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A shadow minister has been accused of “slapping” the buttocks of a female party member and making offensive sexual remarks about her.

"A witness told the Financial Times that those present were shocked to have seen Karl Turner, Labour’s transport spokesman, “slap” a woman’s backside as she walked through his constituency office in the summer of 2015.The witnesses have also alleged the MP for Hull East told the woman, who had had a double mastectomy, that she “shouldn’t have got rid of her real tits because they were great”.

https://www.ft.com/content/c2e5a5aa-22be-11e8-add1-0e8958b189ea

SeanT said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Rentool, well, quite. Comparing media coverage of knee-touching (where the 'victim' really didn't care) in Westminster and a rape gang in Newcastle proves you're right.

Still, thanks goodness Southern and Pettibone have been barred entry to the UK. The nation feels safe again.

I just did some rough but spooky maths.


Population of Rotherham: 250,000
Number of victims in Rotherham: 1500

= 0.6% of population

Population of Telford: 170,000
Number of victims in Telford: 1000

= 0.58% of the population - essentially the same. Spooky, no?

If this 0.6% rule applies across UK, it implies 390,000 victims, nationwide.

Of course it won't apply across the UK, there are far too many variables, in demography and time, but it gives a sense of the scale. There could easily be 50,000 victims nationwide. Maybe 100,000

It is the greatest scandal in modern British history and we refuse to properly address it, and indeed it is continuing. It's just horrific.

Except that the former was over a decade and a half, and (according to the Mirror) the latter over four decades.

In any event, it seems likely that there will be calls for a further enquiry (and not before time):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-43371805

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Elliot, unlikely. I could see Soubry jumping ship, but Labour defectors tend to be rare. Not to mention, since the election they've been far more obedient to the dear leader (with a few honourable exceptions).

Remember the SDP.

Sandpit said:

SandyRentool said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Sandpit, is that regarding the Telford scandal or events in Parliament?

Have some perspective Mr D - a parliamentary aid being called "love" is way more important than 1,000 schoolgirls being raped.

And a bawdy charity dinner is way more important than Harvey Weinstein’s casting couch.

Is anyone - apart form those seeking to defend the former - saying that ?

Sandpit said:

Caroline Lucas reportedly granted an Urgent Question into the conduct of the Speaker’s Office with regard to sexual harrasment at 15:30 - an hour from now.

Are there any urgent questions planned to be tabled today on Telford? Seems only the trials of middle class women in London and Brighton are of concern to many of our politicians?

HYUFD said:

Chuka Umunna and Anna Soubry write a joint Evening Standard article on how their parties must avoid betraying the Brexit generation
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anna-soubry-and-chuka-umunna-the-brexit-generation-will-never-forgive-our-parties-if-we-fail-a3787531.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Wouldn't it be so much more to the point if somebody investigated just why the generation that voted to Join in the first place changed their minds?

Good afternoon, everybody. (Not long joined the thread and still chasing through the comments.)

Sandpit said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

Sandpit said:

SandyRentool said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Sandpit, is that regarding the Telford scandal or events in Parliament?

Have some perspective Mr D - a parliamentary aid being called "love" is way more important than 1,000 schoolgirls being raped.

And a bawdy charity dinner is way more important than Harvey Weinstein’s casting couch.

It's and not or.

Yes, but the media have to decide which is the headline.

And a lot of them seem to be ignoring the Mirror scoop investigation on child sex abuse.

Yes.

For once I do think we have to be a bit more SeanT about this.

Nigelb said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. B, cheers for reposting. I haven't seen any coverage of it on the news whatsoever, which seems bizarre, and don't listen to the radio.

An interesting interview with a remarkably relaxed Aldo Costa for you, Mr.D;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=534&v=zVMiA1PhW_E

There's also this...
Adrian Newey: "Mercedes is superior in all disciplines. Engine power, fuel consumption, drivability, MGU-H recuperation. You can not make up for that with a better car."

Let's see how Ferrari do.

Adrian Newey used to live in our village.

I sat next to him at one village dinner/dance and over the evening he said less than the above sentence.

Mr. Evershed, it amuses me that people cite the SDP but not UKIP or En Marche. Both are more recent, and whilst UKIP was rubbish at Westminster it had great success in its primary aim.

Besides, a new party should have a shedload of Labour MPs on board.

Good afternoon, Miss JGP.

Mr. Cooke, careful, old bean. You might be accused of being culturally insensitive.

AlastairMeeks said:

tpfkar said:

Deltapoll sounds like something I'd quietly pick up in the pharmacy! Good luck though, it sounds an ambitious and expensive venture, but both comments about picking up the emotional aspect of political decision-making and the variation sound sensible.

One question about the emotional side - I've heard it said that 1 in 6 voters make up their minds in the polling station. I've never really believed this. So can I ask - have any posters here ever done that? My only example is that I was going to spoil my ballot for the police commissioner (went to vote for the council) but ending up voting loyally as well there, on a whim.

I usually make up my mind in the polling booth. Sometimes I surprise myself.

Like the day you voted for Brexit?

Mr. B, pah. My books have far more murdering. And cock jokes.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Evershed, it amuses me that people cite the SDP but not UKIP or En Marche. Both are more recent, and whilst UKIP was rubbish at Westminster it had great success in its primary aim.

Besides, a new party should have a shedload of Labour MPs on board.

Good afternoon, Miss JGP.

Mr. Cooke, careful, old bean. You might be accused of being culturally insensitive.

That's okay.
I don't think I've ever been in danger of being accused of being sensitive in any sphere.

Andy_Cooke said:

SeanT said:

Nigelb said:

SeanT said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Rentool, well, quite. Comparing media coverage of knee-touching (where the 'victim' really didn't care) in Westminster and a rape gang in Newcastle proves you're right.

Still, thanks goodness Southern and Pettibone have been barred entry to the UK. The nation feels safe again.

I just did some rough but spooky maths.


Population of Rotherham: 250,000
Number of victims in Rotherham: 1500

= 0.6% of population

Population of Telford: 170,000
Number of victims in Telford: 1000

= 0.58% of the population - essentially the same. Spooky, no?

If this 0.6% rule applies across UK, it implies 390,000 victims, nationwide.

Of course it won't apply across the UK, there are far too many variables, in demography and time, but it gives a sense of the scale. There could easily be 50,000 victims nationwide. Maybe 100,000

It is the greatest scandal in modern British history and we refuse to properly address it, and indeed it is continuing. It's just horrific.

Except that the former was over a decade and a half, and (according to the Mirror) the latter over four decades.

In any event, it seems likely that there will be calls for a further enquiry (and not before time):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-43371805

That's why I said it won't apply. The identical percentage stats are just an eerie coincidence.

But they do point to the nationwide scale. It's so atrocious it's beyond credibiity, yet it happened.

And now I have to stop being gobsmacked with horror, and do some work. Later.

It would imply that about one in every eighty women were victims.
That's horrific.

Even more if you only look at those in the right age range.

Mr. Elliot, an astute point. A generation (mostly, but not entirely, white and female) is being taught the authorities don't give a shit if they're repeatedly abused. It's vital that the mainstream actually address this rather than colluding, covering up and focusing on knee-touching in Westminster. Otherwise I fear we could see a massive shift to the far right.

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

A shadow minister has been accused of “slapping” the buttocks of a female party member and making offensive sexual remarks about her.

"A witness told the Financial Times that those present were shocked to have seen Karl Turner, Labour’s transport spokesman, “slap” a woman’s backside as she walked through his constituency office in the summer of 2015.The witnesses have also alleged the MP for Hull East told the woman, who had had a double mastectomy, that she “shouldn’t have got rid of her real tits because they were great”.

https://www.ft.com/content/c2e5a5aa-22be-11e8-add1-0e8958b189ea

The slap on the arse is bad and unacceptable, but WTF about her breasts given he clearly knew what had happened to her. Even in the 70s when men used to snack the arse of their secretary more regularly would have the common decency not to make those kind of comments about somebody who had cancer.

She might not have actually had cancer, I don't know. Not that I disagree.

Uncanny.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. B, pah. My books have far more murdering. And cock jokes.

Now you're engaging in whataboutery and false comparison, Mr.D.
I would, of course, advocate purchasing both. Should one have a sufficiently broad spread of interests...

I see the teenager who chucked acid in a load of people’s faces only got 10 years. Although an adult now if he had been it would have been 22 years.

Given this crime is mostly teenagers in gangs doing it to those their are trying to rob or other gang members, not sure 10 years (out in less than 5) is a massive deterrent.

David_Evershed said:

AnneJGP said:

HYUFD said:

Chuka Umunna and Anna Soubry write a joint Evening Standard article on how their parties must avoid betraying the Brexit generation
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anna-soubry-and-chuka-umunna-the-brexit-generation-will-never-forgive-our-parties-if-we-fail-a3787531.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Wouldn't it be so much more to the point if somebody investigated just why the generation that voted to Join in the first place changed their minds?

Good afternoon, everybody. (Not long joined the thread and still chasing through the comments.)

We voted to join the Common Market not a political union.

We never voted to join the Common Market, Parliament did.
There was a referendum on whether or not to leave it, in 1975. Voters then voted to stay.
It was also Parliament that approved the Common Market's changes to a more political union now known as the EU.

Any news on the UQ in the Commons?

FrancisUrquhart said:

I see the teenager who chucked acid in a load of people’s faces only got 10 years. Although an adult now if he had been it would have been 22 years.

Given this crime is mostly teenagers in gangs doing it to those their are trying to rob or other gang members, not sure 10 years (out in less than 5) is a massive deterrent.

An acid attack that permenantly disfigured someone should be a life sentence for GBH.

The thugs on bikes need to be put on notice that the police will take them out with cars or guns.

MarqueeMark said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

A shadow minister has been accused of “slapping” the buttocks of a female party member and making offensive sexual remarks about her.

"A witness told the Financial Times that those present were shocked to have seen Karl Turner, Labour’s transport spokesman, “slap” a woman’s backside as she walked through his constituency office in the summer of 2015.The witnesses have also alleged the MP for Hull East told the woman, who had had a double mastectomy, that she “shouldn’t have got rid of her real tits because they were great”.

https://www.ft.com/content/c2e5a5aa-22be-11e8-add1-0e8958b189ea

The slap on the arse is bad and unacceptable, but WTF about her breasts given he clearly knew what had happened to her. Even in the 70s when men used to snack the arse of their secretary more regularly would have the common decency not to make those kind of comments about somebody who had cancer.

SNACK the arse of their secretary?

Come on. We were often hungry.

DeClare said:

David_Evershed said:

AnneJGP said:

HYUFD said:

Chuka Umunna and Anna Soubry write a joint Evening Standard article on how their parties must avoid betraying the Brexit generation
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anna-soubry-and-chuka-umunna-the-brexit-generation-will-never-forgive-our-parties-if-we-fail-a3787531.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Wouldn't it be so much more to the point if somebody investigated just why the generation that voted to Join in the first place changed their minds?

Good afternoon, everybody. (Not long joined the thread and still chasing through the comments.)

We voted to join the Common Market not a political union.

We never voted to join the Common Market, Parliament did.
There was a referendum on whether or not to leave it, in 1975. Voters then voted to stay.
It was also Parliament that approved the Common Market's changes to a more political union now known as the EU.

I stand corrected.

We voted to remain in a Common Market - we did not vote to join a political union.

That's how people could vote to Remain in 1975 and vote to Leave in 2017.

Blue_rog said:

Any news on the UQ in the Commons?

16.10

David_Evershed said:

DeClare said:

David_Evershed said:

AnneJGP said:

HYUFD said:

Chuka Umunna and Anna Soubry write a joint Evening Standard article on how their parties must avoid betraying the Brexit generation
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anna-soubry-and-chuka-umunna-the-brexit-generation-will-never-forgive-our-parties-if-we-fail-a3787531.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Wouldn't it be so much more to the point if somebody investigated just why the generation that voted to Join in the first place changed their minds?

Good afternoon, everybody. (Not long joined the thread and still chasing through the comments.)

We voted to join the Common Market not a political union.

We never voted to join the Common Market, Parliament did.
There was a referendum on whether or not to leave it, in 1975. Voters then voted to stay.
It was also Parliament that approved the Common Market's changes to a more political union now known as the EU.

I stand corrected.

We voted to remain in a Common Market - we did not vote to join a political union.

It was a political union from the beginning. The only question is what form that political union took and evolved into.

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Elliot, an astute point. A generation (mostly, but not entirely, white and female) is being taught the authorities don't give a shit if they're repeatedly abused. It's vital that the mainstream actually address this rather than colluding, covering up and focusing on knee-touching in Westminster. Otherwise I fear we could see a massive shift to the far right.

It's not that a generation is being taught that authorities don't give a shit about them; it's just that they've learnt that other people (mostly white men) routinely treat them as lesser. This shows itself in a whole spectrum of ways, from full-scale rape to wolf-whistling and pats on the bottom.

If we men treated women (and others) as equals, and not as lessers, then much of this sh*t wouldn't happen.

I was taught in school that you shouldn't wolf-whistle, shouldn't pat on bottoms, etc. We men have known this behaviour is wrong since the 1970s, and yet it still goes on. And it finally looks as though society may have had enough.

The problems of 'knee touching in Westminster' is a reaction to this; because we men have behaved so poorly, we have lost all rights to the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, but understandably.

As we saw on here with some posters' reaction to the Presidents Club; some sadly believe it's alright to treat women as lessers if you are rich and powerful.

We were taught to keep our hands to ourselves and not to make personal remarks. This was at primary school ffs. When I entered the workforce (as a student) in the mid 70s, casual sexism and harrassment was so common as to be unremarkable; the pats, the stroking, the leering and so on. In my world it died out in the 80s, along with smoking and drink/driving. Maybe I was just living in a bubble.

John_M said:

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Elliot, an astute point. A generation (mostly, but not entirely, white and female) is being taught the authorities don't give a shit if they're repeatedly abused. It's vital that the mainstream actually address this rather than colluding, covering up and focusing on knee-touching in Westminster. Otherwise I fear we could see a massive shift to the far right.

It's not that a generation is being taught that authorities don't give a shit about them; it's just that they've learnt that other people (mostly white men) routinely treat them as lesser. This shows itself in a whole spectrum of ways, from full-scale rape to wolf-whistling and pats on the bottom.

If we men treated women (and others) as equals, and not as lessers, then much of this sh*t wouldn't happen.

I was taught in school that you shouldn't wolf-whistle, shouldn't pat on bottoms, etc. We men have known this behaviour is wrong since the 1970s, and yet it still goes on. And it finally looks as though society may have had enough.

The problems of 'knee touching in Westminster' is a reaction to this; because we men have behaved so poorly, we have lost all rights to the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, but understandably.

As we saw on here with some posters' reaction to the Presidents Club; some sadly believe it's alright to treat women as lessers if you are rich and powerful.

We were taught to keep our hands to ourselves and not to make personal remarks. This was at primary school ffs. When I entered the workforce (as a student) in the mid 70s, casual sexism and harrassment was so common as to be unremarkable; the pats, the stroking, the leering and so on. In my world it died out in the 80s, along with smoking and drink/driving. Maybe I was just living in a bubble.

I would say, Mr M, that it was the same in my world.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jessop, it's not mostly white men committing gang rape. As for wolf-whistling, that's a hundred miles away from sexual assault. I also absolutely disagree with your 'benefit of the doubt' comment. All people are innocent until proving guilty, presuming guilt is the perverse legal perspective of puritans and Cardassians.

It's got the same root cause

"That girl is not of my religion, so she is less worthy and I can do what I want to her."
"That naughty boy is less faithful than me, so I can abuse him."
"That waitress earns less than me, and so I can touch her up."

It's men treating women as less than them. In the case of Muslim gangs, it's treating them as lesser because they're often not of the same religion, or some other stupid excuse. In the case of priests, because they had the power and the boys or girls did not. In the case of the Presidents Club, because they had money and the waitresses did not.

Yes, the scale is different. But it all adds up to an utterly rotten atmosphere for women in many places. And that's what we're seeing a reaction to.

Am I alone in not finding the late Ken Dodd remotely funny? According to the ES here are his 10 best jokes: https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/sir-ken-dodds-10-best-jokes-do-i-believe-in-safe-sex-of-course-i-do-i-have-a-handrail-around-the-bed-a3787291.html

It really must have been the way that he told them.

Mr. Jessop, the scale is not merely different, the behaviour is so wildly different as to not even be comparable. For example, the waitresses chose to be at the President's Club. The victims at Rotherham often went to the police and were ignored or even handed back to their abusers.

The most serious cases must be addressed with the utmost urgency. Instead we get everything wrapped together and more media and political attention focused on a journalist's knee than on a Newcastle rape gang. Because when the perpetrators are white men, the media and political class is very comfortable going after them. But when they're Pakistani Muslims, it's a bit more uncomfortable.

I'm not saying low level stuff like touching or even really obnoxious comments don't matter. But when you've got cancer and a slight headache, you prioritise the cancer.

DavidL said:

Am I alone in not finding the late Ken Dodd remotely funny? According to the ES here are his 10 best jokes: https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/sir-ken-dodds-10-best-jokes-do-i-believe-in-safe-sex-of-course-i-do-i-have-a-handrail-around-the-bed-a3787291.html

It really must have been the way that he told them.

It was - my wife and I met him after a function we attended and he was charming and just good company. He also had a good voice and tears and happiness were enormous hits.

He did a lot of good charity work and was a great friend of a lady in our Village who was a prodigious charity fund raiser

Best comedian one has seen in the past few years?

For me, Ross Noble...but mileage may vary from night to night as most of his show is unscripted and relies on the audience willing to play along. Last time I saw him, a couple of people were really comfortable interacting with him and had some quite witty banter.

Ishmael_Z said:

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Elliot, an astute point. A generation (mostly, but not entirely, white and female) is being taught the authorities don't give a shit if they're repeatedly abused. It's vital that the mainstream actually address this rather than colluding, covering up and focusing on knee-touching in Westminster. Otherwise I fear we could see a massive shift to the far right.

It's not that a generation is being taught that authorities don't give a shit about them; it's just that they've learnt that other people (mostly white men) routinely treat them as lesser. This shows itself in a whole spectrum of ways, from full-scale rape to wolf-whistling and pats on the bottom.

If we men treated women (and others) as equals, and not as lessers, then much of this sh*t wouldn't happen.

I was taught in school that you shouldn't wolf-whistle, shouldn't pat on bottoms, etc. We men have known this behaviour is wrong since the 1970s, and yet it still goes on. And it finally looks as though society may have had enough.

The problems of 'knee touching in Westminster' is a reaction to this; because we men have behaved so poorly, we have lost all rights to the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, but understandably.

As we saw on here with some posters' reaction to the Presidents Club; some sadly believe it's alright to treat women as lessers if you are rich and powerful.

What a bizarre post. If you want to excoriate yourself for committing atrocities in your heart (or in real life, for that matter) go ahead, perhaps in a more appropriate forum, but leave other white men to speak for themselves, perhaps? Most people don't have to be "taught in school" not to pat bottoms or wolf whistle. Your reaction to the President's Club thing was one great mansplanation of how your judgment was better than that of the women who decided to take the job, and of the female FT reporter who covered the story, and of the GOSH trustees who are now happy to take the money, and now it turns out that you've got the moral drop on all white men, as well as all women. Also, check out Rotherham and Telford before going all in on the "mostly white men" theory.

The only thing bizarre is your reaction. Oh, and your lack of paragraphs.

You repeatedly misunderstand my reaction to the Presidents Club, I'm guessing for your own reasons.

But to make it clear: I'm not saying I'm more moral than anybody else; I'm trying to make people understand why we're in the mess we're in.

And again, I've not got a 'mostly white men' theory; you need to actually read my post, which is about abuse of all types in general.

DavidL said:

Am I alone in not finding the late Ken Dodd remotely funny? According to the ES here are his 10 best jokes: https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/sir-ken-dodds-10-best-jokes-do-i-believe-in-safe-sex-of-course-i-do-i-have-a-handrail-around-the-bed-a3787291.html

It really must have been the way that he told them.

It was.

As I said this morning, even as a twelve year old, I thought his humour puerile - but dragged along to a live show, I was unable not to laugh.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Jessop, worth noting that a few years ago a report into such things (unwanted sexual advances in Westminster) found that most of those on the receiving end were male.

Indeed, and I've always made it clear that abuse can happen in all ways between genders: male-female, female-male, male-male, female-female etc, etc.

But in the case of workplace abuse (as at Westminster), the 'lesser' idea will still fit.

we just need to learn from Bill and Ted :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_yJFLvmjJY

AnneJGP said:

DavidL said:

Am I alone in not finding the late Ken Dodd remotely funny? According to the ES here are his 10 best jokes: https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/sir-ken-dodds-10-best-jokes-do-i-believe-in-safe-sex-of-course-i-do-i-have-a-handrail-around-the-bed-a3787291.html

It really must have been the way that he told them.

Ken Dodd never did anything for me, either. RIP anyway, of course.

Of course.

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Elliot, an astute point. A generation (mostly, but not entirely, white and female) is being taught the authorities don't give a shit if they're repeatedly abused. It's vital that the mainstream actually address this rather than colluding, covering up and focusing on knee-touching in Westminster. Otherwise I fear we could see a massive shift to the far right.

It's not that a generation is being taught that authorities don't give a shit about them; it's just that they've learnt that other people (mostly white men) routinely treat them as lesser. This shows itself in a whole spectrum of ways, from full-scale rape to wolf-whistling and pats on the bottom.

If we men treated women (and others) as equals, and not as lessers, then much of this sh*t wouldn't happen.

I was taught in school that you shouldn't wolf-whistle, shouldn't pat on bottoms, etc. We men have known this behaviour is wrong since the 1970s, and yet it still goes on. And it finally looks as though society may have had enough.

The problems of 'knee touching in Westminster' is a reaction to this; because we men have behaved so poorly, we have lost all rights to the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, but understandably.

As we saw on here with some posters' reaction to the Presidents Club; some sadly believe it's alright to treat women as lessers if you are rich and powerful.

I don't accept the doctrine of male collective guilt.

According to Wiki Telford has 3.3% Asian population. In a town of 170k that amounts to 5,610. If the national average applies 54% of those are female making the men 2,580, including children. An average of 16.6% of the population are under 16. I suspect for the Asian community with higher than average families that may be on the low side. That reduces the number of adult Asian men, including pensioners of course, to 2,152.

If there have indeed been 1,000 victims of Asian gangs over the last 40 years then it is deeply alarming to consider what proportion of that Asian, adult, male population may have had some involvement. It is very unlikely to be under 10%. It is equally concerning to consider whether the remainder really had no idea what was going on in their midst or simply looked the other way.

Of course it is true that society in general has not cared enough about these children. The failure to act by the authorities over that time is a disgrace and a national shame. But anyone who refuses to recognise that there is not a major problem with the cultural attitudes and behaviours of one of our minorities is simply not facing the facts.

FrancisUrquhart said:

I see Bercow is chairing the debate about him. Surely that can't be right. Why is the deputy speaker not in place?

Tory MP just asked the same question

Sean_F said:

JosiasJessop said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Elliot, an astute point. A generation (mostly, but not entirely, white and female) is being taught the authorities don't give a shit if they're repeatedly abused. It's vital that the mainstream actually address this rather than colluding, covering up and focusing on knee-touching in Westminster. Otherwise I fear we could see a massive shift to the far right.

It's not that a generation is being taught that authorities don't give a shit about them; it's just that they've learnt that other people (mostly white men) routinely treat them as lesser. This shows itself in a whole spectrum of ways, from full-scale rape to wolf-whistling and pats on the bottom.

If we men treated women (and others) as equals, and not as lessers, then much of this sh*t wouldn't happen.

I was taught in school that you shouldn't wolf-whistle, shouldn't pat on bottoms, etc. We men have known this behaviour is wrong since the 1970s, and yet it still goes on. And it finally looks as though society may have had enough.

The problems of 'knee touching in Westminster' is a reaction to this; because we men have behaved so poorly, we have lost all rights to the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, but understandably.

As we saw on here with some posters' reaction to the Presidents Club; some sadly believe it's alright to treat women as lessers if you are rich and powerful.

I don't accept the doctrine of male collective guilt.

I don't want to, but sadly that's the situation we've ended up in. 'Our' (male) attitudes to those 'lesser' than ourselves, and especially women, has been poor for too long, even whilst 'we've' known such behaviour is wrong.

It's a pisser, because most men aren't like that. But as abuses in parliament, Presidents Club and elsewhere show, it occurs from the bottom to the very top of society.

Too many men have been getting away with absolutely shitty behaviour towards women personally and directly, and too many others have been turning a blind eye or excusing it.

SandyRentool said:

DavidL said:

According to Wiki Telford has 3.3% Asian population. In a town of 170k that amounts to 5,610. If the national average applies 54% of those are female making the men 2,580, including children. An average of 16.6% of the population are under 16. I suspect for the Asian community with higher than average families that may be on the low side. That reduces the number of adult Asian men, including pensioners of course, to 2,152.

If there have indeed been 1,000 victims of Asian gangs over the last 40 years then it is deeply alarming to consider what proportion of that Asian, adult, male population may have had some involvement. It is very unlikely to be under 10%. It is equally concerning to consider whether the remainder really had no idea what was going on in their midst or simply looked the other way.

Of course it is true that society in general has not cared enough about these children. The failure to act by the authorities over that time is a disgrace and a national shame. But anyone who refuses to recognise that there is not a major problem with the cultural attitudes and behaviours of one of our minorities is simply not facing the facts.

Please don't say Asian. Nothing to do with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians, Zoroastrians or Atheists.

True or very largely true. If you strip those out of 3.3% the figure is likely to become even more alarming. In fact it is likely to be shocking.

SandyRentool said:

DavidL said:

According to Wiki Telford has 3.3% Asian population. In a town of 170k that amounts to 5,610. If the national average applies 54% of those are female making the men 2,580, including children. An average of 16.6% of the population are under 16. I suspect for the Asian community with higher than average families that may be on the low side. That reduces the number of adult Asian men, including pensioners of course, to 2,152.

If there have indeed been 1,000 victims of Asian gangs over the last 40 years then it is deeply alarming to consider what proportion of that Asian, adult, male population may have had some involvement. It is very unlikely to be under 10%. It is equally concerning to consider whether the remainder really had no idea what was going on in their midst or simply looked the other way.

Of course it is true that society in general has not cared enough about these children. The failure to act by the authorities over that time is a disgrace and a national shame. But anyone who refuses to recognise that there is not a major problem with the cultural attitudes and behaviours of one of our minorities is simply not facing the facts.

Please don't say Asian. Nothing to do with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians, Zoroastrians or Atheists.

Asia is a bloody huge place. If you say "asian" in the US, people expect you to mean./.. Chinese

brendan16 said:

DavidL said:

SandyRentool said:

DavidL said:

According to Wiki Telford has 3.3% Asian population. In a town of 170k that amounts to 5,610. If the national average applies 54% of those are female making the men 2,580, including children. An average of 16.6% of the population are under 16. I suspect for the Asian community with higher than average families that may be on the low side. That reduces the number of adult Asian men, including pensioners of course, to 2,152.

If there have indeed been 1,000 victims of Asian gangs over the last 40 years then it is deeply alarming to consider what proportion of that Asian, adult, male population may have had some involvement. It is very unlikely to be under 10%. It is equally concerning to consider whether the remainder really had no idea what was going on in their midst or simply looked the other way.

Of course it is true that society in general has not cared enough about these children. The failure to act by the authorities over that time is a disgrace and a national shame. But anyone who refuses to recognise that there is not a major problem with the cultural attitudes and behaviours of one of our minorities is simply not facing the facts.

Please don't say Asian. Nothing to do with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians, Zoroastrians or Atheists.

True or very largely true. If you strip those out of 3.3% the figure is likely to become even more alarming. In fact it is likely to be shocking.

The majority of the world's population lives in Asia - over 4 billion people. 'Asian' is therefore hardly a particularly targeted description is it? South Asian might be more targeted?

Wiki doesn't have the stats for that but that is really what we are looking for. I have not been able to find them on the Telford and Wrekin website either.

Bit out of date but in 2011 there were 2,243 Pakistani people living in Telford. Again, if 54% were women that puts the males at 1,031 and the adult males at 863.
http://www.telford.gov.uk/downloads/file/1503/2011_census_profile_telford_and_wrekin

May fingers Putin ....

May states that unless Russia responds by Wednesday she will conclude unlawful use of force was perpetrated by Russia against the UK

Jezza misjudges his reply.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Theresa May

Military grade nerve agent used and it is highly likely Russia was responsible

A Novichok agent ?

FFS Corbyn is so unfit to be PM it beggars belief.