politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why one ex-LAB member has decided to rejoin the party

Given recent Labour leadership results you may have a while to wait before your fellow Labour members consider a more centrist alternative

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

On topic, good luck to Joff. Stay in the game: at some point it will swing and when it does, it needs good people to drag Labour back to electability.

It will be interesting to see if the party you are rejoining has changed much from that you left last year. It will also be instructive to see how much crap gets flung your way for defying the Deity.

Keep us posted!

I wish Joff all the luck in the world. But I'm afraid I think you are utterly deluded. By joining you will be actively paying for and campaigning for Corbyn - and those around him (many of whom are not Labour, never have been and never will be) - to be in No.10.

Good luck Joff, at fighting the disease from the inside.

SouthamObserver said:

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

Well being a Labour Party member does mean you have to say you are voting Labour or you will face expulsion.

Of course the ballot box is a secret place.

bigjohnowls said:

SouthamObserver said:

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

Well being a Labour Party member does mean you have to say you are voting Labour or you will face expulsion.

Of course the ballot box is a secret place.

I dunno, half of Corbyn's kitchen cabinet seem to have spent the last decade or more urging people to vote Socialist Workers, Communist, Green etc etc.

Van drives into pedestrians in Germany

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43683687

rottenborough said:

Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

A church of England vicar writes-

https://twitter.com/WalkerMarcus/status/982575771985248256

Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

There is a Jewish golf club up the road. It was founded because all the other golf clubs were full up whenever Jews wanted to join. So yes, we have seen anything this bad since Mosley.

Ishmael_Z said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

rottenborough said:

Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

A church of England vicar writes-

https://twitter.com/WalkerMarcus/status/982575771985248256

Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

There is a Jewish golf club up the road. It was founded because all the other golf clubs were full up whenever Jews wanted to join. So yes, we have seen anything this bad since Mosley.

Let us not exaggerate: Mosley's antisemitism went significantly beyond blackballings at golf clubs.

Since Mosley. Since. This was the 50s and 60s.

rottenborough said:

Re: Mosley.

I did some quick book reading.

He was chancellor of duchy of lancaster with responsibility for employment after 1929 election.

Colin Cross claims there is evidence he almost became Foreign Sec under MacDonald.

He really didn't nearly become FS.

However, he was tipped for promotion to the full cabinet very well quickly and widely thought of within Labour as a potential future leader.

Even after he left, there were serious attempts to lure him back to take over from Lansbury.

Mr Dancer’s bet on Raikkonen looking a little better...

JosiasJessop said:

Mosley's a character I've read around a little (he was a supporting character, rather than the main one), but never read much directly about. How much did he believe in the sh*t he was saying, and how much was he just riding in the fascist wave that was sweeping through Europe?

Can't answer for his postwar career, don't know enough about it (I know more about John Beckett).

However Mosley's problem as a politician was he was always passionate and over-committed to everything he took up. That's why he left the Tories, why he walked out of Labour in a huff when his policies weren't instantly adopted, and why his new party lurched into Fascism as he became more disillusioned with democracy.

It may also be seen in his, shall we say, energetic sex life.

TheWhiteRabbit said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

++ BETTING POST ++

When will Theresa May cease to be Conservatives Leader? @ 1.62 is far too long (PP)

Unless you think she will resign as PM and stay on as leader (e.g. loses an election) then it is the reverse of Betfair's "to leave in 2018" which is a much more sensible 3/1.

Is there a date missing from this post? 1.62 is far too long for what?

Yes, sorry "2019 or later"

When does it pay out though, on 1/1/19 or on the day she is no longer leader? Odds-on bets are crap if one has to wait several years to get paid out.

SouthamObserver said:

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.

SouthamObserver said:

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

Careful now, the compliance unit will be after you right after joining!

Welcome back

William_H said:

Its fairly silly to say that "the British electorate is smart enough never to put into power a party led by the far-left." when the party led by the "far-left" Is on 40% and came within a few percent of winning the last election

Quite so. A few percent in the right places - eg a bit bitter for SLAB than SCON - and things start to get very possible for a Lab coalition at the very least, and next time the government will have been in power for 12 long years, led by the gods only know whom.

I would not begrudge Southam his choice, it's a hard one and perhaps it is the best approach for those of a like mind, but I don't think the public would have a problem putting a party led by the far left in power. If the appeal is strong enough, people won't consider that it is the far left they put in power, and probably don't think of it that way when the far right are gaining power.

As Macron has shown in France, it is just not true that the Labour Party is the only possible alternative to the Conservatives. And even if it was, you don't help the centre-left by paying membership dues to the party that helps the far left get elected. Especially when the conservatives are committed to anti-racism and the democratic alliance under a moderate leader.

Respect to anyone who actually gets involved, rather than just carp from their armchair or saloon bar.

But the battle Joff is (re)joining is not the one against the Tories, but the ongoing civil war within Labour. Joining the weaker side in an internal struggle will most likely serve to prolong the agony. Meanwhile Labour remains the biggest obstacle to decent government in the country, and the change to a fairer more open political system remains as faraway as ever.

DM_Andy said:

SouthamObserver said:

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.

Given that all parties are coalitions, as Labour's ructions have in particular show lately and the Tories are hardly immune to, speaking as a non-party member I don't see why it should be so hard not to back specific candidates within the same party. Did Corbyn have a problem not supporting his own Labour Prime Ministers whenever it clashed with his own personal values? Surely not. His support for the party was qualified by the things he personally considered more important. Cannot someone else support the general feeling of the party's centre-left approach while taking it a step farther and not voting for specific candidates? So long as they don't advocate people vote for another party, but rather stay at home, is it even a breach of party member honesty? It'd just be not putting their all in for those who do not deserve it.

The party system has many issues but an amount of general support for one or the other is not unreasonable, but personal merit surely has to come into at some point? Otherwise people really are supposed to vote for the proverbial donkey with the right coloured rosette.

Even for party members it seems there must be a point at which supporting any old duffer put up as a candidate does not help the wider movement, or the direction of that movement. Loyalty to a brand can be worth it, to be sure, for the wider benefits, but is it really a virtue to support any candidates merely once they are selected? As we see with local councillors in particular, parties have no trouble selecting some right idiots sometimes. That isn't even a uniquely Labour issue.

RoyalBlue said:

I must disagree with Joff’s decision.

The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

The only way to defeat Corbynism is on the electoral battlefield. The Conservative Party is the only organisation capable of doing so. Only then will the Labour Party consider a new approach.

I’m also dubious about the morality of joining a party without the intention to vote for its candidates.

It's an interesting counterpoint to @AlastairMeeks' argument about those who make common cause with elements they can't agree with.

EMI said:

The war has already been well won

A campaign of guerilla unrest to be undetaken then, I guess.

Elliot said:

As Macron has shown in France, it is just not true that the Labour Party is the only possible alternative to the Conservatives. And even if it was, you don't help the centre-left by paying membership dues to the party that helps the far left get elected. Especially when the conservatives are committed to anti-racism and the democratic alliance under a moderate leader.

I think you’ll find that our strong and stable (trademark) party system and FPTP electoral system rule out anything like the Macron phenomenon in this country.

Otherwise I agree 100%

Elliot said:

rkrkrk said:

SouthamObserver said:

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

Given that most of the MPs are closer in politics to you than Corbyn - why wouldn't you vote Labour?

Because those MPs are spineless and will back Corbyn to be PM.

Precisely.

Elliot said:

rottenborough said:

Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

A church of England vicar writes-

https://twitter.com/WalkerMarcus/status/982575771985248256

Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

That is really damning. I would like to say to any British Jews reading this that Corbyn and his rabid far left faction are a minority of a minority in the UK. The majority of us stand with you and will continue to do so.

DM_Andy said:

kle4 said:

DM_Andy said:

SouthamObserver said:

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.

Given that all parties are coalitions, as Labour's ructions have in particular show lately and the Tories are hardly immune to, speaking as a non-party member I don't see why it should be so hard not to back specific candidates within the same party. Did Corbyn have a problem not supporting his own Labour Prime Ministers whenever it clashed with his own personal values? Surely not. His support for the party was qualified by the things he personally considered more important. Cannot someone else support the general feeling of the party's centre-left approach while taking it a step farther and not voting for specific candidates? So long as they don't advocate people vote for another party, but rather stay at home, is it even a breach of party member honesty? It'd just be not putting their all in for those who do not deserve it.

The party system has many issues but an amount of general support for one or the other is not unreasonable, but personal merit surely has to come into at some point? Otherwise people really are supposed to vote for the proverbial donkey with the right coloured rosette.

I have sympathy for that point of view and there have been some candidates that I can imagine I would have had difficulty with (George Galloway for example). Maybe in those exceptional circumstances maybe I wouldn't have worked for their election. But to join the party to harm it from the inside seems wrong to me.

Perhaps - I can imagine plenty of party members thinking along the same lines. But others might consider that he is not harming them by being selective in support, if they think Corbyn and co will, in the long term, do more harm. Not an easy situation.

Whilst I could never support the Labour party with or without Corbyn at the helm, I do think we need a credible and effective opposition.

For the sake of the country I hope SO is successful although I fear he is fighting a lost cause at present.

Elliot said:

rottenborough said:

Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

A church of England vicar writes-

https://twitter.com/WalkerMarcus/status/982575771985248256

Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

That is really damning. I would like to say to any British Jews reading this that Corbyn and his rabid far left faction are a minority of a minority in the UK. The majority of us stand with you and will continue to do so.

Absolutely. Just as I would say the same about the Far Right and British Muslims.

Britain should be a country of tolerance. The Far Left and the Far Right would both drag us away from this and need to be opposed. Which is why SO is absolutely right in his stand.

Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

DM_Andy said:

kle4 said:

DM_Andy said:

SouthamObserver said:

Being a Labour member does not mean you have to vote Labour, fellow centre-leftists ;-)

Joining a political party in order but not even wish to vote for their candidates is stinkingly dishonest. I've got my differences with some Labour candidates but once they are selected, then I've gone on the doorstep to campaign for all of them with all my heart. Joff, if you cannot say the same, please don't join the party.

Given that all parties are coalitions, as Labour's ructions have in particular show lately and the Tories are hardly immune to, speaking as a non-party member I don't see why it should be so hard not to back specific candidates within the same party. Did Corbyn have a problem not supporting his own Labour Prime Ministers whenever it clashed with his own personal values? Surely not. His support for the party was qualified by the things he personally considered more important. Cannot someone else support the general feeling of the party's centre-left approach while taking it a step farther and not voting for specific candidates? So long as they don't advocate people vote for another party, but rather stay at home, is it even a breach of party member honesty? It'd just be not putting their all in for those who do not deserve it.

The party system has many issues but an amount of general support for one or the other is not unreasonable, but personal merit surely has to come into at some point? Otherwise people really are supposed to vote for the proverbial donkey with the right coloured rosette.

I have sympathy for that point of view and there have been some candidates that I can imagine I would have had difficulty with (George Galloway for example). Maybe in those exceptional circumstances maybe I wouldn't have worked for their election. But to join the party to harm it from the inside seems wrong to me.

This is like the EU situation all over again. Harming the party from the inside is the very opposite of what Joff is aiming at. He believes the harm that Mr Corbyn & his supporters have already inflicted on the party is in need of, and capable of, remedy from inside.

What you presumably see as an attempt to maim, Joff presumably sees as an attempt at surgery.

RochdalePioneers said:

Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....

On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?

EMI said:

A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.

Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.

tyson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....

On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?

Not addressed to me, but does it really matter if they are? A serious issue has been accepted by the party, so even if their opponents want to make even more of it than is the case, the reaction needs to be the same.

The_Apocalypse said:

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/982524578399490048

Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!

Richard_Tyndall said:

Elliot said:

rottenborough said:

Meanwhile, thanks to Labour in 2018:

A church of England vicar writes-

https://twitter.com/WalkerMarcus/status/982575771985248256

Have we seen anything this bad since Mosely?

That is really damning. I would like to say to any British Jews reading this that Corbyn and his rabid far left faction are a minority of a minority in the UK. The majority of us stand with you and will continue to do so.

Absolutely. Just as I would say the same about the Far Right and British Muslims.

Britain should be a country of tolerance. The Far Left and the Far Right would both drag us away from this and need to be opposed. Which is why SO is absolutely right in his stand.

Thanks Richard!

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

Cheers.

My aim is not to maim the Labour party, it is to play a role - no matter how small - in making it electable again. The country needs a credible alternative and it doesn’t have one at the moment.

You have written from the heart. But you are on a fool’s errand, I’m afraid. Your money will be used by the current Labour party led by Corbyn et al to try and win power. Your joining will be taken by them as support for everything they are now doing and not doing, even the stuff you dislike. I like your posts and share your wish for a viable liberal social democratic opposition. But much as it may hurt you to hear this you will be treated by the current leadership as a useful idiot.

Still, good luck and let us know how you get on.

kle4 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/982524578399490048

Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!

David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.

RochdalePioneers said:

Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

So the majority of Labour party members are loons !! ..

Joff Vs Jezz - And this time it's personal!

kle4 said:

Is Mike right about that though? Labour were pretty darn divided and made progressin 2017, even though they still lost, and are far less divided now (antisemitism row notwithstanding, and which will die down soon enough).

I think it's a reasonable assumption that if Labour had been united it might have done a little bit better in 2017, also it can be argued that the Tories weren't exactly singing from a single hymnsheet in the same election.

DM_Andy said:

AnneJGP said:

In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

RoyalBlue said:

The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.

I know nothing about you and never move from the general to the particular in that way. For your information, I voted Leave, so I too read a lot of adverse criticism of my views on this board.

DM_Andy said:

AnneJGP said:

In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.

RoyalBlue said:

The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.

Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.

Welcoming, not embracing, perhaps.

Don't worry - in the end, everyone is a PB Tory. It might take years, but eventually they all go blue, even if only once.

To be honest when you join a political party the first thing that happens is you get tapped up for some good old delivery"

tyson said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued

Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....

On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?

Of course they are - and rightly so. The far-left’s tolerance of anti-Semitism gives free rein to people who have been dogwhistling to racists, bigots and xenophobes for years to take the moral high ground. Not only is the anti-Semitism inside Labour morally repugnant, it is also politically destructive.

kle4 said:

As A Liverpool fan I am no fan of Sterling anymore, but the refs are being pretty ridiculous on him and regarding fouls on him so far in the derby,

I've no sympathy. Cheating is rife in football, as is the feigning of injury and the match long attempts to dupe referees.