%.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-housing-minister-dominic-raab-warns-that-immigration-has-pushed-up-house-prices-n27b7lq8j
There's also an incredibly difficult path that any government must tread. If they succeed in making homes 20% more affordable, then they put the last seven years of house purchasers into negative equity, and reduce the wealth effect for all home owners. (A lower wealth effect almost certainly results in a higher savings rate as householders compensate for having smaller savings embedded in their house. But a higher savings rate also means that consumer spending falls, potentially triggering a recession.)0 -
There are some people who will dispute anything. If you will find people who say Richard III didn't murder his nephews, you are going to find people who claim Corbyn was telling the truth even when we have clear video evidence that he wasn't.Yorkcity said:
Did I say they was [sic]? The train issue was disputed .ydoethur said:
Both of which are simple statements of fact. Why would they be in any way controversial?Yorkcity said:
She said she was a Blairite and Jez was lying about his seat on the train .dyingswan said:Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.
I was curious therefore that you mentioned it.0 -
Apparently Orban used to work for Soros' foundation and then took some funding for a H.E. project. You do have to wonder what went on between them and how it came to be so personal.TheWhiteRabbit said:Did I miss the part where Soros became some sort of divine being? It is a very strange form of antisemticism to focus so much on one guy
0 -
To be honest , no one knew how we could intervene successfully .The free Syrian moderates people did not believe in.Casino_Royale said:
To be fair, Stodge is a Lib Dem.JosiasJessop said:
Don't divert blame. Ask yourself how your party - a party with a long and distinguished history - ended up backing a mass-murdering tyrant and endorsing the use of chemical weapons. for that is exactly what Labour did in that vote.stodge said:
30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
You f**kers.
I can understand not wanting blood on your hands, especially after Iraq. But what we saw over Syria, and since with MH17 and now Salisbury, are attempts to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, to blame everyone else - including ourselves - rather than the real culprits.
In the process, you have blood on your hands. Look at the pictures and weep over what you've done, you fools.
You shi**ing tragicomic fools.
I agree the equivocation in both the UK and US back in 2013 effectively re-legitimised the use of chemical weapons by calculating despots. It will now be far harder to contain than it would have been had we been decisive back then.
Non-intervention eventually carries an even heavier price tag than intervention.0 -
I really wish a journo would ask our leading politicians, "would you welcome a 20% fall in house prices?"rcs1000 said:
I'd love to see his workings, because my investigations show this is a *very* complex area.AndyJS said:"Immigration has put up house prices by 20% over the past 25 years and Britain’s post-Brexit border rules must take account of demand for affordable homes, the new housing minister has declared."
"Housing Minister Dominic Raab told The Sunday Times that: “Based on the ONS data, the advice to me from the department is that in the last 25 years we have seen immigration put house prices up by something like 20%.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-housing-minister-dominic-raab-warns-that-immigration-has-pushed-up-house-prices-n27b7lq8j
There's also an incredibly difficult path that any government must tread. If they succeed in making homes 20% more affordable, then they put the last seven years of house purchasers into negative equity, and reduce the wealth effect for all home owners. (A lower wealth effect almost certainly results in a higher savings rate as householders compensate for having smaller savings embedded in their house. But a higher savings rate also means that consumer spending falls, potentially triggering a recession.)0 -
ISIS were an almost unheard of fringe group at the time we chose to turn a blind eye to Assad's usage of chemical weapons. He was also at the brink of losing the war to the more mainstream rebels which is why he resorted to using them. With our backing the more mainstream rebels would have won.SeanT said:
Assad is a murdering bastard, and Putin an autocratig thug, etc etc but in what way would bombing Assad's Syrian forces, and thus enabling jihadists like ISIS to win that war, have benefited us? Or indeed Syrians?TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536
There is no good outcome in Syria. The least worst is Assad winning, at least that means a chance of stability, under a ruthless dictatorship. That is the tragic truth of the matter.0 -
@Andy_Cooke: an excellent analysis on the difference between consensual and adversarial political systems.
I wish there were a perfect electoral/political system, but really, one is choosing which problems one is happy with. I think the adversarial, typically FPTP, system results in substantial minorities (such as Eurosceptics in the UK) being almost completely ignored for decades. On the other hand, the consensual system results in no government or party being able to be held to manifesto promises.0 -
The conservatives are a broken flush. Robbing from the poor and giving to the rich is no longer cool. Wealth and income inequality in the UK has reached ridiculous levels. This fact alone will almost certainly mean that Corbyn or equivalent will be our next PM.SeanT said:This would seem to support my Plymouth minicab anecdote. Swing voters are coming round to the idea of Theresa May - "doing her best", "she's alright", "compared to the others she seems OK".
Corbyn is reviled.
Unless Brexit is a nuclear explosion, then she now has a very good chance of lasting until 2022. By which time, one hopes, she will have improved her campaigning skills, and she will - one hopes - still be facing a 70-something Jezbollah Corbyn Esq.
Next month we go to the polls here in London. The Tories will be skewered in our sophisticated progressive city.0 -
Yes she made that clear.williamglenn said:Didn't Maureen Lipman abandon Labour several years ago?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11196959/Maureen-Lipman-abandons-Ed-Miliband-over-Israel.html0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/22/hungary-viktor-orban-george-sorosTheWhiteRabbit said:Did I miss the part where Soros became some sort of divine being? It is a very strange form of antisemticism to focus so much on one guy
In addition (though I have no reason to think Orban thinks this) if you want evidence that the fate of nations is decided by rootless cosmopolitan billionaire jews, the claim that Soros personally forced the UK out of the ERM is about as good as it gets.0 -
Absolutely! Theresa isn't going anywhere; so much has been clear for a while. In fact, I can't see anything in her past or present to make believe that she's the type of politician to shuffle off the stage with good grace. She makes Thatcher look positively indifferent about holding on to high office. They'll have to prise her out, but there's no one remotely capable of doing so.SeanT said:This would seem to support my Plymouth minicab anecdote. Swing voters are coming round to the idea of Theresa May - "doing her best", "she's alright", "compared to the others she seems OK".
Corbyn is reviled.
Unless Brexit is a nuclear explosion, then she now has a very good chance of lasting until 2022. By which time, one hopes, she will have improved her campaigning skills, and she will - one hopes - still be facing a 70-something Jezbollah Corbyn Esq.0 -
That's not the alternative. I'm a fan of migration and think we need to tear up the green belt regulations and liberate house building as a solution. However if you're against that and start restricting migration from here that won't drop house prices by 20% as those who have arrived and required a home are still going to be here.tlg86 said:
I really wish a journo would ask our leading politicians, "would you welcome a 20% fall in house prices?"rcs1000 said:
I'd love to see his workings, because my investigations show this is a *very* complex area.AndyJS said:"Immigration has put up house prices by 20% over the past 25 years and Britain’s post-Brexit border rules must take account of demand for affordable homes, the new housing minister has declared."
"Housing Minister Dominic Raab told The Sunday Times that: “Based on the ONS data, the advice to me from the department is that in the last 25 years we have seen immigration put house prices up by something like 20%.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-housing-minister-dominic-raab-warns-that-immigration-has-pushed-up-house-prices-n27b7lq8j
There's also an incredibly difficult path that any government must tread. If they succeed in making homes 20% more affordable, then they put the last seven years of house purchasers into negative equity, and reduce the wealth effect for all home owners. (A lower wealth effect almost certainly results in a higher savings rate as householders compensate for having smaller savings embedded in their house. But a higher savings rate also means that consumer spending falls, potentially triggering a recession.)
In order for prices to drop we'd need net emigration. The alternatives are that prices roughly stabilise where they are or continue to escalate.0 -
Given that the minimum wage, living wage and personal allowance have all just risen, those on the lower incomes are considerably better off than they were. The top 10% and top 1% are paying more income taxes than ever before.murali_s said:
The conservatives are a broken flush. Robbing from the poor and giving to the rich is no longer cool. Wealth and income inequality in the UK has reached ridiculous levels. This fact alone will almost certainly mean that Corbyn or equivalent will be our next PM.SeanT said:This would seem to support my Plymouth minicab anecdote. Swing voters are coming round to the idea of Theresa May - "doing her best", "she's alright", "compared to the others she seems OK".
Corbyn is reviled.
Unless Brexit is a nuclear explosion, then she now has a very good chance of lasting until 2022. By which time, one hopes, she will have improved her campaigning skills, and she will - one hopes - still be facing a 70-something Jezbollah Corbyn Esq.0 -
It would have sent a message that if you use chemical or biological weapons, you would gain no advantage, and in fact it would cost you. Bloody his nose to the extent that he dare not use them again.SeanT said:
Assad is a murdering bastard, and Putin an autocratig thug, etc etc but in what way would bombing Assad's Syrian forces, and thus enabling jihadists like ISIS to win that war, have benefited us? Or indeed Syrians?TheScreamingEagles said:I hate Ed Miliband so much.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536
There is no good outcome in Syria. The least worst is Assad winning, at least that means a chance of stability, under a ruthless dictatorship. That is the tragic truth of the matter.
Instead, we just gave the green light for nasty regimes all over the world to work on such weapons, knowing after many events (e.g. Halubja et al) that they would not get punished for their use. And they're much easier to develop - and in most case weaponise - than nukes.
And hence we see Salisbury.0
